# Tarot Mafia



## Vipera Magnifica

Spoiler:  Game Rules




Out-of-thread communication is not allowed unless specified by your role. I will set up group PMs for anyone allowed to privately communicate.
Do not screenshot your role PM or quote it verbatim. Paraphrasing your role is fine.
Day/Night phases will be 48 hours each. The day will start and end at 4:00 pm EDT (UTC-4:00).
Flavor text may or may not be relevant.
Please format all votes in *bold*. You should do the same when abstaining or removing your vote. Votes are decided by plurality, and ties will be broken by random number generator.






Spoiler: Player List



@mewtini 
@M&F 
@IndigoEmmy 
@Herbe 
@Stryke 
@JackPK 
@Keldeo 
@rari_teh 
@kokorico 
@Mist1422 
@storm 
@Butterfree 
@Mr. Ultracool 
@RedneckPhoenix 
@kyeugh 
@Seshas 
@Trebek 
@Zero Moment



In the remote town of Mondeville, a long-standing devotion to the occult gave the residents, the Arcanites, a shared sense of belonging. This tradition, however, would soon be threatened, as a secret faction among them planned to dispose of the elders one by one to seize power for themselves and sell the town's abundant natural resources to the outside world. Would their coup succeed, or would they be caught before it was too late?

*Night Zero has started. Please send in your night actions. Day One will begin July 3rd at 4PM EDT (UTC-4:00).*


----------



## Vipera Magnifica

*Part One: Pyre*





Within the sanctum of the Maison du Monde, Vicar Merato was lighting a candle in offering to his god when he heard the knock from behind him. The attendant, a scrawny-looking boy with hair like coal, had his eyes fixed down at the floor as he peeked out from behind the door of polished oak.

"What is it?" Merato asked, his eyes never breaking from the figure of the Coiled One on the wall before him.

"S-sir... There's been... I mean, V-vicar, sir..." The boy's voice had a fear in it that did not go unnoticed by Merato, who stopped what he was doing and turned toward the attendant.

The Vicar snuffed out a candle with his fingers. "Show me."

---

In the town square, a crowd of Arcanites had gathered and were huddled around something. As Merato approached, the crowd parted and the Vicar saw a misshapen lump lying on a mound of wood and straw. Merato pulled back the canvas and peered into the soulless eyes staring up at the grey morning sky.

"She was... found this morning, sir..." The boy said from behind Merato, his voice almost a whisper.

The Vicar rolled back the tarp and looked up at the crowd. "Right... well, I'm sure you all know what this means."

*rari_teh is dead. She was not mafia.

You may now post and discuss who to lynch today. Day One will end July 5th at 4PM EDT (UTC-4:00). *


----------



## mewtini

good news guys


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## JackPK

Great I finished watching the Hamilton official recording _right_ as the day started so I am an emotional wreck just in time for mafia


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## mewtini

JackPK said:


> Great I finished watching the Hamilton official recording _right_ as the day started so I am an emotional wreck just in time for mafia


dude fucking same


----------



## JackPK

Oh boy it was great wasn't it


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## Trebek

wait i haven’t watched it yet don’t spoil anything

also mfw i was waiting for day to start but i hadn’t started watching the thread yet


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## Trebek

Vipera Magnifica said:


> *Part One: Pyre*


this image is iconic omg


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## mewtini

Trebek said:


> wait i haven’t watched it yet don’t spoil anything


don't you know hamilton already wtf


JackPK said:


> Oh boy it was great wasn't it


yes ;____;

great game of mafia guys


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## JackPK

Trebek said:


> don’t spoil anything


VM kills hamilton


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## Keldeo

JackPK said:


> Trebek said:
> 
> 
> 
> don’t spoil anything
> 
> 
> 
> VM kills hamilton
Click to expand...

smh I quit


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## JackPK

JackPK said:


> Trebek said:
> 
> 
> 
> don’t spoil anything
> 
> 
> 
> VM kills hamilton
Click to expand...

Eyyyy racking up those sweet reaction points I haven't been getting 'cuz I died in my only other 2020-era mafia game so far


----------



## Herbe

JackPK said:


> JackPK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trebek said:
> 
> 
> 
> don’t spoil anything
> 
> 
> 
> VM kills hamilton
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Eyyyy racking up those sweet reaction points I haven't been getting 'cuz I died in my only other 2020-era mafia game so far
Click to expand...

my bad, love


----------



## Trebek

mewtini said:


> Trebek said:
> 
> 
> 
> wait i haven’t watched it yet don’t spoil anything
> 
> 
> 
> don't you know hamilton already
Click to expand...

yeah but don’t spoil it :(

can’t believe vm would do such a thing


----------



## storm

aaaaaaaa the game started just as I was about to take a nap!!

and I can't even watch hamilton today, not that it matters now ))):

geez vm how _could_ you


----------



## Novae

imagine not already having seen hamilton live (though admittedly not with the original cast)

anyway flex over let’s get this bread


----------



## JackPK

Mist1422 said:


> imagine not already having seen hamilton live (though admittedly not with the original cast)
> 
> anyway flex over let’s get this bread


Real talk sorry one last flex before we drop the subject but when I saw hamilton live it had the whole original cast EXCEPT renee elise goldsberry was out sick who is the one I had wanted to see most


----------



## JackPK

*Now *flex over let's get this bread


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## Herbe

ok so i pulled my tarot deck out and asked it abt each of you to see who is mafia
this is surely foolproof



Spoiler: my foolproof tarot deck reads



mewtini - yes scum
M&F - no
IndigoEmmy - yes - 7 of swords which is the Trickery and Deception card so maybe I'm on to something here
Herbe - no
Stryke - no
JackPK - yes
Keldeo - no
rari_teh - no 
kokorico - yes
Mist1422 - no
storm - yes
Butterfree - no
Mr. Ultracool - no
RedneckPhoenix - no
kyeugh - yes
Seshas - no
Trebek - no
Zero Moment - no



based on my thorough analysis the scumteam in this game is mewtini, indigoemmy, jackpk, kokorico, storm, and kyeugh. sorry i dont make the rules im just a messenger for the cards.
thank me later


----------



## Trebek

JackPK said:


> *Now *flex over let's get this bread





Spoiler







i’m kidding plz don’t modkill me


----------



## Trebek

Herbe said:


> ok so i pulled my tarot deck out and asked it abt each of you to see who is mafia
> this is surely foolproof
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: my foolproof tarot deck reads
> 
> 
> 
> mewtini - yes scum
> M&F - no
> IndigoEmmy - yes - 7 of swords which is the Trickery and Deception card so maybe I'm on to something here
> Herbe - no
> Stryke - no
> JackPK - yes
> Keldeo - no
> rari_teh - no
> kokorico - yes
> Mist1422 - no
> storm - yes
> Butterfree - no
> Mr. Ultracool - no
> RedneckPhoenix - no
> kyeugh - yes
> Seshas - no
> Trebek - no
> Zero Moment - no
> 
> 
> 
> based on my thorough analysis the scumteam in this game is mewtini, indigoemmy, jackpk, kokorico, storm, and kyeugh. sorry i dont make the rules im just a messenger for the cards.
> thank me later


damn game solved D1 let’s go home


----------



## Herbe

pack it up boys i found the cure to mafia


----------



## JackPK

Ok i consulted my own tarot deck and it calls herbe The Fool lmao


----------



## Herbe

JackPK said:


> Ok i consulted my own tarot deck and it calls herbe The Fool lmao


of course it would, that was my usertitle for a good number of weeks


----------



## Trebek

my tarot deck just keeps telling me that i don’t have enough bread >:


----------



## Herbe

it may be relevant that i asked my deck if it was lying about some of its reads and it said yes oops


----------



## Trebek

did it say which ones tho 


Herbe said:


> it may be relevant that i asked my deck if it was lying about some of its reads and it said yes oops


----------



## Trebek

ngl i am fully expecting, and embracing, this game to devolve into a bunch of “believe in the heart of the cards” jokes


----------



## Herbe

Trebek said:


> did it say which ones tho
> 
> 
> Herbe said:
> 
> 
> 
> it may be relevant that i asked my deck if it was lying about some of its reads and it said yes oops
Click to expand...

i tried to ask! he said he would not tell me. he wants to make it interesting 
booooooo no one likes an interesting mafia game


----------



## Keldeo

Herbe said:


> it may be relevant that i asked my deck if it was lying about some of its reads and it said yes oops


Yeet all yarnspinners

*Herbe's tarot deck*


----------



## Herbe

Keldeo said:


> Herbe said:
> 
> 
> 
> it may be relevant that i asked my deck if it was lying about some of its reads and it said yes oops
> 
> 
> 
> Yeet all yarnspinners
> 
> *Herbe's tarot deck*
Click to expand...

he has a name, you know! *will*


----------



## Trebek

*will *is hedging tbhtbh


----------



## Novae

Herbe said:


> ok so i pulled my tarot deck out and asked it abt each of you to see who is mafia
> this is surely foolproof
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: my foolproof tarot deck reads
> 
> 
> 
> mewtini - yes scum
> M&F - no
> IndigoEmmy - yes - 7 of swords which is the Trickery and Deception card so maybe I'm on to something here
> Herbe - no
> Stryke - no
> JackPK - yes
> Keldeo - no
> rari_teh - no
> kokorico - yes
> Mist1422 - no
> storm - yes
> Butterfree - no
> Mr. Ultracool - no
> RedneckPhoenix - no
> kyeugh - yes
> Seshas - no
> Trebek - no
> Zero Moment - no
> 
> 
> 
> based on my thorough analysis the scumteam in this game is mewtini, indigoemmy, jackpk, kokorico, storm, and kyeugh. sorry i dont make the rules im just a messenger for the cards.
> thank me later


important question who did it say the third party/parties were


----------



## Herbe

Mist1422 said:


> Herbe said:
> 
> 
> 
> ok so i pulled my tarot deck out and asked it abt each of you to see who is mafia
> this is surely foolproof
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: my foolproof tarot deck reads
> 
> 
> 
> mewtini - yes scum
> M&F - no
> IndigoEmmy - yes - 7 of swords which is the Trickery and Deception card so maybe I'm on to something here
> Herbe - no
> Stryke - no
> JackPK - yes
> Keldeo - no
> rari_teh - no
> kokorico - yes
> Mist1422 - no
> storm - yes
> Butterfree - no
> Mr. Ultracool - no
> RedneckPhoenix - no
> kyeugh - yes
> Seshas - no
> Trebek - no
> Zero Moment - no
> 
> 
> 
> based on my thorough analysis the scumteam in this game is mewtini, indigoemmy, jackpk, kokorico, storm, and kyeugh. sorry i dont make the rules im just a messenger for the cards.
> thank me later
> 
> 
> 
> important question who did it say the third party/parties were
Click to expand...

yes he said it was you and then proceeded to spell out your home address using the number of each card i drew as a code


----------



## Novae

Herbe said:


> Mist1422 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Herbe said:
> 
> 
> 
> ok so i pulled my tarot deck out and asked it abt each of you to see who is mafia
> this is surely foolproof
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: my foolproof tarot deck reads
> 
> 
> 
> mewtini - yes scum
> M&F - no
> IndigoEmmy - yes - 7 of swords which is the Trickery and Deception card so maybe I'm on to something here
> Herbe - no
> Stryke - no
> JackPK - yes
> Keldeo - no
> rari_teh - no
> kokorico - yes
> Mist1422 - no
> storm - yes
> Butterfree - no
> Mr. Ultracool - no
> RedneckPhoenix - no
> kyeugh - yes
> Seshas - no
> Trebek - no
> Zero Moment - no
> 
> 
> 
> based on my thorough analysis the scumteam in this game is mewtini, indigoemmy, jackpk, kokorico, storm, and kyeugh. sorry i dont make the rules im just a messenger for the cards.
> thank me later
> 
> 
> 
> important question who did it say the third party/parties were
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> yes he said it was you and then proceeded to spell out your home address using the number of each card i drew as a code
Click to expand...

no I mean the other third party

I definitely do not have a wincon that relies on them winning not at all


----------



## Herbe

(i asked if there were third parties and he said no ftr)


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## Herbe

damn will is lying again? parking my vote tbh


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## Novae

Herbe said:


> (i asked if there were third parties and he said no ftr)


(i may or may not have mechanical info that third parties exist)


----------



## Vipera Magnifica

Vote Totals:
*Will *(3) (Keldeo, Herbe, Trebek)


----------



## Keldeo

Herbe said:


> damn will is lying again? parking my vote tbh


Do you think Mist is telling the truth?


----------



## Herbe

Keldeo said:


> Herbe said:
> 
> 
> 
> damn will is lying again? parking my vote tbh
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think Mist is telling the truth?
Click to expand...

i don't think that that would be hard to lie about (its hard to prove the absence of a third party cause they dont usually self reveal anyway?) but inherently i trusted them abt it


----------



## Novae

to clarify because it's probably important

I have mechanical info that a non-group scum exists, so either outgroup or third party

I'm not informed which or anything about them


----------



## Herbe

god imagine the 4d chess if mist was somehow setting up some elaborate mafia gamble hinging on town believing there's outgroup scum/third party bad boys


----------



## Trebek

Herbe said:


> god imagine the 4d chess if mist was somehow setting up some elaborate mafia gamble hinging on town believing there's outgroup scum/third party bad boys


honestly i already forfeit if this is the case


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## Novae

Herbe said:


> god imagine the 4d chess if mist was somehow setting up some elaborate mafia gamble hinging on town believing there's outgroup scum/third party bad boys


:)



Spoiler



god I wish lol


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## qenya

Aha, I forgot Tarot was starting today. Not gonna have time to read until later, but checking in to say I'm not AFK I guess


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## Novae

that said I did finally actually role with Potential Usage Yay so please don't kill me n1 or I'll be sad


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## JackPK

Right so we have uhhh 18 players if I'm counting right? So assuming like a fifth to a third (ish) are scum, that's like 4-6ish, so if Mist's info is correct then that sounds like an ingroup of like 3-5 and at least one outgroup? Seems plausible imo


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## Herbe

JackPK said:


> Right so we have uhhh 18 players if I'm counting right? So assuming like a fifth to a third (ish) are scum, that's like 4-6ish, so if Mist's info is correct then that sounds like an ingroup of like 3-5 and at least one outgroup? Seems plausible imo


my 6 person scumteam list is looking sexier by the minute


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## Zori

I need the correct image for this


----------



## Herbe

(i am 90% joking but if there isn't at least one wolf in my list im gonna be grumpy and resign from witchcraft)


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## Zori

this is my one and only role soft glgl


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## M&F




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## JackPK

M&F said:


>


oh nooooooooo


----------



## Novae

Seshas said:


> this is my one and only role soft glgl


ampharos is an admin on MU
the admin color is red
*Seshas* is mafia


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## Novae

JackPK said:


> M&F said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> oh nooooooooo
Click to expand...

oh yesssssss


----------



## Herbe

M&F said:


>


hello dearest! why does the render on this minion look so offputting


----------



## JackPK

Mist1422 said:


> Seshas said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this is my one and only role soft glgl
> 
> 
> 
> ampharos is an admin on MU
> the admin color is red
> *Seshas* is mafia
Click to expand...

and here I was just thinking ampharos' mane is soft


----------



## Novae

JackPK said:


> Mist1422 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seshas said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this is my one and only role soft glgl
> 
> 
> 
> ampharos is an admin on MU
> the admin color is red
> *Seshas* is mafia
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> and here I was just thinking ampharos' mane is soft
Click to expand...

we can both be right!


----------



## kyeugh

i was gonna say good news guys but i forgot my role and then the moment was gone


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## Zori

I didn't say it would be my only role claim though

*Mega Ampharos, Mafia Overlord of Space*






(also known as "the person who clears out the storage")


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## Zori

The only role I can think of for Mist that's not just straight up "Informed VT" is outgroup/3rd party
If Mist is Mafia, he has a role that implies 3p/outgroup, which is reasonable ig?
(A role like Mafia Cop/Doctor for example)


----------



## Zori

Seshas said:


> The only role I can think of for Mist that's not just straight up "Informed VT" is outgroup/3rd party
> If Mist is Mafia, he has a role that implies 3p/outgroup, which is reasonable ig?
> (A role like Mafia Cop/Doctor for example)


tl;dr Mist town 80% of the time
(just ignore the fact that that's 5% above rand)


----------



## Zori

Also we don't know if Mist is PR or effectively VT so any spec about that will be instantly hit over the head with a hammer if Mist flips town


----------



## Zori

And the answer is no, I'm not capable of low-posting tbh

I don't know how much stock to put into Herbe's lack of 3p's/6 wolves in their rand list (on second thought it's probably almost completely NAI)

How about
storm is gut-town because their entrance sounds detatched from any teammates (I suck at these types of reads ftr)


----------



## Zori

*Mega Ampharos, Mafia Storage Cleaner Overlord of Space*
_Mafia Jailkeeper : Vigilante | 1-Shot_








Each Day, I can delete someone from the spacetime continuum, effectively killing them at the end of the day, but without a death announcement. They will be revived at the end of the following night. The death isn't announced, so if you try to target them, sucks to suck I guess.

Once per game, at Night, I can delete someone permanently. The only indication of their death will be their removal from the ping list at Day start.

(I'll stop at some point in time ok)


----------



## M&F

Herbe said:


> M&F said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hello dearest! why does the render on this minion look so offputting
Click to expand...

slightly stretched sideways, unlikely amount of fingers, a mouse cursor hanging directly in front of its face?

anyways, I wouldn't want to stop the discussion so soon, but I'm halfway in the mood to lynch mist already on the considerably high off-chance that they were unsubtly signaling to the in-group mob,


----------



## Zori

M&F said:


> slightly stretched sideways, unlikely amount of fingers, a mouse cursor hanging directly in front of its face?
> 
> anyways, I wouldn't want to stop the discussion so soon, but I'm halfway in the mood to lynch mist already on the considerably high off-chance that they were unsubtly signaling to the in-group mob,


I mean, that's a 10% I think
which is ~twice rand so pretty considerable
but we can disregard it because presumably we don't need to kill the outgroups anyways


----------



## JackPK

tbh I have no idea how many fingers minions normally have so I have no idea whether three is an unlikely number (or, I guess, two and a thumb)


----------



## Keldeo

Seshas and MF, do you make anything of Herbe and Jack’s reactions to Mist’s information?

I think it’s moderately to highly likely that Mist is not (group mafia) based on how they went about revealing that information. That is, if they were trying to sow paranoia or signal to an outgroup member or something, I don’t think they would have started it like kind of a forced joke and then added clarity. I dunno between them being informed town vs. third party/outgroup.

In any case I think having a non-group mafia seems pretty in-character for VM as a game designer, haha.

I guess I vaguely like Seshas being the first to actually try to read Mist and trying to force a read on storm? though I don’t agree with the latter.


----------



## Zori

Keldeo said:


> I think it’s moderately to highly likely that Mist is not (group mafia) based on how they went about revealing that information. That is, if they were trying to sow paranoia or signal to an outgroup member or something, I don’t think they would have started it like kind of a forced joke and then added clarity. I dunno between them being informed town vs. third party/outgroup.
> 
> -snip-
> 
> I guess I vaguely like Seshas being the first to actually try to read Mist and trying to force a read on storm? though I don’t agree with the latter.


1. The world where Mist is Mafia for me is where Mafia knows there's an outgroup and Mist is trying to get cred, as revealing the info doesn't really hurt them too severely

2. understandable (re: storm read)

I'd get to the rest later probably, gtg now


----------



## Trebek

im also between town and third party, but my gut wants to say that it seems just a little too obvious for mist to be outgroup? like, would an outgroup mafia really go about it in that way if our immediate response would be to ask if they are outgroup?


----------



## qenya

OK I'm here properly now!

I didn't interpret Mist's initial reveal as a joke, just as a slightly ambiguous phrasing that they quickly clarified. I think it would be completely in character as a signal from an ingroup mafia who's trying to signal to an outgroup. Which is not to say that that's my working theory right now - I think it probably makes more sense for mafia!Mist to signal more subtly, regardless of whether they're ingroup or not - but I don't think it's much _less_ likely than the opposite.

I do think, however, that the information is likely to be true even Mist is mafia, as the alternative would be the tinfoil someone mentioned earlier, that they're setting up some sort of Rube Goldberg machine of a gambit.


----------



## Trebek

Keldeo said:


> I guess I vaguely like Seshas being the first to actually try to read Mist and trying to force a read on storm?


yeah, im still not sure about how i feel about what was said, but i like that something was said in the first place


----------



## JackPK

Keldeo said:


> Seshas and MF, do you make anything of Herbe and Jack’s reactions to Mist’s information?


LOL I read this sentence and thought "huh? did I react to it?" and then remembered I had mech!speculated building off it. no memories head empty

(mech!speculation being something I am deeply instinctively drawn to do, especially considering my experience is heavily based in the old forums mafia games where we basically didn't talk except to abstain or share mech info. so since the new meta appears to be less mech-based, I told myself many times I would try to be less mech-y and more read-y, but oh well, I guess I accidentally went mech-y immediately anyway)

(why don't we have an emoji for bashfully grinning with a sweatdrop, I need that for the end of the previous paragraph)


----------



## qenya

JackPK said:


> (why don't we have an emoji for bashfully grinning with a sweatdrop, I need that for the end of the previous paragraph)


It's :sweat_smile::


----------



## JackPK

I think the worlds I'm tentatively considering are "Mist is outgroup mafia," "Mist is 3p non-scum," and "Mist is town with a role that directly interacts with 3p somehow"

For now, at least, I don't think I believe that there are TVT-style Vanilla Townies with word-of-god information snippets, at least until/unless more of them come to offer info


----------



## JackPK

kokorico said:


> JackPK said:
> 
> 
> 
> (why don't we have an emoji for bashfully grinning with a sweatdrop, I need that for the end of the previous paragraph)
> 
> 
> 
> It's :sweat_smile::
Click to expand...

Ah! Why didn't I see that in the dropdown haha


----------



## qenya

JackPK said:


> I think the worlds I'm tentatively considering are "Mist is outgroup mafia," "Mist is 3p non-scum," and "Mist is town with a role that directly interacts with 3p somehow"
> 
> For now, at least, I don't think I believe that there are TVT-style Vanilla Townies with word-of-god information snippets, at least until/unless more of them come to offer info


This is where my head is at right now too, with regard to what Mist might be if not mafia. Especially since they joked about the possibility of a third party being unable to win if a different third party won. I doubt that's _exactly_ what their role is, but it's out-of-the-blue enough that it might well have a grain of truth.

Loose extrapolation: If they're 3p but not fullclaiming, that suggests they think at least one faction would have an incentive to prevent them from winning.


----------



## M&F

Seshas said:


> but we can disregard it because presumably we don't need to kill the outgroups anyways


I wouldn't take that for a given! plus, it's not like it'd be a loss to weaken the scumteam, anyway



Keldeo said:


> Seshas and MF, do you make anything of Herbe and Jack’s reactions to Mist’s information?


their use of the like and the wow face respectively was fine-comb- ahem
both sound like flatly non-alignment-indicative mechspec to me really



Keldeo said:


> I dunno between them being informed town vs. third party/outgroup.


I'd rank self-aligned third-party pretty low on the list of possibilities here; someone of that alignment has like, probably no reason to be forthcoming with putting the rough outlines of their role on display, although I have seen people in similar positions overshare fast and early as a way to gain town's trust (protip: as far as the record goes, that doesn't work and gets you lynched, apparently-)

mist's own claim is that they have powers and isn't just a Mysterious Informant knockoff, which imo points harder to outgroup mob signaling, especially considering the whole tone of "I'm still useful guys don't lynch me" -- something you don't normally want to signal if you're worried about being nightkilled


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## JackPK

JackPK said:


> I think the worlds I'm tentatively considering are "Mist is outgroup mafia," "Mist is 3p non-scum," and "Mist is town with a role that directly interacts with 3p somehow"


I should add it is so early, and we have so little info, that I do not feel comfortable guessing whether any of these worlds is more or less likely than the others

Another possible world, I guess, is "Mist is ingroup mafia and trying to throw us off the trail by making us think they're outgroup mafia" but like, why. That seems like recklessly bad play (sorry Mist, if it's what you're actually doing, I do not mean to insult you) so I'm not subscribed to this world among my tentative worlds at this time

(also *bangs head* why am I still allowing myself to dive way too deep into mech!speculation at this time. bad reflexes. bad!)


----------



## JackPK

M&F said:


> (protip: as far as the record goes, that doesn't work and gets you lynched, apparently-)


worked for a good long while for mewt in tvt tbh


----------



## M&F

all of the previous said though, I'm just now noticing mist's joke prior to their actual claim -- because let me tell you, speedreading memes is a survival skill around here lately- -- so now I have to go think on what _that_ might have meant, if anything. hmmm


----------



## M&F

JackPK said:


> M&F said:
> 
> 
> 
> (protip: as far as the record goes, that doesn't work and gets you lynched, apparently-)
> 
> 
> 
> worked for a good long while for mewt in tvt tbh
Click to expand...

that was just oversharing, not fast or early-


----------



## Zori

JackPK said:


> I think the worlds I'm tentatively considering are "Mist is outgroup mafia," "Mist is 3p non-scum," and "Mist is town with a role that directly interacts with 3p somehow"
> 
> For now, at least, I don't think I believe that there are TVT-style Vanilla Townies with word-of-god information snippets, at least until/unless more of them come to offer info


----------



## Zori

Car thoughts:
V!Mist likely means V!M&F because W!M&F wouldn't have a reason to call them out for outgroup unless they know it's not true


----------



## JackPK

Seshas said:


> JackPK said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the worlds I'm tentatively considering are "Mist is outgroup mafia," "Mist is 3p non-scum," and "Mist is town with a role that directly interacts with 3p somehow"
> 
> For now, at least, I don't think I believe that there are TVT-style Vanilla Townies with word-of-god information snippets, at least until/unless more of them come to offer info
Click to expand...

I don't know what this means


----------



## Zori

I revise my statement from "anyone rolespeccing Mist as VT/PR gets hammered" to "anyone rolespeccing Mist as VT/PR gets stabbed"
We don't want to help mafia clear up if they're VT or PR and we can do that by 1. giving our insights and 2. eliciting a reaction out of them w/r/t the ongoing discussion
so I'm opposed to talking about it as a whole


----------



## Zori

With 18 players I think we're looking at 4 wolves and some assorted outgroups/3rd parties (unless VM usually has a different ratio)
just to deny all outrageous derpclears w/r/t that


----------



## Trebek

Seshas said:


> I revise my statement from "anyone rolespeccing Mist as VT/PR gets hammered" to "anyone rolespeccing Mist as VT/PR gets stabbed"
> We don't want to help mafia clear up if they're VT or PR and we can do that by 1. giving our insights and 2. eliciting a reaction out of them w/r/t the ongoing discussion
> so I'm opposed to talking about it as a whole


i can vibe with this tbh? we can always come back to the discussion later when more information is around

idk tho im always thrown off by how quickly discussion starts on D1 so im just kinda trying to figure out which way is up lol


----------



## Zori

Trebek said:


> im just kinda trying to figure out which way is up lol


up is the direction the page/your cursor moves when you click the key below the right-shift tbh


----------



## M&F

hmmm, the initial joke being specifically about third parties muddles the whole intent to signal... although it was also quite a bit of oversharing that would be supremely counterproductive at face value

I do now remember one town role for which having the information mist claimed isn't as preposterous as I was initially thinking there, though, and in fact feels pretty VMish; the question then becomes whether I want to open my mouth too wide on that and potentially expose a power role tho (not that our meta around here normally has an abundance of non-power roles, but)


----------



## Trebek

Seshas said:


> Trebek said:
> 
> 
> 
> im just kinda trying to figure out which way is up lol
> 
> 
> 
> up is the direction the page/your cursor moves when you click the key below the right-shift tbh
Click to expand...

which one


Spoiler


----------



## qenya

Seshas said:


> I revise my statement from "anyone rolespeccing Mist as VT/PR gets hammered" to "anyone rolespeccing Mist as VT/PR gets stabbed"
> We don't want to help mafia clear up if they're VT or PR and we can do that by 1. giving our insights and 2. eliciting a reaction out of them w/r/t the ongoing discussion
> so I'm opposed to talking about it as a whole


...while I agree on principle, I don't think anyone's actually been speculating about that? It's more about whether or not they're likely to be 3p


----------



## JackPK

Seshas said:


> I revise my statement from "anyone rolespeccing Mist as VT/PR gets hammered" to "anyone rolespeccing Mist as VT/PR gets stabbed"
> We don't want to help mafia clear up if they're VT or PR and we can do that by 1. giving our insights and 2. eliciting a reaction out of them w/r/t the ongoing discussion
> so I'm opposed to talking about it as a whole


I can get onboard with that, that's a good point I hadn't thought of


----------



## Trebek

Seshas said:


> "anyone rolespeccing Mist as VT/PR gets stabbed"


wait, does this mean "anyone speccing that mist is VT/PR" or "anyone who is VT/PR speccing about mist"

i confused myself


----------



## Zori

M&F said:


> hmmm, the initial joke being specifically about third parties muddles the whole intent to signal... although it was also quite a bit of oversharing that would be supremely counterproductive at face value
> 
> I do now remember one town role for which having the information mist claimed isn't as preposterous as I was initially thinking there, though, and in fact feels pretty VMish; the question then becomes whether I want to open my mouth too wide on that and potentially expose a power role tho (not that our meta around here normally has an abundance of non-power roles, but)


1. I was trying to type the number "1" and then it took me to the TCoD home page???
2. Yeah, I agree with that
3. Don't


----------



## Trebek

Trebek said:


> Seshas said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trebek said:
> 
> 
> 
> im just kinda trying to figure out which way is up lol
> 
> 
> 
> up is the direction the page/your cursor moves when you click the key below the right-shift tbh
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> which one
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 666
Click to expand...

oh lord i sent that image on mobile and didnt realize how big it was
i swear my keyboard isnt that dirty its just zoomed in a lot D:


----------



## Zori

kokorico said:


> ...while I agree on principle, I don't think anyone's actually been speculating about that? It's more about whether or not they're likely to be 3p


Mostly in response to Jack's "I don't think that there are any Mysterious Informants in this setup"


----------



## qenya

Trebek said:


> Seshas said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trebek said:
> 
> 
> 
> im just kinda trying to figure out which way is up lol
> 
> 
> 
> up is the direction the page/your cursor moves when you click the key below the right-shift tbh
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> which one
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 666
Click to expand...

please clean your keyboard before it gets too bad! I say this as someone who once had to clean out a nest of spider eggs from inside a laptop, and believe me, this is not an experience that will enrich your life,


----------



## Zori

Trebek said:


> wait, does this mean "anyone speccing that mist is VT/PR" or "anyone who is VT/PR speccing about mist"
> 
> i confused myself


The first



Herbe said:


> i don't think that that would be hard to lie about (its hard to prove the absence of a third party cause they dont usually self reveal anyway?) but inherently i trusted them abt it


I'm going to say that Herbe looks a bit worse for this


----------



## qenya

Seshas said:


> Herbe said:
> 
> 
> 
> i don't think that that would be hard to lie about (its hard to prove the absence of a third party cause they dont usually self reveal anyway?) but inherently i trusted them abt it
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to say that Herbe looks a bit worse for this
Click to expand...

I don't follow, can you explain why?


----------



## Trebek

Seshas said:


> Trebek said:
> 
> 
> 
> wait, does this mean "anyone speccing that mist is VT/PR" or "anyone who is VT/PR speccing about mist"
> 
> i confused myself
> 
> 
> 
> The first
Click to expand...

ok cool, thats what i was originally thinking


----------



## JackPK

kokorico said:


> Seshas said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Herbe said:
> 
> 
> 
> i don't think that that would be hard to lie about (its hard to prove the absence of a third party cause they dont usually self reveal anyway?) but inherently i trusted them abt it
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to say that Herbe looks a bit worse for this
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't follow, can you explain why?
Click to expand...

oh good I'm not the only one


----------



## Trebek

JackPK said:


> kokorico said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seshas said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Herbe said:
> 
> 
> 
> i don't think that that would be hard to lie about (its hard to prove the absence of a third party cause they dont usually self reveal anyway?) but inherently i trusted them abt it
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to say that Herbe looks a bit worse for this
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't follow, can you explain why?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> oh good I'm not the only one
Click to expand...

almost got myself ninjad by asking the same question tbhtbh


----------



## Zori

kokorico said:


> Seshas said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to say that Herbe looks a bit worse for this
> 
> 
> 
> I don't follow, can you explain why?
Click to expand...

The I think it's untrustworthy but I trust it anyways bit sounds like someone who saw an outgroup/3p signal and is defending and hedging at the same time
Although it is pretty weak, I did actually catch a wolf using a stronger example of this recently (with a lot more evidence to connect the dots)


----------



## mewtini

i am not dead even though i haven’t pulled off a quintuple post string yet! meatspace calls but i’ll come vibe l8r


----------



## Trebek

Seshas said:


> kokorico said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seshas said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to say that Herbe looks a bit worse for this
> 
> 
> 
> I don't follow, can you explain why?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The I think it's untrustworthy but I trust it anyways bit sounds like someone who saw an outgroup/3p signal and is defending and hedging at the same time
Click to expand...

i guess this makes sense? idk to me it just felt like Herbe was contrasting the general mentality of that type of post with how he read this particular one, which doesn't seem too hedgey to me


----------



## Zori

Seshas said:


> Although it is pretty weak, I did actually catch a wolf using a stronger example of this recently (with a lot more evidence to connect the dots)


By the way, this definitely wasn't to show why a certain thing I did that game was "smart" instead of "extremely idiotic"


----------



## qenya

Hi Mr. Ultracool, I see you've started reading the thread! When you get to this post, please say something to confirm you're active/online and playing! It doesn't even need to include any useful insights if you don't have any yet, but lurking seems to be regarded as pretty suspicious on this forum, and it would break my heart if you were voted out for a third game in a row based on nothing more substantial than inactivity.


----------



## Mr. Ultracool

Herbe said:


> ok so i pulled my tarot deck out and asked it abt each of you to see who is mafia
> this is surely foolproof
> 
> 
> 
> 
> based on my thorough analysis the scumteam in this game is mewtini, indigoemmy, jackpk, kokorico, storm, and kyeugh. sorry i dont make the rules im just a messenger for the cards.
> thank me later


So, what role/card did you draw for everyone? Interrested in whether that matches up, tbh.



Mist1422 said:


> that said I did finally actually role with Potential Usage Yay so please don't kill me n1 or I'll be sad


Same. I'm not fully sure if I should claim or not, but there's serious incentive for people to just nonlethally visit me at night - there might be something to gain!



Seshas said:


> JackPK said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the worlds I'm tentatively considering are "Mist is outgroup mafia," "Mist is 3p non-scum," and "Mist is town with a role that directly interacts with 3p somehow"
> 
> For now, at least, I don't think I believe that there are TVT-style Vanilla Townies with word-of-god information snippets, at least until/unless more of them come to offer info
Click to expand...

Gasp! Are you claiming to be Three of Swords?


----------



## qenya

that was a considerably faster turnaround than i was expecting


----------



## Mr. Ultracool

kokorico said:


> Hi Mr. Ultracool, I see you've started reading the thread! When you get to this post, please say something to confirm you're active/online and playing! It doesn't even need to include any useful insights if you don't have any yet, but lurking seems to be regarded as pretty suspicious on this forum, and it would break my heart if you were voted out for a third game in a row based on nothing more substantial than inactivity.


Well, to be fair, I *am *absolutely lurky. Still trying to improve there, tbh


----------



## Zori

Mr. Ultracool said:


> Gasp! Are you claiming to be Three of Swords?


----------



## qenya

Seshas said:


> kokorico said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seshas said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to say that Herbe looks a bit worse for this
> 
> 
> 
> I don't follow, can you explain why?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The I think it's untrustworthy but I trust it anyways bit sounds like someone who saw an outgroup/3p signal and is defending and hedging at the same time
> Although it is pretty weak, I did actually catch a wolf using a stronger example of this recently (with a lot more evidence to connect the dots)
Click to expand...

Hmm, I guess I see what you mean. I'm with Trebek on this tbh - I'd interpret it more like Herbe saying "this general class of claim is easy to fake, but I think Mist is coming across as honest in this situation". I guess it could provide information about Mist depending on how Herbe flips, though.


----------



## Mr. Ultracool

M&F said:


> hmmm, the initial joke being specifically about third parties muddles the whole intent to signal... although it was also quite a bit of oversharing that would be supremely counterproductive at face value
> 
> I do now remember one town role for which having the information mist claimed isn't as preposterous as I was initially thinking there, though, and in fact feels pretty VMish; the question then becomes whether I want to open my mouth too wide on that and potentially expose a power role tho (not that our meta around here normally has an abundance of non-power roles, but)


Well, you mentioning that tidbit will probably lead to the Mafia scouring various online lists for compatible townroles, anyways, since they would kind of need to know - might as well share.


----------



## Trebek

Mr. Ultracool said:


> M&F said:
> 
> 
> 
> hmmm, the initial joke being specifically about third parties muddles the whole intent to signal... although it was also quite a bit of oversharing that would be supremely counterproductive at face value
> 
> I do now remember one town role for which having the information mist claimed isn't as preposterous as I was initially thinking there, though, and in fact feels pretty VMish; the question then becomes whether I want to open my mouth too wide on that and potentially expose a power role tho (not that our meta around here normally has an abundance of non-power roles, but)
> 
> 
> 
> Well, you mentioning that tidbit will probably lead to the Mafia scouring various online lists for compatible townroles, anyways, since they would kind of need to know - might as well share.
Click to expand...

we could also just let the mafia get distracted by trying to find it lel


----------



## Trebek

Trebek said:


> Mr. Ultracool said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> M&F said:
> 
> 
> 
> hmmm, the initial joke being specifically about third parties muddles the whole intent to signal... although it was also quite a bit of oversharing that would be supremely counterproductive at face value
> 
> I do now remember one town role for which having the information mist claimed isn't as preposterous as I was initially thinking there, though, and in fact feels pretty VMish; the question then becomes whether I want to open my mouth too wide on that and potentially expose a power role tho (not that our meta around here normally has an abundance of non-power roles, but)
> 
> 
> 
> Well, you mentioning that tidbit will probably lead to the Mafia scouring various online lists for compatible townroles, anyways, since they would kind of need to know - might as well share.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> we could also just let the mafia get distracted by trying to find it lel
Click to expand...

actually, yeah after thinking more about it i would say dont say anything


----------



## Zori

kokorico said:


> Hmm, I guess I see what you mean. I'm with Trebek on this tbh - I'd interpret it more like Herbe saying "this general class of claim is easy to fake, but I think Mist is coming across as honest in this situation". I guess it could provide information about Mist depending on how Herbe flips, though.


Understandable, this likely won't inform my read on Herbe at all because it's really weak
I just felt like pointing it out tbh


----------



## M&F

Mr. Ultracool said:


> M&F said:
> 
> 
> 
> hmmm, the initial joke being specifically about third parties muddles the whole intent to signal... although it was also quite a bit of oversharing that would be supremely counterproductive at face value
> 
> I do now remember one town role for which having the information mist claimed isn't as preposterous as I was initially thinking there, though, and in fact feels pretty VMish; the question then becomes whether I want to open my mouth too wide on that and potentially expose a power role tho (not that our meta around here normally has an abundance of non-power roles, but)
> 
> 
> 
> Well, you mentioning that tidbit will probably lead to the Mafia scouring various online lists for compatible townroles, anyways, since they would kind of need to know - might as well share.
Click to expand...

eh, besides sportsmanship, no reason to make their lives easier, is there-

although frankly, considering the usual setup of mafia around these parts, what I worry about is less whether the mob would be eager to snipe out a power role -- like, a power role is most likely dying every night anyway -- and more that we, the town, don't necessarily benefit so much from ferreting out a townie's unclaimed role, so it's possibly for the better that we just refrain and not make the decision-making easier on the mob. like, I wouldn't take it to the extent Seshas does, but, sometimes, restraint is the better part of valor


----------



## Zori

Kokorico is not producing the iffy vibes e did in Cats so that's a good start


----------



## Zori

Also we are brutal
I don't think there was a single mention in thread of rari yet
f espurr gang


----------



## Herbe

re: some quotes


Seshas said:


> I don't know how much stock to put into Herbe's lack of 3p's/6 wolves in their rand list (on second thought it's probably almost completely NAI)


i was just drawing cards asking if the person was mafia aligned or no, it was just y/n questions. please put 0 stock into my tarot card list lmao it was intended way more as a joke


Mr. Ultracool said:


> So, what role/card did you draw for everyone? Interrested in whether that matches up, tbh.


bro i do not remember i was using the upright (Yes)/reversed (No) system. i think mewtini was justice and kokorico? was strength? and lots of swords cards but it honestly does not mean anything i dont think

seshas feels a dash extra paranoid about me than usual and im just :/ about it.  
for the record, so far, jack is the ones whose vibes i most question rn


----------



## Zori

Herbe said:


> seshas feels a dash extra paranoid about me than usual and im just :/ about it.
> for the record, so far, jack is the ones whose vibes i most question rn


Oh, believe me
I was SO much more paranoid about you in Cats
I just didn't really voice it (being dead didn't help with that part)


----------



## qenya

Seshas said:


> Kokorico is not producing the iffy vibes e did in Cats so that's a good start


It's very sweet of you to say so, but I'm fairly sure that's about 70% just because I'm not paying attention enough to come up with anything in any way controversial, haha.



Herbe said:


> for the record, so far, jack is the ones whose vibes i most question rn


Can you talk at all about why? I kind of get what you mean - I looked slightly askance at his post #48, for example, which seemed to be deriving an awfully arbitrary conclusion from virtually no information - but my confidence in that is really very low. Curious whether you have anything more concrete. (I'm going to bed now but I'll swing by early tomorrow to see the answer.)


----------



## Novae




----------



## Novae

im watching hamilton with my family tonight but I’m glad to see revealing my info did spark some discussion! :D


----------



## kyeugh

yeah


----------



## Novae

kyeugh said:


> View attachment 667
> 
> yeah


it’s a minion meme


----------



## Trebek

Seshas said:


> Also we are brutal
> I don't think there was a single mention in thread of rari yet
> f espurr gang


omg

i forgot
im a horrible person

D:


----------



## Mr. Ultracool

Trebek said:


> Seshas said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also we are brutal
> I don't think there was a single mention in thread of rari yet
> f espurr gang
> 
> 
> 
> omg
> 
> i forgot
> im a horrible person
> 
> D:
Click to expand...

It's not to late to change that! I'd bet @rari-teh would agree!


----------



## M&F

I did idly wonder what sorta mob might've singled out rari_teh as a sufficiently primary target, but I wasn't watching y'all go for the last couple games, so I wouldn't know whether rari_teh previously raised hell or whatever-


----------



## Trebek

M&F said:


> whether rari_teh previously raised hell or whatever-


Cats (2019)


----------



## Trebek

but in all honesty, rip rari D:


----------



## Mr. Ultracool

Spoiler: By the way, going to Softclaim now


----------



## Mr. Ultracool

So, yeah. Visit me at night. You could get lucky!


----------



## mewtini

ok it's time for mewtini to catch up and obnoxiously post while she does it <3 i am so used to like ... following the thread like a hawk because i've had nothing better to do in quarantine. imagine having to "catch" "up"

anyway brb


----------



## Trebek

mewtini said:


> ok it's time for mewtini to catch up and obnoxiously post while she does it <3 i am so used to like ... following the thread like a hawk because i've had nothing better to do in quarantine. imagine having to "catch" "up"
> 
> anyway brb


can’t wait to read ur catch up posts and be like “wow this makes so much sense how come i didn’t see it when i read it” to everything


----------



## M&F

Mr. Ultracool said:


> Spoiler: By the way, going to Softclaim now


at first the image wasn't loading so I thought that was like, the lacroix level of softness-


----------



## Trebek

ngl idk why but i just had a great mental image of a terrorist going

“hey imma softclaim”
“bomb”


----------



## Mr. Ultracool

That'd be a repeat of wht happened in TvTropes-Mafia, though, and I doubt anone actually wants that.

Except for, you know, said terrorist.


----------



## Zori

mewtini said:


> ok it's time for mewtini to catch up and obnoxiously post while she does it <3 i am so used to like ... following the thread like a hawk because i've had nothing better to do in quarantine. imagine having to "catch" "up"
> 
> anyway brb


do you have any reads tbh


----------



## mewtini

i have literally not read a post since herbe talked about his tarot deck tbh. i will get back to you


----------



## Zori

*Good:*
[Seshas]

*Cool:*
[M&F/kokorico]
[Mist1422]

*Wooloo:*
[storm]

*Wew:*
[Mr. Ultracool/Trebek]
[Herbe/JackPK/Keldeo]

*Ech:*
[mewtini/kyeugh]
[IndigoEmmy/Stryke/Butterfree/RedneckPhoenix/Zero Moment]


----------



## Zori

Almost certainly a wolf in Wew tier or below
I'm feeling ok about Cool tier though, maybe(?) move Mist down to Wooloo tier?


----------



## Zori

Seshas said:


> Almost certainly a wolf in Wew tier or below


what is this sentence
Towniest wolf probably in Wew tier or maybe Wooloo tier

If the team was MF/koko/Mist/storm I would be shook


----------



## Mr. Ultracool

What is so wolfy about me? Should I claim more than being the Wheel of Fortune and giving out free items to whoever visits me like a friendly neighbourhood PEZ- Dispenser?


----------



## Zori

Mr. Ultracool said:


> What is so wolfy about me? Should I claim more than being the Wheel of Fortune and giving out free items to whoever visits me like a friendly neighbourhood PEZ- Dispenser?


well, you're above all the people who haven't posted so not much


----------



## Mr. Ultracool

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for clarifying!


----------



## JackPK

Mr. Ultracool said:


> What is so wolfy about me? Should I claim more than being the Wheel of Fortune and giving out free items to whoever visits me like a friendly neighbourhood PEZ- Dispenser?


honestly if anything this feels like too much claim too early imo


----------



## Mr. Ultracool

Thing is, if town visits me, these Items could be really, really useful. Like, Guns and stuff.


----------



## mewtini

ok i'm kind of no thoughts/head empty rn because i've had a sort of long day, am not super following the early spec (up through pg 5 atm) but i'll thoughtspost


Mist1422 said:


> I definitely do not have a wincon that relies on [3p] winning not at all


lmfao


Mist1422 said:


> (i may or may not have mechanical info that third parties exist)


it looks like there was some debate later but i don't really think that talking about this, in this way, is necessarily something that makes mist _unlikely_ to be outgroup mafia signaling. maybe it could be NAI but i feel sort of meh about the early claims ... ? (that last comment is also true of ultracool, upon skim)


Mist1422 said:


> to clarify because it's probably important
> 
> I have mechanical info that a non-group scum exists, so either outgroup or third party
> 
> I'm not informed which or anything about them


am i missing something? why would non-group scum imply third party? (or do you just mean scum as in non-town)


Seshas said:


> The only role I can think of for Mist that's not just straight up "Informed VT" is outgroup/3rd party
> If Mist is Mafia, he has a role that implies 3p/outgroup, which is reasonable ig?
> (A role like Mafia Cop/Doctor for example)





Seshas said:


> Seshas said:
> 
> 
> 
> The only role I can think of for Mist that's not just straight up "Informed VT" is outgroup/3rd party
> If Mist is Mafia, he has a role that implies 3p/outgroup, which is reasonable ig?
> (A role like Mafia Cop/Doctor for example)
> 
> 
> 
> tl;dr Mist town 80% of the time
> (just ignore the fact that that's 5% above rand)
Click to expand...

i like seshas speculating on mist, i don't know if i agree with the final conclusion? i'm taking the first post as a joke (considering mist's role/my role in tvt lmfao) but i don't think that this makes mist look especially towny to me, and i'm not even sure why the early reveal would make sense as informed town ig


Trebek said:


> im also between town and third party, but my gut wants to say that it seems just a little too obvious for mist to be outgroup? like, would an outgroup mafia really go about it in that way if our immediate response would be to ask if they are outgroup?


mentioned earlier but pulled this quote to say that i disagree and think that it could go either way


JackPK said:


> M&F said:
> 
> 
> 
> (protip: as far as the record goes, that doesn't work and gets you lynched, apparently-)
> 
> 
> 
> worked for a good long while for mewt in tvt tbh
Click to expand...




