# Racsism in pokemon



## AtomicPokabu (Jul 30, 2010)

hello thar I have been looking at pokemon for the past few weeks at racsism.I'm pretty sure that they were unintended,but I think they are pretty funny.
1.Black flute makes pokemon dissapear,but white flute attracts them.
2.Zekrom is better then Reshiram?(;))
3.Yea versions black and white...I know.
4.They didnt make light type (atleast not yet)
So yea if you have anything you found you want to add please add!


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## Green (Jul 30, 2010)

....how are those even /considered/ racism wtf was that


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## Autumn (Jul 30, 2010)

KronoGreen said:


> ....how are those even /considered/ racism wtf was that


this


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## Bombsii (Jul 30, 2010)

well...those aren't racist at all... i'd say the most unintentionally 'racist' thing in pokemon is brock.


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## Flora (Jul 30, 2010)

Firstly, spelling please. :(



AtomicPokabu said:


> 1.Black flute makes pokemon dissapear,but white flute attracts them.


Simple coincidence.



> 2.Zekrom is better then Reshiram?(;))


Your Mileage May Vary



> 3.Yea versions black and white...I know.


Black and white are _colors._

Well, rather the presence of all colors versus the absence of color, which makes them perfect for game counterparts.



> 4.They didnt make light type (atleast not yet)


I believe Dark-type was introduced solely because Psychic was overpowered. Also those two have nothing to do with racism.

As brought up time and time again (Jynx incident anyone?), there aren't many African-Americans over in Japan. I reject your reality and substitute my own.


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## Blastoise Fortooate (Jul 30, 2010)

> there aren't many African-Americans over in Japan.


well yeah they'd be mostly African-Japanese wouldn't they

But yeah the Dark-type is more like 'hurrdurr I stole your Dawn Stone' not 'durrhurr I'm black do u get it?'.


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## ultraviolet (Jul 31, 2010)

wow. the fact that you brought up the most unlikely things to be related to racism and ignored other things (like jynx, brock, etc) makes me wonder if you're actually being serious or if you just know fairly little of the pokemon fandom. o.o


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## Wargle (Jul 31, 2010)

The only things Racist were not meant to be.

Not many things are _meant_ to be racist. It is up to you whether you see it as racist or not.

And the Brock left the anime was because the Anime peoples thought everyone would be all 'OMG A SEMI BLACK PERSON THOSE RACIST BASTARDS NEVER PLAY POKEMON AGAIN!!! D:<' so they got rid of him for a white guy. Then they realized everybody liked Brock and ditched what'shisnameArtfreak.


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## RespectTheBlade (Jul 31, 2010)

the only semi-racist thing in pokemon is that, with the slight technicality of brock, I do not remember a black person, nor the option to choose your skin color.


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## spaekle (Jul 31, 2010)

You could choose your skin tone in PBR, although I think that was added for releases outside of Japan.


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## Thorne (Jul 31, 2010)

AtomicPokabu said:


> 3.Yea versions black and white...I know.


Yeah, because when you say Black and White you always mean the skin colours, not the colours (or rather, the lack and presence of all colours) black and white.

And you seem to forget that the games are made by the Japanese, who can be targets of racism as well, effectively rendering most point moot.


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## Minish (Jul 31, 2010)

Male Gardevoir said:


> And you seem to forget that the games are made by the Japanese, who can be targets of racism as well, effectively rendering most point moot.


Uh... _what_? Ethnocentric much? All races can be targets of racism, that's kind of the point. The Japanese actually have a notorious tendency to be generally quite xenophobic.

That being said, this thread is made of so much fail it's just... yeah. The only racist thing is the OP finding every mention of black/white/_dark_ to be referring to race.


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## Shiny Grimer (Jul 31, 2010)

Brock said:


> The only things Racist were not meant to be.
> 
> Not many things are _meant_ to be racist. It is up to you whether you see it as racist or not.


I don't know what  you mean with that first sentence. The only racist things are things that are unintentionally racist? Jim crow laws, anyone? What about slavery?

And even if something is not meant to be racist, it can still be racist.



> And you seem to forget that the games are made by the Japanese, who can be targets of racism as well, effectively rendering most point moot.


The Japanese are a majority in Japan. They are not targets of racism in Japan.
And yes, one minority can express bigotry against another. If Pokemon included a black woman that had *snaps fingers* attitude! and was always angry (and was drawn with stereotypically exaggerated features - because of course, all black people look the same!), it would still be racist even if it were made by the Ainu people of Japan.

