# I'd like to learn a language.



## Espeon (Jul 15, 2010)

I've been thinking about whether I should or not for a while however, while the idea of being completely fluent in another language really captivates me, I really need to decide on one language and dedicate myself to this one language. I usually decide I'll learn something, give up halfway through, then I'll pick up another language. I just end up knowing a couple of random sentences in other languages as a result.

One of the main problems I find is that I often lack opportunities to practise speaking the said language I want to learn. I had thought about learning Norwegian but, with no-one to practise it with and with no connection to the country, I'd probably lose motivation very quickly.

Which language should I learn?


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## Ruby (Jul 15, 2010)

Not Norwegian.


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## Espeon (Jul 15, 2010)

Why not Norwegian?
And what would you suggest alternatively then?


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## Barubu (Jul 15, 2010)

I'd go with spanish.


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## Espeon (Jul 15, 2010)

Spanish would be a better option were I living in the US. I live in the UK so it's probably better to learn French but, I did French at school and it's really put me off of that language for life.

Plus Spanish, along with German and French, were the three bog standard languages offered at school.


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## Barubu (Jul 15, 2010)

German?


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## 1. Luftballon (Jul 15, 2010)

chinese. but don't let anyone get into the peculiarities of the dialects related languages without army and navy.

it's an _interesting_ experience.


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## Espeon (Jul 15, 2010)

An interesting experience is what I'd be looking for. Chinese sounds fun, but weve stopped getting Chinese lodgers. :(

I'd probably learn Mandarin if any form of Chinese.


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## Diz (Jul 16, 2010)

I'd suggest Spanish as well, because it is pretty easy for English speakers to learn, if you understand the idea of conjugating verbs. Also cognates.

If you have some background in French from school it is even easier because the two are very similar.


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## departuresong (Jul 16, 2010)

Well, what do you want to accomplish? German or a Romance language would be easy, sure, but you wouldn't really be pushing yourself very much.


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## Music Dragon (Jul 16, 2010)

I think Mandarin seems like a good idea, actually. Challenging, different, and very useful.

Also, if school put you off French for life, you might be glad to know that Chinese is basically its exact opposite. Grammar is, for the most part, ridiculously simple; pronunciation and vocabulary are what you'll have to work on.


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## Tarvos (Jul 16, 2010)

Try Russian.


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## Fireworks (Jul 16, 2010)

departuresong said:


> German or a Romance language would be easy


I find it ironic you say German is easy when you've claimed you had been studying it for 4 years, yet after I had posted in German on your lastfm you said you're still shit at writing in that language. (no offense, just couldn't resist)

Speaking from personal experience, German isn't really easy to learn at all, but it can pay off well since it's one of the most used languages in Europe besides English, so it can be very useful when looking for a job, and it's likely to come in handy more often than knowing Norwegian or something; it's also much easier to find practice partners, and it's even a quite beautiful language tbh. Since you dislike French, I'd say go for German.


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## goldenquagsire (Jul 16, 2010)

Espeon said:


> Plus Spanish, along with German and French, were the three bog standard languages offered at school.


with all due respect, none of those are 'bog standard languages'. they're three of the most widely-spoken Western languages (whether as a first or a second language). they're also probably the most relevant to a British student - it's a fair bet that the majority of your classmates will encounter situations when those three languages would be useful (whether on holiday, studying abroad or through emigration) rather than something like Hindi or Swahili.


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## Sage Noctowl (Jul 16, 2010)

Greek?  It doesn't seem _too_ hard since you already know a ton of English words coming from Greek.


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## Storm Earth and Fire (Jul 16, 2010)

Watershed said:


> Try Russian.


I tried Russian once, and it was actually fun. Now I just need to find a formal class, they always claim to offer them at the local community college and then they disappear. But yeah, Russian isn't a bad choice.

Speaking Chinese is really easy (coming from a native speaker here), but writing Chinese is not so easy.

Spanish is easy. If it were up to me, I'd learn something crazier.

I am learning Japanese right now, and it's not too bad so far. The alphabet is throwing me, but I think that's because I'm old. I found the vocabularly and pronounciations easy enough.

Anyway, just find something you like. I personally don't pick languages I want to study because they're useful, I pick them for completely arbitrary reasons.


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## hopeandjoy (Jul 16, 2010)

Basic Japanese isn't too bad. Most of my problems with it stem from pronunciation and not speaking fast enough, but those can be practiced.

Of course, who knows what will happen once I get to Kanji and complex grammar.

Basic Latin also isn't too bad and you already know some words without realizing it. Where it gets funky is the fact that not only do you have to conjugate verbs, but you also have to decline nouns, pronouns, and adjectives.

And I mean more than just dealing with plurals here. Here's a sample of declension # 1 using the word _puella_, "girl":

       |S           |       Pl
nom |puella      |     puellae
gen |puellae     |     puellarum
dat |puella (long a)| puellis
acc |puellam   |     puellas
abl  |puella (long a)| puellis


That's not everything, mind you. And there's four more.


