# On Removing Clutter



## surskitty

Why are threads consisting of people counting or posting random numbers acceptable?

Why are _30% of the forum's posts_ in forum games, usually in the threads with no actual discussion?

Can anyone actually justify this or can I lock them and preferably draw and quarter the ones responsible?



ETA: Main issue resolved; forum killed for half an hour courtesy of me pressing the wrong button while dealing with a *17k post thread filled with jack squat*; now discussing CLEANING THINGS UP IN GENERAL


----------



## nyuu

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

I vote for purging forum games for all the reasons listed in the posts below
very few of the threads involve any thought, exactly one involved discussion in the form of a rivalry, and some people are saying the one thread with 17000 posts may be why tcodf is so slow recently, so...


----------



## nastypass

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*



surskitty said:


> Why are threads consisting of people counting or posting random numbers acceptable?
> 
> Why are _30% of the forum's posts_ in forum games, usually in the threads with no actual discussion?


simple and easy postcount++


----------



## Retsu

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

I knew surskitty posted this because all of her Forum Discussion threads begin with "On."

Seconding purging Forum Games altogether.


----------



## surskitty

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

There're a few good threads in forum games, though.  Presumably.  And then there's things like that one counting thread that contains _8% of all posts_.


----------



## Retsu

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

Good forum games could always be moved to Miscellaneous Discussion. Right now it's just a bunch of polls so it's not really going to hurt anything.


----------



## ultraviolet

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

Why?

Some people enjoy posting there and like it, just because you see it as pointless doesn't mean that you should altogether get rid of what other people enjoy.
I don't particularly like or participate in Forum Games, but this is stupid. Heaps of people post in this thread and it's unfair to get rid of it just because you don't particularly like it.

A lot of people do enjoy it, and who really gives a shit if it's 30% of the forum's posts - I thought quality was more important than postcount anyway.


----------



## Eevee

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

33%, actually!

And 8% of the entire forum is contained within US Vs. The World, the point of which seems to be merely fighting back and forth over a counter that doesn't mind when the same person counts twice.  Or 3700 times, in the case of Arylett.

One in every twelve posts, across the entire forum, is in a thread dedicated to bumping a number up or down by 1.
One in every three is content-free.


(Note that surskitty deleted and subsequently undeleted the above mentioned thread, which is throwing things off; vB didn't restore the posts in the thread to either user or thread postcounts.  Add 17500 to the total of Forum Games and total posts globally and you'll get about 72,000 in Forum Games and 217,000 total.)


----------



## Zhorken

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

Move the threads with some point that are active appropriately; purge all the games if you're going to.


----------



## surskitty

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*



ultraviolet said:


> Why?
> 
> Some people enjoy posting there and like it, just because you see it as pointless doesn't mean that you should altogether get rid of what other people enjoy.
> I don't particularly like or participate in Forum Games, but this is stupid. Heaps of people post in this thread and it's unfair to get rid of it just because you don't particularly like it.
> 
> A lot of people do enjoy it, and who really gives a shit if it's 30% of the forum's posts - I thought quality was more important than postcount anyway.


Please explain to me the value of incrementing/decrementing a counter repeatedly.


Quality _is_ more important than postcount, but that's rather a lot of posts all being used for ... nothing useful.


----------



## ultraviolet

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*



> Please explain to me the value of incrementing/decrementing a counter repeatedly.
> 
> 
> Quality is more important than postcount, but that's rather a lot of posts all being used for ... nothing useful.



Because people enjoy it. I don't like many of the forum games - but honestly, is 3000 pointless posts really harming anyone? Deleting the forum games isn't going to make TCoD any better of a forum, it just means a lot of people are going to be disgusted with the fact that these silly threads are actually removed because the mods don't like it. They're not against the rules; leave them alone.




> Or 3700 times, in the case of Arylett.


does this serve any purpose other than to flame Arylett? If you don't like her, fine, but seriously grow up.


----------



## Zuu

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

On the issue of post count:

post count should count posts with good quality information

not counting and other worthless shit

post count used to be OFF in forum games, for chrissake


----------



## Eevee

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*



NWT said:


> I vote for purging forum games for all the reasons listed in the posts below


Har.



NWT said:


> some people are saying the one thread with 17000 posts may be why tcodf is so slow recently, so...


It's entirely possible.  To get to the last page (862 or so) of that thread, the database first has to find the first 861 pages so it can skip over them.  That's a little harder than just grabbing the first ones it finds.  I've known vB forums that enforce closing after 1000 posts to avoid this.



surskitty said:


> There're a few good threads in forum games, though.  Presumably.


Where?



ultraviolet said:


> Why?


The same reason outright spam isn't allowed: because it degrades the quality of the forums as a whole and encourages people to pull the same nonsense everywhere else.

One in _three_.



ultraviolet said:


> They're not against the rules


There's a no-spamming rule.



Dezzuu said:


> post count should count posts with good quality information


I still hold that forums deemed unworthy of counting towards post count are unworthy of existing in the first place.

But this isn't about postcount; that's merely a statistic.  This is about the posts themselves.


----------



## xkze

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

Some people enjoy _murdering kittens with butter knives_
that doesn't mean people should just stand aside and watch them do it just because they enjoy it
some of us *like* our kittens alive and intelligent with meaningful things to say. The kinds of people who kill them degrade our society of kitten-loving fellows.


----------



## Zora of Termina

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

Ha, I remember when Forum Games was more than those goddamn counter games. Sure I posted in them a few times, but I never saw the thrill _at all_.

Third/fourthing (whichever it is now) purging, but only if it's just the counter games.


----------



## nyuu

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

...speculation that the massive thread is what's making tcodf run so slowly recently...


----------



## Zuu

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*



ultraviolet said:


> Because people enjoy it. I don't like many of the forum games - but honestly, is 3000 pointless posts really harming anyone? Deleting the forum games isn't going to make TCoD any better of a forum, it just means a lot of people are going to be disgusted with the fact that these silly threads are actually removed because the mods don't like it. They're not against the rules; leave them alone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> does this serve any purpose other than to flame Arylett? If you don't like her, fine, but seriously grow up.


actually I believe posts/threads with no value count as spam

also when the fuck did this have to do with flaming Arylett? it has to do with the quality of thread material in forum games, and people abusing it for post count (to be the super coolest members on the forums!)


----------



## Retsu

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*



ultraviolet said:


> Because people enjoy it. I don't like many of the forum games - but honestly, is 3000 pointless posts really harming anyone?


Yes. In case you hadn't noticed, the forums decide they don't feel like loading every five minutes or so, and this could definitely contribute to that.

Aside from that - quality control. I know stupid posters won't go away if Forum Games is closed, but we'd be removing a huge outlet for stupidity. It benefits everyone.


----------



## ultraviolet

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*



> The same reason outright spam isn't allowed: because it degrades the quality of the forums as a whole and encourages people to pull the same nonsense everywhere else.
> 
> One in three.


How on earth is forum games degrading the quality of the forum? They're simple little games that people like to play. 

Also, who really cares if one in three posts is a forum games post, honestly. It just shows that people like posting in forum games, not that the forum is in any way degraded.




> Aside from that - quality control. I know stupid posters won't go away if Forum Games is closed, but we'd be removing a huge outlet for stupidity. It benefits everyone.


Yeah, except the people who like posting there, you know? :|


----------



## surskitty

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*



ultraviolet said:


> Because people enjoy it. I don't like many of the forum games - but honestly, is 3000 pointless posts really harming anyone? Deleting the forum games isn't going to make TCoD any better of a forum, it just means a lot of people are going to be disgusted with the fact that these silly threads are actually removed because the mods don't like it. They're not against the rules; leave them alone.


Yes: it takes up server space.  This in itself is not a huge deal, but there's no reason why _30%_ of the posts here are ... nothing.  (I'm assuming that maybe 3% of forum games is actually good, which is probably overestimating, but hey.)





ultraviolet said:


> does this serve any purpose other than to flame Arylett? If you don't like her, fine, but seriously grow up.


I don't really care either way about Arylett, actually!  I do, however, find it completely ridiculous that a rather sizable portion of the forum consists of absolutely nothing.





Dezzuu said:


> On the issue of post count:
> 
> post count should count posts with good quality information
> 
> not counting and other worthless shit
> 
> post count used to be OFF in forum games, for chrissake


No, post count should _count posts_.


----------



## Eevee

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*



ultraviolet said:


> does this serve any purpose other than to flame Arylett? If you don't like her, fine, but seriously grow up.


She is the most frequent poster in the biggest (spam) thread on the forums.  The person in second place has _half_ the posts.

This is a fact, and one I found very telling.  My opinion of her is irrelevant.


----------



## Zuu

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

are you even listening to us
_
seriously_


----------



## Tailsy

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*



Xikaze said:


> Some people enjoy _murdering kittens with butter knives_
> that doesn't mean people should just stand aside and watch them do it just because they enjoy it
> some of us *like* our kittens alive and intelligent with meaningful things to say. The kinds of people who kill them degrade our society of kitten-loving fellows.


...

But
;____;

Why would you _do_ that to a kitten!?

-sobs in the corner-


----------



## xkze

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

...when did this ever have anything to do with flaming arylett
wtf



> ...
> 
> But
> ;____;
> 
> Why would you do that to a kitten!?
> 
> -sobs in the corner-


EXACTLY.
which is why this needs to be stopped.


----------



## Evolutionary

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

If you people care so much ask Butterfree to get rid of post count in forum games.


----------



## Retsu

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*



EeveeSkitty said:


> If you people care so much ask Butterfree to get rid of post count in forum games.


"you people"

Why do you think we're proposing this? We are stating our opinions so hopefully some action results from it. :)


----------



## Zuu

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

We already have

She complained about how it's contradicting our wishes to have post count on everywhere

(I wasn't here for that, evidently)


----------



## Coloursfall

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

...why don't you just get rid of the offending thread (and the other counting ones or ones that are kinda lame), but leave the good ones? (like the band one, you're banned, and some of the caption ones)  You could just get rid of new counting ones if they crop up or something.

just my two cents.


----------



## Retsu

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*



Full Metal Cookies said:


> ...why don't you just get rid of the offending thread (and the other counting ones or ones that are kinda lame), but leave the good ones? (like the band one, you're banned, and some of the caption ones)  You could just get rid of new counting ones if they crop up or something.
> 
> just my two cents.


Those threads are just as bad. Except the band one. :D But I'm biased.

But if people think the band one is as bad as the other Forum Games, I would certainly not be opposed to it being removed if it means a quality increase in the forums.


----------



## ultraviolet

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

Sorry if it's not all 'quality posts' to you guys, but lots of people tend to like these threads. And I really don't see how the silliness from forum games extends anywhere else.


----------



## surskitty

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*



EeveeSkitty said:


> If you people care so much ask Butterfree to get rid of post count in forum games.


ITP: FAILURE TO READ THE THREAD

This is not complaining about post count being on in forum games.

This is complaining about forum games being filled with useless crap that might be related to the whole "TCOD is really freaking slow lately" thing.


----------



## Coloursfall

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*



Retsu said:


> Those threads are just as bad. Except the band one. :D But I'm biased.
> 
> But if people think the band one is as bad as the other Forum Games, I would certainly not be opposed to it being removed if it means a quality increase in the forums.


I like the band one. :3

But you're banned is a classic (perhaps wiping it every little while could help though?), and the caption ones are fun, since people can come up with some hilarious things to say about avis and stuff.


----------



## Zuu

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*



ultraviolet said:


> Sorry if it's not all 'quality posts' to you guys, but lots of people tend to like these threads. And I really don't see how the silliness from forum games extends anywhere else.


okay I guess we have to go over this again

1) Just because people like it doesn't mean it shouldn't be against the rules

2) FORUM SLOWDOWN

c'mon, you should've learned how to read in kindergarten, at least


----------



## nyuu

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*



EeveeSkitty said:


> If you people care so much ask Butterfree to get rid of post count in forum games.


missing the point. also, if the posts aren't good enough or important enough to be counted, why are they being made


----------



## surskitty

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

I'm not complaining about the caption ones or You're Banned!  Although I personally dislike them both, they do at least usually require a bit of thought.

Counting does not.

Counting should not be at least 8% of the forum.


----------



## Eevee

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*



ultraviolet said:


> How on earth is forum games degrading the quality of the forum? They're simple little games that people like to play.


Exactly.  *Forums are for discussion.*



ultraviolet said:


> Also, who really cares if one in three posts is a forum games post, honestly. It just shows that people like posting in forum games, not that the forum is in any way degraded.


It shows that the forums are _full of crap_.



ultraviolet said:


> Yeah, except the people who like posting there, you know? :|


It took me a minute to really figure out where you're coming from here, because I've been on the intertubes for a good decade now and this is a very basic concept to me.  And this exposes the root of the problem; the same cause that shows up in a lot of places online.

I will just come out and say: *Who cares what they like posting?*

The point of a forum is not to pander _to you_.  Nor is it to make you happy, or to give you a place to slap something on the Internet just for the sake of having done so.

Forums are a focal point for a *group*.  The point is to engage the *group* in interesting discussion.

Forum games are inherently selfish.  Nobody reads the old posts; they are worthless and boring.  The only benefit any individual post has is to give the next poster something to respond to; after that, the original post serves zero purpose whatsoever.  None of them are any use to the *group* at all.  They are a giant circlejerk, intended only to make the poster feel special for putting something On The Internet, give the next poster an excuse to do the same, and then be discarded.

Your focus is on that brief moment in the limelight.  You can't see the forest for the trees.  *We* are here to serve the *forums*, not the other way around.


sup guys read this post it summarizes the whole problem and why I dislike Forum Games


----------



## ultraviolet

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*



> 1) Just because people like it doesn't mean it shouldn't be against the rules
> 
> 2) FORUM SLOWDOWN



1) How is it against the rules? They're not useless posts; they're contributing to their respective threads.

2) I haven't noticed a slowdown and I've been coming here everyday this week; we should see what Butterfree has to say about it.


----------



## surskitty

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

TCoDf has been white-screening a lot over the past few weeks.

I've been coming here fairly frequently -- every hour or three that I'm awake and home, actually -- for the past five years.  :|


----------



## Zuu

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*



ultraviolet said:


> 1) How is it against the rules? They're not useless posts; they're contributing to their respective threads.
> 
> 2) I haven't noticed a slowdown and I've been coming here everyday this week; we should see what Butterfree has to say about it.


1) they're spam. They're "contributing" to a worthless thread. Threads can be spam too, y'know. containing no value? we've gone over this too

2) I don't know about you, but pretty much everyone, after viewing said topic, has noticed slowdown, and the forums have been white-screening (and I should add that the rest of the interbutts are working fine for me)


----------



## Butterfree

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

The entire "People post things in Forum Games that would be spam in any other forum, so it must make spam SPREAD TO THE OTHER FORUMS" line of reasoning is ridiculous. There is no reason to think that the existence of Forum Games can 'pollute' the rest of the forum.

On the other hand, I have been puzzling over why people consider it a game to post something completely predetermined. Games get entertainment value from the choices that they let you make; the choices may be fairly meaningless for everything outside of the game itself, but they're what makes it worth the bother to play them. When there is always only one possible move for you to make, there is little point in the game's existence.

Thus, "US vs. The World", "Count to x", "Pokémon ABCs", etc. are games that I really cannot see as having any possible entertainment value whatsoever, and they really should go if they're causing the forums to slow down. The rest of the Forum Games forum, however, is staying.

*finally manages to delete US vs. The World*


----------



## surskitty

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

That thread just broke the forum.


It was my fault.


----------



## ultraviolet

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

Don't be silly, it wasn't your fault.


----------



## Tailsy

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

No, it was definitely her fault.


----------



## Zuu

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

Yeah, she kinda moved the thread.

Of course, as for the people who POSTED in it... >>


----------



## surskitty

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*



ultraviolet said:


> Don't be silly, it wasn't your fault.


If it's not my fault, it's Arylett's fault for 3.7k posts.  So I'm assuming it's my fault because _I broke it_.

I deleted US vs World, and then I tried to undelete it (because I deleted it to see what happened to stats)!  But I put it in the moderation queue by accident.  So I tried to move it back out...
...
...
and then the server died because the query was huuuuuuge.


----------



## Eevee

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*



Butterfree said:


> The entire "People post things in Forum Games that would be spam in any other forum, so it must make spam SPREAD TO THE OTHER FORUMS" line of reasoning is ridiculous. There is no reason to think that the existence of Forum Games can 'pollute' the rest of the forum.


It _legitimizes_ posting nonsense.  It's not going to literally overflow and spew forth over everywhere else, but if users are outright encouraged to post garbage in a specific forum, I find it hard to believe that they won't be more inclined (or less opposed) to do so elsewhere.


