# Gender-Neutral Terms?



## kyeugh (Jan 17, 2013)

What is your pronoun for gender-neutral?  Personally, I always though, "he," was gender-neutral, but apparently not.


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## Momo(th) (Jan 17, 2013)

I always thought "they" was the universal English gender neutral term.


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## Connoiseusse Burgundy (Jan 17, 2013)

I use 'they' and 'them'.


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## Scootaloo (Jan 17, 2013)

I dunno, I'm getting used to saying Ey/eir/em
are those gender neutral? still kinda new to them but "they" sounds weird now so


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## Noctowl (Jan 17, 2013)

I use they. :)


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## Blastoise Fortooate (Jan 17, 2013)

'They' unless someone feels strongly otherwise or unless it's a formal paper; in the first case I go with whatever they want, and in the second I use the clunky old 'one'.


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## surskitty (Jan 17, 2013)

They verbally; e while typing.  Sometimes 'they' while typing as well.


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## Worst Username Ever (Jan 17, 2013)

Usually "they", unless they specify a certain pronoun.


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## 1. Luftballon (Jan 17, 2013)

I "it" p much everything and sometimes people complain and then I forget what they wanted and use "it" again.

but, well, "it" isn't even gender-neutral, really, is more neuter.

I, uh, probably need to work on that.

anecdotal: thus far I have managed to everyone which has graded my essays that "it" is a perfectly cromulent 3s pronoun for a thing with neither natural nor grammatical gender assigned (e.g. "each person ought to bring its own lunch") and at one point there was a standardised-testing essay question where the protagonist had a blank gender, probably intentionally, and I needed a reflexive so I just used "itself" and then proceeded to call it "it" through the rest of the response and didn't get any points off for that.

use of "it" for things with overt natural gender gets margin notes about "antecedent?" once in a while, so I proofread essaythings to make sure I'm don't "it" things with sufficiently overt natural gender that I'd get complained at about it. this is p much the only time I "mechanical error" marks, though.

p sure I picked up the "it" when someone decided to start marking points off for singular "they" -- really, that is bloody stupid, singular they is perfectly cromulent and has a long history -- and, uh, habits die hard but stay dead or something, idek.

it's generally been easier to appease the sort of people who complain about singular they with, can we just drop the derogatory connotations from it, than to actually get them to accept an actual neutral singular personal pronoun.

but screw that, grammatical gender is bloody stupid most of the time anyway, I'd be significantly happier if "it" shifted from neuter toward neutral, or if "they" lost its number -- I mean, I'd prefer the former, because number is actually occasionally a meaningful distinction, but.

I mean, actually producing a new useful pronoun would be great, too, but, well, "they" is vaguely acceptable and at least has _general_ acceptance, albeit incomplete.

tl;dr I "it" everything we all knew that


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## hopeandjoy (Jan 17, 2013)

"They" normally, "one" and many plurals while essay writing.

They needs more acceptance as part of formal writing because once upon a time it was.


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## Adriane (Jan 18, 2013)

'Ey' in formal writing. 'Ey' or 'they' in casual writing.


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## ultraviolet (Jan 18, 2013)

i use 'they' because it's grammatically standard in australia to do so (it's gradually replacing 'he/she' and things like that). I probably would use e/ey if more people knew about it but i prefer being brief and it is really exhausting to have to explain what e/ey is. 

but honestly how is 'he' gender-neutral i don't get it


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## Ether's Bane (Jan 18, 2013)

ultraviolet said:


> but honestly how is 'he' gender-neutral i don't get it


*shrugs*

"They".

Also:



			
				res said:
			
		

> I mean, actually producing a new useful pronoun would be great, too


I'd like to propose the term "spe".


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## Tarvos (Jan 18, 2013)

They is what I use as well.


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## Minish (Jan 18, 2013)

Lyra Heartstrings said:


> "They".