M&F said:


> that was just oversharing, not fast or early-


i claimed when my wincon became impossible, not sure what you guys are talking about tbh tbh


----------



## mewtini

jesus that was long sorry


----------



## mewtini

Mr. Ultracool said:


> Thing is, if town visits me, these Items could be really, really useful. Like, Guns and stuff.


can't tell if earnest town or something or a weird lure fsr


----------



## mewtini

mewtini said:


> i'm taking the first post as a joke


*mist's first post about 3p, sorry

btw we already know that mist isn't just informed VT/mysterious informant


----------



## Zori

inb4 Mr. Ultracool is a Town role that kills all their visitors

In any case I think whether or not people visit ultracool should be a judgement call on their part
Mafia will almost certainly put a Watcher on them if they have one, but I haven't ever seen it here so they probably don't


----------



## Stryke

i was at work but now i'm not.
i read through the first half of the thread, got lost immediately, gave up, and then just decided to search my name on this thread instead so i now know no one wants to lynch me which is cool, i appreciate that guys


----------



## Zori

Stryke said:


> i was at work but now i'm not.
> i read through the first half of the thread, got lost immediately, gave up, and then just decided to search my name on this thread instead so i now know no one wants to lynch me which is cool, i appreciate that guys


_we are need you insight tho_


----------



## mewtini

Spoiler: long, catchup cont






Mr. Ultracool said:


> Well, you mentioning that tidbit will probably lead to the Mafia scouring various online lists for compatible townroles, anyways, since they would kind of need to know - might as well share.


uhhhhh? >:/ 

i don't really know how to read ultracool considering that they were lurky in tvt/cats/snomfia, though i've said before (and believe) that his posting, even if limited, tends to be fairly AI eventually. i just like ... can't tell because i keep reading his posts as scummy and then thinking maybe their sentiments are too overt to be said with scummy intentions, but hh


Herbe said:


> for the record, so far, jack is the ones whose vibes i most question rn


curious about why tbh? looking through his iso it looks like he's like. hamilposted, memeposted, and done pretty basic speculation about the wolf/villa numbers and mist-talk


kokorico said:


> Can you talk at all about why? I kind of get what you mean - I looked slightly askance at his post #48, for example, which seemed to be deriving an awfully arbitrary conclusion from virtually no information


arbitrary how? the conclusion he reached involved like, taking a standard scum:town ratio and factoring in the possibility of an outgroup since mist brought up the latter


M&F said:


> I did idly wonder what sorta mob might've singled out rari_teh as a sufficiently primary target, but I wasn't watching y'all go for the last couple games, so I wouldn't know whether rari_teh previously raised hell or whatever-


hahaha. i think rari might make sense as a scarekill given her performance in cats tbh.


mfw going through the thread and talking literally just results in me going "this seems NAI"

preliminary readslist coming soon i guess but i kind of don't have strong feelings on more than 2 or 3 people at the moment


----------



## JackPK

re: askance glances at my mech-spec: I have already admitted overreliance on mech-spec is part of my normal play dating back to the old tcodf meta, and I'm trying (and uh, often failing, it seems) to change that now that I'm finally in a game where I've lived through N0

I have been juggling back and forth between work and reading this thread for most of the evening but when I'm done with work in an hour or two I will make my first ever(!) attempt at new-tcodf-meta-style reads and tierlist (wish me luck)


----------



## Zori

I don't use readlists as a way to present my thoughts, I use them as a way to organize my thoughts tbh
The only reason I make readlists is because they make me more carefully evaluate the reasons I'm townreading a person in comparison with other people and certain limes from other games
Don't make a readlist if it doesn't help tbh


----------



## Zori

Seshas said:


> The only reason I make readlists is because they make me more carefully evaluate the reasons I'm townreading a person in comparison with other people and certain limes from other games


Limes? this isn't a fruit market
I intended to say "lines"


----------



## mewtini

i'll have to properly revisit tomorrow (probably late because holiday etc) tbh, i am kind of head empty and exhausted right now :'D

short thoughts for now are that seshas seems pretty typically solvy (i liked that she poked at some reads surrounding mist), that ultracool's posting is kind of bizarre especially wrt his meta, and that MF sounds markedly different from tvt in a way that makes me want to townlean her despite not really knowing her extended metagame. also not immediately scumreading kokorico like i did in cats so maybe that is also something?


----------



## Zori

*Wew:*
[Mr. Ultracool/Trebek]
[Herbe/*mewtini*/JackPK/Keldeo]
*................../\
Ech:............|*
[kyeugh/mewtini]
[IndigoEmmy/Stryke/Butterfree/RedneckPhoenix/Zero Moment]

tbh


----------



## mewtini

what differentiated those two ech tiers tbh? is it just that skylar and i had posted at all lmfao


----------



## Zori

mewtini said:


> what differentiated those two ech tiers tbh? is it just that skylar and i had posted at all lmfao


probably


----------



## mewtini

now that i'm thinking about it i think that the pure fact of ultracool posting more this game is probably townier than not since riding with his existing lurky meta is probably easy enough to do. that doesn't account for the actual content that he's posted though


----------



## kyeugh

hard claim town. go ahead and take me off your ech list now tbh


----------



## Butterfree

Hello, everyone! I too have been watching the Hamilton proshoot and now it's four AM and I still need to draw a thing so this will be a brief pop-in

I have a hunch about Mist's role and I don't think they're third party/outgroup.

Jack's post speculating on the number of scum struck me as the kind of thing that'd be scumread on MU, but I'm not convinced that it actually indicates he's scum since yeah, it's just classic TCoDf play, really?

Ultracool's claim seems pretty sincere to me; I can't really imagine why he'd make this claim as scum given any villager who targets him tonight could easily disprove it, and if he _genuinely does_ have a role giving out items as scum, that seems a pretty strange setup choice and also risky to claim immediately unless the mafia have some really specific roles going on.

No one else has especially stood out to me so far.


----------



## M&F

I was wondering why I had ten alerts and then I realized mewtini was reading through the thread-


----------



## mewtini

semi off-topic and maybe i am simply anxious or reading into this too much but if me posting a lot is sincerely a point of pain i can try to stop, it just is what feels best to me :'D i didn't really think twice about it in tvt but since then i feel like people are maybe sincerely annoyed about it, um, so i'm sorry


----------



## JackPK

OK here's a haphazard attempt at trying to make reads

*green vibes

me*
me

*good vibes*
M&F - entrance via minion meme notwithstanding, everything else has seemed nice and solvey in a careful, tempered, thoughtful way

*i liked a post or two but not enough to call it full-on good vibes yet*
Trebek, kokorico - I liked their pushback on Seshas' slight shade of Herbe in #108/#115
Herbe - I like his calm reaction in #123 to Seshas' slight shade

*neutral vibes

neutral*
Mewtini - her short thoughts so far seem fine but I don't feel any particular feelings one way or the other yet
Butterfree - her post in #169 feels extremely in character but I don't think that's an indicator, her Butterfree-ish-ness is probably strong regardless of her faction

*unsorted, not enough posts, pls post more*
Stryke - although tbf "lurking until he has something concrete to talk about" fits my impression of his general gameplay
storm - posted once during Hamilton talk and none since then, pls post again :(

*no posts head empty*
IndigoEmmy
RedneckPhoenix
Zero Moment

*pale orange vibes 
(I almost left this tier as part of "neutral vibes" but I think it's subtly worth differentiating)

play seems different than i'm used to but idk how to read that fact*
kyeugh - much quieter than normal so far, somehow both less memey and less solvey at once
Keldeo - seemed like his usual solveyness/pressing folks in #70 but not so much since then
(probably these both are indicators more of "amount of time able to devote to game" than alignment tbh)

*i feel weird about unsolicited D1 claims*
Mist1422 - idk where to sort their claim, could be almost anything trying to make us think they're almost anything

*red vibes

very lightly vague bad vibes*
Seshas - their slightly shading Herbe in #101 was pretty ??? to me, and tbh I still don't know that I really follow the logic even after it was explained (also I just don't think I'm reading Herbe's post in as much depth as Seshas is in the first place? and I can't tell if that's me being a shallow reader or Seshas jumping onto a nothingburger)

*bad vibes*
Mr. Ultracool - in addition to me feeling weird about unsolicited D1 claims, I also don't like him in #116 pushing M&F to share rolespec about Mist after consensus solidified that that would be counterproductive

other notes/reactions:



Mist1422 said:


> ampharos is an admin on MU
> the admin color is red
> *Seshas* is mafia


wait this post was clearly joking but I didn't see you unvote, are you _actually_ voting Seshas?

if so, I think this is currently the only vote on the table, which makes me a lil uncomfy



Seshas said:


> The I think it's untrustworthy but I trust it anyways bit sounds like someone who saw an outgroup/3p signal and is defending and hedging at the same time
> Although it is pretty weak, I did actually catch a wolf using a stronger example of this recently (with a lot more evidence to connect the dots)


I don't want to push any more on this since the subject has been dropped for the past like 40ish posts, but I'm still not sure I understand and idk it might just be me being stupid   please elaborate more if you think it'll help me, or just ignore this otherwise



Seshas said:


> I don't use readlists as a way to present my thoughts, I use them as a way to organize my thoughts tbh
> The only reason I make readlists is because they make me more carefully evaluate the reasons I'm townreading a person in comparison with other people and certain limes from other games
> Don't make a readlist if it doesn't help tbh


honestly after rereading the whole thread and making this readlist, it made me realize I had thoughts I didn't even know I had before I started actually sorting. readlist definitely helped, 10/10, would recommend

@Stryke @storm @kyeugh @Keldeo you've all seemed quieter than I hoped/expected, pls talk more so I can attempt to read you better

@IndigoEmmy @RedneckPhoenix @Zero Moment unless i'm mistaken y'all haven't posted yet even once, pls talk so I can read you at all


----------



## JackPK

me: posts a wall of text and then immediately re-reads it combing for things to regret

"very lightly vague bad vibes" is in fact so light that I'm still wishywashy on whether I should have put it under pale orange or red vibes tbh. if I had an edit button I would probably move it back and forth between the two tiers about a dozen times before I fall asleep tbh


----------



## M&F

mewtini said:


> semi off-topic and maybe i am simply anxious or reading into this too much but if me posting a lot is sincerely a point of pain i can try to stop, it just is what feels best to me :'D i didn't really think twice about it in tvt but since then i feel like people are maybe sincerely annoyed about it, um, so i'm sorry


eh, your roughly three posts so far are fine, although yes, after tvt I feel like any effort on anyon's part towards post control is welcome-

we're doing fine if we're clocking out at ten pages on the first (real-time) day, at least, although it seems like stryke is already lost in the sauce-


----------



## mewtini

to be quite honest, if i think too hard about my postcount i just end up getting really nervous and not posting at all. that is actually why i post so often (and my low postcount so far is just that i've been busy today/haven't had the ability to do more)


----------



## JackPK

JackPK said:


> Keldeo - seemed like his usual solveyness/pressing folks in #70 but not so much since then


oh it just occurred to me to ISO Keldeo and he literally hasn't posted since #70, so that is buttressing my gut feeling that this is more an indicator of lack of time rather than alignment


----------



## Trebek

mewtini said:


> to be quite honest, if i think too hard about my postcount i just end up getting really nervous and not posting at all. that is actually why i post so often (and my low postcount so far is just that i've been busy today/haven't had the ability to do more)


honestly this is also me but my response to it is normally to clam up in the first place oof


----------



## Keldeo

I think my highest confidence read right now is that Mr. Ultracool is town, for similar reasons to the ones Butterfree stated - he seems genuine specifically in claiming his role, in a way that I think he was in TVTropes and was not in Cats. Compare the way he drip-fed information about the swapper role in TVTropes to the way he softed and then claimed. 

I think Seshas's solving seems pretty similar to how they were in TVTropes - the MF/Mist associative read in particular reminds me of that game. They've done a decent amount of thinking out loud. I guess I like their tone and the way they put together thoughts, because this isn't actually that much but it feels good enough for now. 

I feel like multiple people are seeing something I don't in townreading MF. I wanna be cool. 

Jack has felt somewhat self-conscious about mechanics posting, to which I want to say - it's all okay, right, post however you want to post! 

--

@Trebek, do you have any thoughts :O

@Herbe, what do you think of Jack's reads list?

@Seshas, is your MF townread based on that associative with town Mist? Also, can you talk to me about how your Herbe thoughts intersect with thinking that Mist is town, I don't totally understand?

@mewtini, what would help you feel more "head full" this game? Can you tell me more about how MF seems different to you than in TVT? 

@Butterfree, what made you want to point out Jack's post about the scumteam numbers as something that people on MU might want to scumread / can you elaborate on how that line of thought emerged? I guess I personally don't take any issue with it, and I thought kokorico was the one who pointed it out originally. Maybe I'm just missing something?

@JackPK, I have some questions about your reads! Can you elaborate on why you think Seshas's shade of Herbe makes them suspicious, considering that they kind of ended up disavowing that shade - if they were jumping on Herbe, I'd expect something different? You seem to be hinging some of your green reads (Trebek, koko, Herbe) on their responses to this shade, do you have anything in their posts on their own that you like? For Mr. Ultracool, I don't think role speculation and claiming are alignment-indicative; i.e. they may be "anti-town" but do not make him "not town" imo. Also, is there something specific in MF's posting that you don't think she could replicate as mafia?

--



JackPK said:


> oh it just occurred to me to ISO Keldeo and he literally hasn't posted since #70, so that is buttressing my gut feeling that this is more an indicator of lack of time rather than alignment


Yeah, I'm trying to play a low-key day 1 so the mafia don't kill me before I can activate my ability that tells me all their names.


----------



## Keldeo

That wording was pretty poor, sorry. By ability I meant role, riffing off that joke claim VM made in TVTropes. 

Please enjoy a friend:


----------



## storm

sorry for not posting!! I tried to at least read and keep up but in hindsight doing that with a headache was a bad idea,,

this is my first try at mafia in like. over five years so I'm also just nervous and don't know how much I can contribute, especially with like. the close reading?? 

I'm feeling better today tho so I'll try to make some sense of the thread now!


----------



## qenya

Mr. Ultracool said:


> What is so wolfy about me? Should I claim more than being the Wheel of Fortune and giving out free items to whoever visits me like a friendly neighbourhood PEZ- Dispenser?


Eek! Big side-eye at this, given that you also fakeclaimed an obscure convoluted role relating to an items mechanic in Cats (2019). Tbqh, if it were later in the Day, I would immediately vote for you just based on that. And I definitely think anyone with a nonlethal town PR would be foolish to target you toNight.

mewt, your postcount is fine! When M&F said they got a lot of notifications from you I think they were talking about reactions. At least that's where all _my_ notifications from you came, haha. It's actually more helpful than not because it gives me a vague idea of how you're thinking.

In the interests of transparency, I received a message from the GM last night:


Vipera Magnifica said:


> bread
> milk
> eggs
> baking soda
> cilantro
> trash bags
> hummus


I _think_ he's just making fun of me for temporarily dumping my preliminary notes in my role PM, but I can never be quite sure in a game deliberately advertised as containing shenanigans. So if that means anything to anyone else then, well, there you go.

I share Jack's concerns about the uncharacteristically low postcount from Keldeo and kyeugh. I don't know how comfortable I am reading anything more into it than "they haven't really had time to get into the game yet", but it's on my radar.



JackPK said:


> re: askance glances at my mech-spec: I have already admitted overreliance on mech-spec is part of my normal play dating back to the old tcodf meta, and I'm trying (and uh, often failing, it seems) to change that now that I'm finally in a game where I've lived through N0


This makes sense, sorry to have drawn undue attention to it! Looking forward to finally playing with you :)


----------



## Vipera Magnifica

kokorico said:


> In the interests of transparency, I received a message from the GM last night:
> 
> 
> Vipera Magnifica said:
> 
> 
> 
> bread
> milk
> eggs
> baking soda
> cilantro
> trash bags
> hummus
> 
> 
> 
> I _think_ he's just making fun of me for temporarily dumping my preliminary notes in my role PM, but I can never be quite sure in a game deliberately advertised as containing shenanigans. So if that means anything to anyone else then, well, there you go.
Click to expand...

mate that was a joke


----------



## Vipera Magnifica

Keldeo said:


> That wording was pretty poor, sorry. By ability I meant role, riffing off that joke claim VM made in TVTropes.
> 
> Please enjoy a friend:


*Keldeo has won. Role PMs and actions will be posted soon.*


----------



## Herbe

god thats a good fucking friend



JackPK said:


> nothingburger


i love this word so very much

re: ppl asking me about my jack side-eye, it was p much post 48 and 77 that i was ehh at, one of my favorite things to do as scum is to mechspec with no real conclusion (or sometimes real conclusions but not super relevant necessarily to wolfhunting) so that just gave me pause, and i wanted to think it out out loud. im ok with jack now though, he can vibe


Keldeo said:


> @Herbe, what do you think of Jack's reads list?


i want to say i love the mf read but i just love mf in general so my townread on her might be biased
(i have to keep in mind that i also have eternal town!mewtini bias so i have to actively work against that to look at her)
idk i think jack made some fair assumptions and nothing really stands out to me that i disagree Especially with, i guess if i made a list to organize my thoughts id figure out better where i disagree or not


----------



## Herbe

i woke up at 7 am and i have no idea what the fuck to do with all my time i have now. usually i spend the next 8 hours sleeping. herbe is conscious, what will he do?


----------



## Zori

Herbe said:


> i woke up at 7 am and i have no idea what the fuck to do with all my time i have now. usually i spend the next 8 hours sleeping. herbe is conscious, what will he do?


Start rewatching a 100-hour game playthrough
that's what I'm doing tbh


----------



## Zori

For Keldeo:
In addition to the interactions with Mist who I think is rather unlikely to be ingroup, M&F just seems way more relaxed here, as opposed to TvT where they were occasionally spitting wallposts full of content and trope links and stuff


----------



## Mr. Ultracool

kokorico said:


> And I definitely think anyone with a nonlethal town PR would be foolish to target you toNight.


Why? My roles only power is to give out items that allow one-time uses of several useful, traditional PR-Powers like investigating someones alignment, nightkilling somebody, healing somebody at night or doubling your vote!


----------



## Zori

Mr. Ultracool said:


> Why? My roles only power is to give out items that allow one-time uses of several useful, traditional PR-Powers like investigating someones alignment, nightkilling somebody, healing somebody at night or doubling your vote!


Do I get one if I delete you from the timespace continuum


----------



## Zori

More importantly, can your power be roleblocked?


----------



## storm

doubling your vote? that seems really powerful, is that a legit kind of ability/item in mafia usually?


----------



## Herbe

storm said:


> doubling your vote? that seems really powerful, is that a legit kind of ability/item in mafia usually?


oh no, that's super easy! it works like this: *kokorico, kokorico*


----------



## Mr. Ultracool

No, you have to message the GM prior to doubling your vote. Also, I'm pretty sure it can't be blocked y blocking me, as it's triggered by another role visiting me...


----------



## Herbe

(*unvote*)


----------



## Zori

storm said:


> doubling your vote? that seems really powerful, is that a legit kind of ability/item in mafia usually?


I'd say it's not uncommon on other sites


----------



## storm

right, thanks!!


----------



## Butterfree

Keldeo said:


> @Butterfree, what made you want to point out Jack's post about the scumteam numbers as something that people on MU might want to scumread / can you elaborate on how that line of thought emerged? I guess I personally don't take any issue with it, and I thought kokorico was the one who pointed it out originally. Maybe I'm just missing something?


Somewhere on MU, either in my champions game or in one of the games I read in preparation for the champions game, I remember people (or at least one person, by multiple people) getting jumped on for posting this kind of mechanics speculation, on the basis that that's just a really easy thing for mafia to post to seem to be contributing without having to manufacture plausible reads or 'real' solving. The post made me think of that immediately when I first read it, before anyone else remarked on it. But, as I said, I don't think that it's _actually_ alignment-indicative.


----------



## Stryke

so from what i gather, mist and mr ultracool are in the hotseat at the moment (i guess its not even really that hot though because no ones really trying to push a lynch train on either of them, we're just discussing... so, lukewarm-seat, i suppose?). as a perpetrator of thread-lurkery myself, mr ultracool doesnt seem too off to me; what hes said seems kind of in line with what id expect someone who normally lurks attempting to contribute more, based off my own experiences. im not too sure what to make of mist though; i guess of all the things he couldve revealed, revealing that theres a third party isnt that bad, because its pretty vague, and honestly a bit expected, given the nature of tcod games. but still, to shoehorn that into a joke is sus as hell, especially one made on the second page of posts. i guess its useful info to have, but at this early stage in the game, i dont see how knowledge of that would really help or hurt town, so it just seems a bit unnecessary


----------



## mewtini

@Keldeo my “head empty” is just that so far i’ve only been able to put like 5% of the time into this game that i normally do and i feel weirdly lost having to catch up on even 10 pages, i’ll fix that when i get to deepread later today; i only managed to skim so far because i didn’t want to go too long without saying anything!

 in re: MF it is kind of flimsy and the townlean from me is largely “she seems different from the game where she was mafia,” but i remember her being pretty unwilling to talk about the actual game, beyond echoing others’ thoughts and making, like, long joke/trope posts that didn’t do very much in terms of content contribution


----------



## mewtini

another thing with MF that might just be resultant of busyness level is that she pretty much never engaged in realtime conversation in tvt, lmao


----------



## kyeugh

just skimmed back over the thread, some thoughts rq:


Seshas said:


> With 18 players I think we're looking at 4 wolves and some assorted outgroups/3rd parties (unless VM usually has a different ratio)
> just to deny all outrageous derpclears w/r/t that


based on this and other mech spec it seems like people are assuming there’s probably an outgroup and i’m not really sold on that being the case. it’s definitely a possibility we should be alert to and i understand it being brought up in the mist discussion, but at the same time i feel like (and correct me if i’m wrong) that outgroups existing at all, particularly with more than one member, is rarer than not and we’ve kind of collectively been hyperaware of that possibility since tvt. i’m going to personally be assuming there’s at most one outgroup member until there’s reason to suggest otherwise, though i will keep my eyes peeled.


kokorico said:


> Big side-eye at this, given that you also fakeclaimed an obscure convoluted role relating to an items mechanic in Cats (2019). Tbqh, if it were later in the Day, I would immediately vote for you just based on that. And I definitely think anyone with a nonlethal town PR would be foolish to target you toNight.


 i disagree with this. for one thing, ultracool made his claim in cats out of necessity when he was staring down the barrel of the gun, so i don’t really think it’s fair to compare these situations. this claim is also pretty easily tested—he even said that he doesn’t believe that he can’t be blocked, so he can’t even hide behind that defense if it fails. also, assuming ultracool is telling the truth, i think it makes sense for him to just claim straight out the door—his role is potent but useless if no one is visiting him. i understand some degree of suspicion but this reaction seems far to me. 

reads-wise, all things considered, i feel pretty good about uc for now. i can already feel myself falling into keldeo’s and bfree’s pockets as usual. i agree with keldeo that i don’t quite see mf as towny yet, but mewtini’s observation about her realtiming is something.


----------



## kyeugh




----------



## JackPK

Keldeo said:


> post #178


now _there's _the Keldeo pushing/solveyness that I was hoping and expecting to see!



Keldeo said:


> @JackPK, I have some questions about your reads! Can you elaborate on why you think Seshas's shade of Herbe makes them suspicious, considering that they kind of ended up disavowing that shade - if they were jumping on Herbe, I'd expect something different? You seem to be hinging some of your green reads (Trebek, koko, Herbe) on their responses to this shade, do you have anything in their posts on their own that you like? For Mr. Ultracool, I don't think role speculation and claiming are alignment-indicative; i.e. they may be "anti-town" but do not make him "not town" imo. Also, is there something specific in MF's posting that you don't think she could replicate as mafia?


Hm, I think most of my sideeying at Seshas is that I really don't understand what they were going for there. It seemed to me like it was more likely than not to be scum!Seshas trying to stir up doubt, then backing off when that attempt didn't work — or, I guess, it's also possible it could have been town!Seshas finding something they legit thought was reasonable, then backing off when no one else took it as reasonable. (I don't mean to hedge here, this is just to say: as I said before, this is only a very slightly more-red-than-neutral vibe for me, I will be more comfortable solidifying it as either more red or less red when I have more data to process it alongside.)

On my reread I didn't see anything from Trebek/koko/Herbe/Seshas that particularly spoke to me one way or the other besides that whole interaction, so if we snipped out that interaction, all four of them would go in the neutral pile with mewt and Butterfree. As my label noted, the reads on Trebek/koko/Herbe aren't outright "good" so much as "I liked one thing but don't feel comfortable putting them all the way into 'good' yet"

About M&F: I agree with Seshas in #187 that she seems pretty relaxed in a genuine-feeling way. I don't know whether or not she _could_ replicate this sense as mafia, but at least compared to what I remember of her in TVTropes, she _didn't_ replicate this sense in that game, so that's enough for me for the moment.



storm said:


> doubling your vote? that seems really powerful, is that a legit kind of ability/item in mafia usually?


As far as I've run into it, it's usually just someone's entire inherent role (i.e. "doublevoter"), and I haven't seen it as an item before. But especially since this game was advertised as "shenanigans", it could potentially be an item.



kyeugh said:


> post #201


ah and there's the kyeughposting I was also hoping and expecting to see! You make a good point re: outgroup. I'm still not convinced I agree with you and Keldeo about Ultracool, but like you said, it's easily tested so I'm willing to set him aside for toDay and wait til toMorrow to sort him.


----------



## JackPK

JackPK said:


> About M&F: I agree with Seshas in #187 that she seems pretty relaxed in a genuine-feeling way. I don't know whether or not she _could_ replicate this sense as mafia, but at least compared to what I remember of her in TVTropes, she _didn't_ replicate this sense in that game, so that's enough for me for the moment.


Oh, another postscript re:M&F: In TVT I often could not really follow her line of thinking in her walls of text, and in retrospect I'm of the opinion that may have been an intentional effort by scum!her to obfuscate and confuse in order to look thoughtful without actually being thoughtful. By contrast, in this game I'm easily understanding what she's been saying, so that also inclines me to read her as towny.


----------



## mewtini

skylar hasn’t memeposted so i think she is scum.


----------



## Mr. Ultracool

Wait, we're supposed to post memes? Erm...



Spoiler:


----------



## M&F

I do have to admit, as has been pointed out: if I sound more relaxed/productive this game, I'd definitely consider the saner game pace a major factor towards it, besides that I'm also now off classes and stuff

anyways, let's see... for one thing, I can't say I dig jack's vibes so far. the mechspec's eh, but I'm sensing this colossal countertunnel on seshas for putting him on the spot and I daresay it's not the look of the season

I'm not sure what to make of mr. ultracool's claim; at the risk of starting to sound like my tvt mafia self again, I might have to go reread some posts. in particular, I need to verif on exactly how spontaneous that was, so I can best figure out where to draw the line between "oversharing, but not in any fantastically alignment indicative fashion" and "making shit up hastily due to being on the spot". (that this is apparently similar to a previous fakeclaim might lend credence to the latter, but then, I suppose it's not very charitable to count on the level of low imagination needed to attempt the same fakeclaim that has very recently not worked. WIFOM, I guess?)

(can confirm, in any case, that doublevoting is a reasonably common power in this here meta too. it historically hasn't really been a meaningful power considering that most lynching was done in barely contested bandwagons or not at all -- but I suppose it'd be pretty exciting to see how it handles now that the day game is livelier. assuming it actually exists in this setup, that is)

activity levels strike me as a bit of a sketchy thing to read off of at the moment; sure, do keep track, but I mean, we're just past the half of D1. mafia's a time commitment and all, but sometimes people are just busy/tired/elsewhere for one single day. 's more important to observe long-term patterns of inactivity than simply going "hey you ain't posted yet"


----------



## kyeugh

mewtini said:


> skylar hasn’t memeposted so i think she is scum.


80% of my posts not counting this one are memes >:(( of varying quality, perhaps, but hey.  they can't all be bangers.


----------



## Vipera Magnifica

*24 hours remain in Day One.*


----------



## Trebek

ok so i just went back and reread through the thread and here are the vibes im noticing thus far:
(if i say slightly contradictory things its bc im continually updating this post as im reading through stuff and want to just post sort of my Live Reaction to the thread)



Spoiler: ViBe ChEcK



im fine with believing mist about the existence of a third party, but i have a feeling that mist's 35 is just a meme. not going to speculate further about this bc i dont want to get stabbed / i think that this speculation will be more useful when more mechanics are revealed

i mentioned this earlier, but i vibe with herbe's 41 and i dont really see it as hedgeing/something to get scumread over (although admittedly i also dont fault seshas for reading into it differently than i did)

as far as ultracool goes, i'm not sure how i feel. on the one hand, if hes telling the truth and we can get bonuses from visiting him, thats amazing and i applaud/support him coming forth with it D1. on the other hand, part of me is wondering if its too good to be true? like, what happens if mafia visit him - do they get upgrades as well? i guess part of me is just paranoid about something crazy like a w!paranoid gun owner? although to be fair i dont think that would line up with a Wheel of Fortune flavorclaim. i guess at the end of the day im townleanling uc, and glad that hes posting, but idk if i trust it enough to support a mass visitation to him N1, if that makes sense? brain confused
(jack's 150 i think sums up how i feel about this: its a ballsy claim regardless of wether its a v!wheel of fortune or a w!wheel of fotune, wether or not thats a good thing is yet to be decided)

i agree with seshas's 121 about koko vibes - i admittedly am very bad at figuring out early vibes, but i think comparing this early game with cats makes me want to gut TR em

idk how i feel about people side-eyeing jack's mechspec: this may just be a personal preference / a misinformed gut reaction to how people talk in thread, but i always get sorta weirded out when someone makes mechspec posts and then other people side-eye them over people who aren't actually contributing? this may just be bias on my part bc people who dont post also aren't typically the center of discussion, but its just something ive noticed. just feels weird to see someone getting side-eyed for what very well could be a genuine desire to contribute to thread, even if the only way they can do so is mechspec
(this is also probably just personal bias bc i feel much more comfortable making mechspec posts than vibespec posts/have a tendency to want to TR people just for contributing, so i probably just need to get over myself tbh)
(obviously, if someone only mechspecs for the entire game, thats a different story, but it seems like a weird thing to jump on D1 - again might just be me)

in re - start of M&F's 207: i dont really see jack's side-eyeing of seshas as a "collosal countertunnel," especially since as far as i see it, he posted about seshas in his big vibe post, and then brought it up a second time specifically when Keldeo asked him about it? i might be missing something in the ISO here, but i dont see jack's vibes as a negative thing rn


so im posting this without heavily editing it which is probably a mistake, but i would rather get my thoughts out sooner than later. i am around in real-time tho if any of what i just said doesn't make sense / people want to talk about other things! (i would say that if i didnt mention it in this post, i am probably Head Empty about it? but that could have been bc i passed over it while rereading, so i will gladly go look at stuff again if it comes up in conversation

(this is also a very unpolished post just bc im sorta trying out something new here: i was very disappointed with how i played in Snomfia and don't want to repeat that playstyle)


----------



## Mr. Ultracool

Trebek said:


> like, what happens if mafia visit him - do they get upgrades as well?


Yes. Unfortunately, they do.


----------



## Trebek

Mr. Ultracool said:


> Trebek said:
> 
> 
> 
> like, what happens if mafia visit him - do they get upgrades as well?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. Unfortunately, they do.
Click to expand...

interesting :(


----------



## Mr. Ultracool

Well, half of the items are worthless for Maf, so I figured it was worth the risk


----------



## Trebek

Mr. Ultracool said:


> Well, half of the items are worthless for Maf, so I figured it was worth the risk


thats actually a very valid point :o


----------



## Keldeo

I think it'd be helpful at this stage in the day if people placed some votes! Even if you're not sure about where to vote, you can always change it later.

I guess I'm being a bit hypocritical here because I actually have zero idea where I want to vote. I suppose I didn't like kokorico jumping on Ultracool but I thought eir VM grocery list thing was hilarious. I'll revisit things later tonight.


----------



## qenya

kyeugh said:


> i disagree with this. for one thing, ultracool made his claim in cats out of necessity when he was staring down the barrel of the gun, so i don’t really think it’s fair to compare these situations. this claim is also pretty easily tested—he even said that he doesn’t believe that he can’t be blocked, so he can’t even hide behind that defense if it fails. also, assuming ultracool is telling the truth, i think it makes sense for him to just claim straight out the door—his role is potent but useless if no one is visiting him. i understand some degree of suspicion but this reaction seems far to me.


I think all of this relies on assumptions that aren't necessarily true unless you already believe the claim. The claim is well outside the realm of ordinary roles; so is the other plausible alternative, that he's some sort of antitown role that _wants to be targeted by as many people as possible_ for some reason. Given that, I don't see how you can say with certainty that standard assumptions, like that he doesn't feel any sort of external pressure to claim now, or even that he cares whether or not his claim has been falsified by D2, apply.

I could buy the argument that he considers his role to be useless if he _doesn't_ claim (although this seems less likely with the revelation that the mafia can benefit from it too), but conversely, believing his claim requires you to believe that he happened to rand a role that's both extremely unusual and extremely similar to something he's fakeclaimed in the past. I accept that both possibilities require a certain amount of suspension of disbelief, so if you or anyone can think of a plausible third explanation I'd like to hear it, but right now it seems to me that believing him requires more brain-acrobatics than not.



Trebek said:


> idk how i feel about people side-eyeing jack's mechspec: this may just be a personal preference / a misinformed gut reaction to how people talk in thread, but i always get sorta weirded out when someone makes mechspec posts and then other people side-eye them over people who aren't actually contributing? this may just be bias on my part bc people who dont post also aren't typically the center of discussion, but its just something ive noticed. just feels weird to see someone getting side-eyed for what very well could be a genuine desire to contribute to thread, even if the only way they can do so is mechspec


For what it's worth, my reaction to Jack's post was not _because it was mechspec_ but _because he presented a conclusion that wasn't really supported by any evidence_. It seemed like he'd just pulled a figure for the size of the scumteam out of nowhere. I don't really still consider it a concern (he explained he was just struggling to think of something relevant to say, and having been in that position before I can totally empathise), but I wanted to clear up where the suspicion came from in the first place.

---

Aside from the above, my thoughts pretty much align with Trebek's longpost above, to the degree that I don't think it would be a good use of time to just type it all out again in my own words. The only think I can think of to add is that I feel pretty uneasy that only about half of the playerlist have said enough for anyone to have any sort of read on us. I get that, in a vacuum, low postcount doesn't necessarily mean much and real-life time pressures are often a thing, but it seems slightly bizarre for that to apply to six to eight people at once. Then again, maybe the last few games have just given me an unrealistically high expectation for how much people talk in MU-style mafia!

Also, @Butterfree, if/when you have time I'd be curious what you think about Jack's tierlist - is there anything you particularly agree or disagree with?


----------



## Keldeo

Mm... kokorico, I think looking at it like "Mr. Ultracool's claim includes items here, and his fake claim included items in Cats" is being overly reductive. I don't see why VM wouldn't include unusual or item-based roles in this game - in fact, I'd expect him to make unusual roles. 

This might come down to a difference in what we perceive as plausible role-wise, where we probably won't budge each other by discussing it further. And that's fine, I don't have much interest in arguing this further unless you disagree with my belief that his claim is self-resolving and he would not be a good vote today (or vig shot tonight, etc.) 

I'd describe the proportion of inactive people here as pretty ordinary.


----------



## Trebek

kokorico said:


> Trebek said:
> 
> 
> 
> idk how i feel about people side-eyeing jack's mechspec: this may just be a personal preference / a misinformed gut reaction to how people talk in thread, but i always get sorta weirded out when someone makes mechspec posts and then other people side-eye them over people who aren't actually contributing? this may just be bias on my part bc people who dont post also aren't typically the center of discussion, but its just something ive noticed. just feels weird to see someone getting side-eyed for what very well could be a genuine desire to contribute to thread, even if the only way they can do so is mechspec
> 
> 
> 
> For what it's worth, my reaction to Jack's post was not _because it was mechspec_ but _because he presented a conclusion that wasn't really supported by any evidence_. It seemed like he'd just pulled a figure for the size of the scumteam out of nowhere. I don't really still consider it a concern (he explained he was just struggling to think of something relevant to say, and having been in that position before I can totally empathise), but I wanted to clear up where the suspicion came from in the first place.
Click to expand...

oh, that makes total sense! my reaction was less of a targeted reaction to specific people than it was a general bad vibe


----------



## Trebek

er, weird vibe is more accurate: the vibe isnt enough to warrant scumleans as far as i see it


----------



## M&F

for what it's worth, I can attest that genuinely randing a role you just recently fakeclaimed _very much happens_ and it is terrible- I guess that just brings me back to the whole WIFOM on whether it makes sense for mr. ultracool to fall back on a fakeclaim that already didn't work very recently

I did see about rereading the leadup to that claim, incidentally; I'm mulling over it but I don't have a conclusion yet. on the one hand, people were getting one on him for being inactive, so it's possible that that was putting the heat under his collar, although there's no real sign of that beyond speculation; on the other hand, the claim comes out in an entirely unrelated side of the discussion, so it potentially strikes as more genuine from that angle. on the third, gross, mutant hand, however, when put under additional suspicion, he fullclaimed with the express purpose of getting the heat off himself, which is sorta yikes

... and on a fourth hand that descends from the heavens and flips me off, even if we believe mr ultracool's claim, we might be better off policy lynching him anyway because we potentially don't want the mafia getting benefits off him, and he just made it clear to them that they can have that


----------



## Trebek

idk how i feel about a policy lynch, especially considering this:


Mr. Ultracool said:


> Well, half of the items are worthless for Maf, so I figured it was worth the risk


----------



## mewtini

am not caught up but i am simply here to say >:/ about the policy lynch suggestion, even IF ultracool hadn’t said the thing quoted above me it’s like ... :||| particularly when it seems like MF townleans ultracool?


----------



## storm

ugh sorry guys for continuing to be quiet!! yesterday and today have not been very good days for feeling functional, so I think I am actually allergic to mafia,

I don't want to say anything too stupid or obvious, but couldn't we... ask to have one person visit ultracool at night, to try and confirm that his role is what he says it is? or if not that then at least not lynch him today! I'm nervous about his claiming so early but if he's telling the truth it seems like the most reasonable way to help town


----------



## storm

I really can't say much about reads because. everyone seems like they know what they're doing and a lot of people here (MF, mewtini, herbe) just naturally have online tones that make me think "friend!!!" automatically

(also I have been on this forum since like... pre-2010, it is so hard to be in a game with butterfree. it's butterfree!! Instant Trust and Respect)


----------



## kyeugh

i don’t have anything useful to add but i’m pretty much mindmelding with keldeo. getting weird vibes from koko’s argument here, particularly the bit about it being mental acrobatics to assume uc is telling the truth, but i’m thinking maybe it’s similar to the thing where e got excited about eir keldeo read and jumped the gun on it. policy lynching uc seems unwise to me.


----------



## Zori

A bit tired but Re: ultracool's role
As long as we discourage townies from visiting him, we can put a watcher on him and force the mafia to justify themselves
They almost certainly won't gamble on there not being a watcher


----------



## kyeugh

storm said:


> ask to have one person visit ultracool at night, to try and confirm that his role is what he says it is?


 the trouble is that not everyone can visit and in order to do this we’d have to out someone who can (i.e. probably a power role), but the direction is good.


Seshas said:


> A bit tired but Re: ultracool's role
> As long as we discourage townies from visiting him, we can put a watcher on him and force the mafia to justify themselves
> They almost certainly won't gamble on there not being a watcher


 this is a good plan tbh.


----------



## Zori

storm said:


> I really can't say much about reads because. everyone seems like they know what they're doing and a lot of people here (MF, mewtini, herbe) just naturally have online tones that make me think "friend!!!" automatically
> 
> (also I have been on this forum since like... pre-2010, it is so hard to be in a game with butterfree. it's butterfree!! Instant Trust and Respect)


Understandable
I think the first way to get past the trust barrier (which is painful in sorts) is to complete a game and see who the people who were mafia felt like in retrospect


----------



## Zori

M&F is probably even more town (I'd need to check back on their TvT game, but) for the PL suggestion
since that seems especially risky, it depends on whether M&F would make that move as wolf, which I'm leaning no

I'm still of the opinion that what happens with mechanics stays with mechanics, but then where does that leave us for the vote today? idk and hopefully I'll decide by tomorrow


----------



## Zori

Also, this is probably really irrelevant, but
Whoever killed Rari was probably more scared of them because of their TvT game


----------



## kyeugh

Seshas said:


> Also, this is probably really irrelevant, but
> Whoever killed Rari was probably more scared of them because of their TvT game


not cats?


----------



## Zori

The way I see it at least, Cats was a beast game for W!Rari, but in it, they played like an above-average townie
as opposed to TvT where they caught 2 wolves


----------



## JackPK

I don't have much to add that hasn't been said already, but I'm definitely not vibing with the policy lynch suggestion (also mindmeld with kyeugh about the risk of outing a power role, which I was going to point out until I scrolled further down and saw she already had)



Keldeo said:


> I think it'd be helpful at this stage in the day if people placed some votes! Even if you're not sure about where to vote, you can always change it later.
> 
> I guess I'm being a bit hypocritical here because I actually have zero idea where I want to vote. I suppose I didn't like kokorico jumping on Ultracool but I thought eir VM grocery list thing was hilarious. I'll revisit things later tonight.


I agree with this! I want to be able to play the Confident Keldeo Pressuring To Get Info game like you do, but I too have no idea where to vote.

I think for now I'm most inclined to want to pressure-vote Mist to try to ask about why their vote is parked on Seshas from a joke post... but I already brought that up in my long reads post and Mist doesn't appear to have been on since then, so I don't think pressure-voting there would accomplish anything at this moment ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


----------



## Mr. Ultracool

kyeugh said:


> the trouble is that not everyone can visit and in order to do this we’d have to out someone who can (i.e. probably a power role), but the direction is good.


But doesn't a Shenanigans- Round usually equate to an abundance of PRs, anyways?


----------



## JackPK

Mr. Ultracool said:


> kyeugh said:
> 
> 
> 
> the trouble is that not everyone can visit and in order to do this we’d have to out someone who can (i.e. probably a power role), but the direction is good.
> 
> 
> 
> But doesn't a Shenanigans- Round usually equate to an abundance of PRs, anyways?
Click to expand...

Even if we assume everyone or almost everyone has a power role bc of shenanigans (plus just bc it's the typical meta for tcodf), that still doesn't mean every power role has a night action.


----------



## Trebek

JackPK said:


> Mr. Ultracool said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kyeugh said:
> 
> 
> 
> the trouble is that not everyone can visit and in order to do this we’d have to out someone who can (i.e. probably a power role), but the direction is good.
> 
> 
> 
> But doesn't a Shenanigans- Round usually equate to an abundance of PRs, anyways?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Even if we assume everyone or almost everyone has a power role bc of shenanigans (plus just bc it's the typical meta for tcodf), that still doesn't mean every power role has a night action.
Click to expand...

yeah i would not equate more power roles with a higher willingness to reveal role info


----------



## Zero Moment

Oh hey guys. Day has started, I see. And what a glorious day it is!


----------



## Trebek

Zero Moment said:


> Oh hey guys. Day has started, I see. And what a glorious day it is!


howdy!


----------



## Herbe

hey zm! day is about to end in less than 24 hours :O


----------



## Herbe

thank you for the kind words storm! i always dreamed of being one of those types of ppl on tcodf, hehehe

anyway! i think I'm gonna try to keep yall on your toes about figuring out my meta. let's switch it up! it's just my experimental phase, mom~
*jackpk.* i might go to sleep and wake up in time to change it before EoD, might not


----------



## Herbe

what are the odds that mr. ultracool is the third party mist is talking about, and wins if he gets x number of visitors in a night? what if he kills all of those visitors :O


----------



## Herbe

im mega stream of consciousness-ing (is that the phrase?) and just wanted to point out that i could see a kokorico/ultracool w/w,,, will give details later if i feel like it :3 yes this world contradicts with my literal last post what about it
(also, pagetop, niiiiice)


----------



## Trebek

Herbe said:


> what are the odds that mr. ultracool is the third party mist is talking about, and wins if he gets x number of visitors in a night? what if he kills all of those visitors :O


now this is the kind of tinfoil i can get behind

not sure i actually believe it but it is indeed plausible?


----------



## Herbe

my koko/uc w/w tinfoil is way worse and if you ask me about it in the morning/afternoon tomorrow i will likely be embarassed to admit it but in the interest of Honesty, i wanted to announce it


----------



## Trebek

Herbe said:


> my koko/uc w/w tinfoil is way worse and if you ask me about it in the morning/afternoon tomorrow i will likely be embarassed to admit it but in the interest of Honesty, i wanted to announce it


this tinfoil would also go against ur tarot cards, which as we all know are the premier reads in this game


----------



## M&F

ah ha, admittedly, I flatly missed a spot check on the part where he mentioned half the powers being useless to the mob. hmmmm... there's a lot more idle rummaging I could do on the matter, but I like Seshas's watcher plan. shall we put it into action, then? if we are, I suppose what it means is: don't visit Mr. Ultracool unless you are a watcher. (this should also help us keep the damage constrained in the tinfoiled event of a third-party who's going to cause problems if we take the bait)

anyway, I guess I'm fine with cooking *JackPK* for tonight? I was wondering where herbe's vote came from but he did make some posts earlier to the effect of side-eying him; I don't think herb's reasoning is on the money there, but I've mentioned my own reasoning to suspect Jack, so I'll have to chalk that up to potentially right for the wrong reasons,


----------



## M&F

(like, fine with besides that it means I'm killing Jack early in the game for a second time, but at least he didn't seem to mind the first one so much, so-)


----------



## Keldeo

I'm not sure I understand the utility of the watcher plan. Wouldn't it essentially vanillaize both Mr. Ultracool and the watcher (as they'd no longer be able to watch for the mafia kill), if Mr. Ultracool is telling the truth? 

I'm maybe being too cavalier about the risks from mafia targeting him - I suspect "playing it safe" like that would probably be better than letting people do whatever, if consensus is split - but if he's town and mafia choose to waste their useful targeting roles like roleblocker / rolecop / etc. for a coin flip chance of getting a useful item in return, I don't entirely mind that.


----------



## Keldeo

That is of course making some assumptions about the mafia's plausible targeting roles, which is probably unwise because my default assumption is that VM didn't go conventional. But in the world where Mr. Ultracool is town, a lot of the mafia targeting roles I can think of would have little utility targeting a claimed town who apparently can't be blocked.


----------



## Keldeo

That all being said, I kind of feel like I'm missing something, lmk if I am just being bad at mechanics.


----------



## Zero Moment

The vote for Jack is interesting, though I'll decline to participate—I almost certainly won't be on again before Nightfall tomorrow, so I wouldn't be able to change my vote after listening to any arguments against.
However, if it's decided we want no lynches today, do note that just rescinding votes for Jack wouldn't be enough, as Mist still has a vote out for Seshas.


----------



## Keldeo

What do you mean by interesting, ZM?

Jack, I'm also interested in any thoughts you have about these new votes.