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## goldenquagsire (Jul 16, 2010)

if you do learn Japanese then for god's sake don't tell anyone about it until you're near-fluent. otherwise you _will_ be branded as a weeaboo.

also do remember that there is an entire body of history, literature, music and culture utterly distinct from anime and manga in the same way that no-one would base their knowledge of American culture off _Batman_.


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## departuresong (Jul 16, 2010)

Squarewalker said:


> I find it ironic you say German is easy when you've claimed you had been studying it for 4 years, yet after I had posted in German on your lastfm you said you're still shit at writing in that language. (no offense, just couldn't resist)


Now just think about what it would be like if I were learning Mandarin or Russian!


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## goldenquagsire (Jul 16, 2010)

also, forgot to mention but



> I did French at school and it's really put me off of that language for life.


a teacher can make or break a language. I loved German until last year, when we got the most appallingly horrible man for a teacher. although he clearly loved his subject and taught us to a very high standard, he was such an unpleasant person to be around that I've given it up for my final year.

conversely, a series of uninspired French teachers made me dislike the subject until I got my last teacher for GCSE, who was pretty awesome and made it more interesting to study and meant that I was rather sad when I had to give it up for AS-level.

moral of the story: don't totally write off French just because of a bad experience in school!

and honestly, French is a very useful language. it's easier to find people to practice with in this country, France is our closest neighbour geographically, and French has such a utility - not just in the developed world (Canada, France, Switzerland, etc.), but if third world countries are your thing then it's widely-spoken in Africa, Asia and, iirc, some parts of the West Indies. by comparison, learning Russian, Mandarin or Japanese would bring pretty limited benefits.


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## Shiny Grimer (Jul 16, 2010)

What are your interests? What do you like to do?

You don't need to speak with Norwegian speakers in real life. Are there any books in Norwegian you'd be interested in reading? Movies? I don't speak with any Russians in real life but I still find opportunities to use Russian every day.

The most important thing, I think, is to pick a language that will keep you motivated. Since it seems that part of your motivation is speaking to people in that language, look at what languages are widely spoken around you. I hear there's a lot of people that speak Urdu in the U.K. - these are both Indo-European languages (in the same overall family as English, Spanish, Russian) so they'll have some familiar features but they're still different enough to be exciting. Plus, if you learn Urdu, you'll be able to understand a lot of Hindi. The Hindi used on TV has more Sanskrit-derived vocabulary than Urdu does, so if you learn Urdu then Hindi is a matter of vocabulary. Plus, Urdu has a lot of Persian and Arabic vocabulary, so it could give you a leg up on Persian (Arabic is very difficult and I would not recommend it as a first foreign language for anyone speaking an IE language).

If you go to Hindi, then you would learn a lot of Sanskrit vocabulary. This would be useful if you ever wanted to learn any of the languages of Southeast Asia - I hear that a lot of their higher vocabulary is derived from Sanskrit, so it would be another advantage.

So yeah, I think Urdu/Hindi would be awesome. If you know any speakers around you, it would be even better. Interesting cultures, all of Bollywood at your disposal, and cool scripts... ;) What more could you want?

Of course, this is assuming there's many Urdu or Hindi speakers near you. Do some research into this - what language (other than English) do people near you speak a lot? I hear that some parts of the U.K. have a lot of Polish speakers. Polish is cool... but difficult. I find it more difficult than Russian.

Also, I personally wouldn't go with Mandarin for the first foreign language to study. It could work for you (it worked for Barry Farber) but it's quite difficult in many ways - the characters, the pronunciation, the completely foreign vocabulary, the grammar which, although simple, is not just like English... Mandarin is a lifetime devotion. If you want to see progress quickly, I think Mandarin is the worst you could do if you only speak English. If you already knew another language and knew what to expect from the language learning process, then I think Mandarin could be a good challenge.

tl;dr: what languages are spoken around you? what cultures do you have an interest in? how much time are you willing to dedicate to this language?

(If you can't tell, I'm really into languages.)



> by comparison, learning Russian, Mandarin or Japanese would bring pretty limited benefits.


Russian is a lingua franca in, well, Russia, which is the largest country on Earth and covers an astounding range of cultures, geography... plus you can travel through the central asian republics (more people speak russian than kazakh in kazakhstan) and russian is pretty useful in parts of eastern europe (Ukraine, Belarus).


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## goldenquagsire (Jul 16, 2010)

... said:


> Russian is a lingua franca in, well, Russia, which is the largest country on Earth and covers an astounding range of cultures, geography... plus you can travel through the central asian republics (more people speak russian than kazakh in kazakhstan) and russian is pretty useful in parts of eastern europe (Ukraine, Belarus).


Russia might be large, but lots of it is literally uninhabitable.

and central asia is... a pretty unsafe region to visit. like, they still practice genocide and stuff.


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## Tarvos (Jul 16, 2010)

Russian in general is a big lingua franca to know. Russian is always useful. Arabic is another one.

Also Russian is a general aid to learn any Slavic language.


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## Dannichu (Jul 16, 2010)

How about sign language? It's widely offered, you're statistically more likely to come across someone who can do sign language than, say, Russian, and it looks brilliant on a CV.


