# EVIL MUSLIMS in Europe?



## Shiny Grimer (Nov 26, 2009)

From the small amount of European news that I read, it would seem that Europe is somehow in danger of being assimilated by the Middle East and that SWARTHY EVIL MUSLIMS are going to replace all the good Christian people. It's not difficult to find people talking about the evil invasion of Europe by Muslims (geert wilders, ugh).

Now, nationalist groups and people trying to stir up hatred against 'different' immigrants is nothing new (hello, lou dobbs!). My big surprise is that, according to this 2007 report by the Pew Forum, US Americans were actually _more accepting_ of Muslims than people from Germany, Spain, and the Netherlands. Considering the rampant anti-Muslim sentiment present throughout my nation (obama's a secret muslim lol) I find this really... weird. o.o I mean, I'd always heard of Europe as this _shining beacon of hope and tolerance and acceptance and awesome_.

So my question is, is the whole 'Fear of a Muslim Europe' thing just something whipped up by Nationalist groups to get more votes, something actually believed by the populace (wherever you live), or just a bunch of baloney? People not living in Europe, feel free to respond about sentiments about Muslims here.


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## Sovie (Nov 26, 2009)

"Muslim fear" is ludicrous.  You have about as much to fear from your average day muslim as you do your average day christian.

And about as much to fear from your christian extremist as your muslim extremist.


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## Vladimir Putin's LJ (Nov 26, 2009)

Yeah, Europe's more advanced socially but that doesn't mean we don't have racists and such. The big problem is that everyone's panicky because of the crisis so they automatically vote for the right (old values provide comfort) so it gives a bad impression. Add the fact that we do have a lot of arab immigrants in Europe and that we've had a lot of missed bomb attacks and some successful ones (more than America's one attack :v) and the tension grows.

Personally, most of the people I know are normal, but you have your usual shitheads. I don't think people would have such a problem with arabs if they were better integrated. The first generation is very quiet and nice but their kids were all born in ghettoes and go to the shitty schools so of course they tend to be more involved in delinquent gangs.
That's the situation in Belgium at any rate.


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## Yarnchu (Nov 26, 2009)

Well, I don't live in Europe, but...

Intolerant Christians are funny. Like an oxymoron. It makes no sense at all.


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## Tailsy (Nov 26, 2009)

lol wat

I have genuinely never met a person like this here. Seen them on TV, sure, but that's a minority.


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## departuresong (Nov 26, 2009)

Isn't "evil Muslims" an oxymoron?


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## Dannichu (Nov 26, 2009)

There's a whole ton of muslim students at my uni and nobody treats them any differently and, from my experience, there's no "religious tension" of any kind whatsoever. My friend Fizza taught me more about Islam than 7 years of RE classes.

And there are, like, no muslims at all back in Devonland, so I dunno what the situation is outside of a university setting.

But I imagine it's similar with most issues like this; you've got your usual idiots who're a very tiny minority that kick up a fuss, going all "argh terrorists" or similar (I haven't heard anything about anyone taking over the "good Christian people" though; pretty much everyone I know is either atheist or keeps their religion to themselves), and then a much bigger group in which everyone else agrees that the former group of people are utter morons. Good times.


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## Tarvos (Nov 26, 2009)

i don't care if you're muslim as long as you're not dumb

i agree with vplj it's the same in the netherlands (and from my experience belgium as well)


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## goldenquagsire (Nov 26, 2009)

> Isn't "evil Muslims" an oxymoron?


not really. it *is* possible to have an evil Muslim (assuming that one believes in the concept of good and evil, of course).



> Intolerant Christians are funny. Like an oxymoron. It makes no sense at all.


this is also not an oxymoron.

an oxymoron is where two contradictory statements are made. like a dry puddle of water.