'they' has an established history in being gender-neutral!
'he' is neutral only in a 'male is default' sense so it's not even relevant here


It's funny how often people say 'there should just be a gender-neutral pronoun why don't we just create one!' when people have been doing that for a good while ... I mean, why is ey not useful? What stops the ones we have from being useful other than that they're still not good enough for you, or something? (this isn't particularly directed at anyone! just. quit complaining about english not having a true singular gender-neutral pronoun and just use one!)

that said, 'they' remains fine and it feels natural for me to use. I'm pretty sure I've never been criticised for using it even in formal writing.


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## Vipera Magnifica (Jan 18, 2013)

Minish said:


> that said, 'they' remains fine and it feels natural for me to use. I'm pretty sure I've never been criticised for using it even in formal writing.


I often use "they" in formal writing and get corrected for doing so. I've even had professors tell me to use he/she instead. :/

"They" is certainly less problematic and most people use it in everyday speech anyway. I don't see why we can't all just use it.


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## Teh Ebil Snorlax (Jan 18, 2013)

"They" over here as well. I don't really understand objecting to it just because it's also the plural.


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## shy ♡ (Jan 18, 2013)

Used to be 'they' exclusively, but since e(y) is so commonplace on tcod it's been seeping into my brain more and more.


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## 1. Luftballon (Jan 18, 2013)

Vehement Mustelid said:


> I often use "they" in formal writing and get corrected for doing so. I've even had professors tell me to use he/she instead. :/


but like. ew. binarism.


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## Goldenpelt (Jan 18, 2013)

Singular "they" is a beautiful thing. I wouldn't use something else unless specified.


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## Autumn (Jan 19, 2013)

sreservoir said:


> but like. ew. binarism.


sadly it happens often, i argued with my english teacher about he/she vs they junior year and lost :(

as for me i typically use they but i used 'eir' today in a homework assignment (and i don't give a shit what the professor/my classmates say about it) and i want to make this a habit (using e/eir/em i mean)


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## sovram (Jan 19, 2013)

idk the only problem I see with "ey" is that ... plenty of people use that as their pronouns I guess? and might have some sense of it not being really "neutral" I guess? 

I don't know if that's actually true but that's sort of the feeling I get (since I use "e") and ... I don't know ... yeah I'm not sure how I feel about that

anyway I use "they" because I don't see any reason to use anything else


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## Minish (Jan 19, 2013)

sovram said:


> idk the only problem I see with "ey" is that ... plenty of people use that as their pronouns I guess? and might have some sense of it not being really "neutral" I guess?
> 
> I don't know if that's actually true but that's sort of the feeling I get (since I use "e") and ... I don't know ... yeah I'm not sure how I feel about that
> 
> anyway I use "they" because I don't see any reason to use anything else


spivak pronouns were made to be gender-neutral; it's the other way around! (in practice, I also avoid using 'e' so generally, though)

I wish I could warm up to xie/sie/hir etc. as a personal pronoun but they're just used way more often as a neutral 'we don't know the gender' that I can't :/ maybe I wish people would stop using them that way? otherwise what's the point other than woo less ambiguous grammar. especially cis ones who don't have to worry about their own pronoun garnering ungendered associations !


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## Adriane (Jan 19, 2013)

Minish said:


> spivak pronouns were made to be gender-neutral; it's the other way around! (in practice, I also avoid using 'e' so generally, though)


I don't see why Spivak can't be used as generally as singular they!



Minish said:


> I wish I could warm up to xie/sie/hir etc. as a personal pronoun but they're just used way more often as a neutral 'we don't know the gender' that I can't :/ maybe I wish people would stop using them that way? otherwise what's the point other than woo less ambiguous grammar. especially cis ones who don't have to worry about their own pronoun garnering ungendered associations !


I am going to second you here! I haven't seen 'xie' so much, but sie and hir are like. Really difficult to discern from 'standard' binary pronouns in speech and still bear resemblance in writing...


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## Keldeo (Jan 19, 2013)

"They" pretty much whenever.


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## Minish (Jan 19, 2013)

Fynx said:


> I don't see why Spivak can't be used as generally as singular they!