----------



## mewtini

it is ... 5am, let's try this again. now that holiday stuff is over (and that !!!EoD!!! is near), reading through thread and doing my classic thoughtspost again lmfao because i don't think i'll ever fully process without it :'D will readslist afterward, for real this time unless i fall asleep, and i will definitely not be proofreading


Spoiler: long






Herbe said:


> Keldeo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Herbe said:
> 
> 
> 
> damn will is lying again? parking my vote tbh
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think Mist is telling the truth?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> i don't think that that would be hard to lie about (its hard to prove the absence of a third party cause they dont usually self reveal anyway?) but inherently i trusted them abt it
Click to expand...

i think this interaction was fine, tbh? later seshas points it out as hedging but like ... i think that sort of is a weird thing to shade herbe for here because i think that this reaction is almost perfectly NAI in my mind (mafia and town alike would react sort of similarly to outgroup talk, i think, except that mafia might want to do it more subtly?) and i think in the world where herbe and mist are both mafia, and herbe wanted to lend some sort of credence or strength to mist's post, he doesn't do it in this way (where he like, gives a long reason why mist's post should be taken with a grain of salt - before offhandedly saying "but i bought it in the moment")

in 119 seshas later mentions that she considers it weak, i guess i'm lightly worried about the shade but meh. her 65 (reading into herbe's tarot jokeread) is also kind of ?_? to me


Herbe said:


> god imagine the 4d chess if mist was somehow setting up some elaborate mafia gamble hinging on town believing there's outgroup scum/third party bad boys


this makes me think mist and herbe not w/w, immediately responding to a partner's post by wifom-ing it feels loosely unlikely


JackPK said:


> Right so we have uhhh 18 players if I'm counting right? So assuming like a fifth to a third (ish) are scum, that's like 4-6ish, so if Mist's info is correct then that sounds like an ingroup of like 3-5 and at least one outgroup? Seems plausible imo


responding to mist claiming to know of 3p/outgroup by checking to see if it fits into the setup constraints feels like, fine to me tbh and i am kind of surprised to see some shading based on this post considering that i've gotten TRed for saying "so there are probably ___ number of wolves in this game, right?" multiple times before


kokorico said:


> I didn't interpret Mist's initial reveal as a joke, just as a slightly ambiguous phrasing that they quickly clarified. I think it would be completely in character as a signal from an ingroup mafia who's trying to signal to an outgroup. Which is not to say that that's my working theory right now - I think it probably makes more sense for mafia!Mist to signal more subtly, regardless of whether they're ingroup or not - but I don't think it's much _less_ likely than the opposite.


agree with this for now but i need to revisit mistposting at a later time tbh because i keep getting glossyeyed over it right now; dominant thought is that i don't gutread it as grounds for a SR, and also that i am bad at/dislike reading mist tbh so i'm going to just put a pin in this for later
also i don't think i follow seshas' argument (too lazy to quote, since it's multipost) that mist is > rand town so i'll have to come back to it as well

- feel kind of weird about seshas' readlist/talk across 144 and 145, where light SRs were kind of made off of ... activity levels a few hours into the Day? 
- thought about this while looking at jack's readlist in 172 - i've thought that seshas/koko have been a bit shade-throwy this game, but he seems to react a bit differently to the two? i personally think that it's a bit more within koko's townmeta to be paranoid in the way that e has been here, but seshas is now confusing me a bit/feeling out of her town meta even though i mentioned before that i liked that her solviness remains.
- agreeing with keldeo's remark in re: ultracool in 178
- top of koko's 181 is making me a bit :/, i think it deeply overlooks that ultracool's fakeclaim in cats was during an immediate pre-lynch scenario and also presumes that someone would ... try to fakeclaim a similar role twice in a row? (not to mention that he never really elaborated that the faked role in cats was an "item mechanic" role)
- then again maybe it's sort of silly of me to townlean this but koko talking about the grocerylist felt strangely earnest to me, haha. right now i feel meh about the bullet point above but there is a certain quality in koko's posting so far that make me lean town i think (not specifying for the sake of seeing if it continues)
- herbe connecting the jack sideeye to his own wolf meta (jack's mechspec reminding herbe of his scumgame) in 184 can be towny
- i kind of can't tell where i stand on skylar thus far this game and i've largely been tonereading her ever since tvt, but i appreciate her attempt to defuse some of the ultracool awkwardness in 201 because i think she could have maybe let that sentiment roll onward as scum? (then again this isn't really out of her wolfrange, lol. i will vibe for now)
- agree with jack's tvt read of mf in 204 (although i don't quite follow her lines of thought throughout this game as he seems to?)
- not very clear on the "colossal countertunnel" (from jack, on seshas) that mf mentions in 207? it is late and i might just be missing it, but jack's read on seshas was based on seshas shading herbe, wasn't it?
- trebek's 210 surprised me by virtue of being sort of out-of-character, though i know for sure that he's been hoping to become a more aggressive/active player
- i said this already but i like, really don't love MF's 220 (policy lynching ultracool), partly because i'm against policy lynching but also because the conclusion sort of comes out of nowhere i feel. i am getting the impression that MF doesn't actually scumlean ultracool which makes it very like :/ that there's an argument to ... lynch town? especially given what ultracool mentioned about not believing his item giveaway to be of use to mafia (though i didn't fully follow that post either)


in an ideal world i would compile a list of pings/questions right about now, we will see whether or not i do that before passing out,


----------



## mewtini

mewtini said:


> thought about this while looking at jack's readlist in 172 - i've thought that seshas/koko have been a bit shade-throwy this game, but he seems to react a bit differently to the two? i personally think that it's a bit more within koko's townmeta to be paranoid in the way that e has been here, but seshas is now confusing me a bit/feeling out of her town meta even though i mentioned before that i liked that her solviness remains.


realized that this was based on an anachronism tbh, the kokoshade i was referring to didn't happen until like 10 posts after jack's list


----------



## mewtini

unordered and haphazard
will likely change drastically once i get to review this overNight or something


Spoiler: tierlist



mewt: mewt

cool: 
ultracool (haha get it, cool. i was thrown for a loop by his posting but i think that his heightened posting level, considering his meta, is townier than not. given his sort of like, naive/genuine tone? in tvt i think i gutread him as town here despite being like ?_? initially)
herbe (the most comfortable he's seemed in a while, and doesn't seem nearly as reluctant to actually poke at the game itself as he was as scum in tvt)
mf (similar to my VM read in cats, where i thought his plays were like ... too outlandish/attention grabbing to be wolf i guess. i will likely reevaluate this soon because i don't find myself agreeing with or loving her content but i think i can better imagine it coming from town than from wolf)

sure:
stryke
storm (toneread)

???:
jack (not really grasping the wagon rationale and i'll have to figure it out sometime soon :'D my understanding is that jack is by far more used to classic tcodfia so i'm not really thinking much of the mechspec ... i don't think i agreed with his readslist? but nothing has made me think scummy - or towny - yet)
trebek
keldeo (nothing AI yet, has not posted as much as normal so i'm having a harder time gauging his thread influence than i do when he's a louder voice)
mist (don't fully know where i land yet on my theorizing about "outgroup signaling" or "nah just town," i'm mostly just confused about the utility of having early-infoclaimed as either alignment)
bfree (nothing really AI yet; reasonable sounding posts that just sound very Butterfree)

lightly eh:
seshas (solvy as per usual, i think she would be doing that as either alignment though. i don't think she pushed hard on anyone at any point in tvt though - the endgame emmypush does not count - and is behaving differently than she did in cats when she was alive, so this is just here since ... it feels markedly different)
kokorico (am wavering on this due to my meta understanding, where i think koko might just be in eir townrange despite my weird feelings here. eir reaction to ultracool's claim felt disproportionate and i don't think the jack side-eye for #48 was warranted; maintaining that taking a normal scum:town ratio and accounting for a hotly-discussed outgroup member doesn't require insider info and wasn't a weird reaction to have in the moment)

lowposters:
emmy
zm
rnp


----------



## mewtini

was thinking more about keldeo asking me how i could get to a more "head full" position wrt this game, and i think the climate just feels distinctly different from tvt/cats to me. like, significantly more aggressive (memephase ended a lot earlier ...) and more direct talk of lynching, overt FoSes on d1. i ... get easily stressed out ingame and combat that by staying super on top of the thread, so not being able to do that this weekend due to holiday stuff combined with the sort of unfamiliar environment is making me feel really out of my element atm ;(


----------



## Keldeo

mewtini, what from Seshas makes you think they are being "shade throwy"? idt I've noticed anything out of the ordinary in that vein but I haven't compared to their previous games. 

Also, for the record, I went back and looked at the Cats scum chat and Mr. Ultracool did have somewhat of a focus on items (e.g. suggested claiming scummate Rari's neighborizer powers as coming from an item.) I'm still inclined to believe him / let him vibe for now, though.


----------



## mewtini

haven't directly compared either, i'm kinda going off of memory right now. i think it might have been the semi-sustained herbe shade combined with her just being a bit more aggressive d1; iirc, in tvt she wasn't super engaged d1 beyond claiming her mysterious informant tidbit and making detached-ish micro/interaction reads, and in cats she was more involved but (i think?) didn't make many player-specific pushes while alive on d1. she's also said before that she doesn't really play very prolifically in earlygame so that + the slightly more forceful energy i'm getting from her posting + my ease in townleaning/reading her in prior games is making me uneasy


Keldeo said:


> Also, for the record, I went back and looked at the Cats scum chat and Mr. Ultracool did have somewhat of a focus on items (e.g. suggested claiming scummate Rari's neighborizer powers as coming from an item.)


ah, interesting. i think i'm mostly fixated on the fact that he's breaking his meta tbh and i think that that change is more likely to be town wanting to shift approaches than a wolf (where coasting would be more optimal)


----------



## mewtini

mewtini said:


> was thinking more about keldeo asking me how i could get to a more "head full" position wrt this game, and i think the climate just feels distinctly different from tvt/cats to me. like, significantly more aggressive (memephase ended a lot earlier ...) and more direct talk of lynching, overt FoSes on d1. i ... get easily stressed out ingame and combat that by staying super on top of the thread, so not being able to do that this weekend due to holiday stuff combined with the sort of unfamiliar environment is making me feel really out of my element atm ;(


i think that i'll have a better time once i'm able to actually do realtime posting tbh because i really just hate catching up and having to imagine/piece together what the inthread climate was at a given point of time instead of just. being there when it happens. lmao


----------



## Keldeo

mewt, just wondering, what separates stryke/storm from Jack/Trebek/me/Mist/Bfree to you?


----------



## Herbe

mewtini said:


> not really grasping the wagon rationale


mewtini i made the first jack vote post at what, 2 am my time, in the context of a post specifically about making myself more unpredictable. you know better than to use big words like "rationale" to describe my thoughts and actions

tl;dr it's really just a hunch. mf has her own reasons though im sure (not 100% clear on them, but let me get a good nights sleep before going in to analyse anything) 

i'd say the jack wagon is more like.... a small wheelbarrow right now instead. it barely qualifies as a wagon dunnit? 

i must admit i am far more relaxed in this game than any other so far - your suspicions are correct! Turns out I just needed more than a 72 hour break from mafia to clear my head.


----------



## qenya

haven't really taken in the last few pages yet, but here's a thing I've been compiling and hopefully it's useful to someone else as well


----------



## qenya

kokorico said:


> haven't really taken in the last few pages yet, but here's a thing I've been compiling and hopefully it's useful to someone else as well
> 
> View attachment 670


(I think I accurately stated everyone's opinions so far, but please let me know if you think I'm misrepresenting you)


----------



## Keldeo

@storm don't feel like you have to contribute in a certain way or like your contributions are less valid than others', post whatever and whenever you feel like posting :D

@kyeugh what makes you feel potentially "pocketed" by me and Butterfree?

@Trebek if I'm understanding you right, you don't think Jack deserves so much suspicion, right? Who would you vote up as a counterwagon to him?



M&F said:


> anyways, let's see... for one thing, I can't say I dig jack's vibes so far. the mechspec's eh, but I'm sensing this colossal countertunnel on seshas for putting him on the spot and I daresay it's not the look of the season


@M&F Can you elaborate more on this? I didn't get the sense that Jack's suspicion on Seshas was either strong or "OMGUS"-y, but maybe I'm missing your point?

--

I'm sorry for not being here that much, I haven't really felt like playing mafia toDay. I'll try harder later if I can. 

lol tone reads, but there are tonal things I like about mewtini, storm, and maybe Herbe. 

MF is interesting to me because I feel like some reasons for stated townreads are flawed, but I want to sheep them anyway. To expand, she comes across to me as willing to be "bold" as either alignment, i.e. I don't think that she's done anything that would be too attention-grabbing to be mafia (like proposing the "policy lynch"), and I think the firmest conclusion she's drawn so far is SRing Jack. I think if she's mafia, Herbe is likely to be town based on  

To expand on my earlier mention about koko, in the (imo likely) world that Mr. Ultracool is town, my instinct says it'd make sense for a mafia to have jumped on his claim. It seems like one of those offbeat things done by townies that mafia can easily push as suspicious. I dunno how strongly I believe in that instinct, I think it's possible that the mafia just weren't super active to immediately respond to Ultracool's claim, or they took a different route such as hedging / leaving options open about him. 

In any case the two people who stuck out to me the most as "initially pushing Ultracool" to some extent were Jack and koko. I think the way Jack has been pushing things demonstrates that either we have different beliefs about what makes someone scummy or towny, which is by no means out of the question, or he is looking for things that "look bad" rather than things that are bad. I feel like reversing my earlier suspicion on koko for no real reason. 

I think if Butterfree is mafia, she's TMIing at least one of Mist/Ultracool as not mafia. I have no opinion on her alignment.

Still dunno where to vote, guess I'm fine with Jack being wagoned, would definitely like to see updated thoughts from him when he gets a chance.


----------



## Keldeo

Keldeo said:


> I think if [MF is] mafia, Herbe is likely to be town based on *the "right for the wrong reasons" line in #246*


sentence was incomplete because I thought harder about the initial read and realized it (an underlying assumption that Herbe has real reasons for the vote) was maybe too far of a stretch given this evidence, but forgot to actually delete it


----------



## Keldeo

Also am well aware that town can be wrong / jump on "things that look bad," as another point I'm considering re: Jack/kokorico.

In a vacuum, Mr. Ultracool's alignment almost doesn't matter for that read because it is a fairly easy way to distance, especially if someone knows the shady thing is in fact not legit but is being defended anyway. This is complicated by people (among them e.g. kokorico) pushing for him not to be visited - I would actually think these people are not knowingly mafia partners with him, because I assume Mr. U's gambit as mafia would be as like a paranoid gun owner trying to get visited or something.



kokorico said:


> haven't really taken in the last few pages yet, but here's a thing I've been compiling and hopefully it's useful to someone else as well
> 
> View attachment 670


You vastly overstate my certainty. I think he's likely to be telling the truth, but right now I feel like the truth value of his claim doesn't actually matter as much as the fact that I would oppose voting him today, because if he's lying, I think it'll become apparent pretty soon. I imagine that any exaggeration resulted from you positioning our views as opposites in a cute way, though, which I appreciate.

idk how I feel about people visiting him, I guess I think people should do what they want. 

How has this compilation been useful to you?


----------



## Keldeo

Oh yeah my Seshas read is pretty similar to what it was in my post ~70 / founded on the same basic traits... I don't doubt they're capable as mafia. 

I also don't feel like they've been pushing a specific agenda or something like that. Though I also feel like the great majority of people have not, so far.


----------



## Keldeo

@Mr. Ultracool do you have any thoughts on the game not related to your claim that you would like to share?


----------



## M&F

I should clarify that the policy lynch idea was less "eh, he's probably town but we should get rid of him anyway" and more "I don't know what to make of all this yet, but there might be a good reason to lynch either way". in retrospect, though, that sort of thinking's just kind of lazy, ahah. I'm glad we have a better idea now, although it's not really going to be a lot of value if everyone's not on board. which isn't me pressuring everyone to be on board, anyway, although it does mean I should either convince everyone to be on board or drop it

keldeo's objection was that, if we just leave the mafia be on that matter, we're potentially just convincing them to waste their power roles on something of relatively little use, right? thing is, the same goes for town. if we have a cop, is it better for them to have more useful checks or a gun? if we have a doc, is it better for them to stay after probable mob targets -- as opposed to someone they have little incentive to kill right now -- or a gun? I'd argue that the watcher plan is the most value we can really get out of this situation without putting people at risk of running afoul of a mob bomb or something nastier.

(I'm liberally summarizing the potential benefits here as "a gun" because, like, that's the only one I can think of and which has been brought up so far. I'm wondering though, would it be beneficial for mr ultracool to actually claim what the potential benefits for visitors is? assuming truthfulness, he's already overshared a lot so far, and it might be better for everyone if we know what the mob is potentially getting out of this if they take the bait; at the same time, it's possible that some of the benefits would work best against the mob if they don't see it coming. hmmmmmmmm.)

as for jack, a lot of people have been saying that I'm overestimating the extent of Jack's FOS on Seshas, so I went to have a doublecheck about whether I was seeing things and... I gotta admit, I could swear I saw some more overt posts that just aren't there now. if I gave myself that impression, though, it must've been because Jack's read struck me as more of a blatant OMGUS (that's what the term was, thanks keldeo) than it might have other people, so, I tried to reverse engineer whatever rationale skipped my consciousness there, and I have it now. I think I just found his reasoning for suspecting Seshas highly unconvincing, and it tripped red flags when it was coming on the heels of Seshas himself being one of the most vocal "mechspec is for scum" people

I'd rather lynch on something stronger, anyway, but I was already going to say I don't really intend for the votes on Jack to turn into a bandwagon; we still have a lot of discussing to do. we do, however, need at least two even vaguely good votes on _someone_ -- even if that someone is, barf, the abstain bin -- in case mist doesn't come back in time to uncast that meme vote from earlier,

lastly, @mewtini, I gotta at least say for myself, this is more like my usual game looks like -- I'm an aggressive player. Eifie even noticed that part of me wasn't quite as there as usual back in tvt (although again, I'm positive this has a lot less to do with my alignment than with the fact that my head is above the water this time). hate to bring the mood down for ya, but one's gotta play to their understanding of the game, I suppose. (although the amount of jokes I've made at your expense so far might not've helped, so apologies if I've been getting carried away with the horseplay,)


----------



## M&F

M&F said:


> if we have a cop, is it better for them to have more useful checks or a gun?


incidentally, let's phrase this in a way that's even better to quote out of context: I do not think cops should go get themselves guns-


----------



## Keldeo

Oh that’s a good point, yeah I think if your PR is worth more used elsewhere than A Gun you should definitely not target Mr. Ultracool regardless of how much you believe him. And that’s... probably true of most to all PRs?

I think Mr. Ultracool has claimed some of the possibilities to be A Gun, a one-shot alignment cop, double vote, and one-shot heal. I’m not really sure why he said you have to message the host to get your vote doubled, though, that seems kinda ??

Agree that Jack’s reasoning for suspecting Seshas was somewhat insubstantial, though I know I should give allowances for it being early. MF I take it that you’re townreading Seshas?


----------



## M&F

ah, I see; I failed to recall that direct claim but we _were_ talking about doublevoting earlier in the thread, weren't we. ... and I suppose the one-shot copping isn't useful for mafia, and the one-shot heal is situational at best, but damn, the remaining powers are potentially _really_ good for mafia; both of them can instantly force a LYLO to go awry if they're sitting on even just one. that is worrisome,

my read on seshas is... null right now; like, naturally he's very likely to be town if jack is mafia, but if I'm wrong about jack, then I don't think I'll have anything on seshas without observing for longer


----------



## Keldeo

Ah - do you have any other notable reads then, MF?

I’d definitely be interested in more perspectives on Jack because he’s been here and trying and readable, and I think to an extent I’m talking myself into / nodding along with MF’s read because I dislike my own reads and want to follow something lol.

I may miss deadline if I oversleep, but will try not to


----------



## Mr. Ultracool

M&F said:


> (I'm liberally summarizing the potential benefits here as "a gun" because, like, that's the only one I can think of and which has been brought up so far. I'm wondering though, would it be beneficial for mr ultracool to actually claim what the potential benefits for visitors is?


I did, actually. It's one-use Cops/Wands, Docs/Cups, Vigilantes/Swords and Doublevotes/Pentacles.


----------



## storm

minor arcana rep!! I'm delighted by that


----------



## Zori

Wolf Keldeo implies that M&F's reads are wrong
(I'm leaning towards V!Keldeo but ig we'll see how that shakes out later because my read is on stuff I'm sure Keldeo is capable of faking)

who to vote, who to vote


----------



## M&F

Keldeo said:


> Ah - do you have any other notable reads then, MF?
> 
> I’d definitely be interested in more perspectives on Jack because he’s been here and trying and readable, and I think to an extent I’m talking myself into / nodding along with MF’s read because I dislike my own reads and want to follow something lol.
> 
> I may miss deadline if I oversleep, but will try not to


alas, I don't; I already normally focus on quality over quantity for my reads, and it's D1, and a lot of people still aren't posting... although jack did sad-react to my post voting him, so now I can't help but want to let him live for at least another couple phases, even if that'd not necessarily be good play-

we do still need to do _something_, even if that ends up being abstention or inactive lynching. so hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


----------



## Zori

Preliminary Reads:
Good
[Seshas]

Cool
[M&F/kokorico]

Wooloo
[Mist1422/storm/Mr. Ultracool]
[Herbe]

Weh
[mewtini/Keldeo]
[Stryke/JackPK/Trebek]

Ech
[kyeugh]
[IndigoEmmy/Butterfree/RedneckPhoenix/Zero Moment]

weh


----------



## Zori

I'm straining really hard to wolfread mewt so I'll leave that aside for another day probably


----------



## qenya

Keldeo said:


> How has this compilation been useful to you?


It's not really yet, but I'm hoping that when we have some more flips it will be possible to pick out patterns. (I'm also paying a little bit of attention to, e.g., who is coming up with their own opinion and who's just saying "I agree with so-and-so", but I don't think that's going to come to anything today.)



Keldeo said:


> I’m not really sure why he said you have to message the host to get your vote doubled, though, that seems kinda ??


If it's one-shot like the other items, presumably the point is to let the person choose which day to use it on.


----------



## Zori

Seshas said:


> I'm straining really hard to wolfread mewt so I'll leave that aside for another day probably


I think this comes from the fact that we are mindmelding on the stuff but their reads are more expansive than mine
which translates to a wolf read in some universe ig

In any case, I'm not vibing with Jack wagon
I'm thinking if not in the lowposters, maybe [kyeugh/trebek]? I get that kyeugh isn't in their wolfrange it's just weh


----------



## qenya

fuck it. *Herbe*

This is more of a "not Jack" vote, really, because in my estimation (and even according to the people who _are_ currently voting for him!) there's not really much behind that wagon, and also it feels kind of unfair to eliminate him so early when he hasn't even got through a single day alive yet in any post-revival game. I'll concede that there's not much explicitly incriminating Herbe either, but the more I think about it, the less I like that (unless I missed it?) he hasn't expressed any sort of opinion at all, either way, on the Ultracool situation.

(Normally I wouldn't consider that enough for a vote, but there's, what, six and a half hours to EoD? without anything that even looks like a wagon in place yet, which I also don't like. Not gonna be particularly peeved if one doesn't materialise around this either, to be clear - I just think we should get a move on, because otherwise we'll end up in a situation where we all panic in the last 30 minutes and basically cast our votes arbitrarily.)


----------



## Zori

I am deeper in Trebek's pocket now

*kyeugh*


----------



## kyeugh

Keldeo said:


> I'm not sure I understand the utility of the watcher plan. Wouldn't it essentially vanillaize both Mr. Ultracool and the watcher (as they'd no longer be able to watch for the mafia kill), if Mr. Ultracool is telling the truth?


 i don’t think so. mr ultracool wouldn’t be vanillized if he’s giving the watcher an item, right? and the watcher may or may not be vanillized depending on whether you believe anyone else will show up there, but on the other hand they’ll get some kind of item out of it… although thinking about it now i was sort of assuming it would be a one-night thing and that doesn’t actually make sense on re-evaluation, heh. unless the watcher felt like claiming toMorrow which doesn’t really seem worth it.


Keldeo said:


> @kyeugh what makes you feel potentially "pocketed" by me and Butterfree?


 i just like your guys’ posting no matter what most of the time. i think it takes a lot for me to start scumleaning either of you with any simulacrum of confidence just because i usually like your logic and tone so much regardless of alignment.


----------



## kyeugh

Seshas said:


> I am deeper in Trebek's pocket now
> 
> *kyeugh*


?? are you going to explain why you keep doing this


----------



## Novae

*unvote*

sorry for not being around

koko's reaction thing was a towny way to approach the claim imo


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

agh i'm here sorry i was camping


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

i mean i'm still camping but like


----------



## Vipera Magnifica

Vote Totals:
*Will* (2) (Keldeo, Trebek)
*JackPK* (2) (Herbe, M&F)
*Herbe* (1) (kokorico)
*kyeugh* (1) (Seshas)



Spoiler: Vote History



*Keldeo votes Herbe's tarot deck (#30)*
Herbe votes Will (#31)
*Trebek votes Will (#32)*
Mist1422 votes Seshas (#55)
Herbe votes kokorico (#192)
Herbe unvotes (#194)
*Herbe votes JackPK (#240)
M&F votes JackPK (#246)
kokorico votes Herbe (#282)
Seshas votes kyeugh (#283)
Mist1422 unvotes (#286)*


----------



## Trebek

kyeugh said:


> Seshas said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am deeper in Trebek's pocket now
> 
> *kyeugh*
> 
> 
> 
> ?? are you going to explain why you keep doing this
Click to expand...

i also want to know seshas’s mindstate on this: what made it come down to me/skylar for you, and what made you choose the way you did?


----------



## Trebek

also, hi! just woke up, and keldeo i saw your question, but there’s a chance i might fall asleep again before i have a substantial answer for it  i will be back shortly if that happens tho


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

*stryke*


----------



## Trebek

ok i decided i needed to do this before going to sleep again bc past!me would be too scared/hedgey to vote and that needs to change dangit

keldeo, in response to your question about a counter wagon, i think i am going to tentatively go with *koko* for now. i agree a lot with what mewt said in her readlist, where it feels like e has had multiple moments of disproportionate/unwarranted reactions, including the things that mewt mentioned but now also for me including eir  vote on herbe, which i don’t really vibe with tbh. i think the spreadsheet is NAI mostly bc i’m worried about the possible scenario where w!koko uses the spreadsheet to draw lines in the sand/divide town into factions over this UC business

the way i see it, it’s either v!koko genuinely believing that e wants to play around the UC claim and people’s reactions/lack thereof, or it’s w!koko trying to hinge on UCspec in a way that distracts town from making other speculation, and i personally think that the latter is likely enough to warrant a vote for now


----------



## Zori

kyeugh said:


> ?? are you going to explain why you keep doing this


Everyone but [you/Trebek/Stryke?/Jack??/the 0-posters??] I have reasons I want to not yeet


----------



## Zori

Trebek said:


> the way i see it, it’s either v!koko genuinely believing that e wants to play around the UC claim and people’s reactions/lack thereof, or it’s w!koko trying to hinge on UCspec in a way that distracts town from making other speculation, and i personally think that the latter is likely enough to warrant a vote for now


[insert random sound effects]
my first instinct was to vote Trebek off this post tbh, I don't really like it?


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

i've got a good feeling about it this time vote stryke


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

plot twist: everyone is minor arcana and anyone claiming major is lying


----------



## Zori

I feel bad about bullying stryke in cats


----------



## Trebek

Seshas said:


> Trebek said:
> 
> 
> 
> the way i see it, it’s either v!koko genuinely believing that e wants to play around the UC claim and people’s reactions/lack thereof, or it’s w!koko trying to hinge on UCspec in a way that distracts town from making other speculation, and i personally think that the latter is likely enough to warrant a vote for now
> 
> 
> 
> [insert random sound effects]
> my first instinct was to vote Trebek off this post tbh, I don't really like it?
Click to expand...

i admittedly sound more confident than i actually am in that post, this is mostly a combination of keldeo asking me if i had a counterwagon/me trying to be more confident in my vibes this game


----------



## mewtini

Keldeo said:


> mewt, just wondering, what separates stryke/storm from Jack/Trebek/me/Mist/Bfree to you?


it was pretty much that i thought stryke/storm sounded cute-lost :'D not a major difference it was a light ;; when i read their posting, those two are also the most likely to change based on whatever they say next. also otherwise i'd end up with the entire game in "??"


----------



## Zori

*Trebek*
awawawawawawawawaw tbh


----------



## mewtini

mewtini said:


> it was pretty much that i thought stryke/storm sounded cute-lost :'D not a major difference it was a light ;; when i read their posting, those two are also the most likely to change based on whatever they say next. also otherwise i'd end up with the entire game in "??"


versus the rest of you where i'm like, actively uncertain. haven't played with jack before and am strongly in "he's been fine but i'm not wavering either way"-land there, trebek is sort of out of meta and i think i'm going to need to take time to figure out which way i'm leaning on him because lol metaread reliance, mist has not really said enough beyond the 3p/outgroup claim that i keep worldbuilding for and am not quite leaning either way on yet. you/bfree always read towny to me and given that your guys' post volume is on the lower side, i'm just going to leave it at an effective null for now and Figure It Out eventually


----------



## Zori

Trebek wolf -> Keldeo villa tbh
Trebek wolf -> Jack probably villa?
Trebek wolf -> kokorico idk (but still probably villa for reads)

Jack wagon is likely pushed by townies and opposed by wolves IMO (this could be completely wrong but w/e)

I forgot how kyeugh played in cats, I should probably remember that at some point in time (before yeeting them)


----------



## mewtini

Keldeo said:


> To expand, [MF] comes across to me as willing to be "bold" as either alignment, i.e. I don't think that she's done anything that would be too attention-grabbing to be mafia (like proposing the "policy lynch"), and I think the firmest conclusion she's drawn so far is SRing Jack


this helps and i'm going off of a meta from one game where i don't think she was fully engaged, haha. i wouldn't class her tvt play as bold and have been basing my reads off of that


M&F said:


> lastly, @mewtini, I gotta at least say for myself, this is more like my usual game looks like -- I'm an aggressive player. Eifie even noticed that part of me wasn't quite as there as usual back in tvt (although again, I'm positive this has a lot less to do with my alignment than with the fact that my head is above the water this time). hate to bring the mood down for ya, but one's gotta play to their understanding of the game, I suppose. (although the amount of jokes I've made at your expense so far might not've helped, so apologies if I've been getting carried away with the horseplay,)


no it's okay and i wasn't only referring to you, i really did mean the overall climate. a lot of people who i'm not used to being as aggressive are doing so in this game so i'm very *_* about it especially because i'm just, not an aggressive player heh. not really a moodkiller so much as "i'm sorry that i'm having problems catching up, but it's due to <this thing>".


----------



## Trebek

wait aaaaaaaa


----------



## Zori

Seshas said:


> Jack wagon is likely pushed by townies and opposed by wolves IMO (this could be completely wrong but w/e)


This doesn't mean that Jack would be a wolf
It could mean that Jack's yeet is not advantageous for wolves as opposed to other options on the table
It could mean wolves think Jack will get yeeted anyways down the road and are going on for the cred


----------



## mewtini

Seshas said:


> I think this comes from the fact that we are mindmelding on the stuff but their reads are more expansive than mine
> which translates to a wolf read in some universe ig


sorry, can you elaborate on this?


Seshas said:


> I get that kyeugh isn't in their wolfrange it's just weh


do you think so? i actually have had the thought that she's definitely within it in a way that she wasn't in cats or snomfia


----------



## Zori

mewtini said:


> Seshas said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think this comes from the fact that we are mindmelding on the stuff but their reads are more expansive than mine
> which translates to a wolf read in some universe ig
> 
> 
> 
> sorry, can you elaborate on this?
> 
> 
> Seshas said:
> 
> 
> 
> I get that kyeugh isn't in their wolfrange it's just weh
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> do you think so? i actually have had the thought that she's definitely within it in a way that she wasn't in cats or snomfia
Click to expand...

1. My Paranoia: mewtini is so consistently having the same townreads as me that they must be a wolf supporting my reads or something
I think I've dropped it at this point in time

2. Maybe not wolfrange? I meant TvT wolf game
they could just be not as engaged which is a thing and I'm not sweeping them off the table yet


----------



## kyeugh

i’m kind of just not really that pulled into this game, for one thing it’s d1 but also none of these wagons are that compelling

i don’t think i’m really playing that much differently from my snomfia game aside from not having made a high effort legpost and am curious why you think so mewtini

also i’m not sure if i like the koko wagon yet but i believe trebek believes it and it’s improving my view of him


----------



## Zori

Also, we shouldn't talk about ongoing games for [reasons]


----------



## mewtini

kyeugh said:


> i don’t think i’m really playing that much differently from my snomfia game aside from not having made a high effort legpost and am curious why you think so mewtini


oh tbqh it essentially is just "she's lower-effort, so i can't immediately tell" in contrast to when i've been able to quickly townread you elsewhere

but also, no, i do genuinely think that there is a slight tonal difference between this and the towngames i've seen from you so far. i just am unsure if it's just due to level of time/volume of posting but either way i think The Memes Are Different


----------



## Trebek

Seshas said:


> Trebek said:
> 
> 
> 
> the way i see it, it’s either v!koko genuinely believing that e wants to play around the UC claim and people’s reactions/lack thereof, or it’s w!koko trying to hinge on UCspec in a way that distracts town from making other speculation, and i personally think that the latter is likely enough to warrant a vote for now
> 
> 
> 
> [insert random sound effects]
> my first instinct was to vote Trebek off this post tbh, I don't really like it?
Click to expand...

sorry, but would you be able to elaborate on this a little? i ask this from more of a self-improvement mindset than a wagon-related mindset, bc i’m experimenting this game and trying to figure out how to more properly Express my Vibes

so i guess i’m just wondering if your instinct is based off of what i said or how i said it


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

nah but like seriously this time i feel good abt lynching stryke like not just for the meme


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

i mean, also for the meme, but not /just/ for the meme


----------



## mewtini

RedneckPhoenix said:


> nah but like seriously this time i feel good abt lynching stryke like not just for the meme


what'd you think of his posting?


----------



## kyeugh

tfw i now feel pressured to meme or it will make me look bad


----------



## kyeugh

hey wait is emmy in this game


----------



## mewtini

kyeugh said:


> tfw i now feel pressured to meme or it will make me look bad


omg, no!! i just mean that i've sort of used a certain brand of d1 memeing as a towntell for you. so now that i cannot, i will have to actually read your posts, smh

also i just went to attempt to figure out where to place a science vote and realized that i just like. do not know yet. lol


----------



## mewtini

i think emmy is the one person who hasn't posted yet?


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

mewtini said:


> RedneckPhoenix said:
> 
> 
> 
> nah but like seriously this time i feel good abt lynching stryke like not just for the meme
> 
> 
> 
> what'd you think of his posting?
Click to expand...

evil


----------



## kyeugh

mewtini said:


> i will have to actually read your posts


i feel sorry for you already

i just checked the signups and emmy is indeed in the game. @IndigoEmmy come play!


----------



## kyeugh

in her defense, looking at her last few posts it seems like she’s been kind of busy between computer issues and celebrating a birthday, so i don’t feel as weird about her silence as i night otherwise. i’ll start feeling weird if it’s sustained though.


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

yeah i roleblocked stryke last night /s


mathematically, he has to be mafia by this point


----------



## kyeugh

RedneckPhoenix said:


> mathematically, he has to be mafia by this point


now this is an argument i can get behind


----------



## qenya

kyeugh said:


> also i’m not sure if i like the koko wagon yet but i believe trebek believes it and it’s improving my view of him


I kind of feel the same way! Like, obviously I know he's wrong, but if he were a wolf I would think there would be better/"easier" targets for a mislynch.


----------



## JackPK

I am finally awake! Sorry for sleeping in so late    I usually sleep in bc I have a night job, but I didn't mean to sleep all the way until ~2 hours left to EOD, whoops



Keldeo said:


> Jack, I'm also interested in any thoughts you have about these new votes.


Frankly Herbe is a massive mystery to me since (from what I've seen so far, tho I'm not up-to-date on the full thread yet) he hasn't given any reasoning for voting or suspecting me, besides a gut reaction to mech-spec? So when I saw his vote last night right before I went to bed, my first instinct was "I don't know what's happening so I'm gonna be quiet bc I generally get annoyed when vote-targets get whiny about being voted for"

I think M&F's reasoning sounds valid if I step into her shoes, although if I may allow myself a slight whine in my defense, I do think she's overestimating the degree to which I was tunneling/talking about Seshas... I brought it up once in my readslist and then replied about it once when someone asked, and both times I emphasized how light the read was

ok I will be back when I have read the intervening 4 pages between when I went to bed and now


----------



## Zori

kokorico said:


> kyeugh said:
> 
> 
> 
> also i’m not sure if i like the koko wagon yet but i believe trebek believes it and it’s improving my view of him
> 
> 
> 
> I kind of feel the same way! Like, obviously I know he's wrong, but if he were a wolf I would think there would be better/"easier" targets for a mislynch.
Click to expand...

I guess
the reason I see it as potentially wolfy is because he's piggybacking off of mewtini's read?
It's all a big gut thing to me that I'm really not sure about but I think is more likely to be correct than anything w/r/t Jack


----------



## Zori

Seshas said:


> I guess
> the reason I see it as potentially wolfy is because he's piggybacking off of mewtini's read?
> It's all a big gut thing to me that I'm really not sure about but I think is more likely to be correct than anything w/r/t Jack


I'm not saying that it's wolfy, I'm just saying that the read itself isn't town-indicative necessarily


----------



## Trebek

Seshas said:


> kokorico said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kyeugh said:
> 
> 
> 
> also i’m not sure if i like the koko wagon yet but i believe trebek believes it and it’s improving my view of him
> 
> 
> 
> I kind of feel the same way! Like, obviously I know he's wrong, but if he were a wolf I would think there would be better/"easier" targets for a mislynch.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I guess
> the reason I see it as potentially wolfy is because he's piggybacking off of mewtini's read?
Click to expand...

this is admittedly something that i still need to work on w.r.t. my Mafia play: a lot of times i will read people's readposts and go "oh ok this makes sense how come i didnt think of this myself" which then results in piggybacking

i also think my initial post might not have put enough emphasis on my gut reaction to koko's vote on herbe and leaned too much on mewt's read bc that was a concrete thing i could cite


----------



## Vipera Magnifica

*2 hours remain until the end of Day One.*

Vote Totals:
*JackPK* (2) (Herbe, M&F)
*Herbe* (1) (kokorico)
*Stryke* (1) (RedneckPhoenix)
*kokorico* (1) (Trebek)
*Trebek* (1) (Seshas)
*Will* (1) (Keldeo)



Spoiler: Vote History



*Keldeo votes Herbe's tarot deck (#30)*
Herbe votes Will (#31)
Trebek votes Will (#32)
Mist1422 votes Seshas (#55)
Herbe votes kokorico (#192)
Herbe unvotes (#194)
*Herbe votes JackPK (#240)
M&F votes JackPK (#246)
kokorico votes Herbe (#282)*
Seshas votes kyeugh (#283)
Mist1422 unvotes (#286)
*RedneckPhoenix votes Stryke (#292)
Trebek votes kokorico (#293)
Seshas votes Trebek (#301)*


----------



## qenya

well, we don't have a shortage of wagons any more which is good I guess,


----------



## Zori

Trebek said:


> this is admittedly something that i still need to work on w.r.t. my Mafia play: a lot of times i will read people's readposts and go "oh ok this makes sense how come i didnt think of this myself" which then results in piggybacking
> 
> i also think my initial post might not have put enough emphasis on my gut reaction to koko's vote on herbe and leaned too much on mewt's read bc that was a concrete thing i could cite


using other people's reads as a basis isn't bad
it's just not really a viable reason to defend you

my gut just went ech at that post


----------



## Trebek

Seshas said:


> Trebek said:
> 
> 
> 
> this is admittedly something that i still need to work on w.r.t. my Mafia play: a lot of times i will read people's readposts and go "oh ok this makes sense how come i didnt think of this myself" which then results in piggybacking
> 
> i also think my initial post might not have put enough emphasis on my gut reaction to koko's vote on herbe and leaned too much on mewt's read bc that was a concrete thing i could cite
> 
> 
> 
> using other people's reads as a basis isn't bad
> it's just not really a viable reason to defend you
> 
> my gut just went ech at that post
Click to expand...

ok, that makes sense! just wanted to make sure there wasnt any misinterpretations on either side


----------



## Mr. Ultracool

Voting *Will the Tarot Deck*, for now.


----------



## IndigoClaudia

sorry everyone. I've been pretty busy! Count me on as voting the most popular vote and i'll sadly be on my way for today... for now.


----------



## qenya

IndigoEmmy said:


> sorry everyone. I've been pretty busy! Count me on as voting the most popular vote and i'll sadly be on my way for today... for now.


...does this count as a vote for Jack, or what



Trebek said:


> the way i see it, it’s either v!koko genuinely believing that e wants to play around the UC claim and people’s reactions/lack thereof


slightly late to the party responding to this, but it's less that I "want" to base most of my thinking around Ultracool's claim etc., more that that's just the only really major thing that's happened so far to _generate_ some reactions

as I've said to death in previous games, I'm way more confident when there is something crunchy to work with


----------



## Stryke

RedneckPhoenix said:


> *stryke*


Sleep with one eye open


----------



## IndigoClaudia

it does indeed count as a vote for jack then. I'm a bit busy rn but can come back in a bit here.


----------



## qenya

Seshas said:


> using other people's reads as a basis isn't bad
> it's just not really a viable reason to defend you


while I don't disagree that the using-mewtini's-read thing is NAI, you did say that there was something you explicitly _didn't_ like about Trebek voting me

kind of curious what that was or if it's just a vague feeling you can't really articulate


----------



## Trebek

kokorico said:


> Trebek said:
> 
> 
> 
> the way i see it, it’s either v!koko genuinely believing that e wants to play around the UC claim and people’s reactions/lack thereof
> 
> 
> 
> slightly late to the party responding to this, but it's less that I "want" to base most of my thinking around Ultracool's claim etc., more that that's just the only really major thing that's happened so far to _generate_ some reactions
> 
> as I've said to death in previous games, I'm way more confident when there is something crunchy to work with
Click to expand...

that’s fair enough - and gives more believability to the v!koko side of the story

gonna hang out where i am for now but this response is making me more likely to change my vote by EoD


----------



## JackPK

M&F said:


> lastly, @mewtini, I gotta at least say for myself, this is more like my usual game looks like -- I'm an aggressive player. Eifie even noticed that part of me wasn't quite as there as usual back in tvt (although again, I'm positive this has a lot less to do with my alignment than with the fact that my head is above the water this time).


I'm glad you're feeling better nowadays! 



RedneckPhoenix said:


> *stryke*


tbh at the risk of using bad logic, this makes me slightly lean townreading rnp. I know past games' rands have no impact on this game's rand but I still feel like rnp has gone out of his way so much to mess with stryke as town in the past, that him messing with stryke again feels towny for him. I really don't want us to eventually yeet town!him for a _third_ game in a row for acting the way he always acts

---

as I was reading I quoted some Seshas posts that didn't make sense to me, but then other people brought them up too and it all got explained so like, now I feel like I've read four pages and have no fruit to show for it

Seshas I think you and I just have really dissimilar thought processes, you seem to look very closely at like, A-person-says-B-in-C-situation-which-means-D-E-and-F whereas I have a really hard time thinking in that kind of domino-falling kind of way. maybe it's just bc I have a lot less experience than you, idk

this realization has led me to soften my read on Seshas to neutral-ish bc it makes me think their Herbe shade was probably just something I wouldn't understand regardless of Seshas' alignment. still holding onto my slight green reads on others' reactions to it bc I still like those reactions

gonna go ISO all the current wagons so I can decide where to put my vote, brb


----------



## M&F

*Unvoting* Jack; now off to make as quick as I can about picking another wagon


----------



## JackPK

JackPK said:


> I really don't want us to eventually yeet town!him for a _third_ game in a row for acting the way he always acts


or, well, I haven't been paying attention to Snom mafia so idk whether he was in it or acted like this. so at-least-three games out of four, technically, I guess


----------



## qenya

IndigoEmmy said:


> it does indeed count as a vote for jack then. I'm a bit busy rn but can come back in a bit here.


I don't really understand where you're going with this, or if there's even anything to understand beyond the face-value interpretation of you're busy with real life, but I guess it's not worth thinking about right now

(it occurs to me that none of us have ever seen emmy playing as mafia and I have no idea how she would behave)


----------



## M&F

hmmmmm.... if nothing else, I feel like getting a public alignment check on *Trebek* might be pretty useful in terms of orienting our reads of others? so sure, might as well


----------



## Trebek

yeah i have (positive) thoughts about emmy’s entrance but that discussion can always wait :p


----------



## Stryke

I'm at work so I probably won't be here for EoD, so I'll park my vote on *RedneckPhoenix *because >:(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((


----------



## qenya

M&F said:


> hmmmmm.... if nothing else, I feel like getting a public alignment check on *Trebek* might be pretty useful in terms of orienting our reads of others? so sure, might as well


wait, what? didn't you say earlier that you thought his vote made you feel better about him


----------



## qenya

kokorico said:


> M&F said:
> 
> 
> 
> hmmmmm.... if nothing else, I feel like getting a public alignment check on *Trebek* might be pretty useful in terms of orienting our reads of others? so sure, might as well
> 
> 
> 
> wait, what? didn't you say earlier that you thought his vote made you feel better about him
Click to expand...

sorry, sorry, that was kyeugh, you changed your avatars at around the same time to things with similar colour schemes and I keep mixing you up

ignore me please


----------



## Trebek

kokorico said:


> M&F said:
> 
> 
> 
> hmmmmm.... if nothing else, I feel like getting a public alignment check on *Trebek* might be pretty useful in terms of orienting our reads of others? so sure, might as well
> 
> 
> 
> wait, what? didn't you say earlier that you thought his vote made you feel better about him
Click to expand...

i think that was skylar and you :p


----------



## Trebek

rip ninjad


----------



## JackPK

ISOing in fragmentary pieces and posting them as I go, so sorry, bear with me



Herbe said:


> Keldeo said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Herbe, what do you think of Jack's reads list?
> 
> 
> 
> idk i think jack made some fair assumptions and nothing really stands out to me that i disagree Especially with, i guess if i made a list to organize my thoughts id figure out better where i disagree or not
Click to expand...

if you come back to the thread before EOD and have any time to spare, I'd like to see your list! might be a little late in the day for that by now though   

---

I don't see anything that I read as an indicator one way or the other in Herbe's ISO (besides my previous approval of that one reaction to being sussed, and besides my selfish whiny impulse [which I am resisting] to vote him as an OMGUS on his vote on me, lol) so setting him aside for now


----------



## Novae

I have RNP as slight scum but I don't love Stryke's reaction

"here" until EoD


----------



## qenya

JackPK said:


> my selfish whiny impulse [which I am resisting] to vote him as an OMGUS on his vote on me


relatable tbh


----------



## kyeugh

JackPK said:


> tbh at the risk of using bad logic, this makes me slightly lean townreading rnp. I know past games' rands have no impact on this game's rand but I still feel like rnp has gone out of his way so much to mess with stryke as town in the past, that him messing with stryke again feels towny for him. I really don't want us to eventually yeet town!him for a _third_ game in a row for acting the way he always acts


 i disagree, i don’t think it really says anything about his alignment at all. he’d almost surely be doing this as scum as well


----------



## JackPK

Stryke said:


> as a perpetrator of thread-lurkery myself, mr ultracool doesnt seem too off to me; what hes said seems kind of in line with what id expect someone who normally lurks attempting to contribute more, based off my own experiences.


I understand if you aren't invested enough to have much in the way of thoughts, but how do you feel about folks' reactions to Ultracool's claim (summed up in koko's spreadsheet in #262) and how do you think folks should go about their night actions in regard to it?


----------



## qenya

kyeugh said:


> JackPK said:
> 
> 
> 
> tbh at the risk of using bad logic, this makes me slightly lean townreading rnp. I know past games' rands have no impact on this game's rand but I still feel like rnp has gone out of his way so much to mess with stryke as town in the past, that him messing with stryke again feels towny for him. I really don't want us to eventually yeet town!him for a _third_ game in a row for acting the way he always acts
> 
> 
> 
> i disagree, i don’t think it really says anything about his alignment at all. he’d almost surely be doing this as scum as well
Click to expand...

I agree that the fact he's continuing the rivalry isn't inherently AI in itself, but I do think he might be able to do it slightly more _effectively_ as mafia. Like, Stryke didn't die N0, and despite the vote RNP hasn't really been actively trying to build up a wagon - surely that counts for something.


----------



## kyeugh

kokorico said:


> kyeugh said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JackPK said:
> 
> 
> 
> tbh at the risk of using bad logic, this makes me slightly lean townreading rnp. I know past games' rands have no impact on this game's rand but I still feel like rnp has gone out of his way so much to mess with stryke as town in the past, that him messing with stryke again feels towny for him. I really don't want us to eventually yeet town!him for a _third_ game in a row for acting the way he always acts
> 
> 
> 
> i disagree, i don’t think it really says anything about his alignment at all. he’d almost surely be doing this as scum as well
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree that the fact he's continuing the rivalry isn't inherently AI in itself, but I do think he might be able to do it slightly more _effectively_ as mafia. Like, Stryke didn't die N0, and despite the vote RNP hasn't really been actively trying to build up a wagon - surely that counts for something.
Click to expand...

 i don’t really think so. he doesn’t actually hate stryke’s guts, the rivalry thing is just a weird meme. i don’t see him convincing the rest of the scumteam to gun stryke down n0 for haha lol meemz and i wouldn’t expect him to stick his neck out orchestrating some kind of actual wagon against him d1 either. i’m fairly certain this means nothing.


----------



## mewtini

hi sorry that i had to vanish. i'll be around until EoD!!


----------



## Keldeo

M&F said:


> hmmmmm.... if nothing else, I feel like getting a public alignment check on *Trebek* might be pretty useful in terms of orienting our reads of others? so sure, might as well


Do you think he’s likely to flip mafia or is this for information? What information specifically are you expecting to gain if the latter?


----------



## kyeugh

hm hm hm...  idrk, i don't love the jack wagon and none of the other ones are particularly calling my name either.  i think i'm gonna park on *seshas*. no super strong reason, i've just been getting vaguely disingenuous vibes that i can't quite artiuclate from them, and it seems like maybe other people have too? i honestly don't really care that much who gets lynched today because i think it's pretty much a crapshoot no matter what but this feels like as good a place as any to me.