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## Espeon (Jul 17, 2010)

Well, I was put off of French for life when I was branded as good at it. As a result I got put on an accelerated course and somehow ended up taking AS French in year 11, which I subsequently dropped and just did additional music instead. My school is considered a languages college, or something along those lines, so we always had languages forcefully shoved our way. :(

Polish would be alright to learn. My mother speaks Polish, so I'd have someone to talk to, definitely. In my home town, we have a large population of just about every ethnic minority and over 100 different languages are spoken. According to Wikipedia, it's unrivalled in the world with regards to the number of languages spoken within one town. But hey, what does Wikipedia know? :P



			
				... said:
			
		

> What are your interests? What do you like to do?


Well, _hopefully_ (if my grades are good enough, but they really won't be), I aim to go to University to study Veterinary Medicine. So my aim is really to learn a lanugage which would be useful in speaking to other people from other cultures who's pets seek medical attention.

Hence, having something to stick on my CV would be nice, which does really put sign language, Polish, Arabic, Hindi and Urdu quite high on my agenda. (Plus learning Hindi gives me an excuse to watch Bollywood. :X)
I also have a friend who speaks Hindi, which is very fortunate. :3

Sign language is literally putting English into actions, isn't it? So it could be possible to learn it on top of a foreign language.

With regard to hobbies/interests, I guess you could literally categorise them into music, science and animals. School's finishedfinished, and I have no place at University this year, so I right now I have every second of my free time to dedicate to learning a language.


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## Wargle (Jul 17, 2010)

I'd recomend mein Deustch ((German)), Russian, Icelandic, or Kanji.

And who needs Latin? What do you plan on doing? Throwing a party for Ancient Rome?
English is already a lot of Latin.

I say Kanji or some other form of Japanese. It is very helpfull. But I love doing Deustch classes because there is always some other thing you never knew before.


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## Shiny Grimer (Jul 17, 2010)

Espeon said:


> Well, I was put off of French for life when I was branded as good at it. As a result I got put on an accelerated course and somehow ended up taking AS French in year 11, which I subsequently dropped and just did additional music instead. My school is considered a languages college, or something along those lines, so we always had languages forcefully shoved our way. :(


That's a shame because French is really a lovely language. :( Don't let school let you down! I also took French in school and I was put off by it for a while, but 



> Polish would be alright to learn. My mother speaks Polish, so I'd have someone to talk to, definitely.


If your mother speaks Polish, then that's a great opportunity to practice Polish. Plus, I'm guessing there might be other family relatives pleased if you were learning Polish?



> In my home town, we have a large population of just about every ethnic minority and over 100 different languages are spoken. According to Wikipedia, it's unrivalled in the world with regards to the number of languages spoken within one town. But hey, what does Wikipedia know? :P


Are you living in New York? ;)




> Well, _hopefully_ (if my grades are good enough, but they really won't be), I aim to go to University to study Veterinary Medicine. So my aim is really to learn a lanugage which would be useful in speaking to other people from other cultures who's pets seek medical attention.
> 
> Hence, having something to stick on my CV would be nice, which does really put sign language, Polish, Arabic, Hindi and Urdu quite high on my agenda. (Plus learning Hindi gives me an excuse to watch Bollywood. :X)
> I also have a friend who speaks Hindi, which is very fortunate. :3


If you have a friend who speaks Hindi, that's great (and if you like Bollywood, even better). I think Hindi/Urdu would be also a good option for you.



> Sign language is literally putting English into actions, isn't it? So it could be possible to learn it on top of a foreign language.


I don't know how British Sign Language works, but American Sign Language has a different grammar from English. Not radically different, I think, but definitely different. It is it's own language, not just signed English.



> With regard to hobbies/interests, I guess you could literally categorise them into music, science and animals. School's finishedfinished, and I have no place at University this year, so I right now I have every second of my free time to dedicate to learning a language.


The reason I ask for this is because you'd probably want a language you could use for your interests too. For example, there are a lot of papers on rocket science being published in Russian (or so I heard) so if your interests included rocket science, Russian could be a rewarding language.



> I'd recomend mein Deustch ((German)), Russian, Icelandic, or Kanji. [...] I say Kanji or some other form of Japanese. It is very helpfull.


Kanji is not a language. Kanji are Chinese characters in Japanese. It is not a form of Japanese.



> And who needs Latin? What do you plan on doing? Throwing a party for Ancient Rome?
> English is already a lot of Latin.


If you want to read Latin, you obviously have to study Latin. Plus, knowing Latin is useful if you want to be a historical linguist, and traditionally people wanting to specialize in the Romance languages learned Latin. It's personally not my thing, but Latin isn't useless.

Also, why Icelandic? At least Latin has a lot of resources for learning it and once you learn Latin there is a lot of stuff to read. Finding resources for Icelandic is difficult - at the very least, your local bookstore will probably not have any Icelandic dictionaries or grammars. Icelandic is also difficult to learn (or so I heard). I'd love to study Icelandic, but I certainly wouldn't recommend it to someone learning their first language on their own.


