# Meowfia



## Keldeo (Mar 12, 2019)

Welcome to *Meowfia*, a mafia game about cats! I'm your host, Keldeo, and I'll be talking about some cool kinds of cats in this game. I hope you're all feline good and ready to play a fun game of mafia!



This setup is balanced for lynching most of the Days, so limit of one Abstain in the game.
People's roles will be announced in addition to their alignment when they die.
I want everyone to be able to participate, so I'll extend a phase if someone hasn't been able to post or send in their action, or if votes are tied. A tied vote at the deadline will lead to no one being lynched.
Typical stuff: please don't talk about the game outside the thread unless you're Mafia (or asking me a question or something), and don't screenshot or quote your role PM.

*It is now Night 0. No actions will happen tonight. Night 0 will end once everyone has read their role PMs.*


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## Keldeo (Mar 12, 2019)

Spoiler: Setup Information



This game uses the Bird 7P setup from MafiaScum, which consists of:

2 Mafia Goons (must target a Town member every night)
3 Townies
1 Town Doctor
1 Town Unhealable Cop



Spoiler: Mafia role PM



Hello, Username!

You are Flavorname, a Mafia Goon!

Every night starting Night 1, you or your partner can target another player in order to kill them. If multiple kill orders are received, the most recent one will be used. Note: You must kill someone each night, and if you don't submit anything the kill will be randomized among the living Town players. You can't kill a member of your own.

Your partner is Username, who you can talk to at any time outside the game thread.

You win when all Town are dead or nothing can prevent this.





Spoiler: Townie role PM



Hello, Username! 

You are Flavorname, a Townie!

You don't have any special abilities in this game. You win when all Mafia are dead.





Spoiler: Doctor role PM



Hello, Username! 

You are Flavorname, the Town Doctor!

Every night starting Night 1, you can target another player to stop them from being killed.

You win when all Mafia are dead.





Spoiler: Cop role PM



Hello, Username! 

You are Flavorname, the Town Unhealable Cop!

Every night starting Night 1, you can target another player in order to learn whether they are Town or Mafia.

You can't be healed. In other words, if the Doctor ever targets you, their action will fail. Neither you nor the Doctor will be informed that this is the case.

You win when all Mafia are dead.








Spoiler: Deaths



None yet.


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## Keldeo (Mar 14, 2019)

Another day dawns, and Meowfialand's finest amateur sleuths gathers again to seek out the most arcane puzzles, plumb the deepest depths of mystery, in hopes of emerging, triumphant, with a solution. Unfortunately for them, there's no crime to be found this morning: as expected by all of Meowfialand's non-amateur sleuths, *no one died.* Nothing's been stolen, no one's been ransomed. Even the cats stuck up trees have miraculously found their way to the ground, no assistance needed.



Spoiler: Cat





One cat species that doesn't need help to climb trees is the margay! Smaller than the similar looking ocelot, margays live in the deciduous and evergreen forests of Central and South America. Their long tails help them balance as they climb and leap around trees, and a margay can even hang from a branch with just one foot.


The seven townspeople sit down to talk anyway. Maybe, someone remarks, there's a conspiracy afoot - like a pair of people who've hidden among them and are plotting to kill everyone else, one by one, starting tonight! Someone else points out that that's an awfully specific theory to have, another person jumps in with a counterargument, and the discussion begins in earnest.

*Everyone has read their role PM, and it is now Day 1. 72 hours for discussion.*

(I completely forgot that you can't edit posts in this forum, so the Deaths hide tag in the previous post will remain empty)


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## Eifie (Mar 14, 2019)

what is up my dudes!!!


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## Butterfree (Mar 14, 2019)

Mafia is ON!

A+ flavor, please keep up the cat trivia.


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## Eifie (Mar 14, 2019)

Thank you for subscribing to Cat Facts! You will now receive fun daily facts about CATS! >o<


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## Flora (Mar 14, 2019)

God, I love the flavor of this Mafia SO MUCH and I want daily cat facts forever


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## RedneckPhoenix (Mar 14, 2019)

cat facts good, i hope we get one of these every day


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## M&F (Mar 14, 2019)

ah yes, the cat mafia. the mafia meant for cats. cat's mafia. mafia with cats. cats onl-







oh shit!! oh fuck!! oh no!!


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## Eifie (Mar 14, 2019)

I nearly posted this in ASB Halloween Mafia, that would've been embarrassing


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## Eifie (Mar 14, 2019)

so MF, you clearly have good taste in floofs. let us begin a town alliance of trust

who are the woofs


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## RedneckPhoenix (Mar 14, 2019)

here, take it.








i think this may be illegal, dogs in a cat thread


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## RedneckPhoenix (Mar 14, 2019)

s... th... my gif... it disappear


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## Eifie (Mar 14, 2019)

Eifie said:


> who are the woofs


(it occurs to me that in context it is not clear that I mean "who are the mafia")

anyway

RNP trying and failing hard to audition for the town alliance of trust

he can be a woof

*Vote: RedneckPhoenix*

a good dog gif may change my mind


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## M&F (Mar 14, 2019)

I believe that the dog takeover is at hand and we must make it complete by lynching *Keldeo* and hijacking the trivia station to broadcast dog propaganda trivia


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## RedneckPhoenix (Mar 14, 2019)

look don't hurt me

http://imgur.com/gallery/xiPyN9n



(i tried to embed it like a Cool Guy! but it was a fraud! my composure stat is at an obtuse frowny face!)


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## RedneckPhoenix (Mar 14, 2019)

(also *keldeo*


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## Eifie (Mar 15, 2019)

Y'all kids voting the GM are not contributing useful game-related information, you need to be Serious and make Serious Votes like mine

That said I am ok with RNP's response to a vote on him for the moment, I guess. *Unvote*

The town alliance of trust is looking for members but it sure is difficult to recruit when nobody wants to generate content in thread. You know we only get one mislynch before probable LyLo right


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## Flora (Mar 15, 2019)

There’s not much to contribute! It’s hard being a cat, a kitty cat, and I can’t dance dance dance because this is a TEXT BASED FORMAT (I’m very tired)


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## Eifie (Mar 15, 2019)

Flora said:


> There’s not much to contribute!


There isn't, and there isn't going to be, unless we make content! This is a pretty vanilla set-up and we're not going to find out anything unless we talk about things and see how people react to things. If we just sit around and wait nothing's ever going to happen and that just gives the wolves a boring and easy win!

You can talk about people's entrances! Did anyone strike you as particularly comfortable or uncomfortable? Wolves can sometimes be more uncomfortable and awkward when they're feeling out the thread at the start!

You can put pressure on people and see how they respond to it, whether it's justified or not! Sometimes wolves can get overly jumpy about votes on them even if they're stupid votes because they're trying to figure out how to give an appropriately jokey response and end up sounding unnatural instead!

Hell, you can talk about my posts. What impression do they give you about my alignment? Do you think I genuinely want to solve the game or that I'm just posting to give off the impression that I want to sort people? Talk about what you think and why you think that!

Having a productive D1 is a new thing for the tcodf meta but it's something we really have to try to do here otherwise the wolves get a huge advantage.

ILS and DarkAura have not yet acknowledged receiving their daily cat fact. Booo.

*Vote: DarkAura*

Come play!


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## DarkAura (Mar 15, 2019)

oh nya?? I like appreciating my soft kitties, warm kitties, little balls of fur, but I don't trust the look of that margay's face! It looks like it knows things it shouldn't, and therefore we should be suspicious of *Keldeo*'s ulterior motives for starting us off with such a felonious feline. Is this merely a game of happy kitties and sleepy kitties, or must we purr purr purrsue this to its logical conclusion? ',:3c


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## RedneckPhoenix (Mar 15, 2019)

i don't trust the *margay*, purrsonally


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## M&F (Mar 15, 2019)

I'm still ousting *Keldeo* as we speak but *DarkAura* is totally bandwagonning on my coup d'etat

and while we're at it I don't trust *Negrek* either

and I'm also going to vote for *VM* but that's for no reason at all it just feels right


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## Eifie (Mar 15, 2019)

M&F said:


> I'm still ousting *Keldeo* as we speak but *DarkAura* is totally bandwagonning on my coup d'etat
> 
> and while we're at it I don't trust *Negrek* either
> 
> and I'm also going to vote for *VM* but that's for no reason at all it just feels right


(should I read this as a legit vote for DarkAura)


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## DarkAura (Mar 15, 2019)

You've cat to be kitten me!! We all know the true woof behind the scenes is *JackPK*!!! Get with the program, sheeple! 

for realsies tho, it's rather suspicious that *M&F* is voting for me on the basis of jumping on the bandwagon when Redneck Phoenix did the exact same thing before I did. Could they be the pups in arms against the good catfolk?


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## RedneckPhoenix (Mar 15, 2019)

but if it's called meowfia... wouldn't the cats be the evil ones? said meowfia? please advise


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## Eifie (Mar 15, 2019)

DarkAura said:


> for realsies tho, it's rather suspicious that *M&F* is voting for me on the basis of jumping on the bandwagon when Redneck Phoenix did the exact same thing before I did. Could they be the pups in arms against the good catfolk?


Same thought tbh. MF explain


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## Eifie (Mar 15, 2019)

I've also been a little meh about her complete deflection of my post in P#15, like yeah obviously my post was not serious but I can imagine scum wanting to avoid giving an actual response to a random townread for fear of not being able to make it sound natural, and it came off a bit awkward in itself. This is super super light though and idk whether to just attribute it to tcodf meta.


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## M&F (Mar 16, 2019)

Great! Now that we seem to be largely done with poking inactives and the kid gloves are off, I can start voicing how suspicious it sounded that *Eifie* was scoping me out for a "town alliance" on D1, joke or no joke. Turning on me when I show no signs of cooperating -- and trying to use that as a scumread -- isn't a great look either.


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## Eifie (Mar 16, 2019)

M&F said:


> Great! Now that we seem to be largely done with poking inactives and the kid gloves are off, I can start voicing how suspicious it sounded that *Eifie* was scoping me out for a "town alliance" on D1, joke or no joke. Turning on me when I show no signs of cooperating -- and trying to use that as a scumread -- isn't a great look either.


You say that it doesn't matter if I was serious or not, but your last sentence doesn't seem to follow unless I was...

Are you going to answer about voting DarkAura over RNP or nah?


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## RedneckPhoenix (Mar 16, 2019)

(hey eifie can i ask what LyLo means, i play town of salem usually and dunno what that means)


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## Eifie (Mar 16, 2019)

RedneckPhoenix said:


> (hey eifie can i ask what LyLo means, i play town of salem usually and dunno what that means)


LyLo means Lynch (correctly) or Lose! Like in this case if we mislynch and the mafia kills someone overnight, we'd have 3 townies vs 2 mafia. If we don't lynch a mafia that day then the game is lost (either we lynch a townie and the mafia reaches parity right away, or we no lynch and then the mafia kills a townie which makes them reach parity). There is a possibility of a doctor save which means it wouldn't _technically_ be lylo unless the doctor was dead, but it's best not to rely on that.


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## M&F (Mar 16, 2019)

Eifie said:


> You say that it doesn't matter if I was serious or not, but your last sentence doesn't seem to follow unless I was...
> 
> Are you going to answer about voting DarkAura over RNP or nah?


Not really a contradiction.

Explaining jokes is distateful enough when it's not to someone I'm FoSing. I'll do it if anybody else cares.



RedneckPhoenix said:


> (hey eifie can i ask what LyLo means, i play town of salem usually and dunno what that means)


That's Lynch-or-Lose, the terminal situation where Town has to correctly lynch scum on the current Day or face an immediate mafia majority situation starting from the following Night. Meet also its little cousin, MyLo, when town can afford to no-lynch but a mislynch will cost the game.


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## M&F (Mar 16, 2019)

... ah, grand, ninja'd, that's what I get for trying to mafia while I splatoon


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## Eifie (Mar 16, 2019)

M&F said:


> Not really a contradiction.
> 
> Explaining jokes is distateful enough when it's not to someone I'm FoSing. I'll do it if anybody else cares.


I fail to see what's such a bad look about saying something to get a reaction and then making a conclusion based off of that reaction. "Turning on [you] when [you] show no signs of cooperating" only makes sense to say and make a read off of if you think I actually expected you to "cooperate" in the first place. Do you?

DarkAura certainly seems to care, given that she's the one who mentioned it in the first place.


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## DarkAura (Mar 16, 2019)

It was meowly an observation, one you yourself had said you were wondering about too, Eifie.


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## DarkAura (Mar 16, 2019)

...also, pretend I've become completely illiterate with mafia terms, but could someone explain to me what FoS is, again?


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## Eifie (Mar 16, 2019)

DarkAura said:


> It was meowly an observation, one you yourself had said you were wondering about too, Eifie.


Yeah, I was saying I wasn't the only one wondering about it.



DarkAura said:


> ...also, pretend I've become completely illiterate with mafia terms, but could someone explain to me what FoS is, again?


Finger of Suspicion, i.e. finding someone suspicious.


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## RedneckPhoenix (Mar 16, 2019)

so what do we do. do we poke ILS. do we, lynch someone we find susp or summat. do we continue to discuss ever more. do we make more cat puns right meow


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## Eifie (Mar 16, 2019)

RedneckPhoenix said:


> so what do we do. do we poke ILS. do we, lynch someone we find susp or summat. do we continue to discuss ever more. do we make more cat puns right meow


idk what to do about ILS tbh. We continue to discuss though! That's the only way we have of finding someone to lynch today.

Got any thoughts about me or MF right now?


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## RedneckPhoenix (Mar 16, 2019)

hmmmm.... you both seem townish to me. tho i guess a good maf always does.


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## M&F (Mar 16, 2019)

Eifie said:


> I fail to see what's such a bad look about saying something to get a reaction and then making a conclusion based off of that reaction. "Turning on [you] when [you] show no signs of cooperating" only makes sense to say and make a read off of if you think I actually expected you to "cooperate" in the first place. Do you?


I think it's at least an operational hypothesis, and backpedaling on it does nothing to dissuade me from thinking so.



RedneckPhoenix said:


> so what do we do. do we poke ILS. do we, lynch someone we find susp or summat. do we continue to discuss ever more. do we make more cat puns right meow


I _thought_ we were done poking inactives, it seems. Oh well.


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## DarkAura (Mar 16, 2019)

Eifie said:


> Yeah, I was saying I wasn't the only one wondering about it.


Oh, oops, my bad, I misinterpreted what you meant.

Anyway, it seems rather... _odd_ to me, Eifie, how insistent you are of gauging our thoughts on the both of you and of the game itself. Why is that?


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## M&F (Mar 16, 2019)

DarkAura said:


> Anyway, it seems rather... _odd_ to me, Eifie, how insistent you are of gauging our thoughts on the both of you and of the game itself. Why is that?


Now, to be fair, there's like, basically no play other than that at this point of the game, other than being entirely passive.

(Doesn't mean there's not more and less scummy ways to go about exacting that sort of play, of course, so if that's what bothers you, you might be onto something)


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## Eifie (Mar 16, 2019)

M&F said:


> I think it's at least an operational hypothesis, and backpedaling on it does nothing to dissuade me from thinking so.


I don't believe you actually think that's a possibility, tbh. You've seen me in way too many games. It looks like you just want to twist things to justify suspicion on me.

*Vote: M&F*



DarkAura said:


> Anyway, it seems rather... _odd_ to me, Eifie, how insistent you are of gauging our thoughts on the both of you and of the game itself. Why is that?


That's how you play the game! People talk about their thoughts and we figure out who doesn't seem to be approaching the game from a town agenda.


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## Butterfree (Mar 16, 2019)

Hrmmm. I do find Eifie's insistent talk from the very start of establishing a town alliance of trust, implicitly including her, kind of suspect; it reads like a very deliberate effort to establish dominance in the discussion and become read as town, and while you could plausibly want to do that as town and maybe it's a bit attention-grabby for scum, I'm wary of efforts to control the conversation. Furthermore I feel like the speed and viciousness of how she's attacking M&F feels sort of forced?

On the other hand, M&F was also immediately super defensive at being accused, in a way that kind of pings me. It doesn't quite seem plausible for them both to be the mafia - staging arguments for town cred is a thing, but it seems extremely risky on D1 in this setup - but I could see either of them being the scum. For the moment, though, I think I'm leaning towards Eifie.


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## Butterfree (Mar 16, 2019)

(Holding off on voting for now until they've both had their say, though.)


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## Eifie (Mar 16, 2019)

I was trying to get people to talk, because no one was saying anything game-related and from all my previous experience with tcodf games no one was _going_ to talk about anything game-related unless I did something to get their attention. That's all there is to it, really. I was not trying to control the conversation and I think it only seems that way because nobody else started posting anything until this afternoon.

I wasn't expecting much of anything on MF to come out of it, and indeed I said what I got out of it was an extremely light lean if it meant anything at all. Then MF responded in a way that I don't think looked good at all, so now we're here.


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## RedneckPhoenix (Mar 16, 2019)

psst, gm keldeo, should i do the ping thing with ils? or just let them be inactive.


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## Keldeo (Mar 16, 2019)

*Phase extension. Day 1 will end in 50 hours from this post.*

Q: What happens if players haven't posted during a phase?
I'll try to contact them through means outside of the forums. The phase will be extended until everyone has a chance to post (or it has become a long time without one player posting, in which case I'll try to find a person to replace them). Please do not post about this game outside of this thread, unless you're asking me a question or talking to your mafia partner.

Q: Is there "majority lynch" in this game?
No. If someone reaches the majority of votes, they will not automatically be lynched. The person with the most votes at the deadline of the phase will be lynched.

Q: How do I know who is voting for who?
PM me or post in the thread asking for a list of votes. I'll post who is voting for who in the thread once I see your message.


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## RedneckPhoenix (Mar 17, 2019)

i guess i'll follow eif's lead. *m&f*


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## Eifie (Mar 17, 2019)

RedneckPhoenix said:


> i guess i'll follow eif's lead. *m&f*


Got any particular reason? Earlier you said we both seemed towny — why did you think that then and what made you change your mind now?


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## I liek Squirtles (Mar 17, 2019)

Hello everyone just here to say I am alive!
I'm reading the thread right now and will post my vote soon.


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## RedneckPhoenix (Mar 17, 2019)

i'll be honest i only really skimmed the thread earlier but now that i'm going thru n re-reading it m&f is seeming, like, really deflective and defensive, and we only get one abstain for the whole game, right?