So why isn't there a Spam forum where people can spam without the slightest semblance of coherence?  I'm sure there are users who would enjoy that.  It would be random lol  XD


----------



## ultraviolet

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

Oh, so I guess it was kind of your fault. :x


----------



## Butterfree

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*



Eevee said:


> It _legitimizes_ posting nonsense.  It's not going to literally overflow and spew forth over everywhere else, but if users are outright encouraged to post garbage in a specific forum, I find it hard to believe that they won't be more inclined (or less opposed) to do so elsewhere.


I see absolutely no reason to think they would be. They're _games_. People know that they behave differently while playing a game than when participating in discussion.




Eevee said:


> So why isn't there a Spam forum where people can spam without the slightest semblance of coherence?  I'm sure there are users who would enjoy that.  It would be random lol  XD


Because spam is not a communicative activity. You can't play forum games without other players.


----------



## Zuu

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

How is counting and spewing nonsense about totally unrelated things a game? o-o


----------



## opaltiger

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

Look, I made a graph and everything.


----------



## #1 bro

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

Some of the forum games I honestly don't understand why people even bother. The ones where you just count, for example. How does _anyone_ derive any entertainment from that? On the other hand, some of them can provide a minor dose of amusement, such as Corrupt a Wish, Rate the Sig/Avatar/Usertitle Above You, etc. Regardless, I'm in favor of deleting the board. :|

I also think the Clubs forum should go.


----------



## Evolutionary

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

Why clubs?


----------



## Retsu

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

Clubs is completely useless for the most part.


----------



## spaekle

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

It actually took me a couple of tries to get this thread to load. :|

So, uh, I guess if the counting and "post something obvious" games really are slowing down the forums, there _is_ a legitimate reason to make a rule against them. I guess I can understand the competition in "US vs. The World", although that 'competition' consisting entirely of one side posting the most numbers is a bit silly, and I really don't see how things like "Pokemon ABCs" can be done for entertainment value. People do find forum games fun and I don't see why it needs to be removed altogether, but I can see that some of these threads are obviously just for postcount++, and if that's not a big deal, then the fact that they've gotten so big that they're dragging the rest of the forum down is.

If you really wanted to and somebody could be arsed to maintain this, you could make it so that new threads in Forum Games require moderator approval. I don't know whether that or simply locking offensive threads after they're made would be more practical, but it's just a suggestion. :V

Edit: postninjas! One could argue that the Clubs forum has been made obsolete by the Social Groups feature. I personally prefer the Clubs forum (something about the Social Groups interface just _bothers_ me D:), but I'm just sayin'.


----------



## #1 bro

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

The short answer: because I really, really don't see the point of having a club for fans of Super Mario Bros, when one could just make a thread in the Entertainment forum.

Also, am I the only one who _doesn't_ want a high postcount? I look at my postcount and I cringe when I see how large that number is. I'm not quite sure why.

EDIT: the LGBT club is valid, but that's about it


----------



## Zuu

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

social groups should replace clubs. 

you can still hold discussion in social groups. 

plus you can actually track membership


----------



## #1 bro

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

I don't understand this "social groups" of which you speak.


----------



## Kratos Aurion

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

The LGBT club could just as easily be moved to Misc. Discussion and still be valid, as could a few other clubs.

I mean, I post there occasionally because that's where the discussion is already happening, but there isn't really a reason for a separate forum for threads like that (especially when threads that basically amount to crossposting crop up, like whatever apparently went on with the spriting club).

Also, I haven't bothered looking at it recently, but on the old forums didn't the Now Playing/what are you listening to thread get as huge as whatever that huge thread in Games was (I have it turned off, I don't know anything about what goes on there anymore)? I don't know that the majority of the threads here get enough posts to justify a "1000 posts and then it gets locked, repost a new thread" rule like Eevee mentioned, but perhaps that should be done every once in a while whenever super-popular threads like that do pop up.

(actually I'm not really sure I see the point of Now Playing either but whatever)

Zeta: Social groups are another one of those new community features that got added to vB along with profile messages and crap like that. I don't use them and so don't know exactly how they work, but presumably they're like mini-Facebooks or mini-forums or something.


----------



## surskitty

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*



Spaekle Oddberry said:


> It actually took me a couple of tries to get this thread to load. :|


If you were trying between an hour and a half ago to an hour ago, that'd be because I broke TCOD.





Spaekle Oddberry said:


> So, uh, I guess if the counting and "post something obvious" games really are slowing down the forums, there _is_ a legitimate reason to make a rule against them. I guess I can understand the competition in "US vs. The World", although that 'competition' consisting entirely of one side posting the most numbers is a bit silly, and I really don't see how things like "Pokemon ABCs" can be done for entertainment value.


US vs World _broke the forum for half an hour_.  I'd say that's related to slowing down the forum!





> People do find forum games fun and I don't see why it needs to be removed altogether,


Never meant that they should be.  Just remove the ones with no brain required~ 





> but I can see that some of these threads are obviously just for postcount++, and if that's not a big deal, then the fact that they've gotten so big that they're dragging the rest of the forum down is.
> 
> If you really wanted to and somebody could be arsed to maintain this, you could make it so that new threads in Forum Games require moderator approval. I don't know whether that or simply locking offensive threads after they're made would be more practical, but it's just a suggestion. :V


I probably wouldn't really mind, but it's easier to just kill the really stupid threads on sight.





> Edit: postninjas! One could argue that the Clubs forum has been made obsolete by the Social Groups feature. I personally prefer the Clubs forum (something about the Social Groups interface just _bothers_ me D:), but I'm just sayin'.


Both bother me.  :(


----------



## ultraviolet

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

I don't think clubs should go - you can't really put Obsessive Scribblers in Misc Discussion, after all. :/ I can understand getting rid of all the little ones that were started but were then never posted in, though.

edit: aren't there heaps of dead roleplaying threads?


----------



## Retsu

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

We already have a place for the Obsessive Scribblers.

It's called... the Art forum. There's even an Artists' Lounge for them to socialize in! Problem solved. :D


----------



## surskitty

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

Dead threads don't tax the database the same way huge threads do.

If it's trying to load the last page of a huge thread, it first has to process the earlier posts.


----------



## ultraviolet

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

Was this always a problem at TCoD? I was only here like a month before the database wipe.


----------



## surskitty

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

Not as far as I know, because usually stupid threads didn't last that long.

Although the database died from a 'too many connections' thing.  And that might've come from really freaking huge threads.  I don't look at forum games much!


----------



## spaekle

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

Yeah, I've thought about how neglected the Art Lounge is. I like Obsessive Scribblers, but I'm sure pretty much everything we discuss there can be moved to the Art Lounge or respective art threads. And Social Groups, I guess.

I don't know; I like the overall idea of Social Groups and how you can track memberships with them and all that, but I don't like how it's so isolated from the actual forums and how all of the posts are so mashed together and whatnot. I don't see the point of having both a Clubs forum and Social Groups, but... :[


----------



## surskitty

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

Should I move Obsessive Scribblers to the Artist Lounge?


----------



## ultraviolet

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

But clubs isn't like Forum Games anyway; there's active discussion about the things they're based on. It's not made up of spam (for the most part).

If you merged most of the clubs with the misc. Discussion, wouldn't you end up with super huge massive threads anyway?


----------



## Zora of Termina

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

... Yes, I agree that OS could be moved to Artist's lounge but if you did half of us would forget about it, not to mention that half the time a sprite thread would be posted in at the same time and then the sprite thread would wind up with top billing which DRIVES ME NUTS ><

So no leave it where it's at.


----------



## Kratos Aurion

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

Are you going to move all of the other clubs that could logically be placed somewhere else, including things like the spriting club, etc.?

It isn't exactly a special case.


----------



## surskitty

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*



ultraviolet said:


> But clubs isn't like Forum Games anyway; there's active discussion about the things they're based on. It's not made up of spam (for the most part).
> 
> If you merged most of the clubs with the misc. Discussion, wouldn't you end up with super huge massive threads anyway?


That'd be why I'm not saying "LOCK EVERYTHING THERE".

That one thread was at 17k posts when I killed the forum with it....  I don't think they're likely to hit that.





Zora of Termina said:


> ... Yes, I agree that OS could be moved to Artist's lounge but if you did half of us would forget about it


Wait, what?  Why not subscribe to it and other threads so you just have to check your User CP...?

[shrug] @ sprite threads.  It already gets hidden by some of the stupider clubs, so.





Kratos Aurion said:


> Are you going to move all of the other clubs that could logically be placed somewhere else, including things like the spriting club, etc.?
> 
> It isn't exactly a special case.


I'd like to!  Butterfree seems to think that general discussion threads should only focus on canon material while clubs have fanstuff, though.  I'm not really sure why: sharing of AWESOME FANART should still be on topic....


----------



## spaekle

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

Well, I mean, pretty much all Obsessive Scribblers is is us drawing each other and posting pictures and sometimes giving critiques or discussing what media we use. We did arrange Artmo, but other than that there wasn't much we did that the Art forums aren't actually intended for. I'm sure it's that way with other clubs too. Do whatever sounds most logical, I guess. Although having lots of 'clubs' scattered all over different boards seems kind of... I dunno, messy?

Looking through the Social Groups, that entire part of the site as it stands is a bit of an eyesore. The majority of the groups are either things that there are already clubs for or things like "Post here if you've ever been to summer camp" or "Join this if your Pokesona is in your sig". I think it could be cleaned up and made into a useful part of the forums, and I guess I can get over whatever my beef is with the format of it. D:?


----------



## Zuu

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*

I made a social group I intended for actual use.


----------



## surskitty

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*



Spaekle Oddberry said:


> Well, I mean, pretty much all Obsessive Scribblers is is us drawing each other and posting pictures and sometimes giving critiques or discussing what media we use. We did arrange Artmo, but other than that there wasn't much we did that the Art forums aren't actually intended for. I'm sure it's that way with other clubs too. Do whatever sounds most logical, I guess. Although having lots of 'clubs' scattered all over different boards seems kind of... I dunno, messy?


It'd probably need a slightly different title, but yeah, sounds like that could be cleanly moved.





> Looking through the Social Groups, that entire part of the site as it stands is a bit of an eyesore.


There is currently absolutely no moderation there.





> The majority of the groups are either things that there are already clubs for


and frequently discussion threads!  Don't you just love redundant things~? 





> or things like "Post here if you've ever been to summer camp" or "Join this if your Pokesona is in your sig".


as I said, completely unmoderated 





> I think it could be cleaned up and made into a useful part of the forums, and I guess I can get over whatever my beef is with the format of it. D:?


It probably could~

I hate the format too.  :<


----------



## ultraviolet

Does the Clubs forum really contribute to the forum's slowdown that much? o.O I didn't really think that there were that many active clubs. I mean I guess the Social Groups could work, but I dunno. :/


----------



## Zuu

It's not so much about slowdown as clutter now, really.

/me points at thread title


----------



## surskitty

ultraviolet, we're not currently talking about the forum's slowdown.  So um.


----------



## Eevee

*Re: On Stupid Threads in Forum Games*



Butterfree said:


> People know that they behave differently while playing a game than when participating in discussion.


They're all just threads.  The only difference is the title of the forum.



Butterfree said:


> Because spam is not a communicative activity. You can't play forum games without other players.


Really!  Let's look at the first page of Forum Games.  I am going to bet right now that the majority of these don't depend on anyone else actually playing -- i.e., every "player" is used only for some metadata about the account (if that), not any actual contribution, so you could just pick someone at random from the member list for _exactly_ the same effect.

Write with a body part -- *no other people necessary*
Rate the avatar above you -- *other people irrelevant*
Caption the avatar above you -- *other people irrelevant*
Pokemon vs Pokemon -- depends on previous post
You're banned -- *other people irrelevant*
How famous are you on the forums? -- *other people irrelevant*
Never ending D/P cheat -- CAN depend on previous post but doesn't need to
Caption the signature above you -- *other people irrelevant*
Rock, Paper, Scissors -- depends on previous post
Rate the signature above you! -- *other people irrelevant*
Rate the usertitle above -- *other people irrelevant*
Making the Band -- *no other people necessary*
Lie about the above poster -- depends on previous post
Predict the next poster -- weird case but going to say *other people irrelevant* for actually playing
People vs people -- depends on previous post, but answer is essentially predetermined
Pokemon letter game -- depends on previous post, but answer is essentially predetermined
Gotta see em all -- *other people irrelevant*, and answer is random
The association game -- depends on previous post
Corrupt a wish -- depends on previous post
And of course: US vs the world -- depends on the previous post, but answer is essentially predetermined

So we have:
11 that are masturbatory
3 that can be played by very small shell scripts  (eta: actually 5 since Making the Band and Gotta See Em All are in both categories)
6 that actually depend on (only) the previous post, often tenuously -- with several of them, the previous post could still be generated randomly, as it doesn't really provide any context or require any thought
Well would you look at that.

Keep in mind that, since these are on the first page, they are the most recently-updated and thus ostensibly the most popular.

*How*, exactly, is this a communicative activity?  How is it not _spam_?  By your own definition: "You are also spamming if you make a post or thread that is directed personally at only a very few people and has nothing of interest for anybody else."  The ONLY person who benefits from a post in a forum game, even a non-masturbatory one, is the next poster!


----------



## #1 bro

Also, keep in mind the fact that pretty much every forum has a forum games board, and usually the threads inside are roughly the same set of activities. (corrupt-a-wish, count to ####, ctrl+v, and you're banned, for example, are games that you'll see at pretty much every forum games board.) I would suspect that almost every member on this forum frequents at least one other internet forum in addition to TCoD, and therefore any of our members who feel the need can get their forum games fixation basically anywhere else.

I like to think that discussion in tCoDf is of higher quality than the discussion in most pokemon forums, so why not just let those people that need to play pointless spam games go off to other forums, where that sort of activity is common/tolerated/encouraged?

EDIT: Also, Eevee, despite that being one of the most badass posts I've seen you make (and that's saying a lot) I would have to disagree with you about "Rate the ____ above you" threads not being community activities. I, personally, think it can be fun to see what other people have to say about my avatars and signatures.


----------



## Evolutionary

Yeah, if you change your avatar or signature you'd want other's opinions on it, right? And you can get suggestions to make your avatar/sig better. And I'm not really active to other forums. Unless you count Dragon Cave but I don't want to play Forum Games there, I only go there for News and discussion.


----------



## surskitty

However, people have a tendency to just post numbers.


----------



## #1 bro

Still, perhaps that would be better accomplished by one thread in General Discussion where you could post every time you updated your avatar, signature, or usertitle, and people would tell you what they thought? 

I guess all less pointless games (not that there really are any that I can think of) could always just go into General Discussion.


----------



## Evolutionary

Zeta Reticuli said:


> Still, perhaps that would be better accomplished by one thread in General Discussion where you could post every time you updated your avatar, signature, or usertitle, and people would tell you what they thought?
> 
> I guess all less pointless games (not that there really are any that I can think of) could always just go into General Discussion.


But the point is in the rating threads to get your avatar/sig/whatever rated you need to rate someone elses. If you use that thread then people could choose not to rate yours.

And I hardly post just numbers. In fact the regular US vs World player do post something that isn't numbers. 

Boys vs Girls has a much worse problem of this. I tried to get people to talk because numbers is just boring(as stated) but I can't be there all day telling people to talk so I quit the thread.

I wouldn't post in US vs World if it was ONLY numbers.


----------



## Eevee

THE GAME is numbers.  If you want to talk about something, well, that's what forums are for!  If you just want idle chatter, use IRC or IM!  A boring game thread used to disguise idle chattering is even worse.


----------



## Zuu

EeveeSkitty said:


> But the point is in the rating threads to get your avatar/sig/whatever rated you need to rate someone elses. If you use that thread then people could choose not to rate yours.


Why use a thread at all? Why can't you just PM/profile message your buddies? @_@ Having a thread is pointless. Having it as a /game/ is just stupid.



> And I hardly post just numbers. In fact the regular US vs World player do post something that isn't numbers.


Except the game was supposed to be just numbers (dumb as that is). People just turned it into a chatbox, which was off-topic and quite possibly spam.



> Boys vs Girls has a much worse problem of this. I tried to get people to talk because numbers is just boring(as stated) but I can't be there all day telling people to talk so I quit the thread.


Boys vs Girls didn't have seventeen THOUSAND fucking replies.



> I wouldn't post in US vs World if it was ONLY numbers.


irrelevant


----------



## Evolutionary

Has anyone noticed some people's post counts have been reset to 0.

So far I know of Spoon, Lucas and Murkrow.