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## Espeon (Jul 17, 2010)

Noooo, I live in the UK. I am British. Here, we have real York. Not fake York. :(
Also, I thought New York was a city, not a town? :x

Maybe Hindi, then. Or Polish. I could always to two. I have no interestin rocket science, unfortunately. Mainly biological sciences and veterinary science.


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## Wargle (Jul 17, 2010)

... said:


> Kanji is not a language. Kanji are Chinese characters in Japanese. It is not a form of Japanese.
> 
> 
> Also, why Icelandic? At least Latin has a lot of resources for learning it and once you learn Latin there is a lot of stuff to read. Finding resources for Icelandic is difficult - at the very least, your local bookstore will probably not have any Icelandic dictionaries or grammars. Icelandic is also difficult to learn (or so I heard). I'd love to study Icelandic, but I certainly wouldn't recommend it to someone learning their first language on their own.


Hur.

Over here in my area of the States, they teach us that there are a few different kinds of Japanese, Kanji, Katanka((unsure if that is correct name, they screw pronounciation of it up so badly)), and some other form that escapses me at the moment.

And my local bookstore has Icelandic books and stuff. Don't they all? They should.


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## Zuu (Jul 17, 2010)

what the fuck? they're probably talking about the three alphabets, Kanji, Katakana, and Hiragana. christ, where do you live?


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## Shiny Grimer (Jul 17, 2010)

Espeon said:


> Noooo, I live in the UK. I am British. Here, we have real York. Not fake York. :(
> Also, I thought New York was a city, not a town? :x


I know you do; that's why I added the ";)".
And New York is a city, but I'd never heard about the most linguistically diverse town and thought "Well that's interesting because NYC is the most diverse city. Wonder what the town is?"

And it's not fake; it's _new_ and _improved_.

is it bedford? :z



> Maybe Hindi, then. Or Polish. I could always to two. I have no interestin rocket science, unfortunately. Mainly biological sciences and veterinary science.


I mentioned Russian and rocket science as a random example. I'm trying to find what kind of languages would be useful for biology and veterinarian...cy.



> Hur.
> 
> Over here in my area of the States, they teach us that there are a few different kinds of Japanese, Kanji, Katanka((unsure if that is correct name, they screw pronounciation of it up so badly)), and some other form that escapses me at the moment.


I think they meant writing systems. Hiragana, Katakana, and Kanji. All three are used in Japanese.



> And my local bookstore has Icelandic books and stuff. Don't they all? They should.


A B&N near me has a pocket Burmese dictionary and a Borders around here once had a Teach Yourself Icelandic course that I was dying to buy (it has since been bought by someone :( ). There's a used book store that has a Colloquial Hungarian course. However, Icelandic resources are very scarce here.


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## Wargle (Jul 17, 2010)

Dezzuu said:


> what the fuck? they're probably talking about the three alphabets, Kanji, Katakana, and Hiragana. christ, where do you live?


Ah that's what they were talking about. I must have misunderstood.


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## Music Dragon (Jul 17, 2010)

Brock said:


> And who needs Latin? What do you plan on doing? Throwing a party for Ancient Rome?


Or maybe becoming a jurist, or a physician, or a linguist (not that Espeon seems like the kind of person who would ever take an interest in languages or become a veterinarian).


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## Tarvos (Jul 17, 2010)

I want to study a language as well, but I can't pick any.

Note:

I've studied five languages already: Dutch (native), English (fluent), German (reasonable), French (mediocre speaking/listening, written French comprehension is good), Latin (forgotten most of this since you only ever learn to read Latin and translate it)

Things I'm looking at are any Scandinavian language (doesn't matter which since if you know one you pretty much understand them all, I gather), Portuguese, Russian, Arabic, and modern Greek.

I don't want to do Spanish, I know that would be more useful most likely but I fucken hate the sound of Spanish. Italian would similarly be not enough of a challenge to learn because I understand French and Latin.


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## IcySapphire (Jul 17, 2010)

If you're interested in music, you could try Italian...


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## Superbird (Jul 17, 2010)

... said:
			
		

> Also, why Icelandic? At least Latin has a lot of resources for learning it and once you learn Latin there is a lot of stuff to read. Finding resources for Icelandic is difficult - at the very least, your local bookstore will probably not have any Icelandic dictionaries or grammars. Icelandic is also difficult to learn (or so I heard). I'd love to study Icelandic, but I certainly wouldn't recommend it to someone learning their first language on their own.


She could talk to Butterfree?



			
				IcySapphire said:
			
		

> If you're interested in music, you could try Italian...


I play music, and without even trying, I've memorized about 95% of the Italian terms commonly used in music. Besides, certain headings and other notations are in various languages like German and French.

While my knowledge on the subject isn't the best, I think that Latin is a base for many romance languages. If you want to go all around, I'd suggest that. Then again, I don't really know much about this stuff.


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## opaltiger (Jul 17, 2010)

Brock said:


> English is already a lot of Latin.


What. English shares an alphabet and often borrows roots/prefixes/etc., but Latin grammar is completely different - not to mention several orders of magnitude more complex.