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## I liek Squirtles (Mar 17, 2019)

First, let me acknowledge that I am grateful for my daily ration of cat fact.

Second, I was initially suspect of Eifie because of the lightning-fast alliance proposal, but *M&F's* defensiveness rubbed me the wrong way.


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## Butterfree (Mar 17, 2019)

Eifie said:


> I was trying to get people to talk, because no one was saying anything game-related and from all my previous experience with tcodf games no one was _going_ to talk about anything game-related unless I did something to get their attention. That's all there is to it, really. I was not trying to control the conversation and I think it only seems that way because nobody else started posting anything until this afternoon.
> 
> I wasn't expecting much of anything on MF to come out of it, and indeed I said what I got out of it was an extremely light lean if it meant anything at all. Then MF responded in a way that I don't think looked good at all, so now we're here.


That makes sense, I guess. I do feel like you've been controlling the discussion, not just by proposing the alliance initially, but maybe it's just that you're still trying to get people to talk more and explain their positions, though, which is fair.

M&F, got anything to say?


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## M&F (Mar 17, 2019)

Eh, I don't really know what I'm being expected to add; I'm not sure if that sort of play is going to bite us in the ass from the numbers standpoint, but otherwise, I'm roughly 0% concerned with ~defending myself~. Hell, after I flip, you can all take your pick of which is scummiest: Eifie, or these limp-wristed bandwagonners.

That said, there's no point in waiting for the future from my standpoint, so I might as well start with *RedneckPhoenix* and see if anybody wants to follow my lead -- perhaps, anyone equally unimpressed with this "uhhh they're both townlike... nevermind it's probs MF", complete with what easily reads as a scum-to-scum "dude wtf make the bandwagonning look natural" moment.

(And yeah, yeah, I can already see it, "grasping at straws" and "trying to accuse just anyone" and all that -- yawn. If it's even worth preemptively responding to, it's to say that, as scum, it'd be a lot easier for me to double down on an established non-me suspect, and that maybe I'd get lynched in less games if people here had an easier go of distinguishing aggressive play with scum play.)


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## M&F (Mar 17, 2019)

Oh, and one more thing, just in case I run out of time to point it out: there's not that many of us around, so keep a close eye on who the mafia chooses to attack -- that's almost bound to be informative one way or another, atlhough it'll also require navigating a certain amount of WIFOM. I was this close to sitting here speculating on the scenarios, but it's not really useful when openly making that kind of speculation would just tip the mafia off to what they can expect to be read as according to their target.

I'll just point out that, if Flora dies, it's probably Eifie going after low-activity players to make the game interesting. I'm pointing that out because a) if I didn't, people might not figure it out, but b) now that I did point it out, a non-Eifie mafia would also appreciate the chance of attacking a low-risk player and frame someone else for it, so, even if it does come to that, it'll be WIFOMy instead of tedious. Now, I can be accused of a lot of things, but not making the game interesting definitely ain't one of them!


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## Eifie (Mar 17, 2019)

M&F said:


> maybe I'd get lynched in less games if people here had an easier go of distinguishing aggressive play with scum play.


That's pretty much what your suspicion of me boils down to, though. I started off trying to get people to actually generate alignment-indicative content right away and you scumread me for it.


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## Eifie (Mar 17, 2019)

M&F said:


> I'll just point out that, if Flora dies, it's probably Eifie going after low-activity players to make the game interesting.


So you _do_ know me as well as I thought you did... which only makes your statements on my early posts even more .


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## M&F (Mar 18, 2019)

Eifie said:


> So you _do_ know me as well as I thought you did... which only makes your statements on my early posts even more .


Oh, don't worry, I'm perfectly aware that you enjoy a spot of rabblerousing regardless of alignment, same as me. I'm just not really sold on this idea that your specific choice of gambit is neutral, when it in fact lines up pretty well with your usual scum playstyle!

But eh, talkative scum might as well get another day to keep things entertaining; it's the quiet vultures that I prefer hunting.


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## Butterfree (Mar 18, 2019)

Mmmmm. I don't reeeally like M&F's last few posts (I just find this sort of aggressive play kind of unpleasant and anti-town, honestly), but they do on a gut level strike me as sincere, too genuinely frustrated and tired and flippant to be scum. In a game of this size the mafia would be playing fairly carefully, I think.

Eifie's response, meanwhile, was reasonable but also very 'on-script', and something strikes me as off about the way she's still insistently defending herself against M&F's suspicions of her, even after M&F's moved on to voting for RedneckPhoenix and the thread is largely on her side - something one might do as scum who's attracted more suspicion than they'd like and wants to be sure to dismiss it quickly and be read as town being baselessly accused, but would seem a lot less pressing as actual town. So I'm going for *Eifie*. I don't feel 100% certain of this, but it's my best take on the situation.


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## Eifie (Mar 18, 2019)

Butterfree said:


> Mmmmm. I don't reeeally like M&F's last few posts (I just find this sort of aggressive play kind of unpleasant and anti-town, honestly), but they do on a gut level strike me as sincere, too genuinely frustrated and tired and flippant to be scum. In a game of this size the mafia would be playing fairly carefully, I think.
> 
> Eifie's response, meanwhile, was reasonable but also very 'on-script', and something strikes me as off about the way she's still insistently defending herself against M&F's suspicions of her, even after M&F's moved on to voting for RedneckPhoenix and the thread is largely on her side - something one might do as scum who's attracted more suspicion than they'd like and wants to be sure to dismiss it quickly and be read as town being baselessly accused, but would seem a lot less pressing as actual town. So I'm going for *Eifie*. I don't feel 100% certain of this, but it's my best take on the situation.


I'm... literally not "insistently defending" myself, though. I pointed out that MF was contradicting herself by complaining about how the tcodf meta is to lynch people for trying to actually play the game instead of sitting around being passive and talking about how there's no info, when that is pretty much what her case on me boils down to. The reason I suspect MF is because I don't think she was making her argument about me in good faith. I think she was trying to take advantage of that meta to put suspicion on me. So when she says things that seem to support this idea, you bet I'm going to say something about it.

Why is it that you apply the statement "In a game of this size the mafia would be playing fairly carefully, I think." only to MF and not to me?


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## Eifie (Mar 18, 2019)

Also, I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts on DarkAura.


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## DarkAura (Mar 18, 2019)

*Unvote*, for the time being. Keldeo, can I request a current running total of the votes so far?

I think it's a safe assumption to say that between MF and Eifie, one of them is almost certainly scum, as none of this strikes me as an argument between two innocents given how far this discussion has been taken.


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## Keldeo (Mar 18, 2019)

DarkAura said:


> Keldeo, can I request a current running total of the votes so far?


Yep!

*M&F (3):* Eifie (#45), RedneckPhoenix (#51), I liek Squirtles (#55) 
*RedneckPhoenix (1):* M&F (#57)
*Eifie (1):* Butterfree (#62)
*Not voting:* Flora, DarkAura (unvote #65)


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## DarkAura (Mar 18, 2019)

Thank you!

Alright, knowing both the current votes and the fact that we have somewhere close to fourteen hours before the deadline hits, it makes me wonder why MF isn't trying to save their own skin by changing their vote to Eifie.


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## M&F (Mar 18, 2019)

DarkAura said:


> Alright, knowing both the current votes and the fact that we have somewhere close to fourteen hours before the deadline hits, it makes me wonder why MF isn't trying to save their own skin by changing their vote to Eifie.





M&F said:


> I'm roughly 0% concerned with ~defending myself~. Hell, after I flip, you can all take your pick of which is scummiest: Eifie, or these limp-wristed bandwagonners.


Notwithstanding also that changing my vote at this very point would accomplish a precise nothing in terms of saving my smooth, beautiful skin, although I wouldn't mind trying to push a tie just so we can all argue for a little longer.


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## Butterfree (Mar 18, 2019)

Eifie said:


> I'm... literally not "insistently defending" myself, though. I pointed out that MF was contradicting herself by complaining about how the tcodf meta is to lynch people for trying to actually play the game instead of sitting around being passive and talking about how there's no info, when that is pretty much what her case on me boils down to. The reason I suspect MF is because I don't think she was making her argument about me in good faith. I think she was trying to take advantage of that meta to put suspicion on me. So when she says things that seem to support this idea, you bet I'm going to say something about it.
> 
> Why is it that you apply the statement "In a game of this size the mafia would be playing fairly carefully, I think." only to MF and not to me?


Because you are playing pretty carefully. The way that you're defending yourself isn't loud or attention-grabby, just very measured, logical defenses poking holes in what MF is saying. I called it insistent simply because of when you did it, spending more time (and two posts) poking more holes in MF's case about you specifically when it'd become less relevant. Outwardly it does look reasonable and you can explain everything you say logically - but I expect that'd be the case whether you're town or mafia, because you're good player.

Again, I'm not at all sure I'm right about this, but it a hunch that I can't shake at the moment.


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## Eifie (Mar 18, 2019)

I'm coming around to the idea that MF might actually be town here and I'm thinking a good move might be to just get my flip today in that case so she can get out of her dumb tunnel. :/ More on this later when I'm not phone posting in bed at 6:30 am but I wanted to get this thought out there in case people might comment on it before I wake up later.


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## M&F (Mar 18, 2019)

Eifie said:


> I'm coming around to the idea that MF might actually be town here and I'm thinking a good move might be to just get my flip today in that case so she can get out of her dumb tunnel. :/ More on this later when I'm not phone posting in bed at 6:30 am but I wanted to get this thought out there in case people might comment on it before I wake up later.


And that would accomplish what exactly? If you're thinking I'm town, you flipping town would be, like, not an ideal look on Butterfree and not much else. Getting me out of my "dumb tunnel" when I'm saving you for later doesn't change a lot, does it?

(Not that I necessarily buy that you'd flip Town, of course; idly musing this when it'd not be very risky isn't super alignment-indicative.)

That said, I suppose I don't see the real disadvantage of you changing your vote to yourself either. Maybe it'll pull us into a tie so we can argue longer, or maybe some dumb ass scum will get egg on their faces by quickhammering!


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## Eifie (Mar 18, 2019)

M&F said:


> And that would accomplish what exactly? If you're thinking I'm town, you flipping town would be, like, not an ideal look on Butterfree and not much else. Getting me out of my "dumb tunnel" when I'm saving you for later doesn't change a lot, does it?
> 
> (Not that I necessarily buy that you'd flip Town, of course; idly musing this when it'd not be very risky isn't super alignment-indicative.)
> 
> That said, I suppose I don't see the real disadvantage of you changing your vote to yourself either. Maybe it'll pull us into a tie so we can argue longer, or maybe some dumb ass scum will get egg on their faces by quickhammering!


If you actually are town, then lynching you today is pretty much gg. Wolves can easily make me into a scapegoat for the mislynch tomorrow in lylo. If we flip me, while I try to remind everyone that maybe you could be town, then maybe there's a better chance? I'm not sure. I think one of me and you needs to be resolved today, because it seems to be a blocker on other discussion in the thread.

I am side-eyeing Butterfree a lot right now (will get into details in a bit), but I think it's unlikely that you and Butterfree are teamed. If the two of you were w/w, pretty much all you'd have to do is get rid of the other loud voice in the thread (me) and you'd basically be set. And that would be much easier to do by leaving me alone today and then NKing me than by putting yourselves in a position to look bad by driving my lynch. You seem to be unwilling to consider any worlds in which I am town, so resolving me might be the way to go to get discussion on the right path.

You know this isn't majority lynch, right?

I suppose an alternative to resolving one of us by lynching today is everyone agreeing on something like "the cop should investigate X tonight, and tomorrow should _not speak up_ unless they get a guilty". (Note that I am not precluding either of us being the cop by suggesting this; the plan would still work fine in that case.) That would rely on us not trying to lynch the cop today and forcing them to out, and on the mafia not getting a lucky shot tonight.


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## Eifie (Mar 18, 2019)

Butterfree said:


> Because you are playing pretty carefully. The way that you're defending yourself isn't loud or attention-grabby, just very measured, logical defenses poking holes in what MF is saying. I called it insistent simply because of when you did it, spending more time (and two posts) poking more holes in MF's case about you specifically when it'd become less relevant. Outwardly it does look reasonable and you can explain everything you say logically - but I expect that'd be the case whether you're town or mafia, because you're good player.
> 
> Again, I'm not at all sure I'm right about this, but it a hunch that I can't shake at the moment.


How is doing something that will obviously call a lot of attention and suspicion toward me (see previous comment about tcodf meta) right at the beginning of the game "playing carefully"?

Also, hypothetically: if I had not made those two posts and had instead just posted #64, what would you have thought about that?


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## Eifie (Mar 18, 2019)

Eifie said:


> Also, I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts on DarkAura.


@M&F and Butterfree in particular: pls answer :(


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## Keldeo (Mar 18, 2019)

How extensions will be handled if the vote is tied at the deadline: I've decided to cap day extensions at 72 hours total (doubling the day length) so a tied vote at today's deadline will lead to a 24-hour extension. Another tie after that will lead to no one being killed.

Day 1 deadline is in approximately 1 hour. The vote list in #66 is still valid.


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## Eifie (Mar 18, 2019)

At the moment a tie seems ideal, then. There are still things I want to talk about. If someone actually goes and breaks this tie right before EoD, then like, lol them.

*Vote: Eifie*

@Keldeo: updated votecount, please?


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## Keldeo (Mar 18, 2019)

Updated vote count:

*M&F (2):* RedneckPhoenix (#51), I liek Squirtles (#55) 
*Eifie (2):* Butterfree (#62), Eifie (#76)
*RedneckPhoenix (1):* M&F (#57)
*Not voting:* Flora, DarkAura (unvote #65)

Deadline in around 30 minutes.


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## Keldeo (Mar 18, 2019)

Apologies, got pulled away.

With a tie, the deadline is extended. Day 1 ends in around 23.5 hours.


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## Butterfree (Mar 18, 2019)

Eifie said:


> How is doing something that will obviously call a lot of attention and suspicion toward me (see previous comment about tcodf meta) right at the beginning of the game "playing carefully"?
> 
> Also, hypothetically: if I had not made those two posts and had instead just posted #64, what would you have thought about that?


I think we're dealing with two different sorts of careful here. You have been drawing general attention, obviously, what with being dominant in the conversation. But you're not _careless_. Your posts are very focused and carefully put together, you've got a level-headed explanation for everything, everything you do is rigorously backed up and defended. MF, by contrast, was visibly frustrated and fed up, refused to give much of a defense, kind of insulted the players - the sort of loud, obstructive behaviour that draws ire. That's what I was referring to when I said I felt scum would be playing more carefully. You've obviously not been doing that.

If you had not made those two posts, I would have felt less suspicious of you. I was feeling more towny on you after you first responded to me, and had started to lean towards MF, but then yeah, her posts struck me as genuine, and those two posts bugged me. (I admit part of it was also simply guessing that _one_ of you was likely to be scum, though.)

As for DarkAura, I had to go back through the thread to even remember what she'd been posting, to be honest. But looking back, it is kind of interesting how first she voices suspicion of MF and then of you but doesn't really follow up with either of your answers. I'm not convinced it's _necessarily_ suspicious, but maybe worth keeping an eye on. What's your thought process?


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## I liek Squirtles (Mar 18, 2019)

DA's comments don't strike me as particularly scummy so far, but that could just be me.

*RNP*, though, strikes me as much scummier, with the sudden vote for M&F. If I learned something from the one (1) non-tcodf mafia game I played, is that the mafia prefer to latch onto bandwagons rather than start one. I realize I'm doing the exact same thing, but it's not unprompted (unlike when RNP did it). I'm also not satisfied with his justification for the vote.


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## Eifie (Mar 18, 2019)

Butterfree said:


> I think we're dealing with two different sorts of careful here. You have been drawing general attention, obviously, what with being dominant in the conversation. But you're not _careless_. Your posts are very focused and carefully put together, you've got a level-headed explanation for everything, everything you do is rigorously backed up and defended. MF, by contrast, was visibly frustrated and fed up, refused to give much of a defense, kind of insulted the players - the sort of loud, obstructive behaviour that draws ire. That's what I was referring to when I said I felt scum would be playing more carefully. You've obviously not been doing that.
> 
> If you had not made those two posts, I would have felt less suspicious of you. I was feeling more towny on you after you first responded to me, and had started to lean towards MF, but then yeah, her posts struck me as genuine, and those two posts bugged me. (I admit part of it was also simply guessing that _one_ of you was likely to be scum, though.)
> 
> As for DarkAura, I had to go back through the thread to even remember what she'd been posting, to be honest. But looking back, it is kind of interesting how first she voices suspicion of MF and then of you but doesn't really follow up with either of your answers. I'm not convinced it's _necessarily_ suspicious, but maybe worth keeping an eye on. What's your thought process?


Hmmmm. Okay, this answer is actually making me feel a lot better about you.

The reason I asked that hypothetical is that I was wondering if, if I had just asked people for their thoughts on DarkAura once MF changed her focus, you would have taken that as a reason to say that I was controlling the conversation again; i.e., you'd find some reason to characterize it as wolfy regardless of what I did. Obviously you could have just made something up in your answer, but what you're saying here seems reasonable and makes sense coming from your POV. It's the first paragraph that's most influencing my opinion of this post, anyway.

Thanks for your thoughts about DarkAura. I'd like to wait for MF to give hers before I write up my own; it'll be clear why when I do.


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## Flora (Mar 18, 2019)

A lot of the reason I tend to be quiet in mafia is because I’m terrible at reading people online. (Things Flora hasn’t learned from their decade of online existence #72) I think, to a certain extent, there’s reason to view _everyone_ with a suspicious eye. I’m gonna...reread and rethink and come to a conclusion. (Unless anyone wants to attempt to win over my allegiance)


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## RedneckPhoenix (Mar 18, 2019)

M&F _immediately_ FOS's someone once they had a vote, which is something I don't think a cautious town would do. It could be read as just cautious, which I originally parsed it as, but upon a reread it really rubbed me the wrong way. I think the bickering is sort of trying to jumble everyone up, make them suspicious of _everyone_, and that's no good.


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## DarkAura (Mar 19, 2019)

Eifie said:


> Thanks for your thoughts about DarkAura. I'd like to wait for MF to give hers before I write up my own; it'll be clear why when I do.


quoting because I'd like to hear this myself.


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## Eifie (Mar 19, 2019)

DarkAura said:


> quoting because I'd like to hear this myself.