But yeah, this topic lists concerns that really have nothing to do with race or racism.



> hello thar I have been looking at pokemon for the past few weeks at racsism.I'm pretty sure that they were unintended,but I think they are pretty funny.


You find (what you think is) unintentional racism _funny_? what is this i don't even


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## Minish (Aug 1, 2010)

... said:


> I don't know what  you mean with that first sentence. The only racist things are things that are unintentionally racist? Jim crow laws, anyone? What about slavery?
> 
> And even if something is not meant to be racist, it can still be racist.


I think he meant that in Pokemon, the only things that were racist were not intentional (or rather that there were no intentionally racist things in Pokemon), e.g. the whole Jynx thing.


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## Pwnemon (Aug 4, 2010)

I actually have learned to just completely ignore all this crap, as in my school you get called racist for saying you need a white sheet of paper. I mostly think that the people who accuse racism are mostly the racists themselves for seeing it where it isn't.


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## Superbird (Aug 4, 2010)

...I know him, he isn't racist, but he does have really weird opinions.


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## Wargle (Aug 5, 2010)

RespectTheBlade said:


> the only semi-racist thing in pokemon is that, with the slight technicality of brock, I do not remember a black person, nor the option to choose your skin color.


The Battle Arcade lady is either tan or somewhat african looking.



... said:


> I don't know what  you mean with that first sentence. The only racist things are things that are unintentionally racist? Jim crow laws, anyone? What about slavery?


l
l
V



Cirrus said:


> I think he meant that in Pokemon, the only things that were racist were not intentional (or rather that there were no intentionally racist things in Pokemon), e.g. the whole Jynx thing.


Yes that is what I meant sorry. I even confused myself there for a second.


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## nothing to see here (Aug 5, 2010)

> 4.They didnt make light type (atleast not yet)


Ignoring the whole racism thing for a moment, because the idea that _entire Pokémon types_ are race-based is just silly... there is absolutely no reason for there to be a Light type.  And unless Game Freak's programmers develop a habit of jumping over Sharpedos with jetskis, there will never be a Light-type.

First of all, the Dark type isn't a "darkness/shadows/night" type to begin with, despite what the name might suggest.  Ghost pretty much has all of that stuff--it has all the "dark is scary" attacks (like Astonish), "black magic" attacks (Curse, Grudge, Destiny Bond), attacks that involve literal shadows (Shadow Sneak/Shadow Punch), and even those that said to be "made of shadows/darkness" (Shadow Ball/Shadow Claw.)

The Dark-type is actually more of a "sneaky/dishonorable battle tactics" type.  That's why the type is mostly made up of moves like Thief, Knock Off, Sucker Punch, Fake Tears and so on.  Even Dark Pulse isn't a "darkness/shadow" based attack; it's just an energy blast (along the lines of Aura Sphere or Focus Blast) infused with negative thoughts.

Plus, Normal and Fighting pretty much cover the "opposite counterpart of the Dark-type" slot already.  The Normal type has all the healing and "nice" moves, as well as moves that are sneaky but not viewed in such a bad light because they're "cuter" or less menacing than their Dark-type equivalent (like Covet vs. Thief, or Me First vs. Snatch.)  The Fighting type has the honorable, martial-arts style fighting techniques, as opposed to fighting dirty and making up techniques as you go like Dark-types do.  So there's really no room for _another_ "opposite of Dark type" type.


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## Karkat Vantas (Aug 6, 2010)

Well, Aloe can be seen as a racist stereotype.

Pokemon Black and White aren't named after skin colors. Obviously, they're Michael Jackson references.


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## Pwnemon (Aug 6, 2010)

El Garbanzo said:


> Ignoring the whole racism thing for a moment, because the idea that _entire Pokémon types_ are race-based is just silly... there is absolutely no reason for there to be a Light type.  And unless Game Freak's programmers develop a habit of jumping over Sharpedos with jetskis, there will never be a Light-type.
> 
> First of all, the Dark type isn't a "darkness/shadows/night" type to begin with, despite what the name might suggest.  Ghost pretty much has all of that stuff--it has all the "dark is scary" attacks (like Astonish), "black magic" attacks (Curse, Grudge, Destiny Bond), attacks that involve literal shadows (Shadow Sneak/Shadow Punch), and even those that said to be "made of shadows/darkness" (Shadow Ball/Shadow Claw.)
> 
> ...


