# How to Make a Man Ou of a Boy (Repost from the pre-forum crash days)



## Ether's Bane (Jan 3, 2010)

This thread regarding this article was made some time ago at the old forum.  

Here's the link. Also, if you prefer, here's the article itself.



> My only son David, is sixteen. God has called him to be a preacher, and his is already preparing for the ministry. A couple of summers ago while David was working as a cowboy at the Bill Rice Ranch, he was asked by Dr. Bill to preach on his local radio broadcast. Several people came to me telling of the blessings they received because of David's sermon; one person especially spoke highly of his radio message and asked me if I would be using David to preach at the First Baptist Church in Hammond. I replied in the negative! He was shocked and asked, "How do you expect to make a preacher out of David if you never let him preach?" My answer was, "I am not trying to make a preacher out of David; I am trying to make a man out of him, for if I can make him a preacher!" We have too many preachers now who are not men! I have spent thousands of hours trying to make a man out of my son. The words that follow will explain how I have tried and the methods I have used.
> 
> There is a great need for men of leadership and men of decision in every phase of our American life. The Kinsey report revealed that four per cent of our males over 16 years of age are homosexuals. In California, a sadly misguided preacher found to be a homosexual has founded a church for homosexuals. In the larger cities, clubs for homosexuals have been organized so they can meet regularly together. In our big cities there are homosexual men who live with other men and in a large city recently there was a wedding ceremony which united two men in matrimony. The "Gay" or homosexual community has its own beaches, restaurants, bars, and barber shops; its own tailor, gymnasiums, and apartment houses; its own books, magazines, and periodicals; its own male prostitutes and conventions.
> 
> ...


My opinions on this:

Prologue: No, just no. Discrimination at its finest.
Point 1: No opinion on this.
Point 2: Understandable. I actually agree with him to an extent on this.
Point 3: Fine, except the whole "make a big ordeal of it" part, save for a select few cases.
Point 4: No opinion again.
Point 5: O_________O <---------- That was my reaction upon reading Point 5. That's simply ridiculous.
Point 6: Competitiveness is okay, but not when it goes too far. This is going too far.
Point 7: Okay, minus the guns.
Point 8: And why the hell should you not?
Point 9: I can see why some parents would do so, as they want their kid to be "exposed to the world", but the fact of the matter is that many of us just have zero interest in this type of stuff. (Me included.) As for the second part, understandable, but there are times when you just have to get involved.
Point 10: I don't see what the above anecdote has anything to do with Point 10.
Point 11: No, no, no! If you want him to learn self-defense, send him for goddamn karate/taekwondo/whatever!
Point 12: Most parents already do this. Next.
Point 13: Actually, I completely agree with this one.
Point 14: For the first part, no, he didn't come back "more of a man"! He probably gained a hatred for baseball instead. For the second part, there are no such things as "masculine" and "feminine chores".
Point 15: Now THIS is more like it, though it would contradict some of the earlier points.
Point 16: Sure.
Point 17: He should look up to whoever inspires HIM, not YOU.

---

In conclusion, I believe that he's mostly off the mark, although he does make some good points. But, what do YOU think?


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## Momoharu (Jan 3, 2010)

I now realize being a man involves learning to kill snakes and properly shine your shoes.


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## Teh Ebil Snorlax (Jan 3, 2010)

All I see is a long list of ways to emotionally distance yourself from your child, mold him into a carbon-copy of you and ultimately lead him to emotional and mental damage.


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## foreign contaminant (Jan 3, 2010)

enough of these things happened to my dad. my dad is assuming, judgmental, dishonest, and verbally abusive to my mother and my brother. we don't talk much; his reason is, "i operate on 'logic'" whereas my mother operates on "i don't know what".


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## Lady Grimdour (Jan 3, 2010)

While I disagree on the motives or even some of the methods, it does raise a few good points.