----------



## Novae

kyeugh said:


> kokorico said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kyeugh said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JackPK said:
> 
> 
> 
> tbh at the risk of using bad logic, this makes me slightly lean townreading rnp. I know past games' rands have no impact on this game's rand but I still feel like rnp has gone out of his way so much to mess with stryke as town in the past, that him messing with stryke again feels towny for him. I really don't want us to eventually yeet town!him for a _third_ game in a row for acting the way he always acts
> 
> 
> 
> i disagree, i don’t think it really says anything about his alignment at all. he’d almost surely be doing this as scum as well
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree that the fact he's continuing the rivalry isn't inherently AI in itself, but I do think he might be able to do it slightly more _effectively_ as mafia. Like, Stryke didn't die N0, and despite the vote RNP hasn't really been actively trying to build up a wagon - surely that counts for something.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> i don’t really think so. he doesn’t actually hate stryke’s guts, the rivalry thing is just a weird meme. i don’t see him convincing the rest of the scumteam to gun stryke down n0 for haha lol meemz and i wouldn’t expect him to stick his neck out orchestrating some kind of actual wagon against him d1 either. i’m fairly certain this means nothing.
Click to expand...

i would absolutely believe both happening but I agree that it _probably_ means nothing


----------



## qenya

kyeugh said:


> kokorico said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kyeugh said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JackPK said:
> 
> 
> 
> tbh at the risk of using bad logic, this makes me slightly lean townreading rnp. I know past games' rands have no impact on this game's rand but I still feel like rnp has gone out of his way so much to mess with stryke as town in the past, that him messing with stryke again feels towny for him. I really don't want us to eventually yeet town!him for a _third_ game in a row for acting the way he always acts
> 
> 
> 
> i disagree, i don’t think it really says anything about his alignment at all. he’d almost surely be doing this as scum as well
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree that the fact he's continuing the rivalry isn't inherently AI in itself, but I do think he might be able to do it slightly more _effectively_ as mafia. Like, Stryke didn't die N0, and despite the vote RNP hasn't really been actively trying to build up a wagon - surely that counts for something.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> i don’t really think so. he doesn’t actually hate stryke’s guts, the rivalry thing is just a weird meme. i don’t see him convincing the rest of the scumteam to gun stryke down n0 for haha lol meemz and i wouldn’t expect him to stick his neck out orchestrating some kind of actual wagon against him d1 either. i’m fairly certain this means nothing.
Click to expand...

hmm, fair point I suppose, I kind of posted without thinking it through all the way

but either way I don't think I could get behind a wagon on either of them if it was based on nothing more than this


----------



## mewtini

i got ninja'd but will also go on *seshas* pending EoD craziness


----------



## mewtini

JackPK said:


> tbh at the risk of using bad logic, this makes me slightly lean townreading rnp. I know past games' rands have no impact on this game's rand but I still feel like rnp has gone out of his way so much to mess with stryke as town in the past, that him messing with stryke again feels towny for him. I really don't want us to eventually yeet town!him for a _third_ game in a row for acting the way he always acts


i think that this is fully NAI, but agree on that last sentence lol

as a sidenote i think this may be the game where i FINALLY back off on wagoning him because i feel so bad for fucking him over multiple times in tcodfia.,


M&F said:


> hmmmmm.... if nothing else, I feel like getting a public alignment check on *Trebek* might be pretty useful in terms of orienting our reads of others? so sure, might as well


mrmrmr infolynching


----------



## Keldeo

Could you elaborate on Seshas feeling disingenuous, Skylar?

I like Jack’s response to the pressure in that he seems to be like... actively holding himself back from votes, rather than looking for a target? I know I was like anticipating reasonable posting if and when he came back so perhaps confirmation biasing lol


----------



## Trebek

ugh this is the kind of EoD that makes me want to abstain, but i really shouldn’t 

what i should do is actually figure out the votecount bc i totally forgot lmao

i will *unvote* for now tho, i’m starting to come back around on the whole koko thing :p


----------



## JackPK

kyeugh, koko, Mist: good points all of you re: rnp/stryke. I hadn't considered I might be jumping to conclusions v!reading him, I revise my vibes back to neutral

---

Trebek ISO, mostly am no thoughts-head-empty about him but



Trebek said:


> i think the spreadsheet is NAI mostly bc i’m worried about the possible scenario where w!koko uses the spreadsheet to draw lines in the sand/divide town into factions over this UC business


I do want to save this quote to keep in mind and see how I feel about it after I ISO koko in a moment


----------



## mewtini

feeling weird about seshas for i think reasons similar to skylar - on tone she's reading a bit less ... genuinely helpful than normal? but i think it's also me going "sounds different than i'm used to. hmmm. fear" and i've always been afraid of seshas' wolfgame because i think she'd be pretty deeply capable there. at the same time i'm also fearful because if she's town i think she would be a huge d1 loss :'))


----------



## Keldeo

I seem to remember IndigoEmmy also being like “put my vote on the most popular person” in either TVTropes or Cats (as town)? It might just be a thing she does regardless of anything but I wanted to point it out


----------



## mewtini

i don't really want to go for koko because i think i'm tonereading em as town and maybe it's dumb but i like the spreadsheet thing for now, though i see trebek's point


----------



## mewtini

Keldeo said:


> I seem to remember IndigoEmmy also being like “put my vote on the most popular person” in either TVTropes or Cats (as town)? It might just be a thing she does regardless of anything but I wanted to point it out


yep, she did it a lot in tropes, like almost every time she voted


----------



## kyeugh

Keldeo said:


> Could you elaborate on Seshas feeling disingenuous, Skylar?


 would if i could, but i'm not really sure what it is honestly, which is why i'm not really trying to build up some compelling case here.  it just feels :| to me.  i guess i either just don't understand or outright disagree with most of the stuff they're posting.  their reads list looks pretty close to mine but like, upside down.  overall i think i have some kind of reservation about voting on anyone else but voting here just feels fine i guess.


----------



## Trebek

mewtini said:


> i don't really want to go for koko because i think i'm tonereading em as town and maybe it's dumb but i like the spreadsheet thing for now, though i see trebek's point


yeah, i kept it at NAI bc i liked it but was also scared of it :p


----------



## Novae

my brain is not functioning so I'm trying to replace it with the celeste ost

it's not working


----------



## kyeugh

i can also see where trebek is coming from fwiw, i was vaguely pinged by the ultracool discussion... but i'm willing to give koko the benefit of the doubt for now, i think it could be coming from town.  since trebek has said that he's trying to play a more aggressive game, though, i can see why he might not be as willing to do that.


----------



## mewtini

i also really did not like koko's comment about ultracool but i don't know if i'm willing to vote on it, though if the tides turned there i'd understand tbh. my perception of koko's towngame now is that e makes a fair number of paranoia/off-kilter reads so i'm wondering if the uc thing was symptomatic of that


----------



## JackPK

juggling koko ISO (brb with that soon) and checking new posts inthread, but does anyone have an up-to-date vote count?


----------



## storm

I am here but. mostly afraid of voting! I feel like every post is "that's good reasoning -" "that is ALSO good reasoning" and I have no real reads or vibes of my own to go on yet ;;


----------



## storm

hopefully in the next day or two I will be able to contribute more,,,


----------



## kyeugh

Vote Totals:
*Seshas* (2) (kyeugh, mewtini)
*Trebek* (2) (Seshas, M&F)
*JackPK* (1) (Herbe)
*Herbe* (1) (kokorico)
*Stryke* (1) (RedneckPhoenix)
*Will* (2) (Keldeo, Mr. Ultracool)

i think this is correct?


----------



## kyeugh

kyeugh said:


> Vote Totals:
> *Seshas* (2) (kyeugh, mewtini)
> *Trebek* (2) (Seshas, M&F)
> *JackPK* (1) (Herbe)
> *Herbe* (1) (kokorico)
> *Stryke* (1) (RedneckPhoenix)
> *RedneckPhoenix* (1) (Stryke)
> *Will* (2) (Keldeo, Mr. Ultracool)
> 
> i think this is correct?


oh wait, stryke voted rnp.  corrected.


----------



## Trebek

yeah, i think i got that too


----------



## mewtini

ty queen
i forgot how many fucking wagons there were

@Herbe i'm curious to hear where you're at, it sounded like your jack vote was kind of a hunch one. has anything changed?


----------



## Trebek

lol ninjad by being wrong OOF


----------



## Keldeo

Okay now that Snom Mafia is over I can say that if storm is mafia I feel they’re probably working along similar lines to sande in that game, and koko’s strangely confident townread on me there was due to em having a cop check on me.



kyeugh said:


> Keldeo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Could you elaborate on Seshas feeling disingenuous, Skylar?
> 
> 
> 
> would if i could, but i'm not really sure what it is honestly, which is why i'm not really trying to build up some compelling case here.  it just feels :| to me.  i guess i either just don't understand or outright disagree with most of the stuff they're posting.  their reads list looks pretty close to mine but like, upside down.  overall i think i have some kind of reservation about voting on anyone else but voting here just feels fine i guess.
Click to expand...

Hmm, okay... I guess I feel like I can understand many of the conclusions they’re drawing given the information that they have, and so I don’t feel super comfortable voting them today.


----------



## Trebek

my gut wants to throw a self defense vote on seshas but i’m going to force myself to be patient and reread before i do that


----------



## kyeugh

Keldeo said:


> Okay now that Snom Mafia is over I can say that if storm is mafia I feel they’re probably working along similar lines to sande in that game


 agreed


Keldeo said:


> koko’s strangely confident townread on me there was due to em having a cop check on me.


 oh, good point...  i think this might make me feel a bit worse about em.


----------



## Vipera Magnifica

@IndigoEmmy please cast your vote in *bolded text* for it to be counted

also, I won't be counting "vote for the most popular wagon" since it doesn't actually affect the outcome


----------



## Keldeo

Trebek can you refresh me on how you feel about Seshas?


----------



## mewtini

Trebek said:


> my gut wants to throw a self defense vote on seshas but i’m going to force myself to be patient and reread before i do that


idk how to articulate but i feel kind of weird about this post


----------



## Zori

ok I am here


Mist1422 said:


> my brain is not functioning so I'm trying to replace it with the celeste ost
> 
> it's not working


Replacing your brain doesn't sound healthy

Now that Snom mafia is over I can say stuff without spilling that I do have a sort of wolf meta on mewt and that kyeugh was 3p


----------



## JackPK

Halfway through my koko ISO and drowning flipping back and forth between it and new posts



kokorico said:


> Mr. Ultracool said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is so wolfy about me? Should I claim more than being the Wheel of Fortune and giving out free items to whoever visits me like a friendly neighbourhood PEZ- Dispenser?
> 
> 
> 
> Eek! Big side-eye at this, given that you also fakeclaimed an obscure convoluted role relating to an items mechanic in Cats (2019). Tbqh, if it were later in the Day, I would immediately vote for you just based on that.
Click to expand...

Revisiting this, now that is is later in the Day, how have your thoughts changed/not changed since then?


----------



## qenya

mewtini said:


> feeling weird about seshas for i think reasons similar to skylar - on tone she's reading a bit less ... genuinely helpful than normal? but i think it's also me going "sounds different than i'm used to. hmmm. fear" and i've always been afraid of seshas' wolfgame because i think she'd be pretty deeply capable there. at the same time i'm also fearful because if she's town i think she would be a huge d1 loss :'))


Forgive me, but I don't understand how you go from "I'm not sure whether or not my scumread on her is valid" and "If she's town then yeeting her would be bad" to voting for her.


----------



## kyeugh

mewtini said:


> Trebek said:
> 
> 
> 
> my gut wants to throw a self defense vote on seshas but i’m going to force myself to be patient and reread before i do that
> 
> 
> 
> idk how to articulate but i feel kind of weird about this post
Click to expand...

 same, mostly because keldeo (?) said earlier that he liked how jack was restraining himself from placing votes, so this felt somewhat like "ah i can do this and it will make people townread me! " but honestly i don't think that's what's happening


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

sorry i disappeared i went on an island trip. this game started right as soon as i went on vacation :P


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

i bought fudge!


----------



## mewtini

kokorico said:


> Forgive me, but I don't understand how you go from "I'm not sure whether or not my scumread on her is valid" and "If she's town then yeeting her would be bad" to voting for her.


the second two things are coinciding tbh
she's where i feel the most fine about sciencewagoning for now, it's just that it would also suck if she flipped green because she's a really strong player. it was sort of an afterthought that i threw in at the same time as voting, because it's not a vote i'm putting down because i think she's acting super scummy or w/e - just that i feel uneasy


----------



## storm

Keldeo said:


> Okay now that Snom Mafia is over I can say that if storm is mafia I feel they’re probably working along similar lines to sande in that game, and koko’s strangely confident townread on me there was due to em having a cop check on me.


I haven't been following snom mafia at all, what was sande doing??


----------



## Zori

redux: my read on trebek is largely gut vibes but I feel better about it than any other wagon


----------



## mewtini

mewtini said:


> the second two things are coinciding tbh


*last two things


----------



## mewtini

i'm ngl i'm still floundering so i think i will just have to deal with having rapidly fluctuating reads until i get to properly go over things during Night hours


----------



## qenya

JackPK said:


> Halfway through my koko ISO and drowning flipping back and forth between it and new posts
> 
> 
> 
> kokorico said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. Ultracool said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is so wolfy about me? Should I claim more than being the Wheel of Fortune and giving out free items to whoever visits me like a friendly neighbourhood PEZ- Dispenser?
> 
> 
> 
> Eek! Big side-eye at this, given that you also fakeclaimed an obscure convoluted role relating to an items mechanic in Cats (2019). Tbqh, if it were later in the Day, I would immediately vote for you just based on that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Revisiting this, now that is is later in the Day, how have your thoughts changed/not changed since then?
Click to expand...

My opinion hasn't changed about the likely veracity of his claim, but since a quorum of other people seem to like the idea of leaving him for a Night to see if we can test it one way or another, I'm happy to go along with it for now.

(NB: this is probably going to be my last post before EoD because dinner is ready)


----------



## storm

I am actually this unsure at all times but if that's offputting/scummy I can definitely try to tone it down!!


----------



## Trebek

Keldeo said:


> Trebek can you refresh me on how you feel about Seshas?


i’m sort of on the fence about seshas (as long as i don’t let my judgement get affected by “lel they’re voting me”)

i felt a bit weird about the press on herbe early on, but on the other hand i liked the spec on how to handle UC’s claim


----------



## Zori

storm said:


> I am actually this unsure at all times but if that's offputting/scummy I can definitely try to tone it down!!


I don't think it is tbh
it'll come with time/experience and forcing it is a valid strategy but not necessary to play a good game


----------



## Keldeo

*Trebek*

I didn’t love MF’s vote for him and I felt he’s been genuine but like 

mmm man idk


----------



## mewtini

storm said:


> I am actually this unsure at all times but if that's offputting/scummy I can definitely try to tone it down!!


yeah fwiw i think the valuable thing is just having a transparent thought process
i am constantly confused but i just talk a lot and hope i get TRed for being open! :'D!


----------



## kyeugh

Keldeo said:


> *Trebek*
> 
> I didn’t love MF’s vote for him and I felt he’s been genuine but like
> 
> mmm man idk


? is this just a "not seshas" vote then


----------



## Zori

Keldeo said:


> *Trebek*
> 
> I didn’t love MF’s vote for him and I felt he’s been genuine but like
> 
> mmm man idk


understandable
I just don't feel like culling lowposters?
maybe that's what we should do today to got more time to organize thoughts idk


----------



## Keldeo

Science? at least?

Storm, can you elaborate a little bit on why specifically you don’t want to seem that way? Just trying to get a better sense about how you’re thinking about the game. It’s okay if you don’t have any sure thoughts to share, any thoughts at all are appreciated.


----------



## JackPK

kokorico said:


> My opinion hasn't changed about the likely veracity of his claim, but since a quorum of other people seem to like the idea of leaving him for a Night to see if we can test it one way or another, I'm happy to go along with it for now.
> 
> (NB: this is probably going to be my last post before EoD because dinner is ready)


OK that makes sense! tbh I was about to be suspicious of you voting Herbe when you'd recently said you'd like to vote Ultracool, but I am satisfied by this explanation


----------



## mewtini

hrng we have 12 to EoD right?


----------



## Zori

If storm is V then Keldeo is likely V glgl


----------



## Trebek

i’m just unsure about where/if to vote rn bc half of my brain is going “just vote someone they have a higher chance of being scum than you” and the other half is going “don’t take the risk of getting rid of a player who’s better than me”


----------



## mewtini

huh


----------



## Zori

Keldeo said:


> Science? at least?
> 
> Storm, can you elaborate a little bit on why specifically you don’t want to seem that way? Just trying to get a better sense about how you’re thinking about the game. It’s okay if you don’t have any sure thoughts to share, any thoughts at all are appreciated.


re: read explanation
This is definitely not what I would post at a townie as wolf
I would be going hard for the pocket probably


----------



## Keldeo

kyeugh said:


> Keldeo said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Trebek*
> 
> I didn’t love MF’s vote for him and I felt he’s been genuine but like
> 
> mmm man idk
> 
> 
> 
> ? is this just a "not seshas" vote then
Click to expand...

Yeah kinda? I don’t know how I feel about that but I also feel like to be effective right now I need to hold with the thoughts I had in the early game, among which are Seshas v, because I don’t feel good about my later thoughts

Also I guess no other wagon looks super appealing to me. I guess Stryke and RNP are ~rand to me, and I liked Herbe’s tone in that “stream of consciousness” thing but idk


----------



## mewtini

man i was kind of meh about trebek's changing meta and figured it was NAI but the recent posting is throwing me off a lot


----------



## Trebek

mewtini said:


> man i was kind of meh about trebek's changing meta and figured it was NAI but the recent posting is throwing me off a lot


in which direction?


----------



## Zori

I don't think Trebek's posting re: his vote is very alignment indicative fwiw


----------



## Keldeo

Also I’d maybe expect Seshas to be burying Trebek harder here if w/v

You could say the same in reverse I guess.


----------



## storm

hmm mostly I just. don't want to be a hindrance? and if posting off the top of my head manages to _read_ as suspiciously naive/innocent/unsure then it'll risk getting in the way of anything I _can_ contribute later down the line? 

idk I only participated before in night action-heavy games before where I rarely did anything, so the intensity of scrutiny and discussion in the day makes me wanna be Max Helpful at all possible times


----------



## mewtini

Seshas said:


> I don't think Trebek's posting re: his vote is very alignment indicative fwiw


how are you reading it?



Trebek said:


> i’m sort of on the fence about seshas (as long as i don’t let my judgement get affected by “lel they’re voting me”)
> 
> i felt a bit weird about the press on herbe early on, but on the other hand i liked the spec on how to handle UC’s claim


this seems like weird grounds to refuse a self-pres vote and i'm like x_x 7 minutes


----------



## JackPK

I hate that all my ISOs basically boiled down to "nothing jumped out at me, they seem neutral vibes-y I guess"

tentatively I feel like voting *Seshas* just bc I have concluded I don't understand their thought process, so in the absence of any indicators, they would be the least damaging loss to towngame imo? I am absolutely open to being persuaded to unvote in the next 7 minutes though


----------



## mewtini

gutswitch *trebek*, maybe my seshas shaderead was off because i seem to be the only one who strongly stood by it earlier


----------



## JackPK

I know that's a bad reason to vote but I don't have any better reasons to vote and I don't think not-voting is a good option either


----------



## mewtini

mewtini said:


> this seems like weird grounds to refuse a self-pres vote and i'm like x_x 7 minutes


i guess this kind of implies i think seshas is w or something but i'm just not following trebek's logic, is the point


----------



## Zori

storm said:


> hmm mostly I just. don't want to be a hindrance? and if posting off the top of my head manages to _read_ as suspiciously naive/innocent/unsure then it'll risk getting in the way of anything I _can_ contribute later down the line?
> 
> idk I only participated before in night action-heavy games before where I rarely did anything, so the intensity of scrutiny and discussion in the day makes me wanna be Max Helpful at all possible times


my strategy is "post anything that's in your head" and worry about how other people see you later
at some point you have to consider it, but just putting what you're thinking out is a good way to help the village


----------



## kyeugh

mewtini said:


> man i was kind of meh about trebek's changing meta and figured it was NAI but the recent posting is throwing me off a lot


 can you expand on this
i've actually been thinking "huh i can follow his train of thought way better than usual" and it occurred to me that maybe he lost me before because he was thinking organically in a way that i don't, and he's making more sense to me now because his train of thought is manufactured  but i don't really like, believe that. it's just a thought i had


----------



## Trebek

hnnnng

so after spending a while thinking about wether or not i wanted to go self-pres from a social/thread point of view, i realized that i was neglecting to consider wether or not i wanted to go self-pews from a mechanical point of view

*seshas*


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

i think everything will be solved if we all vote stryke


----------



## Trebek

pres*


----------



## mewtini

i don't know how well i can articulate in 5 minutes but his changing metas to be more aggressive to the point of making the post about koko earlier seems incongruous with his inability to vote right now as a leading wagon


----------



## Zori

I might as well claim
I'm watcher, hence I suggested the plan
glgl


----------



## Zori

Seshas said:


> I might as well claim
> I'm watcher, hence I suggested the plan
> glgl


hierophant


----------



## kyeugh

mewtini said:


> i don't know how well i can articulate in 5 minutes but his changing metas to be more aggressive to the point of making the post about koko earlier seems incongruous with his inability to vote right now as a leading wagon


 hmmm, i can agree with this.  i wish i had more time to mull it over, i'm not sure i want to change my vote this close to EoD...


Seshas said:


> I might as well claim
> I'm watcher, hence I suggested the plan
> glgl


dang.  results...?


----------



## mewtini

i vaguely wondered if seshas was softing watcher earlier too so i guess this solidifes it lol


----------



## Zori

oh yeah results lol
n0 noone visited kyeugh


----------



## JackPK

Seshas said:


> oh yeah results lol
> n0 noone visited kyeugh


@kyeugh do you have any evidence to suggest Seshas might be lying?


----------



## kyeugh

send it
*trebek*


----------



## Keldeo

Mm believe Seshas 

Trebek can you claim?


----------



## JackPK

and/or anyone else did you target kyeugh? I must wait 4 seconds before performing this action


----------



## kyeugh

JackPK said:


> Seshas said:
> 
> 
> 
> oh yeah results lol
> n0 noone visited kyeugh
> 
> 
> 
> @kyeugh do you have any evidence to suggest Seshas might be lying?
Click to expand...

 nope.


----------



## Trebek

Devil (XV) (got i hate VM’s sense of humor)
one shot Powerful vig


----------



## IndigoClaudia

Vipera Magnifica said:


> @IndigoEmmy please cast your vote in *bolded text* for it to be counted
> 
> also, I won't be counting "vote for the most popular wagon" since it doesn't actually affect the outcome


then *abstain* since i won't be able to properly judge until tommorow.


----------



## JackPK

*unvote*

fuck I don't know where else to put my vote


----------



## Zori

frantically draws tarot cards to get a reading on the wagon situation


----------



## Zori

gdi
*Seshas*


----------



## Vipera Magnifica

*The day phase has now ended. Vote totals will be posted shortly.*


----------



## mewtini

oh god


----------



## kyeugh

if there was more than one minute left i might switch to kokorico.


----------



## Trebek

my guess is that my role implies that there’s a bulletproof maf?


----------



## Zori

*unvote*


----------



## Keldeo

Man I have a sinking feeling about this Trebek vote but think Seshas v

glgl...


----------



## Zori

F***


----------



## Vipera Magnifica

Vote Totals:
*Trebek* (4) (M&F, Keldeo, mewtini, kyeugh)
*Seshas* (2) (Trebek, Seshas)
*JackPK* (1) (Herbe)
*Herbe* (1) (kokorico)
*Stryke* (1) (RedneckPhoenix)
*RedneckPhoenix* (1) (Stryke)
*(abstain)* (1) (IndigoEmmy)
*Will* (1) (Mr. Ultracool)



Spoiler: Vote History



Keldeo votes Herbe's tarot deck (#30)
Herbe votes Will (#31)
Trebek votes Will (#32)
Mist1422 votes Seshas (#55)
Herbe votes kokorico (#192)
Herbe unvotes (#194)
*Herbe votes JackPK (#240)*
M&F votes JackPK (#246)
*kokorico votes Herbe (#282)*
Seshas votes kyeugh (#283)
Mist1422 unvotes (#286)
*RedneckPhoenix votes Stryke (#292)*
Trebek votes kokorico (#293)
Seshas votes Trebek (#301)
*Mr. Ultracool votes Will (#334)*
M&F unvotes (#342)
*M&F votes Trebek (#345)
Stryke votes RedneckPhoenix (#347)*
kyeugh votes Seshas (#361)
mewtini votes Seshas (#364)
Trebek unvotes (#367)
*Keldeo votes Trebek (#407)*
JackPK votes Seshas (#425)
*mewtini votes Trebek (#426)
Trebek votes Seshas (#431)
kyeugh votes Trebek (#441)
IndigoEmmy votes abstain (#446)*
JackPK unvotes (#447)
*Seshas votes Seshas (#449)*



If any votes are wrong or missing, you have *10 minutes *to alert me to them.


----------



## Vipera Magnifica

Having lost a pillar of their community, the people of Mondeville were out for blood. Some of the Arcanite elders began to suspect each other of being involved in the murder, and several accusations were made despite a lack of any real evidence. By nightfall, the town’s frenzied calls for justice led to a mob seizing Trebek, who they believed to be instrumental in the previous night’s killing.

---

As the flames licked the dark sky above, embers danced among the stars. The Arcanites bowed their heads in silent mourning.

“Bit disrespectful, if you ask me,” grumbled Merato “but two birds with one stone, as they say…”

The sound of screaming subsided until naught could be heard but the roar of the flames.
* 
Trebek is dead. He was mafia. 

Night One has started. Please send in your night actions. Day Two will begin July 7th at 4PM EDT (UTC-4:00).*




Spoiler: Player List



@mewtini
@M&F
@IndigoEmmy 
@Herbe
@Stryke
@JackPK
@Keldeo 
@rari_teh
@kokorico
@Mist1422
@storm
@Butterfree
@Mr. Ultracool
@RedneckPhoenix
@kyeugh
@Seshas
@Trebek
@Zero Moment





Spoiler: Game Summary



*N0
rari_teh* was killed. She was *not mafia*.

*D1
Trebek* was killed. He was *mafia*.


----------



## Vipera Magnifica

*Part Two: Through the Ashes*





"Father Seshas... Your breakfast is ready." The attendant girl announced as she approached the transept. "Salted eggs and porridge... Kyla made a little extra for you today. I know you're going to l-"

The tray fell to the ground with a clatter and landed on the pool of blood. With a trembling hand, the girl reached toward the door of the confessional. "Father Seshas... are you..."

The girl let out a scream as the priest's body slumped to the floor.

---

"An attack on our church?" Vicar Merato fumed. The small council watched the man in silence in the low light of the vicar's chambers.

A bald man with a gaunt face spoke. "I say there's no point in hiding it. A man bled to death in the streets this morning. The people are already demanding justice."

"So the murder yesterday was not an isolated incident," said a bespectacled man with bony features and a shock of dark hair. The council began to murmur amongst themselves.

"Whatever group is doing this clearly isn't going to stop just because we killed one of their own," the vicar remarked. "We have to remove this threat root and stem before any more innocent lives are lost."

"Just what could these killers possibly want?" asked the man with glasses.

"Power," replied the bald man. "In the end, it's always about power."

The council sat in silence as the lamp light flickered across their faces. A few moments passed before a tall, auburn-haired woman spoke. "I think I've heard enough. We will hold a Divine Tribunal in the town square, just as our ancestors did. _Someone_ must be made to answer for these crimes."

"Agreed, Lady Myranda." the Vicar rose from his chair. "Gather the people at once. All of you are dismissed."

As the council shuffled out, Vicar Merato was staring into the lamp's dim flames. "Dodley..." the man called out.

"Yes, Vicar Merato?" the scrawny attendant was standing in one corner of the room with his back against the wall.

"Refill my wine, and... go home for now. Tell your parents to come to the town square." the Vicar requested.

The flame petered out and left a trickle of smoke.

*Seshas is dead. They were not mafia.
kokorico is dead. E was not mafia.

You may now post and discuss who to lynch today. Day Two will end July 9th at 4PM EDT (UTC-4:00). *




Spoiler: Player List



@mewtini
@M&F
@IndigoEmmy
@Herbe
@Stryke
@JackPK
@Keldeo
@rari_teh
@kokorico
@Mist1422
@storm
@Butterfree
@Mr. Ultracool
@RedneckPhoenix
@kyeugh
@Seshas
@Trebek
@Zero Moment





Spoiler: Game Summary



*N0
rari_teh* was killed. She was *not mafia*.

*D1
Trebek* was killed. He was *mafia*.

*N1
Seshas* was killed. They were *not mafia*.
*kokorico* was killed. E was *not mafia*.


----------



## kyeugh

welp my plan was to push on koko right away so i guess i have been rendered useless for the day.  see you guys tomorrow tbh


----------



## mewtini

hello vig tbh :(
also F espurr gang indeed

i did my readthrough as promised and will resurface with questions later, god willing. either way i'm actually going to be around toDay, yay!


----------



## kyeugh

actually i am going to do one of these.
*herbe*


----------



## Novae

this is quite unfortunate tbh


----------



## M&F

bwahahahaha holy shit I still can't believe that lynching trebek _worked_. at least, now we know exactly why rari_teh bit it first

god, I guess I'm still not used to this new type of EoD at all. I'm a slow girl! at least, I did learn my lesson from last time, and did the post reading I meant to do before nighttime was up

so hey, you guys mind if I diagonally park this here on *mewtini*? I'll be sure to tell you guys all about it, but it wouldn't be any fun without a spot of quiet pressure first, eh?

god man it really, really sucks that kokorico bit it. ask me to elaborate why later. like a lot later


----------



## Butterfree

oh my GOD on Sunday I was starting to catch up on the game when my friend elyvorg alerted me that she'd just posted a giant Tumblr post she'd been working on, and by the time I was done reading that I was like "Hmm. I feel like I was doing something before I started reading this. What was I doing? Eh, can't have been that important," and then I went and answered some Tumblr asks about Icelandic and did not remember mafia until ten (10) minutes after EoD


----------



## Butterfree

Anyway some real curveballs here, first somehow lynching mafia on D1 and then two kills, what. I guess this was a vig?


----------



## JackPK

now I really want to know just how many Von!tarot cards Tofu created

I meant to go back through the thread during the night and inspect Trebek interactions to try to look for any suspicious behavior, but then I just... did not have the energy to. maybe during toDay I will manage to try to do that

I want to ask if anyone got an item from Ultracool last night and can thus confirm his roleclaim, but on the other hand that would out that person as "has a night action that targets someone" which, depending on the role, may or may not be info that's safe to share so early in the game? idk I guess I just suggest that if you're in a position to be able to confirm, use your best judgment as to whether it's more helpful to confirm it now or to continue to conceal the fact that you have a night action


----------



## kyeugh

what if the mafia killed koko and seshas got shot by uc


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

i accomplished nothing last night
*stryke*


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

not last night. i meant last day. fuck


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

in and of that stryke is still alive.


----------



## storm

oh wow this is a lot

hopefully I will be more functional for this day!


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

M&F said:


> god man it really, really sucks that kokorico bit it. ask me to elaborate why later. like a lot later


elaborate


----------



## JackPK

actually no this isn't my full deep dive into Trebek interactions yet, but here is a quick vote analysis (all votes on or by a dead player are included, all other votes are pruned for space reasons)



Vipera Magnifica said:


> Vote Totals:
> *Trebek* (4) (M&F, Keldeo, mewtini, kyeugh)
> *Seshas* (2) (Trebek, Seshas)
> *Herbe* (1) (kokorico)
> 
> Trebek votes Will (#32)
> Mist1422 votes Seshas (#55)
> Herbe votes kokorico (#192)
> Herbe unvotes kokorico (#194)
> *kokorico votes Herbe (#282)*
> Seshas votes kyeugh (#283)
> Mist1422 unvotes Seshas (#286)
> Trebek votes kokorico (#293)
> Seshas votes Trebek (#301)
> *M&F votes Trebek (#345)*
> kyeugh votes Seshas (#361)
> mewtini votes Seshas (#364)
> Trebek unvotes kokorico (#367)
> *Keldeo votes Trebek (#407)*
> JackPK votes Seshas (#425)
> *mewtini votes Trebek (#426)
> Trebek votes Seshas (#431)
> kyeugh votes Trebek (#441)*
> JackPK unvotes Seshas (#447)
> *Seshas votes Seshas (#449)*


If kokorico were still alive, I think vote #293 would 75% confidence clear em (scum would not want to start a yeet wagon on scum), and for the same reason, if Seshas were still alive, I think vote #301 would 75% confidence clear them as well.

Wagonomics analysis on Trebek vs. Seshas (abbreviated T and S, parentheses are total number of votes on respective wagons at that moment, interesting votes bolded): +Mist S (0-1), -Mist S (0-0), +Seshas T (1-0), +*M&F T (2-0)*, +kyeugh S (2-1), +mewtini S (2-2), +Keldeo T (3-2), +me S (3-3), *+mewtini T (4-2)*, +Trebek S (4-3), *+kyeugh T (5-2)*, -me S (5-1), +Seshas S (4-2)

Basically to explain why I find those votes interesting: mewtini and kyeugh's votes, in combination, shifted the vote from a tie or near-tie to a Trebek blowout, so that makes me townread them (scum would not want to decisively move the vote onto scum). M&F being an early vote on Trebek also reinforces my townread on her (scum would not want to give momentum to a wagon on scum that's barely started)


----------



## Butterfree

I guess Ultracool could also have actually had a mafia role that kills anyone who visits him... I think if you did visit Ultracool last night, it probably _would_ be better to tell us; just saying you have a night action that targets someone doesn't really give all that much away in a role madness game, and it'd be worthwhile information.


----------



## JackPK

RedneckPhoenix said:


> M&F said:
> 
> 
> 
> god man it really, really sucks that kokorico bit it. ask me to elaborate why later. like a lot later
> 
> 
> 
> elaborate
Click to expand...

what do the words "a lot" mean to you


----------



## Mr. Ultracool

RedneckPhoenix said:


> M&F said:
> 
> 
> 
> god man it really, really sucks that kokorico bit it. ask me to elaborate why later. like a lot later
> 
> 
> 
> elaborate
Click to expand...

Or don't, if it would involve claiming a Powet Role. On the other hand, if it's just something kokorico confided to you per whatever mysterious means, you should probably share it


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

JackPK said:


> RedneckPhoenix said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> M&F said:
> 
> 
> 
> god man it really, really sucks that kokorico bit it. ask me to elaborate why later. like a lot later
> 
> 
> 
> elaborate
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> what do the words "a lot" mean to you
Click to expand...

somewhere you park a car or maybe a bus


----------



## M&F

kyeugh said:


> what if the mafia killed koko and seshas got shot by uc


for what it's worth I think this is pretty likely, specially because it possibly makes more sense for the mafia not to have gone after seshas this previous night -- I'd have given it good odds that she was being docced at that point

I suppose that, if this is correct, then the fact that nobody _else_ died possibly means that town as a whole stuck to the plan, after all.



RedneckPhoenix said:


> M&F said:
> 
> 
> 
> god man it really, really sucks that kokorico bit it. ask me to elaborate why later. like a lot later
> 
> 
> 
> elaborate
Click to expand...

later


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

RedneckPhoenix said:


> M&F said:
> 
> 
> 
> god man it really, really sucks that kokorico bit it. ask me to elaborate why later. like a lot later
> 
> 
> 
> elaborate
Click to expand...

later
[/QUOTE]

how about now


----------



## Keldeo

I kind of want to clear everyone on the Trebek wagon just for being on the Trebek wagon. It's not out of the realm of possibility that someone bussed, but I think it's unlikely and it's not a route I personally want to go down today. He has other partners. 

I assume Seshas watched Mr. Ultracool so I wonder if they got anything. Mr. Ultracool, are you like informed when someone gets one of your items? How is it decided which item they get?


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

fuck i annihilated the formatting on that


----------



## Keldeo

Keldeo said:


> It's not out of the realm of possibility that someone bussed, but I think it's unlikely


MF, mewtini, and Skylar are quoting this in mafia chat and laughing at me, aren't they.


----------



## M&F

RedneckPhoenix said:


> M&F said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RedneckPhoenix said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> M&F said:
> 
> 
> 
> god man it really, really sucks that kokorico bit it. ask me to elaborate why later. like a lot later
> 
> 
> 
> elaborate
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> later
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> how about now
Click to expand...

nah. later


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

it is currently later


----------



## Keldeo

RedneckPhoenix said:


> it is currently later


What makes you want to know right now?


----------



## storm

I would assume that giving out items would have to be randomized - maybe you pm vm to randomize it and then he tells you what to give out? - but maybe I am wildly overthinking it


----------



## M&F

like way later


----------



## Mr. Ultracool

RedneckPhoenix said:


> RedneckPhoenix said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> M&F said:
> 
> 
> 
> god man it really, really sucks that kokorico bit it. ask me to elaborate why later. like a lot later
> 
> 
> 
> elaborate
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> later
Click to expand...

how about now
[/QUOTE]

I know that I've basically got no room to argue here, seeing how I argued that non-essential information should be shared on D1, but this sounds pretty fishy. Is there any specific reason you'd want to know, or are you just maf/curious?


----------



## Mr. Ultracool

storm said:


> I would assume that giving out items would have to be randomized - maybe you pm vm to randomize it and then he tells you what to give out? - but maybe I am wildly overthinking it


Yup. The items I'm giving out, at least, are so random that even I don't know what the recipient will get or, indeed, if there even is a recipient. A Watcher with Smith-capabilities would probably be slightly OP, anyways


----------



## kyeugh

M&F said:


> I'd have given it good odds that she was being docced at that point


 extremely good point honestly


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

"dude like i've got some real great info here like primo stuff and it might save the day"

"ok then share it"

"nah"


----------



## kyeugh

mfw


----------



## Keldeo

I'm wondering if anyone thinks someone is particularly likely or particularly unlikely to be a mafia partner to Trebek. 



kyeugh said:


> M&F said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd have given it good odds that she was being docced at that point
> 
> 
> 
> extremely good point honestly
Click to expand...

Ehh, if Seshas was targeted by a doctor, I'd assume that would stop them from dying no matter the source of the death. 

My "let's let him self-resolve" instinct on Mr. Ultracool is cooling, but I'll wait until everyone checks in.


----------



## Stryke

ok i realized this after EoD but I actually have legitimate reason to suspect RNP a lil bit now (wow! I actually have a read on someone??) so uh. *RedneckPhoenix*


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

kyeugh said:


> View attachment 674
> mfw


every game you make me wonder why i'm targetting stryke and not you.


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

Stryke said:


> ok i realized this after EoD but I actually have legitimate reason to suspect RNP a lil bit now (wow! I actually have a read on someone??) so uh. *RedneckPhoenix*


your end will come swiftly


----------



## kyeugh

Keldeo said:


> Ehh, if Seshas was targeted by a doctor, I'd assume that would stop them from dying no matter the source of the death.


mm, maybe, but regardless i think seshas probably wasn’t the mafia kill.


----------



## Stryke

i guess i have to do a bit of a roleclaim but w/e. essentially my role just tells me who visits me each night; not sure what the official name for that is but thats what it is. no night actions, i just get a list at the end of each night. anyway, rnp claims he roleblocked me n0, yet, at the end of that phase, it said no one had targeted me. so either theres some kind of 2 player roleblocking tomfoolery occurring here, or rnp is leaving something out


----------



## mewtini

kyeugh said:


> Keldeo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ehh, if Seshas was targeted by a doctor, I'd assume that would stop them from dying no matter the source of the death.
> 
> 
> 
> mm, maybe, but regardless i think seshas probably wasn’t the mafia kill.
Click to expand...

do you think that just because she was a likely doctor target, or for other reasons too?


----------



## M&F

Keldeo said:


> kyeugh said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> M&F said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd have given it good odds that she was being docced at that point
> 
> 
> 
> extremely good point honestly
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ehh, if Seshas was targeted by a doctor, I'd assume that would stop them from dying no matter the source of the death.
Click to expand...

to word it more clearly: it's evidently unlikely that seshas was, in fact, protected this previous night -- but if I were the mafia, I would have assumed her to be a likely prority for protection. so, either the mafia didn't think the same way as me, or they killed kokorico


----------



## kyeugh

mewtini said:


> kyeugh said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Keldeo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ehh, if Seshas was targeted by a doctor, I'd assume that would stop them from dying no matter the source of the death.
> 
> 
> 
> mm, maybe, but regardless i think seshas probably wasn’t the mafia kill.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> do you think that just because she was a likely doctor target, or for other reasons too?
Click to expand...

 pretty much just the doctor thing. maybe seshas was or wasn’t actually targeted by the doctor, but i don’t see why the mafia would chance it.


----------



## mewtini

or mafia burned a strongman?


----------



## mewtini

mewtini said:


> or mafia burned a strongman?


idk why this would be worthwhile now, but


----------



## Stryke

do i have any way to corroborate this claim? no! can you interpret it however you want? certainly! did i share it anyways because i wanted to contribute to the conversation to a greater degree than i have been in past games? well, yeah, but also its funny to have an actual reason to vote rnp instead of just doing it for the meme


----------



## kyeugh

Stryke said:


> i guess i have to do a bit of a roleclaim but w/e. essentially my role just tells me who visits me each night; not sure what the official name for that is but thats what it is. no night actions, i just get a list at the end of each night. anyway, rnp claims he roleblocked me n0, yet, at the end of that phase, it said no one had targeted me. so either theres some kind of 2 player roleblocking tomfoolery occurring here, or rnp is leaving something out


are you talking about this post where he said /s




__





						Tarot Mafia
					

i will have to actually read your posts  i feel sorry for you already  i just checked the signups and emmy is indeed in the game. @IndigoEmmy come play!




					forums.dragonflycave.com


----------



## Mr. Ultracool

Stryke said:


> anyway, rnp claims he roleblocked me n0, yet, at the end of that phase, it said no one had targeted me. so either theres some kind of 2 player roleblocking tomfoolery occurring here, or rnp is leaving something out


Well, that just adds up to something not being right, right now. For the moment, 

*Redneck Phoenix*


----------



## Stryke

kyeugh said:


> Stryke said:
> 
> 
> 
> i guess i have to do a bit of a roleclaim but w/e. essentially my role just tells me who visits me each night; not sure what the official name for that is but thats what it is. no night actions, i just get a list at the end of each night. anyway, rnp claims he roleblocked me n0, yet, at the end of that phase, it said no one had targeted me. so either theres some kind of 2 player roleblocking tomfoolery occurring here, or rnp is leaving something out
> 
> 
> 
> are you talking about this post where he said /s
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tarot Mafia
> 
> 
> i will have to actually read your posts  i feel sorry for you already  i just checked the signups and emmy is indeed in the game. @IndigoEmmy come play!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> forums.dragonflycave.com
Click to expand...

shit


----------



## kyeugh

gonna say stryke probably town for this tbh


----------



## Stryke




----------



## Keldeo

A self-watcher along with a watcher is interesting. lol setup spec, though, I can agree with kyeugh.

MF and kyeugh, I disagree with the assumption that because you as mafia wouldn't have killed Seshas, the mafia wouldn't have killed Seshas. I think a watcher would be a priority target, so sometimes mafia just takes a gamble like that, or they could have a way to bypass protection. I see little reason for any non-mafia killing role to target Seshas, either. However, I don't think this discussion is that relevant/productive unless you like, think this definitely implicates Mr. Ultracool or something?


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

hahahahahahahah


----------



## M&F

Keldeo said:


> MF and kyeugh, I disagree with the assumption that because you as mafia wouldn't have killed Seshas, the mafia wouldn't have killed Seshas. I think a watcher would be a priority target, so sometimes mafia just takes a gamble like that, or they could have a way to bypass protection. I see little reason for any non-mafia killing role to target Seshas, either. However, I don't think this discussion is that relevant/productive unless you like, think this definitely implicates Mr. Ultracool or something?


yeah, I'm not claiming this is Final Proof or anything of the sort; if it was, I'd be parking my vote there. that said, I do think this reasoning makes the assumption that Mr. Ultracool is raisin' hell a likely one, which is a red flag

I do agree that a strongkill is also a reasonable hypothesis here though, being that the target would've been a watcher


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

Stryke said:


> kyeugh said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stryke said:
> 
> 
> 
> i guess i have to do a bit of a roleclaim but w/e. essentially my role just tells me who visits me each night; not sure what the official name for that is but thats what it is. no night actions, i just get a list at the end of each night. anyway, rnp claims he roleblocked me n0, yet, at the end of that phase, it said no one had targeted me. so either theres some kind of 2 player roleblocking tomfoolery occurring here, or rnp is leaving something out
> 
> 
> 
> are you talking about this post where he said /s
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tarot Mafia
> 
> 
> i will have to actually read your posts  i feel sorry for you already  i just checked the signups and emmy is indeed in the game. @IndigoEmmy come play!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> forums.dragonflycave.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> shit
Click to expand...

this is the funniest shit i've seen in a while

yeah the joke was that for like the past 3 games i've had a roleblocking role


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

hence the /s, yunno.


----------



## Mr. Ultracool

Keldeo said:


> A self-watcher along with a watcher is interesting. lol setup spec, though, I can agree with kyeugh.


Maybe I'm missing something here, and that's disturbingly likely, but how do you know there are both a watcher and a self-watcher? I'm explicitly none of these, as I've said in my last post


----------



## Keldeo

Mr. Ultracool said:


> Keldeo said:
> 
> 
> 
> A self-watcher along with a watcher is interesting. lol setup spec, though, I can agree with kyeugh.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I'm missing something here, and that's disturbingly likely, but how do you know there are both a watcher and a self-watcher? I'm explicitly none of these, as I've said in my last post
Click to expand...

Seshas claimed watcher, and Stryke just claimed a passive self-watcher.


----------



## kyeugh

Keldeo said:


> MF and kyeugh, I disagree with the assumption that because you as mafia wouldn't have killed Seshas, the mafia wouldn't have killed Seshas. I think a watcher would be a priority target, so sometimes mafia just takes a gamble like that, or they could have a way to bypass protection.


 i really don’t think they would make that gamble. obviously i can’t know that for sure, but i just really don’t see it. the possibility of protection bypass is worth noting, but i don’t think it’s necessarily a _safer_ assumption than that they simply didn’t target seshas. both worlds are equally valid to me. i’m not really taking a hard stance here but it is definitely something i’m alert to.


Keldeo said:


> I see little reason for any non-mafia killing role to target Seshas, either. However, I don't think this discussion is that relevant/productive unless you like, think this definitely implicates Mr. Ultracool or something?


 agreed. them getting blown up by w!ultracool is the only thing that really makes sense here to me. like mf, i’m not sold enough on it to even place a vote, but i do think it’s a world worth considering. fwiw, i think koko getting shot looks kind of bad for uc too, so i’m not really feeling fantastic about him either way... but as you can say, i don’t think it’s anything urgent or immediately solvable.


----------



## Mr. Ultracool

Turns out, I'm really, really dense right now not to notice that. My Swords/Guns kill people at night, not in the day like on some other forums I frequent. That would explain the second kill, if the Mafia visited me yesterDay, sooo... Whoops?


----------



## mewtini

mewtini said:


> i did my readthrough as promised and will resurface with questions later, god willing


@M&F i'm curious what info you got out of the trebek lynch! you seemed to think his flip would be illuminating somehow iirc?


JackPK said:


> Wagonomics analysis on Trebek vs. Seshas (abbreviated T and S, parentheses are total number of votes on respective wagons at that moment, interesting votes bolded): +Mist S (0-1), -Mist S (0-0), +Seshas T (1-0), +*M&F T (2-0)*, +kyeugh S (2-1), +mewtini S (2-2), +Keldeo T (3-2), +me S (3-3), *+mewtini T (4-2)*, +Trebek S (4-3), *+kyeugh T (5-2)*, -me S (5-1), +Seshas S (4-2)
> 
> Basically to explain why I find those votes interesting: mewtini and kyeugh's votes, in combination, shifted the vote from a tie or near-tie to a Trebek blowout, so that makes me townread them


@JackPK what makes you think skylar's late vote is more likely to be town than, say, mafia gaining cred upon realizing that their scumbuddy was going down? i'm also curious to hear more about your progression on seshas/trebek during EoD!
@storm interested in any passing thoughts you may have!! even if shallow

to be continued probably


----------



## mewtini

btw as of right now i kinda think i'm leaning towards seshas being the mafia kill, if only because i want to believe town vig doesn't go for a claimed PR that a few people thought seemed likely to be true (keldeo/skylar bought it, i mentioned that i'd noticed a softclaim) and because i think mafia would conceivably be scared of seshas having a PR like that since she's a good player


----------



## kyeugh

Mr. Ultracool said:


> My Swords/Guns kill people at night, not in the day like on some other forums I frequent. That would explain the second kill, if the Mafia visited me yesterDay, sooo... Whoops?


do you know if there’s a difference between your swords and guns?


----------



## Mr. Ultracool

kyeugh said:


> do you know if there’s a difference between your swords and guns?


My Swords can be used at Night to kill people. What are Guns supposed to do, again? Iirc they kill during the Day, but I've been wrong about that one already, sooo


----------



## mewtini

M&F said:


> at least, now we know exactly why rari_teh bit it first


how does this connect to trebek for you?

i'll read/think harder about ultracool talk in a bit, i can't believe i've finally managed to catch up for the most part lol


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

kyeugh said:


> actually i am going to do one of these.
> *herbe*


oh huh i just saw this. why


----------



## mewtini

rnp what do you think of herbe rn?