These are all great points, except low kick. That move is pretty sneaky.

Anyway, I just wanted to add to this, the actual Japanese translation of "Dark Type" is actually "Evil Type."


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## Forkster (Aug 12, 2010)

Me thinks you are trying too hard. And racism isn't racism unless its intentional. I think the lack of racial diversity in the Pokemon universe is due to the lack of racial diversity in Japan. Don't look too far into this.


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## Latimew (Aug 15, 2010)

None of that is racism... what are you saying?


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## Vipera Magnifica (Aug 15, 2010)

Uggghhhh.... The fact that you think that such things are "racist" bugs me as much as your spelling with the topic title.


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## Lord Mewtwo (Sep 10, 2010)

St. Christopher said:


> ....how are those even /considered/ racism wtf was that


I agree with this I do not see how these things are racism in fact I did not even understand them all probably because I do not watch the anime anymore(Haven't since the beginning of hoenn). 

As for the black and white flute thing black and white are often pitted against each other in a good vs. evil manner. Black represents darkness, shadows and even death while white represents heaven, healing, revelation, salvation, and much more. Although I am reading a vampire novel series that opened my knowledge to white also sometimes being associated with death but black is the more common representing color or absence of light I should say.

A light type could be interesting, I can somewhat see that. But I don't see how the lack of it's creation thus far represents any kind of discrimination. It simply has not been thought of yet.


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## Latias (Sep 10, 2010)

A light type is a horrible idea.

We already have THREE types that represent light:

Electric (sorta), Normal and Psychic.


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## 1. Luftballon (Sep 10, 2010)

and fire! and ice! and bug! and ampharos!


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## Latias (Sep 10, 2010)

I was thinking of the closest, really, but I suppose Fire counts.
And I said types. Not Pokemon.


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## Dannichu (Sep 10, 2010)

And Flying, if we go the "opposite of heavy" route! :D


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## 1. Luftballon (Sep 10, 2010)

nah, that honor goes to ghosts and the lake trio.


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## Lord Mewtwo (Sep 10, 2010)

Latias said:


> A light type is a horrible idea.
> 
> We already have THREE types that represent light:
> 
> Electric (sorta), Normal and Psychic.


Psychic does not represent light, in fact it's believed by religion that Psychic powers and witchcraft are of the devil.


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## 1. Luftballon (Sep 11, 2010)

Mewtwo's Amber said:


> religion


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## Lord Mewtwo (Sep 11, 2010)

I actually think I see the point you mean to make, and I realize that but it's still a pretty common belief. It's used on TV a lot when they think or know someone has special powers it's always 'They're evil!'.


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## ultraviolet (Sep 11, 2010)

> Psychic does not represent light, in fact it's believed by religion that Psychic powers and witchcraft are of the devil.


pokemon isn't religious, and your username, avatar and signature image are of mewtwo, so er


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## Lord Mewtwo (Sep 11, 2010)

ultraviolet said:


> pokemon isn't religious, and your username, avatar and signature image are of mewtwo, so er


I don't know that I would say that, they seem to have a few of their own fictional religious beliefs such as pokemon having created the universe and which ones. 

And what does my profile theme have to do with anything?


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## ultraviolet (Sep 11, 2010)

Mewtwo's Amber said:
			
		

> I don't know that I would say that, they seem to have a few of their own  fictional religious beliefs such as pokemon having created the universe  and which ones.
> 
> And what does my profile theme have to do with anything?


That's true, but I mean in the sense that I think the franchise itself doesn't aim to be religious, which is why I think it's silly when certain religious groups _do_ read into the psychic type being associated with witchcraft or satan. 

I actually misread your post as you saying _your _religion thought of the psychic type being associated with such things and thought it was ironic that you have Mewtwo, a psychic type all over your profile; I'm sorry, I guess I wasn't concentrating. xD


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## Lord Mewtwo (Sep 11, 2010)

ultraviolet said:


> That's true, but I mean in the sense that I think the franchise itself doesn't aim to be religious, which is why I think it's silly when certain religious groups _do_ read into the psychic type being associated with witchcraft or satan.
> 
> I actually misread your post as you saying _your _religion thought of the psychic type being associated with such things and thought it was ironic that you have Mewtwo, a psychic type all over your profile; I'm sorry, I guess I wasn't concentrating. xD


Ok I see, I am actually NOT religious. I believe in God but I don't go to church anymore except with my best friend to Christmas Eve service and I don't live by certain religious beliefs. I guess the basic way to express it, is that I believe in a God but I do not practice anything.