I've seen kids raised in a religious household and they're at least respectful of people around them. Ignoring the self-righteous stuff their parents and in turn they spit out, these people have good morals. Don't knock it 'til you try it.

Though I admit this is a bit extreme, especially 1.


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## Tailsy (Jan 3, 2010)

Uh, Grimdour, you can't be both self-righteous _and_ respectful.


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## Harlequin (Jan 3, 2010)

:( I shop with my mother.

(okay that's because she's willing to spend £££ on me as long as she's there, but still.)


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## opaltiger (Jan 3, 2010)

someone whose name I should maybe remember said:
			
		

> When we find ourselves believing that killing a man makes us more of a man but loving a man makes us less of a man, it’s probably time to re-examine our criteria for manhood.


in other words, holy shit I'm glad my parents aren't insane

ps. any father who insists on being called "sir" should have his kid taken away immediately


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## Shiny Grimer (Jan 3, 2010)

#4 applies to everyone. Is this saying that women shouldn't pay their debts on time (or should they just leave it to their BIG STRONG MEN)?

I'm glad my parents aren't stupid.

EDIT: Oh my gosh, that thing people say about Americans having a fetish for heros is true! I don't know about you, but I never had (or needed) a hero (I was my own hero 8D j/k). I mean, my dad's always talking about the American obsession with having heros and being a hero (and even points to superheros as an example) and says it represents the individuality since it's usually one awesome hero that has to fix everything instead of working in a team, and I know that Hetalia's characterization of America as a dude obsessed with heroism _has_ to come from somewhere, but holy shiz, I've never seen someone actually say "You must have heroes!"


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## Tailsy (Jan 3, 2010)

I think Hetalia!America is a HERO because America tends to think it saves the day. See: everything they've ever been in.


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## Shiny Grimer (Jan 3, 2010)

Tailsy said:


> I think Hetalia!America is a HERO because America tends to think it saves the day. See: everything they've ever been in.


Of course America has to save the day, all the time! America is a nation of heroes, of course. :sunglasses:

Hm, maybe this explains a lot of the weird arrogance that the stereotypical American is supposed to have! I wonder if, perhaps, the "REAL AMERICANS" (not sure what that means but bear with me!) see themselves as _heroes_ helping out the poor _other people_ of the world. If this were true, everything would make sense now!

So this cult of heroism (not actually a cult but I'm running out of words) would naturally extend to attitude regarding everything. "America saved Britain's ass in WWII because we're heroes and just that cool. :sunglasses:" "We gave money to Cuba, so we're _heroes_. Cuba just sucks too much to take it." "I gave some Nigerian kids a dollar the other day; their lives are so much better now that they got to see a _real American._" (yes, there are people that actually do this and consider themselves totally awesome for it).

See, in Cuba, at least, the 'ideal' (is that the right word?) is to be a good team member. I guess this comes from being a Communist society, but I think it goes further back in Cuba's history~. Being a good team member is everything! Working together with a team is considered way more important than an individual doing everything. (We'll show these creeps the real superpower of teamwork! was sonic a communist?) Working for someone else's sake is considered important, too, as opposed to doing things for yourself or for the glory. I guess this is why so many Cubans that immigrate to the USA are confused by the 'hero culture'.

Or maybe I didn't have enough sleep and I'm trying to analyze an entire culture through a pamphlet... you decide!


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## #1 bro (Jan 3, 2010)

the intro bit about homosexuality made it seem like this article would be one of those crazy, fstdt-style things one has no choice but to hate, but like everyone said, this guy makes a few reasonable points, despite, you know, being a bigoted fundamentalist asshole. he's sort of mixing some decent parenting advice with some advice on how to not make your child one of those goddamn man-loving queers which is gross but noble i guess. still, i feel like his child is probably a pretty happy guy right now, albeit one with a few misguided views on stuff like gender roles and ethics and whatnot.