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## Shiny Grimer (Jul 18, 2010)

Watershed said:


> Things I'm looking at are any Scandinavian language (doesn't matter which since if you know one you pretty much understand them all, I gather), Portuguese [...].
> 
> I don't want to do Spanish, I know that would be more useful most likely but I fucken hate the sound of Spanish. Italian would similarly be not enough of a challenge to learn because I understand French and Latin.


Why Portuguese, then? You say that Italian would be too easy - wouldn't Portuguese as well?

And any of the Scandinavian languages would be way too easy, seeing as you already know three Germanic languages (and German, I've heard, gives you a huge lead on Swedish vocabulary) and the grammar is really simple.

As for the sound of Spanish, well different strokes for different folks. :P What kind of Portuguese were you interested in?


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## Espeon (Jul 18, 2010)

... said:


> I know you do; that's why I added the ";)".
> And New York is a city, but I'd never heard about the most linguistically diverse town and thought "Well that's interesting because NYC is the most diverse city. Wonder what the town is?"
> 
> And it's not fake; it's _new_ and _improved_.
> ...


Improved is a far stretch. :P
I'd have to look at both in detail to make a fair comparison. I'd like to go to New York some time so I can look around.

No. Reading.



... said:


> I mentioned Russian and rocket science as a random example. I'm trying to find what kind of languages would be useful for biology and veterinarian...cy.


To be honest, probably the more commonly spoken languages for my area would be better. So again, just about anything works but the most common ones I hear are Polish and Indian languages.



... said:


> A B&N near me has a pocket Burmese dictionary and a Borders around here once had a Teach Yourself Icelandic course that I was dying to buy (it has since been bought by someone :( ). There's a used book store that has a Colloquial Hungarian course. However, Icelandic resources are very scarce here.


I once downloaded a "Colloquial Icelandic" thingy off of the internet for fun. Never used it though.



superbird said:


> She could talk to Butterfree?


..._She?_
I did once ask Butterfree to teach me a small portion of Icelandic. We got about as far as telling people that they needed help. Should have carried on but I was afraid of being a pest. :x


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## Shiny Grimer (Jul 19, 2010)

Espeon said:


> Improved is a far stretch. :P
> I'd have to look at both in detail to make a fair comparison. I'd like to go to New York some time so I can look around.





> No. Reading.


Darn! My investigative skills need sharpening. :/




> To be honest, probably the more commonly spoken languages for my area would be better. So again, just about anything works but the most common ones I hear are Polish and Indian languages.


Yeah, I've come to the conclusion that the only language that's really useful for biology is English. And _maybe_ Latin since there are a lot of Latin terms, but these can probably be assimilated as English words. So yeah, you're better off going with languages spoken in your area.



> I once downloaded a "Colloquial Icelandic" thingy off of the internet for fun. Never used it though.


You can probably find resources for Polish/Hindi/Urdu on the internet quite easily. I can definitely recommend a few for Hindi/Urdu *cough*. And probably some for Polish.



> I did once ask Butterfree to teach me a small portion of Icelandic. We got about as far as telling people that they needed help. Should have carried on but I was afraid of being a pest. :x


lol. If you wanted to continue, you could have used this (but you probably know that link so yeah).


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## Tarvos (Jul 19, 2010)

IcySapphire said:


> If you're interested in music, you could try Italian...


I know those terms, I studied music theory.


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## Tarvos (Jul 19, 2010)

... said:


> Why Portuguese, then? You say that Italian would be too easy - wouldn't Portuguese as well?
> 
> And any of the Scandinavian languages would be way too easy, seeing as you already know three Germanic languages (and German, I've heard, gives you a huge lead on Swedish vocabulary) and the grammar is really simple.
> 
> As for the sound of Spanish, well different strokes for different folks. :P What kind of Portuguese were you interested in?


Pronunciation. I've heard it's a bitch in Portuguese. I'm interested in Portugal-Portuguese. Brazil doesn't attract me.

Scandinavia I am just generally interested in.


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## Lorem Ipsum (Jul 25, 2010)

Ketsu said:


> |S           |       Pl
> nom |puella      |     puellae
> gen |puellae     |     puellarum
> dat |puella (long a)| puellis
> ...


just dropping in to say that unless my latin tuition has been wrong for the past four years, then your singular dative and ablative are out - it's "puellae; amphorae; viae", is it not?

oh, and yeah: learn latin/russian :)


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## Zuu (Jul 25, 2010)

... I was taught that singular dative should be 'ae' and singular ablative be 'a' for the first feminine case.


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## Tarvos (Jul 25, 2010)

Dezzuu is right.

It's:

nom. mensa
gen. mensae
dat. mensae
acc. mensam
abl. mensa

(where mensa means table)


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## Erif (Jul 26, 2010)

English OWAI-

Eh, I love French, and I hated Chinese. Russian really interests me, but it's supposedly and extremely hard accent and language to perfect. Japanese could be a fun choice, and Italian is an alternative "Romance" language.


