# Pronoun identity



## Butterfree (Jan 19, 2011)

The gender field in your profile is now called "Preferred Pronoun". You can select "Any", "He", "She", "It" or enter any quirky made-up pronoun you want in a text field. You can do so here.

Currently, that text field will simply be set to whatever you had chosen in the old gender field; to make a selection from the drop-down instead, you need to _erase_ the text field value to signify you're not actually using the text field anymore.

Please don't use this for silly jokes. Or at least, if you do, don't get offended if everybody proceeds to use silly jokes like "s/h/it" when they actually need to refer to you in the third person.


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## Zoltea (Jan 19, 2011)

Inb4announcement

Anyways, I'll stick with what I had before, but I suppose this means we get to see silly pronouns like "robot". x3


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## Kratos Aurion (Jan 19, 2011)

I am curious as to how many people will put "any" and actually mean it.


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## surskitty (Jan 19, 2011)

You're my favouritest admin, Butterfree!  (For the purposes of this comment opal and Negrek aren't admins.)


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## Zoltea (Jan 19, 2011)

Kratos Aurion said:


> I am curious as to how many people will put "any" and actually mean it.


"Katos Aurion: Preferred Pronoun: Any"

Though I dunno if you mean that or not, x3


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## Negrek (Jan 19, 2011)

Kratos Aurion said:


> I am curious as to how many people will put "any" and actually mean it.


*prepares to start using non-English and/or nonsensical pronouns to refer to Kratos*

"Preferred Pronoun" is kind of long and ugly in the postbit... could you maybe make it just "Pronoun" with a little explanation of what it is in the user profile area where you have to set it?


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## Kratos Aurion (Jan 19, 2011)

I am entirely serious, Zoltea. (And you, Negrek. Do your worst! You're only going to confuse other people anyway, so be my guest.)

EDIT: Re: "preferred pronoun": Or just say "Call Me:" ? And presumably change "any" to "anything" or "any pronoun/gender" or something? Meh, that doesn't actually help.


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## Butterfree (Jan 19, 2011)

Eh, I think "pronoun" works. It probably gets the point across, especially since members get the full explanation of the field when they register.


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## Zoltea (Jan 19, 2011)

Similar to Kratos' pronoun, would be fun to see someone choose their pronoun as "they".


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## Ryan the Terrible (Jan 19, 2011)

I'm going to be super literal with this, and actually use the words 'any' and 'neg' as pronouns for the corresponding members.

"Kratos Aurion? Yeah, I guess any is pretty cool."


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## Hiikaru (Jan 19, 2011)

Thank you! I had the "Call me 'it'" up for lack of a better option, but "it" isn't actually my preference and that kind of implies that I'd rather be called that _instead_ of a gender when "any" is really more accurate.



Zoltea said:


> Similar to Kratos' pronoun, would be fun to see someone choose their pronoun as "they".


Why fun? This is something that should be able to be normal. If someone wants to be called "they", isn't it fine? You're kind of coming across as considering this to be a joke when it's actually a thing; if you're thinking it's not a serious pronoun, stop thinking that. "Any" isn't a joke either. (If you take it seriously, great! Keep doing what you're doing.)



Comma Police said:


> I'm going to be super literal with this, and actually use the words 'any' and 'neg' as pronouns for the corresponding members.
> 
> "Kratos Aurion? Yeah, I guess any is pretty cool."


I... guess you can do this if you want as long as it doesn't bother anyone, but isn't that kind of more trouble than it's worth? It will stop working once you need more forms. If you can make it work, though, well, more power to you? More pronoun options are never a bad thing.



Kratos Aurion said:


> I am curious as to how many people will put "any" and actually mean it.


I do! I'm fine with he, she, or they. Weird pronouns (vis? eir? xie?) are fine, just strange to see because they're not used frequently enough!

Well, "it" is kind of weird, but "any except 'it'" is a little silly when most people won't actually use it, and it's not... upsetting or anything, just weird.