They got the annoying, post an Introduction header XD

And Lucas at 0 posts is still a Butterfree XD


----------



## Zuu

I know Arylett lost like 7.4k posts... I attribute it to vB trying to delete US vs the World twice~ thus removing 7.4k posts instead of 3.7k


----------



## Evolutionary

Oh right, I know nothing of this stuff.


----------



## Alexi

Um...Anyone ever hear of fun, seriously? That's what games are for. They may seem stupid to you; don't pay attention. Really. If US Vs. The World was making the forums lag, then lock it and create a new thread. Having a bunch of small threads is less of a mess for the database than one massive one, yes. 

Some people actually do this called *talk* in the forum games. They'd have conversations and socialize. It's a place where a group of people can go, chill, play a game and have fun without big ol' debates and topics to restrict them.


----------



## Zuu

"without topic" = spam...?

yeah except if we locked it people get all whiny


----------



## Alexi

Not really spam. I mean, there are topics in there, they just aren't posted in the title. It's not like everyone's running in there, posting a number, writing something stupid in allcaps and leaving. 

You know why people would get whiny? Because they *like* the forum games. Is that such a wrong thing?


----------



## Zuu

no, but if there is no real value to the thread it is spam.

we went over this before, just because you like it doesn't mean it's not against the rules or wasting space. 17.7k posts of COUNTING.

... do you comprehend that?


----------



## Eevee

Alexi said:


> You know why people would get whiny? Because they *like* the forum games. Is that such a wrong thing?


If people liked posting "monkey" over and over in a thread tens of thousands of times, would you ardently defend that on the basis that people should be allowed and even encouraged to do things just because they like them?

See my grand post on the previous page.


----------



## Valor

Alexi said:


> Um...Anyone ever hear of fun, seriously? That's what games are for. They may seem stupid to you; don't pay attention. Really. If US Vs. The World was making the forums lag, then lock it and create a new thread. Having a bunch of small threads is less of a mess for the database than one massive one, yes.


What

No it isn't. All it does is clutter the forum archives with many locked topics, making it difficult to navigate ancient topics for something that is actually worthwhile. Unless this were Forum Games.

Locking doesn't do a damn thing. The space was already wasted. Soft deleting, as far as I know, doesn't help.

And in case you didn't notice, the US vs the World topic reached over _800 pages._ PSST. THAT'S A BIG NUMBER FOR A TOPIC.



> Some people actually do this called *talk* in the forum games. They'd have conversations and socialize. It's a place where a group of people can go, chill, play a game and have fun without big ol' debates and topics to restrict them.


Unless you have the stones to stay in the topic, you shouldn't be talking down to the big boys and girls. Stated many times before me, there's a fine line between spam and good old fashioned fun. There are already enough topics in the Misc. Forum for many forms of discussion. And from what I've seen in the Forum Games, I don't really see conversation going. Just short posts consisting of a few words. The Rate The Avatar topic is pretty awful, seeing that people post multiple times with the same avatar simply because the people there are too kind.  It's not constructive in the least. I tried constructive advice once in there and was pretty much ignored. 

If your idea of relaxing is always being on TCoD, there's probably some other problem here.


----------



## Tarvos

The $1,000,000-question:

Can we please improve forum content so that this forum isn't filled with a load of horseshit?

I always said we need to raise post quality; the stats just have seemed to back me up. Can people please read what Eevee says here and take some note 'cause you know, he's right.


----------



## surskitty

Valor said:


> Locking doesn't do a damn thing. The space was already wasted. Soft deleting, as far as I know, doesn't help.


Forum died from massive queries, not huge numbers of posts.

If it's soft-deleted, no one's going to try to look at it.





> And in case you didn't notice, the US vs the World topic reached over _800 pages._ PSST. THAT'S A BIG NUMBER FOR A TOPIC.


Particularly for a counting thread.


----------



## Lucas₇₅₅

> And from what I've seen in the Forum Games, I don't really see conversation going. Just short posts consisting of a few words.


You should look harder. I see plenty of conversation there.


----------



## surskitty

It has an abysmal signal:noise ratio, though.

There's conversation, but you might as well say that there's conversation in Post Your Adoptables.


----------



## Zhorken

It's the sort of idle, diluted conversation that should be taken to some sort of IM protocol.


----------



## Tarvos

It's the sort of idle, diluted conversation that doesn't belong on the goddamn forums.


----------



## Lucas₇₅₅

It's the kind of idle, diluted conversation that you can ignore if you want.
Besides, I've still been getting screwups when trying to come here.


----------



## StyliBoy

I had a huge one when Surskitty killed TCoD (How dare you!!), but nothing ever before...


----------



## surskitty

It was US vs World's fault.

Actually it was probably Arylett's fault.


----------



## Lorem Ipsum

Well, people seem to be doing it for postcount++, so perhaps stop posts counting in that forum?

This Clubs thing, why not just name the clubs forum to 'Fanclubs', then it takes things like Spriters' Club out of context, because it isn't a fandom. It would re-organise everything.


----------



## surskitty

Post count should count posts, though.

Why not just start forcing people to stop posting useless crap?


----------



## Tarvos

Why not just stop talking and actually do it because these measures are looooong overdue


----------



## Retsu

Because Butterfree thinks forum games are a good idea.


----------



## Tarvos

Clearly, reality proves her wrong.


----------



## nyuu

Forums Games should be allowed, but there should be a higher standard of quality. counting games and rate my something without commenting on it games (which make up most of the threads there right now) should be dropped.

So agreed that something should be changed.


----------



## Lucas₇₅₅

> Clearly, reality proves her wrong.


Yeah, because your opinion is automatically only good one!


----------



## Retsu

Lucas755 said:


> Yeah, because your opinion is automatically only good one!


His opinion is better than some of the rather unintelligent ones roaming around this thread... not naming names or anything...


----------



## Tarvos

Lucas755 said:


> Yeah, because your opinion is automatically only good one!


It's not, but it's a damn sight better than most people's. Plus the stats back my opinion up. I dunno if you actually read the thread, but if ONE IN TWELVE posts are dedicated to a COUNTING THREAD, and ONE IN THREE posts is devoid of content, I'd say there's enough reason to yell: "Houston, we have a problem."


----------



## Zuu

actually I'd trust him with a hell of a lot more than I'd trust most of the forums with

and I've been here for a while so I think I know what I'm talking about dawg @_@


----------



## Tarvos

I wouldn't trust myself with authority, I don't have natural authority besides yelling at people and I am a terrible decision-maker. All I've seen that came from this thread is some statistics that allow me to gravely doubt the need or existence of this forum, maybe not as a whole but many parts of it. I don't hold any authoritative power anymore and I am very aware of that, but I have been a pretty long-standing member of this community and even though I have had falling outs with many people on here thanks to me being one of those people that has opinions and won't shut up about them, I pretty much do think I have a grasp of how this forum and its people work; and I think I can safely say some improvement could be done with. If this is what the forum is going to be, I might as well yell and get banned again because what I say isn't going to make a goddamn difference to the admin and I know a lot of people agree with me in general, especially the people whose opinion I value the highest (opal, surskitty, Eevee, Tailsy) so yeah.

I don't want to sound like a broken record, folks, but I've said this in a hundred other threads and I'm gonna say it again and again and wave it in people's faces till this fundamental issue of the existence of this forum gets its proper attention from the people that have the power to change it. I sound really petty and I sound like a grumpy git, I get that, but I really feel it's necessary here at the moment. If we're all gonna enjoy this forum would you guys make sure there is some form of level to the entertainment and some sort of quality to it that we can't get anywhere else, because if I want to I can still talk to opaltiger on IM and I won't have a need to post here, and I'm sure this goes for many other people. This forum is big enough to not deserve that falling apart.

Ok, so I phrased it nicely for once.


----------



## Alexi

surskitty said:


> It was US vs World's fault.
> 
> Actually it was probably Arylett's fault.


Nice blame game going there. Sure she posted a lot, but if it wasn't her posting, it would have been other people. Over time, that thread would still have grown. She just sped it up a bit. 

It wasn't just a counting thread, it was a place where people talked and hung out. I don't see why you're all so against people enjoying themselves.

Admittedly, some games are kind of stupid, like the rating games. But *how *does this affect you? You could easily go on with your life without looking at the games. It's not like people are posting like that everywhere.


----------



## Lorem Ipsum

surskitty said:


> Post count should count posts, though.


Yes, but you've said yourself that some of these 'posts' are just numbers. If a sandwich lacked bread, it wouldn't be a sandwich. Same with a post, if it lacks content, it isn't really a post any more.


----------



## Retsu

Lorem Ipsum said:


> Yes, but you've said yourself that some of these 'posts' are just numbers. If a sandwich lacked bread, it wouldn't be a sandwich. Same with a post, if it lacks content, it isn't really a post any more.


Then they shouldn't _be here at all_, and that's what we're trying to get across.



> Admittedly, some games are kind of stupid, like the rating games. But *how *does this affect you? You could easily go on with your life without looking at the games. It's not like people are posting like that everywhere.


Read the damned thread, especially Eevee's post a few pages back. It explains everything.


----------



## #1 bro

Just throwing this out there: what if we stopped displaying post count in the postbit? I'm sure that this is possible with vBulletin.  

After all, the stat sort of lost its meaning after the vB crash, and it encourages people to make incoherent, low-quality posts in order to add to their postcount, instead of making interesting, relevant posts. 

Oh, oh oh! I just got a great idea. What if, instead of (or in addition to) postcount, we had _word_ count? I don't even know if this is possible, but if it is, it would be awesome!


----------



## Retsu

What? No. The people who are stupid enough to care about post count shouldn't be on these forums anyway. And it's a huge hindrance to those of us who actually _enjoy_ statistics.

We've had this discussion dozens of times and it always ends up the same.


----------



## Tarvos

Eris, stop throwing yer apples in here.

Post count is a meaningless statistic; we can have it, but I don't set any store by it (though people who enjoy those statistics can have it, but it should be representative of what it is measuring, above all). That is the problem. This thread is about removing redundant and idle posts, which I agree on. The only issue is how drastic do we want the removal to be (in my case, I would opt for removing a whole bunch of threads and subfora), or in the case of some other people (the admin) less drastic.

I know my opinion counts for shit but there you go. I think the case has really been made and everything else is going in circles. As it is, people, have fun enjoying your enlarged e-genitals thanks to the forum games increasing your postcount.


----------



## Alexi

Watershed said:


> As it is, people, have fun enjoying your enlarged e-genitals thanks to the forum games increasing your postcount.


And the same to you and the others for harrassing forum members!


----------



## Valor

Lucas755 said:


> You should look harder. I see plenty of conversation there.


YOUR AVATAR IS PRETTY 10/10 does not constitute as conversation.

I should not _have to look harder._ If I can't find it in the first place, then chances are, _it's bad._



Alexi said:


> Nice blame game going there. Sure she posted a lot, but if it wasn't her posting, it would have been other people. Over time, that thread would still have grown. She just sped it up a bit.
> 
> It wasn't just a counting thread, it was a place where people talked and hung out. I don't see why you're all so against people enjoying themselves.
> 
> Admittedly, some games are kind of stupid, like the rating games. But *how *does this affect you? You could easily go on with your life without looking at the games. It's not like people are posting like that everywhere.


Do you even understand logic? Apparently you don't so let me spell it out for you.

Several. Thousand. Posts. Do not. Speed up. A game. Am I going slow enough for you?

It was just _counting._ Page after page after _goddamn_ page, nothing but numbers. I saw no attempt at conversation in there, and same with other forum games.

For God's sake, _we're not trying to kill forum games._ We're trying to solve the problem of the clutter and what caused the lagging of the forums in the first place. READ THE ENTIRE TOPIC. There's a reason why Eevee has a post with forum size 7 font.


----------



## Tarvos

Alexi said:


> And the same to you and the others for harrassing forum members!


Harassing who? It's a joke based on the premise that postcount enlarges your e-penis, which is an obviously false statement. I'm making it ironically, as per usual.


----------



## Zuu

Alexi said:


> And the same to you and the others for harrassing forum members!


what


----------



## Alexi

Valor said:


> Several. Thousand. Posts. Do not. Speed up. A game. Am I going slow enough for you?
> 
> It was just _counting._ Page after page after _goddamn_ page, nothing but numbers. I saw no attempt at conversation in there, and same with other forum games.


And I'm sure you looked at _every_ page, scoured them all carefully.


----------



## Tarvos

Alexi said:


> And I'm sure you looked at _every_ page, scoured them all carefully.


with such a big thread I think sampling would still be an effective way of telling the truth instead of reading the whole thing which is a timeconsuming process and has a high chance of being redundant anyway


----------



## Alexi

Or one could simply scroll through each page, glance at larger paragraphs or sentences and determine conversations were happening. A quick go through wouldn't take long.


----------



## Zuu

or it could considering it's 800+ pages on default page length

800+ pages of counting




how do you not recognize how ridiculous this is


----------



## Retsu

But Dezzuu, they're having _fun_!!! What kind of heartless bastard doesn't understand this?


----------



## Alexi

Dezzuu said:


> or it could considering it's 800+ pages on default page length
> 
> 800+ pages of counting
> 
> 
> 
> 
> how do you not recognize how ridiculous this is


Wasn't just counting.


----------



## surskitty

It was almost entirely counting and what bits _weren't_ could have been done on... say... IRC.  Or any IM protocol ever.


----------



## Alexi

IRC is overrun with assholes and not everyone has the IM.


----------



## surskitty

Did you know that there is more than one IRC channel in existence?

It takes thirty seconds at most to set up a new one.


----------



## Retsu

Alexi said:


> IRC is overrun with assholes


#tcod is only particularly cruel to people who give us a reason to be cruel.
But IRC =/= #tcod.


----------



## surskitty

Even so, #tcod isn't really a unit.  :|


----------



## #1 bro

Alexi said:


> not everyone has the IM.


but 

everyone has the ability to take fifteen minutes out of their lives to get the IM


----------



## Retsu

Because we all know downloading and installing Pidgin is arduous beyond all belief.


----------



## surskitty

The server is robust.


----------



## Alexi

Retsu: I've heard it referred to as that, sorry for my mistake.

Zeta: Some people can't download every IM willynilly as they please. My own laptop can't handle more than two, and some people probably can't due to house rules, they're using someone else's computer, etc.


----------



## surskitty

Pidgin lets you use multiple IM protocols in one client.  :|


----------



## Retsu

Alexi said:


> Retsu: I've heard it referred to as that, sorry for my mistake.
> 
> Zeta: Some people can't download every IM willynilly as they please. My own laptop can't handle more than two, and some people probably can't due to house rules, they're using someone else's computer, etc.


Pidgin


----------



## Alexi

...And for those who can't download _that_?


----------



## #1 bro

It's also not like the US vs the world thread was the only place on this forum that you can have idle conversation with no real topic. We have a thread entirely dedicated to that, and it's called the Cafe of Doom.


----------



## Retsu

Alexi said:


> ...And for those who can't download _that_?


Why not? If you can download other bloated IM protocols, the only reason for not having Pidgin is stubbornness, something I wouldn't really put behind you.


----------



## #1 bro

Alexi: meebo.com


----------



## Alexi

Retsu said:


> Why not? If you can download other bloated IM protocols, the only reason for not having Pidgin is stubbornness, something I wouldn't really put behind you.


Talking about people who can't download anything.


----------



## Dewgong

I don't exactly have anything to say that hasn't been said, but I hate forum games all together. I used to post in there on occasion, but I quit doing that. Oh I kind of enjoyed that one game where each person adds a word to the paragraph and it makes a story. Questionable Content was cool, (or whatever it was called).

A forum is used for relevant discussion, as already said. 

Also, some people are getting up on Arylett for stuff. I find this amusing.



Alexi said:


> ...And for those who can't download _that_?


Alexi why do you keep going? You're going no where.

EDIT: God.



Alexi said:


> Talking about people who can't download anything.


Then don't download? I don't know.


----------



## opaltiger

Zeta Reticuli said:


> It's also not like the US vs the world thread was the only place on this forum that you can have idle conversation with no real topic. We have a thread entirely dedicated to that, and it's called the Cafe of Doom.


It's funny you should mention that thread, since the reason it exists is to prevent there being a whole bunch of threads full of idle conversation.


----------



## Zuu

Alexi, you realize forums have these things called PMs

right

and social groups

and profile messages


----------



## Alexi

Social groups interface fails, and PMs and profile messages aren't the same as having a space where a large group of people can chat.


----------



## Zuu

Alexi said:


> Social groups interface fails, and PMs and profile messages aren't the same as having a space where a large group of people can chat.