Are you referring to my thoughts or MF's? idk what to make of MF not answering things. :(


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## DarkAura (Mar 19, 2019)

Your thoughts, since I'm guessing MF isn't posting hers in time before the day ends?


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## Eifie (Mar 19, 2019)

Yeah... I'm just gonna go ahead with mine then.

So Butterfree kind of got it with the behaviour I was noticing, but not the possible motivation behind it. DarkAura voted MF in #25 for her odd choice of vote on DarkAura over RNP, which I thought was quite a good observation. However, she never followed up on this even when MF refused to explain specifically to me, but said she would answer the question if anyone else asked it. And yet she kept her vote on MF for a long time after. It looks to me like posting things to _appear_ towny, but not actually really _being_ towny. DarkAura, why didn't you follow up on that?

The reason why I wanted to see what MF would say about her first is that I think MF and DarkAura have decent equity as a wolf team. Their initial votes on each other kind of seem like early-game distancing — that's what I thought would explain MF's vote there, and why I tried to ask her about it (and got no answer). I'm not sure if #44 fits into this theory, though, because the second paragraph of that kind of looks like a w/v interaction with MF trying to shade me in DarkAura's view for something that's not actually very indicative (asking people for their thoughts about what's going on in the game).

The above should be taken with a grain of salt because pre-flip associatives etc. etc.


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## DarkAura (Mar 19, 2019)

Eifie said:


> Yeah... I'm just gonna go ahead with mine then.
> 
> So Butterfree kind of got it with the behaviour I was noticing, but not the possible motivation behind it. DarkAura voted MF in #25 for her odd choice of vote on DarkAura over RNP, which I thought was quite a good observation. However, she never followed up on this even when MF refused to explain specifically to me, but said she would answer the question if anyone else asked it. And yet she kept her vote on MF for a long time after. It looks to me like posting things to _appear_ towny, but not actually really _being_ towny. DarkAura, why didn't you follow up on that?


I didn't follow up on it because MF's post saying it was a joke was a reasonable enough explanation to me, or at least, there's not much more you could glean from that. 

As for me keeping my vote on MF, I was planning to keep it until she had changed her vote off of me, joke or not... and then I got distracted with the whole discussion going on and didn't realize she had changed it to you a while back until I went to check on the votes for myself, which is when I unvoted and requested the voting list.

Your thoughts are reasonable, though I think you're operating on the assumption that I'm working on the same skill level as the rest of you. It's been a uh, _long_ while since I've played a serious game of mafia, so I'm missing some talking points that, by the time I realize they're there, the conversation has already moved on.


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## Eifie (Mar 19, 2019)

DarkAura said:


> I didn't follow up on it because MF's post saying it was a joke was a reasonable enough explanation to me, or at least, there's not much more you could glean from that.
> 
> As for me keeping my vote on MF, I was planning to keep it until she had changed her vote off of me, joke or not... and then I got distracted with the whole discussion going on and didn't realize she had changed it to you a while back until I went to check on the votes for myself, which is when I unvoted and requested the voting list.
> 
> Your thoughts are reasonable, though I think you're operating on the assumption that I'm working on the same skill level as the rest of you. It's been a uh, _long_ while since I've played a serious game of mafia, so I'm missing some talking points that, by the time I realize they're there, the conversation has already moved on.


Man, I am liking most of this response and thinking maybe I'm just doing the thing where I keep getting convinced by whoever posts most recently.

Was it not clear to you initially that MF's vote wasn't really serious, though? I felt it was pretty clear.


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## DarkAura (Mar 19, 2019)

Gonna be honest, it was not. Though reading back, it might've been that your post #24 is what convinced me it could have been a legit vote and me just being slow on the uptake.


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## Eifie (Mar 19, 2019)

DarkAura said:


> Gonna be honest, it was not. Though reading back, it might've been that your post #24 is what convinced me it could have been a legit vote and me just being slow on the uptake.


Oh, when I said "legit vote" I meant "a vote that counts" because there were multiple bolded names in that post.


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## DarkAura (Mar 19, 2019)

re: me being slow on the uptake gkkk

As I believe the votes are currently tied 2-2 against Eifie and RNP, and I don't particularly want to waste our only abstain, _and_ that I'm starting to think my original assessment of MF and Eifie's alignments might not be as concrete as I thought, *Redneck Phoenix*, do you have anything to say?


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## RedneckPhoenix (Mar 19, 2019)

I'm just trying to maintain a cool and composed figure in the eyes of many, many accusations, and thus, to save mine own hide, I will swap my vote to *Eifie.*




In addition, swapping a vote to make a kill right near the deadline is insanely scummy, since a mislynch and a kill would put us into LyLo. I'd vote for DarkAura but the tie is the only thing keeping me alive.



Keldeo, one last vote count?


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## RedneckPhoenix (Mar 19, 2019)

(Note that I'm not immediately suspicious of Eifie, but you're the only one I can vote for to make a tie, sorry.)


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## Keldeo (Mar 19, 2019)

RedneckPhoenix said:


> Keldeo, one last vote count?


Yep:

*RedneckPhoenix (3):* M&F (#57), I liek Squirtles (#80), DarkAura (#92)
*Eifie (3):* Butterfree (#62), Eifie (#76), RedneckPhoenix (#93)
*Not voting:* Flora

Day ends in around 2.5 hours.


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## DarkAura (Mar 19, 2019)

It is a) not a swapped vote and b) plenty of time before the deadline hits. Had we not a hard limit on abstains, I'd abstain/let the tie go through, but that's not the case. 

That being said, all your posts strike me as someone who's following the bandwagon, and I'd have to agree with Butterfree's earlier post about that being a usually scum tactic. Granted that's not at all a strong enough basis to say for sure, but given that everyone else has been participating in discussions, and that until now when you've been tied in votes you haven't said a word, it seems _weird_ to me that you're only now having a reaction.


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## Eifie (Mar 19, 2019)

I don't actually plan to keep voting for myself, fyi. (At least since no one seems to care about #70.) I just haven't decided where to put my vote yet.

Do I want to bet the entire game on MF being scum? Maybe? idk? I wish she would _talk_.

I don't particularly want to vote either of DarkAura or Butterfree anymore after their responses to my questions.

I'm feeling pretty meh about RNP, but from my experience with him he pretty much just always makes himself look scummy and I don't know how to distinguish between scummy town RNP and just scum RNP. Given that a mislynch today will likely bring us to LyLo tomorrow, I don't really know what to do about him.

ILS and Flora are just null due to lack of content.

We can always just force a tie to get infinite abstains while we're not in a must-not-mislynch situation, by the way. I asked Keldeo about this when I was telling him how silly the tie vote -> no lynch thing was before the game. :p

I wonder if no lynch might actually be the way to go... Can people give thoughts on the below quote from earlier plz.



Eifie said:


> I suppose an alternative to resolving one of us by lynching today is everyone agreeing on something like "the cop should investigate X tonight, and tomorrow should _not speak up_ unless they get a guilty". (Note that I am not precluding either of us being the cop by suggesting this; the plan would still work fine in that case.) That would rely on us not trying to lynch the cop today and forcing them to out, and on the mafia not getting a lucky shot tonight.


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## RedneckPhoenix (Mar 19, 2019)

I've been tied in votes for the sole purpose of keeping the tie. Had I known someone would vote for me with less than three hours remaining for me to defend myself, I would have promptly flipped the fuck out much earlier. You claim that I am using following as a scum tactic while you swap your vote to break the balance right before the day ends, right after staying entirely quiet almost the whole game, letting nobody get a read on you.



Personally, that's scummy to me.


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## Keldeo (Mar 19, 2019)

Confirming that a tied vote causing no one to be lynched does not count toward the one-abstain limit. Sorry that it was unclear.

Also, for the record, I will count a post with multiple bolded names as a vote toward the last bolded name that's a living player. So if all of the bolded names aren't in the game, then it's as if the person hadn't bolded anything.


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## Eifie (Mar 19, 2019)

RedneckPhoenix said:


> You claim that I am using following as a scum tactic while you swap your vote to break the balance right before the day ends, right after staying entirely quiet almost the whole game, letting nobody get a read on you.


This is a bit of a weird thing to ask, I guess, but elaborate on DarkAura "staying entirely quiet almost the whole game" for me? Personally I feel she's clearly trying to contribute to discussion.


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## DarkAura (Mar 19, 2019)

@Eifie: Wait, a tie doesn't count as our one abstain? That changes things.

As for that plan which i somehow totally missed wtf, that sounds reasonable. Who did you have in mind for the cop to investigate?

@RNP: Huh? I feel like I've been rather active in this game, at least probably moreso than the inactive peeps and you.

And "for the sole purpose of keeping the tie" was _not_ the case, as the tie was enabled by Eifie. Had ILS not switched from MF to you, there would still be a tie. Your logic isn't making entirely a lot of sense here.


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## RedneckPhoenix (Mar 19, 2019)

Eifie said:


> I'm feeling pretty meh about RNP, but from my experience with him he pretty much just always makes himself look scummy and I don't know how to distinguish between scummy town RNP and just scum RNP.


:(





Eifie said:


> We can always just force a tie to get infinite abstains while we're not in a must-not-mislynch situation, by the way. I asked Keldeo about this when I was telling him how silly the tie vote -> no lynch thing was before the game. :p
> 
> I wonder if no lynch might actually be the way to go... Can people give thoughts on the below quote from earlier plz.



I was wondering about this. With this confirmation, DA, what do you think?


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## RedneckPhoenix (Mar 19, 2019)

DarkAura said:


> @RNP: Huh? I feel like I've been rather active in this game, at least probably moreso than the inactive peeps and you.



I mean, you just disappear for, like, a whole page at a time half the time, only interjecting with like two lines of text at a time. Short, hard to read, not illuminating.



DarkAura said:


> And "for the sole purpose of keeping the tie" was _not_ the case, as the tie was enabled by Eifie. Had ILS not switched from MF to you, there would still be a tie. Your logic isn't making entirely a lot of sense here.


Yeahhhhhh... worded poorly. As in, I assumed we would keep the tie until EOD, such that I wasn't worried about being lynched, and had no reaction as such.


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## Eifie (Mar 19, 2019)

DarkAura said:


> As for that plan which i somehow totally missed wtf, that sounds reasonable. Who did you have in mind for the cop to investigate?


Checking either me or MF seems like the best idea, I think. I would prefer myself because I know that this means the cop won't have to out themself.

If we were to do this, I think the best thing here would be to abstain (preferably through means of a tie). This means that we don't risk trying to lynch the cop right now and forcing them to claim, and also that the mafia has one extra person to pick from tonight and is less likely to get lucky and hit the cop.


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## DarkAura (Mar 19, 2019)

@RNP: Yeah no, knowing now that we have theoretically infinite abstains, I'm all for keeping the tie now.

And valid, but those pages I was absent from were mostly just MF, Eifie, and Butterfree debating amongst each other. It's a bit hard to get a word in edgewise.

@Eifie: Makes sense, okay. So we have the cop investigate you, and it should go without saying the doctor protect you as well. Is that plan good with everyone else?


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## Eifie (Mar 19, 2019)

DarkAura said:


> @Eifie: Makes sense, okay. So we have the cop investigate you, and it should go without saying the doctor protect you as well. Is that plan good with everyone else?


Disagree about the doctor protecting me. I think the doctor should protect whoever they want.


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## DarkAura (Mar 19, 2019)

I was about to ask why but then I actually thought about it, your way's smarter.


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## Eifie (Mar 19, 2019)

By the way:



DarkAura said:


> given that everyone else has been participating in discussions


ILS and Flora though?


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## RedneckPhoenix (Mar 19, 2019)

And nobody influence the doctor! The less everyone knows about who the doctor trusts the most, the better.


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## DarkAura (Mar 19, 2019)

Eifie said:


> By the way:
> 
> ILS and Flora though?


I meant in a majority sense, even if the majority is like, four people.

And in ILS's case, he's _sort of_ participated by at least giving a reason for his vote? It's not much, but it's more than I could have said about RNP before now.


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## M&F (Mar 19, 2019)

For the record, if my activity/responsiveness has been spotty, I'd say this is primarily because I'm stuck in a sleep deprivation cycle that I should maybe not have joined a mafia game in the middle of, and secondarily because I pick and choose when I engage with a player that I'm suspicious of. (although, for clarity, not sharing my thoughts on DarkAura earlier was the former; I'd meant to but it kept slipping me by)

I realize this sort of thing is like, indistinguishable from being scum, but I'll just have to live or die with that.

For the record, volunteering to get copped when nobody else is particularly likely to make a counter-offer actually makes me quite a bit less suspicious of Eifie. Admittedly that wasn't such a hard FoS I had anyway, but being incisive, if riskier, tends to be more fruitful.

Of course, I wouldn't mind getting confirmed, myself, but I still have to put some thought into what information helps the town as a whole the most instead of just what makes the game easier for me.

Anyways, do we actually get more Days out of blowing the abstain/pseudo-abstain horn now? It's like, I don't mind expending it whatsoever, but it's like... yeah, we won't be in LyLo next Day, but we'd still be in MyLo, and without the possibility of abstaining that's the same shit as being in LyLo.


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## Eifie (Mar 19, 2019)

We keep the possibility of abstain if we no lynch through a tie instead of by actually voting abstain.


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## Eifie (Mar 19, 2019)

Also, I'm putting DarkAura in my town pile for now. She answered quite well to my earlier doubts and I think it was genuine, especially now that I realize how my post #24 can be otherwise interpreted... She's been displaying original thought and I like that a lot. I think she looks good from the back-and-forth with RNP just now.


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## M&F (Mar 19, 2019)

M&F said:


> For the record,





M&F said:


> For the record,


index of sleep deprivation #1 even look

see my life would be 50% easier if I could edit it out everytime I wrote my mafia posts this shittily


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## M&F (Mar 19, 2019)

Eifie said:


> We keep the possibility of abstain if we no lynch through a tie instead of by actually voting abstain.


... Huh, I thought Keldeo was clarifying the exact opposite, but on rereading the post, well.

That sure is an exploit and a half! So... much as I despise abstaining (or fake-abstaining as it were), a mislynch is significantly more dangerous in this setup than usual, so I'm all for it.


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## Eifie (Mar 19, 2019)

I gotta go soon and I guess we're decided anyway, so I just want to say thanks everyone for having a productive D1 with me for possibly the first time in a tcodf mafia game. It was great and you're all great.

Cop, investigate me tonight and tomorrow do not speak up about the result unless you get a guilty.

(Sorry about big letters, want to make sure everybody in the game reads that.)


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## Keldeo (Mar 19, 2019)

*Final Day 1 Votes:*

*RedneckPhoenix (3):* M&F (#57), I liek Squirtles (#80), DarkAura (#92)
*Eifie (3):* Butterfree (#62), Eifie (#76), RedneckPhoenix (#93)
*Not voting:* Flora

With a tie, no one was lynched. 48 hours for night actions.


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## Keldeo (Mar 20, 2019)

(late flavor!)

The townspeople quickly decide that the best course of action is, of course, to kick people out from the gathering until the conspirators admit defeat. They debate through the day about who the most likely secret killers are, and who it would be best to exile, with everyone speaking up.



Spoiler: Cats



 

When it comes to what cats say, some cats roar, and some cats purr! The lion (native to sub-Saharan Africa and India) roars, while the snow leopard (which lives in Central and South Asia) purrs. No cat both roars and purrs, a difference that some but not all researchers attribute to the structure and formation of a certain bone, the hyoid bone in the neck. Domestic cats purr with a frequency from 25 to 150 Hertz.


Their conversation is spirited enough that they barely notice how much time has passed until someone points out the growing darkness despite the overcast sky. It's clear that they must decide soon - and so they decide that the best way forward is to keep everyone around for another day. The townspeople head to bed tense, not knowing what the night will hold...

*With a tie, no one was lynched. It is now Night 1.*


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## Keldeo (Mar 20, 2019)

(Ending the night 24 hours early because I've received all actions!)

Sunrise sees the sleuths of Meowfialand approach their usual gathering place with narrowed eyes and uneasy expressions. They quickly find that their wariness is justified: *DarkAura* is nowhere to be seen. It seems the mysterious cabal has finally made a move.



Spoiler: Cat (DarkAura's Role)





Hello, DarkAura! 

You are *Jaguar, the Town Unhealable Cop!* The biggest big cat of South America, jaguars have a distinctive coat pattern called rosettes, which you can tell from leopards by the jaguar rosette's central spot. Unlike many cats, jaguars are strong swimmers and have been seen diving to catch animals. Jaguars tend to listen before ambushing prey, rather than chasing them down.

Every night starting Night 1, you can target another player in order to learn whether they are Town or Mafia.

You can't be healed. In other words, if the Doctor ever targets you, their action will fail. Neither you nor the Doctor will be informed that this is the case.

You win when all Mafia are dead.


An investigation turns up more clues. Near DarkAura's typical spot, a small scrap of paper reading "So far, I have learned tha", the rest of the sentence torn away. Two round stones - perhaps left behind by the perpetrator, perhaps just two round stones. DarkAura's notebook, detailing her views and suspicions, but the person who discovered it is soon accused of having fabricated pages overnight. With more information but one fewer voice, the townspeople begin the day's discussion with renewed focus.

*DarkAura has died. She was Jaguar, Town Unhealable Cop.

It is now Day 2. 72 hours for discussion.*


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## Eifie (Mar 20, 2019)

oh :C


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## Eifie (Mar 20, 2019)

Two reasons I can think of why the mafia might want to go for DarkAura:
- she was one of the only people being townread by anyone else yesterday (I'm not sure if anyone else even had any townreads yesterday? Butterfree seems to TR MF.)
- her push on RNP near EoD.

RNP's arguments against DarkAura were, well, not very good ones. He misrepresented her activity in the game a lot with statements that actually seemed to better apply to himself. He's been playing purely reactively. I said before that I don't know how to distinguish between scummy town RNP and scum RNP but maybe this really is that simple and I was just being an idiot. I want to start here for today.

*Vote: RedneckPhoenix*

Gonna try to look at some older games of his to figure it out, but idk how useful that'll be since we're doing a different style of play in this game.

(Yes I know WIFOM and framing people with nightkills etc.)


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## RedneckPhoenix (Mar 20, 2019)

It's- what? You just pointed out the reason that would be stupid for me to do. The mafia, expecting me to be a bad player (because I sort of am) would kill my main accuser and a very proactive player, to kill two birds with one scone, making me suspicious and taking the heat off themselves.

