# IMPORTANT: Mafia Rules



## Butterfree

*Mafia*, also known as _Werewolf_, is a popular social game, often played in parties or at conventions but also over the Internet through forums and chatrooms. To quote Wikipedia, it is at its most basic a clash between the informed minority, the _mafia_, and the uninformed majority, the _citizens_ or _innocents_. The game is split into two alternating phases, day and night; the mafia attacks a single player of their choosing during the night, and during the day all players vote on one person to lynch. The mafia faction wins if they successfully kill all the innocents, and the innocents win if they successfully lynch all the mafiosi.

Games are rarely just this basic setup, however; most games add several extra roles in addition to the fundamental mafia and innocent designations. Generally the only limit to how these roles can function is the imagination of the game master (GM); they may have special actions they can perform during either the night or day phase, some particular passive property, or even their own alignment and win condition. Some of the more common roles are explained below.


*The Mafia Faction*

_The mafia know of one another, may communicate privately at any point during the course of the game, and will show up as *mafia* when killed or inspected by the inspector, unless otherwise stated.

Mafia don_: The leader of the mafia. During the night, he sends in the mafia's choice of target to attack, and if other mafia members send in a night action, his choice always overrides theirs.

_Mafia goons_: The other members of the mafia. May send in the mafia's night action if the mafia don is away. One of the mafia goons at random will become mafia don if the original don is killed.

_Terrorist_: The terrorist is on the mafia's side; however, they do not know of him, and he does not know who they are (and as such, he may not communicate with them during the night). The terrorist's goal is to ensure that the mafia win, and to achieve this, he has one secret weapon at his disposal: he is a suicide bomber. At any point during the day phase, he may blow himself up and take one player of his choice with him. If the inspector inspects the terrorist, he will be shown as *not mafia*, and if he dies, he is also shown as *not mafia*.

*The Innocent Faction*

_Unless otherwise stated, innocents do not know the role of any other player, may not communicate with other players about the game outside of the public day discussion, and show up as *not mafia* when killed or inspected by the inspector.

Inspector_: During the night, he may inspect one player to find out whether they are aligned with the mafia, though certain roles may show misleading information (as described for each role).

_Doctors_: During the night, each doctor chooses one player, other than himself, to heal. If this player is targeted by the mafia, vigilante or a fishing brother's revenge kill on this night, he does not die. However, if two or more doctors choose to heal the same player, that player overdoses and dies, even if he was not targeted by the mafia.

_Lover_: On the first night, he picks one player as his lover. From this point on, regardless of either player's previous alignment, their ultimate goal for the game is to be the only two players left, and they may communicate privately with one another at any point during the game. However, if one of them dies, the other immediately commits suicide in grief.

_Vigilante_: During the night, he may kill one player of his choosing.

_Fishing brothers_: There are always two of them. Every night, each of them targets one other player of their choosing; if the other fishing brother is killed that night, the live one will kill the player he targeted in revenge.

_Roleblocker_: During the night, the roleblocker's target's night action (if any) is nullified. The roleblocker's role may also be aligned with the mafia, or there may even be one for each faction, depending on the game master's preferences.

*Singletons*

_These roles are an alignment of their own, having their own specialized win conditions. Unless otherwise stated, they show up as *not mafia* when inspected by the inspector, do not know any other player's role and may not communicate with other players outside of the day discussion thread.

Alien_: If the alien is attacked by the mafia, a vigilante or a fishing brother during the night, he does not die; instead, he turns into an _activated alien_.

_Activated alien_: If the activated alien is chosen to be lynched during the day, he wins the game. When inspected by the inspector, he shows up as *mafia*. The activated alien role is never given directly to a player; activated aliens only exist when a regular alien has been activated.


Individual game masters may modify, add, remove or rename roles as they see fit; the list above is merely a rough guideline for some of the most common generic roles. However, if game masters use these roles but choose to make them function differently than specified here, they should be sure to note this in their sign-up thread.

Some game masters may also play with _secret roles_, where players do not know beforehand what roles are present in the game. Often these kinds of games will also ditch the rule about innocents not communicating with other players outside of the day discussion. Again, everything is completely up to the game master; all that is required is that they give all necessary information in the sign-up thread for the game.


*The Game Process*

So you want to join or create a game? Well, then you should go to the Mafia Sign-Ups forum. To start a game, simply create a thread in that forum to explain the particulars of your game. To join a game, view an open sign-up thread and post to indicate you'd like to be part of it. (Some games may require you to provide some information or pick a flavor when you sign up; be sure to read the sign-up thread well.)

When a game has enough players and is about to start, the game master will use a random generator of their choosing to assign roles to players. He sends a PM to each player with the details of their role and then simply creates a thread here in the main Mafia forum. Once the thread has been created, the first _night phase_ of the game will start (unless this is a game that doesn't start with a night phase, which may happen depending on the GM).

*The Night Phase*

During the night phase, those players who have night actions will have to PM the names of their targets (remember: the target is always the _username_ of the player you want to target, not the role of the person you'd like your target to be!) to the game master. The night phase lasts until either all night actions have been received or some set deadline has passed, generally around 48 hours from the beginning of the night phase. Posting in the game thread is forbidden during the night phase.

If a player foresees not being able to send in a night action during the night phase, he may PM the Game Master beforehand with an advance choice. The advance choice may use conditionals, but only concerning things that would be public to the player if he were active during that night, e.g. "I will heal X if Y claims to be the terrorist in the thread," but not something like, "I will heal X if X is not mafia," because that is something the player would not know.