Then download an IM client or get Xchat. It's really, really not that hard. "O im standin up for teh pple who cant get the clientz". then, I'm sorry, use the Cafe of Doom or, oh I dunno, use the forums as they were intended to be used.


----------



## Alexi

...Or they can just have something to do in Forum Games.


----------



## surskitty

And if you can't download something, www.mibbit.com exists for Happy Fun IRC Time.


----------



## Valor

Alexi said:


> ...Or they can just have something to do in Forum Games.


Are you just trying to argue because you feel like you're the only power against "the man"? Are you a rebel against the meanies that are trying to clean the forums up?

Well, make sure you finish up your fantasy on your own. None of us want to bother with your little role play of you thinking you're actually going to save the day.


----------



## Dewgong

The Fourm Games isn't something to do

It's something people use to get their postcounts up

Discussion about subjects is doing something (saying something, i guess), not posting numbers.

If all you have to do is post in Forum Games find something better to do with your time


----------



## Alexi

That's not what I meant. Forum Games exist because people like them. It gives them something to do that's pretty pointless, yes, but it's something to do regardless. If Butterfree thought they were pointless, she wouldn't have made them.


EDIT
Dewgongeru: When people get bored, they become assholes. And then they do things that make other people angry. Then shit happens.

Also, I can't see why not just stop the Forum Games from counting as posts?


----------



## Zuu

When she made the forums she didn't think people would be counting for 17k posts. Did you even read her post in this thread? x_x She's AGAINST stupidass threads like US vs World. Christ, who fucking cares if people like them? It's useless and pointless and has no reason to exist.


----------



## Dewgong

Alexi said:


> Dewgongeru: When people get bored, they become assholes. And then they do things that make other people angry. Then shit happens.


That's not true. You're almost implying that because the Forum Games is "something to do" people aren't going to be like that? Because they aren't bored?



Alexi said:


> Also, I can't see why not just stop the Forum Games from counting as posts?


Because it's taking up space and doesn't need to exist.

Read the thread we aren't even talking about stopping posts in the Forum Games as counting towards your post count that was a while ago.


----------



## Zuu

Alexi said:
			
		

> Also, I can't see why not just stop the Forum Games from counting as posts?


because then they'll whine and cry about how their e-peens won't grow anymore without having to contribute actual value to a real thread


----------



## surskitty

No, because postcount should count posts and if it's unworthy to count for postcount, it's unworthy to exist.


----------



## Coloursfall

Why don't we just remove the 'what are you listening to?' thread too, then?

I've seen little-to-no discussion there either.


----------



## Retsu

I said somewhere in this thread that if NP is deemed pointless, I'd be more than happy to see it go.


----------



## surskitty

Because it doesn't get anywhere near the volume of posts that most of the really stupid threads in Forum Games do.


----------



## Coloursfall

> I said somewhere in this thread that if NP is deemed pointless, I'd be more than happy to see it go.


musta missed that then. :T this is turning into a huge thread so.

But anyway. I don't care what you do to forum games as long as you leave You're Banned (as I said before though, wiping it every so often would help) and the caption ones or something.


----------



## Zuu

it has no purpose whatsoever besides post count+ and if people want to take us seriously then, yeah, it's got to go


----------



## Kratos Aurion

@surskitty: As I mentioned earlier, though, it has the potential to. Over a much longer period of time, of course, but back before the wipe I could've sworn I remembered seeing 13k posts or something in that thread. I don't recall whether or not there was a lot of forum slowdown/whitescreening that could possibly be attributed to it, but I remember attempting to load it once and having a helluva time getting a page to display.

I honestly don't see the point of that thread, but if for whatever reason people insist that it stays on it might be a good candidate for the occasional lock-restart when it gets too big.


----------



## Dewgong

Speaking of whitescreening, I had to rewrite this long thing I was trying to post three times, and I got lazier everytime. :(

that's the kind of crap I'm tired of, and it's happening quite a bit I'm sure we all know that though

EDIT: My postcount just went backwards. It was over 1,100 and now it's... not. I just noticed that.


----------



## surskitty

That it does!  But it's currently not.  It's a definite candidate for either nixing or lock + restart, yes~

... is it plausible that Now Playing killed TCoD


I don't see the point either.


would anyone object if I merged a bunch of posts in You're Banned actually


----------



## Dewgong

surskitty said:
			
		

> would anyone object if I merged a bunch of posts in You're Banned actually


That's fine :)


----------



## surskitty

... shit nevermind vB is still retarded


----------



## Dewgong

I forgot what was going on with it early

What's it doing?


----------



## surskitty

the post merge thing is dumb


----------



## Zhorken

agreeing that Now Playing is also pretty bad


----------



## Lucas₇₅₅

I think Social Groups would be great for the discussions that went on in the forum games, except for the fact that Social Groups are the most out-of-the-way part of the forums and the format is a little strange.


----------



## spaekle

I like a lot of what the social groups feature has to offer (categorization, private groups, note of membership in profile, different discussion threads within each group for greater organization...); if it didn't feel so far away and the format weren't strange, it'd be amazing. It's certainly more sophisticated than just threads for clubs.


----------



## Zuu

out... of the way?

it takes two mouse clicks tops to get to @_@

though the format is a little strange, you just have to get used to it...


----------



## spaekle

It could also use some moderation/rules, but that's been covered. :P

Stupid idea: social group for games? They wouldn't count toward post count then, I don't think. There'd probably still be the issue of them getting too many posts though.


----------



## Zuu

that's not a horrible idea. plus whoever owns the group has the responsibility (and power) of deleting a thread, so...


----------



## Lucas₇₅₅

> out... of the way?
> 
> it takes two mouse clicks tops to get to @_@


Well, it's easy to get to, but easy to forget about. I joined a group once, then realized a month later that I forgot about it. Social groups aren't on the front page like the individual forums are.


----------



## Coloursfall

You can subscribe to them so they appear in your CP.


----------



## ultraviolet

> Stupid idea: social group for games? They wouldn't count toward post count then, I don't think. There'd probably still be the issue of them getting too many posts though.


I think this is a good idea; it could the responsibility of whoever owns the club to delete discussions that get over x posts. Then at least the forum games can't be found unless you go out of your way to look for them.


----------



## Lucas₇₅₅

> You can subscribe to them so they appear in your CP.


Yeah, but that is as easy to forget to go to as the actual social groups area.

What about having a tab at the top where the User CP button is, and have it drop down, showing your social groups?


----------



## Coloursfall

...

Community > Social Groups.

not hard.


----------



## Kratos Aurion

Besides, if all of the activities you're already used to keeping up with were moved to social groups, wouldn't it be harder to forget about? If you want to continue doing whatever it is you find so amusing about those games, it's not as though there would be anyplace else to check. You'd get used to it pretty fast, I figure.


----------



## Zuu

It's not any less convenient than going down to Forum Games and then finding the thread... -___-


----------



## Lucas₇₅₅

Well, it's easier because it's an actual listed forum, but whatever.


----------



## Evolutionary

Well Forum Games in social groups could work...but whoever made it is in charge so it'd have to be someone who wouldn't mess with it and randomly delete stuff. And they'd need to be active and everything. Unless every Forum Games thread has a group each but that'd be rather spammy. 

Personally I say we should not put Forum Games in Social Groups but if people really want it not in the main forum then try to get Butterfree to make a Social Group like place for Forum Games.

*breath* Longish post. Sorry if it isn't very understandable, I'm rather rambly.


----------



## Stormecho

Er, just jumping in here. I didn't take part in most of the Forum Games after Guess the Pokemon Above died, as I really liked that one, and the others just didn't seem as much fun. :P For one thing, making up riddles and having others guess what Pokemon it could be was much more thought provoking than counting, or rating, so I only took a look at those threads. Forum Games being in Social Groups is fine for me - I'm used to the format and it's easy to find them if you suscribe, if you're really, really lazy (like me). 

Anyway, what I'm getting at is that, if it would keep the forums from crashing, lagging and all that, it would be best to move them - or go to the trouble of locking the threads when they get too long and making new ones. Actually, it might be a good idea to do that to the RSP soon, considering it's 158 pages, and it's hard to keep up with everything... New members often have to go through a whole heap of posts before they can find out what's going on. :P

Bleh, starting to ramble. >< The point is, Forum Games would _still_ be fun if they were moved elsewhere, and, if I'm following this thread correctly, it wouldn't cause as much trouble for the rest of the forums, correct?


----------



## surskitty

It's not really moving forum games that'd help as much as simply removing the counting ones and probably the rating ones and starting new threads whenever they hit a certain number of posts.

It'd also be a good idea for someone to start a new Rack Shackle Pack thread, yeah.


----------



## Zora of Termina

...Well KQ hasn't posted in a while in there, so wouldn't it typically be a good idea to wait for her consent before doing that?

[/twocents]


----------



## surskitty

If you're just starting a new thread and continuing from where you left off?  I don't think it'd matter, really.


----------



## Ruby

This version of TCoD has existed for only six months, and already there are fifty thousand posts in Forum Games.  Fifty thousand in six months, if you ignore the threads which surskitty removed.  She was right to remove them.  But getting rid of two or three threads will not fix the problem, because Forum Games will grow back like a plant.  By March all the deleted posts will have been replenished.  At this rate, in Forum Games, by this time next year, the number fifty thousand will have bloated to a hundred and fifty thousand.  There will be as many posts in the Games forum as there are today in all the other forums put together.  If Forum Games is not dragging the server down already, there can be no doubt that it will be by then.  Why should we wait?  We should delete the whole of Forum Games now, instead of coppicing it every few months for ever.


----------



## Evolutionary

You could always wipe them when they get to *insert number here*.


----------



## Lord Jon Stall

I don't know if I'm the only one that has noticed, but even since the deletion of the US vs. World thread there have still been slowdowns in the site, and have been growing in frequency, so I would say it is say that it wasn't those threads.  

Also, just because you don't think that those forum games could possibly be fun doesn't mean that it is the truth.  Remember, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.


----------



## Alexi

Actually, more threads are being deleted, which is causing the slow-downs and such. :/


----------



## Evolutionary

More forum games are being deleted? Which ones?


----------



## Lord Jon Stall

I know, really, I haven't seen any mysterious disappearances lately.


----------



## Tailsy

Now Playing was deleted earlier...?


----------



## Evolutionary

Ehh...I never was a Now playing person...


----------



## Bombsii

Now playing actually really was a pointless forum game


----------



## Jetx

I actually had some interesting music discussions in that thread in the past. Seriously, ever noticed how a Now Playing thread is present on nearly every forum on the internet?

I mean, really, if processing every post in the thread prior to the most recent page is what has been slowing the forums down, would it not make sense just to make new threads for it every now and then, like most other forums do? I, for one, have gone through searches on old Now Playing threads to find some of the discussions I've had there, which hits me as it being straight-up more useful than half the threads in Insanity that are left to be buried under mountains of dust. What is this bull about people "not taking us seriously" for having a Now Playing thread?

The original problem was that whenever somebody loaded US vs the World, the forums would slow down, but to be honest a bunch of people now are just unnecessarily attacking threads that they deem to be postcount++ threads. What _significant_ harm do they do?


----------



## Minish

The Forum Games is a perfectly acceptable place - as long as it's postcount off. It used to be a place where you could just go when say, you were bored, or were waiting for a roleplay reply? When you consider that, and then consider that it's 30k of all forum posts, I don't think there's anything wrong with it at all.

But when the post count on for Forum Games came back, more people go there, clearly not only for reasons like the above but just to raise their postcount, which is a little annoying.

I know I'm ten pages late by the way. :P Just thought I'd put my view here, totally oblivious to what the topic has moved onto by now. Hmm, clutter...

Does it really slow the forum down? I've never noticed it. TCoD seems to load just as fast as any other general discussion forum.

Purging it now AND putting post count off would be better than just purging it and watching it grow back.



EeveeSkitty said:


> You could always wipe them when they get to *insert number here*.


That's a good idea~


----------



## Jolty

Deleting Now Playing was bloody stupid/uncessecary imo
That actually had a POINT to it unlike the couting threads

And it amuses me how a vBulletin forum lags at a few huge threads while an invisionfree forum doesn't lag when 20 odd people are posting all at once in a topic with 2500+ pages


----------



## Minish

Jolty said:


> Deleting Now Playing was bloody stupid/uncessecary imo
> That actually had a POINT to it unlike the couting threads


Normally I would say that it was just like any other Forum Game that is just either 'paste something, move on' or similar, but it really is quite helpful. :/ I've lost count how many times I've found new people to listen to because of what I've seen people I respect here listen to.


----------



## Ruby

If we are to keep Forum Games, then I want to keep its post count turned on.  In fact I want to keep post count on more than I want to delete Forum Games.


----------



## Minish

Ruby said:


> If we are to keep Forum Games, then I want to keep its post count turned on.  In fact I want to keep post count on more than I want to delete Forum Games.


Why?


----------



## Retsu

Ruby said:


> If we are to keep Forum Games, then I want to keep its post count turned on.  In fact I want to keep post count on more than I want to delete Forum Games.


Ruby, I don't think I've ever agreed with you as strongly as I do now.


----------



## Kratos Aurion

Jolty said:


> And it amuses me how a vBulletin forum lags at a few huge threads while an invisionfree forum doesn't lag when 20 odd people are posting all at once in a topic with 2500+ pages


That couldn't possibly be because Butterfree's forum is hosted on extra space on one of her dad's servers while IFree has several dedicated, high-power servers used and optimized for exactly that purpose, could it? I don't think the "quality" or whatever of the software has anything to do with it.


----------



## Abwayax

Especially since vBulletin is (supposedly) the industry standard for web-based bulletin boards. It would be like saying MediaWiki is crap if an installation on some junk Pentium 2 machine can't load a page of certain size, even though MediaWiki was built for one of the top 10 websites in the world.

And I'm rather sure people go to forum games for more reasons than just postcount++. The forum games board on my forum has postcount turned off but it still manages to be one of the most active boards.


----------



## Evolutionary

I never really got the lag, TCOD worked as fast as any other forumI've been to and faster than Serebii.


----------



## Ruby

Cirrus said:


> Why?


Why should it be turned off?


----------



## surskitty

Why shouldn't post count count posts?


----------



## Eevee

The lag is a red herring being used as a convenient practical excuse.

The issue here is the *quality of the forums*.  Posting useless garbage does not improve the forums (and is, in fact, _actually against the rules_).

People using "but it's fun!!" and "you can just ignore it" and "what harm does it do" as rationales are not trying to improve the forums; they are interested only in _themselves_ and what few seconds of bland entertainment and potential fame they can squeeze from the forums.

I wish you guys could at least get our point of view here rather than trying to rationalize why something with no point (and that takes no effort) belongs on _discussion_ forums where it will be saved _forever_.  Why can't this crap go in IRC or IM?  If you're bored, why can't you try to start a real conversation about something?


----------



## Valor

Jolty said:


> Deleting Now Playing was bloody stupid/uncessecary imo
> That actually had a POINT to it unlike the couting threads


Oh, yes, a topic with hundreds of pages of people saying what video game remix they were listening to, or being the fiftieth person to say "Still Alive" since the world just needs to know on every single gathering of that song's popularity.

Why don't you just create a Last.fm account for that stuff? Furret will probably squeel with joy.


----------



## Yarnchu

I'm coming in 11 pages late to the party, but I have somethings I would like to add to it.

If it's the quality of the forums at hand, then I don't see why major adjustments to the Forum Games can't be made. I'd go through and delete all of the stupid ones, keeping the legitimate games, and turn off the post count for the board to deter more useless posting. I'd then have some mods keep track of the board, eliminating stupid games at sight, or maybe have an authorization process, like what was mentioned earlier in the thread. The rest of the forum would have all repeated or useless posts deleted, to make use of useful threads. The whole Artmo thing, which it was previously stated to only been possible with a club, could get a seperate forum along with the other types of contests. As I said earlier, redundant threads, in this case Sprite Contests, would be deleted unless they are original or useful.

That is just my opinion on these matters, and I don't intend for any of it to be followed. Besides that, I don't have any authority or power so I don't expect much anyways.


----------



## spaekle

superyoshi888 said:


> The whole Artmo thing, which it was previously stated to only been possible with a club, could get a seperate forum along with the other types of contests. As I said earlier, redundant threads, in this case Sprite Contests, would be deleted unless they are original or useful.