I don't like how you're voting right off the bat before discussion can even start. You're falling right into the mafia's trap like that.


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## Eifie (Mar 20, 2019)

RedneckPhoenix said:


> It's- what? You just pointed out the reason that would be stupid for me to do. The mafia, expecting me to be a bad player (because I sort of am) would kill my main accuser and a very proactive player, to kill two birds with one scone, making me suspicious and taking the heat off themselves.
> 
> I don't like how you're voting right off the bat before discussion can even start. You're falling right into the mafia's trap like that.


I don't want to read a _huge_ amount into the nightkill because it's just a crapshoot what level of WIFOM the mafia were operating on, but it did make me look at your exchange with DarkAura again.

Me voting doesn't mean that this is my final decision for the day and I just plan to do nothing for the rest of it. It's just where I would like to put pressure right now.

What pings me a lot about your response here is that you said you don't like something I'm doing, in a way that you would do if you were going to express suspicion of me (which would be quite reasonable here)... but then you say I'm "falling right into the mafia's trap", i.e., apparently I'm not one of them in your mind. Kind of seems like TMI? Someone else chime in on this, please.


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## Flora (Mar 21, 2019)

So what we know is that darkaura didn’t investigate rnp, yeah?

I don’t necessarily think that DA bein axed means that RNP is maf...but it is a possibility!


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## I liek Squirtles (Mar 21, 2019)

Well, this is incredibly frustrating. We're at LyLo right now, right?


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## RedneckPhoenix (Mar 21, 2019)

nnno. right? 4-2, also a doc still. it's a weak MyLo i think. if we lynch wrong, ded.


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## Butterfree (Mar 21, 2019)

Flora said:


> So what we know is that darkaura didn’t investigate rnp, yeah?


Wait, what? What do you mean by this? (I mean, presumably she targeted Eifie because that was the plan, but. Not sure what you're getting at with this comment.)

RNP's response there felt reeally defensive and pretty scummy, but on the other hand, like Eifie, I feel like he often comes across that way even when he isn't scum, so it's hard to say for sure. It does strike me as very simplistic for the mafia to go for killing the person who was just accusing them; could be done as a "they'll never guess we actually did the silly simplistic thing!", I guess, but I don't feel like the meta usually operates at that level here.

DarkAura being killed kind of gave me pause; I was expecting them to go for Eifie, MF or me as the people most active in trying to solve the game, particularly since we ended yesterday with none of us seeming to be under serious suspicion (or at least I was feeling pretty good about Eifie too when I caught up after the end of the day, especially with her volunteering to be investigated), and one would think they'd want to disrupt a budding town alliance.

So I went back and it struck me that DarkAura is clearly the person who expresses the most proactive interest in Eifie's investigation plan, asking who she has in mind to investigate and clarifying the plan. In hindsight, it seems clear that's because she was the cop, which kind of makes sense: surely if a plan is being proposed involving you using your power, you'd be interested and want to hash out the details. What if the mafia _guessed_ that DarkAura was the cop based on her response to the plan and targeted her _because_ of that?

With that, it occurred to me that, in theory, scum!Eifie could have proposed the investigation plan in the hope of being able to make such an educated guess as to who the cop was, and offered herself for investigation as a gamble for near-foolproof town cred: making that offer at all made her sound almost definitely town, and then conveniently the cop dies before being able to actually confirm. (Presumably, in this scenario, if the response to the plan hadn't given the mafia a strong hunch as to who the cop was, they'd just have proposed investigating someone else instead; if they'd been wrong about DarkAura, then, well, at least the real cop would presumably reveal themselves today and the remaining mafia member could definitely get rid of them tonight.)

...I dunno, I may be wayyy overthinking this; this sounds super-complicated and risky. Still, the fact it occurred to me makes me unable to entirely dismiss it; Eifie _could_ still be mafia. Did anyone yesterday guess DarkAura was the cop based on her posts? It's hard to tell how plausible that'd be.


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## Flora (Mar 21, 2019)

Butterfree said:


> Wait, what? What do you mean by this? (I mean, presumably she targeted Eifie because that was the plan, but. Not sure what you're getting at with this comment.)


Apologies for non-clarity! I’m on phone. My thought process there was that she voted for RNP alongside several others whom I couldn’t remember, which meant that RNP _probs_ wasn’t her investigation target n1. In retrospect I maybe should have waited till I got my tablet back, but I was annoyed at myself for not voting yesterday. So I. Posted before thinking. Bad mafia strategy, Flora.

I was surprised that DA was the cop? But also, there wasn’t much at all to go off of.


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## Eifie (Mar 21, 2019)

Flora is either derping or fake-derping really hard and idk if I should clear her for it


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## Eifie (Mar 21, 2019)

Eifie said:


> Flora is either derping or fake-derping really hard and idk if I should clear them for it


edit by reposting, sorry


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## Eifie (Mar 21, 2019)

2am thoughts

I think RNP/ILS is the most probable wolf team at the moment

AMA


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## Eifie (Mar 21, 2019)

k I'm awake. No one asked me anything but that's fine I guess.


 I think Butterfree is town. #127 is just _so villagery_. She like, comes up with an improbable thought and just chases it all the way to its conclusion and I really, really don't think a wolf just comes up with a theory like that and decides to share it with us. I hope this makes sense because otherwise I'm having a really hard time articulating how towny that is. I was already feeling decent about her after her responses to me yesterday but that post makes me a lot more confident.

 For obvious reasons I put a lot of thought into possible wolf team compositions including MF on D1. I do not think MF can be teamed with RNP or ILS:
 A big part of why I don't think MF/RNP can be w/w is MF's post #23. I really, really don't think wolf MF purposely avoids voting her partner here. It was still RVS, she would have a myriad of easy excuses to later change her vote, and random-voting DarkAura for something RNP did first just calls attention to the fact that she _didn't_ vote RNP. It'd be pretty silly. And there's no way wolf MF is afraid of voting her partner there.
 I don't think MF/ILS can be teamed because of MF's post #42. Wolves don't forget that their partner is in the game, and wolves notice when their partner hasn't posted yet. I think it is so improbable that she could be faking that that I'm not willing to consider it.

 I want to derpclear Flora. This is the part I'm most shaky on. I have decided that I definitely don't think they're fake-derping, that's just not a thing in tcodf meta. Flora is clearly unaware of multiple important things that happened in the thread yesterday (important imo, anyway) and that suggests that they don't have a wolf partner who is talking to them about the game. I think wolves _must_ have had a decent grasp on the thread to make that DarkAura kill. Some of the parts that are shaky here is that maybe the wolves could just not be talking to each other, or maybe the things Flora is unaware of just didn't come up. The temptation to derpclear is really strong, though.

So from the living players, if I exclude myself and Butterfree (1) and for the moment Flora (3), that leaves: MF, ILS, RNP. By (2), I'm crossing out the options of MF/ILS and MF/RNP. That leaves ILS/RNP as the most likely possibility in my view.

Thoughts?


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## Eifie (Mar 21, 2019)

I liek Squirtles said:


> DA's comments don't strike me as particularly scummy so far, but that could just be me.
> 
> *RNP*, though, strikes me as much scummier, with the sudden vote for M&F. If I learned something from the one (1) non-tcodf mafia game I played, is that the mafia prefer to latch onto bandwagons rather than start one. I realize I'm doing the exact same thing, but it's not unprompted (unlike when RNP did it). I'm also not satisfied with his justification for the vote.


Okay, this is giving me pause. Given the timing of this it really doesn't seem like a bussing vote.

Maybe I'm wrong to derpclear Flora, then.


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## Flora (Mar 21, 2019)

Eifie said:


> Flora is clearly unaware of multiple important things that happened in the thread yesterday (important imo, anyway)


I reread the thread, lost track of time and forgot to vote, and then honestly forgot a lot of what I read. I definitely should have held off on posting till I got my tablet and could rereread the thread. Being a Flora is suffering.

But! I shouldn’t be making entire posts shorting in myself! That’s bad form. 

I’m...inclined to agree re: butterfree as town, and I’m a biiiit more questioning towards RNP and ILS, but I also haven’t really played enough mafia with them to get a feel for how they typically play. So!



Eifie said:


> edit by reposting, sorry


I get why editing in Mafia forum is illegal but this is like the ONE PROBLEM with it. Thanks though


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## Eifie (Mar 21, 2019)

Flora said:


> I reread the thread, lost track of time and forgot to vote, and then honestly forgot a lot of what I read. I definitely should have held off on posting till I got my tablet and could rereread the thread. Being a Flora is suffering.
> 
> But! I shouldn’t be making entire posts shorting in myself! That’s bad form.
> 
> I’m...inclined to agree re: butterfree as town, and I’m a biiiit more questioning towards RNP and ILS, but I also haven’t really played enough mafia with them to get a feel for how they typically play. So!


Nah, I appreciate getting your thoughts from before you reread the thread. Who would you have voted yesterday?

I don't know if you've reread yet (you don't need to before answering), but do you mind giving me a quick rundown on stuff that happened in the thread on d1 from your pov?


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## I liek Squirtles (Mar 21, 2019)

I went back and reread the EoD discussion between DA and RNP (#92-#93) and the way he tried to kind of discredit DA felt incredibly shifty to me. Overall, whenever someone's come after him, he tries to redirect the blame to someone else. I might be overthinking this whole thing, but it reads very scummily to me.

*RNP*


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## M&F (Mar 21, 2019)

my god I have no concept of what 48 hours is anymore how long have we been rolling

ahem

So, I'm withholding the vote for now because it's too early for the bandwagon to go up to 3, but RedneckPhoenix is still looking like prime lynch material today. Nothing's quite cleared him since our last sojourn, and this choice of nightkill is one that can possibly be attributed to suspicion control. (A framing kill, on the other hand, is significantly less likely, because presumably the proper target for one such would be yours truly. Going after DarkAura is subtler, perhaps, but there's no point in being too subtle if your gambit is reliant on the townsfolk noticing something.)

Regardless, we _are_ at MyLo, so, any lynch is a gamble with the whole pot. Doesn't mean we should necessarily abstain -- gambling is better than just losing slower -- but no amount of scrutinity is too small.

There were no night actions N0, were there? Alas, if DarkAura had gotten any investigations in, we might've had the opportunity to go see if we could glean past results from her behavior.



Butterfree said:


> With that, it occurred to me that, in theory, scum!Eifie could have proposed the investigation plan in the hope of being able to make such an educated guess as to who the cop was, and offered herself for investigation as a gamble for near-foolproof town cred: making that offer at all made her sound almost definitely town, and then conveniently the cop dies before being able to actually confirm. (Presumably, in this scenario, if the response to the plan hadn't given the mafia a strong hunch as to who the cop was, they'd just have proposed investigating someone else instead; if they'd been wrong about DarkAura, then, well, at least the real cop would presumably reveal themselves today and the remaining mafia member could definitely get rid of them tonight.)
> 
> ...I dunno, I may be wayyy overthinking this; this sounds super-complicated and risky. Still, the fact it occurred to me makes me unable to entirely dismiss it; Eifie _could_ still be mafia. Did anyone yesterday guess DarkAura was the cop based on her posts? It's hard to tell how plausible that'd be.


There's a certain level of gambit beyond which, if anyone were actually pulling it off, they might as well win.



Eifie said:


> Flora is either derping or fake-derping really hard and idk if I should clear her for it


Derping isn't really alignment-indicative, is it?



Eifie said:


> A big part of why I don't think MF/RNP can be w/w is MF's post #23. I really, really don't think wolf MF purposely avoids voting her partner here. It was still RVS, she would have a myriad of easy excuses to later change her vote, and random-voting DarkAura for something RNP did first just calls attention to the fact that she _didn't_ vote RNP. It'd be pretty silly. And there's no way wolf MF is afraid of voting her partner there.


Right, since I'm giving you the benefit of doubt a little more, I might as well explain the joke from D1. I was bandwagonning on DarkAura for bandwagonning. Hypocritical humour. Ha-ha.

You can read as little or as much further into it as you'd like, anyway, although personally I wouldn't recommend reading all that much.


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## RedneckPhoenix (Mar 21, 2019)

I liek Squirtles said:


> Overall, whenever someone's come after him, he tries to redirect the blame to someone else. I might be overthinking this whole thing, but it reads very scummily to me.
> 
> *RNP*




yeah, and? you're all trying to "clear" people, but that just doesn't make sense in a time when the cop is dead and nobody can _really_ be cleared. 

the only thing i /can/ do is go at someone else. really, clearing myself is impossible. nobody can really be cleared. what I can do, however, upon accusation, is bring attention to someone suspicious. i, personally, don't trust Flora, because from lack of informed messages I can't get a read, but i won't vote just yet.


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## Eifie (Mar 21, 2019)

M&F said:


> Derping isn't really alignment-indicative, is it?


See my later post explaining what I meant, if you haven't already. It's my weakest read by a long shot, though.



M&F said:


> Right, since I'm giving you the benefit of doubt a little more, I might as well explain the joke from D1. I was bandwagonning on DarkAura for bandwagonning. Hypocritical humour. Ha-ha.
> 
> You can read as little or as much further into it as you'd like, anyway, although personally I wouldn't recommend reading all that much.


Yeah, I know that part. The point is that RNP did it first. Unless you mean it was a bandwagon once there were two people already on it...? omg please just let me hold on to this not w/w read, it makes things so much easier


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## Eifie (Mar 21, 2019)

I have more stuff I want to comment on, but there's probably too much of me in the thread rn and idk if that's productive so I'm going to sit back for a little while, I think. @ me if you specifically want me to reply to something.


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## Flora (Mar 21, 2019)

Eifie said:


> Nah, I appreciate getting your thoughts from before you reread the thread. Who would you have voted yesterday?
> 
> I don't know if you've reread yet (you don't need to before answering), but do you mind giving me a quick rundown on stuff that happened in the thread on d1 from your pov?


Oh Christ thanks autocorrect for “shorting in” myself. Phones are hard. (Also i FORGOT THERE WERE NO N0 ACTIONS. that explains a lot of the dumb!)

Honestly, I was debating going for RNP before the reread, and I think? That’s where I’m leaning still? We’ll see.

As for what i recall of d1: eif and m&f debating back-and-forth, putting each other up for noms (which at some point switched to RNP v Eif?), DA nomming RNP before/after nominating....someone else I can’t remember? (Or was that Keldeo. That may have been a joke moderator nomination, now that I think about it.), ILS nominating RNP...

I didn’t reread yet, and I’m going to as soon as I post this, but I do stand by my particular wariness of ILS and RNP, at least from today. Squirtles has been p accusatory out of the gate, and RNP’s been quite, quite over-defensive. I want to reread before I draw proper conclusions on eif and M&F?


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## M&F (Mar 21, 2019)

Eifie said:


> I want to derpclear Flora. This is the part I'm most shaky on. I have decided that I definitely don't think they're fake-derping, that's just not a thing in tcodf meta. Flora is clearly unaware of multiple important things that happened in the thread yesterday (important imo, anyway) and that suggests that they don't have a wolf partner who is talking to them about the game. I think wolves _must_ have had a decent grasp on the thread to make that DarkAura kill. Some of the parts that are shaky here is that maybe the wolves could just not be talking to each other, or maybe the things Flora is unaware of just didn't come up. The temptation to derpclear is really strong, though.


Oh, yes, I suppose that's what you meant. I don't know that that's a very strong clear; not every scum team is incredibly communicative.

Besides, it's possible to have settled on DarkAura without paying much attention to the thread as well; supposing you'd not read a damn thing, she's just about the best player here who isn't ostensibly likely to get docced. That said, though, there seems to be quite bit more of us who are on the ball than otherwise, so I suppose it's not exceptionally likely that this is the actual collective rationale.



Eifie said:


> Yeah, I know that part. The point is that RNP did it first. Unless you mean it was a bandwagon once there were two people already on it...? omg please just let me hold on to this not w/w read, it makes things so much easier


look, by the time I arrived to make the joke, he was already trying to lynch the exotic cat instead


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## Eifie (Mar 22, 2019)

M&F said:


> Oh, yes, I suppose that's what you meant. I don't know that that's a very strong clear; not every scum team is incredibly communicative.


It's definitely not very strong. It would be a lot stronger in an ideal game where wolves are communicating a lot and everyone is being active. :/

It was very tempting to apply Occam's razor when I was just thinking about things in bed at 2 am, but I think I was probably wrong to do it. What do you think of the post from ILS I quoted earlier (#80)? His vote changed things from 2-2-1 Eifie-MF-RNP to 2-2-1 Eifie-RNP-MF. He never moved it after that, so if ILS and RNP are wolves together it seems like he'd have to be hard bussing there and that is just a terrible move in a 7p cop game. Do you think that warrants an RNP/ILS exclusion? If RNP and ILS aren't teamed, I think Flora is almost certainly a wolf.



M&F said:


> look, by the time I arrived to make the joke, he was already trying to lynch the exotic cat instead


... I totally forgot about that vote (and apparently so did DarkAura) and after however many days I _finally_ understand oh my god


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## RedneckPhoenix (Mar 22, 2019)

I think. I'm still not mafia. Eifie seems to think ILS is mafia. Thus. *ILS.*


Thank you for coming to my TED talk.


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## Eifie (Mar 22, 2019)

RedneckPhoenix said:


> The mafia, expecting me to be a bad player (because I sort of am) would kill my main accuser and a very proactive player


This is literally the opposite of the opinion you had on DarkAura at the end of D1...



RedneckPhoenix said:


> I think. I'm still not mafia. Eifie seems to think ILS is mafia. Thus. *ILS.*
> 
> 
> Thank you for coming to my TED talk.


You are aware that if we lynch wrong here the game is basically lost, right? So why don't you have any of your own thoughts? What happened to accusing Flora, and why are you apparently so sure I can be trusted when your opinion earlier seemed to be that for some reason we shouldn't be having any opinions on who is town?

tbh I don't know how much I want to engage with this because I think RNP has gone well beyond scummy town at this point and I can't see him not being the lynch today...


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## Butterfree (Mar 23, 2019)

Eifie said:


> [*]I don't think MF/ILS can be teamed because of MF's post #42. Wolves don't forget that their partner is in the game, and wolves notice when their partner hasn't posted yet. I think it is so improbable that she could be faking that that I'm not willing to consider it.