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

herbe's in this game?


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

i thought kyeugh was meming


----------



## JackPK

Mr. Ultracool said:


> Turns out, I'm really, really dense right now not to notice that. My Swords/Guns kill people at night, not in the day like on some other forums I frequent. That would explain the second kill, if the Mafia visited me yesterDay, sooo... Whoops?


Townie visiting you and aiming wrong would also explain the second kill



mewtini said:


> JackPK said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wagonomics analysis on Trebek vs. Seshas (abbreviated T and S, parentheses are total number of votes on respective wagons at that moment, interesting votes bolded): +Mist S (0-1), -Mist S (0-0), +Seshas T (1-0), +*M&F T (2-0)*, +kyeugh S (2-1), +mewtini S (2-2), +Keldeo T (3-2), +me S (3-3), *+mewtini T (4-2)*, +Trebek S (4-3), *+kyeugh T (5-2)*, -me S (5-1), +Seshas S (4-2)
> 
> Basically to explain why I find those votes interesting: mewtini and kyeugh's votes, in combination, shifted the vote from a tie or near-tie to a Trebek blowout, so that makes me townread them
> 
> 
> 
> @JackPK what makes you think skylar's late vote is more likely to be town than, say, mafia gaining cred upon realizing that their scumbuddy was going down? i'm also curious to hear more about your progression on seshas/trebek during EoD!
Click to expand...

At the moment the vote was 4-3 and idk, I think that seems to close for mafia to abruptly give up on their scumbuddy. Maybe kyeugh would play differently than me but if I was mafia and was in that particular position, I definitely would not have jumped ship at that moment

clarify on what you're asking about "my progression" pls? I can go through my thought process in my vote in more detail if that's what you want, but I have not yet had the time/energy/stamina to go through and make any actual analysis or reads of other people yet


----------



## JackPK

*seems *too *close


----------



## Mr. Ultracool

JackPK said:


> Townie visiting you and aiming wrong would also explain the second kill


So, uhm, maybe that townie should reveal themselves to have shot? It wouldn't tell too much about their role, imo, but would perhaps prove useful in determining stuff about the setup?


----------



## mewtini

JackPK said:


> At the moment the vote was 4-3 and idk, I think that seems to close for mafia to abruptly give up on their scumbuddy. Maybe kyeugh would play differently than me but if I was mafia and was in that particular position, I definitely would not have jumped ship at that moment


her vote came 2 minutes before EoD, so i don't think it's really 'jumping ship' since trebek was 99% a goner. i see what you're saying though.
fwiw skylar is also kind of a busser but i don't even think this is bussing seeing as her vote didn't really make a difference (which is sort of why i'm reluctant to townread it)


JackPK said:


> clarify on what you're asking about "my progression" pls? _I can go through my thought process in my vote in more detail if that's what you want,_


that's all i'm wondering about!


----------



## storm

ksuhrgishg I was about to log into destiny 2 and check out the updated content when I got tagged. alas!!

you would only be able to use an item you received in the following days/nights, not on the same one, right? so if mafia did visit ultracool and used a... sword, it seems like, it would have to be from night 0 and not this last night? but that could account for the extra death

I am... not sure where I'm leaning on which faction killed who, it seems it could really go either(? if it was a vigilante and not mafia with an extra kill?) way, and the arguments I've seen so far seem like it's mostly up to playstyle and whether going after seshas would be a worthy risk or not


----------



## mewtini

Mr. Ultracool said:


> JackPK said:
> 
> 
> 
> Townie visiting you and aiming wrong would also explain the second kill
> 
> 
> 
> So, uhm, maybe that townie should reveal themselves to have shot? It wouldn't tell too much about their role, imo, but would perhaps prove useful in determining stuff about the setup?
Click to expand...

do you think they could use the item on the night they got it?


----------



## mewtini

oh i got ninja'd


----------



## kyeugh

JackPK said:


> Townie visiting you and aiming wrong would also explain the second kill


 you'd think they'd have spoken up by now though right


----------



## kyeugh

well.  ok, i will adjust that statement: if no one _does_ speak up by the time everyone's posted in the thread toDay, i will be pretty sure the second kill was not from a townie who'd picked up a gun/sword from uc, as claiming in that case would pretty much be a net positive (since it would explain the events of last night and corroborate uc's claim without necessarily revealing the claimant's role)


----------



## kyeugh

kyeugh said:


> well.  ok, i will adjust that statement: if no one _does_ speak up by the time everyone's posted in the thread toDay, i will be pretty sure the second kill was not from a townie who'd picked up a gun/sword from uc, as claiming in that case would pretty much be a net positive (since it would explain the events of last night and corroborate uc's claim without necessarily revealing the claimant's role)


 addendum: mafia could easily make such a claim, lmao.  so i won't be immediately townreading anyone who claims to have made the shot or w/e, but i think if _no one_ says anything it probably suggests that the shot did not come from one of uc's items (?)


----------



## JackPK

mewtini said:


> JackPK said:
> 
> 
> 
> At the moment the vote was 4-3 and idk, I think that seems to close for mafia to abruptly give up on their scumbuddy. Maybe kyeugh would play differently than me but if I was mafia and was in that particular position, I definitely would not have jumped ship at that moment
> 
> 
> 
> her vote came 2 minutes before EoD, so i don't think it's really 'jumping ship' since trebek was 99% a goner. i see what you're saying though.
> fwiw skylar is also kind of a busser but i don't even think this is bussing seeing as her vote didn't really make a difference (which is sort of why i'm reluctant to townread it)
> 
> 
> JackPK said:
> 
> 
> 
> clarify on what you're asking about "my progression" pls? _I can go through my thought process in my vote in more detail if that's what you want,_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> that's all i'm wondering about!
Click to expand...

ah makes sense! I wasn't looking back at timestamps, just looking at the raw list of votes

I slept in too late and spent way too much time playing catch-up trying to ISO all the wagons, and ultimately came out of that process with virtually no reads. so I was stressed at EOD trying to figure out where to put my vote, and (prior to Seshas' claim) I ended up putting it on Seshas bc their method of analysis confuses me, so I figured voting to remove that cause of confusion would be the least bad option out of a bunch of options that I had no reads on

then Seshas claimed to be watcher and to have targeted kyeugh n0 and gotten no result, so I hurriedly asked kyeugh if that raised any red flags, and when she said it didn't, I went "oh fuck" and unvoted (at that point things were so frantic that I had no idea what the vote count was, I just wanted to make sure my vote wasn't going to be the potential difference between a Seshas yeet and a tie)

then less than a minute later, as I was trying to figure out where else I wanted to put my vote, the day phase ended before I could decide where to place it.


----------



## Herbe

RedneckPhoenix said:


> herbe's in this game?


quelle surprise!

yeah i am and unfortunatly i slept through eod again the other day. Y'all know how fucking glad I am that Jack didn't get yeeted? literally i woke up and realised i missed it and i was like "oh god oh fuck i really hope we didnt yeet jack." 

fuck my hunches man. Anyway, jack can vibe for now, i trust him more after seeing him in more of the game


----------



## Herbe

I will mention that i am not particularly inclined to trust Monsieur Ultracool right now


----------



## Mr. Ultracool

Why not?


----------



## Herbe

your whole role situation feels just a bit too convoluted to be plausible imo


----------



## Herbe

did we figure out if anyone visited you last night or no?
also rip koko, although i will admit that i was hard sussing em tbh. solves that, i guess...


----------



## JackPK

starting a votecount so hopefully it'll be easier for me to keep it updated in the future under EOD stress

RNP (2) (Stryke #495, Ultracool #507)
Herbe (1) (kyeugh #462)
mewtini (1) (M&F #464)
Stryke (1) (RNP #469)


----------



## JackPK

Herbe said:


> did we figure out if anyone visited [Ultracool] last night or no?


nope, no one has claimed as such yet. I think a handful of folks still haven't posted yet toDay though?


----------



## Herbe

then honestly i'd occams razor it that koko was just vigged :/


----------



## Mr. Ultracool

Herbe said:


> your whole role situation feels just a bit too convoluted to be plausible imo


Yeah, I feel you ^^` Sadly, unless a Townie confesses to have visited me, we can't reliably confirm that I really am the Wheel of Fortune. The Doublevote is invisible, the Doc used on a Maf would only be helpful if a Vig claimed to have unsuccessfully shot someone, which isn't that great a move in addition to being pretty unlikely, the Gun isn't a very reliable way of checking if I'm telling the truth due to the vig and the Cop is undetectable unless a member of the Maf claims to have had investigated someone as Town/Outgroup Maf.


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

okay everyone what are your thoughts on stryke


----------



## Herbe

RedneckPhoenix said:


> okay everyone what are your thoughts on stryke


ik you're memeing but in the interest of continuing discussion (while im awake and here to discuss) i'll bite,,,, i havent seen enough of him to make a solid read but im not feeling distinctly positive about him. id be fine with a pressure vote at some point tbh

speaking on that, idk right now who's in my Possibly Scum list... i should probably take a moment to sort that out. it used to be jack and koko and now its maybe? rnp? (or potentially stryke) but i need to reread and pay closer attention to confidently put anyone there.


----------



## Herbe

oh i forgot to add ultracool too, although im not sure voting him would do the most good rn. maybe a tomorrow vote just to resolve it, cause that gives enough time imo for ppl to visit him and confirm his role or not


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

why thank you!

*herbe*


----------



## Herbe

-_-


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

stryke's blunder was funny enough that i don't feel like bullying him anymore (for the rest of this game) so now i'm gonna actually play


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

there is absolutely no reason to suspect stryke tbh. i've been looking at his posts for a while trying to find something on him, i know

in my immortal words, it was a bait


----------



## Herbe

ok


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

i have a vested interest in this whole matter. how dare you go against stryke. he is and always has been my buddy.


----------



## Stryke

Ok yeah *unvote*


----------



## Stryke

RedneckPhoenix said:


> okay everyone what are your thoughts on stryke


tbh: see him on the forums sometimes. we don't really talk. rate: 7/10


----------



## Herbe

hi stryke!


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

herbe why didn't you just vote for him if you were sus of him tbh. that in itself is sus. like you're investing in his future or something. it's a travesty


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

unless you're some sort of investigator?


----------



## Stryke

Herbe said:


> hi stryke!


Hi Herbe!


----------



## Herbe

RedneckPhoenix said:


> herbe why didn't you just vote for him if you were sus of him tbh. that in itself is sus. like you're investing in his future or something. it's a travesty


because i Care him, mr. sir


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

so you won't vote for him? may i count you as i investing in an agreement?


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

he's not livestock, you know. you can't just change your mind on whether you want him.


----------



## Herbe

RedneckPhoenix said:


> he's not livestock, you know. you can't just change your mind on whether you want him.


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

the concrete cow is an investment. the metaphorical cow is another living person. yeah why does that phrase exist.


----------



## Zero Moment

I come bearing snek


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

where are the arms


----------



## Herbe

it's two master hands from super smash bros

EXCELLENT snake, by the way


----------



## Zero Moment

Wasn't expecting double death this morning.  Let me count all the ways I can think of that a second death could have happened:

vig kill
jack of all trades kill
townie using a cool sword
scum/3rd using a cool sword
serial killer
fishing brother
unwise visit to your granny
cheating on your healthcare professional

we don't have any information beyond UC to go on rn, so I'll assume that this was the result of a sword kill. It's possible that an unwise townie used their sword last Night, but if nobody has piped up in the next ~12 hours I'll assume that instead the scum are hiding their involvement—or, if we're very unlucky, last night's Mafia target had used their sword on the other casualty.


----------



## kyeugh

Zero Moment said:


> or, if we're very unlucky, last night's Mafia target had used their sword on the other casualty.


i hadn’t thought of this but thinking about it now i don’t think it’s likely; if either seshas or koko already had a sword yesterDay i don’t think they would’ve treated uc the way they did


----------



## Zero Moment

That's a good point


----------



## Keldeo

ZM, it sounds like you believe Mr. Ultracool? Could you tell me a little more about why?

Skylar, could you re-walk me through your thought process on Trebek and Seshas during the last hour or so of yesterday?


----------



## kyeugh

Keldeo said:


> Skylar, could you re-walk me through your thought process on Trebek and Seshas during the last hour or so of yesterday?


 i can’t remember exactly what i was thinking at the time and looking back over it isn’t really helping, heh.  mostly i was feeling eh about seshas for the reasons i described to you at the time, but a few things pulled me off it.  this post from mewt in particular hit me kind of strongly and got me thinking, and seshas’s claim was enough for me to go mehhh and switch my vote.  i think i was kind of on the fence on trebek at the very end of the day and was anticipating him flipping town, fwiw—i was pretty pleasantly surprised when it turned out we‘d hit scum.


----------



## mewtini

Herbe said:


> Anyway, jack can vibe for now, i trust him more after seeing him in more of the game


what makes you like jack’s posting more now?


RedneckPhoenix said:


> okay everyone what are your thoughts on stryke


for now i think his blunder clears him in my eyes, tbh tbh


----------



## mewtini

i said id do more here tonight and then i played danganronpa for like 5 hours,


----------



## Herbe

mewtini said:


> what makes you like jack’s posting more now?


once i had a bigger sample size than his mechspec i liked him more. also the way he acted all day with my vote on him made me feel a lot better about him, that was a big part. tldr love u jack <3


----------



## JackPK

keeping this updated a couple times a day or so. going to bed now so here's my Last Update Of Tuesday

Herbe (2) (kyeugh #462, RNP #552)
mewtini (1) (M&F #464)
RNP (1) (Ultracool #507)

I only have like a couple of thoughts so far about what's gone on this evening: I kinda feel like RNP/Stryke's whole... *gestures at them* is not game-relevant and I'm inclined to just skip past it and not even try to make any reads. when the two of them interact with each other, they're just Them regardless of whether they are in or out of a game.

meanwhile I'm vaguely vibing with the low-key suspicion of Ultracool, pending whether or not anyone claims to have visited him and gotten an item, once everyone has talked


----------



## M&F

I feel like it's frankly a hard sell that kokorico was vigged/A Gunned by a town player. sure, aspersions were cast on em throughout the Day, but I feel like EoD and Trebek's flip makes it very difficult to sustain those suspicions for anyone who was paying attention. that said, a thought occours to me: I was about to say the same of Seshas, but... she did, for whatever undiscernible reason, switch the vote from Trebek to herself in the last moments of the day; while I feel like that reads most intuitively as either an incomprehensible joke or the consequence of believing Trebek's roleclaim and assuming his role was more useful (although that would be... also incomprehensible), I suppose it's not necessarily a surprise if someone out there took that for an attempt at sneaky jesterplay and delivered the adequate response



mewtini said:


> M&F said:
> 
> 
> 
> at least, now we know exactly why rari_teh bit it first
> 
> 
> 
> how does this connect to trebek for you?
Click to expand...

other than that his usertitle is, best as I understand, a direct expression of disbelief at being outplayed by rari_teh at cats mafia? although for all I know that's an inside joke I'm completely not privy to



kyeugh said:


> i hadn’t thought of this but thinking about it now i don’t think it’s likely; if either seshas or koko already had a sword yesterDay i don’t think they would’ve treated uc the way they did


come to think of it, kokorico's table of reactions to mr. ultracool (#262) might come in really handy now, huh?
I remember giving it a new glance at nighttime, but all I really extracted was that trebek's stance seems amusingly convenient in retrospect. discourage lynching mr. ultracool, but also try to steer town away from acquiring A Gun for themselves. that does, at least, mean that trebek probably did believe in mr. ultracool's claim, and in the possibility of exploiting it; which would thus exclude the scenario where mr. ultracool is in-group mafia completely fabricating the claim. but eh, my top suspicion of him is of being third-party scum, anyway



mewtini said:


> @M&F i'm curious what info you got out of the trebek lynch! you seemed to think his flip would be illuminating somehow iirc?


it was a bit of a hasty decision, but as far as I was seeing at that point in the thread, it seemed like you were often defending him and also like kokorico was out for his blood, so I figured one of you two would come out of it looking worse depending on what he flipped. ... it sure isn't fun that the player I'd have potentially cleared by this process was subsequently killed, although that's just an additional reason why eir death sucks. (the original reason is still only for Later)

I suppose this is a good segue to explain to the class why I'm parked on you as we speak. (incidentally, that's another sentence that would sound fantastic out of context). I feel like, throughout D1, you were making these multiple noncommittal micropushes, like you were reading a lot of people as schrödinger's alignment, and only properly dove into any of them if someone else agreed with you. sure, that's possible to chalk up to insecurity, but it's at least as easy to chalk up to fishing for wagon. (and I mean, at some point back there all of us were indeed frantic for an even halfway good idea for a lynch, but I specifically allude to some practice of gauging one's apparent suspicion of someone to the likelihood that they will be lynched)

additionally, there were some interactions between you, kyeugh, and trebek which smacked to me distinctively of the wolfslash. lots of building up each other's suspicions of seshas and kokorico, and the occasional defense of trebek... now, one might argue that you changing your read on trebek was the point that really pivoted the lynch against him, but I think it's also a highly plausible bit of bussing. one, because the wagon on him might have seemed worse than it was at the time you switched, because keeping the votes straight in that EoD was a nightmare (and indeed, kyeugh took a count herself at one point); and two, because trebek openly waffling about whether to vote in self-defense could have been the point where his scumbuddies go "welp, he's not surviving that move, best I make swift time on taking the credit for burying him over it".

now, all of that said, there _are_ a couple things that make me a little more hesitant about these suspicions. the first:


kyeugh said:


> if there was more than one minute left i might switch to kokorico.


bussing your scumbuddy and proceeding to pretend it was a borderline accident would be a bold move to say the least;

and also, my faith in my ability to toneread is very limited, but mewtini does sound remarkably different toDay, more genuinely solvy. and less stressed! which, yeah, there are external reasons why that changed, but it also serves to ease my suspicions that the previous stress might also have been because, usually, being scum is pretty stressful


----------



## Vipera Magnifica

Zero Moment said:


> I come bearing snek


If you are trying to curry my favor

It's working


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

JackPK said:


> I only have like a couple of thoughts so far about what's gone on this evening: I kinda feel like RNP/Stryke's whole... *gestures at them* is not game-relevant and I'm inclined to just skip past it and not even try to make any reads. when the two of them interact with each other, they're just Them regardless of whether they are in or out of a game.


talkin shit?


----------



## Novae

here's an opinion

*IndigoEmmy* is not making the effort to post that she usually makes as town and I think there's enough lack of investment to not be able to chalk it up to something game-related


----------



## mewtini

M&F said:


> and also, my faith in my ability to toneread is very limited, but mewtini does sound remarkably different toDay, more genuinely solvy. and less stressed! which, yeah, there are external reasons why that changed, but it also serves to ease my suspicions that the previous stress might also have been because, usually, being scum is pretty stressful


tbqh my tone difference/improvement? toDay is due to irl stuff/having had time to actually read through, and not really AI :'D


----------



## mewtini

(also i'm not ignoring the rest of your post, i just don't really like talking about reads on myself, lol)


Mist1422 said:


> *IndigoEmmy* is not making the effort to post that she usually makes as town and I think there's enough lack of investment to not be able to chalk it up to something game-related


yeah, i understand this ... but also think she has some irl stuff going on that makes me not want to push her yet


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

that's what someone whose tone is ai would say


----------



## mewtini

RedneckPhoenix said:


> that's what someone whose tone is ai would say


i'm not really sure what you mean tbh. i'm saying that my sounding more relaxed or townier is kind of like ... maybe not that reliable because of Circumstances


----------



## mewtini

the stress d1 was largely that i had like 3 cumulative hours to try to process everything, as opposed to how i normally spend hours combing the thread :(


----------



## Novae

mewtini said:


> (also i'm not ignoring the rest of your post, i just don't really like talking about reads on myself, lol)
> 
> 
> Mist1422 said:
> 
> 
> 
> *IndigoEmmy* is not making the effort to post that she usually makes as town and I think there's enough lack of investment to not be able to chalk it up to something game-related
> 
> 
> 
> yeah, i understand this ... but also think she has some irl stuff going on that makes me not want to push her yet
Click to expand...

that's fair I guess

I just wanna see if I can poke her into doing a little bit more though it may be because of what happened last time we left an afk alone


----------



## M&F

mewtini said:


> M&F said:
> 
> 
> 
> and also, my faith in my ability to toneread is very limited, but mewtini does sound remarkably different toDay, more genuinely solvy. and less stressed! which, yeah, there are external reasons why that changed, but it also serves to ease my suspicions that the previous stress might also have been because, usually, being scum is pretty stressful
> 
> 
> 
> tbqh my tone difference/improvement? toDay is due to irl stuff/having had time to actually read through, and not really AI :'D
Click to expand...

exactly! non-alignment-indicative is an improvement over potentially scummy-

and I guess that about reads on oneself is fair, and composing a longform read in second person was perhaps not the best writing decision I've made today. mind if I press you on a read on kyeugh, though?


----------



## kyeugh

*fine*

mewtini
mf
stryke
jack
keldeo
me!!! :)
butterfree (this one is extremely tenuous)
*meh*

emmy
herbe
mist
storm
uc
rnp
zm
that meh list is much longer than i would like tbh.  it was a bit narrower in my head which is why i landed on herbe.  not really sure of a _better_ place to vote though, hm. i keep going back and forth on storm.


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

hm.

yunno, my plan isn't working as... planned.


herbe, i'm lifting the rule that says you can't discuss it.


----------



## kyeugh

M&F said:


> come to think of it, kokorico's table of reactions to mr. ultracool (#262) might come in really handy now, huh?
> I remember giving it a new glance at nighttime, but all I really extracted was that trebek's stance seems amusingly convenient in retrospect. discourage lynching mr. ultracool, but also try to steer town away from acquiring A Gun for themselves. that does, at least, mean that trebek probably did believe in mr. ultracool's claim, and in the possibility of exploiting it; which would thus exclude the scenario where mr. ultracool is in-group mafia completely fabricating the claim. but eh, my top suspicion of him is of being third-party scum, anyway


 hm, yeah...  i think this is a good look for mr. ultracool honestly.  i'm not closed to him being scum, but if he is i think his role is probably made up.  conversely if he's not scum i think his role is likely to be real?  i'm not super buying an alternate world here where his role is real but he's third party and has some kind of weird win condition.  not impossible but i don't really see any reason to believe that in particular.  so given the way trebek treated him, i think i'm actually feeling better about him than not for now.  i somewhat doubt their dynamic was distancing.


----------



## M&F

I feel like I might be coming across like I'm unwilling to genuinely push on mewtini despite the entire scumread, but I guess what it comes down to is that I'm unwilling to be mean to be mewtini when I'm not roasting her-

I'm just fortunate I don't have a read on herbe yet


----------



## Herbe

RedneckPhoenix said:


> herbe, i'm lifting the rule that says you can't discuss it.


bullshit, you can do that fr?


----------



## Herbe

bait part 2 electric boogaloo


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

my ability allows me to create a set of rules for you. von made sure that i knew that i could rescind the rules when i want.

the other ones are still in effect, tho


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

i.e. you still have to make due on yr other obligation


----------



## Herbe

thats honestly so cool a role. so i'm still doing the thing, but i can now discuss why i'm doing the thing freely?


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

yeah, and i guess by extension the "free will" thing


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

would be bad if it accidentally triggered bc of that. i'm gonna message von


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

tl;dr I placed a Tower Bomb on herbe which detonates if he breaks the rules.


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

it's honestly more suited to the mafia faction i'm not sure why i got it


----------



## M&F

if that's true I'm astonished you didn't target stryke with that first


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

he deserves death only by vote


----------



## Herbe

that's the bit i was concerned about. But I think we're on the same page about it anyway

anyway yeah this man literally strapped a bomb to me and was gonna (will) fry my chicken if i don't vote *Stryke *today
it was anonymous, but i knew instantly it was rnp lmao. i thought it was a mafia role too, i was gonna expose you next Day if i lived as totally being the one who set me up w the bomb and try to push a lynch on you... but i guess we're cool... for now?


----------



## Herbe

M&F said:


> if that's true I'm astonished you didn't target stryke with that first


oh ho ho ho ho, no ma'am, rnp is always finding novel ways to fuck with his good ole pal stryke


----------



## Herbe

Herbe said:


> that's the bit i was concerned about.


ninjad, i was talking abt the free will bit - 

yeah literally stryke has been a Pure Boy this game i was having a HELLA hard time figuring out how i would justify a vote on him :((


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

ah. ahahaha.

herbe has violated a regulation of the Tower Bomb by mentioning it.


Herbe will now explode.

Destruction brings creation.


----------



## storm

oh dang


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

None of the rules have been rescinded, because I didn't write them.

When Von next logs on, your death will be cemented.

And so will the death of a dear friend.


----------



## Herbe

RedneckPhoenix said:


> ah. ahahaha.
> 
> herbe has violated a regulation of the Tower Bomb by mentioning it.
> 
> 
> Herbe will now explode.
> 
> Destruction brings creation.


when did you go from being a scumreadable townie to 4d chess supervillain dude


----------



## Herbe

Fucking mastermind. Shit. Alright, at least this gives me excuse to stop procrastinating finally getting ACNH up and running


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

since i'm not town tbh


----------



## Herbe

rnp what level of meme are we on. nothing? no meme? all serious bsness?


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

i'm also not mafia tho so like shrug


----------



## Herbe




----------



## RedneckPhoenix

Herbe said:


> rnp what level of meme are we on. nothing? no meme? all serious bsness?


von was last seen on telegram at 8:45 :V


----------



## Herbe

then how the fuck did you find out abt the bomb that i have already mentioned


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

connect the dots


----------



## Herbe

-_-

im screaming.

fine. y'all im vig, i shot koko bc i was sus, whatever


----------



## Herbe

shoulda kept my damn mouth shut and waited for vm to respond to my message


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

nah, i got you the moment you initially called  bullshit. that implied that you were not acting out of free will, did it not?


----------



## M&F

well, that sure is a percussive way for us to get clarification on the matter of the multiple deaths

godspeed, herb


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

when i got my role i admittedly sorta bombarded von with asking about technicalities so i could utilize this to my maximum advantage


----------



## Herbe

I think I have a case that i was just calling bullshit on you because most of what you do is bullshit


----------



## Herbe

see y'all on the deserted island getaway tour


----------



## kyeugh

lol

*redneckphoenix* tbh?


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

oh, yeah, and while i'm at it?

*explode kyeugh*


----------



## kyeugh

unfun honestly


----------



## Herbe

Herbe said:
			
		

> hey vm what happens if i vote stryke and unvote before eod. do i still explody





			
				Vipera Magnifica said:
			
		

> you go kaboom





			
				Herbe said:
			
		

> ugh, i should have left to lay in moss while i still had the chance


i really just want to strongly reiterate that last sentence


----------



## Herbe

@mewtini get in here i wanna bitch abt this with you before i die


----------



## M&F

agreed; even if he's fully town, *RedneckPhoenix* is shaping up to be a known hazard,


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

sorry i'm already dead


----------



## storm

what. the fuck :///


----------



## Stryke

Goddamn rnp I underestimated the lengths you'd go to to get my goat. I don't know if I can ever outdo this


----------



## M&F

RedneckPhoenix said:


> sorry i'm already dead


die again


----------



## kyeugh

is it bad form for me to continue talking while i’m pending explosion


----------



## Stryke

*insert Yoshikage Kira reference here*


----------



## Herbe

join the club q


----------



## Herbe

terrorist with a spare vest, i must assume?


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

terrorist with a super special secret one shot power


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

the tower card represents unforeseen misery and that's what i always bring to mafia games tbh


----------



## M&F

I'm not even counting on all of his day commands being real until VM processes them


----------



## M&F

RedneckPhoenix said:


> the tower card represents unforeseen misery and that's what i always bring to mafia games tbh


I was going to say; it's rude to speculate on whether the roles were actually randed or not, but I feel like VM must have done this on purpose


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

ok everyone who no longer has a face should probably stop talking rn tbh


----------



## kyeugh

lol


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

(but just one more thing von told me the vest goes inactive when i die which is why i waited till herbe got antsy to bomb)


----------



## mewtini

what the fuck


----------



## Herbe

i'm not gonna take orders from the man who set me up so deviously


----------



## Herbe

ohhh so you really wanted to bomb today so you called me out on the vest so you could kill 2 friends in one go


----------



## mewtini

oh wait is this not a joke omfg
there goes my skylar SR??


----------



## mewtini

i suppose i should read back,


----------



## Herbe

someone get a gun from monsieur ultracool and vig for me


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

mafia sorta gets boring past d2 i decided just to dip now


----------



## Herbe

RedneckPhoenix said:


> mafia sorta gets boring past d2 i decided just to dip now


only if you don't survive till endgame, thanks for cursing me to that fate btw


----------



## M&F

mewtini said:


> oh wait is this not a joke omfg
> there goes my skylar SR??


it is a joke! but like, a "what do you get when you mix a mentally ill loner with a society that treats him like trash" type of joke


----------



## mewtini

don’t have time to backtrack yet but, wait, didn’t rnp say he was basically 3p before? rip ಠ_ಠ


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

i don't actually know who any mafia are i hope i didn't just kill one


----------



## kyeugh

M&F said:


> mewtini said:
> 
> 
> 
> oh wait is this not a joke omfg
> there goes my skylar SR??
> 
> 
> 
> it is a joke! but like, a "what do you get when you mix a mentally ill loner with a society that treats him like trash" type of joke
Click to expand...

 but this isn't what i deserve!


----------



## Herbe

oh i was judgement btw


----------



## kyeugh




----------



## M&F

judge not lest ye be judged I guess


----------



## Novae

so, non-zero chance we just straight up lost


----------



## Herbe

M&F said:


> judge not lest ye be judged I guess


i suppose it was nominative determinism in my case


----------



## mewtini

Herbe said:


> @mewtini get in here i wanna bitch abt this with you before i die


<3


----------



## Herbe

Trebek stop laughing at my misery from beyond the grave challenge


----------



## Novae

praying for our third-party saviors tbh

(if herbe/kyeugh/koko/seshas were all town we are now at 6v5 assuming my math is correct, third parties and such not factored in)


----------



## M&F

Mist1422 said:


> so, non-zero chance we just straight up lost


that we caught Trebek before all of this started means that chances are good we're still above the water, but if we do get three dead innocents out of this, it's still going to suck roe

not in the least because it makes the situation I was mad about wrt kokorico even worse. so now, I'm going to not say what it is even harder, to spite RNP-


----------



## Herbe

jk its fine im only bullying u bc you randed maf trebek


----------



## kyeugh

if i found a game boring i would simply not play it


----------



## storm

this is. a lot!!!


----------



## Herbe

storm said:


> this is. a lot!!!


yea innit??


----------



## Novae

anyway

anyone have an setup questions they wanna relay to the mod?


----------



## Herbe

Hey RNP why did you give the bomb vest to me of all ppl


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

no clue


----------



## Herbe

ok cool pleasure doin business with you


----------



## M&F

Mist1422 said:


> anyway
> 
> anyone have an setup questions they wanna relay to the mod?


_finally_ I got something right

are you allowed to ask about other people's arcanas?


----------



## Novae

M&F said:


> Mist1422 said:
> 
> 
> 
> anyway
> 
> anyone have an setup questions they wanna relay to the mod?
> 
> 
> 
> _finally_ I got something right
> 
> are you allowed to ask about other people's arcanas?
Click to expand...

unfortunately not

I tried last night and got told "lolno" so I just asked how many town were left (10 at the start of last night)


----------



## JackPK

vote update

RNP (3) (Ultracool #507, kyeugh #629, M&F #634) 
Herbe (1) (RNP #552)
IndigoEmmy (1) (Mist #584)
Stryke (1) (Herbe #607)

also: holy fuck what just happened, @Vipera Magnifica pls come resolve

just in case this isn't all real, parking my vote on *RedneckPhoenix*


----------



## JackPK

which I guess makes the votes 

RNP (4) (Ultracool #507, kyeugh #629, M&F #634, Jack #683)
Herbe (1) (RNP #552)
IndigoEmmy (1) (Mist #584)
Stryke (1) (Herbe #607) 

if the RNP-Herbe-kyeugh debacle is actually completely real and they all explode, the only remaining valid vote after that would be the one on Emmy


----------



## Keldeo

Excuse me?


----------



## JackPK

Mist1422 said:


> M&F said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mist1422 said:
> 
> 
> 
> anyway
> 
> anyone have an setup questions they wanna relay to the mod?
> 
> 
> 
> _finally_ I got something right
> 
> are you allowed to ask about other people's arcanas?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> unfortunately not
> 
> I tried last night and got told "lolno" so I just asked how many town were left (10 at the start of last night)
Click to expand...

woooooow 16 players at the start of last night and only 10 town means 6 {mafia + 3p}... and adding in Trebek and rari, that means we started the game with 11 town 7 {mafia + 3p} which frankly seems insanely slanted against town

in a worst-case scenario, if the RNP bombs all go off and RNP is the only non-town casualty of them, that leaves us at 6 town 6 {mafia + 3p} which is.... very bad

assuming we survive to another day, Mist, maybe you could ask something like "what is mafia's wincon" so we know whether it's parity or outnumbering, or like, "how many mafia are left that count toward mafia's wincon" or something, idk


----------



## Vipera Magnifica

In the middle of the Divine Tribunal, there was a sudden explosion.

*Herbe is dead. He was not mafia.*

Among the ensuing screams, a voice could be heard laughing. That laughter was cut short by another explosion.

*RedneckPhoenix is dead. He was mafia.
Skylar is dead. She was not mafia.*


----------



## JackPK

fuck


----------



## Keldeo

I assume yes because you clarified, but @Mist1422, are you sure that was at the start and not the end of last night? An 11:7 ratio to start with seems pretty rough. If it was at the end it’d have been 13:5 at start, which I guess is also kind of low if there’s an out group/3p, but. Mrgle.


----------



## mewtini

> not a joke
god damn it


----------



## Keldeo

I think the mafia win con is “public” info insofar as you can ask VM about it anytime.


----------



## mewtini

tofu’s grin react on the flip post, omfg


----------



## Vipera Magnifica

Vipera Magnifica said:


> *Skylar is dead. She was not mafia.*


I meant kyeugh but whatever.



Spoiler: Game Summary



*N0
rari_teh* was killed. She was *not mafia*.

*D1
Trebek* was killed. He was *mafia*.

*N1
Seshas *was killed. They were *not mafia*.
*kokorico *was killed. E was *not mafia*.

*D2
Herbe *was killed. He was *not mafia*.
*RedneckPhoenix *was killed. He was *mafia*.
*kyeugh* was killed. She was *not mafia*.



Imagine thinking I could go play Battle for Bikini Bottom for a few hours.


----------



## Novae

Keldeo said:


> I assume yes because you clarified, but @Mist1422, are you sure that was at the start and not the end of last night? An 11:7 ratio to start with seems pretty rough. If it was at the end it’d have been 13:5 at start, which I guess is also kind of low if there’s an out group/3p, but. Mrgle.


entirely sure it was at start

I do think this means there's at least one separate 3p that doesn't win with mafia alive because Balance


----------



## storm

holy shit tbh


----------



## Keldeo

VM please play Battle for Bikini Bottom as much as you would like!


Mist1422 said:


> I do think this means there's at least one separate 3p that doesn't win with mafia alive because Balance


Then I’d be so bold as to say that if you are this third party you should claim now. If Mist is to be believed, mafia are so far in the lead that your win condition is effectively now ours.

If no claim happens before EOD I would assume that either RNP was outgroup or the living 3p is actively hostile to town as well as mafia, such as alien.


----------



## Vipera Magnifica

just so everyone knows, in this game anyone with a mafia-aligned win condition will be flipping as "mafia", while everyone else will be flipping as "not mafia"


----------



## Keldeo

I guess the correct assumption is probably that RNP is outgroup and it was 11:6:1, though.


----------



## Keldeo

So if this is 6:5 LYLO, and I think I believe Mist, I kind of want to do a massclaim. Thoughts?

Would like other people to weigh in before any claims happen, I feel kind of lost right now.


----------



## Novae

RNP was outgroup by his own admission plus he wouldn't flip as scum if 3p

I am not a third party


----------



## JackPK

Keldeo said:


> So if this is 6:5 LYLO, and I think I believe Mist, I kind of want to do a massclaim. Thoughts?
> 
> Would like other people to weigh in before any claims happen, I feel kind of lost right now.


I don't feel experienced enough to be able to give wise input, but for what it's worth, I'd be down for a massclaim if it happened.

What procedure would you want to do for a massclaim? My only experience is with old!tcodf meta where it was just scattershot, helter-skelter whoever happens to come online claims in whatever order they happen to decide to, but I have also read some MafiaUniverse/MafiaScum meta analysis articles that suggest doing massclaims in a concerted, systematic way (e.g. each person who claims picks the next person whom they want to claim, each person claims in signup list order, something like that)


----------



## Keldeo

Hmm I think helter-skelter might be the only doable option, since we only have about 24 hours left, but with the people who are consensus townreads going last? For me right now, those townreads would be Mist’s flavor claim*, MF, and mewtini. I also haven’t yet reread Trebek and feel I could come out of that with some higher-confidence TRs


----------



## Keldeo

Oh I forgot Stryke also claimed, I guess he can also hold his flavor claim? idk. haha.


----------



## Novae

Why do flavor claims matter, out of curiosity?


----------



## mewtini

Mist1422 said:


> Why do flavor claims matter, out of curiosity?


counterclaim potential?


----------



## Keldeo

Yeah, counterclaims. There’s like a 90+% chance it won’t matter at all, but why not.


----------



## JackPK

Mist1422 said:


> Why do flavor claims matter, out of curiosity?


depends on whether scum are flavored with something that would be suspicious, tbh. if they are, they would want to fakeclaim a different flavor, so we could hopefully catch them in a lie if two people try to claim the same flavor


----------



## JackPK

oh ninja'd. I must wait at least 6 seconds


----------



## Vipera Magnifica

Vote Totals:
*IndigoEmmy* (1) (Mist1422)



Spoiler: Vote History



kyeugh votes Herbe (#462)
M&F votes mewtini (#464)
RedneckPhoenix votes Stryke (#469)
Stryke votes RedneckPhoenix (#495)
Mr. Ultracool votes RedneckPhoenix (#507)
RedneckPhoenix votes for Herbe (#552)
Stryke unvotes (#558)
*Mist1422 votes IndigoEmmy (#584)*
Herbe votes Stryke (#607)
kyeugh votes RedneckPhoenix (#629)
M&F votes RedneckPhoenix (#634)
JackPK votes RedneckPhoenix (#683)


----------



## Mr. Ultracool

Holy heck, so all of that bomb stuff was real after all? After loosing two townies, I'm not sure if we should risk misslynching another one, so...

Voting to *Abstain*


----------



## M&F

I was just thinking it's possibly a good time for a massclaim, myself! shall we?

flavor, too. it's the sort of thing where it's better than not, least of all because RNP's sheer kill power back there makes me skeptical that we'd also have a name killer to run afoul of. plus... I do have one line of reasoning to pursue through arcanas, although I'd rather not divulge it until folks have spontaneously offered theirs up

(anyway, I'm not going first on the massclaim; most of y'all are townreading me. also, I'm townreading Keldeo now, so I'd appreciate it if someone other than him kicked it off. we're running out of time, though... hmmmm)

hmmmmm... thinking about whether to park on mr. ultracool in the meantime. on the one hand, the large amount of remaining scum makes me think it's better to act on small impulses than not; on the other hand, the second death from last night is now proven not to have been caused by him, which is another credence-lending thing


----------



## M&F

Vipera Magnifica said:


> Imagine thinking I could go play Battle for Bikini Bottom for a few hours.


anyway, where's the care react when you need it,


----------



## M&F

hmmm, here's another thought, though: we have a pretty significant number of players who are just lurking, don't we? this is terribly damaging for any prospects of massclaiming, and furthermore, it's painfully likely that some of these lurkers are the scum we're looking for, but we have no means of distinguishing innocent and guilty lurkers, so unless they're like, all guilty, it's obligatorily a shot in the dark. mmmmmph.

I'm going to kill RNP for the third time for taking out two active players tbh


----------



## Novae

just don't lurk

ez


----------



## JackPK

lurkers right now are uh... @IndigoEmmy @storm @Butterfree @Zero Moment off the top of my head? should we ask them to massclaim first and then the more active folks after that?


----------



## M&F

those, plus, Stryke just hasn't given us anything other than RNP horseplay

I'd appreciate it if we could get those five claiming first, but, well, they _are_ lurking, some of them even due to external factors, which makes this difficult to pull off in time


----------



## M&F

I suppose I should @Stryke


----------



## Stryke

Already claimed


----------



## Keldeo

Jack, what do you think is the towniest thing you've done so far? Put another way, why should I be townreading you?


----------



## storm

I wasn't sure when claiming would be useful but uhhh rnp really escalated things so I'm fine with doing so now! I don't think I'll be a lot of help tho...

my arcana is the magician and I can target one person to find out their card each night, but not what role or abilities it confers


----------



## M&F

thanks, storm!

I suppose... you should keep your results, if you have any, under the hat for now. this way, we can force folks to claim arcanas honestly, on pain of potentially running afoul of what you have, yeah?


----------



## JackPK

Keldeo said:


> Jack, what do you think is the towniest thing you've done so far? Put another way, why should I be townreading you?


I've been trying to read as well as I can, and now that the massclaim suggestion is starting to put us into the mechanical territory I feel more comfortable in, I think, or hope, I'm starting to strategize well too. If you're asking about a specific post, I think my wagonomics in #474 is probably the most _useful_ thing I've done for town, but the "towniest" (i.e. least likely to be fakeable if I were mafia) would be my D1 reads in #172 (it occurs to me I should reread the whole thread and make a new reads post now that so much has changed, but it is late and I have D&D soon... I will try to do that later tonight, after D&D).


----------



## Keldeo

Trebek said:


> ngl idk why but i just had a great mental image of a terrorist going
> 
> “hey imma softclaim”
> “bomb”


----------



## Keldeo

Trebek posted mostly about people who are now dead. rip.



Spoiler






Trebek said:


> Keldeo said:
> 
> 
> 
> I guess I vaguely like Seshas being the first to actually try to read Mist and trying to force a read on storm?
> 
> 
> 
> yeah, im still not sure about how i feel about what was said, but i like that something was said in the first place
Click to expand...




Trebek said:


> Seshas said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kokorico said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seshas said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to say that Herbe looks a bit worse for this
> 
> 
> 
> I don't follow, can you explain why?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The I think it's untrustworthy but I trust it anyways bit sounds like someone who saw an outgroup/3p signal and is defending and hedging at the same time
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> i guess this makes sense? idk to me it just felt like Herbe was contrasting the general mentality of that type of post with how he read this particular one, which doesn't seem too hedgey to me
Click to expand...




Here's him townreading Herbe and Seshas early on. I note this because we now know both of them to be town. I'm kind of split about what all this means - I think it's possible that this means he was leaning on TMI to generate early content (which could point to Jack being town). Obviously he pushed on town kokorico later in the day as well. 



Spoiler






Trebek said:


> im also between town and third party, but my gut wants to say that it seems just a little too obvious for mist to be outgroup? like, would an outgroup mafia really go about it in that way if our immediate response would be to ask if they are outgroup?





Trebek said:


> im fine with believing mist about the existence of a third party, but i have a feeling that mist's 35 is just a meme. not going to speculate further about this bc i dont want to get stabbed / i think that this speculation will be more useful when more mechanics are revealed





Posts about Mist for completion. Not really sure what to make of these, but I'm pretty much townreading Mist anyway.



Spoiler






Trebek said:


> as far as ultracool goes, i'm not sure how i feel. on the one hand, if hes telling the truth and we can get bonuses from visiting him, thats amazing and i applaud/support him coming forth with it D1. on the other hand, part of me is wondering if its too good to be true? like, what happens if mafia visit him - do they get upgrades as well? i guess part of me is just paranoid about something crazy like a w!paranoid gun owner? although to be fair i dont think that would line up with a Wheel of Fortune flavorclaim. i guess at the end of the day im townleanling uc, and glad that hes posting, but idk if i trust it enough to support a mass visitation to him N1, if that makes sense? brain confused
> (jack's 150 i think sums up how i feel about this: its a ballsy claim regardless of wether its a v!wheel of fortune or a w!wheel of fotune, wether or not thats a good thing is yet to be decided)





Trebek said:


> Mr. Ultracool said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trebek said:
> 
> 
> 
> like, what happens if mafia visit him - do they get upgrades as well?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. Unfortunately, they do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> interesting :(
Click to expand...




I want to townread Mr. Ultracool for Trebek's posting about him, despite a red flag of a push on RNP today from him. I feel like townreading Mr. Ultracool but also assuredly discouraging people from visiting him is like, exactly the opposite of what a partner to mafia bomb Mr. Ultracool would want to put out in the thread. I also think Mr. Ultracool is less likely to be a role like that given the existence of a terrorist, which is more scum killing power. 

It's like possible that he's just a mafia goon or something and decided to claim randomly but like, there's no real agenda to that. idk.



Spoiler






Trebek said:


> mewtini said:
> 
> 
> 
> ok it's time for mewtini to catch up and obnoxiously post while she does it <3 i am so used to like ... following the thread like a hawk because i've had nothing better to do in quarantine. imagine having to "catch" "up"
> 
> anyway brb
> 
> 
> 
> can’t wait to read ur catch up posts and be like “wow this makes so much sense how come i didn’t see it when i read it” to everything
Click to expand...




Trebek said:


> Seshas said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kokorico said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kyeugh said:
> 
> 
> 
> also i’m not sure if i like the koko wagon yet but i believe trebek believes it and it’s improving my view of him
> 
> 
> 
> I kind of feel the same way! Like, obviously I know he's wrong, but if he were a wolf I would think there would be better/"easier" targets for a mislynch.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I guess
> the reason I see it as potentially wolfy is because he's piggybacking off of mewtini's read?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> this is admittedly something that i still need to work on w.r.t. my Mafia play: a lot of times i will read people's readposts and go "oh ok this makes sense how come i didnt think of this myself" which then results in piggybacking
> 
> i also think my initial post might not have put enough emphasis on my gut reaction to koko's vote on herbe and *leaned too much on mewt's read bc that was a concrete thing i could cite*
Click to expand...




Trebek said:


> mewtini said:
> 
> 
> 
> man i was kind of meh about trebek's changing meta and figured it was NAI but the recent posting is throwing me off a lot
> 
> 
> 
> in which direction?
Click to expand...




Here are some quotes where he responds to or talks about mewtini. Notably the last quote is 10 minutes to EOD. I might be reading a bit too much into this, but I feel like this isn't how he would talk about a mafia partner. I can put more effort into articulating this if others disagree. I did think mewtini's thoughts on him were like really cogent about his mindset, which I was worried was TMI, but I'm gonna just say it was a cogent case.



Trebek said:


> idk how i feel about people side-eyeing jack's mechspec: this may just be a personal preference / a misinformed gut reaction to how people talk in thread, but i always get sorta weirded out when someone makes mechspec posts and then other people side-eye them over people who aren't actually contributing? this may just be bias on my part bc people who dont post also aren't typically the center of discussion, but its just something ive noticed. just feels weird to see someone getting side-eyed for what very well could be a genuine desire to contribute to thread, even if the only way they can do so is mechspec
> (this is also probably just personal bias bc i feel much more comfortable making mechspec posts than vibespec posts/have a tendency to want to TR people just for contributing, so i probably just need to get over myself tbh)
> (obviously, if someone only mechspecs for the entire game, thats a different story, but it seems like a weird thing to jump on D1 - again might just be me)
> 
> in re - start of M&F's 207: i dont really see jack's side-eyeing of seshas as a "collosal countertunnel," especially since as far as i see it, he posted about seshas in his big vibe post, and then brought it up a second time specifically when Keldeo asked him about it? i might be missing something in the ISO here, but i dont see jack's vibes as a negative thing rn


I'm putting this one outside a spoiler because I feel like I should be able to make something of how he reads Jack here, but I don't lol. I'll take another look later. If other people have thoughts on this, I'd love to hear them.

tl;dr: I feel fairly good about townreading mewtini and Mr. Ultracool. I'm not sure how to feel about Jack here. I remember both Trebek and Butterfree kinda defending Jack against people pushing up against his mechanical speculation. Jack's vote for Seshas then unvote is like fine or something? Both Jack and storm felt sort of... cavalier at EOD for having a partner up there.


----------



## Butterfree

what the fuck


----------



## Butterfree

I'm the Justice arcana and I have a one-shot power to make the player I choose lynchproof until the following day, which strikes me as a power that's not very useful for town at all but one way or another that's what I got.


----------



## Butterfree

Thoughts on remaining players:

To be honest I don't quite agree with everyone townreading Trebek encouraging people to believe Ultracool but not visit him? If Ultracool were a bomb, then yeah, that'd be weird. But suppose regular old mafia!Ultracool kind of walked into the thread brazenly making a fun claim without quite talking it over with his partners - perhaps the mafia has some role that'd make this potentially accomplish something, but then somebody else in mafia chat goes hey, no, that's a bad idea, if people actually target you they're going to realize you're lying about your role. At that point, the mafia _do_ want people to townread Ultracool, but _don't_ want people to target him and learn that actually he doesn't give out items for as long as possible. Right? It's only a possibility  but I don't think it's impossible.