Once the night phase ends, the Game Master will randomly generate any night actions he has not yet received, in such a way that a mafia attack will target a random non-mafia player and all other night actions will target a random player excluding the user and any other players the player could reasonably be assumed to never want to target (such as a vigilante's lover), and then execute the night actions in the following order (eliminating, of course, any steps pertaining to players not currently in the game):

*Game Preparation* (these night actions occur with a shorter deadline on the first night, and then never again)
1) The lover picks a player to be their lover. They may then immediately begin to privately communicate with one another to plan out their strategy. If the other lover has already sent in a night action at this point, they will be allowed to reconsider in accordance with their changed goal for the game.

*Evening* (these night actions directly affect other subsequent night actions)
1) The roleblocker picks a target to block. If the targeted player has a night action appearing at any subsequent point in the night, it will not take effect.

*Midnight* (these night actions determine the deaths of the night)
1) The game master creates a _death queue_, starting as an empty list.
2) The mafia attack their chosen target. That target is placed on the death queue, unless it is the alien, in which case it is instead activated.
3) The vigilante attacks his chosen target. That target is placed on the death queue, unless it is the alien, in which case it is instead activated.
4) The doctors each heal their chosen target. If the target is currently on the death queue, that player is now removed from the death queue. If two or more doctors target the same player, that player is put on the death queue, regardless of whether he was on it before or not.
6) If either lover is on the death queue at this point, the other lover is put on the death queue as well.
5) If one of the fishing brothers is on the death queue at this point, the other fishing brother attacks his chosen target. That player is put on the death queue, unless it is the alien, in which case it is instead activated, or he was also targeted by a (single) doctor. If the targeted player is put on the death queue and has a lover, the other lover is put on the death queue as well.

*Twilight* (these night actions prepare for the coming day phase)
1) The inspector inspects his chosen target, and the game master PMs him with that player's current alignment as indicated by their role description.

*Dawnbreak* (some cleanup and messaging work for the game master to do before the day phase starts)
1) If an alien has been activated, the game master sends them a PM to notify them of this.
2) The game master kills every player on the death queue, in order, using the buttons given next to the players' names on the player list in the game thread. Note that since the players aren't actually killed until this stage, players who are already on the death queue by the time their night actions come into effect _do_, by default, use their night actions. This rule can be overridden by individual game masters as they see fit, but yet again, they need to specify this in their sign-up thread.

As with everything, individual game masters may decide to modify any part of this process, so long as they note this in their sign-up thread; this is merely here as a fallback unambiguous, algorithmic way to determine the outcome of the night phase if the game master is having a tough time puzzling out how all the night actions should interact. It is usually a good idea when creating new roles to pin down where in the order of night actions their action takes place in order to prevent ambiguity.

After the result of all night actions has been evaluated, the game master posts in the game thread, noting who died and whether they were *mafia* or *not mafia*. Game masters may, if they choose, write some creative descriptions of how the villagers discover the bodies, but this is not necessary - it's just for adding spice to the game - and the descriptions given are usually not indicative of how the player died. The game master's post should also contain an initial deadline for the day phase, generally between 48 and 72 hours from the start of the day.

*The Day Phase*

During the day phase, all living players may freely post in the game thread to discuss which player to execute at the end of the day (they may in most games also vote to _abstain_, which if it gets a majority vote means no player will be lynched on that day). Generally, they should post nominations for suspicious players by including their username clearly in *bold*, and at some point during the day phase the game master may either attach a poll to the thread, with the nominated users given as options, or simply collect the bolded votes manually.

Of course, nominated players are expected to fight tooth and claw to defend themselves from the accusations. Players may at any point claim to hold any role as a means of persuading others that they are not the mafia; however, they cannot conclusively prove their identity to be what they say it is, and any attempts to do so anyway - such as by posting purported quotes or screenshots of PMs from the game master - will be penalized.

At any point during the day phase, the terrorist (and nobody but the terrorist) may post *Bomb [player name]*, in bold, in the game thread. If this happens, both he and the player he targeted, as well as the targeted player's lover if any, are immediately considered dead and may no longer post in the thread. When the game master sees this, he will then formally kill the players in question (first the terrorist, then his victim, then the victim's lover if any) using the buttons in the player list and make a post detailing their alignments. If any player who is not the terrorist posts *Bomb [player name]* in the game thread, that player is immediately disqualified; however, players may of course _claim_ to be the terrorist and _threaten_ to bomb people whenever they please, no matter what role they actually are. The purpose of the bolded phrase is strictly to indicate the actual terrorist actually blowing himself up here and now.

If the day phase deadline comes along and there is a tie, the game master may either extend the deadline (if some players have yet to vote) or PM the last player to die to make a tiebreaker vote. Once a victim has been decided upon, that player is killed, unless he is an activated alien, in which case he immediately wins the game. If the player is not an activated alien and has a lover, the lover will then also die. The game master then makes a day phase wrap-up post in which he details the alignments of the killed players (if any), optionally writes colorful descriptions of the execution, and declares the deadline for the next night phase, and the cycle repeats until a winner is found.

The game ends whenever:
- there are only mafiosi (possibly including the terrorist) left alive, in which case the mafia wins.
- there are only innocents (and possibly the alien and/or terrorist) left alive, in which case the innocents win (the terrorist and alien lose, however).
- the only players left alive are the alien and/or terrorist, in which case everyone loses.
- an activated alien is voted to be executed, in which case the activated alien wins.
- the only players left are lovers, in which case they win.

If every player dies in the same turn, the winner will be determined as if the final player to die had in fact not died (this is where the order of night actions, as well as the fact a terrorist dies before their victim, comes into play).


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## yiran

Something is slightly unclear here; are you allowed to post in the game thread during the night phase? I'm asking this since there is no mention of it but the post says that during the day phase players are allowed to post.

EDIT: Thanks for the help!


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## Superbird

You're not supposed to, because technically you're supposed to be asleep. Questions for the GM can usually be fit into PMs.