Because we _have_ 'they'! Why can't other non-he/she pronouns be reserved for non-binary people who want to use them personally? That's what's more important.

I don't want the main association with my pronoun to be 'no gender data available'. My gender isn't unknown, thanks! I'd rather use something less general but I can't, because I can't deal with the negative response.


Sie and hir are fun because together ('zee' and 'heer', not _that_ close to binary pronouns??) they just sound vaguely in the middle of 'he' and 'she'. Whereas 'e' just sounds like 'he', as I have been frequently informed.


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## Shiny Grimer (Jan 19, 2013)

For the longest time I thought "hir" was pronounced "her" and I was like "what's the point?" Then I realized it's pronounced like "here" and everything made much more sense.

I use "they" for "gender unknown/unspecified/not really important." Otherwise, whatever pronoun you prefer.


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## Minish (Jan 19, 2013)

since for me 'his' and 'hirs' sound pretty much identical, I actually like to say it more like a welsh 'here'! which is something like _hyur_, I guess. it sounds prettier and less out-of-place! :o


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## Murkrow (Jan 19, 2013)

Minish said:


> since for me 'his' and 'hirs' sound pretty much identical, I actually like to say it more like a welsh 'here'! which is something like _hyur_, I guess. it sounds prettier and less out-of-place! :o


You know I was going to say, being Welsh, I was actually surprised that hir actually _isn't_ supposed to be pronounced like that.

Also being Welsh, "something like hyur" looks like it should sound like a cross between "her" and "urgh" D:


EDIT: Also I say they


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## kyeugh (Jan 19, 2013)

I'm relatively new to this whole _he_ not being an acceptable gender-neutral pronoun.  But if that's the case, I would probably switch my vote to _they_.


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## Dannichu (Jan 22, 2013)

My delighfully Welsh housemate pronounces 'here', 'year' and 'ear' in exactly the same way. (adorable: she thought the expression was 'donkey's ears' rather than 'donkey's years' because donkey's ears are long)

I still feel that 'they' is only really used if a person has stated that it's their preferred pronoun, or when referring to an unknown person. I feel uncomfortable, for example, when writing an essay, quoting someone with a non-gender-specific name and saying 'they argue that' (because it sounds like I'm talking about multiple people) or 's/he argues that'. I will try and find their website or googleimage search for pictures of them because I feel it makes me research look shoddy if I don't know, but at the same time It SHOULDN'T MATTER AT ALL.


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## Minish (Jan 26, 2013)

Relatedly, a note to all: a Pokemon species is not a 'him'. If you like to refer to a species with a singular pronoun, use 'it' like you would for animals!!

(I realise some people call any and all animals 'he'. Stop that, also.)


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## Murkrow (Jan 26, 2013)

Minish said:


> (I realise some people call any and all animals 'he'. Stop that, also.)


Really? I've only ever come across people who call all of some animals he and  all of some animals she.
Not that that's much better but I'm just surprised some people call _all_ animals by one pronoun.


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## Minish (Jan 26, 2013)

Photo Finish said:


> Really? I've only ever come across people who call all of some animals he and  all of some animals she.
> Not that that's much better but I'm just surprised some people call _all_ animals by one pronoun.


Yeah, there are definitely people like _that_ who exist as well. Probably worse.


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## goldenquagsire (Jan 26, 2013)

Minish said:


> Relatedly, a note to all: a Pokemon species is not a 'him'.








???


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## Minish (Jan 26, 2013)

Why would you say 'I like nidoking he's my favourite type of pokemon' like _even then_ it sounds really silly.

I can imagine kids doing it who see a Pokemon and think it's just like, one character! Especially if they're watching the anime! Especially since most cartoon animals tend to be implied as boys (generally because this is cyclic)! But, like, if you're not a kid, you really don't have to do this...


(maybe you're being facetious. i guess i wanted to rant a bit more ooooops)


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## Spoon (Jan 26, 2013)

Minish said:


> Why would you say 'I like nidoking he's my favourite type of pokemon' like _even then_ it sounds really silly.