So people can pick one and keep it, or switch between posts, or whatever. Or avoid using a pronoun if they want to.

Also! It's neat to be able to say "any", in general, and I want that option in real life. How come even people who are okay with trans aren't okay with swapping pronouns? Why do I have to pick? It isn't an important detail about me, it's just a thing to say when you're talking, and I'm happiest when I'm not stuck as one pronoun set. Gender doesn't have to be sticky!


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## ultraviolet (Jan 19, 2011)

:D this is great! I'll... probably keep using 'she' but thankyou :D


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## Kratos Aurion (Jan 19, 2011)

Hiikaru ♥;461939 said:
			
		

> I do! I'm fine with he, she, or they. Weird pronouns (vis? eir? xie?) are fine, just strange to see because they're not used frequently enough!
> 
> Well, "it" is kind of weird, but "any except 'it'" is a little silly when most people won't actually use it, and it's not... upsetting or anything, just weird.
> 
> ...


High five, then!


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## Zoltea (Jan 19, 2011)

I won't be able to take "any" seriously until I know the reasoning behind it, :S
I know they is used plenty to refer to people, I just thought it'd be silly if "they" was someone's preferred pronoun.


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## Zhorken (Jan 19, 2011)

I'll respond to he, she, sie/se and hir, or zie/ze and hir, but I almost always use "he" so that's what I have listed.  Also it always throws me off when people use "they" as ambiguous or neutral gender; I only think of it as singular for unknown. :c  So I'm like "who else do you-- oh wait no only the one person, only Hiikaru" whenever Vixie does that.

EDIT: Also this is even better than what I suggested. /o/


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## Kratos Aurion (Jan 19, 2011)

I dunno, I thought Hiikaru's reasoning was pretty sound.

EDIT: @Zoltea.


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## Harlequin (Jan 19, 2011)

I think whenever I'm talking about Kratos (not to) I'm going to switch his pronouns every time. I think she'd appreciate that. Or maybe it wouldn't, who knows? I still think she would.


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## dolphinfish (Jan 19, 2011)

So then, now we all have an excuse to speak in the third person unnecessarily?

YES!!!


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## Butterfree (Jan 19, 2011)

No. You have an excuse to speak in third person when you're talking about other people, which I hope you were doing already anyway.


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## dolphinfish (Jan 19, 2011)

That's unfortunately true.  Okay.


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## MentheLapin (Jan 19, 2011)

I'm in love with this idea, even though I'll probably keep it as 'he' for the time being change it to 'Shklee'.

On a sort-of related (yet really not that important or interesting), I wasn't really a fan of "Call me 'It'". I've just always thought that calling someone 'It' has negative connotations.


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## surskitty (Jan 19, 2011)

It does indeed.


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## Starmie (Jan 19, 2011)

Ha, I was actually wondering about this when I signed up. The gender field, with the "call me it!" option, was so close to being progressive, and yet stopped so clearly short that I actually found myself pausing and thinking, _Why not a pronoun field?_ And then this gets posted several hours later. :P I very much approve.


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## Wargle (Jan 19, 2011)

Doesnt bother me either way.


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## shy ♡ (Jan 19, 2011)

But 'it' is the best. :[ It's the least offensive of all!


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## surskitty (Jan 19, 2011)

... Uh.  How do you figure?


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## shy ♡ (Jan 19, 2011)

Well, have you ever spoken to it? It's pretty cool, yo.


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## MentheLapin (Jan 19, 2011)

That makes 'it' sound like 'it's' some sort of object.

The general consensus within my friends is to use 'it' when jokingly [or not] angry with someone. "Everything was fine until _it_ showed up!"


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## surskitty (Jan 19, 2011)

Ummmm 'it' is used mostly for inanimate objects and animals that aren't considered by the speaker to have a gender worth noting....


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## shy ♡ (Jan 19, 2011)

It is an object. It's _my_ object. And it _doesn't_ have a gender (worth noting or not). :D


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## Butterfree (Jan 20, 2011)

I wouldn't personally want people to call me 'it' and I imagine most people would be uncomfortable with it because of the inanimate object/animal association, but if that's what somebody wants, that's great. Everybody has a different view on stuff like this.