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## yiran

Ugh, sorry for having so many problems, but are you allowed to edit posts in mafia games? I've seen many people double- or triple-post, so I assumed there is some unspoken rule of the sort.


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## ultraviolet

yiran said:


> Ugh, sorry for having so many problems, but are you allowed to edit posts in mafia games? I've seen many people double- or triple-post, so I assumed there is some unspoken rule of the sort.


as far as I'm aware, you generally aren't allowed to edit posts in mafia, which is why there's a lot of double-posting going on. If you're really unsure, you should ask whoever's running the game. Usually it's safer to just double-post; mods won't infract you for it here, anyway.


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## yiran

Me again :x

I have a suggestion (which you may or may not view as valid), and that is to extend the phase-changing when there is a vote sent in.

Why? First of all, stealth-lynching would very easy; just post right before the phase ends, and you could suddenly vote off the cop as mafia.

That, along with other things for convenience in the game. For instance, in my last mafia game, Song Choice Mafia III, I had something to say about the situation right before the phase ended, but I could not because then I would have to get up at 3AM and post.

If this is accepted, you can decide the time frame for extension. (I suggest something that's according to player amount.)

Thanks!


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## Phantom

yiran said:


> Me again :x
> 
> I have a suggestion (which you may or may not view as valid), and that is to extend the phase-changing when there is a vote sent in.
> 
> Why? First of all, stealth-lynching would very easy; just post right before the phase ends, and you could suddenly vote off the cop as mafia.
> 
> That, along with other things for convenience in the game. For instance, in my last mafia game, Song Choice Mafia III, I had something to say about the situation right before the phase ended, but I could not because then I would have to get up at 3AM and post.
> 
> If this is accepted, you can decide the time frame for extension. (I suggest something that's according to player amount.)
> 
> Thanks!


This sort of thing really depends on the GM. These rules are more... guidelines. (At least that's what I think. Mod, if I'm wrong feel free to chew me out.


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## 1. Luftballon

yiran said:


> Me again :x
> 
> I have a suggestion (which you may or may not view as valid), and that is to extend the phase-changing when there is a vote sent in.
> 
> Why? First of all, stealth-lynching would very easy; just post right before the phase ends, and you could suddenly vote off the cop as mafia.
> 
> That, along with other things for convenience in the game. For instance, in my last mafia game, Song Choice Mafia III, I had something to say about the situation right before the phase ended, but I could not because then I would have to get up at 3AM and post.
> 
> If this is accepted, you can decide the time frame for extension. (I suggest something that's according to player amount.)
> 
> Thanks!


well, that's only a problem if the relevant player is on the edge of lynch, which, if they've claimed, they shouldn't be at; and if they haven't claimed, whoever wants to lynch them shouldn't know that, either.

and in any case, stealth-lynch is pretty much obvious anti-town.


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## Flora

IIRC, most game mods allow for more time if no decision has been made.

Steath-lynches can't really happen anyway, since there needs to be a majority.


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## Mai

Well, some mods might allow a one-vote kill if that vote is the _only_ vote.

In which case... well, it's very anti-town, but the mafia might be able to get away with it if it's the endgame. I don't really care if it's a forced rule, although - as res said - the rules here aren't very forced at all.


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## yiran

Oh, if there has to be majority, then it's okay. But not all games use the majority rule.

And my second example still stands, about having to get up at midnight.

Also, if you succeed, it doesn't matter if it makes it obvious you're anti-town; you've just lynched off the cop and your teammates are pretty much safe now.


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## Phantom

As a GM I can say most people running the games are pretty laid back when in comes to the rules. I extend where it's needed, and if I am going to lynch one person for one vote, I let the town know, THEN I extend it. Anything that happens after that is the town's fault for inactivity.


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## yiran

The thing is, not all GMs are like you. Therefore I think there needs to be a rule that makes all GMs be responsible for the voting system. Maybe not as much as the stuff you stated, but more than what it's like now.


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## 1. Luftballon

if the town's votes are arranged such that a malicious agent can cast a tiebreaker vote at the end of the day, that is a problem in the town's cooperation. it also pretty much exposes the person who broke the tie as anti-town. I see no problem.


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## Mai

Or you could post things earlier. Most GMs give a reasonable amount of time; stealth-lynching is eh, but what you're suggesting could make phases last way too long. Plus, making a mandatory rule just for that is a bit off; these are mostly guidelines (we've had a game with terrorists instead of mafia), and something like that really is a preference.


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## yiran

None of these are solutions to not keeping me from getting up at 3AM.

And no, it wouldn't last too long, because it can be flexible; if the extension is three hours, for example, and a vote is cast every two and a half hours to extend the phase, the GM could just say "screw it you're being annoying on purpose" and end the phase anyway.


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## 1. Luftballon

but that would be breaking the rules one sets unpredictably, and that is a horrible thing to do. don't do that.


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## see ya

yiran said:


> Me again :x
> 
> I have a suggestion (which you may or may not view as valid), and that is to extend the phase-changing when there is a vote sent in.
> 
> Why? First of all, stealth-lynching would very easy; just post right before the phase ends, and you could suddenly vote off the cop as mafia.
> 
> That, along with other things for convenience in the game. For instance, in my last mafia game, Song Choice Mafia III, I had something to say about the situation right before the phase ended, but I could not because then I would have to get up at 3AM and post.
> 
> If this is accepted, you can decide the time frame for extension. (I suggest something that's according to player amount.)
> 
> Thanks!


Hate to say it, but nothing you would have said would have changed that you were already on the chopping block. You had an overwhelming number of votes for you even after you'd had your say. I counted. There were six votes on your head. Versus the one from you, that you chose completely at random. That's hardly stealth-lynching. There's nothing I can do about that. 