Hmm. I'm not quite sure. The original post being referenced in #42 is #29, the post where MF turns around to attack you:



			
				MF said:
			
		

> Great! Now that we seem to be largely done with poking inactives and the kid gloves are off, I can start voicing how suspicious it sounded that Eifie was scoping me out for a "town alliance" on D1, joke or no joke. Turning on me when I show no signs of cooperating -- and trying to use that as a scumread -- isn't a great look either.


That says _largely_ done with poking inactives, and it's mainly just referring to how the game's moved on to the serious accusations stage. Furthermore, it's an off-hand statement in a sort of an emotionally charged post, something you wouldn't be thinking particularly hard about. All in all, I can easily picture MF making this post even if ILS was her partner and still inactive. And given she's made that post, #42 makes sense either way - in fact, it'd be a nice way to distance if they _were_ a team, by retroactively making it sound like MF was making a stronger statement on poking inactives.



			
				MF said:
			
		

> (A framing kill, on the other hand, is significantly less likely, because presumably the proper target for one such would be yours truly. Going after DarkAura is subtler, perhaps, but there's no point in being too subtle if your gambit is reliant on the townsfolk noticing something.)


I'm... not sure about that? You did vote for RNP, yeah, but you only _talked_ about him in that one post, which was mostly not even about him; your initial aggressive suspicion of Eifie was a fair bit more memorable, at least to me, and meanwhile DarkAura was prominently questioning RNP towards the end of the day - my overall feeling before rereading, at least, was that the main person grilling RNP was DarkAura rather than you.



			
				MF said:
			
		

> There's a certain level of gambit beyond which, if anyone were actually pulling it off, they might as well win.


Haha, that's a fair point. I realize it's super-elaborate and far-fetched, but it was a train of thought that I had and it does explain the mafia's luck in getting the cop first try! I will be extremely impressed if that's actually it, though.

So, hrmm. I'm not ready to dismiss the possibility of MF/ILS at this point; it may be my best guess at the mafia team at the moment, actually, since viewed in that light #42 does have a potential air of grabbing an opportunity to seem completely unaware of ILS, _and_ looking back at ILS's record, he votes for MF early more or less just quickly parroting everyone else about her being defensive, only to flip to RNP in his next post, tying RNP with Eifie and putting MF out of danger. There does seem to be a bit of synergy there, while attempting some distancing - could be a coincidence, I guess, but it's definitely something.

On the other hand, RNP really is being super scummy right now. I'm not sure who'd be mafia with him, though - even with MF explaining the joke vote further, I really don't think D1 reads like they might feasibly be partnered, and the aforementioned ILS vote also seems unlikely if it was them. I'm inclined to agree with Eifie's assessment that Flora would probably be unlikely to miss the fact there were no night actions N0 if they were mafia (or had any kind of night action). It _could_ in theory be Eifie (RNP _has_ been following Eifie's lead with no explanation, and took special note of how he didn't actually suspect Eifie)... but not only would that kind of require the cop-guessing gambit to be true; it'd also mean Eifie's going _hard_ after her own partner right now, which on its own seems pretty unlikely. I guess ILS _could_ have banked on switching his vote again if things got dire? Or, I mean, maybe it's Flora and they just communicated _really_ badly, but that just feels... a bit too much.

I think my overall conclusion has to be that the most plausible scum teams from my point of view are MF/ILS or RNP/ILS, and given it's important to lynch correctly today, I have to go with *ILS*, who would be scum in both cases.


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## Eifie (Mar 23, 2019)

I actually think MF and RNP _could_ make sense as a scum team based on D1 since the RVS thing no longer applies. MF put a vote on RNP in #57 but put zero effort into actually pushing that lynch. RNP barely showed any conviction about his MF vote either. I want to conclude from MF's specifically addressing the joke that she and RNP aren't paired though, since surely it would be easier for her if they were paired to just let me go on thinking their interaction could not be w/w rather than try to WIFOM it like that, right?

Wow, I never noticed that Flora said they forgot there were no N0 actions. That was after I posted my derpclear assessment though, so it's not such a strong point in their favour as it would be otherwise; at that point it'd be easily fakeable if they wanted to play up that angle. The things I was talking about them missing were the fact that we came up with that whole cop plan (which I even _posted in huge letters_ to make sure everyone would see... sigh) and the fact that we _meant_ to tie the vote yesterday and so it doesn't matter that they forgot to vote (but this one is not any kind of indicative). I would expect the mafia to be aware of the cop plan... but if the team is RNP/Flora, I can kind of see the wolves' communication being that bad, really.

Man, I don't know what to do. RNP and ILS, if either of you is town, we really need to find you and the best way for that to happen is for you to get in here and show us by putting as much effort as you can into solving! The game is riding on us figuring things out _today_.

Ugh, hindsight is 20/20 and all but _man_ I wish we'd gone through with that RNP lynch on D1 instead of playing it safe. lolme.


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## Butterfree (Mar 23, 2019)

Flora indicated in #128, pre-derpclear, that they'd assumed DarkAura had done an investigation on N0. (You may have missed it because they referred to it as N1, but in context, it definitely appears that's what they mean, or at least I definitely read it that way - they're drawing conclusions based on DarkAura having voted for RNP as well as several others on D1, which she wouldn't have done if she'd investigated RNP and knew his alignment.)


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## Butterfree (Mar 23, 2019)

Eifie said:


> I actually think MF and RNP _could_ make sense as a scum team based on D1 since the RVS thing no longer applies. MF put a vote on RNP in #57 but put zero effort into actually pushing that lynch. RNP barely showed any conviction about his MF vote either. I want to conclude from MF's specifically addressing the joke that she and RNP aren't paired though, since surely it would be easier for her if they were paired to just let me go on thinking their interaction could not be w/w rather than try to WIFOM it like that, right?


Hmm, maybe. What makes me specifically disinclined to think so is the way that they _both_ voted for each other, and MF gave some very solid reasons to vote RNP there, at a time when she was under heavy fire - it was definitely a move that risked making the two of them the leading bandwagons. In this setup, a mafia member under heavy suspicion trying to deflect significant suspicion onto their partner rather than literally anyone else seems really risky - it just guarantees losing one half of the team while drawing a lot of attention to the other, and while it _could_ work well as distancing, I don't think that'd be worth sacrificing half the team for when you could be trying to set up a viable town counterwagon instead.


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## M&F (Mar 23, 2019)

I really ought to reread some stuff from D1 when my head is hopefully clearer after some proper sleep, hmm.



Eifie said:


> It was very tempting to apply Occam's razor when I was just thinking about things in bed at 2 am, but I think I was probably wrong to do it. What do you think of the post from ILS I quoted earlier (#80)? His vote changed things from 2-2-1 Eifie-MF-RNP to 2-2-1 Eifie-RNP-MF. He never moved it after that, so if ILS and RNP are wolves together it seems like he'd have to be hard bussing there and that is just a terrible move in a 7p cop game. Do you think that warrants an RNP/ILS exclusion? If RNP and ILS aren't teamed, I think Flora is almost certainly a wolf.


RedneckPhoenix and ILS being a scumteam was one of my favoured hypotheses until that came about, as a matter of fact. It's worth noting that not every move in a mafia game is a winner exactly, so there are no guarantees, but it does seem that turning on your scumbuddy that hard and fast is unlikely.



Butterfree said:


> I'm... not sure about that? You did vote for RNP, yeah, but you only _talked_ about him in that one post, which was mostly not even about him; your initial aggressive suspicion of Eifie was a fair bit more memorable, at least to me, and meanwhile DarkAura was prominently questioning RNP towards the end of the day - my overall feeling before rereading, at least, was that the main person grilling RNP was DarkAura rather than you.


That's probably fair enough. If there's not one particular player whose death would make RedneckPhoenix look _very_ guilty, we can probably shelf the possibility of a framing kill anyway, so I suppose I'll have to double back and check whether DarkAura definitely pushed so hard as to really stand out.



Eifie said:


> Ugh, hindsight is 20/20 and all but _man_ I wish we'd gone through with that RNP lynch on D1 instead of playing it safe. lolme.


this is why you listen to mama-

Time wasn't very much on our side back then, which was probably half the problem, but I suppose the real mistake was trading in the lynch for an extra abstain. We can technically guarantee another day's survival by abstaining, but we missed out on the one benefit of having our own drop dead -- that it limits the pool of who could possibly be scum -- and we were also very unfortunate (or very outplayed) such that the only possible useful night action for us at this point is a successful doccing.

I almost have to wonder if we're not better off abstaining, if only to cash in on that sole consequence-free dead townie. Worst case scenario we'll just lose someone whose death tells us nothing much, but most any such players are also likely to get docced.


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## M&F (Mar 23, 2019)

M&F said:


> Worst case scenario we'll just lose someone whose death tells us nothing much, but most any such players are also likely to get docced.


(although, afterthought, if one such player also happens to be the doc we are very screwed)


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## Eifie (Mar 23, 2019)

half conscious phone post: abstaining today is the mechanically correct move for sure, we're probably not going to get a useful flip in the night but there is a small chance of a doc save which would be a little bit helpful. having to wait an extra five days to find out whatever flip we would get if we lynch today is very not appealing so idk if worth for the strictly optimal mechanical move


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## Keldeo (Mar 23, 2019)

Current vote list:

*RedneckPhoenix (2):* Eifie (#121), I liek Squirtles (#136)
*I liek Squirtles (2):* RedneckPhoenix (#144), Butterfree (#146)
*Not voting:* Flora, M&F

Deadline is in around 13 hours. If the vote remains tied at that time, phase will be extended.

Please correct me if I've made an error or missed a vote somewhere!


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## Eifie (Mar 23, 2019)

Well, to be quite frank, my interest in this game has pretty much died because none of the main suspects are even posting. Inactivity ruins games you guys :( I prefer lynching RNP over ILS because I kind of think RNP/Flora is a possible world and I still don't really think MF/ILS is. But meh. Someone just break the tie.


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## Butterfree (Mar 23, 2019)

Eifie said:


> Well, to be quite frank, my interest in this game has pretty much died because none of the main suspects are even posting. Inactivity ruins games you guys :( I prefer lynching RNP over ILS because I kind of think RNP/Flora is a possible world and I still don't really think MF/ILS is. But meh. Someone just break the tie.


What about Flora/ILS? If Flora _is_ scum, I'm not sure there's much to indicate who they'd be paired with.

What are your thoughts on Flora having clearly not realized there were no night actions N0 prior to your post about derpclearing them, as I explained in #148, and my reasoning about the feasibility of MF/ILS in #146? At least to me, the possibility of Flora faking thinking there were night actions on N0 is clearly manifestly less likely than the possibility of MF offhandedly saying we were _largely_ done poking inactives while paired with still-inactive ILS. I don't like that you're here repeating your stance on these things while ignoring my points about them without comment. I feel like you're not quite engaging with me, which is frustrating; even if people aren't posting, please work with the people who are if you are town.


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## M&F (Mar 23, 2019)

Oh well. I think you all know how much I hate to *Abstain* in general, but even if I have a decent amount of confidence in my scumreads, having the game end on D2 would be pretty disappointing.

Still no time like the present to scumhunt, though, so let that not be the end of the discussion.


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## I liek Squirtles (Mar 23, 2019)

On mobile, so pardon any typos.

At first, I voted M&F simply to get contribute something to the thread (I had been trav. Then, while rereading it, RNP came off as much scummier than M&F had. Those suspicions of mine were confirmed today with the sudden flip to vote for me.


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## Eifie (Mar 23, 2019)

Butterfree said:


> What about Flora/ILS? If Flora _is_ scum, I'm not sure there's much to indicate who they'd be paired with.
> 
> What are your thoughts on Flora having clearly not realized there were no night actions N0 prior to your post about derpclearing them, as I explained in #148, and my reasoning about the feasibility of MF/ILS in #146? At least to me, the possibility of Flora faking thinking there were night actions on N0 is clearly manifestly less likely than the possibility of MF offhandedly saying we were _largely_ done poking inactives while paired with still-inactive ILS. I don't like that you're here repeating your stance on these things while ignoring my points about them without comment. I feel like you're not quite engaging with me, which is frustrating; even if people aren't posting, please work with the people who are if you are town.


Yeah. Flora could be teamed with basically anyone.

I can't figure out what Flora was trying to say in #128 and how there being no n0 actions relates. If they actually meant n0 there, then I am very confused because it would make perfect sense for DarkAura to be voting RNP on d1 if she had investigated RNP as guilty n0, and Flora didn't remember who else DarkAura had voted so there doesn't seem to be any reason for them not to think that makes sense. It seems like they meant that DarkAura wouldn't have checked RNP n1 because the best move is to check someone you're really unsure about.

I guess looking at it again, maybe your interpretation makes more sense because there is zero value in speculating on who DarkAura investigated n1. I don't think that rules out Flora/ILS and Flora/RNP because I can definitely imagine a lack of communication happening there.

I just... don't agree with your assessment of #29. I think wolves tend to be hyper-aware of their partners existing and what their partners have done to possibly make themselves look bad, so I cannot imagine MF forgetting about ILS if they were partners, regardless of whether the remark was off-hand or not. I also do not consider that post at all emotionally-charged. It just seems like a typical transitioning-out-of-RVS post to me.

I already outlined several of my issues with RNP's posts (none of which he has responded to) and think he's just been too scummy to ignore. I think your issue if that you can't find a partner for him? I don't think RNP/Flora communicating badly to result in the n0 thing is all that unlikely.


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## Eifie (Mar 23, 2019)

I liek Squirtles said:


> On mobile, so pardon any typos.
> 
> At first, I voted M&F simply to get contribute something to the thread (I had been trav. Then, while rereading it, RNP came off as much scummier than M&F had. Those suspicions of mine were confirmed today with the sudden flip to vote for me.


What do you think about Flora right now?


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## Flora (Mar 23, 2019)

Hm. HM. I think...I might also go for *ILS?* it’s a really hard pick b/w him and RNP but...I honestly can’t really see anyone teamed with RNP, at least not atm


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## Butterfree (Mar 23, 2019)

Eifie said:


> I can't figure out what Flora was trying to say in #128 and how there being no n0 actions relates. If they actually meant n0 there, then I am very confused because it would make perfect sense for DarkAura to be voting RNP on d1 if she had investigated RNP as guilty n0, and Flora didn't remember who else DarkAura had voted so there doesn't seem to be any reason for them not to think that makes sense. It seems like they meant that DarkAura wouldn't have checked RNP n1 because the best move is to check someone you're really unsure about.


As far as I can tell, Flora's logic there was: DarkAura voted for RNP on D1, _but also for other people_. If DarkAura knew that RNP was town - well, why would she vote for him at any stage? Conversely, if she knew he was mafia - why would she have voted for other people first?


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## Eifie (Mar 23, 2019)

Flora said:


> Hm. HM. I think...I might also go for *ILS?* it’s a really hard pick b/w him and RNP but...I honestly can’t really see anyone teamed with RNP, at least not atm


alarm bells sounding at this


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## Eifie (Mar 23, 2019)

Flora said:


> Hm. HM. I think...I might also go for *ILS?* it’s a really hard pick b/w him and RNP but...I honestly can’t really see anyone teamed with RNP, at least not atm


Can you go into more detail for me about each person and why you think they're not teamed with RNP?


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## Butterfree (Mar 23, 2019)

Like, I guess it doesn't 100% _rule out_ Flora being a goon in a very poorly communicating mafia. But literally _no_ communication since the start of the game? Surely if Flora thought there were supposed to be night actions on N0 they'd have made _some_ sort of attempt to decide on what that night action should be? It can't be that Flora missed the beginning of the game entirely, because D1 didn't start until everyone'd confirmed they received their role PM, and if you receive a role PM saying you're mafia, surely you don't just shrug and make no attempt to communicate and then still not notice anything off when you _do_ return to the game? Like, if you think D1 started without any discussion of your nightkill happening, surely you'd be confused and ask your partner if they submitted one, or Keldeo if they didn't answer? I just. Have a really hard time seeing how Flora could possibly manage to genuinely remain unaware of no N0 actions well into D1 if they were mafia. _Maybe_ they faked their confusion, but it really didn't read that way, especially when they didn't get why we were confused until several posts later.


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## M&F (Mar 23, 2019)

nopenopenope no quickhammering *RedneckPhoenix*


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## Flora (Mar 23, 2019)

Butterfree said:


> As far as I can tell, Flora's logic there was: DarkAura voted for RNP on D1, _but also for other people_. If DarkAura knew that RNP was town - well, why would she vote for him at any stage? Conversely, if she knew he was mafia - why would she have voted for other people first?


Yep, that’s it! The entire point became moot as soon as I remembered that we didn’t have actions n1, so. RIP me I guess.

Apologies in general for the rather scattered commentary, my brain’s been fairly uncooperative this week and forum mafia is hell on mobile.


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## Eifie (Mar 23, 2019)

Butterfree said:


> Like, I guess it doesn't 100% _rule out_ Flora being a goon in a very poorly communicating mafia. But literally _no_ communication since the start of the game? Surely if Flora thought there were supposed to be night actions on N0 they'd have made _some_ sort of attempt to decide on what that night action should be? It can't be that Flora missed the beginning of the game entirely, because D1 didn't start until everyone'd confirmed they received their role PM, and if you receive a role PM saying you're mafia, surely you don't just shrug and make no attempt to communicate and then still not notice anything off when you _do_ return to the game? Like, if you think D1 started without any discussion of your nightkill happening, surely you'd be confused and ask your partner if they submitted one, or Keldeo if they didn't answer? I just. Have a really hard time seeing how Flora could possibly manage to genuinely remain unaware of no N0 actions well into D1 if they were mafia. _Maybe_ they faked their confusion, but it really didn't read that way, especially when they didn't get why we were confused until several posts later.


It's bizarre to me too but if I go with every conclusion I made in #132 along with the RNP vote by ILS on d1 then that leaves, well, literally no mafia. So I was wrong about something and need to decide which thing I am most likely to be wrong about. In my view the weakest points I've considered are the Flora derpclear and the RNP vote by ILS. That opens up the possibilities of RNP/Flora and RNP/ILS. (I am possibly confbiasing because I really think RNP is scum.)

One reason why I think the Flora derpclear is one of the weakest points is that I've been mafia with Flora before (several years ago, and I no longer have the PMs so my memory is really fuzzy), and they basically did not talk to the rest of us until like d2.


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## Flora (Mar 23, 2019)

Eifie said:


> Can you go into more detail for me about each person and why you think they're not teamed with RNP?