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## Kirby-Chan (Jan 20, 2011)

I prefer to be call any instead of it. I don't mind using the word "it" since I like to keep my gender in secret but it sounds more natural to me if I use "any".


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## 1. Luftballon (Jan 20, 2011)

I use it for everything, even when I know its gender.


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## Karkat Vantas (Jan 20, 2011)

Thou shalt refer to thy as Kam and thou shalt always refer to thee as Kam.

It's my first Kammandment.


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## Pwnemon (Jan 20, 2011)

I wanted to put, "I don't believe in pronouns" but it didn't fit. D:


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## Gryzalb (Jan 20, 2011)

To anyone looking to find a less offensive form of "it," has anyone ever heard of Spivak pronouns? They're a singular, less... derogatory gender-neutral pronoun, but unfortunately they're not in good use. But considering English doesn't really have much else to offer other than the grammatically ambiguous "they," it's as good a suggestion as any...

EDIT: Okay, I'm obviously not paying attention here. >.< Thanks, enekoiru, for pointing that out...


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## Pwnemon (Jan 20, 2011)

This comic pretty much sums up my thoughts on the whole "call me it" thing, as I typically do use they IRL and I don't see why people get so uptight about it.


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## surskitty (Jan 20, 2011)

Gryzalb said:


> To anyone looking to find a less offensive form of "it," has anyone ever heard of Spivak pronouns? They're a singular, less... derogatory gender-neutral pronoun, but unfortunately they're not in good use. But considering English doesn't really have much else to offer other than the grammatically ambiguous "they," it's as good a suggestion as any...


You might have noticed I have the spivak set listed :)


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## Eloi (Jan 20, 2011)

Gryzalb said:


> To anyone looking to find a less offensive form of "it," has anyone ever heard of Spivak pronouns? They're a singular, less... derogatory gender-neutral pronoun, but unfortunately they're not in good use. But considering English doesn't really have much else to offer other than the grammatically ambiguous "they," it's as good a suggestion as any...


Not against 'they', but why not just use a pronoun-like phrase sometimes?

"Samus morphed into a sphere and rolled up to Alex. The former discussed politics with the latter. Alex then went downstairs after a heated debate about the Galactic Federation. The aforementioned then grabbed a knife off the kitchen counter, and went back up stairs. Samus looked up at Alex, and the former gasped at the latter. Samus shot a hail of beams, but the aforementioned's beams failed to connect with the target. Alex swung at Samus, but the latter dodged and finally took a shot at the former. This killed the aforementioned, and a victory was granted to Samus."

Did you have trouble following that too badly? Now with pronouns:

"Samus morphed into a sphere and rolled up to Alex. She discussed politics with her. Alex then went downstairs after a heated debate about the Galatic Federation. She then grabbed a knife off the kitchen counter, and went back up stairs. Samus looked up at Alex, and she gasped at her. Samus shot a hail of beams, but her beams failed to connect with her. Alex swung at Samus, but she dodged and finally took a shot at her. This killed her, and victory was granted to Samus."

If anything, the one with the gendered pronouns is more ambiguous. Think this is prejudiced? It might be, so lets take a block of text from a public domain work.

Here's the beginning of Alice in Wonderland:
Alice was beginning to get very tired of sitting by Lorina (one of two sisters Alice had) on the bank, and of having nothing to do: once or twice Alice had peeped into the book Lorina was reading, but it had no pictures or conversations in it, “and what is the use of a book,” thought Alice, “without pictures or conversations?”
Alice's mind considered (as well as it could, for the hot day made the mind feel very sleepy and stupid), whether the pleasure of making a daisy-chain would be worth the trouble of getting up and picking the daisies, when suddenly a White Rabbit with pink eyes ran close by the aforementioned.
There was nothing so very remarkable in that; nor did Alice think it so very much out of the way to hear the Rabbit say to itself “Oh dear! Oh dear! I shall be too late!” (when that was thought over afterwards, it occurred to Alice that it should've been thought about, but at the time it all seemed quite natural); but when the Rabbit actually took a watch out of its waistcoat-pocket, and looked at it, and then hurried on, Alice got up, for it flashed across the aforesaid's mind that there had never been a rabbit with either a waistcoat-pocket, or a watch to take out of it, and, burning with curiosity, Alice ran across the field after it, and was just in time to see it pop down a large rabbit-hole under the hedge.