I've been getting the worst vibes off M&F for one reason or another, but I can't quite confidently say whether it's just a tone/playstyle thing or if it's legitimately suspect without ISOing her.


----------



## JackPK

Butterfree said:


> I'm the Justice arcana and I have a one-shot power to make the player I choose lynchproof until the following day, which strikes me as a power that's not very useful for town at all but one way or another that's what I got.


This claim makes me feel a little weird but I want to wait for the rest of our lurkers to claim before I say why


----------



## Keldeo

Butterfree said:


> I've been getting the worst vibes off M&F for one reason or another, but I can't quite confidently say whether it's just a tone/playstyle thing or if it's legitimately suspect without ISOing her.


I feel like she voted Trebek up to the lead yesterday in a way that didn't seem a lot like a bus. I feel like she gets no credit saying "huh well I think he would give us information". What do you think?



M&F said:


> hmmmmm.... if nothing else, I feel like getting a public alignment check on *Trebek* might be pretty useful in terms of orienting our reads of others? so sure, might as well


----------



## Butterfree

JackPK said:


> Butterfree said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm the Justice arcana and I have a one-shot power to make the player I choose lynchproof until the following day, which strikes me as a power that's not very useful for town at all but one way or another that's what I got.
> 
> 
> 
> This claim makes me feel a little weird but I want to wait for the rest of our lurkers to claim before I say why
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, I'm not sure I see how getting everyone else to claim first would be a legitimate reason to withhold this information. If you want to still be able to catch someone in a counterclaim, explain the relevant evidence without revealing your arcana.


----------



## mewtini

Keldeo said:


> I feel like she gets no credit saying "huh well I think he would give us information". What do you think?


i sort of remember reading mf's 464 feeling like she was taking some credit for the lynch but that's really flimsy

i go back and forth a lot on mf thoughts because i still don't feel great about her tone but i also don't know if i think her posting makes sense for a wolf, but maybe it's that i sort of ... chaos read them? which is maybe a more wolfy attribute than not


----------



## mewtini

Keldeo said:


> I feel like I should be able to make something of how he reads Jack here, but I don't lol. I'll take another look later. If other people have thoughts on this, I'd love to hear them.


i kind of think this might not point towards w/w nor w/v tbh, it matches up with my [irl-ish] understanding of how trebek views the game (i will probably say the words "he likes mech and hates tonereads" in every mafia game we play together) and the comment he makes about "the only way they can [contribute] is mechspec" feels a lot like a projection of how he plays lol


----------



## Keldeo

Butterfree said:


> JackPK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Butterfree said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm the Justice arcana and I have a one-shot power to make the player I choose lynchproof until the following day, which strikes me as a power that's not very useful for town at all but one way or another that's what I got.
> 
> 
> 
> This claim makes me feel a little weird but I want to wait for the rest of our lurkers to claim before I say why
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm sorry, I'm not sure I see how getting everyone else to claim first would be a legitimate reason to withhold this information. If you want to still be able to catch someone in a counterclaim, explain the relevant evidence without revealing your arcana.
Click to expand...

Can I ask, have you got any feelings on Jack in general?


----------



## Stryke

mewtini said:


> i go back and forth a lot on mf thoughts because i still don't feel great about her tone but i also don't know if i think her posting makes sense for a wolf, but maybe it's that i sort of ... chaos read them? which is maybe a more wolfy attribute than not


I don't have very many reads but this is one of the ones I do, I feel pretty much the same rn, tentatively; I wanna dig through the thread some more


----------



## M&F

h.

well, massclaim or no massclaim, we can't afford to dawdle on deciding a lynch target. at least, the good news about being LYLO'd at such high numbers is that, even if we were to take a total shot in the dark, the odds of hitting something good wouldn't be all that bad. so... I guess the only thing for it is to bring up the odds with a little PoE.

The Good
M&F - yadda yadda I read my own role PM this is only here for numerical clarity
Keldeo - first hand on the wheel that pushed Trebek off a cliff, so I feel reasonably safe investing faith here
Mist1422 - a bit early on the softclaim, but besides that, behaved pretty naturally for the role given

The Null
IndigoEmmy - just straight-up didn't play the game, for understandable reasons that ultimately leave us none the wiser about what alignment she randed
Storm - I appreciate the readiness to come forward, but this was a reasonably falsifiable claim, so I can't really afford certainity to it
Mr. Ultracool - h. nothing's left that really properly sheds a light on whether he's telling the whole truth or not. at least, at this point, he's not likely to be in-group scum, so, short of being outgroup scum, we can safely remove him from lynching consideration toDay
Zero Moment - lurking as alwayyyys.

The Bad
Mewtini - least of the bad, really; it's now proven for good that she's not w/w with kyeugh, but some of my earlier read stands, although on weakening foundations
Stryke - I admittedly ignored basically anything between him and RNP -- I frankly do not remember what role he claimed -- but get this: is it possible that RNP's mechanical leniency towards Stryke this time indicates w/w? sure, they both had to keep up appearances by sniping each other, but they also went unexpectedly easy on each other this rodeo
JackPK - sorry, Jack, I can't say your vibes have improved much since D1, and if anything, it feels like you're persisting on pure mechspec at a time when it's not natural to do so even for an old meta player.
Butterfree - did she ever state a reason for inactivity? because otherwise, I feel like she's been more of a goner than usual, even when she posts. and I did catch her claim just before I started this, and well... I don't like it; it smells of overly honest scum claim


----------



## Butterfree

Keldeo said:


> Butterfree said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JackPK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Butterfree said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm the Justice arcana and I have a one-shot power to make the player I choose lynchproof until the following day, which strikes me as a power that's not very useful for town at all but one way or another that's what I got.
> 
> 
> 
> This claim makes me feel a little weird but I want to wait for the rest of our lurkers to claim before I say why
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm sorry, I'm not sure I see how getting everyone else to claim first would be a legitimate reason to withhold this information. If you want to still be able to catch someone in a counterclaim, explain the relevant evidence without revealing your arcana.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Can I ask, have you got any feelings on Jack in general?
Click to expand...

They were good, but obviously since I know I'm town, this sets off some alarm bells (but can't be sure how seriously I should be taking them until he actually reveals what he's talking about, so the coyness is a bit frustrating).


----------



## M&F

Butterfree said:


> Thoughts on remaining players:
> 
> To be honest I don't quite agree with everyone townreading Trebek encouraging people to believe Ultracool but not visit him? If Ultracool were a bomb, then yeah, that'd be weird. But suppose regular old mafia!Ultracool kind of walked into the thread brazenly making a fun claim without quite talking it over with his partners - perhaps the mafia has some role that'd make this potentially accomplish something, but then somebody else in mafia chat goes hey, no, that's a bad idea, if people actually target you they're going to realize you're lying about your role. At that point, the mafia _do_ want people to townread Ultracool, but _don't_ want people to target him and learn that actually he doesn't give out items for as long as possible. Right? It's only a possibility  but I don't think it's impossible.
> 
> I've been getting the worst vibes off M&F for one reason or another, but I can't quite confidently say whether it's just a tone/playstyle thing or if it's legitimately suspect without ISOing her.


um, chief, did I read this right or are you talking about people "townreading Trebek", who _flipped mafia_??


----------



## Butterfree

M&F said:


> Butterfree - did she ever state a reason for inactivity?


For the record it's mostly Art Fight; I've been doing finished colored/shaded art every day since the beginning of July, which as it turns out has sucked up my entire evenings and there is still a server error on TCoD when you try to view locations in Gen II where Crystal has swarms but G/S don't that I've had no time to fix yet which bothers me to no end aaaagh


----------



## Butterfree

M&F said:


> Butterfree said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thoughts on remaining players:
> 
> To be honest I don't quite agree with everyone townreading Trebek encouraging people to believe Ultracool but not visit him? If Ultracool were a bomb, then yeah, that'd be weird. But suppose regular old mafia!Ultracool kind of walked into the thread brazenly making a fun claim without quite talking it over with his partners - perhaps the mafia has some role that'd make this potentially accomplish something, but then somebody else in mafia chat goes hey, no, that's a bad idea, if people actually target you they're going to realize you're lying about your role. At that point, the mafia _do_ want people to townread Ultracool, but _don't_ want people to target him and learn that actually he doesn't give out items for as long as possible. Right? It's only a possibility  but I don't think it's impossible.
> 
> I've been getting the worst vibes off M&F for one reason or another, but I can't quite confidently say whether it's just a tone/playstyle thing or if it's legitimately suspect without ISOing her.
> 
> 
> 
> um, chief, did I read this right or are you talking about people "townreading Trebek", who _flipped mafia_??
Click to expand...

Townreading Ultracool because of Trebek encouraging people etc. etc.


----------



## JackPK

Butterfree said:


> JackPK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Butterfree said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm the Justice arcana and I have a one-shot power to make the player I choose lynchproof until the following day, which strikes me as a power that's not very useful for town at all but one way or another that's what I got.
> 
> 
> 
> This claim makes me feel a little weird but I want to wait for the rest of our lurkers to claim before I say why
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm sorry, I'm not sure I see how getting everyone else to claim first would be a legitimate reason to withhold this information. If you want to still be able to catch someone in a counterclaim, explain the relevant evidence without revealing your arcana.
Click to expand...

Not "everyone", just the four lurkers I thought we'd agreed earlier should claim before everyone else, but fair point, I'll go ahead

I have a one-shot power that can only be activated during the 10-minute grace period between the final vote count and the flip; I can PM VM to nullify the yeet and turn it into a no-yeet

Obviously this isn't a hard counterclaim on you since these roles could both conceivably exist together, but since they both essentially amount to different ways to turn a yeet into a no-yeet, they seem a little too overlapping for my comfort


----------



## JackPK

(I am saving my arcana claim for after the lurkers have claimed)


----------



## M&F

Butterfree said:


> M&F said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Butterfree said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thoughts on remaining players:
> 
> To be honest I don't quite agree with everyone townreading Trebek encouraging people to believe Ultracool but not visit him? If Ultracool were a bomb, then yeah, that'd be weird. But suppose regular old mafia!Ultracool kind of walked into the thread brazenly making a fun claim without quite talking it over with his partners - perhaps the mafia has some role that'd make this potentially accomplish something, but then somebody else in mafia chat goes hey, no, that's a bad idea, if people actually target you they're going to realize you're lying about your role. At that point, the mafia _do_ want people to townread Ultracool, but _don't_ want people to target him and learn that actually he doesn't give out items for as long as possible. Right? It's only a possibility  but I don't think it's impossible.
> 
> I've been getting the worst vibes off M&F for one reason or another, but I can't quite confidently say whether it's just a tone/playstyle thing or if it's legitimately suspect without ISOing her.
> 
> 
> 
> um, chief, did I read this right or are you talking about people "townreading Trebek", who _flipped mafia_??
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Townreading Ultracool because of Trebek encouraging people etc. etc.
Click to expand...

alright, this makes sense now; phew, for a sec there I thought everyone else wasn't catching the fast-read slip-up of the century


----------



## mewtini

M&F said:


> I appreciate the readiness to come forward, but this was a reasonably falsifiable claim, so I can't really afford certainity to it


is it falsifiable? depending on who storm claims to have targeted they'll be able to be found out kind of quickly tbh


----------



## mewtini

unless w!storm just gives out roles for the mafia or something. that would be kind of epic lmfao


----------



## mewtini

mewtini said:


> roles


flavors*


----------



## Butterfree

Huh. Mine's activated with a phrase during the day - which means I can prove it, if it comes to that: arrange for one person to get the most votes, make me lynchproof them, and then have the person we actually want to lynch in second place. Preferably the former would be me, of course; I've asked VM if I can target myself.

Of course that doesn't prove I'm not mafia that has this power, but it should lay this particular concern to rest.


----------



## mewtini

mewtini said:


> M&F said:
> 
> 
> 
> I appreciate the readiness to come forward, but this was a reasonably falsifiable claim, so I can't really afford certainity to it
> 
> 
> 
> is it falsifiable? depending on who storm claims to have targeted they'll be able to be found out kind of quickly tbh
Click to expand...

i guess the bigger issue is that flavorcop is somewhat NAI aiui


----------



## mewtini

M&F said:


> I admittedly ignored basically anything between him and RNP -- I frankly do not remember what role he claimed -- but get this: is it possible that RNP's mechanical leniency towards Stryke this time indicates w/w? sure, they both had to keep up appearances by sniping each other, but they also went unexpectedly easy on each other this rodeo


i'm not sure if you factored in the fact that terrorist RNP probably wouldn't know what alignment stryke (or anyone) was


M&F said:


> if anything, it feels like you're persisting on pure mechspec at a time when it's not natural to do so even for an old meta player.


can you elaborate more on this?


----------



## M&F

JackPK said:


> Butterfree said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JackPK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Butterfree said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm the Justice arcana and I have a one-shot power to make the player I choose lynchproof until the following day, which strikes me as a power that's not very useful for town at all but one way or another that's what I got.
> 
> 
> 
> This claim makes me feel a little weird but I want to wait for the rest of our lurkers to claim before I say why
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm sorry, I'm not sure I see how getting everyone else to claim first would be a legitimate reason to withhold this information. If you want to still be able to catch someone in a counterclaim, explain the relevant evidence without revealing your arcana.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not "everyone", just the four lurkers I thought we'd agreed earlier should claim before everyone else, but fair point, I'll go ahead
> 
> I have a one-shot power that can only be activated during the 10-minute grace period between the final vote count and the flip; I can PM VM to nullify the yeet and turn it into a no-yeet
> 
> Obviously this isn't a hard counterclaim on you since these roles could both conceivably exist together, but since they both essentially amount to different ways to turn a yeet into a no-yeet, they seem a little too overlapping for my comfort
Click to expand...

governor, eh?

I suppose it does seem a little more plausible when you gave the longform explanation, including the specification that VM takes governor PMs at twilight, without seeming to be familiar with the role's common name. not saying that that's a clear, but it does make me less suspicious

although, that said? butterfree demanding this information doesn't look phenomenally towny to me, and that stacks with the rest of the bad vibes. hmmmmmm

oh well, what's for it if not to park there. *Butterfree*


----------



## storm

mewtini said:


> i guess the bigger issue is that flavorcop is somewhat NAI aiui


sorry what does nai stand for here??


----------



## mewtini

not alignment-indicative


----------



## M&F

mewtini said:


> M&F said:
> 
> 
> 
> I appreciate the readiness to come forward, but this was a reasonably falsifiable claim, so I can't really afford certainity to it
> 
> 
> 
> is it falsifiable? depending on who storm claims to have targeted they'll be able to be found out kind of quickly tbh
Click to expand...

I mean, it can be as easy as claiming to have targeted only dead people or people who already had a go at stating their arcana. that's almost everyone right now.

although maybe that can be settled with some direct questions. storm, did you target anyone who's still alive? and has every living player you targeted already claimed their arcana?



mewtini said:


> mewtini said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> M&F said:
> 
> 
> 
> I appreciate the readiness to come forward, but this was a reasonably falsifiable claim, so I can't really afford certainity to it
> 
> 
> 
> is it falsifiable? depending on who storm claims to have targeted they'll be able to be found out kind of quickly tbh
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> i guess the bigger issue is that flavorcop is somewhat NAI aiui
Click to expand...

that's also a problem tho, yeah; it's also a totally reasonable overly honest scum claim



mewtini said:


> M&F said:
> 
> 
> 
> I admittedly ignored basically anything between him and RNP -- I frankly do not remember what role he claimed -- but get this: is it possible that RNP's mechanical leniency towards Stryke this time indicates w/w? sure, they both had to keep up appearances by sniping each other, but they also went unexpectedly easy on each other this rodeo
> 
> 
> 
> i'm not sure if you factored in the fact that terrorist RNP probably wouldn't know what alignment stryke (or anyone) was
Click to expand...

I know, but RNP wasn't any sort of a regular terrorist; I feel like it's hard to say if he was in-group or not, least of all because he did nail two townies without reading shit


----------



## M&F

I'm mostly good to claim btw but I want storm to answer my question first


----------



## mewtini

M&F said:


> I mean, it can be as easy as claiming to have targeted only dead people or people who already had a go at stating their arcana. that's almost everyone right now.


yeah i was mostly saying that we could figure this out upon storm giving results, lol. if they fell into that class then we'd know it wasn't as reliable of a claim.


M&F said:


> I know, but RNP wasn't any sort of a regular terrorist; I feel like it's hard to say if he was in-group or not, least of all because he did nail two townies without reading shit


but his terrorist role being more powerful than normal terrorist makes it more likely for him to be outgroup, imo


----------



## Stryke

M&F said:


> Stryke - I admittedly ignored basically anything between him and RNP -- I frankly do not remember what role he claimed -- but get this: is it possible that RNP's mechanical leniency towards Stryke this time indicates w/w? sure, they both had to keep up appearances by sniping each other, but they also went unexpectedly easy on each other this rodeo


Define easy? His earliest post in the thread was to vote for me, I voted for him immediately afterwards, he used his Tower bomb to get Herbe to vote for me, and even though it was misguided, I tried throwing him under the bus the moment I had some (what I thought to be) evidence against him


----------



## mewtini

Stryke said:


> I tried throwing him under the bus the moment I had some (what I thought to be) evidence against him


yeah

i guess it's maybe possible for stryke to be ingroup unaware of rnp being outgroup but i'm townreading stryke


----------



## M&F

Stryke said:


> M&F said:
> 
> 
> 
> Stryke - I admittedly ignored basically anything between him and RNP -- I frankly do not remember what role he claimed -- but get this: is it possible that RNP's mechanical leniency towards Stryke this time indicates w/w? sure, they both had to keep up appearances by sniping each other, but they also went unexpectedly easy on each other this rodeo
> 
> 
> 
> Define easy? His earliest post in the thread was to vote for me, I voted for him immediately afterwards, he used his Tower bomb to get Herbe to vote for me, and even though it was misguided, I tried throwing him under the bus the moment I had some (what I thought to be) evidence against him
Click to expand...

yeah, voting for you, which is exactly what he does every single game and is well aware doesn't get you lynched on its own. and I feel like it's at least a highly reasonable read of the turn of events that he was using his tower powers primarily to goad Herbe into breaking the rules and being modkilled

and yeah, you tried to get RedneckPhoenix lynched even harder. then it failed. then RedneckPhoenix claimed that derpcleared you, and you proceeded to move on from pushing RedneckPhoenix, even as a joke. convenient, isn't it?

last but not least, I'm not sure if you just committed the freudian slip of the century or you just don't understand what "throwing someone under the bus" normally means in mafia lingo-


----------



## Mr. Ultracool

Butterfree said:


> Huh. Mine's activated with a phrase during the day - which means I can prove it, if it comes to that: arrange for one person to get the most votes, make me lynchproof them, and then have the person we actually want to lynch in second place. Preferably the former would be me, of course; I've asked VM if I can target myself.
> 
> Of course that doesn't prove I'm not mafia that has this power, but it should lay this particular concern to rest.


So, it doesn't count as a visit so I could prove that I'm the Wheel of Fortune like I said?


----------



## storm

yes the people I targeted are both alive and I don't think have claimed yet - they're both active posters, not lurkers


----------



## mewtini

M&F said:


> yeah, voting for you, which is exactly what he does every single game and is well aware doesn't get you lynched on its own. and I feel like it's at least a highly reasonable read of the turn of events that he was using his tower powers primarily to goad Herbe into breaking the rules and being modkilled
> 
> and yeah, you tried to get RedneckPhoenix lynched even harder. then it failed. then RedneckPhoenix claimed that derpcleared you, and you proceeded to move on from pushing RedneckPhoenix, even as a joke. convenient, isn't it?
> 
> last but not least, I'm not sure if you just committed the freudian slip of the century or you just don't understand what "throwing someone under the bus" normally means in mafia lingo-


what tbh


----------



## JackPK

M&F said:


> governor, eh?
> 
> I suppose it does seem a little more plausible when you gave the longform explanation, including the specification that VM takes governor PMs at twilight, without seeming to be familiar with the role's common name. not saying that that's a clear, but it does make me less suspicious


oh, I didn't mean to make it sound like I didn't know the role's name! after I got my role PM, I did a bunch of research on MafiaUniverse's wiki and managed to find it (I hadn't heard of it before this, which is why I assumed y'all wouldn't have heard of it either so I explained it the long way)

just wanted to put that on the table right now because I _did_ attempt to subtly hint at "governor" early on, and if anyone noticed/goes back and notices, I don't want that to turn into a "gotcha"



Butterfree said:


> Huh. Mine's activated with a phrase during the day - which means I can prove it, if it comes to that: arrange for one person to get the most votes, make me lynchproof them, and then have the person we actually want to lynch in second place. Preferably the former would be me, of course; I've asked VM if I can target myself.
> 
> Of course that doesn't prove I'm not mafia that has this power, but it should lay this particular concern to rest.


Interesting! I mean, in an ideal world, it'd be nice if neither of us had to throw away our shot for no better reason than to clear ourself, but that does make sense if we want to go that route.


----------



## JackPK

JackPK said:


> it'd be nice if neither of us had to throw away our shot for no better reason than to clear ourself


I wrote this hurriedly -- I should add, it'd be especially nice if we didn't have to do this when the game is potentially at or very near LyLo


----------



## storm

I don't mind saying who I targeted, if that's necessary? I think both of the results I got weren't very conclusive for alignment guesses but the more information the better, at this point


----------



## Mr. Ultracool

storm said:


> I don't mind saying who I targeted, if that's necessary? I think both of the results I got weren't very conclusive for alignment guesses but the more information the better, at this point


You didn't happen to receive an item, did you?


----------



## Butterfree

Mr. Ultracool said:


> Butterfree said:
> 
> 
> 
> Huh. Mine's activated with a phrase during the day - which means I can prove it, if it comes to that: arrange for one person to get the most votes, make me lynchproof them, and then have the person we actually want to lynch in second place. Preferably the former would be me, of course; I've asked VM if I can target myself.
> 
> Of course that doesn't prove I'm not mafia that has this power, but it should lay this particular concern to rest.
> 
> 
> 
> So, it doesn't count as a visit so I could prove that I'm the Wheel of Fortune like I said?
Click to expand...

I’ve been assuming it wouldn’t count as a visit since it’s a day action.


----------



## M&F

very well. it's finally time for M&F sexy beautiful tell-all.






I'm on *the mooooooon*!

I just cop, like a bastard.

god, though, you're all about to understand the _depths of my fury_. first, I rand (almost) the exact role I just fakeclaimed on my previous mob run. then, the people I target just keep on dying. like, this is a really bad time to get mislynched, and some of the scummiest people were already lining up to get'er done before this. oh well.

I can at least say this much: I've been breadcrumbing. sometimes, on purpose, but also, I just outright turned off the part of my brain that tells me not to completely give away the fact that I have a powerful role. I'm not going to make anyone go look for my crumbs on EoD, though, so I can isolate a few things I know I posted on purpose if that helps


----------



## M&F

oh yeah, I forgot to say who the dead people were. kokorico N0, kyeugh N1. both green, naturally.


----------



## Stryke

M&F said:


> Stryke said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> M&F said:
> 
> 
> 
> Stryke - I admittedly ignored basically anything between him and RNP -- I frankly do not remember what role he claimed -- but get this: is it possible that RNP's mechanical leniency towards Stryke this time indicates w/w? sure, they both had to keep up appearances by sniping each other, but they also went unexpectedly easy on each other this rodeo
> 
> 
> 
> Define easy? His earliest post in the thread was to vote for me, I voted for him immediately afterwards, he used his Tower bomb to get Herbe to vote for me, and even though it was misguided, I tried throwing him under the bus the moment I had some (what I thought to be) evidence against him
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> yeah, voting for you, which is exactly what he does every single game and is well aware doesn't get you lynched on its own. and I feel like it's at least a highly reasonable read of the turn of events that he was using his tower powers primarily to goad Herbe into breaking the rules and being modkilled
> 
> and yeah, you tried to get RedneckPhoenix lynched even harder. then it failed. then RedneckPhoenix claimed that derpcleared you, and you proceeded to move on from pushing RedneckPhoenix, even as a joke. convenient, isn't it?
> 
> last but not least, I'm not sure if you just committed the freudian slip of the century or you just don't understand what "throwing someone under the bus" normally means in mafia lingo-
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'll admit he votes me and he probably knows nothing will ever come of it. However, if I really wanted to get cleared, why would I bother claiming, or even coming up with a reason in general to have to lynch him? We could've easily just gone on voting for each other for shits and giggles and that would've basically done the same thing. Plus, it wasn't just him that claimed I was derpcleared; I know kyeugh mentioned it as well. Also I don't play mafia outside of here, so if that's a no-no phrase, then I wouldn't know


----------



## Butterfree

I think I feel good about Jack’s claim and why he’d find mine suspect, and M&F continues to give me the worst vibes and I think her push on me here has felt very opportunistic, so I’m going to go ahead and park on *M&F* in case I manage to be a doofus and miss EoD tomorrow again somehow.

Inb4 omgus accusations


----------



## Butterfree

Okay ugh *unvote*. I ~guess~ I’ll just have to come back tomorrow and actually ISO. >:/


----------



## Butterfree

Okay apparently I not only can’t target myself with my power but it’ll prevent the lynch altogether. Why is this a town role again


----------



## M&F

fuck's sake, I can't ISO myself because I have an ampersand on my name. do y'all have the same issue?


----------



## JackPK

M&F said:


> fuck's sake, I can't ISO myself because I have an ampersand on my name. do y'all have the same issue?


yeah, I tried to ISO you last day phase and the ampersand screwed it up


----------



## Butterfree

M&F said:


> fuck's sake, I can't ISO myself because I have an ampersand on my name. do y'all have the same issue?


Oh, hmm. It should be possible to fix that. Will check it out tomorrow if I can (I say, like I have any time for anything ahaha)


----------



## mewtini

M&F said:


> fuck's sake, I can't ISO myself because I have an ampersand on my name. do y'all have the same issue?


if you use the searchbar and type your name in there/search among posts from this thread, it'll work!


----------



## Butterfree

Anyway I need to go to sleep. This has been a profoundly sleep-deprived week for me ugh why is time. Can I please bribe God for like four extra hours in my day.


----------



## M&F

okay, I solved it faster anyway, let's do this


----------



## mewtini

Butterfree said:


> Okay apparently I not only can’t target myself with my power but it’ll prevent the lynch altogether. Why is this a town role again


oh. hmmmmm. thinking


----------



## Butterfree

For the record I vaguely feel like I remember some breadcrumbing, don’t entirely remember if it was you but it seems to check out.


----------



## Butterfree

I do remember MF commenting that it’s very possible to roll the role you just fakeclaimed early on, I think.


----------



## storm

Mr. Ultracool said:


> You didn't happen to receive an item, did you?


I did not! so I can't confirm your role or if there are items on hand anywhere


----------



## Butterfree

ANYWAY actual sleep time, good night


----------



## M&F

here come the crumbs!



MampersandF said:


>


this minion is standing on the moon. I picked this one to purposefully match my arcana. what, you expect I was going to post a minion meme _not_ intent on turning it into the smoking gun?



MampersandF said:


> for what it's worth, I can attest that genuinely randing a role you just recently fakeclaimed _very much happens_ and it is terrible-


I might as well have gone "wink wink, nudge nudge"



MampersandF said:


> M&F said:
> 
> 
> 
> if we have a cop, is it better for them to have more useful checks or a gun?
> 
> 
> 
> incidentally, let's phrase this in a way that's even better to quote out of context: I do not think cops should go get themselves guns-
Click to expand...

this is actually not a crumb. I stand by all of it, as lingo or not-

(one might argue that I'd possibly have cleared up the mess with Ultracool if I did go get a gun off him, but I check specifically for mafia vs nor mafia; not helpful for fishing out third parties)



MampersandF said:


> god man it really, really sucks that kokorico bit it. ask me to elaborate why later. like a lot later


yeah, it's later now, and you know exactly why I'm steaming mad about this still.

the worst part is that I thought e was looking good on everyone's eyes following the lynch of trebek, so I wouldn't have to go out of my way to protect em. it pains me to say this, but herbe, you have disappointed your big sis-

anyways, is it still totally possible that I was 4D chessing a fakeclaim as far back as then -- even as far back as the other crumb? I can't deny that, but really, considering the amount of shit that's gone belly-up for me in this game, well. breadcrumbing about targeting kokorico was the _least_ I could to protect a future claim of mine from the mob twisting things around.


----------



## Novae

(i knew you were cop the second you made the koko post because someone did the exact same thing recently)


----------



## M&F

now, some of you might be wondering, why did I cast aspersions on kyeugh when I had a green on her?

first, because godfathers are a thing, and because the preoposterous amount of inforoles in this game was looking increasingly less likely to be due to people fakeclaiming, I figured that was very much a high balance possibility. (now that kyeugh flipped town again on death, though, well, she's probably not the godfather.) second, just because I wasn't bothering to hide that I'm cop, doesn't mean it's a good idea for me to stop acting naturally; so what I did was, present the reasoning that led me to checking kyeugh, but also contradict myself and weaken the push. this was also needed because I wanted to see what reaction Mewtini would have to it, but all I got was a masterful lack of reaction, so, aaaaalas.


----------



## mewtini

MampersandF said:


> this was also needed because I wanted to see what reaction Mewtini would have to it, but all I got was a masterful lack of reaction, so, aaaaalas.


lmfao, sorry, i was not around. fwiw i sussed skylar a bit and talked about how i had a bad metaread on her


----------



## mewtini

by 'bad metaread' i mean 'i really thought she'd flip red'


----------



## M&F

oh yeah --  I don't know if we're making it past this phase and, if we do, fat chance in hell the cop is going to live when they got away with shooting the watcher, but I'm open to suggestions on who to cop

like, I do have a target in mind, but I'm not saying who because that'd help the mob and not us; regardless, I'm open to suggestions


----------



## Zero Moment

what the fuck happened today


----------



## Zero Moment

*ahem*
Witness me, in my glorious incandescence! I am *The Sun*, a bastion of happiness and joy. Any who see my brilliant aura will know my majesty.


----------



## Zero Moment




----------



## Keldeo

Zero Moment said:


> *ahem*
> Witness me, in my glorious incandescence! I am *The Sun*, a bastion of happiness and joy. Any who see my brilliant aura will know my majesty.


(sorry I don't get it, do you like tell people you're the sun? :o)


----------



## Zero Moment

I do!


----------



## Keldeo

Oh! Like people who visit you, or people who you visit? Do you know who you've told?


----------



## Zero Moment

I told everyone, just now


----------



## JackPK

I think what Keldeo's getting at here is, what's your role, mechanically?


----------



## Zero Moment

My role is that I tell everyone that I am *The Sun*! Mechanically I am an Innocent Child, though I prefer the term Glorious Warrior instead!


----------



## Keldeo

My reads are real blah this game. I have to be townreading someone wrongly if there are 5 mafia, but I'm really not sure where I am going wrong.

My "claim seems legit" pile is ZM, Mist, MF (kind of wondering why Moon is cop, though, lol). 

I think the way Jack led into his claim reads as fairly genuine, besides the lack of arcana claim? I feel like mafia governor Jack would have either saved Trebek or grabbed cred for not saving Trebek, but this is predicated on believing him in the first place.

It's possible that I'm wrongfully reading mewt based on Trebek's posts - she is kinda less solvey than I would expect after a surprise red flip.

I have an item thief ability. n0 ZM n1 Mr. Ultracool, received no feedback each time, so Mr. Ultracool was lying or I was blocked or something. But if Mr. Ultracool was lying, no one else has claimed anything related to items (I assume if someone had an item-giving ability they would have counterclaimed on day 1, so only Emmy and rari are unclaimed), meaning that this ability would be totally useless. So I guess I kind of want to let him vibe for another day again. 

idk on Butterfree, Stryke, storm. One thing I wanted to note is that both Mr. Ultracool and Stryke seem to have abilities dependent on people targeting them, but a good number of the claimed abilities so far don't target at night.

I think we should be trying to consolidate votes on someone so that mafia aren't able to force the yeet onto someone else in the worst case. So I'll vote *IndigoEmmy*.


----------



## Keldeo

Keldeo said:


> I have an item thief ability.


I didn't breadcrumb this anywhere, btw, but it was an unstated reason I said item-related abilities were plausible yesterday. 

I have another ability but I don't think it'd be helpful to claim it.


----------



## Vipera Magnifica

*7 hours remain in the day phase.*

Vote Totals:
*IndigoEmmy* (2) (Mist1422, Keldeo)
*Butterfree* (1) (M&F)
*(abstain) *(1) (Mr. Ultracool)



Spoiler: Vote History



kyeugh votes Herbe (#462)
M&F votes mewtini (#464)
RedneckPhoenix votes Stryke (#469)
Stryke votes RedneckPhoenix (#495)
Mr. Ultracool votes RedneckPhoenix (#507)
RedneckPhoenix votes for Herbe (#552)
Stryke unvotes (#558)
*Mist1422 votes IndigoEmmy (#584)*
Herbe votes Stryke (#607)
kyeugh votes RedneckPhoenix (#629)
M&F votes RedneckPhoenix (#634)
JackPK votes RedneckPhoenix (#683)
*Mr. Ultracool votes abstain (#710)
M&F votes Butterfree (#749)*
Butterfree votes M&F (#769)
Butterfree unvotes (#770)
*Keldeo votes IndigoEmmy (#798)*


----------



## M&F

Zero Moment said:


> My role is that I tell everyone that I am *The Sun*! Mechanically I am an Innocent Child, though I prefer the term Glorious Warrior instead!


hello there, equal and opposite!

I take it that people receive a greencheck off you when they visit you, then? if you're the variety that gets announced on a GM post, well, that hasn't happened yet, ahah

(still, this claim is basically impossible to falsify; I'm inclined to believe it. although there is one exception scenario here, if ZM were counting on us not making it past toDay... that's just max tinfoil tho)



Keldeo said:


> (kind of wondering why Moon is cop, though, lol).


mastery of secrets and mysteries, babey!



Keldeo said:


> I think the way Jack led into his claim reads as fairly genuine, besides the lack of arcana claim? I feel like mafia governor Jack would have either saved Trebek or grabbed cred for not saving Trebek, but this is predicated on believing him in the first place.


it's true that, in the event of overly honest scum claim, it's likely that Jack would have used the power to save Trebek. although I'll have to double check -- was he around for the stretch of EoD when the winds really turned against Trebek? but if he was, then yeah, it becomes likeliest that this is either an honest town claim or a completely false scum claim.



Keldeo said:


> It's possible that I'm wrongfully reading mewt based on Trebek's posts - she is kinda less solvey than I would expect after a surprise red flip.


yeahhhh; I don't know how Around she is for this EoD, but she hasn't commented on Jack or Butterfree at all beyond reacts, even though there's a fair deal of solve to be had there. also, she hasn't joined the massclaim; fair enough if she has an important role, but I mean, we now have a claimed cop, so.



Keldeo said:


> I have an item thief ability. n0 ZM n1 Mr. Ultracool, received no feedback each time, so Mr. Ultracool was lying or I was blocked or something. But if Mr. Ultracool was lying, no one else has claimed anything related to items (I assume if someone had an item-giving ability they would have counterclaimed on day 1, so only Emmy and rari are unclaimed), meaning that this ability would be totally useless. So I guess I kind of want to let him vibe for another day again.


yeah, that's. pretty interesting. I suppose an ability like that would be likeliest to imply even multiple item-based roles, although super narrow roles aren't unheard of. it does make it reasonably occam's razor that mr. ultracool was telling the truth after all, being that this confirms we most likely have at least one role that distribs items.



Keldeo said:


> idk on Butterfree, Stryke, storm. One thing I wanted to note is that both Mr. Ultracool and Stryke seem to have abilities dependent on people targeting them, but a good number of the claimed abilities so far don't target at night.


hmmm. watcher, cop, rolecop, item thief... yeah, that's seeming to be the case. like, it's possible that a lot of our unclaimed deads are targeting powers and/or it's just a setup problem, but it also is that claiming a non-targeting role is a lot easier if you're fakeclaiming; don't have to come up with a list of targets and all.



Keldeo said:


> I think we should be trying to consolidate votes on someone so that mafia aren't able to force the yeet onto someone else in the worst case. So I'll vote *IndigoEmmy*.


true, so I'll wagon with y'all on *IndigoEmmy*, but man, I hope we can get the town on board for a better idea soon; that's, 100% organic-grade shot in the dark.

also, mislynching IndigoEmmy for the lose isn't even an original move at this point

@storm well, time's almost up; what do you have for results?


----------



## storm

I targeted keldeo on night 0 and mist on night 1, and got the fool and the high priestess, respectively 

given the pace of the game I don't think finding out another arcana tonight will be useful so. I can't contribute too much there,,,


----------



## storm

it does seem a little underpowered of a role compared to. some of the others, in retrospect


----------



## Novae

now I don’t even have to claim flavor yay


----------



## M&F

storm said:


> I targeted keldeo on night 0 and mist on night 1, and got the fool and the high priestess, respectively
> 
> given the pace of the game I don't think finding out another arcana tonight will be useful so. I can't contribute too much there,,,


so, keldeo is the fool, huh-

nice, though; those were both unclaimed! if keldeo doesn't counterclaim that, I suppose we can believe your claim fully. now, whether you're town or doing the ol' overly honest scum claim is a different matter altogether, but still, thanks for the cooperation


----------



## JackPK

Now that more flavorclaims are in, this seems like a fair time to reveal I am the Emperor.


----------



## M&F

JackPK said:


> Now that more flavorclaims are in, this seems like a fair time to reveal I am the Emperor.


I see! although, was there any particular reason you wanted to do your flavor claim later down the line?


----------



## JackPK

MampersandF said:


> JackPK said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now that more flavorclaims are in, this seems like a fair time to reveal I am the Emperor.
> 
> 
> 
> I see! although, was there any particular reason you wanted to do your flavor claim later down the line?
Click to expand...

I thought we were trying to go in order from low activity/high suspicion to high activity/low suspicion so I had the impression I belonged more in the middle of the pack rather than right at the start, that's all.


----------



## mewtini

i’m doc lol, card is the hermit, i sit in my house alone and just vibe brewing shit up. skylar n0 and seshas n1 (hence why i brought up the strongman thing!)


----------



## mewtini

i think i was asked about bfree and jack thoughts

i liked both of their claims in the moment but after bfree clarified her role i feel like it would be weird for them to coexist (aside from time of execution they now seem like very nearly the same role, unless i’m missing something)


----------



## mewtini

anyway, seshas claimed she watched skylar n0 and got no result, but i kinda liked the claim itself and gambled on it being a roleblocker or something. cats flashback


----------



## mewtini

didn’t think wagons were w/w and disliked trebek’s claim and EoD more


----------



## JackPK

mewtini said:


> anyway, seshas claimed she watched skylar n0 and got no result, but i kinda liked the claim itself and gambled on it being a roleblocker or something. cats flashback


bruh I wonder if roleblocker was Trebek

(I know it's a role that could go either town or scum, but using it n0 is super scummy play so I think it could line up for Trebek better than anyone else who didn't/hasn't claimed)


----------



## mewtini

@IndigoEmmy is all that’s left?


----------



## JackPK

Jack reads... 2!






*me*
me

*too valuable to lose (if telling the truth)*
M&F
mewtini

*waiting for the InnoChild GM confirmation, will sus if that doesn't happen after awhile but for now I'm vibing*
Zero Moment

*keep flipping back and forth on the fence about*
Butterfree - role seems weirdly overlapping with mine! but wifom she seems really genuine-sounding! but wifom she seemed really genuine-sounding in Cats also! but wifom our roles are just different enough that maybe shenanigans mean both exist! but wifom but wifom but wifom

*non-indicative roleclaim/could easily be either truth or a lie/will have to go back and reread*
Stryke 
Mist
Storm

**
Ultracool - still no proof of the existence of items, besides Keldeo's claim of an item-related role
Keldeo - "item thief AND something else he won't say yet" is an oddly double-barreled claim but I guess since RNP was evidently also an odd double-barreled role, I'm not sussing _too_ hard yet. only _some _hard

*playing extremely differently from usual*
Emmy - I literally don't think I've ever seen her this quiet


----------



## JackPK

Keldeo said:


> I think we should be trying to consolidate votes on someone so that mafia aren't able to force the yeet onto someone else in the worst case. So I'll vote *IndigoEmmy*.


IIRC you've said before you like having multiple wagons. Why do you now want a consolidated single wagon? And if we're indeed at the worst case and it's LyLo, why should we trust you to be the one to try to get the wagon rolling?

(50% I'm trying to KeldeoPress(TM) here and 50% I feel out of my depth and inexperienced and want clarity for my own understanding)


----------



## mewtini

you think mist’s claim is NAI?


----------



## mewtini

mewtini said:


> you think mist’s claim is NAI?


ok i looked it up and see it listed as either alignment but it struck me as pro-town


----------



## JackPK

mewtini said:


> you think mist’s claim is NAI?


I think oracle is an easy claim to lie and claim to have when you actually don't. iirc Mist hasn't claimed any oracle answers that were later proved to be true


----------



## IndigoClaudia

mewtini said:


> @IndigoEmmy is all that’s left?


Hello friends i'm actually not mafia bye.


----------



## IndigoClaudia

Please don't vote for me guys. I'm actually not mafia.


----------



## mewtini

inopportune timing but might be afk for the next few hours so i’ll park on *emmy*


----------



## JackPK

IndigoEmmy said:


> Please don't vote for me guys. I'm actually not mafia.


Everyone else has mass-roleclaimed yesterday and today; can you claim your role too, please?


----------



## Keldeo

I am the fool, yeah.

I’m like :? at mewtini’s claim contradicting Seshas’s ahah.



JackPK said:


> Keldeo said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think we should be trying to consolidate votes on someone so that mafia aren't able to force the yeet onto someone else in the worst case. So I'll vote *IndigoEmmy*.
> 
> 
> 
> IIRC you've said before you like having multiple wagons. Why do you now want a consolidated single wagon? And if we're indeed at the worst case and it's LyLo, why should we trust you to be the one to try to get the wagon rolling?
> 
> (50% I'm trying to KeldeoPress(TM) here and 50% I feel out of my depth and inexperienced and want clarity for my own understanding)
Click to expand...

If this is LYLO, getting everyone onto one of two wagons is technically mechanically correct - in the worst case of every mafia being willing and able to switch votes onto the same townie at EOD, every town needs to vote the same mafia for the game to continue. I talked about the latter possibility / why town splitting wagons at LYLO is bad in Cats scum chat. I think trying to get actually everyone to vote right now is a fool’s errand, though.

If the second question is “why townread me,” I think the most compelling thing is I don’t think I’d vote Trebek when I did and in the way I did if he was my partner.


----------



## Keldeo

It is possible that I am helping lead everyone off a cliff with this vote, which at least would match my flavor! :wowee:


----------



## JackPK

Keldeo said:


> It is possible that I am helping lead everyone off a cliff with this vote, which at least would match my flavor! :wowee:


keldeooooooooo don't do this to me

but I understand your reasoning, I will tentatively join you on *IndigoEmmy* pending when/whether she roleclaims


----------



## Keldeo

JackPK said:


> Keldeo said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is possible that I am helping lead everyone off a cliff with this vote, which at least would match my flavor! :wowee:
> 
> 
> 
> keldeooooooooo don't do this to me
> 
> but I understand your reasoning, I will tentatively join you on *IndigoEmmy* pending when/whether she roleclaims
Click to expand...

Oh, that isn’t an “openwolf” joke haha, I just would feel quite bad and unsurprised if Emmy flipped town.

Did you consider saving Trebek with your role yesterday?


----------



## JackPK

No, I was really just not getting any useful reads off him one way or the other at all (which I mentioned a couple of times at that time and earlier toDay), so I didn't want to use my one shot on that. I was hoping to save it for a situation where I was solidly townreading the yeetee.


----------



## Keldeo

JackPK said:


> mewtini said:
> 
> 
> 
> you think mist’s claim is NAI?
> 
> 
> 
> I think oracle is an easy claim to lie and claim to have when you actually don't. iirc Mist hasn't claimed any oracle answers that were later proved to be true
Click to expand...

So like you think they could’ve been planning to fake claim oracle from the very start of day 1? I guess that’s possible but it seems a little farfetched to me I guess.


----------



## mewtini

hrgh 
still not around really but thought harder and now i’m like. fearful that this is essentially just an inactive lynch/likely on town, *unvote* for now (decision pending EoD stuff)


----------



## Keldeo

mewtini said:


> hrgh
> still not around really but thought harder and now i’m like. fearful that this is essentially just an inactive lynch/likely on town, *unvote* for now (decision pending EoD stuff)


What are your reads looking like, do you have any better ideas?


----------



## Novae

Keldeo said:


> I am the fool, yeah.


aren’t we all


----------



## Keldeo

Mist, what inspired you to ask the questions that you did when you did?


----------



## mewtini

Keldeo said:


> mewtini said:
> 
> 
> 
> hrgh
> still not around really but thought harder and now i’m like. fearful that this is essentially just an inactive lynch/likely on town, *unvote* for now (decision pending EoD stuff)
> 
> 
> 
> What are your reads looking like, do you have any better ideas?
Click to expand...

i’m basically at mist/butterfree/mf/stryke? town right now. i don’t have any better ideas but am going to sit back and watch whether or not the emmy wagon simply barrels forward tbh


----------



## mewtini

maybe also a ? on butterfree in that list actually


----------



## mewtini

i don’t really hate an emmy lynch but the sort of complicit consensus about it so far makes me uneasy, and if i don’t know if i’ll be around for EoD i don’t know if i want to be extra weight on that wagon


----------



## Vipera Magnifica

*1 hour remains in the day phase.*

Vote Totals:
*IndigoEmmy* (4) (Mist1422, Keldeo, M&F, JackPK)
*(abstain) *(1) (Mr. Ultracool)



Spoiler: Vote History



kyeugh votes Herbe (#462)
M&F votes mewtini (#464)
RedneckPhoenix votes Stryke (#469)
Stryke votes RedneckPhoenix (#495)
Mr. Ultracool votes RedneckPhoenix (#507)
RedneckPhoenix votes for Herbe (#552)
Stryke unvotes (#558)
*Mist1422 votes IndigoEmmy (#584)*
Herbe votes Stryke (#607)
kyeugh votes RedneckPhoenix (#629)
M&F votes RedneckPhoenix (#634)
JackPK votes RedneckPhoenix (#683)
*Mr. Ultracool votes abstain (#710)*
M&F votes Butterfree (#749)
Butterfree votes M&F (#769)
Butterfree unvotes (#770)
*Keldeo votes IndigoEmmy (#798)
M&F votes IndigoEmmy (#801)*
mewtini votes IndigoEmmy (#822)
*JackPK votes IndigoEmmy (#826)*
mewtini unvotes (#830)


----------



## Keldeo

mewtini said:


> maybe also a ? on butterfree in that list actually


Could you expand on why for Butterfree and Stryke?


----------



## mewtini

Keldeo said:


> mewtini said:
> 
> 
> 
> maybe also a ? on butterfree in that list actually
> 
> 
> 
> Could you expand on why for Butterfree and Stryke?
Click to expand...

butterfree because idk how to read the claim situation with jack, stryke because although i really liked his defenses against being w/w with rnp i guess it’s fakeable and also sounds loosely different than his normal posting. but it’s a decent townlean


----------



## Novae

Keldeo said:


> Mist, what inspired you to ask the questions that you did when you did?


n0 was because of the ultracool flip situation in cats
n1 was because I wanted to know exactly how close to loss we were


----------



## mewtini

fakeable was not the right word tbh, i guess just “doable as wolf”


----------



## Keldeo

Sorry, mewtini, I mean what reason do you have to TR Butterfree at all / over Jack, based on their posting since you're confused about the claims, not why the ? is there.

Also, it's been ~7 hours since the IndigoEmmy wagon got 2 votes and there have only been a handful of people in thread. So like if she's town, the mafia are not going to stop the wagon because they obviously wouldn't want to. But also if she is mafia, I have a hard time seeing the mafia being able to stop the wagon because no one is around.


----------



## Keldeo

Mist1422 said:


> Keldeo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mist, what inspired you to ask the questions that you did when you did?
> 
> 
> 
> n0 was because of the ultracool flip situation in cats
> n1 was because I wanted to know exactly how close to loss we were
Click to expand...

Close to loss after yeeting mafia day 1?


----------



## mewtini

Keldeo said:


> Sorry, mewtini, I mean what reason do you have to TR Butterfree at all / over Jack, based on their posting since you're confused about the claims, not why the ? is there.


oh, oops. i’m not far off from “one of bfree/jack is town”-land but i suffer from liking butterfree’s tone. i also thought that her drawing info out of jack was fairly towny, though i think that seemed to be read in a few different ways, while i’m sort of sitting at mostly null on jack by tone


----------



## mewtini

i think it’s possible that her interaction with jack was also just NAI but i really liked it on read


----------



## Keldeo

This feels like one of those games where I have no clue what's going on while I'm alive, and then when the game ends it's like "oh well I guess that makes sense, should've been able to get that."