I actually do not believe in the association of psychic to the devil, but I have noticed that even in films that don't mention religion or contain any religious characters still seem to express the belief that special abilities are evil. Take the hallmark film 'The Good Witch' for example. New woman moves to town and strangely ironic things happen in her presence. Animals calm before her, a little girls mightmares of monsters vanish with a simple word of advise to tell herself not to dream of bunnies, and a woman whose husband and she were told by doctors were unable to get pregnant does when given a bottle of lavender scented oil from the new comer's shop. The town's mayor takes all this and convinces the town this woman is a witch and is evil. There is no religion whatsoever in this film neither expressed nor shown.

I will give you though that in the realistic sense you are correct about Pokemon not expressing real religion. But my point being that this does not mean it could still not regard something from it.


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## Rose (Jan 23, 2011)

AtomicPokabu said:


> 4.They didnt make light type (atleast not yet)


The TCG has light types. I know because I own legit Light Wigglytuff. I don't know if there are more light types, but there is at least that one.


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## JackPK (Jan 23, 2011)

jokersfeind said:


> The TCG has light types. I know because I own legit Light Wigglytuff. I don't know if there are more light types, but there is at least that one.


Ignoring the fact that the TCG isn't canon... those aren't a type, they're just a ill-conceived, ill-received, ill-translated flavor modification (akin to the "Gym Leader's POKéMON" cards) that only lasted one set before being thrown out the window.


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## Rose (Jan 23, 2011)

Jack_the_PumpkinKing said:


> Ignoring the fact that the TCG isn't canon... those aren't a type, they're just a ill-conceived, ill-received, ill-translated flavor modification (akin to the "Gym Leader's POKéMON" cards) that only lasted one set before being thrown out the window.


True, but the fact they are there still means something. To say that dark is a type based on a color would sound less likely then saying it's based on the childhood idea of light and dark symbolizing good and bad. I mean dark types are know mostly for attack, and nothing but attack. Something that uses dirty tricks, and cheap blows would be marked as bad in my book. To say that a dark type is something other then a psychological symbol is making an personal assumption. It's not as if all dark types look the same, nor are the confined to one type.


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## Aisling (Jan 23, 2011)

jokersfeind said:


> True, but the fact they are there still means something. To say that dark is a type based on a color would sound less likely then saying it's based on the childhood idea of light and dark symbolizing good and bad. I mean dark types are know mostly for attack, and nothing but attack. Something that uses dirty tricks, and cheap blows would be marked as bad in my book. To say that a dark type is something other then a psychological symbol is making an personal assumption. It's not as if all dark types look the same, nor are the confined to one type.


Dark and Light Pokemon are, actually, psychological aspects of the Pokemon on the card. That's why they were only in sets like Team Rocket (the fully evolved Pokemon of the TR set were Dark, influenced by their trainers) and Neo Destiny (their destinies were determined by how they were treated by their trainers).

So Dark Pokemon had cruel trainers and are not a _type_ (Dark Houndoom was a fire type, even, purposely to avoid confusion between disposition and type), and Light Pokemon had kind trainers and are, again, _not a type_.

So I'm not really sure what you're trying to argue here- are you still trying to say Light might actually exist as a type because of Light Pokemon cards or what?


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## Rose (Jan 23, 2011)

Alraune said:


> So I'm not really sure what you're trying to argue here- are you still trying to say Light might actually exist as a type because of Light Pokemon cards or what?


I am trying to say that dark pokemon as a actual type (not dark pokemon like the TCG) are just like saying bad. They aren't confined to one type, as in there are grass/dark types like Shiftry. When you say a pokemon is a water type, you normal think it is probably something that can dwell with or around water. To say something is a dark type means it is probably a pretty nasty costumer, and has more of an offense then it does a defense.

I am saying that after tossing TCG out the window it is a psychological connection with the person playing the game.


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## JackPK (Jan 23, 2011)

jokersfeind said:


> I am trying to say that dark pokemon as a actual type (not dark pokemon like the TCG) are just like saying bad. They aren't confined to one type, as in there are grass/dark types like Shiftry. When you say a pokemon is a water type, you normal think it is probably something that can dwell with or around water. To say something is a dark type means it is probably a pretty nasty costumer, and has more of an offense then it does a defense.