[...]

Alice was not a bit hurt and jumped up in a moment looking up, but it was all dark overhead and in front was another long passage, and the White Rabbit was still in sight, hurrying down it. There was not a moment to be lost: away went Alice like the wind, and was just in time to hear it say, as it turned a corner, “Oh my ears and whiskers, how late it’s getting!” Alice was close behind it when the former turned the corner, but the Rabbit was no longer to be seen: Alice was in a long, low hall, which was lit up by a row of lamps hanging from the roof.

There were doors all round the hall, but they were all locked; and when Alice had been all the way down one side and up the other, trying every door, the aforesaid walked sadly down the middle, wondering if it was possible to get out again.
Suddenly our protagonist came upon a little three-legged table, all made of solid glass: there was nothing on it except a tiny golden key, and Alice’s first thought was that this might belong to one of the doors of the hall; but, alas! either the locks were too large, or the key was too small, but at any rate it would not open any of them. However, on the second time round, our protagonist came upon a low curtain that had not been noticed before, and behind it was a little door about fifteen inches high: Alice tried the little golden key in the lock, and to the aforesaid's great delight it fitted!
Alice opened the door and found that it led into a small passage, not much larger than a rat-hole: our protagonist knelt down and looked along the passage into the loveliest garden you ever saw. How the aforesaid longed to get out of that dark hall, and wander about among those beds of bright flowers and those cool fountains, but Alice's head could not get though the doorway; “and even if my head would go through,” thought poor Alice, “it would be of very little use without my shoulders. Oh, how I wish I could shut up like a telescope! I think I could, if I only know how to begin.” For, you see, so many out-of-the-way things had happened lately, that Alice had begun to think that very few things indeed were really impossible.
There seemed to be no use in waiting by the little door, so the aforementioned went back to the table, half hoping that there would be another key on it, or at any rate a book of rules for shutting people up like telescopes: this time Alice found a little bottle on it (“which certainly was not here before,” said Alice), and tied round the neck of the bottle was a paper label, with the words “DRINK ME” beautifully printed on it in large letters.