----------



## Novae

Keldeo said:


> Mist1422 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Keldeo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mist, what inspired you to ask the questions that you did when you did?
> 
> 
> 
> n0 was because of the ultracool flip situation in cats
> n1 was because I wanted to know exactly how close to loss we were
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Close to loss after yeeting mafia day 1?
Click to expand...

/shrug


----------



## Keldeo

So I got the impression that mewtini disliked being mafia in Snom Mafia. Randing mafia in another game seems like it would dispirit her, and she's felt sort of dispirited all game and generally a bit more reactive in her solving today, after theoretically losing a mafia partner. 

I do think that could be attributed to time issues, because she was able to be proactive in Snom Mafia, and I thought she looked pretty good in her interactions with Trebek, like he was trying to pocket her.


----------



## Zero Moment

As they have not done anything to help town avoid their lynching I will vote *IndigoEmmy.*
The longer we go without anyone apparently receiving any items, the more sus I am about MU's inventor claim. Suppose we'll see how that turns out Tomorrow.


----------



## Keldeo

Hey ZM, when is VM supposed to reveal that you are the innocent child?

I'm 100% hinging my read on Mist on their claim. I think Mist is either telling the truth about their claim or made it up on day 1, or as the kids say, "way back". I think if she is telling the truth, giving everyone the information that she has been as mafia doesn't have much of an agenda to it...? And her second claimed question tells her very little if she is mafia. I definitely had a stronger reason to TR her based on her claim but I don't remember right now lol


----------



## Keldeo

My only hesitation on MF is like, the fact that both of her checks are conveniently dead. 

I'm always a sucker for cute breadcrumbs, and I'm not really sure how she would know claiming cop was safe unless like, mafia have a rolecop that checked rari or kyeugh or someone as the cop (which I think would imply storm being town btw).


----------



## M&F

we really don't have time now to get everyone on board for a lynch on better odds, do we? hurf

I'm going to switch back to *Butterfree* and keep an eye on the situation. fingers crossed all around


----------



## M&F

Keldeo said:


> My only hesitation on MF is like, the fact that both of her checks are conveniently dead.
> 
> I'm always a sucker for cute breadcrumbs, and I'm not really sure how she would know claiming cop was safe unless like, mafia have a rolecop that checked rari or kyeugh or someone as the cop (which I think would imply storm being town btw).


oh, trust me, from where I'm standing it's not convenient at all-


----------



## mewtini

hey mf, where do you stand on jack/bfree (in relation to each other?)


----------



## mewtini

oh god it’s 3:38 wtf


----------



## M&F

mewtini said:


> hey mf, where do you stand on jack/bfree (in relation to each other?)


I don't trust either of them, but it's reasonable to expect it likely that only one of them is lying, and I believe it's likelier to be Butterfree


----------



## Keldeo

Uh, I guess you could say the same about how would mewtini know that claiming doctor is safe, but presumably an alive doctor would have targeted Seshas. I'm still pretty "hmm" about why she would have kept voting Trebek if she had targeted kyeugh n0, or why she would have said she targeted kyeugh n0 given Seshas's claim. So idk about that part.

All that is to say that I come down on townreading MF and Mist tbh.

And either I don't remember how innocent child works or ZM should have been publicly confirmed by now?


----------



## mewtini

why?


----------



## mewtini

mewtini said:


> why?


at mf lol


----------



## Keldeo

*Butterfree*

I'm vibing?


----------



## mewtini

is it possible that it’s an altered innochild? i think that would be up to zm to elaborate on though


----------



## Novae

are we vibing?

we’re vibing


----------



## Novae

what’s the case on butterfree tbh? emmy feels like I would expect her wolf meta to be and I do have wolf meta on bfree though I’d need to double-check


----------



## mewtini

i think wagons are tied right now and i haven’t really read back but i think i like bfree >: *emmy *again


----------



## mewtini

Mist1422 said:


> what’s the case on butterfree tbh? emmy feels like I would expect her wolf meta to be and I do have wolf meta on bfree though I’d need to double-check


can you talk more about the bfree wolfmeta?


----------



## Keldeo

Mist1422 said:


> what’s the case on butterfree tbh? emmy feels like I would expect her wolf meta to be and I do have wolf meta on bfree though I’d need to double-check


aiui, her claimed role (one-shot to say a phrase in the thread, yeetee becomes yeetproof so the yeet becomes a no-yeet) seems to be quite similar to Jack's claimed role (one-shot to PM VM during twilight and make the yeet a no-yeet)


----------



## mewtini

she claimed before jack though didn’t she


----------



## mewtini

actually i guess that doesn’t fully matter


----------



## Novae

Keldeo said:


> Mist1422 said:
> 
> 
> 
> what’s the case on butterfree tbh? emmy feels like I would expect her wolf meta to be and I do have wolf meta on bfree though I’d need to double-check
> 
> 
> 
> aiui, her claimed role (one-shot to say a phrase in the thread, yeetee becomes yeetproof so the yeet becomes a no-yeet) seems to be quite similar to Jack's claimed role (one-shot to PM VM during twilight and make the yeet a no-yeet)
Click to expand...

I would probably wait to resolve this until tomorrow and I think emmy is definitely a hit


----------



## JackPK

mewtini said:


> she claimed before jack though didn’t she


she claimed a vaguer version before me and then, after I claimed, she revised/clarified her claim with more details that look closer to mine


----------



## Novae

and by definitely I mean 100% * the mist variable which equals out to approximately 27% confidence, with 0 being null


----------



## M&F

mewtini said:


> why?


claim is more suspect; basically voluntary inactivity; little contribution even when she did come back; and y'know, if we're talking bfree scum meta, last time we played together she got me mislynched with basically the exact same vague argument


----------



## M&F

I accidentally posted this unfinished



MampersandF said:


> last time we played together she got me mislynched with basically the exact same vague argument


as the one used on her push on me until I claimed. call it an OMGUS or whatever, but you'd think town!bfree would understand how I play just fine

aaaaand lastly, I don't but that she's not suspicious of Jack's claim at all. it just feels like she wanted to avoid causing it to come down to him vs her, which would be better odds of scum being lynched toDay than otherwise


----------



## mewtini

hhhh
i kind of want to resolve emmy and lynch between jack/bfree tomorrow with more time to talk to them


----------



## mewtini

the thing about bfree not sussing jack’s claim harder also bothers me though


----------



## Keldeo

I am so pocketed by Jack using pretty colors in his first reads list, and also I think his claim makes sense. I know storm is telling the truth at least about having some way to get flavor. 

*IndigoEmmy* tbh. glgl.


----------



## mewtini

glglgl :’)


----------



## Keldeo

Mist1422 said:


> Keldeo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mist1422 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Keldeo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mist, what inspired you to ask the questions that you did when you did?
> 
> 
> 
> n0 was because of the ultracool flip situation in cats
> n1 was because I wanted to know exactly how close to loss we were
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Close to loss after yeeting mafia day 1?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> /shrug
Click to expand...

This is still weird to me re: Mist, but I'm papering it over for no real reason.


----------



## Vipera Magnifica

*The day phase has now ended. Vote totals will be posted shortly.*


----------



## Keldeo




----------



## M&F

welp, it's in the hands of destiny now

may the cards fall in our favor


----------



## M&F

if bfree was mafia tho I'm going to haunt you people


----------



## Vipera Magnifica

Vote Totals:
*IndigoEmmy* (5) (Mist1422, JackPK, Zero Moment, mewtini, Keldeo)
*Butterfree *(1) (M&F)
*(abstain) *(1) (Mr. Ultracool)



Spoiler: Vote History



kyeugh votes Herbe (#462)
M&F votes mewtini (#464)
RedneckPhoenix votes Stryke (#469)
Stryke votes RedneckPhoenix (#495)
Mr. Ultracool votes RedneckPhoenix (#507)
RedneckPhoenix votes for Herbe (#552)
Stryke unvotes (#558)
*Mist1422 votes IndigoEmmy (#584)*
Herbe votes Stryke (#607)
kyeugh votes RedneckPhoenix (#629)
M&F votes RedneckPhoenix (#634)
JackPK votes RedneckPhoenix (#683)
*Mr. Ultracool votes abstain (#710)*
M&F votes Butterfree (#749)
Butterfree votes M&F (#769)
Butterfree unvotes (#770)
Keldeo votes IndigoEmmy (#798)
M&F votes IndigoEmmy (#801)
mewtini votes IndigoEmmy (#822)
*JackPK votes IndigoEmmy (#826)*
mewtini unvotes (#830)
*Zero Moment votes IndigoEmmy (#849)
M&F votes for Butterfree (#852)*
Keldeo votes Butterfree (#860)
*mewtini votes IndigoEmmy (#864)
Keldeo votes IndigoEmmy (#876)*



If any votes are wrong or missing, you have *10 minutes *to alert me to them.


----------



## Vipera Magnifica

As all hell broke loose on the streets of Mondeville, a mob of Arcanites surrounded a young woman who they suspected of treason. As their knives descended, the woman's cries for help quickly came to an end.

Vicar Merato saw the scene unfold in slow motion, almost as if time itself had stopped. "No!" he cried out as the town guards ushered him to safety. "Stop this! Oh, serpent have mercy, _what in the world have you done?_"

*IndigoEmmy is dead. She was not mafia. 

Night Two has started. Please send in your night actions. Day Three will begin July 11th at 4PM EDT (UTC-4:00).*




Spoiler: Player List



@mewtini
@M&F
@IndigoEmmy
@Herbe
@Stryke
@JackPK
@Keldeo
@rari_teh
@kokorico
@Mist1422
@storm
@Butterfree
@Mr. Ultracool
@RedneckPhoenix
@kyeugh
@Seshas
@Trebek
@Zero Moment





Spoiler: Game Summary



*N0
rari_teh* was killed. She was *not mafia*.

*D1
Trebek* was killed. He was *mafia*.

*N1
Seshas *was killed. They were *not mafia*.
*kokorico *was killed. E was *not mafia*.

*D2
Herbe *was killed. He was *not mafia*.
*RedneckPhoenix *was killed. He was *mafia*.
*kyeugh* was killed. She was *not mafia*. 
*IndigoEmmy *was killed. She was *not mafia*.


----------



## M&F




----------



## Vipera Magnifica

*Part Three: The Reaper's Wake*





"Yesterday may have been the darkest day in our town's proud history, but I swear to you, here and now, the light of justice _will _usher in a new dawn." Lady Myranda announced from the podium. "Were it not for the interference of terrorists and _outsiders_... the gods would have surely seen fit that the culprits were revealed."

In the town square of Mondeville, the crowd of Arcanites had gathered, their numbers noticeably smaller than yesterday. The town watch was out in full force, and had formed a ring around the perimeter to keep an eye on any suspicious individuals. Vicar Merato sat on the raised platform next to several other political and religious leaders. As he leaned forward to rest his arms on the bench, he looked out into the crowd and spied his attendant. _There's Dod. I'm surprised his family made it out here today. Any sane person would have stayed at home after that bloodbath._

"...and with yet another tragic loss in our community, we can spare no time in seeking out and eliminating these vile criminals." the woman continued. "Vicar Merato, if you would please begin the proceedings."

The vicar took a deep swig of his wine and rose from his seat. "Thank you, Lady Myranda." he called out, raising a set of cards above his head for all to see. "Now... let us start with a reading."

*M&F is dead. She was not mafia.

You may now post and discuss who to lynch today. Day Three will end July 13th at 4PM EDT (UTC-4:00). *




Spoiler: Player List



@mewtini
@M&F
@IndigoEmmy
@Herbe
@Stryke
@JackPK
@Keldeo
@rari_teh
@kokorico
@Mist1422
@storm
@Butterfree
@Mr. Ultracool
@RedneckPhoenix
@kyeugh
@Seshas
@Trebek
@Zero Moment





Spoiler: Game Summary



*N0
rari_teh* was killed. She was *not mafia*.

*D1
Trebek* was killed. He was *mafia*.

*N1
Seshas *was killed. They were *not mafia*.
*kokorico *was killed. E was *not mafia*.

*D2
Herbe *was killed. He was *not mafia*.
*RedneckPhoenix *was killed. He was *mafia*.
*kyeugh* was killed. She was *not mafia*.
*IndigoEmmy *was killed. She was *not mafia*.

*N2
M&F* was killed. She was *not mafia*.


----------



## JackPK

well fuck :(


----------



## mewtini

i healed MF :’D


----------



## Keldeo

Mampersand F to pay respects. It's a tough situation, but we can do this!

Mechanical stuff -

@storm, what did you do last night?

@Mist1422, what did you ask last night? Where are you thinking about going now that Emmy flipped town?

@Stryke, I forgot to ask yesterday, can you repeat all the results you've gotten so far? If you said what you got on night 1, I don't remember.

@Zero Moment, I'm confused about how your role works. Could you try to explain more?

Did anyone get an item?


----------



## Keldeo

mewtini said:


> i healed MF :’D


Weirdness tbh. This would indicate to me that if mewtini's town, mafia might have lucked(?) into blocking her n1 when she healed Seshas, then blocked her again tonight to stop MF from being able to get another check. But if that's the case about n1, I couldn't have simultaneously been blocked from getting an item from Mr. Ultracool, unless like, koko was exactly a jailer and targeted me, or something.


----------



## JackPK

If my spreadsheet is correct, the only people claiming roles that could even get items (if Ultracool's role works the way he says it does) are @storm @mewtini and @Keldeo. Did any of you get items? (I know Keldeo you've said you didn't get one in a previous night when you tried, but did you try again? It's unclear to me whether your inability to get one before was due to blocking/etc or some side effect of your own role)

Another question I'm wondering while looking at the spreadsheet, Keldeo, is the "another ability" you mention in #799 still something you think is not useful to claim at this point?


----------



## storm

ohhhh this really isn't looking good 

given the massclaim, I did decide to visit ultracool in case I got an item that could be useful today?? but while I got confirmation of his arcana, I didn't receive anything....

does that mean no one has confirmation of his role, really?


----------



## mewtini

i didn’t

my working theory right now is a bypass or something n1 to kick seshas down, because i think having blocked me would have been kind of dumb luck


----------



## Keldeo

No, I didn't get an item last night either. Hum.

storm/Mr. Ultracool aren't mafia partners, because if they were, storm would have just claimed to have gotten like a doublevote or something. 

I guess I could claim my other ability but maybe later today.


----------



## Butterfree

I cannot fucking believe I forgot about EoD again yesterday put me in mafia jail


----------



## Keldeo

*send Butterfree to the Cats (2019) time-out room*


----------



## storm

just to make sure, have we had any confirmed items from him at all?


----------



## Butterfree

I think Occam’s razor is Ultracool and Keldeo are just mafia together and there are no items?


----------



## Keldeo

Butterfree said:


> I think Occam’s razor is Ultracool and Keldeo are just mafia together and there are no items?


So then why would I have claimed to not have received anything from him last night or the night before?


----------



## Keldeo

Just checking my math - if Mist's information is right, there were 10 town at the start of night 1. If all 6 people who flipped "not mafia" after that were town, then, there'd be 4 town / 5 non-town alive right now.

So it has to be that there is a third party alive right now (and so there are probably 4 town, 4 mafia, and this third party), or one of the people who flipped "not mafia" was a third party (and so there are 5 town and 4 mafia). Otherwise, mafia would already have won, right?


----------



## Keldeo

Keldeo said:


> Just checking my math - if Mist's information is right, there were 10 town at the start of night 1. If all 6 people who flipped "not mafia" after that were town, then, there'd be 4 town / 5 non-town alive right now.
> 
> So it has to be that there is a third party alive right now (and so there are probably 4 town, 4 mafia, and this third party), or one of the people who flipped "not mafia" was a third party (and so there are 5 town and 4 mafia). Otherwise, mafia would already have won, right?


I think the only useful thing in this is that mafia would have known, by their starting numbers, that there existed non-ingroup non-town, and therefore they knew that a town Mist would have been telling the truth.


----------



## Mr. Ultracool

Keldeo said:


> Otherwise, mafia would already have won, right?


Not if the Misslynches could be prevented, due to there being a possibility of town gaining the upper hand once more


----------



## JackPK

Keldeo said:


> Just checking my math - if Mist's information is right, there were 10 town at the start of night 1. If all 6 people who flipped "not mafia" after that were town, then, there'd be 4 town / 5 non-town alive right now.
> 
> So it has to be that there is a third party alive right now (and so there are probably 4 town, 4 mafia, and this third party), or one of the people who flipped "not mafia" was a third party (and so there are 5 town and 4 mafia). Otherwise, mafia would already have won, right?


So that makes today definitely either LyLo or MyLo, right?


----------



## Novae

There are items and a townie does give them out so that lends a lot of credit to ultracool


----------



## JackPK

Mr. Ultracool said:


> Keldeo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Otherwise, mafia would already have won, right?
> 
> 
> 
> Not if the Misslynches could be prevented, due to there being a possibility of town gaining the upper hand once more
Click to expand...

I think preventing the misyeet doesn't give town the upper hand, if I'm thinking through it correctly? Like, it prevents town from losing as much ground, but mafia would still get a nightkill before town has another chance to yeet correctly, so we'd be down 1 person instead of being down 2 people, which helps us survive but doesn't get us any closer to winning


----------



## Novae

I think UC was probably like blocked or something and couldn’t give items


----------



## Keldeo

Yeah, there would just be no way for town to ever kill mafia if there were 5 mafia and 4 town alive, because the vig is dead.

I feel like if Mist were mafia (even regardless of UC's alignment, though especially so if UC is town) she would just give a fake answer about items not existing and let him and me die. 



Mist1422 said:


> I think UC was probably like blocked or something and couldn’t give items


How do you think this interacts with mewtini apparently getting blocked? Like, multiple blocking roles? A multi-use strongman in a game this tight seems to kind of defeat the point of a doctor. I could see like, a jailing role worded as other actions not visiting him, rather than other actions having no effect, too. It's possible that speculating on this isn't useful.


----------



## storm

ughhhh this is confusing


----------



## Keldeo

Mist, actually, do you think there could be any chance of like, rari being that town item giver, and UC somehow getting their role...? Like how much % would you give UC to be town after having that answer? I do think Wheel of Fortune as a flavor makes a good amount of sense with that claim.


I think it would be useful to hear everyone's strongest reads, i.e. who people think the mafia team is either via direct scumreads or process of elimination.

I haven't done a lot of rereading, I'll try to find the time tomorrow. I'm still a little conflicted about mewtini but I'm gonna go with she wouldn't bus kind of ruthlessly d1 and then give a mechanically conflicting claim, and I feel moderately strongly about Mist and therefore UC. That leaves some subset of [Jack, storm, Stryke, ZM, Butterfree] in no order, though I feel like there are some points in favor of everyone in that group.


----------



## Keldeo

storm said:


> ughhhh this is confusing


Yeah tbh :( 

Are you confused about something specific? Do you think "thinking on the page" about things might help?


----------



## Keldeo

Mist1422 said:


> There are items and a townie does give them out so that lends a lot of credit to ultracool


I'd particularly appreciate hearing any reads you have.

I'll stop spamming the thread now, sorry.


----------



## Novae

I think there’s probably like 85+% UC is town after that theory

I did actually consider that but I think it’s incredibly unlikely


----------



## Stryke

Keldeo said:


> @Stryke, I forgot to ask yesterday, can you repeat all the results you've gotten so far? If you said what you got on night 1, I don't remember.


No one targeted me N0 or N1. You targeted me last night though


----------



## storm

well it might be a wild goose chase at this point tbh but the lack of items really throws me off? ultracool wasn't lying about his arcana, and the item giving role is the kind of thing that should be easy to verify, so sticking to it after several visits that didn't produce items implies it's the truth, to me?? but then someone blocking his role several times seems to be a risky and kind of pointless move, so... Why No Items

and if someone is blocking him then how come mewtini's heal didn't go through? I guess the only assumption I can take from this is that there's a lie in there but I don't really want to think either of them are lying??


----------



## storm

basically just!! coming to terms with the fact that whatever has led events to where we're at now involves deliberate misinformation and tactical thinking and aaaaaaaaaaa ))))):

this is. the first more intense day phase focused mafia game I've been a part of and also 100% the first where I made it this far without dying so. it's a whole lot rn


----------



## Keldeo

Okay, thank you, storm. Why don't you want to think either Mr. Ultracool or mewtini is lying?



Stryke said:


> Keldeo said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Stryke, I forgot to ask yesterday, can you repeat all the results you've gotten so far? If you said what you got on night 1, I don't remember.
> 
> 
> 
> No one targeted me N0 or N1. You targeted me last night though
Click to expand...

Huh okay. Pretty sure Stryke does have access to some sort of self-watching ability then.

To be clear, I used my item thief ability on Stryke last night, not Mr. Ultracool, but was trying to imply that I visited Mr. Ultracool to reaction test Stryke.


----------



## Stryke

A thought on Mr. UC: in a weird way, I kind of think the fact that no one's gotten any items from him makes him a bit more trustworthy? Like, if maf!UC were claiming this, he could easily alert his fellow mafioso so that he could have one of them claim they got an item. But no one's gotten one yet, and I have to think maf!UC would realize that people might catch on if he claimed an item role and had no one get an item, or claim to get one.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if maf!UC claimed an item role, he probably would've brought his fellow mafs into the act as well, so the fact that no one's gotten anything yet brings on way more suspicion than I think a wolf would try to attract.


----------



## storm

mewtini has seemed pretty talkative and helpful this whole time and like. ngl, a lot of the more indepth mechanics and speculation are hard to follow for me at this point, so I've been taking cues from her posts a lot,,, if she were lying that'd cast a lot of the assumptions I've been working with in doubt, and also seems like it'd be pretty awful for town?

with ultracool I just... can't personally see the sense in lying when he's had a whole lot of attention on him and his role this whole time! he's seemed pretty open with what he knows about it earlier too so. I guess I implicitly want to trust him for that?

(but this is also an extension of not really wanting anyone here to be lying even tho I realize at this point that kind of has to be the case)


----------



## JackPK

Bouncing back and forth between this and work, so I don't have a ton of time to devote to it, but I want to get a rough set of reads out before I open the ACNH thread and have to juggle it as well:

*me*
me

*if they're scum, then my entire process of elimination falls apart bc I'm basing it on their info*
Mist

*I'm liking them, they seem plausible based on what we know so far*
Ultracool - based entirely on Mist's info today and the assumption that item dispenser is a town role; I really hope I'm right and item dispenser isn't a mafia role lmaooooo
mewt - nice tone, helpful, I believe her actionclaims, and I don't think mafia would lie, leave loose ends in their lie, and then point out the loose ends in their lie right out of the gate before anyone else noticed them

*hmmmmm I need more time to think about these and sort them*
Stryke - confirmation of his claim hinges on Keldeo (i.e. they might be w/w)
Keldeo - isn't necessarily cleared by Mist's conf that items exist; might have simply opportunistically claimed an item-related role in hopes of flying under the radar when we started believing Ultracool
storm - could be town!flavorcop or scum!flavorcop, but probably not lying about being a flavorcop bc they accurately guessed Mist's arcana. I want to believe in them bc tone and sympathy with being overwhelmed, but I have no clue tbh

*the more I overthink, the less confident I am*
Butterfree

*I fundamentally do not believe an "innocent child" claim without the mechconf that is supposed to be inherent to the role*
Zero Moment - but will rise to the top of my list _if _mechconf happens

If we really do have 4 town 5 nontown left, then eek that means I'm probably looking at [Stryke/Keldeo/storm/Butterfree/ZM] as being nontown by process of elimination? worst case maybe like 4 nontown out of 5?

I have no idea how to even attempt to suss out the difference between mafia and 3p among that group, which is unfortunate since yeeting mafia at this point is way more valuable than yeeting 3p if I understand the math correctly


----------



## JackPK

I am tentatively going to park my vote on *Zero Moment* for now in hopes that, if he is really innocent child, it pressures him to actually activate the mech part of the role so we can at least confirm one townie for sure


----------



## Mr. Ultracool

JackPK said:


> I am tentatively going to park my vote on *Zero Moment* for now in hopes that, if he is really innocent child, it pressures him to actually activate the mech part of the role so we can at least confirm one townie for sure


That honestly sounds like a very reasonable thought process - @*Zero Moment* , can you tell how your Mechclear would be visble to us?


----------



## Zero Moment

*  \ | /
 — O —
    / | \

   \[T]/
    []
     ] [*


----------



## Zero Moment

fuck why did the formatting get messed up like that


----------



## Zero Moment

it looked so good too


----------



## Vipera Magnifica

*Zero Moment is not mafia.*


----------



## JackPK

*Unvote.*


----------



## JackPK

Fuck, though, that means I have at least one non-town sitting somewhere in my likes list :/


----------



## Novae

JackPK said:


> Fuck, though, that means I have at least one non-town sitting somewhere in my likes list :/


not really, one of the five non-scum that flipped not n0 could be a 3p


----------



## Mr. Ultracool

JackPK said:


> *Unvote.*


*Unvote*


----------



## JackPK

Mist1422 said:


> JackPK said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fuck, though, that means I have at least one non-town sitting somewhere in my likes list :/
> 
> 
> 
> not really, one of the five non-scum that flipped not n0 could be a 3p
Click to expand...

oh I was counting 3p among "non-town"


----------



## Butterfree

Pondering arcana. It's worth considering whether the mafia would consist of arcana that might flavorwise fit the bill for being evil, as in Cats (2019), or do we think they're entirely randomly assigned? In the former case, I think we should be suspicious of the flavorcop, because the mafia would probably _need_ flavor fakeclaims, and a flavor cop would be a mechanical way for them to learn some (if they then kill the person); in the latter, we should expect roles to not necessarily line up with the assigned arcana.

I think the evidence we have so far seems to point towards the former:

- Trebek, our flipped mafia, claimed to be the Devil. Obviously we can't know if this is true, but it would've been a risk for him to lie about the arcana and expose himself to a counterclaim, so it seems not all too unlikely that this was his real arcana - and it's pretty evil-sounding.
- RNP, our other dead scum, was the Tower. That doesn't by itself _sound_ that evil but Googling suggests that in Tarot it's an omen of disaster. So that's two for two on scum having 'evil' arcana.
- The active claims that we have for living players _right now_, by contrast, are all innocuous-sounding arcana: the Hermit, the Emperor, the Fool, the High Priestess, the Magician, Justice, Wheel of Fortune, and the Sun (I couldn't find an arcana claim for Stryke, just a role claim; did I miss it?). M&F was the Moon. I can't quite remember if other dead people had revealed arcana, but I'm pretty sure nobody else has claimed ominous arcana. All in all it seems like an unlikely coincidence for the only two ominous arcana in the game to be exactly the scum that happen to be dead right now.
- Moreover, most arcana claims are pretty clearly thematically connected to their roles. The High Priestess being an oracle? Well, yeah. Justice affecting lynches pretty obviously checks out. Wheel of Fortune giving out items, _yeah_. Emperor as governor, makes sense.
- THUS: probably some players have ominous arcana but have fakeclaimed other arcana (presumably because they are scum).

The odd claims out are probably Keldeo's (the Fool as item thief) and storm's (the Magician as flavorcop), neither of which seem obviously related to the arcana at all (I can see the Hermit as a doctor, just about). But that's probably not very ironclad.

I'd like to do a bit of ISOing but I think this is definitely a lead.


----------



## Butterfree

(Note that although I pointed to claims that don't quite match their arcana, obviously it'd be entirely possible for a mafia member to fakeclaim a role/arcana combination that just sounds like it makes sense.)

Wild guess pre-ISO scumteam, based on associations and backed-up claims: Keldeo/storm/Ultracool/Mist?


----------



## mewtini

bfree where are you at on your claim coexisting with jack's?
sorry if this has already gotten brought up, i have pretty much checked out of this game and into acnh lmfao


----------



## Stryke

Oh oops, thought I already flavorclaimed
I'm Temperance


----------



## Butterfree

It's pretty weird, _but_ the fact I claimed first and then Jack makes it harder for me to think he's lying than the other way around? Like, he could have just _not_ counterclaimed me. It wouldn't have been too hard to build a case on me without doing so, I think, if that's what they were going for? And Jack hasn't been _that_ aggressive in going after me for it either, like he's kind of willing to believe maybe we do just coexist?

I do admit that with our roles being closer than I originally thought it _is_ kind of weird both would exist in the same game. Originally when he claimed I figured well, our roles are fairly different in function even if we can both prevent a lynch, so maybe that's reasonable. But it seems that actually the only difference is that I can prevent a lynch _before_ the vote is agreed on and he can prevent it _after_ it, and that really is a funny combination to have, especially on the same side. (Which is frustrating for me, because if we were different alignments and both telling the truth about our roles, my variant absolutely sounds more like it would be the mafia-aligned one! Mafia being able to invisibly stop a lynch after the vote would be kind of OP, but mafia being able to discreetly lynchproof a mafia member but at the cost of having to publicly defend them in the thread - I'm not going to say my actual trigger phrase in case it counts and wastes it, but it's just a phrase similar to "Let's not lynch [the person I want to lynchproof]"  - would totally be a fun and interesting mafia role. I wish I _were_ mafia with this role.)

I gueeeess if I think about it I _can_ imagine a mafia motivation for Jack to play it like this. Like, he doesn't want to get lynched himself, so he figured he'd gamble on doing only a _partial_ counterclaim, so that if the thread seems to believe him more than me he can press it harder, and if the thread believes me more than him he can kind of shrug it off and minimize it. It's also a comparatively safe way to fakeclaim - you _know_ you won't get a townie suddenly counterclaiming you if you're the one counterclaiming a townie. So hmm, yeah, maybe. But I've felt good about Jack overall over the course of the game so he's not where I really want to look first.


----------



## storm

honestly I agree that my arcana and role don't really go too well together?? apparently the ingenuity of the magician is what lets me find out arcana but it does feel very tenuous

(rnp as the tower was inspired and I'm in awe)


----------



## Keldeo

Oh, I guess I should probably claim fully atp. My dog steals items, and being The Fool is more closely related to my other/primary role: I can follow my heart, be a free spirit, and leave the game (i.e. cause my own death) by posting a certain phrase in the thread. Apparently this is helpful because if I'm a leading wagon it essentially gives town a double yeet at the cost of one of them (me) being town. But obviously I'm never going to be using this now. 



Keldeo said:


> smh I quit


This was my soft, since the role is called Quitter on the MafiaScum wiki.

MF being the moon / cop indicate to me that magician / flavor cop probably is also probably plausible as a combination? I dunno.

I'm really lost and don't really feel like playing mafia until probably tonight, sorry.


----------



## Butterfree

Keldeo said:


> This was my soft, since the role is called Quitter on the MafiaScum wiki.


Okay this is really giving me flashbacks to Cats (2019) mafia where mafia!Keldeo also claimed to have softed a role because he said something completely innocuous that there's no reason to think wasn't simply a coincidence.

Why do you get to have a dog? Why would this be a thing? Is the Fool somehow associated with dogs? This almost sounds too fake to be fake.


----------



## Keldeo

Butterfree said:


> Keldeo said:
> 
> 
> 
> This was my soft, since the role is called Quitter on the MafiaScum wiki.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay this is really giving me flashbacks to Cats (2019) mafia where mafia!Keldeo also claimed to have softed a role because he said something completely innocuous that there's no reason to think wasn't simply a coincidence.
> 
> Why do you get to have a dog? Why would this be a thing? Is the Fool somehow associated with dogs? This almost sounds too fake to be fake.
Click to expand...

Haha, I knew someone would bring that up. I probably should have been a bit more obvious about it, but that was literally my first post.

Many portrayals of the fool tarot card, including the well-known Rider-Waite deck and presumably the deck from which my PM image was taken, have a small dog.


----------



## Keldeo

I don't know why I said presumably, the image does indeed have a small dog.

To give context to my level of empty-headedness right now I actually could not remember whether I had already claimed and had to ISO myself to check. So I'm going to come back to the thread when I feel I can be more productive.


----------



## Butterfree

Oh, hmm. I guess, but it still feels kind of weird to just give you two abilities, especially when if anything I'd have expected the item thief to be the primary one in that combination (after all, you'd spend most of the game using that power?).

It also occurs to me as I ISO Keldeo that while he has been casting doubt on Ultracool's claim in a way that should make it _extremely_ unlikely Ultracool is telling the truth from his POV, he hasn't actually been pushing for his execution. He tried to use his saying he didn't receive an item from Ultracool as a reason why they couldn't be mafia together, yet doesn't actually seem very convinced Ultracool is mafia. I admit I'm not sure I'm 100% up-to-date on what he's actually claiming now, since he ended up saying he'd actually targeted Stryke and not Ultracool; is your claim that you targeted Ultracool N0 and Stryke N1?


----------



## Keldeo

Yeah - I targeted ZM n0, UC n1, and Stryke n2.

Butterfree, I'm asking this without any... implications, I guess? - why should it have been unlikely to me that Mr. Ultracool was telling the truth? iirc, the two situations that I laid out were either I got roleblocked on night 1 or otherwise stopped from visiting him, which seemed like a distinct possibility, or he was just lying. It always just seemed like the smarter move to wait until someone could/would confirm it, particularly because I thought that Trebek's posting looked fairly good for him. 

Now that hasn't happened, but also Mist's claim about an item giver exists. I guess now the three situations I'm looking at are like... Mist v/UC v (based on Mist's claim); Mist v/UC w (where maybe UC rolecopped rari or something, then claimed their role?); and Mist w/UC w (where Mist is defending their partner to push through someone else. I know I cleared Mist earlier for not just saying that there weren't items in the game or something, but now I feel a little wary about it because they haven't been around that much.) I don't think Mist w/UC v makes a ton of sense here because I think Mist would just push UC. This is where "v" means just "not mafia", i.e. could also be third party. 

I guess this might be how I would treat UC if he were my mafia partner? idk. I just don't see why I wouldn't buttress his claim and continue to hard defend him tbh. If he's mafia, I'd think his partners have claimed non-targeting abilities, to Stryke's point about no one supporting his claim in that way.


----------



## Keldeo

Keldeo said:


> I thought that Trebek's posting looked fairly good for him.


* I think he's not, in fact, a mafia who kills people who visit him, so I'm not taking this into as much consideration now.


----------



## Butterfree

Keldeo said:


> iirc, the two situations that I laid out were either I got roleblocked on night 1 or otherwise stopped from visiting him, which seemed like a distinct possibility, or he was just lying.


What was specifically pinging me was the way that you claimed to have targeted Ultracool _again_, and that oh hmm if mewtini got blocked that's weird because that means Ultracool can't also have been blocked, without actually going from there to "wait, this means Ultracool is _almost definitely lying_". But I guess actually your claim is you never visited Ultracool N1 in the first place so your entire post about how this is extra weird was just you trying to keep up the theater until you got an answer out of Stryke?


----------



## Butterfree

Keldeo said:


> If he's mafia, I'd think his partners have claimed non-targeting abilities, to Stryke's point about no one supporting his claim in that way.


I guess, but in that case Ultracool is basically just an item-generating machine for the mafia (because they'd know from the start that they can target him for items) which strikes me as a pretty weird mechanic? Unless it's like, outgroup Ultracool who wants the mafia to target him and therefore claimed publicly D1.


----------



## Keldeo

Butterfree said:


> Keldeo said:
> 
> 
> 
> iirc, the two situations that I laid out were either I got roleblocked on night 1 or otherwise stopped from visiting him, which seemed like a distinct possibility, or he was just lying.
> 
> 
> 
> What was specifically pinging me was the way that you claimed to have targeted Ultracool _again_, and that oh hmm if mewtini got blocked that's weird because that means Ultracool can't also have been blocked, without actually going from there to "wait, this means Ultracool is _almost definitely lying_". But I guess actually your claim is you never visited Ultracool N1 in the first place so your entire post about how this is extra weird was just you trying to keep up the theater until you got an answer out of Stryke?
Click to expand...

If you're talking about the posts at SOD toDay, yeah, I was trying to keep up the theater. I visited Ultracool n1 (two nights ago) and visited Stryke n2 (last night). The quote refers to situations I believe I laid out yesterDay (day 2). 

I still have no idea what happened night 1. I guess one simple solution would be just Ultracool is lying (and the mafia got a lucky break blocking mewtini or used a strongman), and another would be the mafia using a strongman and I was blocked (with the roleblocker targeting mewtini n2 to prevent her from healing MF). However, the latter wouldn't resolve storm's claim that they didn't receive anything from him, which I think anti-aligns storm and UC.


----------



## Keldeo

Bluh, sorry. Will be back before deadline. 

@Zero Moment @mewtini If either of you places a vote I'll follow it. Otherwise I'm on Butterfree I think. Trusting MF and also opportunistic stuff.


----------



## Keldeo

That's badly phrased, sorry. I don't know. I mean if clearing (ZM and) mewt is correct I have maybe a 2/3 chance to be right anyway.

I don't know really what team Butterfree would be on. I was wondering about Jack/Butterfree w/w where they planned to have similar roles they'll counterclaim. It seems kind of weird, though. So it'd be like Butterfree/[three of Stryke/storm/Jack/Mist]?

Non-Butterfree teams, uh, I think Ultracool/Mist/Stryke/x could be possible based on Mist and Stryke defending... where x I think has to be Jack because I really do feel like storm and Butterfree would both defend him rather than do what they have been. 

Reasons Ultracool could be town:
- Mist claims town item giver is a thing, I also think town item giver has to be a thing because of my role, and Wheel of Fortune makes sense
- there's like one team that works with him unless one of my clears is wrong or there's some weird bussing going on
- early claim is risky, leads to weirdness if the role is not proven (this is probably a self-defeating reason because, well, now there is a lack of proof and I'm still looking at this reason)

Reasons Ultracool could be mafia:
- no proof of his role, no one got items (visited by me n1, storm n2) 
- little / shade-y posting
- Trebek encouraged TRing him but not visiting, could make sense in a goon UC world


----------



## Keldeo

@JackPK random question, sorry if you already answered, could you use your governor ability to stop the yeet on yourself if you were the leading wagon?


----------



## storm

my new meds are kicking my ass so uh. I will try to follow this thread but if I end up sleeping through end of day, sorry in advance!!!


----------



## Butterfree

If town item giver is a thing, and your claim of item thief is true, then there are literally only a couple of town players in the game that could even in theory get these items that two separate roles are built around. I just don’t think that makes a lot of sense? Like, maybe this is just a total troll game, but it really seems weird to design it like that. Add the fact multiple people have targeted Ultracool and still no items have shown up, and this just seems like a really elaborate house of cards with zero actual evidence for any of it.

That does open the question of, y’know, what would the mafia’s goal be in doing... any of this. Why have this whole scheme of claims about items backing each other up except they themselves undermine it by saying they didn’t get any items from Ultracool. And that legitimately is pretty weird and my theories on the reason involve a bunch of WIFOM, I admit. Part of it is just I think the mafia doing this sort of scheme to confuse people and appear to disassociate each other would be really fun; I’ll just be kind of disappointed if this item stuff was actually legit and the mafia have just kind of been flying under the radar.


----------



## Butterfree

Ha ha house of TAROT cards


----------



## Vipera Magnifica

*5 hours remain in the day phase.*



Spoiler: Vote History



JackPK votes Zero Moment (#920)
Mr. Ultracool votes Zero Moment (#921)
JackPK unvotes (#926)
Mr. Ultracool unvotes (#929)


----------



## Keldeo

My vote for *Butterfree* to get sent to Cats jail was real lol

I'm kermitflailing.gif and have no confidence in anything but if her power is real and she is mafia, she would be able to save any partner but herself... I think? Although so would Jack, so it's possible that is moot. :|

Would be great to get more votes on the board here, otherwise mafia could just vote anyone right at EOD and force the yeet onto a town.


----------



## Keldeo

i.e. if you're here, hi, please vote! Even if it's for me! 

It would be funny ("funny") if I was top wagon at EOD, left the game, and ended up singlehandedly and directly causing town's loss tbh.


----------



## Stryke

*Butterfree* ig


----------



## Mr. Ultracool

Keldeo said:


> Would be great to get more votes on the board here, otherwise mafia could just vote anyone right at EOD and force the yeet onto a town.


In the interest of preventing that, I'll

*abstain*

for now.


----------



## JackPK

Keldeo said:


> @JackPK random question, sorry if you already answered, could you use your governor ability to stop the yeet on yourself if you were the leading wagon?


It wasn't specified one way or the other in my initial role PM, so I had assumed I could, but then I asked VM and he clarified I can't.

Oof I am so confused today. I think Keldeo and Butterfree are my most suspicious reads at the moment, _but_ they are probably not w/w because if they were, they would presumably prefer to cast aspersions on a townie rather than do a bunch of wolf theater right before deadline and risk accidentally forming w/w wagons?

I really don't know who looks better/worse to me and I need to ISO in the next two hours before deadline. Per Keldeo's logic going into EOD yesterday, I'd think I'd rather we try to build up a single wagon rather than competing ones (so mafia can't suddenly throw the vote to the other wagon at the last minute), so since the wagon so far is *Butterfree* I'll place my vote there too for now pending my ISOs.


----------



## JackPK

Mr. Ultracool said:


> Keldeo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Would be great to get more votes on the board here, otherwise mafia could just vote anyone right at EOD and force the yeet onto a town.
> 
> 
> 
> In the interest of preventing that, I'll
> 
> *abstain*
> 
> for now.
Click to expand...

I don't think abstaining helps us at this point! Based on the numbers Mist has oracle'd for us, our best guess is that we're either in LyLo or MyLo right now, so abstaining might automatically throw the game to the mafia


----------



## Keldeo

Is "cat jail" just, like, a cardboard box?


----------



## Keldeo

Oh those posts didn't load.

Hrmmm.

Butterfree (3) - Keldeo, Stryke, Jack
abstain (1) - Mr. U
not voting (5) - storm, mewtini, Zero Moment, Mist1422, Butterfree


----------



## Butterfree

Ugh, I've been rereading D1 and Ultracool's entrance still just sounds so sincere. Damn it stop knocking over my house of cards >:/

On the other hand, I just got to Trebek defending Jack pretty hard in #210, so with that and the admittedly weird role conflict, I guess fine, I'm going to park on *JackPK* for now.


----------



## Butterfree

If any of you have any questions for me, I expect I'll be here in the thread until EoD, for once.


----------



## Butterfree

It's occurred to me in my reading that maybe Ultracool is town but Keldeo and storm are mafia and just want to cast doubt on him by claiming to not have gotten any items?


----------



## Keldeo

(ahhh what if Butterfree is town)



Butterfree said:


> Ugh, I've been rereading D1 and Ultracool's entrance still just sounds so sincere. Damn it stop knocking over my house of cards >:/
> 
> On the other hand, I just got to Trebek defending Jack pretty hard in #210, so with that and the admittedly weird role conflict, I guess fine, I'm going to park on *JackPK* for now.


What happened to your earlier reasons for townreading him?

What team of 4 do you think is most likely atm?


----------



## Keldeo

@tbh² come vote! :D


----------



## tbh²

Keldeo said:


> @tbh² come vote! :D


omfg hahahah this was a good strat. i have not been logged into my main in a hot second. brb


----------



## Keldeo

tbh² said:


> Keldeo said:
> 
> 
> 
> @tbh² come vote! :D
> 
> 
> 
> omfg hahahah this was a good strat. i have not been logged into my main in a hot second. brb
Click to expand...

M-multi-account drifting...!


----------



## Keldeo

and while you're here could you talk to me about teams you're thinking about? I'm really lost on Mr. Ultracool... but I think I come down thinking he's town? Then I don't entirely understand Butterfree shifting off him here, unless she thinks that's the only realistic thing she can do.


----------



## mewtini

clearly i am disengaged. uhhh if it’s between bfree and uc i think *butterfree*? still reading uc as sincere, and wondering what bfree’s progression was after TRing jack for a while there


----------



## Keldeo

mewtini said:


> clearly i am disengaged. uhhh if it’s between bfree and uc i think *butterfree*? still reading uc as sincere, and wondering what bfree’s progression was after TRing jack for a while there


It's between her and Jack right now technically, which I think is a valid split given their role claims


----------



## mewtini

Keldeo said:


> and while you're here could you talk to me about teams you're thinking about? I'm really lost on Mr. Ultracool... but I think I come down thinking he's town? Then I don't entirely understand Butterfree shifting off him here, unless she thinks that's the only realistic thing she can do.


no ones confirmed anything about uc right? that’s the  moment for me but it also doesn’t seem like there are many roles that could even potentially get the item off ... i didn’t really internalize the roleblocker talk, though, and i think on tone alone i want to believe him

oh. actually i only just remembered that uc didn’t get an item to storm (which is something multi-rb implying :/) so maybe that is something.


----------



## mewtini

Keldeo said:


> mewtini said:
> 
> 
> 
> clearly i am disengaged. uhhh if it’s between bfree and uc i think *butterfree*? still reading uc as sincere, and wondering what bfree’s progression was after TRing jack for a while there
> 
> 
> 
> It's between her and Jack right now technically, which I think is a valid split given their role claims
Click to expand...

ah! misread the vote count/uc abstain


----------



## Keldeo

Yeah I feel like that makes storm ~probably mafia if UC is town, and maybe vice versa


----------



## Zero Moment

I'm p sure there's some kind of gambit going on with the UC situation, but I don't know on which side.


----------



## Keldeo

Zero Moment said:


> I'm p sure there's some kind of gambit going on with the UC situation, but I don't know on which side.


Yeahhh I think I agree. What do you mean?


----------



## Vipera Magnifica

Vote Totals:
*Butterfree *(4) (Keldeo, Stryke, JackPK, mewtini)
*JackPK *(1) (Butterfree)
*(abstain)* (1) (Mr. Ultracool)



Spoiler: Vote History



JackPK votes Zero Moment (#920)
Mr. Ultracool votes Zero Moment (#921)
JackPK unvotes (#926)
Mr. Ultracool unvotes (#929)
Keldeo votes Butterfree (#954)
Stryke votes Butterfree (#956)
Mr. Ultracool abstains (#957)
JackPK votes Butterfree (#958)
Butterfree votes JackPK (#962)
mewtini votes Butterfree (#970)


----------



## Butterfree

Keldeo said:


> (ahhh what if Butterfree is town)
> 
> 
> 
> Butterfree said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ugh, I've been rereading D1 and Ultracool's entrance still just sounds so sincere. Damn it stop knocking over my house of cards >:/
> 
> On the other hand, I just got to Trebek defending Jack pretty hard in #210, so with that and the admittedly weird role conflict, I guess fine, I'm going to park on *JackPK* for now.
> 
> 
> 
> What happened to your earlier reasons for townreading him?
> 
> What team of 4 do you think is most likely atm?
Click to expand...

I still like his posting and tone a lot; he feels relaxed and like he's really trying. But mewtini prompted me yesterday about it and in the process of writing #935 it kind of laid out for me that yeah, if our roles are _nearly_ identical that really does make it pretty weird for us to both be telling the truth, doesn't it, and I managed to think myself into a plausible motivation for playing it the way that he has. I still wasn't _really_ wanting to look at him but then I got to that Trebek post and it set off the alarm bells (and also I'd just been reading Ultracool and finding him so towny, which reduced my confidence in items-aren't-real a lot).

I really don't know what team is most likely if it's Jack.


----------



## Butterfree

I have been side-eyeing mewtini a bit, because she's quite different from her recent town games and a lot less secure in contributing, but it _may_ just be checking out for unrelated reasons.


----------



## Butterfree

And I still think Keldeo's claim feels really unconvincing. The "I quit" breadcrumb is truly just "Seer cover" 2.0, and him having a dog with an extra power because there's a dog on the card is still just pretty ???.


----------



## Keldeo

I agree she's different, but I'm willing to chalk it up to unrelated reasons because I feel like she doesn't bus Trebek and then just check out. Like she probably could win by doing the bare minimum, so she probably doesn't need to do more, but she kept actually doing things in Snom Mafia even when she had everyone pocketed.


----------



## Keldeo

I feel like storm w/UC v seems likely if Butterfree is w.


----------



## Keldeo

Mist postcount falling off is a thing, but I'm disregarding these red/yellow flags about her play because I think if she were mafia, she'd have a much more direct path to success today - for example, claiming that items do not exist in this game. I'll feel slowrolled if Mist is mafia, essentially.


----------



## Butterfree

Keldeo said:


> I feel like storm w/UC v seems likely if Butterfree is w.


I'm curious why you think me being mafia would suggest this, when I earlier suggested storm is mafia and Ultracool town.


----------



## Butterfree

Keldeo said:


> Mist postcount falling off is a thing, but I'm disregarding these red/yellow flags about her play because I think if she were mafia, she'd have a much more direct path to success today - for example, claiming that items do not exist in this game. I'll feel slowrolled if Mist is mafia, essentially.


I mean, Mist already claimed items do exist in the game, so they couldn't exactly just go never mind actually no.