I've known quite a few Muslims in the various schools I've been to and all of them seemed perfectly well-adjusted. they're just normal guys who support English football teams, go to parties at the weekend and talk to their friends on MSN. even the ones who are fairly devout are just as normal as everyone else, except they don't drink and they go to prayer more often. the Muslims who were troublemakers weren't causing problems because of their race or religion; they were being delinquents in the same way that white or black kids do.


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## Yarnchu (Nov 26, 2009)

I said _like_ an oxymoron. That implies that it is strange like one.

Anyways, Christianity is set up to be one of the more tolerant religions(really the only ones I've seen that would top being more accepting of others is Islam and Shinto), but many people twist it and use it as an excuse to *hate* other people.


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## opaltiger (Nov 27, 2009)

> Anyways, Christianity is set up to be one of the more tolerant religions.


Not really. Have you read the Bible? Lots of genocide in there. Sure, Jesus said "love thy neighbour", but apparently this only counts if your neighbour is Christian.


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## Creasy (Nov 27, 2009)

opaltiger said:


> Not really. Have you read the Bible? Lots of genocide in there. Sure, Jesus said "love thy neighbour", but apparently this only counts if your neighbour is Christian.


Christians live by the New Testament. Jesus never endorsed genocide.


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## Sovie (Nov 27, 2009)

Creasy said:


> Christians live by the New Testament. Jesus never endorsed genocide.


Christians do NOT live by the New Testament.  That is a fact BECAUSE of the fact that Jesus had that turn the other cheek thing.

Example 1 of Christians not living by the New Testament:
Crusades.


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## spaekle (Nov 27, 2009)

But guys, the parts about genocide aren't _valid_ any more!!!


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## xkze (Nov 27, 2009)

There's a disclaimer somewhere at the end of the bible that explains that the only things that are supposed to be taken seriously are the things that support the argument you're making! can't you guys read.


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## Creasy (Nov 27, 2009)

Sovie said:


> Christians do NOT live by the New Testament.  That is a fact BECAUSE of the fact that Jesus had that turn the other cheek thing.
> 
> Example 1 of Christians not living by the New Testament:
> Crusades.


* Christians are supposed to live by the New Testament.



Spaekle Oddberry said:


> But guys, the parts about genocide aren't _valid_ any more!!!


They're perfectly "valid", but no longer applicable.


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## xkze (Nov 27, 2009)

What's your opinion on the applicability of the Ten Commandments?


for the record, my first post up there was in jest, I didn't actually want to start a debate on the whole which-parts-of-the-bible-are-relevant-today debate. Because it never gets anyone anywhere.


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## Sovie (Nov 27, 2009)

Xikaze said:


> What's your opinion on the applicability of the Ten Commandments?


They're pretty good, except for the parts about god.


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## xkze (Nov 27, 2009)

(not you) 

(but yeah)


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## Creasy (Nov 27, 2009)

Xikaze said:


> What's your opinion on the applicability of the Ten Commandments?


No part of Mosaic Law is applicable to Christians.


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## xkze (Nov 27, 2009)

Creasy said:
			
		

> No part of Mosaic Law is applicable to Christians.



??

I have always understood Mosaic Law as being a very large moral foundation for the Judeo-Christian religions?


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## Creasy (Nov 27, 2009)

Xikaze said:


> ??
> 
> I have always understood Mosaic Law as being a very large moral foundation for the Judeo-Christian religions?


Surely you've noticed that Christians don't keep kosher or observe the sabbath on Saturday (one of the Ten Commandments).


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## xkze (Nov 27, 2009)

Sure the Christian branch doesn't follow it _exactly_, but that's a far cry from _no part of it being applicable to Christians_.

Christians _do_ observe the sabbath, anyway. They just have a different interpretation of "the seventh day".


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## Zuu (Nov 27, 2009)

Okay, I'm no Christian theologian or Bible scholar, and I'm not sure what this New Covenant is supposed to be saying. Didn't Jesus himself say that he did not come to revoke Mosaic law? Isn't God Jesus? And Jesus God? And ... see, Christianity is too intricate and muddled for it to make any sense to me. Could you explain it to me instead of just posting a wikipedia link (the best way of debating)?