I would have had a time extension if there was any doubt, but there wasn't. You had plenty of time to have your say and you spent it making a claim that turned everyone against you, a claim you didn't have to and really shouldn't have made, as everyone in the thread already pointed out. Sorry. I would appreciate it next time that if you make a mistake like this you take it with some grace instead of passively-aggressively coming here to complain about it and try to get rules changed to cater to you.


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## yiran

sreservoir said:


> but that would be breaking the rules one sets unpredictably, and that is a horrible thing to do. don't do that.


Then why do we have moderators? To enforce the rules, yes, but also to use their judgement in specific cases. It's not a horrible thing to do. Yes, do that. Why would we even need court cases in real life if everything could be determined by a rule?

The rule could just say "GM can use their own judgement if they believe the players are unnecessarily extending the game" or something similar.



Sunflower said:


> Hate to say it, but nothing you would have said would have changed that you were already on the chopping block. You had an overwhelming number of votes for you even after you'd had your say. I counted. There were six votes on your head. Versus the one from you, that you chose completely at random. That's hardly stealth-lynching. There's nothing I can do about that.
> 
> I would have had a time extension if there was any doubt, but there wasn't. You had plenty of time to have your say and you spent it making a claim that turned everyone against you, a claim you didn't have to and really shouldn't have made, as everyone in the thread already pointed out. Sorry. I would appreciate it next time that if you make a mistake like this you take it with some grace instead of passively-aggressively coming here to complain about it and make excuses.


That's not about stealth-lynching. Stealth-lynching was given as a hypthetical (and very possible) scenario, and it is not related to the game. Plus, I never said I had a chance to survive. What I meant is that I had something to say (I obviously can't say it now since I'm dead) that in my opinion would be helpful to my faction, but since you ended the phase early I had no chance to say it.

And please don't start insulting me passively when you don't know my motive. I know what I'm doing, thank you. I would appreciate you to stop it. (And don't say you're not insulting me, please – "mak[ing] excuses" has a directly negative connotation, and that I should take a mistake (which I deny the fact that it is a mistake) gracefully which implies that I am not taking it gracefully and therefore is ungraceful, which is again negatively connoted.)

As a side note, you probably shouldn't offer your opinions on things as the host, as that would alter the gameplay.

Ugh, is it possible for me to have an opinion anywhere without people acting so negatively towards me? It's like purposely discouraging acts of dissent.


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## see ya

yiran said:


> That's not about stealth-lynching. Stealth-lynching was given as a hypthetical (and very possible) scenario, and it is not related to the game. Plus, I never said I had a chance to survive. What I meant is that I had something to say (I obviously can't say it now since I'm dead) that in my opinion would be helpful to my faction, but since you ended the phase early I had no chance to say it.
> 
> And please don't start insulting me passively when you don't know my motive. I know what I'm doing, thank you. I would appreciate you to stop it. (And don't say you're not insulting me, please – "mak[ing] excuses" has a directly negative connotation, and that I should take a mistake (which I deny the fact that it is a mistake) gracefully which implies that I am not taking it gracefully and therefore is ungraceful, which is again negatively connoted.)
> 
> As a side note, you probably shouldn't offer your opinions on things as the host, as that would alter the gameplay.
> 
> Ugh, is it possible for me to have an opinion anywhere without people acting so negatively towards me? It's like purposely discouraging acts of dissent.


Except stealth-lynching is basically impossible. Usually there has to be a clear consensus for a lynch to go through, and if the person doing the voting has no explanation for their vote, it's extremely suspicious and usually a good way of getting everyone to turn on them. In cases of ambiguity, the time is usually extended. 

And I'm sorry, but you only brought up this concern after you had died, and brought up my game in particular right there in your post. Time limits are time limits, and unless you come to me directly and bring up a concern in how a deadline might clash with your timezone, I am not going to extend the time just for you. Time limits exist for a reason, and I can't just change them arbitrarily because that would screw up everyone else in the game, me included. Yes, I'm irritated, because instead of communicating with the mod on what would best fit your timezone you decided to come here and try to get the official rules changed to something that would make life harder for anyone else trying to run a game (and it still doesn't change the fact that you _did_ have a chance to post your input for the Day, so it's not like you were shut out completely)

Pretty much every mod you will encounter will work this way. You're getting a negative reaction because what you're saying is generally impossible or implausible. We're not here to just tell you what you want to hear. It's been clarified for you. Case over.


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## Mai

yiran said:


> Then why do we have moderators? To enforce the rules, yes, but also to use their judgement in specific cases. It's not a horrible thing to do. Yes, do that. Why would we even need court cases in real life if everything could be determined by a rule?
> 
> The rule could just say "GM can use their own judgement if they believe the players are unnecessarily extending the game" or something similar.


But... the thing here is that mafia GMs pretty much do their own thing. Add it if you like--to your own games. It might catch on.

Sunflower: Stealth lynching _can_ happen. Some people just don't pay much attention, and not everyone is lenient. I'm not really going to argue about the game that I'm not in, but.


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## yiran

Sunflower said:


> Except stealth-lynching is basically impossible. Usually there has to be a clear consensus for a lynch to go through, and if the person doing the voting has no explanation for their vote, it's extremely suspicious and usually a good way of getting everyone to turn on them. In cases of ambiguity, the time is usually extended.


First of all "basically impossible" is one of those phrases that don't make sense. It is still possible and I have seen it happen on other forum mafias. However, that is not my main point here. It is a supplementary reason as to why my proposal is logical and should be accepted.



Sunflower said:


> And I'm sorry,


Are you genuinely sorry for insulting me or are you just saying it as an offhand comment? Given the rest of your post, I assume it's the latter.