Honestly? It’s more about RNP’s overall behavior and less about the others, if that makes sense? The over-the-top defensiveness makes a bit more sense for someone who’s town rather than a maf member. (Plus the commentary about M&F’s we-are-done-poking-inactives before ILS posted kinda helped in that regard.)


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## Eifie (Mar 23, 2019)

Flora said:


> Honestly? It’s more about RNP’s overall behavior and less about the others, if that makes sense? The over-the-top defensiveness makes a bit more sense for someone who’s town rather than a maf member. (Plus the commentary about M&F’s we-are-done-poking-inactives before ILS posted kinda helped in that regard.)


The part I'm asking about is that you said "I honestly can’t really see anyone teamed with RNP, at least not atm". Could you expand on that?


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## Butterfree (Mar 23, 2019)

Eifie said:


> I just... don't agree with your assessment of #29. I think wolves tend to be hyper-aware of their partners existing and what their partners have done to possibly make themselves look bad, so I cannot imagine MF forgetting about ILS if they were partners, regardless of whether the remark was off-hand or not. I also do not consider that post at all emotionally-charged. It just seems like a typical transitioning-out-of-RVS post to me.


Thing is, I don't think that post necessarily indicates MF forgot about ILS at all. Again, it says _now that we're largely done with poking inactives_, not _now that there are no more inactives_. #42 sort of plays it as if it were the latter, but it wasn't really. Do you see what I mean?

What do you think about what I'm seeing as synergy between the two of them?


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## Butterfree (Mar 23, 2019)

Flora said:


> Honestly? It’s more about RNP’s overall behavior and less about the others, if that makes sense? The over-the-top defensiveness makes a bit more sense for someone who’s town rather than a maf member. (Plus the commentary about M&F’s we-are-done-poking-inactives before ILS posted kinda helped in that regard.)


Why the weird flip-flop? You specifically argued earlier that you couldn't see anyone being paired with RNP.


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## I liek Squirtles (Mar 23, 2019)

Eifie said:


> What do you think about Flora right now?


At first, I really didn't think much about them. Then, they posted their vote for me and that really made me much, much more suspicious of them. It's very similar to RNP's unprompted vote against me.

I'm a bit confused regarding their reasoning regarding voting for me. Simply because it's hard to figure out who is teamed with RNP at the moment doesn't mean he's not mafia. All in all, I'm a bit lost as to why it's important to figure out who RNP was teamed with if he's coming off so scummy. 

I'm frankly alarmed no one else hasn't taken Eifie's points against FNP more seriously, given that he's kind of just shooting at random and seeing what sticks. 

And finally, this is a bit tenuous, but it could help support the theory of a Flora/RNP, but in #138 RNP kind of distances away from Flora by mentioning he is vaguely suspicious of them. The sudden bandwagon for me is also an indicator of a possible team-up.


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## Eifie (Mar 23, 2019)

Butterfree said:


> Thing is, I don't think that post necessarily indicates MF forgot about ILS at all. Again, it says _now that we're largely done with poking inactives_, not _now that there are no more inactives_. #42 sort of plays it as if it were the latter, but it wasn't really. Do you see what I mean?
> 
> What do you think about what I'm seeing as synergy between the two of them?


... Fuck. You might have a point. Let me think about this for a bit.


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## Eifie (Mar 23, 2019)

Eifie said:


> ILS and DarkAura have not yet acknowledged receiving their daily cat fact. Booo.
> 
> *Vote: DarkAura*
> 
> Come play!


Rereading the thread, found this post I made where I called out the two 0-posters. This was #20.

MF posts in #29 that we're "largely" done poking inactives. The first time I read this I was like "uh, ILS tho? guess she forgot?" and that impression has stuck with me ever since. In hindsight I don't know what the "largely" part meant to me.

RNP mentions ILS again in #39.

MF replies in #42 implying that she'd forgotten about ILS. Given that she said "largely" before, does this make sense? Possibly not?

It _does_ seem very possible that this was meant to make us think not w/w after all, and I fell for it...

[x-files theme plays]


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## Butterfree (Mar 23, 2019)

Eifie said:
			
		

> One reason why I think the Flora derpclear is one of the weakest points is that I've been mafia with Flora before (several years ago, and I no longer have the PMs so my memory is really fuzzy), and they basically did not talk to the rest of us until like d2.


Huh. Okay, given this I get better why you're wary of clearing Flora entirely.

That being said, I'm assuming the rest of you were, in fact, communicating and submitting actions, and that Flora got those PMs too? Which makes more sense to me - Flora might read the PMs, not feel like they've got anything to contribute, and just let you go with whatever you decide - or maybe even disappear for the night and have to catch up on the PMs later. But Flora'd presumably still be _aware_ of the night actions that you took by the time they returned to post in the thread. So I don't think it's quite the same thing.

I do admit Flora's acting kind of weird and shifty right now, though, and RNP absolutely has been acting super scummy. Maybe it could be them? I just have a really hard time getting over the Flora thing, and every other combination with RNP doesn't quite seem to make sense to me given previous interactions. Meanwhile MF and ILS have been really in sync, and continue to be so today.


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## Eifie (Mar 23, 2019)

MF votes me in #29. I vote her back in #45. Votes are 2-1 MF-me at this point because DarkAura voted MF earlier.

Butterfree posts in #46 saying she's leaning towards me, but doesn't vote yet.

RNP votes MF in #51. It's now 3-1. ILS votes MF in #55, making it 4-1. It is possible that ILS could have thought he needed to bus here because the thread was largely (lol) against MF.

MF switches to RNP in #57 — _before_ Butterfree gets around to voting me in #62 and before DarkAura unvotes her in #65.

I vote myself in #76 to force a tie. The votes are 2-2-1 MF-me-RNP.

ILS switches to RNP in #80, making it 1-2-2 MF-me-RNP.

I can see the possibility for sure.


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## Eifie (Mar 23, 2019)

Butterfree said:


> Huh. Okay, given this I get better why you're wary of clearing Flora entirely.
> 
> That being said, I'm assuming the rest of you were, in fact, communicating and submitting actions, and that Flora got those PMs too? Which makes more sense to me - Flora might read the PMs, not feel like they've got anything to contribute, and just let you go with whatever you decide - or maybe even disappear for the night and have to catch up on the PMs later. But Flora'd presumably still be _aware_ of the night actions that you took by the time they returned to post in the thread. So I don't think it's quite the same thing.
> 
> I do admit Flora's acting kind of weird and shifty right now, though, and RNP absolutely has been acting super scummy. Maybe it could be them? I just have a really hard time getting over the Flora thing, and every other combination with RNP doesn't quite seem to make sense to me given previous interactions. Meanwhile MF and ILS have been really in sync, and continue to be so today.


Yes. I'm pretty sure I asked Flora for their opinion in the early PMs (but I can't remember for sure), though. But you're right, it's not the same thing. So I don't know what to think right now...


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## Eifie (Mar 23, 2019)

RedneckPhoenix said:


> It's- what? You just pointed out the reason that would be stupid for me to do. The mafia, expecting me to be a bad player (because I sort of am) would kill my main accuser and a very proactive player, to kill two birds with one scone, making me suspicious and taking the heat off themselves.
> 
> I don't like how you're voting right off the bat before discussion can even start. You're falling right into the mafia's trap like that.





Eifie said:


> I don't want to read a _huge_ amount into the nightkill because it's just a crapshoot what level of WIFOM the mafia were operating on, but it did make me look at your exchange with DarkAura again.
> 
> Me voting doesn't mean that this is my final decision for the day and I just plan to do nothing for the rest of it. It's just where I would like to put pressure right now.
> 
> What pings me a lot about your response here is that you said you don't like something I'm doing, in a way that you would do if you were going to express suspicion of me (which would be quite reasonable here)... but then you say I'm "falling right into the mafia's trap", i.e., apparently I'm not one of them in your mind. Kind of seems like TMI? Someone else chime in on this, please.


Butterfree, what do you think of this?

We're (basically) in MyLo right now. If RNP is town, he's the easiest mislynch for the mafia to push based on d1 events and he should know this. I go gunning for RNP right out of the gate. Does it make sense for town!RNP to not even consider the possibility that I could be scum here?


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## M&F (Mar 23, 2019)

Well, if the two of you have two scumteams that you heavily suspect, might I convince you all to get on the abstain train, albeit maybe after we get a time extension so as to avoid an accidental quickhammer?

There's only 2 possible deaths that wouldn't be any help narrowing things down -- and the doctor would be covering at least one of them (even if the doctor happens to be the other), which puts the mafia in a pretty awkward position: out themselves for a safe kill, or take 50-50 that they'll get doc blocked.


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## M&F (Mar 23, 2019)

Eifie said:


> Butterfree, what do you think of this?
> 
> We're (basically) in MyLo right now. If RNP is town, he's the easiest mislynch for the mafia to push based on d1 events and he should know this. I go gunning for RNP right out of the gate. Does it make sense for town!RNP to not even consider the possibility that I could be scum here?


As hardcore scummy as RedneckPhoenix has been so far, it probably actually does; we did end the last day's discussion on a note that most players would take as making it extremely unlikely that you're scum. (I wouldn't go that far, fwiw, I'd just consider it regular unlikely.)


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## M&F (Mar 23, 2019)

(Although what jumps out at me slightly more in that post is that he's drawing a lot of hypotheticals about what the mafia is doing without putting anything forth about who they could be; not sure if that's alignment indicative per se, in any case, but it's a thing.)


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## Butterfree (Mar 23, 2019)

Eifie said:


> Butterfree, what do you think of this?
> 
> We're (basically) in MyLo right now. If RNP is town, he's the easiest mislynch for the mafia to push based on d1 events and he should know this. I go gunning for RNP right out of the gate. Does it make sense for town!RNP to not even consider the possibility that I could be scum here?


Hmm. That is an interesting point.

Looking back at RNP's posts again, though, he does appear to have consistently townread you throughout the game, even repeatedly voting to follow your lead, so it doesn't seem all that impossible that his kneejerk reaction to "my top townread thinks I'm scum" is "you're falling into their trap", not "you're the scum".


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## Eifie (Mar 23, 2019)

Keldeo, can I have a votecount?


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## Keldeo (Mar 23, 2019)

Eifie said:


> Keldeo, can I have a votecount?


*I liek Squirtles (3):* RedneckPhoenix (#144), Butterfree (#146), Flora (#160)
*RedneckPhoenix (3):* Eifie (#121), I liek Squirtles (#136), M&F (#165)

Deadline in 1 hour, 10 minutes.


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## Eifie (Mar 23, 2019)

M&F said:


> Well, if the two of you have two scumteams that you heavily suspect, might I convince you all to get on the abstain train, albeit maybe after we get a time extension so as to avoid an accidental quickhammer?
> 
> There's only 2 possible deaths that wouldn't be any help narrowing things down -- and the doctor would be covering at least one of them (even if the doctor happens to be the other), which puts the mafia in a pretty awkward position: out themselves for a safe kill, or take 50-50 that they'll get doc blocked.


I don't think abstaining is really that productive. It's technically the mechanically correct move but I don't expect the mafia to oblige us by narrowing down the suspect pool, so it'd almost certainly just be dragging things on unnecessarily. And the risk of losing thread momentum by dragging things out is a real thing too; I've seen it almost happen before.

Who do you think is the most likely scum team atm?


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## Eifie (Mar 23, 2019)

By the way, in case people aren't already thinking it: I don't think Flora/ILS is a possibility anymore. Flora had a chance to very believably vote RNP here and they didn't.


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## Butterfree (Mar 23, 2019)

M&F said:


> Well, if the two of you have two scumteams that you heavily suspect, might I convince you all to get on the abstain train, albeit maybe after we get a time extension so as to avoid an accidental quickhammer?


I really do think it's you and ILS over RNP and Flora, though. I can't rule out the latter, but Flora's ignorance is _super_ weird to me if they're scum.

I suppose we _could_ go for the abstain today, but I can't see it helping much. Surely the mafia _isn't_ going to out themselves and goes for me/Eifie instead; then either we lose a townie and gain no real information, or the doc gets it and we... still don't really get any information, and are left in exactly the same situation tomorrow. At some point we have to actually try to lynch the mafia.


----------



## M&F (Mar 23, 2019)

Eifie said:


> I don't think abstaining is really that productive. It's technically the mechanically correct move but I don't expect the mafia to oblige us by narrowing down the suspect pool, so it'd almost certainly just be dragging things on unnecessarily. And the risk of losing thread momentum by dragging things out is a real thing too; I've seen it almost happen before.
> 
> Who do you think is the most likely scum team atm?


It's about 50-50 that we get an alive confirmed innocent out of it, for one. And dragging things out is one thing, but I'm sure the game ending on D2 is the opposite one.

RedneckPhoenix and ILS strike me as the scummiest players, but it's somewhat unlikely that the two of them are a team. Flora is a perfectly plausible scumteammate for either of them. I'm also gently toying with the idea that there might be an RNP/Butterfree team on account of Butterfree's strong reluctance to push against him despite acknowledging that he's been acting scummy, but it doesn't seem particularly likely, least of all before I've probed further.

Naturally, I don't consider the MF/ILS scumteam very likely at all, but discussing that point is largely a waste of my time.


----------



## M&F (Mar 23, 2019)

Eifie said:


> By the way, in case people aren't already thinking it: I don't think Flora/ILS is a possibility anymore. Flora had a chance to very believably vote RNP here and they didn't.


oh yes, I thought it, then entirely forgot about thinking it when rummaging through possibilities, gj me


----------



## M&F (Mar 23, 2019)

Oh, I also almost forgot: one advantage if we do abstain is that, if 50-50 lands on our favor, we can clear both the player who gets healed and the one who claims the heal.

Unless, of course, multiple players claim the heal, in which case, this game would suddenly get a lot more interesting.


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## Eifie (Mar 23, 2019)

I feel like MF has been skirting around the edges of the discussion today rather than actively trying to solve. Like, she hasn't been actively going after her scumreads. I think her suggestion we abstain at this point is... really uncharacteristic of her, especially given her comment about it in post #137, though I'm not sure what a scum motivation behind that would be... when she first suggested it, the votes were 2-2 RNP-ILS.

I think I might be a little tunneled on RNP (I tunnel a _lot_) and trying to force Flora to fit into that team. Hmmm.


----------



## M&F (Mar 23, 2019)

Eifie said:


> I feel like MF has been skirting around the edges of the discussion today rather than actively trying to solve. Like, she hasn't been actively going after her scumreads. I think her suggestion we abstain at this point is... really uncharacteristic of her, especially given her comment about it in post #137, though I'm not sure what a scum motivation behind that would be... when she first suggested it, the votes were 2-2 RNP-ILS.
> 
> I think I might be a little tunneled on RNP (I tunnel a _lot_) and trying to force Flora to fit into that team. Hmmm.


If an unhelpfully non-alignment-indicative explanation is of any service, I've been _busy_.


----------



## Butterfree (Mar 23, 2019)

Eifie said:


> I feel like MF has been skirting around the edges of the discussion today rather than actively trying to solve. Like, she hasn't been actively going after her scumreads. I think her suggestion we abstain at this point is... really uncharacteristic of her, especially given her comment about it in post #137, though I'm not sure what a scum motivation behind that would be... when she first suggested it, the votes were 2-2 RNP-ILS.


Yeah, I agree. Today has not been making me feel better about MF at alll.


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## Eifie (Mar 23, 2019)

M&F said:


> If an unhelpfully non-alignment-indicative explanation is of any service, I've been _busy_.


I'm referring to the content of your posts. Like, I was pretty much clueless on how you're viewing the game until you answered my question about your most likely scumteam. Considering we're in MyLo, that seems a bit of a red flag.


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## Eifie (Mar 23, 2019)

Let's try this.

*Vote: I liek Squirtles*


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## M&F (Mar 23, 2019)

Eifie said:


> I'm referring to the content of your posts. Like, I was pretty much clueless on how you're viewing the game until you answered my question about your most likely scumteam. Considering we're in MyLo, that seems a bit of a red flag.


It'd be why my posts normally don't have more content up until this point when I'm hawkwatching for someone else trying to quickhammer, at the very least.


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## M&F (Mar 23, 2019)

oh okay grand you're just doing it anyway


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## Butterfree (Mar 23, 2019)

(For the record, what I figured when MF initially voted abstain was that she didn't want to seem too eager to save ILS, and that suggesting abstaining was a nice inconspicuous way to avoid his lynch without seeming too desperate. Then she suddenly switched to RNP to tie it again when Flora voted ILS, then started pushing for abstaining again just when you'd started to see my point re MF/ILS.)


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## M&F (Mar 23, 2019)

Butterfree said:


> (For the record, what I figured when MF initially voted abstain was that she didn't want to seem too eager to save ILS, and that suggesting abstaining was a nice inconspicuous way to avoid his lynch without seeming too desperate. Then she suddenly switched to RNP to tie it again when Flora voted ILS, then started pushing for abstaining again just when you'd started to see my point re MF/ILS.)


so are we mentioning that, in this scenario, attacking redneckphoenix was going to directly win me the game as opposed to dragging it out or


----------



## Keldeo (Mar 23, 2019)

Votes requested in private.

*I liek Squirtles (4):* RedneckPhoenix (#144), Butterfree (#146), Flora (#160), Eifie (#195) 
*RedneckPhoenix (2):* I liek Squirtles (#136), M&F (#165)

Deadline in 25 minutes.


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## Eifie (Mar 23, 2019)

MF, what do you think of the whole Flora not knowing about n0 actions thing?


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## M&F (Mar 23, 2019)

Oh well, D2 MyLo sucks. I sincerely hope ILS really is scum, but if he isn't, I'm going to be over there cackling and ignoring whoever blames me.


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## M&F (Mar 23, 2019)

Eifie said:


> MF, what do you think of the whole Flora not knowing about n0 actions thing?


Not alignment indicative, as I've previously mentioned. It does reduce the odds that she's partnered up with a more engaged player, but both the likeliest scum players aren't that, so.


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## M&F (Mar 23, 2019)

M&F said:


> Not alignment indicative, as I've previously mentioned. It does reduce the odds that they're partnered up with a more engaged player, but both the likeliest scum players aren't that, so.


ugh, my bad


----------



## Butterfree (Mar 23, 2019)

M&F said:


> so are we mentioning that, in this scenario, attacking redneckphoenix was going to directly win me the game as opposed to dragging it out or


Seeing as there was plenty of time left in the day and I was presently in the process of arguing to Eifie that you and ILS were scum together, and Flora also had yet to vote, I think you could afford a little bit of distancing at that point.