ON TOPIC: I wanted to kick VPLJ for saying that Europe is more socially advanced, and then I realized it's true. God, I hate living in America.


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## Creasy (Nov 27, 2009)

Xikaze said:


> Christians _do_ observe the sabbath, anyway. They just have a different interpretation of "the seventh day".


It's not a reinterpretation. Christians intentionally celebrate the sabbath on the *first* day, despite God's commandment that the Jews do so on the seventh.



Dezzuu said:


> Didn't Jesus himself say that he did not come to revoke Mosaic law?


Jesus fulfilled the Law of the OT. He and Paul explicitly contradict it throughout the New Testament.

e.g.: "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil." (Matthew 5:38-39)

And Paul: "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." (Galatians 5:4)

"He brought an end to the commandments and demands found in Moses' Teachings so that he could take Jewish and non-Jewish people and create one new humanity in himself." (Ephesians 2:15)


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## xkze (Nov 27, 2009)

So correct me if I'm wrong here.
God was like "All right Jews, you guys celebrate the sabbath on the seventh day. Okay, now, Christians, you guys celebrate sabbath on the first day." ?


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## Creasy (Nov 27, 2009)

Xikaze said:


> So correct me if I'm wrong here.
> God was like "All right Jews, you guys celebrate the sabbath on the seventh day. Okay, now, Christians, you guys celebrate sabbath on the first day." ?


Gentile Christians aren't biblically obligated to celebrate any sabbath. It's just tradition. 

According to Paul, Jews and Jewish converts to Christianity must still observe the seventh-day sabbath and Mosaic Law in general.


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## Zhorken (Nov 27, 2009)

It doesn't really make a difference what a religion's texts are supposed to say — only what people do.  We can interact with people, but we can't deal directly with religions.  A religion isn't an actual entity dictating people's actions.  People learn religion from others; they decide what they'll practice, consciously or by going with what they grew up around or however.  Scripture, whatever the intent, doesn't act as a religion's definition or a strict set of rules.  You can argue about how a religion is "supposed" to go all you like, but even if you have ground to stand on (I don't know or care), standardizing one won't work.  A religion is, in effect, whatever people call it.  Any number of variations will emerge.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: stop thinking in terms of religions.  Think in terms of people; it's people you're dealing with.


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## Creasy (Nov 27, 2009)

Zhorken said:


> It doesn't really make a difference what a religion's texts are supposed to say — only what people do.  We can interact with people, but we can't deal directly with religions.  A religion isn't an actual entity dictating people's actions.  People learn religion from others; they decide what they'll practice, consciously or by going with what they grew up around or however.  Scripture, whatever the intent, doesn't act as a religion's definition or a strict set of rules.  You can argue about how a religion is "supposed" to go all you like, but even if you have ground to stand on (I don't know or care), standardizing one won't work.  A religion is, in effect, whatever people call it.  Any number of variations will emerge.
> 
> I guess what I'm trying to say is: stop thinking in terms of religions.  Think in terms of people; it's people you're dealing with.


That's reasonable from an atheistic perspective, but my point stands. Most Christians reject Mosaic Law, and virtually all would agree that genocide is wrong. Either way, the atrocities of the OT are no reason to criticize modern Christianity.


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## Zuu (Nov 27, 2009)

"I mean, c'mon, you gotta get past those three murders on my criminal record, those happened in the /past/"


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## nastypass (Nov 27, 2009)




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## Teh Ebil Snorlax (Nov 27, 2009)

What does this have to with EVIL MUSLIMS IN EUROPE?

Here in Ireland, we have a funny situation. A minority (but a significant minority) of both young (as in my generation) and old (as in my grandparent's generation) are fairly racist. You know, the usual "fucking terrorists" and "if you can't speak the language get out of the country".