"compliment character, not talent" is a very good point. i feel like too much of telling a kid how great their singing is or how pretty they are or how smart they are or blah blah blah could give a child a bit of a superiority complex. #9, the bit about not being too overprotective with your child is pretty much 100% true (except for the "good christian boys" line but i'll let that slide). "do not make a mold for your boy" is also very true. 

but then you have all that stuff about making sure your kid's hair isn't too long, or making sure he plays football, which is of course stupid. then there's this truly horrible quote:



> One day when David was about nine I looked out through the upstairs window and saw him across the street straddling a little fellow and beating him up. He was hitting him right in the face until blood was coming. I ran down the stairs, out the door, across the street and pulled him off. "Son, what in the world are you doing?" I said.
> 
> He looked up with quivering lips and with anger in his eyes said, "Dad, he was calling my sister (Linda) a dirty name."
> 
> I said, "Then get back on him and let him have it!" When I walked away he was back on him again beating him up. God pity this weak-kneed generation which stands for nothing, fight for nothing, and dies for nothing.


about the whole "be a man" thing: when you're talking about someone who's a "real man", there's like a huge spectrum of what that could mean. the stupidest definition of a "real man" is probably "someone who has sex a lot and drinks a lot of beer and farts and doesn't respect anything women say" while the best is something like "someone who strives to always do the right thing and stand up for others". this guy's definition seems to be somewhere in the middle. 

i probably will never have kids, but if i ever do, i'm not going to resort to using some creepy, pavlov-esque method of programming my kid that i read in some parenting book. i think i'll just keep it simple: accept my child for who (s)he is, even if it's the complete opposite of me (obviously i won't care how "manly" my hypothetical son is, that goes without saying), make sure my kid feels safe and loved when (s)he's at home, teach him/her right from wrong, and tell him/her to always keep an open mind. i'll try to be there for them when they need it, but not be too overbearing. etc.


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## goldenquagsire (Jan 3, 2010)

Preamble is utter bullshit.
#1 This is also bullshit. Good manners and discipline does not correlate with good appearance.
#2 This is quite good advice apart from the "yes sir" bit which is kinda creepy.
#3 Quite good advice actually.
#4 Also very good advice. I can't stand being in debt. Honesty, integrity and punctuality are also quite good things.
#5 It's horribly hypocritical of me to say it but this is also good.
#6 I don't really get this paragraph at all. Striving to win is good I guess but humility is a good trait as well.
#7 Bullshit?
#8 Dunno about this one. I always thought that complimenting achievements means you'll want to achieve more.
#9 Aside from the more questionable elements (snake killing and Christian boys) this is also quite reasonable.
#10 I think this needs to be balanced somewhat. Yes, there is a time and a place for authority, but people should learn when it's right to question the powers that be.
#11 I don't really agree with this. Aggression just begets more aggression. You should only fight if you have to.
#12 This is a fair point. Teaching independant decision-making is always good.
#13 Now this is just being a spoilsport. A little informality never hurt anyone.
#14 This is good advice except the bit about masculine and feminine chores. That kind of crap /really/ annoys me. Everyone should learn how to do housework and it should be shared equally.
#15 Really, really good advice.
#16 ...hrm, I dunno. I take offence to the idea that younger brothers should have authority over their older sisters. Also, leadership isn't for everyone.
#17 I think this contradicts #15 somewhat. Let him choose his own heroes based on what he wants to do with his life.

Hrm. Aside from the Christian rhetoric, this guy does make a lot of good points about raising children properly. The real issue I have with the article is that this isn't about raising *manly* boys, it's about raising well-adjusted, functioning members of society. Masculinity and femininity have nothing to do with it; a soft-spoken, gentle and effeminate guy can be just as well-mannered and honest as a masculine guy.


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## spaekle (Jan 3, 2010)

1. Pff, wow. Just no.

2. If you never give the kid the opportunity to be a leader himself, I doubt he'll ever be more than a follower. Leaders make the rules. And fuck that yes sir/yes ma'am shit. Teach him to be respectful, not to treat you like you're his CO or something.