----------



## Eifie (Mar 23, 2019)

M&F said:


> Not alignment indicative, as I've previously mentioned. It does reduce the odds that they're partnered up with a more engaged player, but both the likeliest scum players aren't that, so.


Butterfree's #164 doesn't change your mind at all? It kind of swayed me.


----------



## Eifie (Mar 23, 2019)

Hey, Butterfree, I just noticed something. The role PMs are all in post #2. The mafia role PM says "Every night starting Night 1, you or your partner can target another player in order to kill them."

So could it make sense for mafia Flora to communicate with their partner and still not realize that the other roles don't have n0 actions?


----------



## M&F (Mar 23, 2019)

Eifie said:


> Butterfree's #164 doesn't change your mind at all? It kind of swayed me.


It's a good point, but hardly an absolute. We still have yet to see in full perspective what effect the PM verifs had in the game, as this is the first time any such thing has been tried -- but as a long-time GM, I can affirm that player inactivity and awkward scum chats know very little bounds.


----------



## Eifie (Mar 23, 2019)

Eifie said:


> Hey, Butterfree, I just noticed something. The role PMs are all in post #2. The mafia role PM says "Every night starting Night 1, you or your partner can target another player in order to kill them."
> 
> So could it make sense for mafia Flora to communicate with their partner and still not realize that the other roles don't have n0 actions?


Maybe not, they seem to regularly mix up n0 and n1.


----------



## Butterfree (Mar 23, 2019)

Eifie said:


> Hey, Butterfree, I just noticed something. The role PMs are all in post #2. The mafia role PM says "Every night starting Night 1, you or your partner can target another player in order to kill them."
> 
> So could it make sense for mafia Flora to communicate with their partner and still not realize that the other roles don't have n0 actions?


Oh, huh, I hadn't checked the PMs since the start of the game. Hmmm.

Mayyybe? Flora also seems to confuse N0 and N1 a lot, which kind of makes me less inclined to think that, and did seem confused about several _other_ things that one would expect they'd have noticed if they were communicating. But honestly at this point I'm just pretty firmly convinced it's MF/ILS.


----------



## Eifie (Mar 23, 2019)

Mmmmm. Don't think I'm changing my vote.

glgl my dudes


----------



## I liek Squirtles (Mar 23, 2019)

Whoa holy shit!!!! This sudden flip on me from Bfree gives me huge mafia vibes.

I'm all but dead, so I guess I'll reveal that I'm the doc. I healed DA so I didn't claim earlier for obvious reasons.


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## Eifie (Mar 23, 2019)

...

*Vote: RedNeckPhoenix*


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## Keldeo (Mar 23, 2019)

*Deadline.*

Please hold off on posting while I confirm votes.


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## Keldeo (Mar 23, 2019)

*I liek Squirtles (3):* RedneckPhoenix (#144), Butterfree (#146), Flora (#160)
*RedneckPhoenix (3):* I liek Squirtles (#136), M&F (#165), Eifie (#213) 

With a tie, the deadline is extended. Day 2 ends in 24 hours. (48 hours of deadline extension time left)


----------



## Eifie (Mar 23, 2019)

k, we _really_ could've used that claim earlier, bro.

Anyone going to counterclaim?


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## M&F (Mar 23, 2019)

That was close. Now then, I think that should mean all aboard the RedneckPhoenix train, at least provided that nobody goes on to counterclaim.

We can also get started on who RedneckPhoenix's scumbuddy is. My Butterfree theory is actually getting a little bit sharper as I've been rereading through the thread between refreshes; will elaborate (or, if something comes up that seriously disproves it, punch myself) in a jiffy, also inb4 "hurr MF accuses everyone who accuses her that's so scumraven".


----------



## Eifie (Mar 23, 2019)

M&F said:


> That was close. Now then, I think that should mean all aboard the RedneckPhoenix train, at least provided that nobody goes on to counterclaim.
> 
> We can also get started on who RedneckPhoenix's scumbuddy is. My Butterfree theory is actually getting a little bit sharper as I've been rereading through the thread between refreshes; will elaborate (or, if something comes up that seriously disproves it, punch myself) in a jiffy, also inb4 "hurr MF accuses everyone who accuses her that's so scumraven".


I think it's probably just Flora (their not voting RNP today looks really bad), but by all means hit me with your Butterfree/RNP thoughts.


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## Butterfree (Mar 23, 2019)

Whattttt.

No, _I'm_ the doctor. I healed Eifie last night. ILS's sudden near-deadline claim is incredibly suspect and reeks of being hastily arranged when the vote was obviously not turning around.



			
				ILS said:
			
		

> Whoa holy shit!!!! This sudden flip on me from Bfree gives me huge mafia vibes.


What "sudden flip"? I don't recall expressing any opinion on you (or giving you much thought) until I started examining the scumteam possibilities Eifie brought up at the beginning of the day. Also, that was a while ago, and you've posted several times since? What even is this accusation.


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## Eifie (Mar 23, 2019)

... Great. I've thought Butterfree was the doctor for a while now. Back onto ILS I go, I guess?

*Vote: I liek Squirtles*

Not final though, still waiting for MF's thing.


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## Butterfree (Mar 23, 2019)

Obviously, my vote is staying firmly where it is.


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## M&F (Mar 23, 2019)

Eifie said:


> I think it's probably just Flora (their not voting RNP today looks really bad), but by all means hit me with your Butterfree/RNP thoughts.


Yeah, once RedneckPhoenix flips, I expect that that'll leave a lot of egg on both their and Butterfree's faces. Both are plausible scumteams.

I'd like to start by pointing to a D1 post where Butterfree discusses RedneckPhoenix... as in, _there are absolutely none_. You'd think that one of the lynch candidates would draw more discussory attention, but the name only ever comes up in her posts when she's pointing out that I was at that point voting for him, as part of an explanation on why someone else might be scum. At that point, she's a lot more focused on pushing either myself or Eifie -- which, in this scenario, would mean she was trying to take advantage of an intra-town bash. It's worth noting that she stays on "it's either MF or Eifie" even after the two of us have long moved on from each other as primary FoS.

Come D2, she does talk about RedneckPhoenix -- first, to go "oh yeah, he sounds super scummy right now, but he does that everygame doesn't he", and every single time thereafter, in dismissive tones because she introduces the MF/ILS theory immediately after RedneckPhoenix's super suspicious ILS vote and stays tunneled on from then until now.

All in all, it gives me the sense that she really wants us to pay attention to things other than RedneckPhoenix being scummy.


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## M&F (Mar 23, 2019)

Oh, we do have a counterclaim, and while I was typing that huge post no less. Time to weigh which of the two is scummier.


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## M&F (Mar 23, 2019)

(and that primarily means pondering ILS's scumminess seeing as I just went through Butterfree's)


----------



## Eifie (Mar 23, 2019)

Think I need to take a break from the game for a bit. I'll be back tonight.


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## M&F (Mar 23, 2019)

Yeah, with this counterclaim, I don't actually trust *ILS*'s claim any farther than I can throw it. Healing DarkAura on N1 seems like crapshoot with more talkative and town-looking players abound, but it sure is a safe target to claim if you're scum and not trying put your money where your mouth is on any other given player being innocent.


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## Eifie (Mar 23, 2019)

M&F said:


> Yeah, with this counterclaim, I don't actually trust *ILS*'s claim any farther than I can throw it. Healing DarkAura on N1 seems like crapshoot with more talkative and town-looking players abound, but it sure is a safe target to claim if you're scum and not trying put your money where your mouth is on any other given player being innocent.


Who do you think his partner is?

(Actually am leaving now bye)


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## M&F (Mar 23, 2019)

Although I also have no mcfreakin idea who ILS's partner is in that scenario, hmmm. Like, it's not me, it's probably not Flora either because she could've won the game by just not pushing for him in that case, it's probably not Butterfree either because, even if it's possible for both claim and counterclaim to be false, it's vulnerable to either a third counterclaim or how suspicious it'd be if Butterfree were to not turn up dead in the night following...

Is there any chance that it's been Eifie this entire time? Because I swear to freaking god...


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## M&F (Mar 23, 2019)

it's magnificent, I am now on ninja'd level: being ninja'd to being prompted on posting about what I'm posting about instead of reading the post that is prompting me to post about what I'm posting


----------



## M&F (Mar 23, 2019)

Oh yeah, it could theorically still be RedneckPhoenix, despite their interactions largely not seeming to be, ahem, w/w. Regardless, I am very puzzled now.


----------



## I liek Squirtles (Mar 23, 2019)

First off, sorry for the sudden claim at the end of the day-- was working on a school project, lost track of time, and noticed it was ten minutes til death, so I simply had to. That said, I don't think there's really much I can say to turn the tide here. Pretty much the only thing I can say is that she was the one who pointed out in #127 about the mafia possibly picking up on DA being the cop. 

I've been suspecting Butterfree since she dismissed the initial RNP vote, which was _really weird_ to just... ignore. At any rate-- Well played, Butterfree! Your fake-townness was a successful ploy.


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## M&F (Mar 23, 2019)

So like, are you planning on explaining why we should buy whatsoever that a doctor would have wanted to target DarkAura on N1, or...?


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## M&F (Mar 23, 2019)

Oh, screw it. *RedneckPhoenix* is likely to be the scumbuddy no matter who's the doctor and who's the liar.

I doubt anyone's coming along with me, and when they don't, we're screwed either way because we're either lynching the wrong one today or lynching me at the next MyLo, and both of those are game over. I can think of positively nothing to do about that though, alas. Being at constant MyLo is just that rough of a setup.


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## M&F (Mar 23, 2019)

(if it's any help for the rest of town, though, consider that lynching RedneckPhoenix is the only scenario where the remaining scum can't safely kill the doctor and has to contend with whoever else they try to kill being healed. wouldn't that be hilarious?)


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## I liek Squirtles (Mar 23, 2019)

M&F said:


> So like, are you planning on explaining why we should buy whatsoever that a doctor would have wanted to target DarkAura on N1, or...?


On D1 I wasn't sure of either you or Eifie, so it was a tossup between Butterfree, RNP, and DA. In the exchange between DA and RNP (starting at #92), RNP began seeming more and more scummy, and DA's push for him made me think that, if RNP was indeed mafia, he'd go for DA.


----------



## Butterfree (Mar 23, 2019)

M&F said:


> I'd like to start by pointing to a D1 post where Butterfree discusses RedneckPhoenix... as in, _there are absolutely none_. You'd think that one of the lynch candidates would draw more discussory attention, but the name only ever comes up in her posts when she's pointing out that I was at that point voting for him, as part of an explanation on why someone else might be scum. At that point, she's a lot more focused on pushing either myself or Eifie -- which, in this scenario, would mean she was trying to take advantage of an intra-town bash. It's worth noting that she stays on "it's either MF or Eifie" even after the two of us have long moved on from each other as primary FoS.
> 
> Come D2, she does talk about RedneckPhoenix -- first, to go "oh yeah, he sounds super scummy right now, but he does that everygame doesn't he", and every single time thereafter, in dismissive tones because she introduces the MF/ILS theory immediately after RedneckPhoenix's super suspicious ILS vote and stays tunneled on from then until now.
> 
> All in all, it gives me the sense that she really wants us to pay attention to things other than RedneckPhoenix being scummy.


I admit it was probably a mistake not to give RNP more consideration after you voted for him on D1. The exchange between the two of you obviously grabbed a lot of attention, and both of you were pinging me a little, so I was focused on you and the assumption one of you was probably scum. The behaviour you pointed out from RNP when you voted struck me as a legitimate reason you might genuinely find him suspect and want to vote for him, but also as relatively typical RNP even if he were town, so it didn't jump out at me while I was squinting hard at you and Eifie trying to decide which of you I believed.

Obviously, I ended up voting Eifie, and then Eifie responded and brought up DarkAura and I responded to that, and all in all your case on RNP kind of got lost there for me. Then as luck would have it I simply wasn't there for the whole last chunk of the day (or rather, I managed to _start_ catching up at one point but then abruptly had to leave again before I could finish reading or post), hence why my vote stayed on Eifie even after she volunteered to be investigated. When I last posted on D1, you were still the only person voting RNP; he didn't become a serious lynch candidate until after that. (And if you think I'm lying about being away... really, _wouldn't_ I want to comment in _some_ manner or another if my mafia partner were one of the leading lynch candidates? I also believe I've mentioned having to catch up after the end of D1 before at some point.)

Today, yeah, I said RNP often comes across as scummy when he isn't so it was hard to tell for sure (something I think most people who play here often would agree on, I think). I was also still preoccupied with the maybe-mafia-guessed-DarkAura-was-the-cop theory I'd come up with, so I spent most of the post explaining that, plus probing Flora about their confusion with N0. Then Eifie presented her possible scumteam scenarios, I reread the thread with them in mind, and I was struck by how I didn't quite agree with her reasoning on you/ILS, started looking more closely at the two of you and found what I believed to be mafia synergy. And meanwhile, while RNP was by now acting increasingly suspect, the possible scumteam analysis (first presented by Eifie and not me, remember) made it harder to see how he'd fit into things. I probably would've voted for him at that point if I'd still been in the mindset of just looking for the most suspicious individual person, but with Eifie's analysis I was looking at possible teams, and even the most plausible one that I could see at that point (RNP/ILS) would have also involved ILS, so voting ILS over RNP was clearly the logical choice. From there, practically everything just made me lean more strongly towards you/ILS, and the only presented RNP scum partner that could've potentially made sense based on player interactions was Flora, who I just couldn't see being scum thanks to the confusion.

I know it all comes out as me just conveniently never voting RNP, which is unfortunate, but that's just how things ultimately worked out. I don't know what else to say.


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## Butterfree (Mar 23, 2019)

I liek Squirtles said:


> I've been suspecting Butterfree since she dismissed the initial RNP vote, which was _really weird_ to just... ignore. At any rate-- Well played, Butterfree! Your fake-townness was a successful ploy.


What initial RNP vote? The one MF made on D1? Because no one else was talking about that either until after I made my last post on D1 - all the discussion was pretty focused around MF, Eifie, me, and DarkAura. You're the one who brought up RNP again, but only after I was gone.

Any comment on the random accusation of a "sudden flip" on you when I'd been talking about you/MF as the scum team all day, while you posted several times?

Aghhhh, I'm going to have to take a bit of a break as well, at least for a few hours - I've got some stuff I need to finish that has gotten seriously derailed by this mafiaing all day. I'll answer if you have any questions.


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## Butterfree (Mar 23, 2019)

(By which I mean that if you have any questions, you can post them and I will answer them sometime later, when I'm up for mafiaing again. Maybe later tonight, maybe tomorrow.)


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## I liek Squirtles (Mar 23, 2019)

Butterfree said:


> What initial RNP vote? The one MF made on D1? Because no one else was talking about that either until after I made my last post on D1 - all the discussion was pretty focused around MF, Eifie, me, and DarkAura. You're the one who brought up RNP again, but only after I was gone.


I mean today's initial vote, which started at #121 with Eifie's vote for RNP. 



Butterfree said:


> Any comment on the random accusation of a "sudden flip" on you when I'd been talking about you/MF as the scum team all day, while you posted several times?


That was bad wording on my part; I'd seen the votes pile up throughout the day, but seeing them go 4-2 made me panic.


----------



## Eifie (Mar 23, 2019)

(still not really back yet, just some quick thoughts on my state of mind)

ILS has done nothing at all this game to make me think he's town, while Butterfree has done plenty and is in fact my only actual townread. Lurking and not claiming while we spent multiple hours today discussing whether the scum team is the pair with ILS in it or the pair without ILS in it is just. If he's actually town, he basically threw the game here. :/ Saying "I've been suspecting Butterfree since she dismissed the initial RNP vote" now that Butterfree has counterclaimed him when he gave literally no indication of this prior is not very believable, either.

Not sure whether his partner would be MF or RNP. RNP has noticeably peaced out of the thread since being accused, besides coming in for a brief second to drop a vote.


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## RedneckPhoenix (Mar 23, 2019)

school all day and had friends over all night, sorry for no response but also i kinda forgot abt the game


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## I liek Squirtles (Mar 24, 2019)

Eifie said:


> Lurking and not claiming while we spent multiple hours today discussing whether the scum team is the pair with ILS in it or the pair without ILS in it is just. If he's actually town, he basically threw the game here. :/


Yeah, this was my bad. :( It's not exactly a fantastic situation to be in when you're a doctor that's been inactive during the daytimes, the only person you've healed is the unhealable cop, and then they die. 



Eifie said:


> Saying "I've been suspecting Butterfree since she dismissed the initial RNP vote" now that Butterfree has counterclaimed him when he gave literally no indication of this prior is not very believable, either.


I didn't single out Butterfree specifically, but I do mention in #172 my worry about people not taking the accusations against RNP seriously.


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## Eifie (Mar 24, 2019)

Butterfree has been super villagery today to the point where if she's actually a wolf bamboozling me I think she just plain deserves the win.



RedneckPhoenix said:


> school all day and had friends over all night, sorry for no response but also i kinda forgot abt the game


I look forward to hearing your thoughts on ILS and Butterfree soon, then!


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## Eifie (Mar 24, 2019)

Some shower thoughts, because apparently I just do all my best thinking away from the actual game.

If ILS is mafia, the plan was something like: fakeclaim doctor at very close to last minute in hopes of sniping with last-minute vote switches. I don't think this kind of plan would come from ILS, nor RNP. It would have to be MF. So I'm back to exactly ILS/MF if ILS is scum.

Possible mafia partners for Butterfree are RNP and Flora, with RNP looking more likely.

One of the things Butterfree did today that I really liked was this post (snipped to include only the relevant part):



Butterfree said:


> I don't like that you're here repeating your stance on these things while ignoring my points about them without comment. I feel like you're not quite engaging with me, which is frustrating; even if people aren't posting, please work with the people who are if you are town.


I thought the frustration at me not fully engaging with her today was super towny. I suppose that in the Butterfree/RNP world it could instead just be because I was parking on RNP. So... if it _is_ Butterfree, she's probably with RNP.

MF's posts after the deadline extension are really confusing to me if MF is scum, but maybe that's just the point.

Okay. Flora, I am tentatively inviting you to my town bloc. Please tell me your thoughts.


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## Butterfree (Mar 24, 2019)

I liek Squirtles said:


> I mean today's initial vote, which started at #121 with Eifie's vote for RNP.