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## Lorem Ipsum (Jul 27, 2010)

Ah, you're right - the ablative is just "a" on its own


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## hopeandjoy (Jul 28, 2010)

Lorem Ipsum said:


> just dropping in to say that unless my latin tuition has been wrong for the past four years, then your singular dative and ablative are out - it's "puellae; amphorae; viae", is it not?
> 
> oh, and yeah: learn latin/russian :)


Nope, it's long a. My notes and Wikipedia agree.

EDIT: So late.


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## Tarvos (Jul 28, 2010)

You learn if you've done Latin for five years.


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## Tailsy (Jul 28, 2010)

Who on earth even learns Latin any more? My dad took it when he was 13/14, and that was at a poncy public Catholic school in the 1970s. Did I just go to the worst comprehensive school on the planet or are you guys just self-learning/have weird school systems?

I don't know. Wouldn't _langues vivantes_ be more helpful...?


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## Zuu (Jul 28, 2010)

actually, Latin is often offered as an elective across high schools in the States as far as I can tell. there are competitions through the Junior Classical League and I went to state in one of them. :V

anyway, the class I took wasn't just a language class; it involved history, mythology, literature ... it was a good experience and I definitely would not have chosen a different language.


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## 1. Luftballon (Jul 28, 2010)

I know a middle school where latin is mandatory. don't ask.


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## Lorem Ipsum (Jul 28, 2010)

Watershed said:


> You learn if you've done Latin for five years.


I've done Latin for four, actually - an error in remembrance doesn't make me completely incorrect (unless of course that comment wasn't aimed at me and I've been embarassingly arsey). And Ketsu, I still maintain that it's "ae" for the dative singular, and Wiki backs me up as well: [source]

Jessie, I only get taught Latin because I go to a grammar school - it's compulsory for the first two years, and then I chose it for "mini-option", and then at GCSE. We have to learn French/German, and then Spanish/Chinese as well.


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## Tailsy (Jul 28, 2010)

@Dezzuu :o Oh, I see. THE MORE YOU KNOW! It just seems like a weird subject choice...

@Lorem Ipsum oh, grammar school? I keep thinking those were abolished lol ;;


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## Tarvos (Jul 29, 2010)

Latin was an elective at my school, I chose to do it until my finals.


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## Lorem Ipsum (Jul 29, 2010)

Grammar schools were abolished, but only in name. They're called "state selective" now - but everybody still calls them grammars. Downside is that Labour's vendetta against the middle class and anybody who has a chance of doing remotely well in any area means that we get severely underfunded (see: crumbling walls and severe lack of exercise books in our school while local comprehensives get state funding to build sports pitches and buy hundreds of computers).


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## Ruby (Jul 29, 2010)

Some people do Latin at my school, and it's a comprehensive.  Some even do A-level Ancient Greek.


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## goldenquagsire (Jul 29, 2010)

Lorem Ipsum said:


> Grammar schools were abolished, but only in name. They're called "state selective" now - but everybody still calls them grammars. Downside is that Labour's vendetta against the middle class and anybody who has a chance of doing remotely well in any area means that we get severely underfunded (see: crumbling walls and severe lack of exercise books in our school while local comprehensives get state funding to build sports pitches and buy hundreds of computers).


oh no, how dare the underprivileged get access to sport and IT.


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## Lorem Ipsum (Jul 29, 2010)

goldenquagsire said:


> oh no, how dare the underprivileged get access to sport and IT.


What I'm saying is that governments should get their priorities right. When they've already got fields and a large number of computers, comprehensives don't need more, especially when other schools (such as my own) have bugger all in terms of the basics, such as decent classrooms, or enough exercise books to actually have one for each subject, or textbooks that are so out of date that they are still saying that John Major is Prime Minister, and that we still own Hong Kong.

Sorry, I forgot: how dare anybody remotely intelligent get a penny in funding, just because of perceived class divides (those perceptions in fact being bullshit in my experience)? How dare we encourage anybody who actually shows promise? No - just neglect them during education, and then tax them silly when they're doing the jobs that keep the country running.


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## goldenquagsire (Jul 29, 2010)

Lorem Ipsum said:


> What I'm saying is that governments should get their priorities right. When they've already got fields and a large number of computers, comprehensives don't need more, especially when other schools (such as my own) have bugger all in terms of the basics, such as decent classrooms, or enough exercise books to actually have one for each subject, or textbooks that are so out of date that they are still saying that John Major is Prime Minister, and that we still own Hong Kong.
> 
> Sorry, I forgot: how dare anybody remotely intelligent get a penny in funding, just because of perceived class divides (those perceptions in fact being bullshit in my experience)? How dare we encourage anybody who actually shows promise? No - just neglect them during education, and then tax them silly when they're doing the jobs that keep the country running.