It was all very well to say “Drink me,” but the wise little Alice was not going to do that in a hurry. “No, I’ll look first,” our protagonist  said, “and see whether it’s marked ‘poison’ or not”; for the aforesaid had read several nice little stories about children who had got burnt, and eaten up by wild beasts, and other unpleasant things, all because they would not remember the simple rules their friends had taught them: such as, that a red-hot poker will burn you if you hold it too long; and that, if you cut your finger very deeply with a knife, it usually bleeds; and Alice had never forgotten that, if you drink much from a bottle marked “poison,” it is almost certain to disagree with you, sooner or later.
However, this bottle was not marked “poison,” so Alice ventured to taste it, and, finding it very nice (it had, in fact, a sort of mixed flavour of cherry-tart, custard, pine-apple, roast turkey, toffy, and hot buttered toast), and very soon finished it off.
"What a curious feeling!” said Alice. “I must be shutting up like a telescope!”
And so it was indeed: now only ten inches high, and with a face that brightened up at the thought that it was now the right size for going though the little door into that lovely garden. First, however, Alice waited for a few minutes to see if the aforesaid's body was going to shrink any further: our protagonist felt a little nervous about this; “for it might end, you know,” said Alice to no one but the air, “in my going out altogether, like a candle. I wonder what I should be like then?” And thus tried to fancy what the flame of a candle looks like after the candle is blown out, for it could not be remembered by Alice to have ever having seen such a thing.
After a while, finding that nothing more happened, the aforementioned decided on going into the garden at once; but, alas for poor Alice! when our protagonist got to the door, it was found that the little golden key had been forgotten, and when Alice went back to the table for it, the aforementioned's arm could not possibly reach it: Alice could see it quite plainly through the glass, and thus tried hard to climb up one of the legs of the table, but it was too slippery; and when Alice got tired out with trying, the poor little thing sat down and cried.
“Come, there’s no use in crying like that!” said Alice's mind to Alice rather sharply. “I advise you to leave off this minute!” Alice's mind generally gave Alice very good advice (though Alice very seldom followed it), and sometimes Alice's mind scolded Alice so severely as to bring tears into Alice's eyes; and remembered trying to box Alice's ears for having cheated Alice's mind in a game of croquet Alice was playing against Alice's mind, for this curious child was very fond of pretending to be two people. “But it’s no use now,” thought poor Alice, “to pretend to be two people! Why, there's hardly enough of me left to make one respectable person!”
Soon Alice's eye fell on a little glass box that was lying under the table: the aforesaid opened it, and found in it a very small cake, on which the words “EAT ME” were beautifully marked in currants. “Well, I’ll eat it,” said Alice, “and if it makes me grow larger, I can reach the key; and if it makes me grow smaller, I can creep under the door: so either way I’ll get into the garden, and I don’t care which happens!”
Alice ate a little bit, and Alice's mind said to the aforesaid “Which way? Which way?”, holding a hand on the top of the aforesaid's head to feel which way it was growing; and was quite surprised to find that it remained the same size. To be sure, this is what generally happens when one eats cake; but Alice had got so much into the way of expecting nothing but out-of-the-way things to happen, that it seemed quite dull and stupid for life to go on in the common way.
So Alice set to work, and very soon finished off the cake.


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## Hiikaru (Jan 20, 2011)

Zoltea said:


> I won't be able to take "any" seriously until I know the reasoning behind it, :S
> I know they is used plenty to refer to people, I just thought it'd be silly if "they" was someone's preferred pronoun.


Comma's reasoning seemed to be just as a joke, but if someone actually wanted to use it, I'd assume their reasoning would be that it's genderless and it sounds okay and it makes them happy and comfortable.

"They" as a preference isn't silly, and people shouldn't have to feel like it's silly. Gender's really upsetting for a lot of people, and if a pronoun set makes someone more comfortable with themselves, isn't that fine?



Eloi said:


> Not against 'they', but why not just use a pronoun-like phrase sometimes?
> 
> [useful examples]


Sometimes avoiding pronouns entirely is fine, that's true! I do that sometimes, and I'll always do that when referring to myself in third person. But really, it's a lot of trouble to keep up for very long, and it starts to sound really awkward really quickly.

I have to do this occasionally when I have to write something autobiographical in third person. It's really a lot more difficult than it ought to be. I wrote a third person thing not very long ago that I think I did a good job on, but it took significantly longer to write because I was avoiding pronouns.



Zhorken said:


> I'll respond to he, she, sie/se and hir, or zie/ze and hir, but I almost always use "he" so that's what I have listed.  Also it always throws me off when people use "they" as ambiguous or neutral gender; I only think of it as singular for unknown. :c  So I'm like "who else do you-- oh wait no only the one person, only Hiikaru" whenever Vixie does that.
> 
> EDIT: Also this is even better than what I suggested. /o/


Sorry, Zhorken! I like "they" fine and it's the most natural way for me to refer to others, so I forget that there are people who still have trouble with it as referring to singular.



Kratos Aurion said:


> High five, then!


High five! \o/


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## Zoltea (Jan 20, 2011)

Hiikaru ♥;462264 said:
			
		

> Comma's reasoning seemed to be just as a joke, but if someone actually wanted to use it, I'd assume their reasoning would be that it's genderless and it sounds okay and it makes them happy and comfortable.
> 
> "They" as a preference isn't silly, and people shouldn't have to feel like it's silly. *Gender's really upsetting for a lot of people*, and if a pronoun set makes someone more comfortable with themselves, isn't that fine?