While it's funny enough to note that the IRA _helped to train Middle Eastern terrorists_, it's the second one that really gets me going. Muslims view it as offensive to live in a country with out learning its language. So many of them are sending their children to Gaelscoileanna and Gaelcoláísteanna, schools where everything is taught through Irish. So the Muslim immigrants _are actually speaking the language at an astronomically higher level of fluency than the racist pricks telling them to leave the country_.

This is because such people are generally too stupid to remember that English is only one of Ireland's three _second languages_ (along with French and German) and that Irish is the first.


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## Shiny Grimer (Nov 27, 2009)

Teh Ebil Snorlax said:


> So the Muslim immigrants _are actually speaking the language at an astronomically higher level of fluency than the racist pricks telling them to leave the country_.


This is incredibly awesome.

Also, guys, please stop white-knighting Christianity/ganging up on the only Christian defender. Not every thread involving religion has to be a Christianity vs. Atheists thread.

ON TOPIC: There are a bunch of kids at my school that wear the hijab. I haven't seen or heard anyone make a big deal of it _yet_ (despite all the people who write "God will tear this homosexual school down!" on the bathroom walls), which I figure is good news. Hurray for a step towards tolerance!

EDIT: Ok, who is the fool that added 'praise allah' as a tag?


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## Vladimir Putin's LJ (Nov 27, 2009)

I find it pretty repulsive that France banned wearing headscarves in school. I'm all for religious neutrality in schools but that means banning all religious symbols (crosses, yarmulkes, etc) or allowing them all, Sarkozy. You stupid prick.


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## Harlequin (Nov 27, 2009)

I'm the first to admit that I *really don't like Islam*. But that's okay. I really don't like Christianity or Judaism, either. I have no objection to immigration at all (although it shouldn't be indiscriminate, and I do think that English-speaking applicants should be put on a higher priority than others but I digress).

The fear of a "Muslim Britain" is totally irrational. We're never going to have Sharia law running parallel to our own courts. I think a big part of the problem is integration into the community.

Anti-Muslim sentiments are high in poor areas. That makes sense - poor areas tend to have bad levels of academic success and tend not to be the most tolerant places. I live in one of those places. The biggest obstacle to fixing the problem is education. 

What's _Other_ is often thought of as _Bad_ and that's something that needs to be changed. I don't know how to go about that. With the general election coming up there's been a lot of political chat going on (I even got into a debate at a _urinal_ in a club the other week...) and most young people in my area are preparing to vote BNP.

A rise in extreme political views always follows economic crisis, so maybe that's partially the case - maybe not. 

Er. For some reason this post got long. IDK why. Um.

In direct answer to the question: anti-Muslim sentiments are something that are entrenched in sections of the country but aren't held by the majority of people across the nation.


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## Harlequin (Nov 27, 2009)

Vladimir Putin's LJ said:


> I find it pretty repulsive that France banned wearing headscarves in school. I'm all for religious neutrality in schools but that means banning all religious symbols (crosses, yarmulkes, etc) or allowing them all, Sarkozy. You stupid prick.


I thought he *did* ban all religious symbols. Les signes religieux ostentatoires, right? A big crucifix, a yarmulke etc fit that description. Small things that can be worn under the clothes are exempt, of course.

It's not really his fault that Islam doesn't really have that, is it?

(I'm *all for* banning veils and such things, though, so.)


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## Shiny Grimer (Nov 28, 2009)

Harlequin said:


> I thought he *did* ban all religious symbols. Les signes religieux ostentatoires, right? A big crucifix, a yarmulke etc fit that description. Small things that can be worn under the clothes are exempt, of course.


The question is, are the people enforcing it going to be selective? It wouldn't be odd, I think, for someone to twist the law so that they happen to 'not notice' if a Jew or Christian is being ostentatious while punished a Muslim.



> It's not really his fault that Islam doesn't really have that, is it?


Hands of Fatima.



> (I'm *all for* banning veils and such things, though, so.)


I get this feeling for burqa and niqab and stuff, but what about hijab? I mean, headscarves can be worn in a non-religious way, and hijab isn't threatening or dangerous (as evidenced by the numerous Muslims in my school that co-exist peacefully with the non-muslims).