3. This isn't a bad idea, provided you don't do it over every little thing. 

4. God dammit, the kid's four years old. Give him the chance to sit in the yard with a stick for a while.

5. Teaching him to be active isn't bad at all, but he shouldn't have to participate specifically in sports if he doesn't want to. There are plenty of ways to get fit. :\ 

6. Lol, someone is 'less than a man' because they're 'somewhat effeminate'? And to this dude, 'effeminate' probably means his hair was a tad over his ears. Or that he 'couldn't beat his wife at chinese checkers' (wtf?)

But anyway, I don't think the problem is that kids are being taught to lose well, but the fact that kids are being taught that they never lose. I don't think it's a bad thing at all to teach kids to want to win, but you should teach them to be honest with themselves when they lose too. This "I've never lost" attitude this dude seems to have really isn't a good thing.

7. GI Joe is a fucking doll. /question

8. This doesn't seem bad, but I think you should stress that anything can become a talent if you love it and work at it enough. Praising talent alone tends to make people feel like they don't need to work any harder at what they do.

9. Teach the kid to be independent, okay, but I don't get how putting frogs in your pocket or killing snakes are life skills any more. I'd say teaching self-sufficiency should be more of a goal than HEY LOOK AT ALL THE MANLY SHIT I CAN DO.

10. Ehhhh, this is the "authority is always right just because it's authority" attitude. Maybe the teacher really was being unreasonable here. Look into how much homework is being given, whether the kid is actually making a good attempt at finishing it all and is simply unable to, and so on. Possibly even consider if there's some extracurricular thing he could drop because it's getting to be too much to handle. 

11. Uh, wtf? Maybe teach self-defense if he's going to live in downtown Manhattan and you're afraid he'll get mugged or something, but "lol he called my sister a dirty name" is not a reason to encourage jumping on someone for. 

12. Not picking out your own clothes by 18 is pretty sad, yeah, but I think this dude is seriously exaggerating the effects of this. o_o

13. Again I can agree, I guess.


eh, I don't care about the last four. I have this stuck in my head now.


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## J.T. (Jan 3, 2010)

Zeta Reticuli said:
			
		

> this guy makes a few reasonable points, despite, you know, being a bigoted fundamentalist asshole.


You don't know the half of it.

The man's a nutter. Yes, he has some good points, but he's a nutter nonetheless. If you've looked at any other of Jack Hyles' articles, he's a fucking lunatic.

Just a sample of his other work on 3 different sites; jesus-is-savior.com, jesus-is-lord.com, and jackhyles.net (really bad parts are bolded):



			
				jesus-is-savior.com said:
			
		

> Girls should not be allowed to play alone with boys. The parents should see to it that she plays with other girls. This is important for many reasons. She should play only with toys that are uniquely for girls. This, by all means, should include dolls, doll clothes, housecleaning equipment, dishes, pots and pans, etc. *She should participate in sports enough to become coordinated but she should not excel in sports. If later she marries a man who is very athletic, she could become more proficient in some particular sport that he enjoys, but if she becomes an expert in a sport that is usually associated with men and boys, it could prove embarrassing to her future husband, and for that matter, it could entice her to become more masculine than she ought to be.*


A woman beating a man at something? Say it isn't so!



			
				jackhyles.net said:
			
		

> Recently a young lady in Hyles-Anderson College came to my office in tears and completely broken. I asked her what was the trouble. She said, "Dr. Hyles, I am a fallen woman."
> 
> I said, "Oh, my, I'm sorry!"
> 
> ...


So just to recap: His talk about sin and damnation scared a girl so much, she was in hysterics about _holding a boy's hand_. And he considered this a _good thing_.



			
				jackhyles.net said:
			
		

> QUESTION: At what age should the parent begin teaching the Bible to the child?
> 
> ANSWER: I taught the Bible to each of our children as soon as he was home from the hospital. Every night I would tell a Bible story. I would act it out. I would take stories like "Jonah and the Whale," "David and Goliath," "Daniel in the Lion's Den," etc. and tell the entire story using such things as pantomime, monologue, etc. I did this practically every night at bedtime from the time the children were a week old.