Artmo wasn't really a contest, per se; it was a NaNo ripoff where we all drew one picture every day in December. (or, well, I fell back and failed halfway through, but yeah. D:) It was organized by a club, but it could be done by anyone if they wanted to. Granted, most of the arty-type people on this forum are in OS, but it might be cool to see it open to everyone next time we decide to do it. It could fit in easily with other contests and the like. :V


----------



## Tarvos

Eevee said:


> The lag is a red herring being used as a convenient practical excuse.
> 
> The issue here is the *quality of the forums*.  Posting useless garbage does not improve the forums (and is, in fact, _actually against the rules_).
> 
> People using "but it's fun!!" and "you can just ignore it" and "what harm does it do" as rationales are not trying to improve the forums; they are interested only in _themselves_ and what few seconds of bland entertainment and potential fame they can squeeze from the forums.
> 
> I wish you guys could at least get our point of view here rather than trying to rationalize why something with no point (and that takes no effort) belongs on _discussion_ forums where it will be saved _forever_.  Why can't this crap go in IRC or IM?  If you're bored, why can't you try to start a real conversation about something?



this



Eevee said:


> The lag is a red herring being used as a convenient practical excuse.
> 
> The issue here is the *quality of the forums*.  Posting useless garbage does not improve the forums (and is, in fact, _actually against the rules_).
> 
> People using "but it's fun!!" and "you can just ignore it" and "what harm does it do" as rationales are not trying to improve the forums; they are interested only in _themselves_ and what few seconds of bland entertainment and potential fame they can squeeze from the forums.
> 
> I wish you guys could at least get our point of view here rather than trying to rationalize why something with no point (and that takes no effort) belongs on _discussion_ forums where it will be saved _forever_.  Why can't this crap go in IRC or IM?  If you're bored, why can't you try to start a real conversation about something?





Eevee said:


> The lag is a red herring being used as a convenient practical excuse.
> 
> The issue here is the *quality of the forums*.  Posting useless garbage does not improve the forums (and is, in fact, _actually against the rules_).
> 
> People using "but it's fun!!" and "you can just ignore it" and "what harm does it do" as rationales are not trying to improve the forums; they are interested only in _themselves_ and what few seconds of bland entertainment and potential fame they can squeeze from the forums.
> 
> I wish you guys could at least get our point of view here rather than trying to rationalize why something with no point (and that takes no effort) belongs on _discussion_ forums where it will be saved _forever_.  Why can't this crap go in IRC or IM?  If you're bored, why can't you try to start a real conversation about something?





Eevee said:


> The lag is a red herring being used as a convenient practical excuse.
> 
> The issue here is the *quality of the forums*.  Posting useless garbage does not improve the forums (and is, in fact, _actually against the rules_).
> 
> People using "but it's fun!!" and "you can just ignore it" and "what harm does it do" as rationales are not trying to improve the forums; they are interested only in _themselves_ and what few seconds of bland entertainment and potential fame they can squeeze from the forums.
> 
> I wish you guys could at least get our point of view here rather than trying to rationalize why something with no point (and that takes no effort) belongs on _discussion_ forums where it will be saved _forever_.  Why can't this crap go in IRC or IM?  If you're bored, why can't you try to start a real conversation about something?





Eevee said:


> The lag is a red herring being used as a convenient practical excuse.
> 
> The issue here is the *quality of the forums*.  Posting useless garbage does not improve the forums (and is, in fact, _actually against the rules_).
> 
> People using "but it's fun!!" and "you can just ignore it" and "what harm does it do" as rationales are not trying to improve the forums; they are interested only in _themselves_ and what few seconds of bland entertainment and potential fame they can squeeze from the forums.
> 
> I wish you guys could at least get our point of view here rather than trying to rationalize why something with no point (and that takes no effort) belongs on _discussion_ forums where it will be saved _forever_.  Why can't this crap go in IRC or IM?  If you're bored, why can't you try to start a real conversation about something?





Eevee said:


> The lag is a red herring being used as a convenient practical excuse.
> 
> The issue here is the *quality of the forums*.  Posting useless garbage does not improve the forums (and is, in fact, _actually against the rules_).
> 
> People using "but it's fun!!" and "you can just ignore it" and "what harm does it do" as rationales are not trying to improve the forums; they are interested only in _themselves_ and what few seconds of bland entertainment and potential fame they can squeeze from the forums.
> 
> I wish you guys could at least get our point of view here rather than trying to rationalize why something with no point (and that takes no effort) belongs on _discussion_ forums where it will be saved _forever_.  Why can't this crap go in IRC or IM?  If you're bored, why can't you try to start a real conversation about something?



reposted just so you people will fucking read


----------



## Evolutionary

You can sort of tell it's the same post...unless you're blind or something.


----------



## Zuu

EeveeSkitty said:


> You can sort of tell it's the same post...unless you're blind or something.





			
				Watershed said:
			
		

> reposted just so you people will fucking read





			
				Watershed said:
			
		

> reposted just so you people will fucking read





			
				Watershed said:
			
		

> reposted just so you people will fucking read


i wonder why he reposted it


----------



## Yarnchu

I did read. I read the whole thread. Unless that is directed at other people.


----------



## Tarvos

it's directed at people like Cirrus and Arylett Dawnsborough and co. who don't understand Eevee's point about quality


----------



## Lucas₇₅₅

> what few seconds of bland entertainment


Entertainment value is relative to the person enjoying it.



> and potential fame they can squeeze from the forums.


Not everyone goes there for postcount+. Plus, not counting posts there would essentially fix it.


----------



## Tarvos

> Entertainment value is relative to the person enjoying it.


unfortunately we are with 1000 people on a board not just Lucas755 and on the whole this kind of entertainment can be practiced elsewhere and better with the same enjoyment value. on the whole, if you want to play these games, go to a games forum where you can play it all day.


----------



## Dewgong

Watershed said:
			
		

> go to a games forum where you can play it all day.


Exactly. Why do you guys have to do it here? (by guys, you know who I mean.)



EeveeSkitty said:


> You can sort of tell it's the same post...unless you're blind or something.


You infuriate me sometimes.


----------



## ZimD

Why _can't_ we do it here? Give me ONE reason why we should have to leave because you don't like our entertainment. We have a right to enjoy ourselves. If you don't like it, nobody is making you do it, look at it, or even stay. We shouldn't have to stop doing what we enjoy just because some people don't like it. I think these three threads are all incredibly stupid, but I didn't tell those who enjoyed them to delete it or leave and take it somewhere else. (The last one, yes, I did post in and say to delete, but that's only because the exact same was done to US vs. World and all other counting games, so that one shouldn't be treated any differently.)

Stop acting like your entertainment is so much better than ours better than ours that you have the fucking right to say that we should leave just because of it. Stop saying we should leave if we want to enjoy htat. You like your shit, and that's fine with me. I like my shit, and that's fine with me, too. It should be fine with you, but I guess it's not. I don't care who likes what as long as it doesn't affect somebody else, and I don't get why the fuck you do. Please give me one reason why anybody should have to leave beacuse of what they like. Then, please give me a reason why we should have to leave instead of you. I don't want "read vee's post" or anything like that, I don't want a reason why you think ours is worse. I want a reason why you think that anyone should have to leave for what entertains them, and a reason why you shouldn't and we should.


----------



## Evolutionary

Yes I guess it's like telling the artists here to go to Deviantart for art like stuff.


----------



## Tarvos

Eevee said:


> The lag is a red herring being used as a convenient practical excuse.
> 
> The issue here is the *quality of the forums*.  Posting useless garbage does not improve the forums (and is, in fact, _actually against the rules_).
> 
> People using "but it's fun!!" and "you can just ignore it" and "what harm does it do" as rationales are not trying to improve the forums; they are interested only in _themselves_ and what few seconds of bland entertainment and potential fame they can squeeze from the forums.
> 
> I wish you guys could at least get our point of view here rather than trying to rationalize why something with no point (and that takes no effort) belongs on _discussion_ forums where it will be saved _forever_.  Why can't this crap go in IRC or IM?  If you're bored, why can't you try to start a real conversation about something?


Zim, EeveeSkitty, this is why. I am going to repost this post over and over until you actually bother to get your head out of your ass and read what probably the most intelligent member on the board has to say. This post, his previous post, it sums it all up.


----------



## Valor

Zim Del Invasor said:


> Why _can't_ we do it here? Give me ONE reason why we should have to leave because you don't like our entertainment. We have a right to enjoy ourselves. If you don't like it, nobody is making you do it, look at it, or even stay. We shouldn't have to stop doing what we enjoy just because some people don't like it. I think these three threads are all incredibly stupid, but I didn't tell those who enjoyed them to delete it or leave and take it somewhere else. (The last one, yes, I did post in and say to delete, but that's only because the exact same was done to US vs. World and all other counting games, so that one shouldn't be treated any differently.)
> 
> Stop acting like your entertainment is so much better than ours better than ours that you have the fucking right to say that we should leave just because of it. Stop saying we should leave if we want to enjoy htat. You like your shit, and that's fine with me. I like my shit, and that's fine with me, too. It should be fine with you, but I guess it's not. I don't care who likes what as long as it doesn't affect somebody else, and I don't get why the fuck you do. Please give me one reason why anybody should have to leave beacuse of what they like. Then, please give me a reason why we should have to leave instead of you. I don't want "read vee's post" or anything like that, I don't want a reason why you think ours is worse. I want a reason why you think that anyone should have to leave for what entertains them, and a reason why you shouldn't and we should.


Your wall of text translates to:



> Angst angst angst You're oppressing me swear swear swear Why do I have to change putz putz putz


We're not telling you to leave. We're telling you to start posting better quality stuff because the current crap is absolute garbage.

FYI Topics made in the name of Lulz, when done properly, are actually full of lulz. Hence the name, Lulz.


----------



## Evolutionary

I get the impression that the opposes want to get rid of Forum Games altogether. 

If it's 'get rid of some numbers threads and make some better ones' I might go with it...


----------



## ZimD

They _do_ want to get rid of FG altogether. Some do, anyway.

Also, for us, Forum Games can be full of lulz. Why do you think you have the right to decide what entertainment is better quality than something else? I've already read Eevee's post. I DO participate in some of what you consider to be an actual conversation. Some actual conversation did go on in the counting threads, but I do agree that those were spammy and, after thinking about it, I agree with their removal.

What I don't agree with is that you think that an entire board should be deleted just because you don't agree with the entertainment. You say it's because it's about the quality of the forums. How does our entertainment in one board affect the overall quality of the forums? Why is FG worse quality?

Stop just quoting a post I already read. Reading it more isn't going to change my mind. You quoting it more is only going to make me less likely to change my mind. I've read that post, that doesn't mean I agree. Explain to me how my entertainment is lower quality and should be removed, and how doing so would benefit the forums as a whole, especially with how much it would upset some members.

Also, please don't condescend me by saying my posts are simply that. If I said what I thought a lot of your side's posts essentially are, I'm sure you'd get angry and I might get in trouble, so don't do it to me.


----------



## Retsu

Zim Del Invasor said:


> Also, for us, Forum Games can be full of lulz.


Stopped reading here. You are fucking _proving Eevee's point_.


----------



## Lucas₇₅₅

Valor said:


> FYI Topics made in the name of Lulz, when done properly, are actually *full of lulz.* Hence the name, Lulz.





Zim Del Invasor said:


> Also, for us, Forum Games can be *full of lulz*.



I believe he was referencing this.


----------



## ZimD

How am I proving his point? It's fun for me. It isn't for you. It doesn't affect the quality of the rest of the forums. How would the forums be better if you deleted the most popular board? Why is it such a bad thing that people like it? If it's the board that has the most posts, then obviously people like it, so why do you want to get rid of it? (Or, it was the most popular, until some threads were deleted.)

Why do you think that just because for you it's lower quality it's a good thing to get rid of it? What about angering people and getting rid of something you don't like will solve the forums?

And yes, I was referencing that.


----------



## surskitty

Butterfree's server is robust.

Post entirely useless crap elsewhere, please.


----------



## StyliBoy

I don't exactly think that it's useless crap. Personally, I think that ASB is crap, but I don't go around asking mods to delete the forum because _other people actually like it_! 
Now, you may not like the Forum Games, and that's fine with me, but that gives you no right to call it useless crap. It also gives you no right to delete some of the threads there. 
Why don't you delete the dead ones? I mean, if no one's posting in them, then they're just unneeded, and nobody will care if you delete them.


----------



## surskitty

I hadn't known that a thread with 17k posts of people counting that brought down the forum for half an hour _isn't_ useless crap!


also they don't cause harm if they're dead.  :|


----------



## ZimD

I think the three threads I linked to and ASB are utterly pointless crap, can they be deleted too? (I do agree with the deletion of US vs. World, though.)

Also, I think that just deleting dead ones is a good idea. At least do that before you delete the ones that are still active that people like.


----------



## StyliBoy

I didn't say US vs. World didn't have to be deleted. (It _was_ getting too big)

I'm saying you guys are talking about how all the Forum Games are crap. I don't think so, and a lot of other people feel the same way.


----------



## Tarvos

I think removing it would do zero harm to the forum because people would be forced to actually post something worthwhile (something scarce).


----------



## StyliBoy

Wow. Well, I believe then that we should get rid of all social groups that have Watershed in them because he's weird

See how that sounds stupid? This isn't my opinion at all because I don't know you, and I don't mean a word of it, but I say it anyway. That's what you're doing. You don't know if people are posting worthwhile stuff in there. If they aren't, then you can go ahead and delete them. 

If you don't like the Forum Games, you don't have to be here. Or better yet, you can just ignore it and we'll all live happily ever after...


----------



## Valor

StyliBoy said:


> Wow. Well, I believe then that we should get rid of all social groups that have Watershed in them because he's weird
> 
> See how that sounds stupid?


Yeah. Because you just posted something "lol so random".

Too easy to counter. Give me a harder one.


----------



## StyliBoy

Valor said:


> Yeah. Because you just posted something "lol so random".


Haha. That's wasn't the point. The point was you shouldn't judge a book by it's cover. And even if you look inside and don't like it, that doesn't mean that everyone has to not be able to like it. 

That, my friend, is not democracy. And democracy seems to be the best type of government, considering there aren't many monarchies in power, and communism is only in China, North Korea, and possibly a few other countries I don't know. (Not in high school yet). Maybe some other governments, too, but democracy is most prevalent.


----------



## FerrousLucario

Just saying, but... if I were you, I'd try to think of an alternative way to do your Forum Games stuff instead of arguing your case.

... I thought democracy had to do with voting. :(


----------



## Tarvos

StyliBoy said:


> Wow. Well, I believe then that we should get rid of all social groups that have Watershed in them because he's weird


Thanks for reversing the argument wrongly.



> See how that sounds stupid? This isn't my opinion at all because I don't know you, and I don't mean a word of it, but I say it anyway. That's what you're doing. You don't know if people are posting worthwhile stuff in there. If they aren't, then you can go ahead and delete them.


I do, I used to post in them when I was 14. Then I grew up. I know what these threads consist of. But it's not contributing to the forum. That is my point, and Eevee's, and I wonder why reading is so difficult for you?



> If you don't like the Forum Games, you don't have to be here. Or better yet, you can just ignore it and we'll all live happily ever after...


This forum doesn't quite revolve around Forum Games, for if it did, I'd be at the wrong forum.


----------



## surskitty

StyliBoy said:


> Haha. That's wasn't the point. The point was you shouldn't judge a book by it's cover. And even if you look inside and don't like it, that doesn't mean that everyone has to not be able to like it.
> 
> That, my friend, is not democracy. And democracy seems to be the best type of government, considering there aren't many monarchies in power, and communism is only in China, North Korea, and possibly a few other countries I don't know. (Not in high school yet). Maybe some other governments, too, but democracy is most prevalent.


Where did you ever get the impression that this forum is a democracy?

I don't think anyone decided HEY WE WANT BUTTERFREE TO BE THE ADMIN and somehow I really don't think anyone votes on who gets banned!


----------



## nyuu

StyliBoy said:


> Haha. That's wasn't the point. The point was you shouldn't judge a book by it's cover. And even if you look inside and don't like it, that doesn't mean that everyone has to not be able to like it.
> 
> That, my friend, is not democracy. And democracy seems to be the best type of government, considering there aren't many monarchies in power, and communism is only in China, North Korea, and possibly a few other countries I don't know. (Not in high school yet). Maybe some other governments, too, but democracy is most prevalent.


This forum isn't a democracy.
edit: also, why the dim view of governments that aren't democracies? democracies aren't immune to sucking. For that matter, democracies aren't the be all and end all of "free."