True, but as has been pointed out before in this thread, the opposite of that would not be a theoretical Light type, but the "honorable" tactics used by Fighting-type Pokemon.


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## Rose (Jan 23, 2011)

Jack_the_PumpkinKing said:


> True, but as has been pointed out before in this thread, the opposite of that would not be a theoretical Light type, but the "honorable" tactics used by Fighting-type Pokemon.


But some people don't think fighting is good, no matter how "honorable" the intentions. So most people agree that the tactics of a dark pokemon are pretty nasty, but every one has a different idea of what is good, so it would be difficult to classify a light type that all would agree with. To some psychic abilities to purge darkness would be considered light, and some would consider the fighting types "Honor" to be light. You could also argue that anything pure would be light, but that would be tied to at least one pokemon from all the types. Dark is much easier to classify, and so it was easier to stick on.


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## Pwnemon (Jan 25, 2011)

Jack_the_PumpkinKing said:


> True, but as has been pointed out before in this thread, the opposite of that would not be a theoretical Light type, but the "honorable" tactics used by Fighting-type Pokemon.


and as I've pointed out once before, Low Kick is a fighting type move.


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## Chief Zackrai (Jan 25, 2011)

You're taking the words "Low kick" too seriously. A low kick is merely a kicking strike below one's torso, not specifically under the belt/ in the groin area. Also, if you watch the animation from the game (HINT HINT) it's more like a ankle sweep anyway, which is why weight matters. And even if you look past those things, a kick that is aimed low _isn't_ really all that sneaky unless it is aimed inappropriately. Think about it. Have you ever kicked/been kicked by someone in the shin? _That's_ a low kick. Is it sneaky/dishonorable? Not really.


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## Gryzalb (Jan 25, 2011)

...As for the fighting-types being "honorable" argument, I think you're all forgetting about Croagunk and Toxicroak, who are explicitly claimed to fight dirtily in the games. I'm pretty sure Fighting-types being honorable is looking too far into it because of that: maybe Fighting-types are just Pokémon who are very skilled in hand-to-hand combat and martial arts? I would say that the new Pokémon Scraggy and Scrafty count, but they're part Dark-type as well and thus are a bit ambivalent.

Primeape is another borderline case: I'm pretty sure that Primeape do not fight fairly nor are honorable considering almost all they ever do is get into rages and attack everything in sight.


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## Lord of the Fireflies (Jan 30, 2011)

aren't you kinda paranoid


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## Alexi (Feb 18, 2011)

How 'bout we turn this discussion around?

How would racism work in the Pokemon universe? Would it depend on your birth-region (those born in Kanto are treated terribly in Hoenn and the like) which isn't strictly _racism,_ but just general segregation and maltreatment...


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## Melanie (Feb 18, 2011)

Alexi said:


> How 'bout we turn this discussion around?
> 
> How would racism work in the Pokemon universe? Would it depend on your birth-region (those born in Kanto are treated terribly in Hoenn and the like) which isn't strictly _racism,_ but just general segregation and maltreatment...


That reminds me, I think in FireRed and LeafGreen some biker gang thinks they're superior because you're from Kanto. And I believe someone in Crystal calls you a "Johto punk".

It's been years since I played that far in either game, though, so I could be wrong.


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## Spatz (Feb 19, 2011)

It remains in HG/SS. 

It seems that bikers from Kanto (are only in Kanto) believe that trainers from Johto aren't strong, racism? Not likely, more of a personal belief (as far as a programmed to have like 4 phrases NPC can be)


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## JackPK (Feb 19, 2011)

Probably not so much racism as elitism/country stereotypes along the lines of the attitude the US has toward Canada, since every character in the games pre-Unova is white.


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## Spatz (Feb 19, 2011)

Jack_the_PumpkinKing said:


> Probably not so much racism as elitism/country stereotypes along the lines of the attitude the US has toward Canada, *since every character in the games pre-Unova is white*.


Brock, Battle Pike Queen Lucy.

Two examples of not white.

just sayin, without being a martial-arts master alien.


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## Pwnemon (Feb 19, 2011)

Every hiker ever.


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## Squornshellous Beta (Feb 19, 2011)

Nah, they're suntanned from all their time in the great outdoors.

Also Pokémon Battle Revolution.