Hope he didn't decide to act out the wars and genocides.



			
				jackhyles.net said:
			
		

> QUESTION: At what age should the child be taught the plan of salvation?
> 
> ANSWER: I taught our children the plan of salvation regularly from the time they came home from the hospital. Now I do not know when such truths begin to register in the mind of a child. Since I do not know when, I want to be sure I am telling the child the truth of God and the way to Heaven when that time does arrive.


Yes, let's teach a newborn child who can't even understand the meaning of "yes" and "no" about how to get into heaven.



			
				jackhyles.net said:
			
		

> Ladies, most of your husbands are fine men. Wouldn't it be a shame for your guy to live and die without having what is his rightful heritage? How pitiful! How tragic! *I wish I could help you realize the purpose for which God made you. I wish I could get you to get to your man and help make that man all that God wants him to be.* Complete him. Then you'll know what it is to be happy.
> 
> *Do you know what these women's libbers are? They are a group of confused women trying to find happiness and failing because they are searching for it outside of God's Word and God's plan.*
> 
> ...


I hate to pick out only one thing wrong with all of that, but think about the implications of that last paragraph. "Obey everything your father says without question before he does anything to you!"



			
				jesus-is-savior.com said:
			
		

> Teach her strict obedience. Other chapters stress the fact that obedience is the most necessary ingredient to be required from the child. This is especially true in the life of a girl, for *she must be obedient all of her life*. *The boy who is obedient to his mother and father will someday become the head of the home; not so for the girl. Whereas the boy is being trained to be a leader, the girl is being trained to be a follower.* Hence, obedience is far more important to her, for she must someday transfer it from her parents to her husband.
> 
> *This means that she should never be allowed to argue at all. She should become submissive and obedient. She must obey immediately, without question, and without argument. The parents who require this have done a big favor for their future son-in-law.*


In case you didn't get enough evidence that the man's a misogynistic asshat.

And possibly the worst of it:



			
				Jesus-is-lord.com said:
			
		

> 10. The spanking should be administered firmly. It should be painful and *it should last until the child's will is broken. It should last until the child is crying not tears of anger but tears of a broken will.* As long as he is stiff, grits his teeth, holds on to his own will, the spanking should continue.


In short: Some of the points are good. The man making them is anything but.


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## Momoharu (Jan 4, 2010)

Also, I find it hilarious that he says having long hair is bad according to the Bible, yet Samson never cut his hair until he became powerless.

gg pastor.


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## Zhorken (Jan 4, 2010)

The advice varies and is sometimes good but the mentality that the goal here is to ~be a man~ is disgusting.  Discrimination towards both sexes at once! Fantastic.


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## spaekle (Jan 4, 2010)

Momoharu said:


> Also, I find it hilarious that he says having long hair is bad according to the Bible, yet Samson never cut his hair until he became powerless.
> 
> gg pastor.


_I've_ never seen Jesus depicted with short hair, have you? :v


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## Teh Ebil Snorlax (Jan 4, 2010)




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## Vladimir Putin's LJ (Jan 4, 2010)

Spaekle Oddberry said:


> _I've_ never seen Jesus depicted with short hair, have you? :v


I'll be the buzzkill here and say the earliest representations of Jesus actually show him with short hair and an underdeveloped beard, which iirc is the likeliest explanation due to the place he was at and the time etc. I'm not sure though since I haven't done much indept research on Jesus' facial and bodily hair.

I know he was short and ugly and not aryan as all the modern paintings show but that's all :v


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## Scyther (Jan 5, 2010)

Um; hi.