Sunflower said:


> but you only brought up this concern after you had died, and brought up my game in particular right there in your post. Time limits are time limits, and unless you come to me directly and bring up a concern in how a deadline might clash with your timezone, I am not going to extend the time just for you. Time limits exist for a reason, and I can't just change them arbitrarily because that would screw up everyone else in the game, me included.


I could call this discrimination, if I were more extreme. Regardless, it's still not accounting others according to something that is not their fault, and that is unacceptable. Please detail how it would screw up everyone else in the game, I do not get it.



Sunflower said:


> Yes, I'm irritated, because instead of communicating with the mod on what would best fit your timezone you decided to come here and try to get the official rules changed to something that would make life harder for anyone else trying to run a game (and it still doesn't change the fact that you _did_ have a chance to post your input for the Day, so it's not like you were shut out completely)


You can be irritated, but that doesn't give you the right to insult someone.

I did have a chance to post what I knew; I did not have a chance to analyse the situation after I posted, because I was asleep. That has a negative effect on my game experience, and I do not wish for it to happen to me or any other players.



Sunflower said:


> Pretty much every mod you will encounter will work this way. You're getting a negative reaction because what you're saying is generally impossible or implausible. We're not here to just tell you what you want to hear. It's been clarified for you. Case over.


It's not impossible or implausible. How is implementing that rule impossible or implausible?

STOP ANTAGONISING ME. I'm not here to listen to what I want to hear; otherwise I wouldn't be posting because I expected opposition. I'm trying to improve the game system for players, not to come up with a petty comeback at you for not extending the time, as you probably think.

And no, not case over. Unless someone comes up with a logical post that directly addresses my point without stealth insults riddled all over it, and I agree with their logic, I am not going to stop arguing for my point. That or my suggestion is implemented.

Look, I didn't post because I wanted to make you look like a bad host; I posted to improve (in my view) the game system. If you don't agree, fine; stop implying with your words that I am immature and want everything my way, and present a logical argument as to why my suggestion should not be taken.

Thank you.



Mai said:


> But... the thing here is that mafia GMs pretty much do their own thing. Add it if you like--to your own games. It might catch on.


Hey, that's actually quite a good idea! Still, I'd suggest to make it somewhat official (maybe only to a small extent while encouraging to be more considerate), because otherwise there will be GMs who won't bother with stuff and make the game less enjoyable.


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## 1. Luftballon

yiran said:


> Then why do we have moderators? To enforce the rules, yes, but also to use their judgement in specific cases. It's not a horrible thing to do. Yes, do that. Why would we even need court cases in real life if everything could be determined by a rule?
> 
> The rule could just say "GM can use their own judgement if they believe the players are unnecessarily extending the game" or something similar.


then you write it into the rules as such, yes. by all means, write in a "extensions given at GM discretion" or a "extensions for votes except at GM discretion" -- the important thing is that once you've written the rules, you don't violate them. clarifying the rules, answering questions on the rules, reinterpreting the rules (so long as one does not contradict oneself) ... by all means, so long as one is careful not to upset the game setup (most usually through information leakage).

if a rule is written, such that, by nature, it must be interpreted subjectively -- say, something like "Posts are considered contributory/helpful at my discretion, but I will be fairly lenient with this." -- then certainly, they ought to be interpreted subjectively. that's what the rule says. contrarily, if the rule says something like "daytime will take a minimum of 24 hours, but extend to at least three hours beyond the last vote", then that is exactly what should be done.         

if someone makes assumptions which are not necessarily reasonable, then if the assumption turns out to be unreasonable, the consequences might well be the result of its bad assumption. if someone is tripped up by the rules not working as they are stated to work, that is a failure on the part of the GM -- because a game without consistent rules is not a game which can be _played_.


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## yiran

sreservoir said:


> then you write it into the rules as such, yes. by all means, write in a "extensions given at GM discretion" or a "extensions for votes except at GM discretion" -- the important thing is that once you've written the rules, you don't violate them. clarifying the rules, answering questions on the rules, reinterpreting the rules (so long as one does not contradict oneself) ... by all means, so long as one is careful not to upset the game setup (most usually through information leakage).
> 
> if a rule is written, such that, by nature, it must be interpreted subjectively -- say, something like "Posts are considered contributory/helpful at my discretion, but I will be fairly lenient with this." -- then certainly, they ought to be interpreted subjectively. that's what the rule says. contrarily, if the rule says something like "daytime will take a minimum of 24 hours, but extend to at least three hours beyond the last vote", then that is exactly what should be done.
> 
> if someone makes assumptions which are not necessarily reasonable, then if the assumption turns out to be unreasonable, the consequences might well be the result of its bad assumption. if someone is tripped up by the rules not working as they are stated to work, that is a failure on the part of the GM -- because a game without consistent rules is not a game which can be _played_.


Which is why I agree with putting it into the rules. Our ideologies don't clash here. In fact, I agree with your post. We should put it into the rules, with some discretion given to the GM.


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## see ya

Mai said:


> Sunflower: Stealth lynching _can_ happen. Some people just don't pay much attention, and not everyone is lenient. I'm not really going to argue about the game that I'm not in, but.


Fair enough, but it's not a very practical or common thing. And it's a result of normal play and not something that's the mod's responsibility to keep track of. Either way, I concede that I was wrong on that issue.



yiran said:


> I could call this discrimination, if I were more extreme. Regardless, it's still not accounting others according to something that is not their fault, and that is unacceptable. Please detail how it would screw up everyone else in the game, I do not get it.


Because _you are not the only one who has to worry about time_. Deadlines exist because that may be when the mod can reasonably have the time to tally up actions and come to a conclusion as to what the players will find in the day. You are not the only person playing this game. It's not a result of anyone singling you out, it's a matter of keeping some kind of consistency to the game. And if I pushed the deadline back I'd be screwing it up for someone else who isn't in your timezone. See how that works? Time limits are not always going to agree with you. That's life.