----------



## Zuu

Zim Del Invasor said:


> Why _can't_ we do it here? Give me ONE reason why we should have to leave because you don't like our entertainment. We have a right to enjoy ourselves. If you don't like it, nobody is making you do it, look at it, or even stay. We shouldn't have to stop doing what we enjoy just because some people don't like it. I think these three threads are all incredibly stupid, but I didn't tell those who enjoyed them to delete it or leave and take it somewhere else. (The last one, yes, I did post in and say to delete, but that's only because the exact same was done to US vs. World and all other counting games, so that one shouldn't be treated any differently.)
> 
> Stop acting like your entertainment is so much better than ours better than ours that you have the fucking right to say that we should leave just because of it. Stop saying we should leave if we want to enjoy htat. You like your shit, and that's fine with me. I like my shit, and that's fine with me, too. It should be fine with you, but I guess it's not. I don't care who likes what as long as it doesn't affect somebody else, and I don't get why the fuck you do. Please give me one reason why anybody should have to leave beacuse of what they like. Then, please give me a reason why we should have to leave instead of you. I don't want "read vee's post" or anything like that, I don't want a reason why you think ours is worse. I want a reason why you think that anyone should have to leave for what entertains them, and a reason why you shouldn't and we should.


Let me explain to you how the threads you're pointing out aren't even close to Forum Games in terms of quality.

1) surskitty actually had that problem; she did not make it up for the lulz. Others took it as something humorous and posted thusly. Also, people actually had to read through the entire topic in order to post, meaning that each post actually had value to the thread. 

2) That club I'm half and half on. While I admit that it's a tad silly, you still have to read the posts before yours unlike in most Forum Games where the value of previous posts don't matter.

3) That was a parody of previous forum games, as an example of how stupid and pointless they really are. Did you really think it was serious? ~__~

Summary of the rest of your post "wahhh wahhh baww i use curse words wahh" do you realize how dumb you sound? You're refusing to actually listen to Eevee. You're too dead set on "stop sucking our fun up!!1!" to actually realize what he's trying to say. Forum Games does not contribute to the quality of the forums. There is no discussion, there is no value. It is counting (!!), and you don't have to actually read but one (1) post in order to post, which means most posts that are made are actually only read once, which means it is a stupid waste of space. 

Oh, and by the way, the mods will do what they think is best for the forums (preserving the quality). If they think quality is suffering because of idiotic threads in forum games (it is), then _there is nothing you can do about it._ We're not _forcing_ you to leave, but we're saying there has to be an end to the stupidity that is rushing forth from some members' keyboards. 



			
				StyliBoy said:
			
		

> If you don't like the Forum Games, you don't have to be here. Or better yet, you can just ignore it and we'll all live happily ever after...


Or you can listen to us when we say that when people think it's okay to post mindless dribble in Forum Games, they'll think it'll be fine to post mindless dribble elsewhere in the forums, which wastes space and is a SUPER TOXIC FORCE to the forums just like Eevee is. It'll just make the quality of the forums suffer. [Example: That long-ass introduction thread which, wow, hasn't been an introduction thread for a really long time and is filled with spam.]



			
				StyliBoy said:
			
		

> Haha. That's wasn't the point. The point was you shouldn't judge a book by it's cover. And even if you look inside and don't like it, that doesn't mean that everyone has to not be able to like it.


Shouldn't judge a book... what? Have you confused that with another saying? @_@ We're not judging Forum Games by its cover - we've actually gone in and read the junk you're posting. SURPRISE! Betcha didn't expect that! That's why we're still saying it's awful.


----------



## ZimD

Watershed said:


> I think removing it would do zero harm to the forum because people would be forced to actually post something worthwhile (something scarce).


They can still post other things now. Deleting it wouldn't change the fact that Forum Gamers can post worthwhile things, and it wouldn't force them to. It would do harm to the people, in that they would feel like they were being treated unfairly, because their board would be taken away. If people are willing to continue arguing, doesn't that show that they would care if it was gone? What do you gain from it being gone?

Deleting the most pointless games like counting ones would be a good thing, and you've already done that. I don't see why we need to delete all of them. We should just delete the dead ones, because the ones that are left all rely on the last poster more than just relying on a number that they post, so they aren't just pointless or unrelated to each other.

Honestly, if people are enjoying it, I don't see why you care. It doesn't affect the quality of the rest of the forum, and you don't have any more right than I do, or any other member, to decide that it's worse quality than something else.



EDIT due to being ninjaed:

Dezzuu:

1) Even though she didn't make it up, the posts in it were still pointless, and shouldn't be treated like they're better. Even if they are more related, the point that I was trying to make was that I didn't like it and thought it was pointless but didn't act like that made it pointless, or that it had to be deleted.

2) Even if they are related, as I said before, I was just saying that I didn't like it and considered it to be pointless, but that doesn't mean it is.

3) No, I didn't think it was serious, and because of that, I think it was even worse, but I still didn't feel the need to go in and act like it was a bad thread. I posted in it, but simply because it was breaking the rules just as much as, if not more than, the serious counting games.

Just because I use curse words doesn't mean I use them for the sake of using them. Maybe I was angry and they were just the words I felt I should have used. Maybe I was actually upset enough to use them. The only reason I'm not know is that I know I'll just get mocked again because of the words I choose to use. _Not all the threads are counting._ Also, not everybody just reads the post before theirs. I go through and read the posts before mine because they amuse me. 

Being a mod doesn't automatically make you right. It doesn't automatically mean what you do is definitely best for the forum, it just means that you think it is. It doesn't make your opinions correct, it makes them have more power and be more valued by most members.

I know I'm not being forced to leave, but deleting an entire board and forcing me to go somewhere else if I want to have that fun is still bad. I understand that some members might think that what they post in one board will be okay in all of them, and I don't think that's a good thing. Just because it might happen doesn't mean it will happen. I don't think that the kinds of posts that are there should be allowed in another board. If anyone starts posting in another board like they do there, then they should be punished, and they'll learn from the punishment, not do it again, and their posts will probably be deleted, which is what I want.

I don't want Forum Games style posts to go anywhere else in the forum. I don't think that they belong everywhere, and if anyone does, I'm not attempting to justify that. I think that they should be allowed in one board, the Forum Games board. Just because I like Forum Games, that doesn't mean I want to see members post that kind of stuff anywhere outside of it. I definitely agree that it wastes space. I like something in one board, that doesn't mean i want it showing up everywhere else too.


----------



## Dewgong

Dezzuu speaks the truth.



EeveeSkitty said:


> Yes I guess it's like telling the artists here to go to Deviantart for art like stuff.


No it's not. Art is discussion, posting numbers isn't, as already established.


----------



## Zuu

Yeah, because you know, posting art that they actually took TIME and EFFORT on is totally comparable to spamming up forum games~~


----------



## surskitty

my coughing cupboard thread was posted because I actually did sneeze candy, thank you very much, and I have a desire to punch people who believed otherwise in the face.  Yes, it is an inherently humourous complaint and certainly not as important as a lot of other threads in the area, but "one of my classmates mocked me slightly and now I want to cry" isn't exactly that important, either, and no one ever said that every Coughing Cupboard thread ever had to be important.  At least mine was moderately interesting, I guess.



How does "You're Banned" rely on previous posters?  I wouldn't even be surprised if people kept repeating the same ones.  I don't particularly see why any forum games thread that neither requires nor particularly expects interaction should exist; it's a waste of space.



Also, since you seem to be missing that point: *dead threads do not tax the server as much as large and active threads do*.  It's querying through each post that hurts it, not its existence in general.


----------



## Zuu

So how about instead of arguing with us in a futile effort to get us to change our minds you could be making that forum games social group like someone suggested and /do/ something about it.


----------



## Vladimir Putin's LJ

what the hell happened to the obssessive scribblers club


----------



## Kratos Aurion

Spoon seems to have deleted it, presumably to do what has been suggested in this thread and move it to either the artists' lounge or a social group. It would've been nice if she'd waited before doing that so people could recover things if they needed to, though. Could a mod with more power than I have maybe undelete it so that people at least have a chance to get things if they need to?


----------



## surskitty

I'll go undelete and move it to the Artist's Lounge.


----------



## Vladimir Putin's LJ

thank you surkoots


----------



## Evolutionary

Why do people say Forum Games has no discussion if we discuss things?


----------



## ultraviolet

ES said:
			
		

> Why do people say Forum Games has no discussion if we discuss things?


Why do you not read the thread?

This has been addressed _so many _times. :|


----------



## Dewgong

Why do people not read the thread if they're posting?


----------



## Evolutionary

Yes but people keep repeating it.


----------



## Tarvos

So you read it, smartie pants.


----------



## Arylett Charnoa

Watershed said:


> it's directed at people like Cirrus and Arylett Dawnsborough and co. who don't understand Eevee's point about quality


Umm... I didn't even post in this thread (until now), how do you know my opinion on things? But I digress, it's not that "people like Cirrus and Arylett Dawnsborough" don't UNDERSTAND Eevee's point, it's simply that we disagree with it. Related...



Watershed said:


> Zim, EeveeSkitty, this is why. I am going to repost this post over and over until you actually bother to get your head out of your ass and read what probably the most intelligent member on the board has to say. This post, his previous post, it sums it all up.


I have read his post, many times as a matter of fact. And it still has not convinced me. In fact, repeating it over and over is quite unlikely to convince anyone. It feels downright degrading, like you're insulting our intelligence. It would be like if I quoted Zim over and over, would that make you any more likely to agree? No.




Valor said:


> Your wall of text translates to:
> 
> 
> 
> We're not telling you to leave. We're telling you to start posting better quality stuff because the current crap is absolute garbage.
> 
> FYI Topics made in the name of Lulz, when done properly, are actually full of lulz. Hence the name, Lulz.


I personally find the Lulz to be quite a unfunny topic and did not find it entertaining whatsoever. But that's my opinion. And isn't that your opinion too? That the Lulz is, quote, "full of lulz"? Why should your opinion decide what is entertaining and what's not for the whole forums? You wish to get rid of Forum Games... because in your opinion it is "crap" and "absolute garbage". You know, I don't really like the Lulz. What if I asked for it to be deleted? What if I asked for all threads I found to be "worthless crap" to be deleted? The point is, your opinion does not necessarily apply to others. 

Also I don't believe you're interpreting Zim's point correctly. His point is not "Angst angst angst You're oppressing me swear swear swear Why do I have to change putz putz putz". It was just like I said, you shouldn't really think that your opinions apply to the whole forums.



Dezzuu said:


> So how about instead of arguing with us in a futile effort to get us to change our minds you could be making that forum games social group like someone suggested and /do/ something about it.


Who are you guys to have any authority what happens to the forums? As you said, these forums are not a democracy. If Butterfree wants the games gone, she will get rid of them. But I do believe she has expressed the fact that she won't. So really, why are you arguing with us? She said they were staying. It's a huge part of the forums, wouldn't moving it to usergroups still cause lag anyway? I know nothing much of this sort of thing, but what exempts usergroups from taking up space on the forum servers? It's really the same thing. 

I understand why you view it as spam, there are generally no real discussions in Forum Games. However Forum Games are probably not spam. They have entertainment value to what seems to be a lot of people in the forums (like Zim said, why else would they have so many posts). And really, they're not hurting you at all. In fact, they're not hurting anyone. And you will next refer me to the US vs. World, which lagged the forums. I personally agree with its deletion (in fact, I don't really mind the fact that it was deleted. It was lagging the forums, why not?), as well with the idea of deleting inactive forum games that nobody posts in anymore. As long as one prevents threads from getting as large as the US vs. World, why can't we keep Forum Games? I I know what you're going to say next: "They take up the servers, waste of space! That's harming the forums themselves!" These forums serve only one purpose, and that is to entertain people. Why else do people come here? Perhaps to have a discussion, but people come here to have fun. In their free time. And Forum Games is just the forums serving their purpose, providing entertainment to the people that like them. Just as the Insanity forums provide entertainment to people that like them, just as the Miscellaneous and so on and so forth. And to get rid of them simply because they don't entertain you or a few other people, simply based in your opinion (that they are "worthless crap") when others do enjoy them, is really not a plausible enough reason to get rid of them.


----------



## Tarvos

Quality control is a good enough reason to get rid of anything. We don't use NES anymore, we have the Wii now? Why are you advocating being stuck in a silly repetetive cycle?



> Umm... I didn't even post in this thread (until now), how do you know my opinion on things? But I digress, it's not that "people like Cirrus and Arylett Dawnsborough" don't UNDERSTAND Eevee's point, it's simply that we disagree with it. Related...


I have yet to see a single dissection of Eevee's post by someone that was sound. Plus, your opinion isn't hard to fathom. You disagree? On what grounds? By spouting the same bs all over again that we've already debunked? I don't think you've actually properly understood it. I want you to read the posts he made, make the logical connections in your mind, and maybe you can fathom why we're saying what we're saying



> I have read his post, many times as a matter of fact. And it still has not convinced me. In fact, repeating it over and over is quite unlikely to convince anyone. It feels downright degrading, like you're insulting our intelligence. It would be like if I quoted Zim over and over, would that make you any more likely to agree? No.


I'm not insulting your intelligence. I'm not sure, quite simply, whether people bother to read. Apparently you read but just try to cop-out. From the posts you people have been making you have been unable to make any argument than "BUT IT HAS ENTERTAINMENT VALUE" which is of course complete bollocks. Pissing you people off who think everybody should live in cotton candy land has entertainment value to me, seeing you get bent all in a knot because your precious game is taken away (and it isn't because you can still play it anywhere else and you only need one post as Eevee said). We're trying to promote some quality posting here and when someone tells you that you ought to comply with a bit of a standard, you get all defensive about freedom and act like a precocious two year old crying out for Mummy.

This is the blatant bollocks that I am pissed off with. It's no wonder I don't take much of the forum seriously.


----------



## Music Dragon

Watershed said:


> Quality control is a good enough reason to get rid of anything. We don't use NES anymore, we have the Wii now? Why are you advocating being stuck in a silly repetetive cycle?


Of course, this only works if we assume that everyone enjoys the Wii more than the NES.


----------



## Tarvos

Music Dragon said:


> Of course, this only works if we assume that everyone enjoys the Wii more than the NES.


I am pretty sure you can name any modern day gaming console and people will tell you that it is objectively better than the NES, saleswise, performancewise, technically, consumer opinionwise, etc. I doubt that would be hard to figure out.


----------



## Music Dragon

Watershed said:


> I am pretty sure you can name any modern day gaming console and people will tell you that it is objectively better than the NES, saleswise, performancewise, technically, consumer opinionwise, etc. I doubt that would be hard to figure out.


Sure, sure! But there's always the odd person who prefers the old and outdated over the new and advanced, even if it is of lower quality. After all, the purpose of high quality is to satisfy the user! People don't always enjoy what they're supposed to enjoy.


----------



## Tarvos

yeah but there's a place and time for everything and this forum needs a bit less place and time for counting threads


----------



## Music Dragon

Watershed said:


> yeah but there's a place and time for everything and this forum needs a bit less place and time for counting threads


I could go ahead and bring up the whole "people are enjoying themselves and it's not doing any harm if you quarantine the crap in a single forum where nobody'll ever have to worry about it again" thing, but then you'd go DAMP on me and point me to Eevee's post. I assure you, though, I _did_ read it.

Still, improving the "quality" of the forums equates to improving the degree to which its members are pleased with it; obviously people are pretty divided on what is satisfactory. True "quality" is necessarily subjective; there is no absolute rule that says "this is worthless garbage, while this is useful and should be kept". It all depends on what you want out of the forums, and what you personally find enjoyable. Obviously a lot of people here seem to find Forum Games terribly amusing - and would, most likely, consider the quality of the forums significantly improved if certain "snarky" veteran members disappeared.

TCoD isn't a democracy. TCoD isn't a geniocracy, either. TCoD is a benevolent dictatorship. I'm aware that plenty of members - me included - find Forum Games utterly pointless and would rather see some posts worth reading. But then again, plenty of members enjoy spouting garbage, too. Much as I hate to say this - because it makes me sound like some disgusting diplomat toady - Butterfree owns these forums, and her opinion is the only one that actually matters. She decides what the purpose of these forums is.

Don't get me wrong here! I'm not particularly appreciative of all that spam, either. But I'm also painfully aware of the fact that my opinion isn't more important than anyone else's around here.


----------



## Tarvos

I'm very aware of it. I just don't really post much anywhere thanks to it except where I deem it proper to post.


----------



## Valor

Arylett Dawnsborough said:


> I personally find the Lulz to be quite a unfunny topic and did not find it entertaining whatsoever. But that's my opinion. And isn't that your opinion too? That the Lulz is, quote, "full of lulz"? Why should your opinion decide what is entertaining and what's not for the whole forums? You wish to get rid of Forum Games... because in your opinion it is "crap" and "absolute garbage". You know, I don't really like the Lulz. What if I asked for it to be deleted? What if I asked for all threads I found to be "worthless crap" to be deleted? The point is, your opinion does not necessarily apply to others.