Excuse me but what? I'm not familiar with this (bolded).
The more things people find to be uncomfortable about the more I lose the non-existent faith I had in humanity. :S


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## Adriane (Jan 20, 2011)

Zoltea said:


> Excuse me but what? I'm not familiar with this (bolded).
> The more things people find to be uncomfortable about the more I lose the non-existent faith I had in humanity. :S


I have no idea what you're trying to say here but it's coming across as extremely arrogant and ignorant. Confusion and discomfort about gender is a common issue and there's nothing 'wrong' about it.


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## Hiikaru (Jan 20, 2011)

Zoltea said:


> Excuse me but what? I'm not familiar with this (bolded).
> The more things people find to be uncomfortable about the more I lose the non-existent faith I had in humanity. :S


You're... not familiar with people being uncomfortable with gender? You're not familiar with people being trans or agendered or otherwise alienated?

Some people feel that they were born the wrong way, and they're happier if you use a different pronoun for them. It's pretty simple! If you use the pronouns people like, everyone is happier, so it's a friendly thing to do.

Question: If someone calls you "she", do you feel bothered? If it bothers you at all, you can make a connection with this idea.

It's not about "finding things to be uncomfortable about", it's about finding new ways to express existing discomfort. You don't get up one day and say "so, today, I'm bothered by my gender/sex."

(Please stay here to discuss this! I'm not sure I understand where you're coming from, and I'm not sure you understand where I'm coming from. I'll try to clarify anything that's confusing for you!)


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## Zoltea (Jan 20, 2011)

Vixie ♥;462270 said:
			
		

> I have no idea what you're trying to say here but it's coming across as extremely arrogant and ignorant. Confusion and discomfort about gender is a common issue and there's nothing 'wrong' about it.


More of a personal thing regarding the faith in humanity. Though if you wouldn't mind, explain how a person is uncomfortable with gender, it's something that doesn't make sense to me. I can understand like online not wishing to reveal personal information, though if in real life it makes no sense to me.

@Hiikaru

I've never met any of those, so I have never been able to hear their side of the story. Being called the wrong gender is bothersome, but that's normal, it bothers anyone to be referred to as something they're not.


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## surskitty (Jan 20, 2011)

Zoltea said:


> I've never met any of those, so I have never been able to hear their side of the story.


You know you're on TCOD, right...?


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## Zoltea (Jan 20, 2011)

enekoiru said:


> You know you're on TCOD, right...?


I don't read the quiltbag club. Unless somebody states they're trans outside of there I'm not gonna know.


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## Hiikaru (Jan 20, 2011)

Zoltea said:


> More of a personal thing regarding the faith in humanity. Though if you wouldn't mind, explain how a person is uncomfortable with gender, it's something that doesn't make sense to me. I can understand like online not wishing to reveal personal information, though if in real life it makes no sense to me.
> 
> @Hiikaru
> 
> I've never met any of those, so I have never been able to hear their side of the story. Being called the wrong gender is bothersome, but that's normal, it bothers anyone to be referred to as something they're not.


Yes, exactly - it bothers them to be referred to as something they're not. They might be male or female biologically, but inside (in their heart!), they're different. Not everyone identifies entirely comfortably as their biological gender!

It's like... well, I'll try out some different explanations and see if any of them click with you.

So first of all, try imagining how it feels like when someone mistakenly calls you "she" - can you imagine your bothered feeling being more intense than it is? If someone were to insist on referring to you as "she" even when you ask them to stop, how would you feel about that? If they really considered you to be a girl, if it became a big deal... Then, what if everyone felt that way about you? It's a distressing feeling. It's not what you are - and you know that, but they don't, and they refuse to acknowledge it as you grow increasingly uncomfortable. Can you imagine that?