> I did have a chance to post what I knew; I did not have a chance to analyse the situation after I posted, because I was asleep. That has a negative effect on my game experience, and I do not wish for it to happen to me or any other players.


That's too bad. Deadlines are deadlines, and, for the hundredth time, _most mods are not going to change rules to cater to you unless you have a damn good reason._ And "I didn't have time to analyse the situation" is not a good reason. Why not just give an extension to everyone who just asks for it because "they need time to think." The line has to be drawn somewhere. 



> It's not impossible or implausible. How is implementing that rule impossible or implausible?


For the reasons that creating totally arbitrary day/night lengths is impossible/implausible.



> STOP ANTAGONISING ME. I'm not here to listen to what I want to hear; otherwise I wouldn't be posting because I expected opposition. I'm trying to improve the game system for players, not to come up with a petty comeback at you for not extending the time, as you probably think.
> 
> And no, not case over. Unless someone comes up with a logical post that directly addresses my point without stealth insults riddled all over it, and I agree with their logic, I am not going to stop arguing for my point. That or my suggestion is implemented.


I did. And you did nothing but take it personally and tried to repeat the same thing over and over. I stated in my initial rules that days were going to last 24 hours. You read the rules. You decided to join the game. 

Time limits are a thing that are entirely at the mod's discretion, and as such putting what you're suggesting into the official rules would restrict this freedom for a mod to run a game in the best way possible for them. If you want some more wiggle room, do so in your own games. But do not try to get official rules changed just because a time limit disagreed with you in one particular game. 

The bottom line is, what you're suggesting can't be added to the official Mafia rules. Start doing it yourself if you want, but when a mod sets up rules, that's their rules, and if you don't like them, don't join.


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## yiran

Of course I'm taking it personally – you're insulting me, and that is a legitimate reason to take things personally. What "thing" did I repeat over and over?

Yes but a vote significantly alter gameplay and players should have the chance to speak about it. I didn't.

They wouldn't just be "cater"ing to me, also other people who are not in good timezones.

"Time limits are a thing that are entirely at the mod's discretion, and as such putting what you're suggesting into the official rules would restrict this freedom for a mod to run a game in the best way possible for them." The best way possible for the mods is a very different thing compared to the best way possible for the players.

Why can't it be added? Why can't something that is beneficial to the playerbase be added? How is creating non-linear (it's not arbitrary, and for the last time please use accurate words rather ones with implications I or my suggestion is stupid without any rational reasoning) timed phases implausible/impossible?

Answer my questions, or I am going to ignore your arguments. I'm tired of ignorance. And insults.


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## Phantom

Dude you seem to like starting arguments.

These are guidelines, not really rules. The GM sets the rules. If stealth lynchings happpen it's the towns fault for either being inactive , or, sadly, did something stupid. You need to relax, and btw we don't have mafia moderators, just members who start games. I didn't do anything special to GM, I just started a game. You can start your own too, or play mafias where you know the GM takes a majority vote rather than a 'bastard' vote.

The moderators enforce th main forum rules. I think that they'd only intervene should a GM or player go shit fuck crazy for lack of more detailed words. 

You don't like it, don't play or pick your games, best advice I can give.


These 'guidelines' are only to teach people the basics of the game.


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## Coloursfall

dude, dude okay just. just stop, you're really not helping yourself here.

point the first: Sunny isn't insulting you. she is trying to get her point across while you are ignoring everything she says, and that's_ really really frustrating_

point the second: just because there is something in this thread saying 'oh and also extensions??;, etc etc, _not every gm will follow it_. in fact, most probably won't. I probably won't. you get 24, or 48, or 37 or 85 or some other random number the gm pulled out of their butt that each phase lasts. this is mostly because this is a forum. when you mafia in an irc channel or chatroom you can change the times around as much as you want because you know your players are all there and it will only be a few minutes to like. an hour or something anyway. on a forum, you need to have guidelines for time or else nobody will post anything (and even when you do they won't, see; ASB)

point the third: you're still dead, dude.

just. seriously, quit while you're ahead for once? 

if there are loads of typos/other misc. stupid, i'm sorry i'm kind of drunk rn


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## Zora of Termina

She's not insulting you and you're _already_ ignoring her  arguments. Most GMs are not, in fact, going to cater to the will of one  specific person unless they have a very, very good reason.

Your time zone appears to be ones that is pretty unreasonable to expect someone in her time zone to be able to adhere to. 

The rules stated here are _guidelines_. This has already been stated. Rules as stated in any given game thread depend on the GM and are usually _final_. They will not change for _you._


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## yiran

Please point out the arguments I have ignored. I am not aware I have ignored them; I will gladly respond to them.

The thing is, I don't get why a rule with next to no negative effects could possible be a bad thing. I know it's only a general guide, but I don't see harm in the addition of my proposed rule.

See, it's probably a difference in the definition of "insult" we perceive. I believe she insulted me due to unnecessary descriptions such as "cater" and "make excuses" which are inaccurate and only serve to demote my legibility. You probably only think "You're dumb" can be an insult. Still, I do not enjoy the implied negativity. Please stop it.

Also, I know I'll stay dead. I'm trying to help future players here, not myself. You're the people ignoring the fact that I've said this wasn't to "get revenge" on the GM of the previous game or revoke my death. I only request the proposal to be implemented into the rules, not to get some privileges regarding the previous game.

Meh, I knew that arguing with an old member wouldn't do me any good, because a bunch of that person's friends would come and support them, whether they agree with the old member or not. Still, I'm confident with my debating skills and I really, really dislike dropping the subject just to become popular.