Exceeeeept I actually note what is spam and not worthy of being read by the average human. You see, it doesn't matter if there IS discussion going on when a huge majority of it is just pointless blather or requires very little thought.

On particular note, look at the first page of Forum Games. There are six topics right now that have _over 1000 posts._ That means those topics have over 50 pages. You following me? Now, let's take a look at the "Never-ending D/P Cheat" topic.



> ...accidentally farts while doing this, and the ice beam turns into fire. But then the ice beam-gone-fire-fart-powered suddenly...


Hmm, yes, lots of thought put into this topic. Just post some random directions. The only post that requires any thought is the first one, where the glitch starts. Rather than actually looking at the game and using game situations to help explain the cheat, all it does is list these "lol so random" moments followed by an ellipse. Doesn't even need the poster to look at the last post.

Oh, but wait, you say. That's only ONE topic. Well, surely you have me there! Curses, I shouldn't be telling people to start posting better if I only have one topic. Surely the most popular topic, "You're Banned", is a redeeming factor!



> You're banned because i'm scared of that happening now. I was a fucking butterfree!


Hm, nope. Guess not.



> Also I don't believe you're interpreting Zim's point correctly. His point is not "Angst angst angst You're oppressing me swear swear swear Why do I have to change putz putz putz". It was just like I said, you shouldn't really think that your opinions apply to the whole forums.


Actually, it was rather accurate. Probably saved some people quite some time by condensing his entire post without losing context. A little angst here, a little HARDCORE SWEARING there, and lots of whining.

Oh, speaking of Zim:



> Also, please don't condescend me by saying my posts are simply that. If I said what I thought a lot of your side's posts essentially are, I'm sure you'd get angry and I might get in trouble, so don't do it to me.


No, I'd laugh at you for trying to mock me when all you did was just flatter me. No points for you for saying you would do that, either.



> Also, for us, Forum Games can be full of lulz.


You obviously have no clue what the Lulz are and all you're doing is making yourself look bad by trying to look like you know what they are. Please bow your head in shame and make an exit on the left or right side of the room.


----------



## Ruby

If we all agree that spam has to be deleted, as I think we do, the only thing left to be settled is what to count as spam.  The various other tiffs - about democracy and whether Forum Games is fun, what caused the server crashes, and so on - are not relevant or needed.  If you are going to speak in this thread at all, answer the one question that's worth answering: What is spam and does it include Forum Games?


----------



## Lucas₇₅₅

How is it that these "non-quality pieces of garbage" affect anything but the forum games themselves? I see no reason why the forum games should be deleted, other than lag. Which, in fact, could be managed, by wiping the threads every so often (By a hack or otherwise). Does this "garbage" affect anyone? Are you even forced acknowledge it? The thought that goes into the posts is irrelevant. The thought that goes into other posts is not. So if someone posts in the forum games with no thought in their posts, comes out, and posts other things with the same amount of thought as they used in posts before they went in, what harm does it do to anything? Does it do any at all?


----------



## Valor

We shouldn't _have_ to wipe the Forum Games every so often. That will just keep it as a repeating problem.

_What sense would that make._


----------



## Ruby

Lucas, do you agree that all spam has to be deleted?


----------



## Lucas₇₅₅

I do; But I also think that the definition and guidelines of what spam is varies by person, so it's pretty hard to do anything with it without upsetting someone.


----------



## Ruby

What I am saying is that if something is spam it doesn't matter how many people are affected by it, or how many people like it, or how many people acknowledge it.  What matters is that it is spam, and that is all.


----------



## surskitty

> You are also spamming if you make a post or thread that is directed personally at only a very few people and has nothing of interest for anybody else. Instead of actually posting that, you might as well simply send the person or people a PM instead of clogging up the forums with it.


Most of forum games fits this.  None of it is interesting to read; any given post is of interest to the one person it's directed at.


----------



## spaekle

> I do; But I also think that the definition and guidelines of what spam is varies by person, so it's pretty hard to do anything with it without upsetting someone.


Eh... well, I can understand forum games being entertaining to some extent, but this I'm gonna have to disagree with. There needs to be some sort of standard on post quality, or there'd hardly be a point at all to calling this a 'discussion forum'.

and, well, going by what the rules officially _say_ about spam:

Edit: actually surskitty brought this up while I was typing this post but what the hey. 



> Rule #7: Don't spam.
> *A post is spam if it is of no real value to the thread.* [...]


Well, I guess posts in forum games have value to the thread as long as they're posted to contribute to the game, but I think this is more of a matter of whether the thread is spam in the first place.



> *You are also spamming if you make a post or thread that is directed personally at only a very few people and has nothing of interest for anybody else. Instead of actually posting that, you might as well simply send the person or people a PM instead of clogging up the forums with it.
> *


^ This paragraph almost sounds like it's echoing a lot of this thread. :V 



> *Any thread that has no real topic of discussion for other members is also spam.* For example, if you made a thread that contained only the words "BLUEBERRY PIE!", no sensible discussion will ever arise from it; we don't want the forums cluttered up with such stupidity.


Another interesting point I bolded there! 

I'm still in favor of the social group thing, by the way.


----------



## Lucas₇₅₅

But still, about it saying "PM the people involved" and "little value to other people," there may not be a whole lot of people who post in the forum games, but there are a lot, I believe. Is there any way to see how many individual people have posted there?


----------



## Zuu

It doesn't matter how many are posting. What matters is how many posts are made and what value they have.


----------



## surskitty

Forum games as a whole I can understand keeping.  I would, however, like most of the ones that have _no value to anyone other than the one or three people it's directed at_ to be nixed.  Most posts in You're Banned are not particularly witty or interesting and quite probably are repeated; all of the rating threads are of interest only to the person being rated at the time and are frequently simply circlejerks; the never-ending stories rarely make sense as a comprehensive whole and so could be viewed as a failure....

I'm not saying KILL ALL FORUM GAMES.  It could be interesting and relevant to someone other than the one person any given post is directed at!  But it never is.


----------



## Lucas₇₅₅

So, if there were interesting, all-involving, non-random/spammy games, you would be okay with them?


----------



## surskitty

If there were interesting games that involved more than the poster either directly before or after, then yes, I would.


----------



## Negrek

surskitty said:


> Forum games as a whole I can understand keeping.  I would, however, like most of the ones that have _no value to anyone other than the one or three people it's directed at_ to be nixed.  Most posts in You're Banned are not particularly witty or interesting and quite probably are repeated; all of the rating threads are of interest only to the person being rated at the time and are frequently simply circlejerks; the never-ending stories rarely make sense as a comprehensive whole and so could be viewed as a failure....
> 
> I'm not saying KILL ALL FORUM GAMES.  It could be interesting and relevant to someone other than the one person any given post is directed at!  But it never is.


In that case, perhaps it would be best to have some sort of moderation queue for someone wishing to get a new game approved? Or alternatively just be more aggressive about locking game threads that aren't up to snuff. However, since I don't really feel like familiarizing myself with what sorts of threads there are in FG right now, I don't know if what you're proposing would actually, in effect, be shutting down that forum--that is, whether there currently exist any games that meet such criteria.

I also have to say that the idea of moving forum games to social groups is a very poor idea given the way that social groups are set up. They basically act like uncategorized threads, with the most recent ones being at the top, with no options (so far as I'm aware) for sticking or segregating them in any way. If someone wanted to have a social group for an actual club or discussion group or something of that nature, then it would most likely get buried immediately by all of the games going on; given the activity in forum games versus the rest of the forums, it's likely that discussion groups, which might get one or two posts a day, or activity even less frequently, would usually be pushed down to page two or three quite rapidly.

You could say that this wouldn't be a problem because people who have joined a social group can just get to it from their profile rather than going to the main social group index, but what about someone who is looking to join a new group and wants to see what's out there? They'd have to get through several pages of stuff before find the actual groups, or go surfing a bunch of user profiles instead. Also, while you'd be reducing *counted* posts from games, you wouldn't be reducing the amount of actual forum content, just displacing the games posts. It wouldn't be eliminating clutter--just moving it somewhere where, I feel, it would be much more of a hassle to work around. I mean, you can set forums you don't like/care about to ignore (uh I think that hack's still there, anyway), but if you can ignore social groups, I'm sure you'd have to do it individually, which means you'd have to block every frikkin' game group, or at least the popular ones, which is rather inefficient.

So wow, that got rather long. Uh, long story short forum games in social groups = bad idea.


----------



## surskitty

I haven't looked through _everything_ in Forum Games, but everything I can think of offhand involves -- at most! -- the person directly before and/or after, and even then, not particularly much.  So it'd be shutting down what's currently there, partly because people seem to think that there's no forum games _other_ than "POST SOMETHING ABOUT THE NEXT/PREVIOUS POSTER" things.

I don't think the moderation queue's used for much, but simply being more aggressive about it would work.


Moving forum games to social groups would be silly, yes; moving some clubs to social groups or simply to other forums where they would belong, not so much.


----------



## #1 bro

surskitty, can you give an example of a forum game that _doesn't_ involve only one other person? I'm drawing a blank. :|


----------



## Evolutionary

We can keep Rating Avatar/Sig/Usertitle(I don't really care about this)?


----------



## surskitty

Zeta Reticuli said:


> surskitty, can you give an example of a forum game that _doesn't_ involve only one other person? I'm drawing a blank. :|


So am I, but apparently they're a communal activity!  Who knew.





EeveeSkitty said:


> We can keep Rating Avatar/Sig/Usertitle(I don't really care about this)?


Why, so people can post "10/10" for ages?  All of the pages I looked at were just numbers and completely useless.  :(


----------



## Music Dragon

Ruby said:


> If we all agree that spam has to be deleted, as I think we do, the only thing left to be settled is what to count as spam.  The various other tiffs - about democracy and whether Forum Games is fun, what caused the server crashes, and so on - are not relevant or needed.  If you are going to speak in this thread at all, answer the one question that's worth answering: What is spam and does it include Forum Games?


I can only assume that Forum Games as a whole is not part of Butterfree's definition of spam, or she wouldn't have created that forum in the first place.

And by the way, I don't agree that all spam has to be deleted; I'm happy as long as it doesn't get in my way (which is why I have Forum Games on hide). That which is pointless and annoying to me need not necessarily be so to everyone else!

Trying to eliminate everything that you don't personally like is quite selfish.

(And yes, I know all that spam is slowing down the forums and therefore affecting us all, but I was told that was just a red herring.)


----------



## Stardust Dragona

Why can't we have one thread which covers all of the *rate my ___* games? You could have all of them done at once or just ask for a specific one. I don't get why they made a rate my usertitle. Thats a rating game too far.


----------



## Evolutionary

I know, I never go there...

The rating threads are useful for opinions on new avatar/sigs.

I don't even think they should be in forum games and you could always make it compulsory to post improvements and stuff.


----------



## Ruby

Music Dragon said:


> And by the way, I don't agree that all spam has to be deleted; I'm happy as long as it doesn't get in my way (which is why I have Forum Games on hide). That which is pointless and annoying to me need not necessarily be so to everyone else!


This is the most telling thing you said.  I wrote replies to the rest, but they are unnecessary.  If you mean by this that nothing - from outright spam to shock images - should be deleted unless it gets in the way of other people, then the thread of your argument is wholly different from Lucas and Cirrus's.  They don't think Forum Games is spam: you don't mind if Forum Games is spam.  Each requires its own debate, and right now I haven't the time to grapple with either.  All I will say is what has been said already.  Spam quietly rots everywhere even when it looks locked in Forum Games.


----------



## Music Dragon

Ruby said:


> This is the most telling thing you said.  I wrote replies to the rest, but they are unnecessary.  If you mean by this that nothing - from outright spam to shock images - should be deleted unless it gets in the way of other people, then the thread of your argument is completely different from Lucas and Cirrus's.  They don't think Forum Games is spam: you don't mind if Forum Games is spam.  Each requires its own debate, and right now I haven't the time to grapple with either.  All I will say is what has been said already.  Spam quietly rots everywhere even when it looks locked in Forum Games.


Well, I don't want to bother you if you don't have enough time. After all, I imagine there are more important and sensible things to do than discuss silly issues with me - which is eerily reminiscent of a lot of arguments I've seen from people around here! Playing forum games is a meaningless, time-wasting activity that contributes nothing to nothing... People want to replace it with what they call intelligent discussion. What purpose does either _really_ serve...?

But, at least for now, my point stands - neither spam nor shock images are of any actual harm if people never have to see them. The spamming activity in Forum Games is definitely not harmful (again, excepting the slowdowns).

I might change my stance if someone provides an argument that doesn't boil down to "other people's stupidity bugs me".

As for the plague of spam spreading its vile poison beyond the confines of its virtual prison - I'm not so sure, but I guess we'll see.


----------



## Tarvos

As long as you guys keep it in Forum Games it isn't too bad (though most of that forum is bullshit), but I see too much regurgitated crap in other forums as well; and the quality of those boards should be more strictly enforced.


----------



## Eevee

Ruby said:


> This is the most telling thing you said.  I wrote replies to the rest, but they are unnecessary.  If you mean by this that nothing - from outright spam to shock images - should be deleted unless it gets in the way of other people, then the thread of your argument is wholly different from Lucas and Cirrus's.


Is it?  I'm sure seeing a lot of arguments along the lines of "what harm does it do if you don't look at it?" -- and what harm does spam do if I never look at it!

I was going to reply to everything, but this rather well summarizes my main problem with the opposition's main counterpoint.  "You can ignore it" alone _isn't good enough_.


----------



## Lucas₇₅₅

Music Dragon said:


> I might change my stance if someone provides an argument that doesn't boil down to "other people's stupidity bugs me".





Eevee said:


> "You can ignore it" alone _isn't good enough_.


I believe this is what they call a stalemate.


----------



## Ruby

No, I didn't have enough time _at that moment_, MD.



Music Dragon said:


> I might change my stance if someone provides an argument that doesn't boil down to "other people's stupidity bugs me".
> 
> As for the plague of spam spreading its vile poison beyond the confines of its virtual prison - I'm not so sure, but I guess we'll see.


My argument does not boil down to stupidity's bugging me.   If there was a section of TCoD called Forum Memes, where people spent hours posting only joke pictures and trite phrases over and over again thousands of times, even if they never once posted them outside Forum Memes, TCoD's character - it's personality as a community - would change.  TCoD's face would become disfigured.  It might start to look like 4chan's.  Or let us suppose the process happened in reverse.   If we got rid of Miscellaneous Discussion, the Debating Hall, the Laughing Cupboard, the Coughing Cupboard, Writing, and Entertainment, which altogether have fewer posts in them than Forum Games, would it only affect the users who visited those sections often? Would Clubs and Artwork be unchanged?  I do not think so.  You see, you may believe that each section of TCoD is an island that can be ignored.  But they are connected by the people and attitudes travelling between them.  The mere fact that the island of Forum Games exists is enough to change the culture of the archipelago.  Measured in posts, Forum Games is as large as Australia, and just as difficult to ignore - even though, as you say, I don't have to look at it.


----------



## Music Dragon

Eevee said:


> Is it?  I'm sure seeing a lot of arguments along the lines of "what harm does it do if you don't look at it?" -- and what harm does spam do if I never look at it!
> 
> I was going to reply to everything, but this rather well summarizes my main problem with the opposition's main counterpoint.  "You can ignore it" alone _isn't good enough_.


I would love to know _why_, though...



Ruby said:


> No, I didn't have enough time _at that moment_, MD.


Oh! Right. My mistake.



Ruby said:


> My argument does not boil down to stupidity's bugging me.   If there was a section of TCoD called Forum Memes, where people spent hours posting only joke pictures and trite phrases over and over again thousands of times, even if they never once posted them outside Forum Memes, TCoD's character - it's personality as a community - would change.  TCoD's face would become disfigured.  It might start to look like 4chan's.  Or let us suppose the process happened in reverse.   If we got rid of Miscellaneous Discussion, the Debating Hall, the Laughing Cupboard, the Coughing Cupboard, Writing, and Entertainment, which altogether have fewer posts in them than Forum Games, would it only affect the users who visited those sections often? Would Clubs and Artwork be unchanged?  I do not think so.  You see, you may believe that each section of TCoD is an island that can be ignored.  But they are connected by the people and attitudes travelling between them.  The mere fact that the island of Forum Games exists is enough to change the culture of the archipelago.  Measured in posts, Forum Games is as large as Australia, and just as difficult to ignore - even though, as you say, I don't have to look at it.


Hmm. I'm not entirely convinced, but you may very well be right.