I... didn't ignore it, though? Eifie voted for RNP, on the basis of the nightkill and general scummy behaviour, though she doesn't know how to distinguish between town RNP and scum RNP. When I responded later (#127), I agreed RNP was acting pretty scummy but that yes, it's a bit hard to tell with him, while the nightkill being straight-up retaliation struck me as overly simplistic. I'm generally not one to vote right out of the gate, so I never would've voted for anyone at that stage unless there was some kind of _very_ damning evidence (like, investigation). I'm not sure what more you expected me to do to react to it there. Then by the time of my next post, we'd gotten into the weeds with the possible scumteams discussion (where no one was _ignoring_ RNP's apparent scumminess, just discussing back and forth who could feasibly be paired).



			
				I liek Squirtles said:
			
		

> That was bad wording on my part; I'd seen the votes pile up throughout the day, but seeing them go 4-2 made me panic.


This seems a completely different thing from what you actually said, though, not just bad wording? You specifically said that _I_ was suspicious for suddenly flipping on you, when I'd had my vote on you almost all day; the person who flipped their vote to make it 4-2 was Eifie. Maybe it was a typo and you meant her? But then I'm surprised you didn't clarify that rather than say it was bad wording.



RedneckPhoenix said:


> school all day and had friends over all night, sorry for no response but also i kinda forgot abt the game


Okay. Anything to say about the current situation? Have you read what's been going on yet?

Still definitely not feeling great about MF's responses - feels very "Okay, going to have to just bus hard now and hope they buy it - no, hang on, found a possible line of reasoning for just lynching RNP anyway, let's give that a shot."


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## Eifie (Mar 24, 2019)

good talk guys

lol bet you thought this was a hammer


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## Keldeo (Mar 24, 2019)

*Deadline.* Please hold while I confirm votes.


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## Keldeo (Mar 24, 2019)

*Final Day 2 Votes:*

*I liek Squirtles (4):* RedneckPhoenix (#144), Butterfree (#146), Flora (#160), Eifie (#220)
*RedneckPhoenix (2):* I liek Squirtles (#136), M&F (#233)



*I liek Squirtles was lynched. He was Pallas's Cat, Town Doctor.

The mafia team mechanically can no longer lose. Congratulations, Butterfree and RedneckPhoenix!*

--



Spoiler: Role PMs



[hide=Butterfree - House Cat, Mafia Goon]

Hello, Butterfree!

You are *House Cat, a Mafia Goon!* The house cat is one of the most popular pets in the world! House cats can have long or short coats in all sorts of colors, and come in around 60 recognized breeds, from the small Singapura and Munchkin to the big, fluffy Maine Coon. "Clowder" is a rare word for a group of cats. One example of a house cat is your own cat, Birta.

Every night starting Night 1, you or your partner can target another player in order to kill them. If multiple kill orders are received, the most recent one will be used. Note: You must kill someone each night, and if you don't submit anything the kill will be randomized among the living Town players. You can't kill a member of your own.

Your partner is RedneckPhoenix, who you can talk to at any time outside the game thread.

You win when all Town are dead or nothing can prevent this.





Spoiler: RedneckPhoenix - Cheetah, Mafia Goon





Hello, RedneckPhoenix!

You are *Cheetah, a Mafia Goon!* Native to arid habitats mostly in Africa, cheetahs are known for how fast they can sprint, going from 0 to 60 mph in three seconds to chase down prey. Cheetahs' spotted coats help them blend into the grassland while they hunt during the day. You can tell the difference between cheetahs and other spotted cat species by their "tear streaks" running from eye to mouth!

Every night starting Night 1, you or your partner can target another player in order to kill them. If multiple kill orders are received, the most recent one will be used. Note: You must kill someone each night, and if you don't submit anything the kill will be randomized among the living Town players. You can't kill a member of your own.

Your partner is Butterfree, who you can talk to at any time outside the game thread.

You win when all Town are dead or nothing can prevent this.





Spoiler: DarkAura - Jaguar, Town Cop





Hello, DarkAura! 

You are *Jaguar, the Town Unhealable Cop!* The biggest big cat of South America, jaguars have a distinctive coat pattern called rosettes, which you can tell from leopards by the jaguar rosette's central spot. Unlike many cats, jaguars are strong swimmers and have been seen diving to catch animals. Jaguars tend to listen before ambushing prey, rather than chasing them down.

Every night starting Night 1, you can target another player in order to learn whether they are Town or Mafia.

You can't be healed. In other words, if the Doctor ever targets you, their action will fail. Neither you nor the Doctor will be informed that this is the case.

You win when all Mafia are dead.





Spoiler: ILS - Pallas's Cat, Town Doctor





Hello, I liek Squirtles!

You are *Pallas's Cat, the Town Doctor!* The Pallas's cat, also known as the manul, has a thickset build and low-to-the-ground posture, which help it sneak around as it stalks prey. Its long, thick, white-tipped fur helps to keep it warm in the Central Asian steppes and grassland. Pallas's cat fur goes through two color phases; it is grayer in the winter and more striped and ochre during the summer. 

Every night starting Night 1, you can target another player to stop them from being killed.

You win when all Mafia are dead.





Spoiler: Flora - Eurasian Lynx, Townie





Hello, Flora!

You are *Eurasian Lynx, a Townie!* The Eurasian lynx is the biggest lynx species, native to Europe and Asia. Lynxes are named after their reflective eyes, while the North American species of lynx is called the bobcat for its short, "bobbed" tail. The tufts on lynxes' ears help them hear and hunt, while their big paws help them walk on snow without sinking down into it, like snowshoes!

You don't have any special abilities in this game. You win when all Mafia are dead.





Spoiler: MF - Tiger, Townie





Hello, MF!

You are *Tiger, a Townie!* The biggest cat species in the world, the tiger lives in parts of North, East, and South Asia. Each tiger's stripes are different, and the white spot on the back of a tiger's ear functions as an "eyespot." Tigers mark their territory and usually live away from each other. Many tigers are good swimmers and bathe in ponds or lakes to keep cool during the day!

You don't have any special abilities in this game. You win when all Mafia are dead.





Spoiler: Eifie - Clouded Leopard, Townie





Hello, Eifie!

You are *Clouded Leopard, a Townie!* Clouded leopards live in East and Southeast Asia and are named for their large spots. They mostly roam their dense forest habitats at night, so they are hard to track. Clouded leopards' short legs and big paws make them good climbers, and they can even turn their rear ankles around to climb down trees headfirst.

You don't have any special abilities in this game. You win when all Mafia are dead.


[/hide]



Spoiler: Actions



*Night 1*
ILS heals DarkAura (but it doesn't work.)
RedneckPhoenix and Butterfree kill DarkAura.
DarkAura investigates Eifie as Town.
→ DarkAura, the Cop, dies.

*Why can't the mafia lose?*
With ILS's death, there are 3 town and 2 mafia left. The mafia must kill a townsperson on Night 2, leaving 2 town alive and allowing them to force a No Lynch on Day 3 and kill/lynch the remaining two townspeople. In the interest of not forcing people to play out a foregone conclusion, the game is ending here.



Good game, everyone, and thank you all so much for playing! This game was well played by the mafia team and well fought by the town - it takes a village, and a mafia team, to make a game. The activity in this game was unreal, especially because we only had 7 players. Everyone tried their best, and I was really happy to see people having fun and enjoying the flavor!

Some things that I'd like to apologize for that I will fix if I ever run this setup again: I'm sorry for the somewhat uneven phase extensions that left some people unable to post on this final day. It is also probably better to have tied votes either be decided by randomization or count toward the 1-abstain limit, in the spirit of that rule, but I didn't want to change it in the middle of the game.


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## Eifie (Mar 24, 2019)

_damn_, Butterfree, that was awesome.


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## RedneckPhoenix (Mar 24, 2019)

my house now


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## Keldeo (Mar 24, 2019)

I may run another game soon with this setup or a slightly larger setup if there's interest. Also, I'm thinking about hosting a silly/bastard/experimental game sometime in April-July for the 5th anniversary of Calvinball Mafia, so stay tuned for that :D


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## Keldeo (Mar 24, 2019)

Another also, unfortunately Flora's flavor image was deleted from Wikimedia Commons, so here's a substitute:


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## RedneckPhoenix (Mar 24, 2019)

but in all seriousness butterfree sorra carried that game lol


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## Butterfree (Mar 24, 2019)

Eifie said:


> _damn_, Butterfree, that was awesome.


*bows* Thank you, thank you.

True fact: we did, in fact, deduce that DarkAura was the cop and killed her because of that, not because she'd been accusing RNP.

That mafia synergy between MF and ILS, though, I almost believed it.


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## M&F (Mar 24, 2019)

Keldeo said:


> I may run another game soon with this setup or a slightly larger setup if there's interest. Also, I'm thinking about hosting a silly/bastard/experimental game sometime in April-July for the 5th anniversary of Calvinball Mafia, so stay tuned for that :D


Oh ho, I was actually getting my own ideas there, too.

Oh, well. I just wish I'd figured Butterfree out sooner, which would have given people enough time to be as unimpressed by her counterarguments as I was. In any case, I concede that gg.

Being in a game where every single lynch makes a huge difference sure was a new experience! Makes me wonder in which directions that sort of thing can be taken, specially now that we'll generally have to expect low player counts. Hmmmm...


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## Eifie (Mar 24, 2019)

Yeah, man, I wish I hadn't chickened out of lynching RNP the first day. That was a pretty dumb move.


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## M&F (Mar 24, 2019)

I also have to ask: as nerve-wracking as it was for town trying not to kill itself on a D2 mislynch (which... is what we ultimately did rip), what was it like, having me hounding a correct mafia member for 3/4 of the game and then figuring the entire thing out on the last bend?

Like, I'm not even asking to flex, I just feel like that'd be terrifying if it was coming from a better player.


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## Eifie (Mar 24, 2019)

ok also (super sorry for spam)

I just want to say that I'm really really grateful to everyone for playing with me, non-role-madness mafia isn't really a thing we've done on tcodf before and I know a lot of you aren't used to it but you picked it up like champs. Special shout-out to DarkAura who was legitimately super awesome and impressed me a lot!

This game meant a ridiculous amount to me because I started playing mafia on MU a few months ago because I've always wanted to learn how to play vanilla mafia, and the game itself is fun but it was really stressful playing with a bunch of strangers who knew what they were doing and were all way better than me and all I really wanted to do was learn to play in a safer environment with my friends. :C I got to apply a ton of theory I've learned over the past few months in this game which was really fun. I'm so glad I got to play with everyone.

ok thanks for coming to my TED talk.


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## Flora (Mar 24, 2019)

Are you kitten me?

God. Fuckin well played, guys.


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## M&F (Mar 24, 2019)

Flora said:


> Are you kitten me?


game results overruled, flora is now the sole winner of the game


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## DarkAura (Mar 24, 2019)

asdfghjklaljd and I tried _so hard_ to specifically _not_ tip myself off as the cop too!! You darn meddling kids and your galaxy-level brain shenanigans!

This was probably the most fun I've had in a mafia game in a loooong time, and it was so much fun watching everything go down! Absolute props to the mafia team for bamboozling us all, truly a well deserved win!

Though, really wish I went more whole hog on hounding RNP day 1 instead of backing off in fear I was painting too much of a target on my back for the night kill (which lmaoo still happened anyway), especially after reading other games he was in after the day phase was over and realizing "oh shit wait he's acting different than in games where he's town, he could be scum oh my god ohhhh my god", but eh, cest la vie! Something to keep in mind for future games, ha ha!



Eifie said:


> Special shout-out to DarkAura who was legitimately super awesome and impressed me a lot!


ahhhh thank you!! I tried super hard to like, actually be a good player this time, and I'm really happy with how I played the game! Though you were a large part in kickstarting all the discussion and debates in this game, so I gotta thank you for that as well, Eifie!!

And all y'all?? Were such a wonderful team to play this game with??? I'm being super sappy rn but this game reminded how much I love mafia, thanks to all of you for making this game the best it could be!!!!

tho smh we dropped the cat puns so quick, how unfurtunate


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## DarkAura (Mar 24, 2019)

lmao flora ninja'd me with the better cat pun, rip


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## Butterfree (Mar 24, 2019)

M&F said:


> I also have to ask: as nerve-wracking as it was for town trying not to kill itself on a D2 mislynch (which... is what we ultimately did rip), what was it like, having me hounding a correct mafia member for 3/4 of the game and then figuring the entire thing out on the last bend?
> 
> Like, I'm not even asking to flex, I just feel like that'd be terrifying if it was coming from a better player.


I think I'd made a pretty persuasive case that you were mafia, honestly, and Eifie was still firmly townreading me, so I wasn't _too_ worried by the time you started making a case on me. There were also pretty genuine reasons for the things you ended up pointing to: I really was absent for RL reasons for the whole chunk of D1 where RNP came under serious scrutiny, and Eifie's scumteam analysis and me noticing the you/ILS synergy really was the reason I hadn't ended up spending more time playing up suspicion of RNP on D2. I knew when I started pushing you/ILS that obviously you weren't going to buy my reasoning, would be voting against me and probably giving me more scrutiny; I just needed Eifie and Flora to find my case for you/ILS more convincing.

The most nerve-wracking moment of the game was seeing ILS's claim and having to _quickly_ decide whether to counterclaim (inviting Eifie to go back and scrutinize my play again extra-hard, which had the potential to lose her townread on me, which'd almost definitely mean we'd lose) or play it safe, immediately bus RNP and try to coast through the rest on my town cred. For a bit after I counterclaimed I was super nervous that you/Eifie would call me out on taking like half an hour to counterclaim when I was posting minutes before the deadline and _surely_ I'd have refreshed around the deadline and seen the claim (which I did, but then I was waffling over it with RNP for a bit), but that didn't happen, so once I saw I was safe on that part I felt pretty good about the rest.


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## Butterfree (Mar 24, 2019)

Wow ninja'd by everyone

Definitely seconding that this was a really awesome game to play with you all! Mafia is a lot more fun with people you know (having recently played some games with strangers), and I had a blast here. I hope we can keep up the mafia tradition and get more games going soon!


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## I liek Squirtles (Mar 24, 2019)

This was such a fun game to play!! Sorry for blanking out a couple times there. 

Butterfree was SO good, holy crap. I thought she was town until the whole RNP business on D2. The moment I read your counterclaim I flipped out, couldn't believe the towniest player was mafia, haha!

All in all, it was great to play a game of mafia again!! :)



M&F said:


> game results overruled, flora is now the sole winner of the game


A meowlien victory, if you will-


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## RedneckPhoenix (Mar 24, 2019)

objection


this is cat mafia not kitten mafia


thus flora loses


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## DarkAura (Mar 25, 2019)

RedneckPhoenix said:


> objection
> 
> 
> this is cat mafia not kitten mafia
> ...













As you can see from the title of the game, Meowfia doesn't actually indicate adult cats exclusively. In fact, kittens are known for meowing quite loudly, at that. Meaning...












_KITTEN IS A PURRFECTLY ACCEPTABLE PUN!!_


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## RedneckPhoenix (Mar 25, 2019)

No, that's wrong!


In the intro post to the game, Keldeo specifically says _a mafia game about *cats.*_



Keldeo said:


> Welcome to *Meowfia*, a mafia game about *cats!* I'm your host, Keldeo, and I'll be talking about some cool kinds of cats in this game. I hope you're all feline good and ready to play a fun game of mafia!



Cats, as in the class of animals, not simply house cats! Many big cat species instead call their young _cubs!_



Thus, Flora's pun only makes sense for one role in the game- and not the game as a whole!


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## Flora (Mar 25, 2019)

Man I spent 90% of the game in a derp state, this is my one good contribution, let me have this.


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## Flora (Mar 25, 2019)

Actually wait, the idea that a pun has to apply to every element of the thing to be valid is a flawed one. I reject that idea. Next.


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## RedneckPhoenix (Mar 25, 2019)

kittens dont meow, they scream and mew, but never meow


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## DarkAura (Mar 25, 2019)

RedneckPhoenix said:


> No, that's wrong!
> 
> 
> In the intro post to the game, Keldeo specifically says _a mafia game about *cats.*_
> ...








_Yowch!!_






(Great, now all we need is for Edgeworth to bring out the updated pawtopsy report...)

(...)






(Or maybe _I_ should.)






You're assuming that the idea of kittens is mutually exclusive to that of house cats. But if we take a look at a little thing I like to call *the dictionary*, we'll see that's not the case.



			
				Merriam Webster said:
			
		

> kitten noun
> kit·​ten | \ ˈki-tᵊn  \
> Definition of kitten (Entry 1 of 2)
> : *a young cat*
> also : an immature or young individual of various other small mammals








My word! If I didn't know any better, I'd say that passage was ripped straight from the "inner webs"!











That's correct, Your Honor. This passage is taken straight from the dictionary definition of the word 'kitten' on Merriam Webster's site. I'd like the court to take a look at that first definition, because as we can all plainly see...






A kitten is *a young cat*.






Nice job, Nick! You've got him on the ropes now!






...Hey, is this why Mister Armando always called my sister "Kitten"?






...Maya, aren't you supposed to be in the detention center right now?






Hey, those cats _chose_ to come with me, away from their owners! I'm innocent, I tell ya!






That's called catnapping, Maya!






...Well, at least my trial isn't until after this one.

(Purrfect, Maya. Just purrfect.)


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## RedneckPhoenix (Mar 25, 2019)

(Dammit...! He's trying to spin the Webster angle! I've got to think of something... or we'll all be...)


Your Honor! May you say the word "Meow" for me?


If the judge is able to say the word, wouldn't that indicate that multiple species are able to meow? Humans, parrots, any mimicking creature! They can all meow!


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## M&F (Mar 25, 2019)

*IT'S ALL CONNECTED*


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## DarkAura (Mar 25, 2019)

If that's your point, then any one of us could say "meow". The fact that humans can say the word "meow" is a given. But that doesn't invalidate the fact that kittens also can meow, nor does it make the defendant's pun invalid.







Hold up, now! Do I still need to say "meow"?






...No, Your Honor.


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## DarkAura (Mar 25, 2019)

okay but now I'm running out of ace atturnstyle material and I don't wanna clog the thread up too much more ooopss


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## Eifie (Mar 25, 2019)

I must spread some reputation around before giving it to DarkAura again


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## sanderidge (Mar 26, 2019)

YALL THIS WAS A FANTASTIC GAME TO READ!!! THANK U FOR THE EXCELLENT ENTERTAINMENT


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