Nah, I don't like starting arguments. I like making proposals, which people happen to disagree with. An argument therefore ensues.


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## Coloursfall

you know i'm like 100% sure this isn't some "oh they're ~popular~" thing

just

just stop

_please._

I don't think anyone but you cares enough about this beyond being exasperated at your behaviour, tbh

just play the stupid mafia and deal with the cards you're dealt like everyone else

I'm too drunk and tired for this so this is probably my last word on the subject GOOD DAY SIR


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## see ya

...now you're nitpicking my language. Really? _Really?_



> Because _you are not the only one who has to worry about time._ Deadlines exist because that may be when the mod can reasonably have the time to tally up actions and come to a conclusion as to what the players will find in the day. You are not the only person playing this game. It's not a result of anyone singling you out, it's a matter of keeping some kind of consistency to the game. And if I pushed the deadline back I'd be screwing it up for someone else who isn't in your timezone. See how that works? Time limits are not always going to agree with you. That's life.


You completely ignored this.

Also by the way? I don't post much on these forums. I'm not that popular even if I've been here for a while. The fact that EVERYONE HERE STILL DISAGREES WITH YOU SHOULD TELL YOU SOMETHING.

In short:







I'm going to bed.


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## ultraviolet

okay, _time out_.


			
				yiran said:
			
		

> I could call this discrimination, if I were more extreme. Regardless,  it's still not accounting others according to something that is not  their fault, and that is unacceptable. Please detail how it would screw  up everyone else in the game, I do not get it.


literally everyone lives in a timezone that is going to make things inconvenient on the internet in some way. I live in Australia! literally everyone is asleep about 80% of the time I'm online which makes it hard to participate in games! some people have busy schedules! some people have restricted internet access! refusing to give you an extension because it would mess up the game for everyone else is both reasonable and not in any way discriminatory!


			
				yiran said:
			
		

> The thing is, I don't get why a rule with next to no negative effects could possible be a bad thing.





			
				Sunflower said:
			
		

> Because _you are not the only one who has to worry about time._  Deadlines exist because that may be when the mod can reasonably have the  time to tally up actions and come to a conclusion as to what the  players will find in the day. You are not the only person playing this  game. It's not a result of anyone singling you out, it's a matter of  keeping some kind of consistency to the game. And if I pushed the  deadline back I'd be screwing it up for someone else who isn't in your  timezone. See how that works? Time limits are not always going to agree  with you. That's life.


Even if this idea became part of these rules, they are a _guideline_. GMs set games to how they want and run them how they want; these rules aren't usually enforced by moderators unless something unfair is going on. if you don't like how a game is run, don't play it! problem solved! moderators are not going to be going around making sure games run to your liking; that rather goes against the spirit of this forum, which is that GMs have a lot of freedom to set up their games.



> See, it's probably a difference in the definition of "insult" we  perceive. I believe she insulted me due to unnecessary descriptions such  as "cater" and "make excuses" which are inaccurate and only serve to  demote my legibility. You probably only think "You're dumb" can be an  insult. Still, I do not enjoy the implied negativity. Please stop it.


'Not wanting to get up at 3am' is an excuse, whether you want to call it that or not. Asking to have a rule added because it would make mafia easier for you _is_ 'catering' to you. 

Furthermore, Sunflower was largely civil and reasonable to you, and I  can only assume you found it antagonising because you didn't get your  way - if anything, you're antagonising her more. you suggesting this  rule shortly after being killed in her game is obviously going to be  read as passive-aggressive and rude whether you wanted it to or not. if  you personally have suggestions for how she GMs or if you _actually_ think what happened was unfair, you should be discussing it with her privately or with a Moderator, not in a public thread. 



> Meh, I knew that arguing with an old member wouldn't do me any good,  because a bunch of that person's friends would come and support them,  whether they agree with the old member or not. Still, I'm confident with  my debating skills and I really, really dislike dropping the subject  just to become popular.


And no, you don't get to complain about something that happened to you in a game, whine about the GM of said game and 'everybody else' being against you and then chalk it up to the GM being 'popular'. People have given you their reasons and you've ignored them. For someone who thinks they're 'confident in their debating skills', you would think that bringing ~popularity~ into a discussion where it's irrelevant and trying to gain sympathy because nobody agrees with you would be bad debating practice! for the record, I'm not really friends with any of these people (not that I don't like you guys, we just swim in different social ponds, if you will). 

tl;dr: GMs set games to how they damn well want, if you don't like it, don't play, consider that maybe people tending to disagree with you all the time isn't _their fault_


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## yiran

ultraviolet is the only one who is not posting satirical pictures to demean me, so I'm only going to respond to her. Thank you for your consideration.



ultraviolet said:


> okay, _time out_.
> 
> literally everyone lives in a timezone that is going to make things inconvenient on the internet in some way. I live in Australia! literally everyone is asleep about 80% of the time I'm online which makes it hard to participate in games! some people have busy schedules! some people have restricted internet access! refusing to give you an extension because it would mess up the game for everyone else is both reasonable and not in any way discriminatory!


It still is an inconvenience to those who are in a different time zone, which is not of their control. In my dictionary, that could be classified as discrimination, but since they have no choice I don't. I still don't get why giving an extension would mess up the game, though. Maybe it would be slightly inconvenient, but definitely not as far as "mess up". I mean, I do get the part about it would have to apply to everyone; that is a fault in my proposal. However, it could be tweaked to make it more valid, but let me respond to your other points first because tweaking it now, as I see it, is probably a waste of time as there is no intention of implementing my suggestion.



ultraviolet said:


> Even if this idea became part of these rules, they are a _guideline_. GMs set games to how they want and run them how they want; these rules aren't usually enforced by moderators unless something unfair is going on. if you don't like how a game is run, don't play it! problem solved! moderators are not going to be going around making sure games run to your liking; that rather goes against the spirit of this forum, which is that GMs have a lot of freedom to set up their games.