Has anyone ever considered writing this guy an _e-mail_ or something. I mean think, this guy is praticlly _abusing_ his kid, feeding him ridiculous ideas, and we just sit her and talk about how _unfair_ it is? And it is unfair, ridculously so! But don't you think we should do something? I mean, being honest, we probably won't change this guy's mind. But at least we can say we _tried_! We give a damn! Honestly people, if you care, *do something*!

Granted, his kid is probably grown up by now. But he's telling this thousands, possibly millions of others, and to, I'm sure his word is law. People, how does this person not tick you off?

Please, just _try_, for other's sake. I know almost all of you can articulate yourself better than I, but need be, I'll do it myself.

At any rate, look at it this way: His responses are bound to be resolutely hilareous.

</hopefullymotivatinalspeech>


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## H-land (Jan 5, 2010)

> 4. Make him fulfill all obligations. When my boy was three and four years of age I started teaching him to pay his bills promptly and to fulfill his obligations completely.


First: Do you mean "seven", "thirty-four", "three", "four", "three and a half", or "no more than four" years of age? One cannot be both three years of age and four years of age at once.
Second: Assuming that this doesn't mean thirty-four, what kind of bills are your kids running up!?

Also it would have been nice if after the events given as example in eleven took place, the guy what called Linda a bad name died from blood loss or something and David was put in jail for aggravated assault and manslaughter. Ought to teach him that in  most civilized nations, 'doing the right thing' doesn't mean beating up everyone who makes you upset or disagrees with you.


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## Dinru (Jan 5, 2010)

Honalululand said:


> First: Do you mean "seven", "thirty-four", "three", "four", "three and a half", or "no more than four" years of age? One cannot be both three years of age and four years of age at once.



I do believe he meant "While he was three, and also when he was four." But I am not him (praise to the powers that be), so I can't be positive.


This is oppressive to both sexes, horribly "STRAIGHT CHRISTIAN BOYS ARE THE ONLY GOOD PEOPLE ON THE PLANET", and just... ugh. Can't believe I read all that a second time.


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## King Clam (Jan 5, 2010)

If you need to make a man out of a boy, I'd just call this guy

(I have nothing to add to this topic that I didn't say a few years ago)


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## octobr (Jan 5, 2010)

Geight said:


> If you need to make a man out of a boy, I'd just call this guy
> 
> (I have nothing to add to this topic that I didn't say a few years ago)


I will now have your children.

Right ... _now._


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## #1 bro (Jan 5, 2010)

Scyther said:


> Has anyone ever considered writing this guy an _e-mail_ or something. I mean think, this guy is praticlly _abusing_ his kid, feeding him ridiculous ideas, and we just sit her and talk about how _unfair_ it is? And it is unfair, ridculously so! But don't you think we should do something? I mean, being honest, we probably won't change this guy's mind. But at least we can say we _tried_! We give a damn! Honestly people, if you care, *do something*!


um, it's not _that_ big of a deal? this article isn't that over the top, i'd say a good 50% of americans would agree with all or most of the statements made here. the only other article i read by him on the site was the "how to make a lady out of a girl" which is like 30 times more horrible and sexist, but even then he's really not the only one that thinks this way.

edit: i just looked at the website again and he died eight years ago, SO


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## Dannichu (Jan 6, 2010)

Zhorken said:


> The advice varies and is sometimes good but the mentality that the goal here is to ~be a man~ is disgusting.  Discrimination towards both sexes at once! Fantastic.


This. Any point this guy makes that could be potentially good is still utter rubbish because it's so wrapped up in utter misogyny.


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## Vladimir Putin's LJ (Jan 6, 2010)

Zeta Reticuli said:


> i'd say a good 50% of americans would agree with all or most of the statements made here.


While I agree with your overall sentiment I don't think this is a very good way to prove a point.


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## Tarvos (Jan 6, 2010)

Proud of being fucking effeminate!


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## Scyther (Jan 12, 2010)

According to my dad, making a man outta a boy means taking them out on canoe trips into the _scary_ forest.


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