----------



## Keldeo

Butterfree said:


> Keldeo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mist postcount falling off is a thing, but I'm disregarding these red/yellow flags about her play because I think if she were mafia, she'd have a much more direct path to success today - for example, claiming that items do not exist in this game. I'll feel slowrolled if Mist is mafia, essentially.
> 
> 
> 
> I mean, Mist already claimed items do exist in the game, so they couldn't exactly just go never mind actually no.
Click to expand...

Sorry, what do you mean? Am I forgetting something?


----------



## Butterfree

I'm pretty sure Mist claimed that one of their oracle questions confirmed that there are items and a town-aligned player is giving them out? Couldn't tell you where in the thread, though.


----------



## Keldeo

Butterfree said:


> Keldeo said:
> 
> 
> 
> I feel like storm w/UC v seems likely if Butterfree is w.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm curious why you think me being mafia would suggest this, when I earlier suggested storm is mafia and Ultracool town.
Click to expand...

It's more of a path from you being mafia -> Ultracool being town (probably?) -> storm being mafia (probably, because unless he was stopped somehow, they would have gotten an item visiting him last night).


----------



## Butterfree

Hrrmmmm. I'm vexed that you're all just kind of dully voting me, and probably about to lose us the game, without appearing to have much in the way of clear reasons for it, or appearing to care all that much about being right here.


----------



## Keldeo

Butterfree said:


> I'm pretty sure Mist claimed that one of their oracle questions confirmed that there are items and a town-aligned player is giving them out? Couldn't tell you where in the thread, though.


Oh, yeah, that's what I am saying. From my point of view knowing items are real, if they are mafia, they could have just said that their oracle question confirmed there are _not_ items. That would make people yeet me and/or Mr. Ultracool, which I believe leads to a win for them regardless of Mr. Ultracool's alignment.


----------



## Keldeo

Butterfree said:


> Hrrmmmm. I'm vexed that you're all just kind of dully voting me, and probably about to lose us the game, without appearing to have much in the way of clear reasons for it, or appearing to care all that much about being right here.


If you are town, I'm really sorry. I should have tried harder.


----------



## Butterfree

Trouble is, if this is because you guys are mafia, that means the town's not actually in the thread to vote anyway, which is not ideal.


----------



## Butterfree

Keldeo said:


> Butterfree said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure Mist claimed that one of their oracle questions confirmed that there are items and a town-aligned player is giving them out? Couldn't tell you where in the thread, though.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, yeah, that's what I am saying. From my point of view knowing items are real, if they are mafia, they could have just said that their oracle question confirmed there are _not_ items. That would make people yeet me and/or Mr. Ultracool, which I believe leads to a win for them regardless of Mr. Ultracool's alignment.
Click to expand...

Oh, I read the comment about Mist having a more direct path to success _today_ as meaning they could have claimed that _today_. Or was the claim about there being items today? It feels longer ago than that.


----------



## Keldeo

It was today, I'm pretty sure. Time is weird, haha.


----------



## Keldeo

It's possible that storm theoretically being able to get items from Mr. Ultracool, in the world where they're mafia and he's town, means that we should actually go for storm today, so that they can't get a double vote or gun. But I think I realized that too late to change anything.



Keldeo said:


> Butterfree said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure Mist claimed that one of their oracle questions confirmed that there are items and a town-aligned player is giving them out? Couldn't tell you where in the thread, though.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, yeah, that's what I am saying. From my point of view knowing items are real, if they are mafia, they could have just said that their oracle question confirmed there are _not_ items. That would make people yeet me and/or Mr. Ultracool, which I believe leads to a win for them regardless of Mr. Ultracool's alignment.
Click to expand...

So then Mist is town, and because there's a town item giver, Mr. Ultracool is town. ZM is town, I think Mewtini is town for unrelated reasons. Which leaves you, Jack, storm, Stryke. Which is not a team I feel super happy with, but I just don't know where I am wrong.


----------



## Keldeo

Keldeo said:


> ZM is town


Well, unless Dark Innocent Child.


----------



## Keldeo

@JackPK How are those ISOs going?



Keldeo said:


> you, Jack, storm, Stryke. Which is not a team I feel super happy with


particularly because Jack and Stryke would be bussing right now for ??? reasons


----------



## Keldeo

And there being fewer mafia than that would be... well, good because it means we're not actually in LYLO, but also confusing given Mist's earlier oracle question about the number of town left.

I'm stuck. I want to read Butterfree's posting up until the end here as genuine.


----------



## Keldeo

Keldeo said:


> So then Mist is town, and because there's a town item giver, Mr. Ultracool is town. ZM is town, I think Mewtini is town for unrelated reasons.


Butterfree, if we misyeet you and the team is like Mist/Mr. U/ZM/Mewtini, I will gladly board my train to clown town.


----------



## Keldeo

Could you post a concise legacy just in case, Butterfree? It seems like your reads have shifted from the earlier posts that could be looked at as such.


----------



## Butterfree

Okay, reading EoD1 the Trebek lynch is really just driven by Keldeo and mewtini without anyone _else_ present really suspecting him at that point and that's. A pretty weird choice if they're mafia. Maybe if Trebek had just _wanted_ to get out of the game and they went for cred as a result, but he doesn't sound like that either. :/


----------



## Butterfree

I feel good about voting Jack, though; his vote on Seshas feels very voting against the wagon on scum partner.


----------



## Keldeo

Uh, there's 7 minutes left, right?



Keldeo said:


> Could you post a concise legacy just in case, Butterfree? It seems like your reads have shifted from the earlier posts that could be looked at as such.


----------



## Butterfree

@Keldeo Is there a reason you want to be on me over Jack here?


----------



## Butterfree

I think likeliest mafia at this point is Jack, then Mist/storm/Stryke. Keldeo/mewtini look very good by EoD1, as much as Keldeo's claim is just absolutely the worst. Ultracool is so goddamn pure I wish I could believe he's mafia but he's probably not.


----------



## Keldeo

I don't know. I definitely thought the way he talked about his claim seemed legit. 

I think his EOD1 was bad, I think his pushes have been on town.  

I don't think me changing my vote now will change the votal though.


----------



## Butterfree

Does the way I talked about my claim seem _less_ legit?


----------



## Keldeo

No...? Like I would want to believe both of you. But that can't be right. 

I also am ? at him just not being here right now.


----------



## Butterfree

(I know you're not going to change anything, and are quite possibly mafia, but there's nobody else in here for me to talk to at the moment. :/)


----------



## Keldeo

screams

*JackPK*


----------



## Butterfree

I say quite possibly mafia because I think objectively by your postings here you should be on Jack right now, and being on me anyway suggests an ulterior motive, and your claim is still a giant ????. But that EoD1 nonetheless, ugh.


----------



## Butterfree

Well, okay!


----------



## Vipera Magnifica

*The day phase has now ended. Vote totals will be posted shortly.*


----------



## Vipera Magnifica

Vote Totals:
*Butterfree *(3) (Stryke, JackPK, mewtini)
*JackPK *(2) (Butterfree, Keldeo)
*(abstain)* (1) (Mr. Ultracool)



Spoiler: Vote History



JackPK votes Zero Moment (#920)
Mr. Ultracool votes Zero Moment (#921)
JackPK unvotes (#926)
Mr. Ultracool unvotes (#929)
Keldeo votes Butterfree (#954)
*Stryke votes Butterfree (#956)
Mr. Ultracool abstains (#957)
JackPK votes Butterfree (#958)
Butterfree votes JackPK (#962)
mewtini votes Butterfree (#970)
Keldeo votes JackPK (#1010)*



If any votes are wrong or missing, you have *10 minutes *to alert me to them.


----------



## Vipera Magnifica

Having communed with their gods, the people of Mondeville were confident that they had found one of the criminals terrorizing their once-peaceful town. The accused was a lawyer who continued running her mouth about how a deck of cards was not a substitute for due legal process, right up until the moment that the rope snapped taut.

Vicar Merato grimaced, eyes fixed on the body swaying from the gallows. _As much as I'd like to believe the killings will stop now, I have a very bad feeling about what's to come._

*Butterfree is dead. She was not mafia.

Night Three has started, and will end 24 hours from now at 4PM EDT (UTC-4:00) on July 14th.* *Please send in your night actions. *




Spoiler: Player List



@mewtini
@M&F
@IndigoEmmy
@Herbe
@Stryke
@JackPK
@Keldeo
@rari_teh
@kokorico
@Mist1422
@storm
@Butterfree
@Mr. Ultracool
@RedneckPhoenix
@kyeugh
@Seshas
@Trebek
@Zero Moment





Spoiler: Game Summary



*N0
rari_teh* was killed. She was *not mafia*.

*D1
Trebek* was killed. He was *mafia*.

*N1
Seshas *was killed. They were *not mafia*.
*kokorico *was killed. E was *not mafia*.

*D2
Herbe *was killed. He was *not mafia*.
*RedneckPhoenix *was killed. He was *mafia*.
*kyeugh* was killed. She was *not mafia*.
*IndigoEmmy *was killed. She was *not mafia*.

*N2
M&F* was killed. She was *not mafia*.

*D3
Butterfree* was killed. She was *not mafia*.


----------



## Vipera Magnifica

*Part Four: Greed*





As a storm raged in the night, Vicar Merato was jostled awake by a hand on his shoulder. "Vicar... you need to come quickly..." a woman whispered. "Something terrible has happened."

Vicar Merato sat up and rubbed away the crust from his eyes. "Lady Myranda?" he asked, puzzled. "What is going on?"

"There's no time to explain." the woman replied, tossing the vicar his clothes. "Put these on, and come with me."

As the town matriarch led the vicar down a dark stone hallway, Merato stepped past what appeared to be two dead bodies, before arriving at the Vault of the Serpent, which had been blasted wide open. In the light of the lamp he was carrying, Merato could see that the vault had been picked clean, with nary a handful of treasure remaining. The vicar looked from one side to another, aghast at the lack of gold, before turning around to see Lady Myranda, with a cowled figure on either side of her.

"You... It was _you_..." the vicar snapped.

The red-haired woman smirked. "Oh, so you figured that out, did you? _Good for you_..."

As the two cowled assassins stepped toward the vicar, Merato took a step back. "W...why? Why this... mutiny?" he stammered.

"You would ask me that, despite where you stand? Look around you! You priests really are all _idiots_" Myranda sighed. Outside, the storm continued to rage. "Your church has been a thorn in my family's side for far too long. You sit on your pious asses, playing your little card games, jacking us around, keeping us shut off from the outside world... Gods, do you have any idea how much _money_ we could be making if we sold what we mined? But no, all you can think about is how any contact with outsiders would lead the people to realize just how _pathetic_ your religion truly is."

The assassins took another step forward, and the vicar lurched back. "Get back!" he shrieked. "Get back! I am Vicar Merato, the Voice of The World! Get b-"

The vicar broke off his shouting as a third assassin plunged a knife into his back. As the priest fell to his knees, he looked up at the red-haired woman, defeated.

"You're not fit to rule this town. But don't worry, we'll take good care of it for you." Myranda said. "With the money I'll be making from trade, I'll be wealthier than an _Empress_."

The cowled assassins removed their hoods, revealing the faces beneath. Vicar Merato's eyes widened. "Jack? Mewtini... and Storm?" he sputtered.

Lady Myranda laughed. "Oh, you look so suprised. I almost pity you."

Vicar Merato collapsed onto his stomach as his strength gave out and his vision started to blur.

"Well, it's been fun." Myranda remarked as she began to walk away. "When you meet that snake god of yours, give him our fondest regards."

*Keldeo is dead. He was not mafia.
Mist1422 is dead. She was not mafia.

The mafia have achieved victory. Role PMs and actions will be posted shortly.*




Spoiler: Player List



@mewtini
@M&F
@IndigoEmmy
@Herbe
@Stryke
@JackPK
@Keldeo
@rari_teh
@kokorico
@Mist1422
@storm
@Butterfree
@Mr. Ultracool
@RedneckPhoenix
@kyeugh
@Seshas
@Trebek
@Zero Moment





Spoiler: Game Summary



*N0
rari_teh* was killed. She was *not mafia*.

*D1
Trebek* was killed. He was *mafia*.

*N1
Seshas *was killed. They were *not mafia*.
*kokorico *was killed. E was *not mafia*.

*D2
Herbe *was killed. He was *not mafia*.
*RedneckPhoenix *was killed. He was *mafia*.
*kyeugh* was killed. She was *not mafia*.
*IndigoEmmy *was killed. She was *not mafia*.

*N2
M&F* was killed. She was *not mafia*.

*D3
Butterfree* was killed. She was *not mafia*.

*N3
Keldeo* was killed. He was *not mafia*.
*Mist1422* was killed. She was *not mafia*.

*D4*
The *mafia* have won.


----------



## Vipera Magnifica

Spoiler: Roles



MAFIA



Spoiler: JackPK



You are *The Emperor*. You are sided with the *Mafia*, and will be working together with Mewtini, Trebek, and storm to kill members of the Town. During the night, one of you may decide to send in a kill action.

You are a symbol of power and authority, and the first time a kill is carried out by you, it cannot be prevented by any means.

Your goal is to eliminate all members of the Town, and you will win when this outcome is assured.





Spoiler: mewtini



You are *The Hermit*. You are sided with the *Mafia*, and will be working together with JackPK, Trebek, and storm to kill members of the Town. During the night, one of you may decide to send in a kill action.

Your house is full of many frightening secrets, and anyone who uses a night action on you will be too horrified to speak the following day. These players will not be allowed to post in the game thread until the next day phase.

Your goal is to eliminate all members of the Town, and you will win when this outcome is assured.





Spoiler: Trebek



You are *The Devil*. You are sided with the *Mafia*, and will be working together with JackPK, Mewtini, and storm to kill members of the Town. During the night, one of you may decide to send in a kill action.

You are obsessed with money and power, and will do whatever it takes to eliminate those who stand in your way. Once per game, you may choose to poison a player of your choosing during the night, and this person will die at the end of the following day phase. This death cannot be prevented by healing actions, but will not work on a player who has immunity to poison.

Your goal is to eliminate all members of the Town, and you will win when this outcome is assured.





Spoiler: storm



You are *The Magician*. You are sided with the *Mafia*, and will be working together with JackPK, Mewtini, and Trebek to kill members of the Town. During the night, one of you may decide to send in a kill action.

You are quite clever and resourceful, and each night you may target a player to learn their card name.

Your goal is to eliminate all members of the Town, and you will win when this outcome is assured.





Spoiler: RedneckPhoenix



You are *The Tower*. You are sided with the *Mafia*, although you are not part of the main mafia faction and are unable to contact them at night. You have been receiving payments from someone by the name of *JackPK*, although he is unaware of your identity.

You are an agent of chaos and misfortune, and your specialty lies in explosives. At any point during the day, you may post “*Explode [player name]*” and both you and that player will die in a fiery blaze.

Once per game, you may also place a bomb vest on a player during the night, and that player will wake up with the following set of instructions at their bedside:


> I have placed a bomb vest on you. If you try to remove the bomb vest, it will explode, and you will die.
> 
> You must vote to lynch [player of your choice] today. If you fail to do this, or at any point vote for someone else, I will detonate the vest, and you will die.
> 
> You must try to appear calm, and may not mention this note or the vest to anyone. If you do, I will detonate the vest, and you will die. You must appear to be acting out of your own free will.
> 
> If you comply with my instructions, I will remove the vest tonight.


If at any point you wish to do this, you must send me the name of your target and specify the player for whom they must vote.

Your goal is to help the Mafia eliminate all members of the Town, and you will win when this outcome is assured.



TOWN



Spoiler: Mr. Ultracool



You are the* Wheel of Fortune*. You bring good luck to all who visit you, and anyone who uses an action on you during the night will receive one of the following items at random:

*Wand* – This item may be used during the night to inspect a player’s alignment. The wand will break after being used.

*Cup *– This cup contains a healing remedy that will temporarily protect a player from being killed at night. You may choose to use it on another player or drink it yourself. This item may only be used once, and will not cause healer clash.

*Sword* – This item may be used to kill a player during the night. This sword will break after being used.

*Pentacle* – This item may be used at any time to have your vote count as double. You must message the GM to use this item. If you switch your vote before the end of the day phase, it will still count as double. This item may only be used once.

These items will be received by players at the end of the night phase that they targeted you.

You are sided with the *Town*, and your goal is to eliminate all members of the Mafia.





Spoiler: kokorico



You are *The Chariot*. You are a person of action, and will do what it takes to protect others, even if it costs you your life. Each night, you may choose to protect another player, and will die in their stead if they are targeted by any killing actions.

You are sided with the *Town*, and your goal is to eliminate all members of the Mafia.





Spoiler: IndigoEmmy



You are *Temperance*. You are a gifted healer who can save players on the brink of death. During the night, you may choose to heal another player, and they will be protected from killing actions. This will also remove the Mark of Death from an afflicted player.

You are sided with the *Town*, and your goal is to eliminate all members of the Mafia.





Spoiler: Herbe



You are *Judgement*. Your decisive nature allows you to control the fates of others. Each night, you may choose to kill another player.

You are sided with the *Town*, and your goal is to eliminate all members of the Mafia.





Spoiler: rari_teh



You are *Strength*. Your exceptional fortitude makes you more resilient than other players. You are immune to poison and cannot be afflicted with the Mark of Death.

You are sided with the *Town*, and your goal is to eliminate all members of the Mafia.





Spoiler: M&F



You are *The Moon*. Your powers over the night allow you to perceive hidden enemies. Each night, you may inspect a player and learn of their alignment.

You are sided with the *Town*, and your goal is to eliminate all members of the Mafia.





Spoiler: Butterfree



You are *Justice*. You strive for truth and fairness, and will take action to protect the wrongfully accused. Once per game, you may post the phrase “Hey guys I really don’t think we should lynch [player name]” and this player will be lynchproof until the following day.

You are sided with the *Town*, and your goal is to eliminate all members of the Mafia.





Spoiler: Seshas



You are *The Hierophant*. Each night, you may take a player into your confessional booth and force them to confess their sins. This player will be unable to perform their night action, and cannot be the target of other night actions.

You are sided with the *Town*, and your goal is to eliminate all members of the Mafia.





Spoiler: Mist1422



You are *The High Priestess*. You may use your powers as an oracle to receive divine guidance and find answers to life’s greatest mysteries. Each night you may ask the GM a question about the game, as long as it doesn’t pertain to a specific player or their role. You can ask questions such as “How many mafia members remain?” and “Is there an alien in this game?”

You are sided with the *Town*, and your goal is to eliminate all members of the Mafia.





Spoiler: Keldeo



You are *The Fool*. You are carefree and spontaneous, and choose to live by your own rules. At any point during the day, you can voluntarily leave the game by posting “*Sayonara, Wild Hearts*” in the thread. If you do this to prevent being lynched, the person with the next highest number of votes will be lynched instead.

You also have a small dog you have trained to steal objects from other players. Each night you may choose a player, and your dog will steal any items that they have in their possession. You will be able to use these items starting the following night.

You are sided with the *Town*, and your goal is to eliminate all members of the Mafia.





Spoiler: Zero Moment



You are *The Sun*. You are a symbol of happiness and joy, and can easily convince other townsfolk of your innocence. At any point during the day, you may ask the GM to confirm your alignment in the game thread.

You are sided with the *Town*, and your goal is to eliminate all members of the Mafia.



THIRD-PARTY



Spoiler: kyeugh



You are *The Hanged Man*. For you, victory requires sacrifice. You will start the game in the Upright position. If a night action would cause you to die while Upright, you will instead survive, and will become Reversed. If the town lynches you while you are Reversed, you win the game.

You are *neither Town nor Mafia*, but your inspection results will depend on whether you are Upright or Reversed. If inspected while Upright, you will appear as Not Mafia. If inspected while Reversed, you will appear as Mafia.





Spoiler: Stryke



You are *Death*. You are a bringer of plagues, and desire an end to all things. Anyone who comes into contact with you through night actions will be afflicted with the Mark of Death. Anyone who targets or is targeted by a player with the Mark of Death will also receive the Mark of Death.

You are *neither Town nor Mafia*, and will win alongside either faction if all remaining players have been afflicted. You can still win even if you are dead at the end of the game. At the end of each night phase, you will receive a list of afflicted players. Be aware that there may be roles who can remove the Mark of Death or are immune to it.








Spoiler: Action Log



*N0*
Seshas jails kyeugh.
Mewtini kills rari_teh.
M&F inspects kokorico. (Result: kokorico is not mafia)
Mist1422 asks "Are all non-town players informed of each others' identity? (i.e. are there any outgroup/third-party?)" (Result: No, there are outgroup and/or third-party roles)
Herbe chooses not to use an action.
kokorico chooses not to use an action.
storm inspects Keldeo. (Result: Keldeo is The Fool)
Keldeo steals from Zero Moment.

Players with the Mark of Death: none

*N1*
Seshas jails Mr. Ultracool.
Seshas receives a sword.
JackPK kills Seshas.
Herbe kills kokorico.
Mist1422 asks "How many town-aligned players are alive currently?" (Result: 10 town-aligned players are currently alive)
RedneckPhoenix places a bomb vest on Herbe, with instructions to vote for Stryke.
IndigoEmmy heals Keldeo.
M&F inspects kyeugh. (Result: kyeugh is not mafia)
storm inspects Mist1422. (Result: Mist1422 is The High Priestess)
kokorico chooses not to use an action.
Keldeo tries to steal from Mr. Ultracool (but it fails).

Players with the Mark of Death: none

*N2*
mewtini kills M&F.
Mist1422 asks "Is there a town-aligned role that is capable of giving out items in the setup?" (Result: Yes)
Keldeo steals from Stryke.
M&F inspects JackPK. (Result: JackPK is mafia)
storm inspects Mr. Ultracool. (Result: Mr. Ultracool is the Wheel of Fortune)
storm receives a sword.

Players with the Mark of Death: Keldeo

*N3*
JackPK kills Keldeo.
storm used a sword to kill Mist1422.
Keldeo steals from Mr. Ultracool.
Keldeo receives a pentacle.
Mist1422 asks "Is there a town-aligned role that is capable of checking for another player's flavor but not role or alignment currently alive?" (Result: No)

Players with the Mark of Death: Keldeo, Mr. Ultracool, JackPK


----------



## JackPK

oh boy guys even a win feels bittersweet when it means you had to elaborately hoodwink a bunch of your friends

(but good game everyone!)


----------



## qenya

well shit


----------



## qenya

I like the flavour of the alien being "Upright/Reversed"! In general the roles were really interesting and it's quite disappointing that so few of them actually got to see much use.

Also quite curious what other cards were in the Von tarot deck, haha.

come join 2r1b everybody


----------



## mewtini

haha i’m just a townie!
(good game yall!)


----------



## mewtini

very sorry to everyone and especially to the mafia for completely checking out after d1 :’D


----------



## qenya

mewtini said:


> very sorry to everyone and especially to the mafia for completely checking out after d1 :’D


I mean it worked though


----------



## mewtini

it did. but i do not feel very personally fulfilled in this win.


----------



## Keldeo

What a wild game hahaha. Congrats mafia, and thank you Von and Tofu for hosting!

Other town, I'm sorry - I feel like I should have been able to get there with the cards I was dealt, and it's on me that I didn't. I'd like to apologize particularly to Butterfree for not believing you until it was too late, and for actually having a small dog. 



mewtini said:


> very sorry to everyone and especially to the mafia for completely checking out after d1 :’D


It's alright, you did what you needed to! Knowing when to do nothing is a valid skill as mafia. 

Also, @Seshas, I have to know now, how is Mega Ampharos a jailer :O


----------



## Zori

pocket big sad


----------



## Zori

Keldeo said:


> Also, @Seshas, I have to know now, how is Mega Ampharos a jailer :O


Mega Ampharos is the Hierophant on the Pokemon Tarot Deck I have!
The rest was just claiming my actual role (though mafia)!


----------



## Mr. Ultracool

I actually wound up giving the Mafia a Sword


----------



## Zori

Mr. Ultracool said:


> I actually wound up giving the Mafia a Sword


You gave me a sword
I just sort of

died


----------



## Ys_

GG
Heh it was def something else to watch this from spectators chat


----------



## JackPK

oh I also want to apologize to @Butterfree in particular for trying to manipulate her with the same role claim... I didn’t mean for that to happen, or to target you specifically! but then you claimed, and it was the same thing I had crumbed (thinking it would be a role that probably no one had), and I had to make a snap decision whether or not to abandon my crumbs


----------



## Vipera Magnifica

some post-game thoughts



Spoiler



Well this was a wildly entertaining game! It ran a bit shorter than I expected, thanks to the carnage that happened on D2, but was no less entertaining to host. The mafia had some crazy luck due to a series of coincidences that happened, but I still feel like they played their *cough cough* _cards_ right to achieve that victory. As much as it looked like they were way ahead by D3, stuff like Emmy counterclaiming doctor could have drastically changed how that day played out.

Now of course I have to talk about Ultracool! When I included this role I thought it would be the wildcard that would ultimately help the town a lot more than the mafia, but it was a big surprise that no townies ever got to use an item. Seshas claiming watcher, then jailing Ultracool on N1 and dying after getting a sword really made a difference in how people viewed the role. When storm inspected Ultracool and I had to RNG to see what item the mafia would get, I cannot overstate how _lucky _they were to get a sword. Keldeo's role alone should have been a big hint to the town that the Wheel of Fortune role was real, but in his position I'm not sure how I'd feel if I didn't get an item after visiting the _one_ role that should have guaranteed an item. It would have been possible to extend the game into another day by stealing storm's sword before she could use it, but of course Keldeo would have no way of using it. Keldeo got a pentacle on N3 and then immediately died, which fits the recurring theme of townies dying just as they figure out the truth (here's looking at you MF)

What _really_ astounds me is that mewtini's ability never came into effect. I designed this game to have three roles that passively perform an action on those who target them: one scum, one town, and one third-party. I'll get to Stryke's role in a minute but I honestly expected some silencing to happen in this game. How would people respond when someone appeared to be silenced after a day of no one being silenced, or two people being silenced at once? This game, being one with only power roles, was meant to have some interesting interactions as such.

I found it interesting that the Death arcana was never talked about in game. rari's role, though seemingly not that powerful in its own right, was meant to be a mysterious informant of sorts that would alert the town to the existence of poison and the Mark of Death. Similarly, Emmy was given info about the Mark of Death that was never shared, so the town had no way to know about it! I felt a bit sad for Stryke who wasn't getting any visitors for the first two nights, making it hard to actually do anything that would contribute towards his win condition, despite having one of the biggest obstacles (Strength) removed for him on N0. In retrospect, I might have added a visiting action onto one or two more town roles, but I was trying to keep Wheel of Fortune from being too OP, so I kept the number of roles with a visiting action to a little over half, for the sake of balance. Once the Mark of Death took off though, it really started to spread, and honestly if the game had gone on one more day I think Stryke could have won as well. When I made the role (admittedly inspired by some of the roles from Monster Seeking Monster) I wasn't sure whether to have the role be a singular third-party win like alien, or win alongside either faction, and in the end I went with the latter, because I figured the role had the potential to be seriously overpowered and it wouldn't be very fun for the town and mafia if Death just snatched a win away from them right at the end (this was, of course, the correct choice). I would have definitely changed the flavor text to be a lot more ominous if Death had achieved a joint victory, though.

I think it goes without saying that RNP was the true MVP of this game. Using the role in an unexpected way to secure an additional kill for the mafia? That was a stroke of brilliance, and even when he was messaging me to ask if it would technically work, I never actually believed it was going to work. I don't think I've ever seen an outgroup mafia have such an _impact_ on the course of a mafia game before, but I think this was the biggest event that contributed towards the eventual mafia win. Taking down both the vigilante and alien with him seriously helped the mafia's odds and swung the momentum heavily in their favor after losing Trebek on D1.

I think I might have tweaked one or two roles in retrospect, but overall I'm happy with how this game played out. In a game with so many town power roles, the mafia has to be given a little bit more firepower to balance it out, but it was quite surprising how quickly a lot of those power roles were neutralized. This was a game that could have swung drastically one way or another, and even right until the end there was still a fair chance for the town to win. Imagine how this game would have gone if everyone went and got an item from Ultracool N0 or N1. _Very_ differently.

I still find it hilarious that Jack was planning right from the start to claim governor, despite there _being_ a governor-type role in the game. I thought that would be the unluckiest break for the mafia, but Jack still managed to stick to his plan and claim governor in such a way that people believed him. Also, not sure if he's pointed this out, but look through Jack's ISO, and look at the first letter of each of his initial posts. You won't be disappointed.

All in all, this was a fantastic game to host, and I think everyone played very well! I enjoyed having the chance to do a bit more flavor writing than usual (I was really getting into my little narrative), and Tofu enjoyed making the Von draw-overs and getting to watch people try and figure out each other's roles. I'm glad people enjoyed this game, and I'd love to host another game like it sometime in the future. Thanks everyone!


----------



## mewtini

thanks vm for hosting!!!! :O


----------



## JackPK

thank you von!! it was a great game!


----------



## Herbe

Vipera Magnifica said:


> Also, not sure if he's pointed this out, but look through Jack's ISO, and look at the first letter of each of his initial posts. You won't be disappointed.


Governor Oat


----------



## Vipera Magnifica

kokorico said:


> Also quite curious what other cards were in the Von tarot deck, haha.


just the ones that @Tofu drew for this game!

she drew over The World when the game started then we looked at the minor arcana and decided which cards would be fun to draw over.


----------



## Vipera Magnifica

Vipera Magnifica said:


> As a *storm* raged in the night,





Vipera Magnifica said:


> "W...why? Why this... *mutiny*?"





Vipera Magnifica said:


> *jack*ing us around


would have been pretty funny if I breadcrumbed this earlier in the game


----------



## Trebek

thanks for hosting! even tho i got memed on D1 it was still super exciting to follow along: i had to keep reminding myself that i couldn’t talk in scumchat lmao



Vipera Magnifica said:


> Mist1422 asks "Is there a town-aligned role that is capable of checking for another player's flavor but not role or alignment currently alive?" (Result: No)


that would’ve been awkward lmao


----------



## JackPK

highlights from scumchat



Spoiler: N0






Vipera Magnifica said:


> mewtini said:
> 
> 
> 
> ok. i am a fool.
> 
> 
> 
> no. you are a hermit.
Click to expand...




mewtini said:


> i think it would be very funny if, with jack as ingroup, we accidentally n0 killed outgroup again.





mewtini said:


> mewtini said:
> 
> 
> 
> whoever targets me at night is silenced, looks like!
> 
> 
> 
> if we have another cats-ening where everyone massclaims hypochecks on me n0 i’ll laugh so hard
Click to expand...




Trebek said:


> also just to make sure does this conversation thread affect our number of messages or reaction score?





mewtini said:


> PMs don’t, otherwise my chat w rari would have been something to behold





JackPK said:


> brb making a sockpuppet account so I can PM myself 3340 messages and react to them all to surpass mewt's score





JackPK said:


> i wish i could react to reacts





Trebek said:


> JackPK said:
> 
> 
> 
> brb making a sockpuppet account so I can PM myself 3340 messages and react to them all to surpass mewt's score
> 
> 
> 
> we all know this is what tbh2 is for
Click to expand...




Trebek said:


> JackPK said:
> 
> 
> 
> here's a spreadsheet I'll be using to try to keep track of stuff. first sheet is from a "town perspective" with all claims, second sheet is from a scum perspective with only confirmed information
> 
> unfortunately my laptop screen is small enough, and we have enough players, that I cannot screenshot it in one single frame. so I'm just not gonna share from it in-thread, so I don't have to worry about stitching multiple screenshots together + worry about making sure to remember to crop out "town sheet" "scum sheet" at the bottom
> 
> it is here for all of y'all's benefit to peruse whenever you want, though
> 
> 
> 
> so i went back to click on this now bc i didn’t have good signal to load it yesterday, but now i’m dying at the mental image of u screenshotting this in mainthread and it just saying “scum view” at the bottom
> 
> what a mood
Click to expand...




mewtini said:


> now that no one in here is involved in snomfia i can say that i wolfed there and nearly did the spreadsheet slip thing like twice lmfao








Spoiler: D1






mewtini said:


> visions of someone in endgame going "wow all three of the first posters on d1 were mafia"





JackPK said:


> JackPK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JackPK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trebek said:
> 
> 
> 
> don’t spoil anything
> 
> 
> 
> VM kills hamilton
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Eyyyy racking up those sweet reaction points I haven't been getting 'cuz I died in my only other 2020-era mafia game so far
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> w- why is this post not showing up in my ISO. do I just have my ISO cached so it's not updating or something
> 
> I'm trying to fake!breadcrumb via first initials of my posts in my ISO so I need to know if this counts for the E in governor or if I need to make a different E lol
> 
> can y'all see this post in my ISO
Click to expand...




JackPK said:


> ok yeah definitely a caching issue with the ISO search setup, I have G-O-V showing up in my normal browser window and G-O-V-E in my incognito window. I guess I'll have to clear my cookies to see the full G-O-V-E-R-N that I'm up to so far





JackPK said:


> lmaoooooo herbe's reads





Trebek said:


> i’m literally cackling at them





mewtini said:


> bruh he kinda got us damn





Trebek said:


> guess we lose kek





Trebek said:


> what are the odds that mist is outgroup trying to flag us
> 
> or is that too obvious





mewtini said:


> Seshas said:
> 
> 
> 
> do you have any reads tbh
> 
> 
> 
> bruh. i haven't been in the thread!! >:(
Click to expand...




JackPK said:


> Trebek said:
> 
> 
> 
> jack, what makes you think seshas is softing? i might have just missed it so it would be nice to look at what you are seeing :p
> 
> 
> 
> iirc Seshas was the very first person to suggest watcher exists in this game, in #156, suggesting mafia might use a watcher to dissuade town from interacting with Ultracool, then in #226 started talking about town using a watcher to dissuade mafia, and iirc both of these were before literally anybody else started talking about watcher at all
> 
> (also, joke/meme evidence but in #52 claimed their "only role soft" to be a picture of Ampharos, which prominently factors into GSC as a lighthouse == I could read this as a watcher hint)
Click to expand...




mewtini said:


> Seshas said:
> 
> 
> 
> I might as well claim
> I'm watcher, hence I suggested the plan
> glgl
> 
> 
> 
> jack, you KING
Click to expand...







Spoiler: D2






JackPK said:


> lmao if we accidentally framed Ultracool by killing Seshas when everyone else in town was discouraged from targeting Ultracool





JackPK said:


> tfw rnp is more successful as mafia than the entire ingroup mafia combined so far





mewtini said:


> thank you keith tbh. chefs kiss





JackPK said:


> JackPK said:
> 
> 
> 
> lurkers right now are uh... @IndigoEmmy @storm @Butterfree @Zero Moment off the top of my head? should we ask them to massclaim first and then the more active folks after that?
> 
> 
> 
> Emmy reacted to this post with "Haha" so I'm pretty sure she's silenced lmaoooooo
Click to expand...




mewtini said:


> oh my god. emmy, queen ...





JackPK said:


> god this may be a REALLY reckless dumbass idea but mewt, what if you fakeclaim doctor? (ideally waiting until after ZM has claimed and, if possible, after Keldeo has claimed, just in case it's one of them)
> 
> the only remaining non-claimers are you, Emmy, Keldeo, and ZM, so if neither of them claims it, we'll know the doc is either Emmy or already dead, so we should be able to safely kill Emmy tonight and MF the next night
> 
> idk I just have a gut instinct that Emmy is doc and healed you
> (but I definitely want you to wait for ZM and Keldeo to claim just in case)





mewtini said:


> hmmmmm
> how strong is your gut instinct
> 
> if emmy were doc she definitely would have targeted me because she always TRs me :v so i am not opposed, just fearful. so waiting on zm/kel sounds fair to me





JackPK said:


> mewtini said:
> 
> 
> 
> hmmmmm
> how strong is your gut instinct
> 
> 
> 
> i mean it's a gut instinct so by nature it's unreliable, but I would say I'm at like 33-33-33 between doc being Emmy vs. one of {Keldeo, ZM} vs. one of the dead townies
Click to expand...




JackPK said:


> mewtini said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> storm said:
> 
> 
> 
> I feel I've forgotten like 80% of the thread... head empty
> 
> 
> 
> you are doing great tbh! dw. this is a ... stressful game, i didn't really get stressed as mafia last game i played but this one is really really hard for me to buckle down and play to be honest. i was not lying about that inthread :(
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> seconding this is VERY stressful, my heart was beating out of my chest for like an hour after I made my fakeclaim
Click to expand...




mewtini said:


> tbh jack you are doing great, i was really excited when i saw you also randed wolf :'D but yeah the climate this game is like, significantly more combative than usual, i feel like i'd even be struggling as town ...





mewtini said:


> Vipera Magnifica said:
> 
> 
> 
> having a silencer in the game i figured would be an amusing answer to the problem of high post count
> 
> 
> 
> hahahahaha
Click to expand...




JackPK said:


> mafia game concept: everyone has a targeting night action, and everyone also secretly has a reverse silencer tag added to their role but they aren't told about it. the only people who can talk are the ones who abstain from their night action





mewtini said:


> bruh
> 
> i forgot seshas watched skylar when i claimed. hastily put together rationalization, i am sorry if i fucked up lololol. i was just like “well, i always target skylar n0, so,”
> 
> endless pain





JackPK said:


> no I liked it fine! if anything this is nice bc it adds a roleblocker wrench into the mix that town can go down a garden path trying and failing to solve





mewtini said:


> performatively pinging emmy for the cred





mewtini said:


> oh my god emmy wasn’t silenced





mewtini said:


> JackPK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IndigoEmmy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Please don't vote for me guys. I'm actually not mafia.
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone else has mass-roleclaimed yesterday and today; can you claim your role too, please?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> inb4 she says doctor,
Click to expand...




JackPK said:


> I've been debating back and forth about who's hypothetically likely to be outgroup mafia with us (if any more exist; who knows, maybe all the remaining non-town non-us are all 3p)
> 
> before the massclaim I was kinda gutreading MF but now my gut is telling me Keldeo...? and idk if I'm just reading too much into that "oh no I'm not openwolfing"





JackPK said:


> Keldeo said:
> 
> 
> 
> So like you think they could’ve been planning to fake claim oracle from the very start of day 1? I guess that’s possible but it seems a little farfetched to me I guess.
> 
> 
> 
> he says to me, who planned my fakeclaim from the middle of night 0
Click to expand...




JackPK said:


> god what if emmy is our outgroup








Spoiler: N2






JackPK said:


> Oh fuck we forgot about Mist





JackPK said:


> also mewt lmao I just looked back at my spreadsheet again and realized no one has been silenced a l l g a m e l o n g
> 
> I was so sure that was gonna be a clutch power for us but I guess you really are the hermit after all


----------



## Trebek

JackPK said:


> highlights from scumchat
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: N0
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vipera Magnifica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mewtini said:
> 
> 
> 
> ok. i am a fool.
> 
> 
> 
> no. you are a hermit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mewtini said:
> 
> 
> 
> i think it would be very funny if, with jack as ingroup, we accidentally n0 killed outgroup again.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mewtini said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mewtini said:
> 
> 
> 
> whoever targets me at night is silenced, looks like!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> if we have another cats-ening where everyone massclaims hypochecks on me n0 i’ll laugh so hard
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trebek said:
> 
> 
> 
> also just to make sure does this conversation thread affect our number of messages or reaction score?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mewtini said:
> 
> 
> 
> PMs don’t, otherwise my chat w rari would have been something to behold
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JackPK said:
> 
> 
> 
> brb making a sockpuppet account so I can PM myself 3340 messages and react to them all to surpass mewt's score
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JackPK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i wish i could react to reacts
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trebek said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JackPK said:
> 
> 
> 
> brb making a sockpuppet account so I can PM myself 3340 messages and react to them all to surpass mewt's score
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> we all know this is what tbh2 is for
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trebek said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JackPK said:
> 
> 
> 
> here's a spreadsheet I'll be using to try to keep track of stuff. first sheet is from a "town perspective" with all claims, second sheet is from a scum perspective with only confirmed information
> 
> unfortunately my laptop screen is small enough, and we have enough players, that I cannot screenshot it in one single frame. so I'm just not gonna share from it in-thread, so I don't have to worry about stitching multiple screenshots together + worry about making sure to remember to crop out "town sheet" "scum sheet" at the bottom
> 
> it is here for all of y'all's benefit to peruse whenever you want, though
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> so i went back to click on this now bc i didn’t have good signal to load it yesterday, but now i’m dying at the mental image of u screenshotting this in mainthread and it just saying “scum view” at the bottom
> 
> what a mood
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mewtini said:
> 
> 
> 
> now that no one in here is involved in snomfia i can say that i wolfed there and nearly did the spreadsheet slip thing like twice lmfao
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: D1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mewtini said:
> 
> 
> 
> visions of someone in endgame going "wow all three of the first posters on d1 were mafia"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JackPK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JackPK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JackPK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trebek said:
> 
> 
> 
> don’t spoil anything
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> VM kills hamilton
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Eyyyy racking up those sweet reaction points I haven't been getting 'cuz I died in my only other 2020-era mafia game so far
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> w- why is this post not showing up in my ISO. do I just have my ISO cached so it's not updating or something
> 
> I'm trying to fake!breadcrumb via first initials of my posts in my ISO so I need to know if this counts for the E in governor or if I need to make a different E lol
> 
> can y'all see this post in my ISO
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JackPK said:
> 
> 
> 
> ok yeah definitely a caching issue with the ISO search setup, I have G-O-V showing up in my normal browser window and G-O-V-E in my incognito window. I guess I'll have to clear my cookies to see the full G-O-V-E-R-N that I'm up to so far
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JackPK said:
> 
> 
> 
> lmaoooooo herbe's reads
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trebek said:
> 
> 
> 
> i’m literally cackling at them
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mewtini said:
> 
> 
> 
> bruh he kinda got us damn
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trebek said:
> 
> 
> 
> guess we lose kek
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trebek said:
> 
> 
> 
> what are the odds that mist is outgroup trying to flag us
> 
> or is that too obvious
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mewtini said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seshas said:
> 
> 
> 
> do you have any reads tbh
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> bruh. i haven't been in the thread!! >:(
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JackPK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trebek said:
> 
> 
> 
> jack, what makes you think seshas is softing? i might have just missed it so it would be nice to look at what you are seeing :p
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> iirc Seshas was the very first person to suggest watcher exists in this game, in #156, suggesting mafia might use a watcher to dissuade town from interacting with Ultracool, then in #226 started talking about town using a watcher to dissuade mafia, and iirc both of these were before literally anybody else started talking about watcher at all
> 
> (also, joke/meme evidence but in #52 claimed their "only role soft" to be a picture of Ampharos, which prominently factors into GSC as a lighthouse == I could read this as a watcher hint)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mewtini said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seshas said:
> 
> 
> 
> I might as well claim
> I'm watcher, hence I suggested the plan
> glgl
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> jack, you KING
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: D2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JackPK said:
> 
> 
> 
> lmao if we accidentally framed Ultracool by killing Seshas when everyone else in town was discouraged from targeting Ultracool
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JackPK said:
> 
> 
> 
> tfw rnp is more successful as mafia than the entire ingroup mafia combined so far
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mewtini said:
> 
> 
> 
> thank you keith tbh. chefs kiss
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JackPK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JackPK said:
> 
> 
> 
> lurkers right now are uh... @IndigoEmmy @storm @Butterfree @Zero Moment off the top of my head? should we ask them to massclaim first and then the more active folks after that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Emmy reacted to this post with "Haha" so I'm pretty sure she's silenced lmaoooooo
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mewtini said:
> 
> 
> 
> oh my god. emmy, queen ...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JackPK said:
> 
> 
> 
> god this may be a REALLY reckless dumbass idea but mewt, what if you fakeclaim doctor? (ideally waiting until after ZM has claimed and, if possible, after Keldeo has claimed, just in case it's one of them)
> 
> the only remaining non-claimers are you, Emmy, Keldeo, and ZM, so if neither of them claims it, we'll know the doc is either Emmy or already dead, so we should be able to safely kill Emmy tonight and MF the next night
> 
> idk I just have a gut instinct that Emmy is doc and healed you
> (but I definitely want you to wait for ZM and Keldeo to claim just in case)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mewtini said:
> 
> 
> 
> hmmmmm
> how strong is your gut instinct
> 
> if emmy were doc she definitely would have targeted me because she always TRs me :v so i am not opposed, just fearful. so waiting on zm/kel sounds fair to me
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
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> JackPK said:
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> mewtini said:
> 
> 
> 
> hmmmmm
> how strong is your gut instinct
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> i mean it's a gut instinct so by nature it's unreliable, but I would say I'm at like 33-33-33 between doc being Emmy vs. one of {Keldeo, ZM} vs. one of the dead townies
> 
> Click to expand...
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> JackPK said:
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> mewtini said:
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> storm said:
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> 
> 
> I feel I've forgotten like 80% of the thread... head empty
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> you are doing great tbh! dw. this is a ... stressful game, i didn't really get stressed as mafia last game i played but this one is really really hard for me to buckle down and play to be honest. i was not lying about that inthread :(
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> seconding this is VERY stressful, my heart was beating out of my chest for like an hour after I made my fakeclaim
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mewtini said:
> 
> 
> 
> tbh jack you are doing great, i was really excited when i saw you also randed wolf :'D but yeah the climate this game is like, significantly more combative than usual, i feel like i'd even be struggling as town ...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
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> mewtini said:
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> Vipera Magnifica said:
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> 
> 
> having a silencer in the game i figured would be an amusing answer to the problem of high post count
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> hahahahaha
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JackPK said:
> 
> 
> 
> mafia game concept: everyone has a targeting night action, and everyone also secretly has a reverse silencer tag added to their role but they aren't told about it. the only people who can talk are the ones who abstain from their night action
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mewtini said:
> 
> 
> 
> bruh
> 
> i forgot seshas watched skylar when i claimed. hastily put together rationalization, i am sorry if i fucked up lololol. i was just like “well, i always target skylar n0, so,”
> 
> endless pain
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JackPK said:
> 
> 
> 
> no I liked it fine! if anything this is nice bc it adds a roleblocker wrench into the mix that town can go down a garden path trying and failing to solve
> 
> Click to expand...
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> 
> 
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> mewtini said:
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> 
> 
> performatively pinging emmy for the cred
> 
> Click to expand...
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> 
> 
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> mewtini said:
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> 
> oh my god emmy wasn’t silenced
> 
> Click to expand...
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> mewtini said:
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> JackPK said:
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> IndigoEmmy said:
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> 
> 
> Please don't vote for me guys. I'm actually not mafia.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Everyone else has mass-roleclaimed yesterday and today; can you claim your role too, please?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> inb4 she says doctor,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JackPK said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've been debating back and forth about who's hypothetically likely to be outgroup mafia with us (if any more exist; who knows, maybe all the remaining non-town non-us are all 3p)
> 
> before the massclaim I was kinda gutreading MF but now my gut is telling me Keldeo...? and idk if I'm just reading too much into that "oh no I'm not openwolfing"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
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> JackPK said:
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> 
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> 
> Keldeo said:
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> 
> 
> So like you think they could’ve been planning to fake claim oracle from the very start of day 1? I guess that’s possible but it seems a little farfetched to me I guess.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> he says to me, who planned my fakeclaim from the middle of night 0
> 
> Click to expand...
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> 
> 
> 
> JackPK said:
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> 
> 
> god what if emmy is our outgroup
> 
> Click to expand...
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> 
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> 
> 
> Spoiler: N2
> 
> 
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> JackPK said:
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> 
> 
> Oh fuck we forgot about Mist
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JackPK said:
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> 
> 
> also mewt lmao I just looked back at my spreadsheet again and realized no one has been silenced a l l g a m e l o n g
> 
> I was so sure that was gonna be a clutch power for us but I guess you really are the hermit after all
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

iconic tbh


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## Stryke

Aw man I almost won :(


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## Stryke

GG guys, this was fun!


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## Vipera Magnifica

Stryke said:


> Aw man I almost won :(


Imagine if people figured out your role somehow and started social distancing in-game


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## storm

aaaaa I was so sure people were going to figure out my extremely obvious "well I didn't get anything from ultracool ))):" play 

this game was really fun!! also terrifying and I Cannot Believe my first mafia game back I was scum _and_ didn't die!! what are the odds tbh

that I got a sword though... the hive gods are looking out for me lmao


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## RedneckPhoenix

good to see my gambit worked

i liked this game. make me super terrorist more often


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## RedneckPhoenix

i like how the mafia doesn't acknowledge me in universe. like they're all probably wondering "who the fuck was that guy?" and jack's just like


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## RedneckPhoenix

my original idea was to force herbe to vote for someone, then detonate them so that herbe could no longer vote for them, making herbe die. that's when von said that the vest disappears if i die

i think that was the moment he realized i would do anything in my power to cause this chaos


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## Herbe

kicking myself for falling for it but im glad it was so funny


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## Zero Moment

I kept being not around at EoD and not having a good impact on the vote :P


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