I see. Since you're a moderator, I'm going to take your word that a game can be anything as long as it is fair, right?



ultraviolet said:


> 'Not wanting to get up at 3am' is an excuse, whether you want to call it that or not. Asking to have a rule added because it would make mafia easier for you _is_ 'catering' to you.


Okay, I guess "make excuses" is true, then. But I believe the others still valid; it won't just make it easier to me, also other mafia players.

Meh, I think we can skip the word choice thing; I know I brought it up, but I'm not going to listen to them if it keeps happening, so it's irrelevant.



ultraviolet said:


> Furthermore, Sunflower was largely civil and reasonable to you, and I  can only assume you found it antagonising because you didn't get your  way - if anything, you're antagonising her more. you suggesting this  rule shortly after being killed in her game is obviously going to be  read as passive-aggressive and rude whether you wanted it to or not. if  you personally have suggestions for how she GMs or if you _actually_ think what happened was unfair, you should be discussing it with her privately or with a Moderator, not in a public thread.


Maybe from an outside standpoint she was civil, but I read between her lines and I felt insulted. I apologise if it is read as passive-agressive and rude; I will state here that I am not trying to antagonise Sunflower with this suggestion in any way. Now that's clear, I don't think that was unfair, I just wanted to propose something.



ultraviolet said:


> And no, you don't get to complain about something that happened to you in a game, whine about the GM of said game and 'everybody else' being against you and then chalk it up to the GM being 'popular'. People have given you their reasons and you've ignored them. For someone who thinks they're 'confident in their debating skills', you would think that bringing ~popularity~ into a discussion where it's irrelevant and trying to gain sympathy because nobody agrees with you would be bad debating practice! for the record, I'm not really friends with any of these people (not that I don't like you guys, we just swim in different social ponds, if you will).


You know what? I asked plenty of my friends, and they all happen to agree with me. I actually said "if you think I'm the one being stubborn and arrogant, just say it", and they all agree with me (and not to insult, but one of them actually called my opposition "terribly arrogant"); bear in mind these friends criticise my writing and my classwork (including debate speeches) heavily. Since they're not members of TCoD their opinion isn't quite relevant but that definitely demonstrates that a friendship with someone makes them more likely on your side.



ultraviolet said:


> tl;dr: GMs set games to how they damn well want, if you don't like it, don't play, consider that maybe people tending to disagree with you all the time isn't _their fault_


Okay. I'm still in doubt about the fact that everyone disagrees with me is because of what they actually think. Still, if my opinion's not appreciated here, I'll just shut up. But anyway, I learnt a valuable lesson – using adjectives or other words to insult people passively is okay here, so I can do that in the future to strengthen my arguments. Yay!

But really, to be honest, even though I may have been arrogant in this thread, I actually genuinely thought it was best for the players, and that Sunflower was antagonising me. Whatever. Case closed, I lose.

(I am also genuinely frustrated at the people who post rude pictures depicting me, and I want to destroy them using my own pictures, but that would be hypocritical.)


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## Zexion

yiran, I see where you are coming from. But, the things stated here are for people to refresh themselves or learn. A GM makes the time limits, like 24-hours, for a reason. They state these in the sign-up thread. It is the duty of the player to make sure to say what they want before the phase is up. Everyone that has posted in this has stated this in one way or another with/without knowing it. The player, once accepting to play the Game, must make sure that they get what they want said before they run out of time. I'm not going to bother quoting, but you must go to the GM if you want to say something else. I have only done one game, and it is stressful on me to write the descriptions. A GM will give you that certain ammount of time to post, but you have to make sure to ask if you need the extension. If you have something to say, but can't be on the computer before the End-of-Phase. Ask the GM before you get off for and extension.

I personally feel this has gotten out of hand. Mafia is a game, and these 'guidelines' posted at the start of the thread are only suggestions that a GM will follow. Every GM has their own tastes and will make the rules and schedules to fit theirs. Everyone that has said anything thus far has a valid point. But you must talk to the GM and work something out. The way the game is played is off of hunches, unless the cop/detective gets lucky. And where you have gotten this additude of 'the older members will have their friends backing them up'* is unknown to me.

I am sorry if a game has made you feel like you do, but, before making a jump like you did, talk to the GM. They often will help you reach an agrement. But, the only way for that to happen is to talk to them. Lynchings happen, sometimes unfairly, but that is the game. And, no one is trying to criticize/demonize/dowgrade you. We want to help you and show you. You said that you were new to the forum-based Mafia when you joined mine, so, listen and think to what we are saying. We only want to help you.

_*sorry if that isn't exactly how you placed it, it is how i read it_
_(i feel i was too repetitive in that)_


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## Phantom

yiran said:


> ultraviolet is the only one who is not posting satirical pictures to demean me, so I'm only going to respond to her.


 
Uh, what? I did not post any images, neither did many of the people who responded to you, only Colours and Sunflower did. It's a little rude of you to say that.


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## yiran

Phantom said:


> Uh, what? I did not post any images, neither did many of the people who responded to you, only Colours and Sunflower did. It's a little rude of you to say that.


Sorry, I apologise for being rude to you by implying you posted images, as well as some others. I viewed you (and the others) and Colours and Sunflower as a group. It was probably because I was really frustrated at Colours and Sunflower I forgot about the rest (except for ultraviolet who posted after them).

In any case, the argument has ended, so I think we can reconcile. :)


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## Superbird

By signing up for a mafia game, you agree to all the rules and parameters a GM has set up. If you don't like it then don't join.


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