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## hopeandjoy (Feb 19, 2011)

But that was added in for international release.


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## Time Psyduck (Feb 20, 2011)

The bikers are displaying regional stereotypes, in the same way that someone from the north of a country may think of people from the south as being (say) 'soft' or 'stupid'. Since nearly everyone in gen I-IV is presumably Japanese, it's not really racism.

If there was going to be a show of racism in-game, it's likely to show up in Black/White, where a) there's a more ethnically diverse population and b) the region is based on a different country to (and is supposedly very far from) the previous regions.


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## Rainbow Dash (Feb 20, 2011)

hah, I haven't noticed any Racism at all in Pokemon in many years or maybe never. (:


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## sv_01 (Feb 21, 2011)

Bombsii said:


> well...those aren't racist at all... i'd say the most unintentionally 'racist' thing in pokemon is brock.


That's not racist because he is a main character and a good guy. It's more like anti-racist. There's not even a problem with the fact that he is a comic relief character because in Pokémon, all main characters are partly comic relief.

The Jynx cause is illogical. It seems like those people can't see that it's got _straight blonde_ hair and it's an _Ice_ type. I don't see any stereotypes in that, except for maybe something related to the Northern Europe.

And about stuff like B/W or the Dark type, that would be like thinking that they made Kyogre blue because of these things. Black and White mean Yin and Yang, you know.


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## JackPK (Feb 21, 2011)

sv_01 said:


> The Jynx cause is illogical. It seems like those people can't see that it's got _straight blonde_ hair and it's an _Ice_ type. I don't see any stereotypes in that, except for maybe something related to the Northern Europe.


I agree with you that the anti-Jynx movement wasn't very logical, but IIRC Jynx was based on Japanese fashion movements called kogal and ganguro from the '80s-'90s in which girls would dye their hair platinum blonde (or use wigs) and overtan themselves. Nintendo just combined that with a yuki-onna (Japanese snow demon) to get Jynx. It's mentioned in the On the Origin of Species column on Bulbanews.


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## sv_01 (Feb 22, 2011)

RedRum said:


> Psychic does not represent light, in fact it's believed by religion that Psychic powers and witchcraft are of the devil.


Sure, that might be represented by Hypno, Exeggcute, Alakazam and Mewtwo, but  some Psychic Pokémon do represent light. Think of Espeon, which evolves from Eevee when it's happy at daytime, Gallade and Gardevoir who protect their trainers (and loved ones) with their lives, and Cresselia, the guardian of dreams and the opposite of Darkrai. Wha has this to do with the devil or something?


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## surskitty (Feb 22, 2011)

I would really like to know why there is a discussion on ~racism in Pokémon~ that has not brought up, say, Aloe.


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## sv_01 (Mar 3, 2011)

enekoiru said:


> I would really like to know why there is a discussion on ~racism in Pokémon~ that has not brought up, say, Aloe.


Do you think that any story that has a character with a different skin color is racist? Especially if nobody notices this difference? That happens with some main characters in Star Trek and some that are not main, but Star Trek's idea is basically the opposite of racism. The answer to your question is probably something very similar.


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## surskitty (Mar 3, 2011)

No.  I do think modelling a character off of Aunt Jemima while everyone calls her "Mama" regardless of actual relation is, however.


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## JackPK (Mar 3, 2011)

I'll reserve judgment on Aloe/Lenora until I see the English localization of her. Japan has a wildly different interpretation of what is and is not racism and, although that doesn't excuse it, I think the big issue is whether or not TPCi has learned from the Jynx debacle and changes it before it becomes a big deal (which I think they will, given how even in Japan they changed her character art because of the racism issue).

This is kind of a two-sided coin and I'm going to get lambasted for commenting on it either way, probably, but the way I see it: Japan has a totally different idea of racism and, while that doesn't mean it isn't racism, it does mean that we can't expect them to use the American standard instead. (To argue something of a straw man version of my argument, how would you like it if some aliens came along in their spaceship and said, "In our culture it's taboo to clothe the feet. You wear shoes. Therefore you are sinners and we must destroy you.") The way it's localized matters, the way it was originally doesn't so much.

I think I just used 2 paragraphs to say what could be easily summed up in a single sentence.


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## surskitty (Mar 3, 2011)

Lenora seems to be fine!  (I've been looking through the script most of the day.)  But Aloe is still really, really gross.