I can't imagine that your state selective is quite as bad as you make it sound. regardless of whether the classrooms are a little leaky (which, incidentally, might just mean that you're in an old building; fixing all that up is rather expensive and the money could be better spent on stuff more directly pertaining to education), I'm sure you and your high-achieving peers still receive high quality education from enthusiastic professionals. the pupils in your local comp probably don't get all that, even if they have nice playing fields.

and also, as a middle-class person, you've probably had multiple advantages since birth: good nutrition, literate parents, etc. true, you also likely have a certain amount of innate intelligence; but social factors have given you a headstart over many other people. there are kids in that comprehensive that are as smart and hardworking as you, probably some that are even smarter. also, there may be others who aren't as academically gifted as you, but who excel in practical skills. you might sneer at them, but I bet they'll end up earning more as plumbers and carpenters than you will. they'll be contributing just as much to society as you, so I don't get why you deserve better treatment than them. even if they're not sitting behind a desk like a drone, they're still 'doing jobs that keep the country running' (probably moreso; I don't think we'd be any worse off with a few less bankers, but I would laugh my arse off at all the pampered middle classes trying to do without qualified plumbers).

this persecution complex that people like you have is ridiculous. you're set for life; you'll go to uni, get a good degree, get a good job, have an easy ride. people who come from much harder backgrounds than you need a little more support, because if we just leave them to rot, there's no chance at all of social mobility.

the Victorians shat into open sewers and even they had a sense of philanthropy. we've sure come a long way in 100 years, huh.


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## Ruby (Jul 29, 2010)

I agree with you, goldenquagsire, but perhaps you ought to have made it extra clear that, of course, _all_ state schools should be well-funded and, conversely, none should be bought more computers than it needs.  These two things seem obvious, but in your fervour you almost give the impression you deny them, when I know you accept them completely.


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## Tailsy (Jul 29, 2010)

The UK is one of the most divided societies in the western world, wtf! 80% of the marketable wealth is owned by the wealthiest 20% of the population (although that's not exactly new).


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## opaltiger (Jul 29, 2010)

Lorem Ipsum said:


> Sorry, I forgot: how dare anybody remotely intelligent get a penny in funding, just because of perceived class divides (those perceptions in fact being bullshit in my experience)? How dare we encourage anybody who actually shows promise? No - just neglect them during education, and then tax them silly when they're doing the jobs that keep the country running.


I find it telling that you assume the people who run the country are those who went to grammar schools. And you say the class divide is merely perceived?


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## Dannichu (Jul 30, 2010)

Lorem Ipsum said:


> Downside is that Labour's vendetta against the middle class and *anybody who has a chance of doing remotely well* in any area means that we get severely underfunded (see: crumbling walls and severe lack of exercise books in our school while local comprehensives get state funding to build sports pitches and buy hundreds of computers).





Lorem Ipsum said:


> Sorry, I forgot: how dare *anybody remotely intelligent* get a penny in funding, just because of perceived class divides (those perceptions in fact being bullshit in my experience)? How dare we encourage *anybody who actually shows promise*? No - just neglect them during education, and then tax them silly when they're doing the jobs that keep the country running


This "goes to a state school = unintelligent, has no promise, will never have any say in running the country" which, whether you realize it or not, you are implicitly saying, makes me genuinely sad. And angry. Yes, the schools I've been to weren't very good or high up the league tables, and yes, my parents don't make a lot of money or have any influence, but I and the people I went to school with don't deserve to be written off like this. You sound like a Daily Mail article.

(and if 546 came back, you'd give me over to the aliens)


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## Vladimir Putin's LJ (Jul 30, 2010)

I was going to make some sort of Vlad brand annoying reply but I'm genuinely lost for words at how spiteful that comment was, haha. As an upper-middle class person (oh god i'm actually discussing an expensive cruise with a boy who's boating around scandinavia to his six houses, the bourgeois burns me) I can assert for sure that we have extremely easy lives but the biggest hard-on for complaining than anyone could ever imagine.

I thought Britain was run by boarding school lads raised on sexual abuse and corporal punishment though, so at least I learnt something new.

edit: Hey Ruby, we can do Ancient Greek classes in my school too! Except no one does because no one cares about culture as long as they have money in my school haha


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## goldenquagsire (Jul 30, 2010)

Ruby said:


> I agree with you, goldenquagsire, but perhaps you ought to have made it extra clear that, of course, _all_ state schools should be well-funded and, conversely, none should be bought more computers than it needs.  These two things seem obvious, but in your fervour you almost give the impression you deny them, when I know you accept them completely.


this is true, and it's what I was getting at with



> the pupils in your local comp probably don't get all that, even if they have nice playing fields.


basically, I'm sure both schools are getting similar funding, but it might be that they're just using it in different ways.



> I thought Britain was run by boarding school lads raised on sexual abuse and corporal punishment though, so at least I learnt something new.


it kinda is, 'fraid so.


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## Lorem Ipsum (Jul 30, 2010)

You say all of this as if I'm some kind of discriminatory, snobbish person: which is quite far from the truth, I can guarantee. I love the way how you seem to think of the middle class as the root of all evil, as well. My argument is that education should be a route out of poverty - thus selective schools should be open for any person regardless of background to get high quality teaching in a group of high attaining peers, and go on to do the jobs, such as lawyers, doctors, teachers, etc. that I was referring to.