What if you were transferred to a female body, or what if you woke up one day and you looked female in the mirror? Would you magically be comfortable with the idea of being "she" instead of "he", just because your physical appearance was a little different? Probably not.

It's also a little like how it feels when a part of you seems wrong. If you're uncomfortable with your weight, or height, or with a spot on your hand, or you feel that your nose is mis-aligned... A little bit like that.  Something more emotional might work, too, like if you're uncomfortable with the way you speak, or with your level of skill at something, or if you have bad confidence. Try imagining anything else that causes you discomfort with _yourself_. This is important - discomfort with someone else or with a concept or an object isn't really close enough to imagine!

Mind and body aren't the same. There's an expression that goes "it's what's inside that counts," and this is something you ought to take to heart. Do you judge people based on their skin? Do you judge people based on their hair-colour? A person's sex is something they're born with, and it isn't something they can do a lot about, so it's important that you look past it.

It's kind of difficult to explain it to someone who's really unfamiliar with the concept, and I've never really tried before, but if you keep an open mind, I think you can come to terms with it.

(if someone who's a little better at this wants to step in, please do! But I'll try my best.)


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## Dinru (Jan 20, 2011)

A person being uncomfortable with their gender (gender here defining mental/personality characteristics) is just sortof a... thing. It just sort of happens. It's like, go grab your shoes. Put the left one on the right foot, and the right one on the left foot. Walk around like that for a little while. It doesn't really hurt, and it's kind of uncomfortable, but nonetheless it just feels wrong, doesn't it? Now imagine that's what your skin, your societal role, and other people's perception feels like, but you can't take that off.

That feeling is known as Gender Dysphoria, and is a mental condition in which the brain is one gender, and the body has the characteristics of another (and is also probably the single most common reason that transsexuals transition). However, unlike most mental conditions, it can't be cured by changing what's in the head- any attempts to do so tend to not only not make it better, but it can also tack on a considerable emotional baggage. Instead, the only counteraction against gender dysphoria is for the dysphoric individual to transition into the gender their brain expects. (Also, sometimes this can fall outside the binary of male/female, right in the middle of it, or any number of other gender identities).

Using someone's preferred pronouns is just plain respectful and polite.

(at least, that's my two cents)


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## Zoltea (Jan 20, 2011)

I suppose I can clear up a bit more of what confuses me. Is it their current gender that makes them uncomfortable or the topic of gender altogether making them uncomfortable? The latter wouldn't make sense to me. Although personally I won't ever be able to relate with a trans, being able to know their thoughts would help me out tons.


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## Hiikaru (Jan 20, 2011)

Thank you, Dinru, that's helpful!



Zoltea said:


> I suppose I can clear up a bit more of what confuses me. Is it their current gender that makes them uncomfortable or the topic of gender altogether making them uncomfortable? The latter wouldn't make sense to me. Although personally I won't ever be able to relate with a trans, being able to know their thoughts would help me out tons.


The former. Though, if you wouldn't mind using a term like "sex" or "biological gender" or "perceived gender" a lot of people appreciate that so you can distinguish between what's inside of them and what's outside of them more easily. "Current gender" is a nice try for being sensitive, but these are more common and better understood terms!

Sometimes bringing up gender in general might make someone uncomfortable because it reminds them about their personal discomfort, but this isn't the main problem, just a side-effect (sort of like if you're hungry but can't eat anything just now, and others keep talking about food!).


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## octobr (Jan 20, 2011)

> Although personally I won't ever be able to relate with a trans, being able to know their thoughts would help me out tons.


This is pretty awesome, just saying.

I mean, we really can't expect anyone _not_ under the trans umbrella to be able to fully comprehend it. It's one of those things you can't explain without words, seeing as it's a really weird and confusing feeling even to people who are pretty comfortable with where they are in life. 



> Is it their current gender that makes them uncomfortable or the topic of gender altogether making them uncomfortable? The latter wouldn't make sense to me.