Japan has a totally different idea of racism, yes; their idea seems to be it's not really an issue.  Hence things like trying to get people who have lived in Japan for generations to move "back" to Brazil.  Or Korea, but I haven't heard of the government trying to bribe Korean-Japanese people to move to Korea.

Pokémon is a multinational franchise; I feel it's completely reasonable to expect better.


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## JackPK (Mar 3, 2011)

Pokemon is a multinational franchise like the Simpsons is a multinational franchise: yes, it's multinational, but on the other hand, it's very firmly based in a single country (Japan/USA respectively) and the makers are probably not going to go very far to cater to international markets* (except when they've already had an established precedent of doing so, like with legendary names in Pokemon).

Would you be offended if you were an Indian Hindu and saw Bart Simpson eating a hamburger**? Of course not; it's a cultural thing. You'd probably disapprove and say "oh those horrible savage Americans, eating cows" but (hopefully) you'd understand that they aren't catering to you because you're not their native target. Same for the Japanese versions of Pokemon. It just happens that America is hypersensitive about racism because of our history. I'd be interested in what someone from, say, England has to say about this.

(I'm not trying to deny that Aloe is offensive; I'm just saying, it doesn't have anything to do with America so why should we even care.)

* At least, in the original incarnation of the product. Translations and region-specific merchandising doesn't count toward my point because the original creators don't usually control them (or if they do, it's mainly in an approve/disapprove capacity and not in actual creative work).

** Maybe a more wordy but also more apt comparison would be something like, Would you be offended if you were an Indian Hindu and saw the Hindi translation of Bart Simpson eating what he says is a chicken sandwich and then looked up the original English and found out it was originally a hamburger?


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## surskitty (Mar 3, 2011)

Slight bit of a difference between eating a hamburger and using racial stereotypes!

For Pokémon Black and White, they very clearly spent a lot of time trying to get the random not-Japanese right.  There is a lot of English and Spanish and French and German and Italian in this game!  There are a few Americans on the staff!  _There are two different shows in-game focusing on learning English_!  (One for English in general, one for Pokémon names.)  I would be _very surprised_ if they weren't considering the possibility that people not ethnically Japanese might play this game _in Japanese_!

Hell, even most of the non-white and non-Japanese characters are pretty much fine!  ... Okay, it's incredibly questionable that the only definitely non-Japanese and non-white trainer type's kind of breakdancing, but they're polite and reasonable and pretty much not stereotypical even if.  Well.  Only clearly black generic trainer type.

There is no good excuse for Aloe.  Also, as far as I know, they didn't change her character design when they changed her to Lenora, though I haven't checked the BW sprites.  So.  Still Aunt Jemima, even if they fixed the dialogue relating to her.


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## Tailsy (Mar 3, 2011)

Hello, I am from Scotland! Scotland's population is 98.7% white.

Aloe is kind of ridiculous and it weirds me out. I care! Just because my country used to like kicking around its non-white colonies does not mean I don't find stereotyping and racism upsetting. Maybe it's because I get othered _constantly_ as well, even as a white, cisgendered, straight, able-bodied, middle-class female - I am Scottish, so I must be [this] and think [that], and be incomprehensible and stupid to boot! I find Groundskeeper Willie's portrayal in The Simpsons *intensely* grating.


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## surskitty (Mar 3, 2011)

I think what bothers me most about Aloe is that I can't write her off as a goddamn mammy stereotype.  She _is_ and that's ... I expect better.  But she's also fucking badass and she's the resident fossil nerd and so on and so forth.  It's ridiculous that her Japanese trainer title is NATURAL-BORN MAMA.  ... Lenora's 'An Archaeologist with Backbone'.

I'm not even sure why they decided to resort to the mammy stereotype.  They put enough thought into her to make her an interesting character, and then somebody decided that everyone needed to call her 'mama' and she would look like Aunt Jemima.  If English BW didn't change her sprite, I will write letters.


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## Mallory (Mar 4, 2011)

It's really sort of sad when we have someone pointing these kinds of fingers at something like /Pokemon/.


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## Abwayax (Mar 5, 2011)

Jack_the_PumpkinKing said:


> Would you be offended if you were an Indian Hindu and saw Bart Simpson eating a hamburger**? Of course not; it's a cultural thing.


I think a better comparison would be the Kwik-e-mart guy, who apparently _is_ considered offensive by some people of Indian ancestry.


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