> I find it pretty repulsive that France banned wearing headscarves in school.


Eight of Germany's 16 states contain restrictions on wearing the hijab.
In the Netherlands, a February 2007 opinion poll indicated that 66 percent support a ban (on burqa) and 32 percent oppose it.


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## Zuu (Nov 28, 2009)

> Also, guys, please stop white-knighting Christianity/ganging up on the only Christian defender. Not every thread involving religion has to be a Christianity vs. Atheists thread.


Sure. I'd like it to be that way. But they happen to naturally evolve into those threads, which is how discussion works, so I don't see any point in complaining.


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## Shiny Grimer (Nov 28, 2009)

Dezzuu said:


> Sure. I'd like it to be that way. But they happen to naturally evolve into those threads, which is how discussion works, so I don't see any point in complaining.


When every thread ends up being like that, it gets a little boring. We may as well make some sort of thread where people go to nitpick about Christianity/Atheism/Theism and everyone can get their kicks there.


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## Shiny Grimer (Dec 3, 2009)

Had to bump the topic because of this.

56% of the Swiss voted to ban minaret construction. Some of the groups supporting the ban say that it would "encourange Sharia law". 

what

Of course, considering US opinion of Muslims (and that one Jewish man in the comments who was ok with the ban because Muslims are annoying or whatever), I can't say I'm too proud of the US, either.


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## Vladimir Putin's LJ (Dec 3, 2009)

I found it appalling too but to be fair the Swiss are kind of known as being very conservative so it wasn't very surprising.


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## Tarvos (Dec 3, 2009)

stupid

let's go back to the middle ages when PROTESTANTS BAND CATHOLIX


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## Dr Frank (Dec 3, 2009)

Muslims have as much chance as being evil, being a major threat to others and taking over Europe as Hitler does to raise from the grave as a zombah and raise an undead army to take over Nicaragua. Period.

EDIT: Wait, shouldn't this be in the Debating Forum, or something?


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## King Clam (Dec 3, 2009)

I'm personally all for muslins in Europe, with a focus on merry old England. America and Britain have been jamming their dicks into the Middle East for far too long and I'm just glad there's finally some non-violent retribution in the form of being flooded with people from countries their country ruined. While I understand the only people legitimately worried are racist bigots, I wish their fears were actually well-founded because I think they _deserve_ that.

Don't worry guys, I've been to Dearborn, it's not too bad. The signs are in English first then they're in the evil script of Mordor. You learn to adapt.


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## Harlequin (Dec 3, 2009)

I kind of support banning minarets, if only as a stepping stone to banning all kinds of new religious buildings. 

The ones we've already got are really nice, yeah, but let's not build any more.


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## opaltiger (Dec 3, 2009)

> I kind of support banning minarets, if only as a stepping stone to banning all kinds of new religious buildings.
> 
> The ones we've already got are really nice, yeah, but let's not build any more.


No. No no no. The idea is to make religion irrelevant, not to ban it! Banning something is just about the most counter-productive thing you can do.

Also, it's _architecture._ What if I wanted a minaret as part of my new Secular Mansion of Science?


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## Harlequin (Dec 3, 2009)

opaltiger said:


> No. No no no. The idea is to make religion irrelevant, not to ban it! Banning something is just about the most counter-productive thing you can do.
> 
> Also, it's _architecture._ What if I wanted a minaret as part of my new Secular Mansion of Science?


I know that's what we should be doing. It's just taking too long. :( Banning religions never, ever works (lol, Christianity.). 

But if you built a Secular Mansion of Science it wouldn't be a minaret! It'd be a ... thin tower of secularism! Or something, idk.

(I was mostly just being facetious rather than actually supporting a ban on minarets, though.)


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## Tarvos (Dec 3, 2009)

I don't want to ban religious buildings. They're prettier than those metal factories scientists build.


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