Well, usually it's the former -- though in this case it would be physical sex and assigned gender, which is probably a stretch for you to understand but hey -- seeing as the person is seen as one sex but is mentally and strives to be perceived as the other/another/no gender at all (it's a preeeetty big spectrum). 

However! With more and more education within the trans community, it's pretty easy to see how a lot of trans people do have some gripes with gender itself, even if simultaneously feeling very connected to the concept. I mean, consider.

When you are a trans person -- at least in my experience -- the idea of being the wrong gender isn't something that really formulates into a tangible statement like 'I want to be x,' because it isn't something you _want_ to be but something that you kind of already _are._ And, supposing you accept that (a step in itself, whoo), you run into the feeling that you might not fit into people's views of the gender you want to be seen as. Say you're mentally male, but being raised and being physically female may have had some effects on you, or you just don't give two shits and like puppies and rainbows thanks. You realize people will find issue with you claiming your maleness but not abandoning your personality, and that gets you thinking -- just who are they to tell you what gender is anyways? What importance should it really hold? If people are all over the gender spectrum, which they are, and which you find out pretty quickly if you even put a toe into the trans community, why do we even need to label ourselves under this gender term in the first place when it's really just aspects of ourselves and our personality? 

But this is where it gets all woobly.

So you sit on that line of thought for a while and then you realize, wait. All that's cool and all, but I ... still really need to be seen as whatever gender, even though I know it's all just personality crap and blah blah blah. In fact, being told I'm the other gender kind of makes me sick. _What._

That's how I kind of feel anyway. There's a lot of mental turmoil involved -- gender doesn't matter, I don't even really perceive it when I'm looking at people, it's generally a meaningless term and shouldn't change how we view a person, BUT I know I'm not female, I'm male and that's something that I can _feel_ and have felt for like forever. So yeah _it's confusing for everyone_

KIND OF WENT OFF ON A TANGENT THERE BUT WELP HOPE THAT HELPS A LITTLE


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## Zoltea (Jan 20, 2011)

But tangents are fun~
Like a person with DID with a male and female personality, then things get really wild.
Though, there's always the danger of the stereotype, which is the reason 90% of people mistake me for being female on the internet.
</tangents>

But yeah, that pretty much clears up my confusions. So, the pronouns yet to be seen on someone's profile: "They", "Shemale", "Robot".


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## octobr (Jan 20, 2011)

Welll shemale is really offensive, which is why you never see it outside of porn! So!


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## Zoltea (Jan 20, 2011)

Anything can be offensive to anyone, depends if the person finds something offensive or not, lol. Though keep in mind I haven't a clue what a majority of people find offensive. x3


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## Eloi (Jan 20, 2011)

I know by proxy (my boyfriend), but I will try to explain at least some things. From what I can glean from my boyfriend, how you can identify or be disgusted with with such a vague concept as 'gender' is due to society's reinforcement of it. Sure, gender is a societal concept, but society is friends. Society is family. A 'societal concept' is something that involves your friends, family, and almost every other person besides you. It may seem like common sense to go 'that genitalia means that person is X gender which brings expectations of X' but some men have vaginas and some women have penises, as a societal concept is not a body part. Societal concepts are how you interact with people, how you interact with yourself, they don't exist for things that can't think complexly (my dogs don't know or care about their gender identity) but we as humans think complexly. Thus, trying to dumb ourselves down to "penis=male/vagina=female" when there is so much more complicated things going on because we as humans are complicated, it is belittling the very concept of humanity itself. As well, there is no easily given reason why people are best described under something identified in the transgender umbrella, as there is no easily given reason why people are gay, straight or otherwise. And remember, this is the most important thing: A person is the number one authority on their own thoughts. If someone says that being assigned the concept of 'female' by society due to an organ makes them feel dead inside and would very much like to have the thoughts of being a male be represented somewhere else besides his own skull because the thought of being treated like how he thinks he should be treated by people (kindly, with respect, and as a male) makes them happy, they are the authority on it, and I don't know better than them. 

Did I do okay for a by-proxy account?


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