I believe that a dual-tiered education system would work - provided that selection for grammar schools was handled fairly and not just abused by middle class parents using private tutors, which I am firmly against. The brightest students get pushed more in a group of those of similarly high ability, thus driving them on to attain more than they would in a mixed ability group. The other students - those who don't attain as highly - get educated among their peer group at the comprehensive schools, where teachers are no longer stretched to cater for different ability groups, and the students get a better education because of that.

Take the school leaving age back down to sixteen, and bolster work partnership and apprentice funding for young people - possibly giving a tax or NI break for businesses who take 16-21 year olds on in manual labour or small business, and hey presto, we have a secondary education system which suits everyone depending on what they do best.

And that is the route from a poor background out into a well-paid, top level job, and that's why, even though it may have sounded like it, I don't believe that state school = no hoper, as Dannichu has said. And I find it very insulting that you call me "an article from the Daily Mail", especially as I haven't written people off: I was simply complaining about the funding of schools.


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## Shiny Grimer (Jul 30, 2010)

Lorem Ipsum said:


> You say all of this as if I'm some kind of discriminatory, snobbish person: which is quite far from the truth, I can guarantee.


Whether or not you are a discriminatory person is irrelevant to how you act. Your original posts did come off as sounding like there are no bright people going to state schools.



> I love the way how you seem to think of the middle class as the root of all evil, as well.


Please quote when anybody said that the middle class is responsible for anything bad.



> I believe that a dual-tiered education system would work - provided that selection for grammar schools was handled fairly


Except that we must account that, most likely, it would not be handled fairly.



> The brightest students get pushed more in a group of those of similarly high ability, thus driving them on to attain more than they would in a mixed ability group. The other students - those who don't attain as highly - get educated among their peer group at the comprehensive schools, where teachers are no longer stretched to cater for different ability groups, and the students get a better education because of that.


The problem is that even bright students from poor backgrounds get to be looked over because of various reasons. Low class students, despite their intelligence, tend to do worse on tests and put less into school than middle class students because they're conditioned to believe, essentially, that they cannot get out of their situation and that school is a prelude to work. I don't know what the quality of comprehensive schools is, but state-funded schools in low-income areas tend to be poorer and have a lower quality of education, so even the bright working class kids would not have the same advantage (some might say _privilege_) that a middle class kid would have. I'm speaking from my knowledge of low-income schools in the U.S., so I don't know how much of this applies to low-income areas in the U.K., but I'm guessing it's a fair amount, so. 

If you want an example of how testing results in the situation being stacked against non-middle/upper class children, I offer the example of testing for gifted classes in the U.S. It used to be done based on teacher recommendations, but now that it is done through testing the amount of poor black and Hispanic children entering the gifted program in NYC has dropped by 27%, even though 66% of the city's kindergarteners are black or Hispanic.

Like I said, I don't know much about how grammar schools work or how admittance is based. 

And of course, as you said, middle class parents _will_ continue to tutor their children so that they can get in. Parents tutor their children for everything (even for gifted tests, which is the equivalent of studying for an IQ test). Of course, tutoring requires paying money for tests and tutors, which I'm guessing most poor families can't afford, so... yeah, it's not very fair.



> And that is the route from a poor background out into a well-paid, top level job


Except for that people from poor backgrounds don't have the same advantages that middle class kids do. The playing field is not level so that smart poor children will have more difficulty competing with smart middle class children through no fault of their own.


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## Dannichu (Jul 30, 2010)

...'s absolutely right about tutoring for grammar schools - three people from my primary school applied to the nearest grammar school. The two whose parents could afford extra tuition got in, and the one who couldn't (also the cleverest person in our class) didn't. Passing tests is a terrible way of judging a person's intelligence, especially since there are huge class discrepancies. 

When I took my maths GCSE, there were three tiers; higher, intermediate and I forget the name of the 'lower' one, but the highest mark you could get on it was a D. It was a paper that _was impossible to pass_. Those who are grouped together and labelled 'less able' aren't going to do well because they've been written off by everybody. Back in th' day, if you passed your 11+, you'd go to a grammar school and if not, you'd go to the local comp. One test, taken when you're eleven years old, pretty much set out the course for the rest of your life - being told "If you work hard, maybe you'll make something of yourself" is completely different from it being assumed that you'll be successful and go on to do all those things that society says successful people do (ie. go to university, make contacts, graduate and have a career). 

Invisible privilege is everywhere in the education system - when you apply to university, it's emphasised that good grades aren't enough and they're looking for applicants with "extra" skills and interests - not many working-class people can afford music or dance lessons for their kids. I was only allowed to do an afterschool language because the course was free and I could stay over at my friend's house - the bus from where the lessons were held to my town were was £4, and no way could I afford that twice a week. 

You know why state schools need computers? Because lots of kids at state schools don't have computers at home and wouldn't be able to use them otherwise. I had a friend who'd stay for hours afterschool in the library typing up her coursework because it was a requirement that it be typed, but she didn't have a computer at home. 
And you try finding any kind of employment in today's society when you don't know how to turn a computer on.


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