When people who play forum games post not-so-thought-through things in other forums, I always attributed that to general immaturity, not negative influences from Forum Games and its frequenters. I don't think Forum Games is what attracts new members to TCoD; we've always had annoying, less-than-intelligent pre-teen members around here, and that's probably not going to change if we get rid of Forum Games. _They're_ not going to change. I think, more than anything, their attitudes are affected by ours towards them!

I'm also perfectly convinced Forum Games has no detrimental effect whatsoever on the minds of our veteran members - in fact, I don't think _any_ half-way mature and intelligent person would be that weak-minded, senior or not.

But yes, "TCoD's face" has quite possibly changed lately, keeping the aforementioned intelligent people from actually joining - I wouldn't know. I don't... get out much, so to speak. Still, I always got the impression that when people speak ill of us elsewhere, it's not because of all the spam; it's because of all the drama...!

I feel a strong aversion to the idea of stripping others of their right to play meaningless games simply because our collective reputation might suffer from it. Again, I wouldn't mind if Butterfree herself removed the games, because these are her forums and she probably has her own idea of what sorts of members she wants. But she's the _only_ one with any real authority; as of now, I'm not going to side with anyone else claiming that we should exterminate Forum Games on the grounds that it's hurting TCoD's outward face, or whatever.

My problem is that you're still being too subjective; there is no _objective_ reason why we should get rid of Forum Games, and no personal opinion is relevant unless it is held by Butterfree. Even if you could prove that the spam is damaging our reputation (which, admittedly, you probably could), it all depends on what kinds of people we want to attract - or, rather, what kinds of people the administrator wants to attract.

After all, your argument could easily be reversed. Perhaps those people who play Forum Games want more people like them to join. Perhaps they are, from their perspective, doing TCoD a favour!

And anyway, if members acting stupidly doesn't bug you - what do you care if our reputation is hurt? It might discourage other intellectuals from joining, but if you want to find intellectuals to talk to, I suggest you come to them, not the other way around.

But hey, here's a novel thought: create your own forums! A place where only the best of the best of TCoD would follow you, where you'd only allow more-or-less intelligent discussion and ban all (pointless) forum games, where you'd _make_ the rules and not just _enforce_ them... That sounds like a good plan, doesn't it? I bet nobody's ever thought of that before! Hoohoo. I'm so clever.

(Bottom line: I'm as stubborn as a mule and I won't budge until Butterfree makes a conclusive statement or you provide me with a _really_ compelling argument.)


----------



## Eevee

Music Dragon said:


> I would love to know _why_, though...


Because your stance means nothing is forbidden.  What's wrong with posting spam?  You can ignore it if you don't like it.  What's wrong with posting porn?  You can ignore it if you don't like it.  What's wrong with posting the pain series?  You can ignore it if you don't like it.  What's wrong with posting advertisements for cheap generic drugs?  You can ignore it if you don't like it.

You should have to defend why what you want to post deserves to be here in the first place.  Everyone else should not have to invent a compelling reason why it specifically _doesn't_.  It's crap, there's no reason for it to be on forums, the end.



Music Dragon said:


> When people who play forum games post not-so-thought-through things in other forums, I always attributed that to general immaturity, not negative influences from Forum Games and its frequenters. I don't think Forum Games is what attracts new members to TCoD; we've always had annoying, less-than-intelligent pre-teen members around here, and that's probably not going to change if we get rid of Forum Games. _They're_ not going to change.


Which is why I said this is ultimately futile.



Music Dragon said:


> I'm also perfectly convinced Forum Games has no detrimental effect whatsoever on the minds of our veteran members


It sure makes me further uninclined to visit the forums.



Music Dragon said:


> My problem is that you're still being too subjective; there is no _objective_ reason why we should get rid of Forum Games


A forum is for discussion.  That is what they are designed for.  That is what the word means.  That is what they have been for thousands of years.  This format is best suited for discussion, and forums are only set up in the first place to foster it.
Forum games are not discussion.
Therefore, these games do not belong on forums.

It's also a tremendous waste of resources to save all of these posts when *nobody* is ever going to read more than the last one in a thread.  They are much more appropriate for something instant and lurky like IRC.



Music Dragon said:


> and no personal opinion is relevant unless it is held by Butterfree. Even if you could prove that the spam is damaging our reputation (which, admittedly, you probably could), it all depends on what kinds of people we want to attract - or, rather, what kinds of people the administrator wants to attract.


Yeah, deferring to someone else's authority sure is easier than actually constructing an argument.



Music Dragon said:


> But hey, here's a novel thought: create your own forums! A place where only the best of the best of TCoD would follow you


Is that what you want?  Everyone in this thread who abhors forum games to leave?


----------



## Music Dragon

Eevee said:


> Because your stance means nothing is forbidden.  What's wrong with posting spam?  You can ignore it if you don't like it.  What's wrong with posting porn?  You can ignore it if you don't like it.  What's wrong with posting the pain series?  You can ignore it if you don't like it.  What's wrong with posting advertisements for cheap generic drugs?  You can ignore it if you don't like it.


Sure. These things already exist, but they don't bother me in the slightest when I don't have to see them.



Eevee said:


> You should have to defend why what you want to post deserves to be here in the first place.  Everyone else should not have to invent a compelling reason why it specifically _doesn't_.  It's crap, there's no reason for it to be on forums, the end.


The reason is that people enjoy it, of course. I thought the general consensus around here was that consenting parties should be able to do whatever they want as long as they don't get in anyone else's way.



Eevee said:


> It sure makes me further uninclined to visit the forums.


Yes, I can tell... But on the other hand, banning Forum Games would make other members less inclined to visit (I assume, since they're so ardently defending it). 



Eevee said:


> A forum is for discussion.  That is what they are designed for.  That is what the word means.  That is what they have been for thousands of years.  This format is best suited for discussion, and forums are only set up in the first place to foster it.
> Forum games are not discussion.
> Therefore, these games do not belong on forums.


Forums were designed for discussion, but that doesn't mean their use is entirely restricted to that. Playing forum games is, apparently, an enjoyable activity that shouldn't bother anyone who chooses not to take part. I still can't see the problem.



Eevee said:


> It's also a tremendous waste of resources to save all of these posts when *nobody* is ever going to read more than the last one in a thread.  They are much more appropriate for something instant and lurky like IRC.


Yes, that's true, even though I think it's pretty close to the red herring. The person to whom the resources in question belong will have to complain, then.




Eevee said:


> Yeah, deferring to someone else's authority sure is easier than actually constructing an argument.


Every argument here is subjective. Your arguments, their arguments - everything is based on opinion, on what we want these forums to be and what kind of activity we want to promote. As has already been said, TCoD is not a democracy, and opinion only matters insofar as it can influence the owner. You want to improve the quality of the forums, but other people would consider it lowered if you had your way; it wouldn't be right to make a decision based on your opinions, and neither would it be right to make one based on theirs. 



Eevee said:


> Is that what you want?  Everyone in this thread who abhors forum games to leave?


I'm not trying to make them leave, but I assume they'd be happier if they got to run things their own way.

Most of those who are against Forum Games are people I like very much, but I still don't think it would be right to stop Forum Games posters from doing what they do; it wouldn't be fair to ban their silly hobby simply because you can't stand being aware of its presence a few clicks away. I'm making an effort not to let my dispositions towards senior members cloud my judgement.


----------



## Espeon

Music Dragon said:


> Most of those who are against Forum Games are people I like very much, but I still don't think it would be right to stop Forum Games posters from doing what they do; it wouldn't be fair to ban their silly hobby simply because you can't stand being aware of its presence a few clicks away. I'm making an effort not to let my dispositions towards senior members cloud my judgement.


Even so, the threads which are blatant postcount increase are annoying, a waste of space and cause for arguements. Honestly, if the games are actually a game as opposed to "poscount++", then sure it should be fine. It's why the Forum Games are there in the first place, so people can play games. Unfortunately they've just become a tool for users to increase their postcount.

Personally, it should just be that games which are cases of postcount++ should be deleted and the ones which are actually games should stay. Rules should really be invoked about game creation too.
Generally the "how famous are you" and other one-word/one-number answer "games" which require no thought whatsoever.

While we're at it, I think some people should stop joining absolutely every roleplay they possibly can. Maybe limit it to about 3 roleplays per person at one time until one roleplay finishes as such?

Feel free to completely ignore me if this has been said before. I haven't got the effort to read through the rest of the thread.


----------



## Zuu

Espeon said:


> While we're at it, I think some people should stop joining absolutely every roleplay they possibly can. Maybe limit it to about 3 roleplays per person at one time until one roleplay finishes as such?


Thank you.


----------



## surskitty

Don't try limiting how many RPs someone can be in; some people can play in many and well.  :/


----------



## Evolutionary

Yes RP limiting would be good. But RP fans wouldn't be too happy about this, and I sort of figure not too many RPs live so I guess being in heaps isn't TOO bad...


----------



## Retsu

The RP forum has gone to hell anyway. I don't see much of a point in enforcing anything there, honestly.


----------



## Eevee

Music Dragon said:


> I thought the general consensus around here was that consenting parties should be able to do whatever they want as long as they don't get in anyone else's way.


Legally?  Sure!

You may also notice a running theme here where I refer to the forums as an entity unto itself.



Music Dragon said:


> but I still don't think it would be right to stop Forum Games posters from doing what they do; it wouldn't be fair to ban their silly hobby simply because you can't stand being aware of its presence a few clicks away.


Forum Games is a low-hanging symptom of something nobody really wants to fix.  Hence the futility.


----------



## Music Dragon

Eevee said:


> Legally?  Sure!
> 
> You may also notice a running theme here where I refer to the forums as an entity unto itself.


I'm very sorry, but I don't see where you're going with this. (I'm a slow-on-the-uptake kind of person.) So the "consenting parties should be able to do whatever they want as long as they don't get in anyone else's way" statement is wrong because...?



Eevee said:


> Forum Games is a low-hanging symptom of something nobody really wants to fix.


So what's the underlying disease?



Eevee said:


> Hence the futility.


By the way, I read through the thread again and I couldn't find any post where you mentioned the futility of... well, whatever it is. I mean, there is this one:



Eevee said:


> Which is why I said this is ultimately futile.


... but that refers back to an earlier statement I can't seem to find. I can only assume that you're talking about the futility of taking away Forum Games, in which case I don't understand why you want it removed in the first place.


----------



## surskitty

He feels that way about _the law_, not everything.

Someone's life is not significantly affected if they get a PM saying that they broke the rules on a forum.


----------



## Music Dragon

surskitty said:


> He feels that way about _the law_, not everything.
> 
> Someone's life is not significantly affected if they get a PM saying that they broke the rules on a forum.


Oh, I know. But I don't understand _why_ he feels that way; shouldn't they be able to play games as much as they want, since they're not doing any harm?

Someone's life is not significantly affected if people post in Forum Games, either...


----------



## Bombsii

Now you're talking about limiting RP? This is mad! Don't delete or edit things that are fun and that you can actually gain from and get entertainment from. You shouldn't limit it. Keep it like that.


----------



## surskitty

DarkArmour said:


> Now you're talking about limiting RP? This is mad! Don't delete or edit things that are fun and that you can actually gain from and get entertainment from. You shouldn't limit it. Keep it like that.


It'd be better if people actually could write, but limiting how many RPs someone can be in is _really freaking stupid_.


----------



## Espeon

Thing is though that, correct me if I'm wrong, a lot of roleplays tend to get "dull" because there are so many new roleplays created on a daily basis that none ever get finished as such. This just annoys me slightly as some people do put effort into these things. Not only that but it becomes clutter when it should do so.

It doesn't matter how frequently people roleplay if they're well, absolutely crap at it and by not following through they're barely going to improve at anything. Sure it might be fun but I do find it annoying how nothing ever gets finished. Plus there are roleplays out there which seem kind of plotless initially. The only one I can really think of is the team Magma roleplay thing started by Philly; doubt that'll get finished either.


----------



## surskitty

Why does it matter if a roleplay gets finished?  Large roleplays very rarely actually finish whatever their plot is; it's more common for plot _threads_ to get tied up but for nothing to ever really ... end.  There's usually still stuff to do.  People might not want to play it out, but there's still _something_ unless everybody died or something.


----------



## Espeon

Okayokay, I see your point. What I mean is that I'd like to see an ongoing roleplay which has lasted a while because people are actually dedicated to it rather than joining the newest roleplay out.


----------



## Zora of Termina

...Wouldn't we all like to see that. :/

It's like, very few RP's actually catch my eyes these days, and the ones that do I'm usually pretty dedicated to. It'd be great if more people were like that.

Feel free to ignore this post. I just had to say something about it. >>


----------



## surskitty

That's an issue of attitude that can only really be dealt with on a case-by-case basis.


----------



## Retsu

Retsu said:


> The RP forum has gone to hell anyway. I don't see much of a point in enforcing anything there, honestly.


^ Restating this.


----------



## Harlequin

tl;dr

are people _actually opposed_ to making the forum better? I mean, seriously? I'm a fan of quality over quantity, but I suppose some people _like_ vast piles of shit.


----------



## Zora of Termina

What's your idea of better and what's mine are totally subjective. Either way, there is going to be someone who has a totally different opinion, disagrees and bawws/debates/whatever about it, and we'll be in this situation all over again. Therefore, I think everything should be left _alone_.


----------



## surskitty

Why?  So things can get slower and slower as more and more of the forum's resources are devoted to stuff that gets read all of once and is relevant to only the poster and possibly one other person?


----------



## Valor

Zora of Termina said:


> What's your idea of better and what's mine are totally subjective. Either way, there is going to be someone who has a totally different opinion, disagrees and bawws/debates/whatever about it, and we'll be in this situation all over again. Therefore, I think everything should be left _alone_.


Hey, uh, kid, listen.

There are fifteen pages of posts discussing _why_ leaving things alone is a foolish idea. Take some time to read them, then come back to the last page where the big boys know what they're talking about and then you can join.


----------



## Zora of Termina

Yeah, saw that coming. >>

I have been here for _every single page of this thread_, Valor. I know what I'm talking about. I know what you're talking about. Don't try and talk down to me.

And what I meant was, now that you've had your way with the US vs. World and getting rid of the counting threads. However I will admit that locking huge threads and making new ones to continue them so they don't end up like that and crash the forum every time someone looks at it is a good idea.

I wasn't here to debate or get attacked. I only wanted to state my opinion. Now that I see that that's not welcome here, I'll leave.


----------



## Lucas₇₅₅

Is there really any slowdown from the other ones? Us vs. World seemed to be the only one, but it was towering over all of the other ones by _800 pages_. Is that likely to repeat itself? And even if it is, then will there be too many of them to delete in a few minutes?


----------



## Butterfree

Well. You can whine all you like about the "quality of the forum", but why should you honestly care about the "quality" of the forum? We're not entering it in a freaking beauty contest. If "intellectual members" come here and are ABSOLUTELY HORRIFIED to find that THERE ARE SOME PRETEENS ON A POKÉMON FORUM WHO HAPPEN TO ENJOY PLAYING SILLY GAMES and that makes them LEAVE AND NEVER COME BACK, they're honestly probably elitist assholes anyway. Do the members here magically change if they stop playing games? No; they're utterly insignificant, just something you do when you're bored and waiting for somebody to reply to the other posts you've made recently. If the games are removed, they'll just go do the same thing at another forum, or pass their time in some equally insignificant, silly way. All removing the forum games forum would do is create a laughable illusion that no, our members would never spend their free time doing that! as if it would actually help anyone. No, I don't think that keeping the forum games forum is a matter of great principle either, and yes, they can just as well do it elsewhere, but I really don't see the point of removing it either, in terms of "forum quality" or "TCoD's reputation". It does not get in the way of anyone who does not want to see it, unlike spambots posting viagra advertisements. It does not force anything unwanted upon other users, unlike the posting of porn. If I had reason to believe that a great part of the forum's population derived honest enjoyment from repeatedly pressing a pink button with a picture of a bunny on it, I see no reason why I mightn't just as well put a pink button with a picture of a bunny on it somewhere in an unobtrusive location where those who want it can find it and click on it as often as they like, even if it seems stupid and pointless to me.

If the Forum Games forum is actually seriously slowing down the server in a problematic way, it is easy to just schedule regular pruning of old/overly long threads in that forum. There is no need to be all up in arms and OH NOES WE MUST SAVE THE SERVER FROM THE OPPRESSION OF THE FORUM GAMES FORUM BY DELETING IT FOREVER. I'd do it if I had good reason to think it needed to be removed altogether, but right now it doesn't seem like it would be anything more than just taking some enjoyment away from a good portion of our members.


----------