How's "I like Nidoking; it's my favorite type of Pokémon," any better? Wouldn't it be "they're" instead?


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## Minish (Jan 26, 2013)

Spoon said:


> How's "I like Nidoking; it's my favorite type of Pokémon," any better? Wouldn't it be "they're" instead?


Sure!


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## shy ♡ (Jan 26, 2013)

goldenquagsire said:


> ???


Trans nidoking u_u


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## 1. Luftballon (Jan 26, 2013)

Spoon said:


> How's "I like Nidoking; it's my favorite type of Pokémon," any better? Wouldn't it be "they're" instead?


well, if the nidoking category of pokémon, sure, it, categories have no natural gender and english doesn't assign them a grammatical gender ?? if the group of pokémon nidoking, then they, them.

"I like nidoking; it's my favourite type of pokémon"; "I like nidoking, they're my favourite pokémon" ??


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## 1. Luftballon (Jan 26, 2013)

Spoon said:


> How's "I like Nidoking; it's my favorite type of Pokémon," any better? Wouldn't it be "they're" instead?


well, if the nidoking category of pokémon, sure, it, categories have no natural gender and english doesn't assign them a grammatical gender ?? if the group of pokémon nidoking, then they, them.

"I like nidoking; it's my favourite type of pokémon"; "I like nidoking, they're my favourite pokémon" ??


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## Hiikaru (Jan 27, 2013)

It doesn't matter even if there were no trans* Nidokings! You still can't say "I like Nidoking he's my favourite Pokemon" because either you mean plural, or you mean the design, and in either case what. Like, you wouldn't say "I love giraffes he's my favourite", and you also wouldn't say "wow TCoD is a great website he has so much information".

Really beyond grammar, though, it's just really creepy and disconcerting because it's always about people seeing a Pokemon that fits their stereo-types and making a decision. :( If you question people who do it they're like "what Flareon's just incredibly girly". :|

It's pushing bad stereo-types, and it's really controlling over which Pokemon people can safely like!



goldenquagsire said:


> ???


Even if you're talking about the all female species of lizard or something, you still don't say "I love these lizards she's so pretty." An _entire species of lizard or Pokemon plural_ can't get talked about with a singular pronoun because it makes no sense! Unless maybe every Nidoking is just a puppetshell for a single hivemind creature.

It's not seeing a single Nidoking and going "oh this single Nidoking is a guy" (that's a totally different thing), it's about deciding every Nidoking in the world are all the _same_ one guy. Like if someone thought every person in the world was secretly you in disguise.



Spoon said:


> How's "I like Nidoking; it's my favorite type of Pokémon," any better? Wouldn't it be "they're" instead?


I don't see a problem with saying "it" because if you say that, you could mean the design! Like people say "I like the iPhone it's cool" as singular because they like the design of the iPhone and how it works! It doesn't sound weird if you do it in that kind of situation, like how it doesn't sound weird if you call a website an "it".


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## Ether's Bane (Jan 27, 2013)

Minish said:


> 'they' has an established history in being gender-neutral!
> 'he' is neutral only in a 'male is default' sense so it's not even relevant here


I meant that I didn't know why people considered "he" gender-neutral, then answered "they" to the topic...


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## hopeandjoy (Jan 27, 2013)

I think I would go something like this:

"I like Blaziken a lot. Its design is cool."

"My very first Blaziken, Blaze, was a badass. That's why I name all my female Torchic after her."

You know, like how you talk about animals in real life. It for the species, gendered pronouns for individual animals you know.


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## Ether's Bane (Jan 27, 2013)

hopeandjoy said:


> You know, like how you talk about animals in real life. It for the species, gendered pronouns for individual animals you know.


Yeah, I agree with this.

However:



hopeandjoy said:


> "I like Blaziken a lot. It's design is cool."


*):*


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## Superbird (Jan 27, 2013)

Lyra Heartstrings said:


> *):*


Implying that you don't like 'it'? Or implying you don't like Blaziken's design?

EDIT: oh, didn't realize the other typo.


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## hopeandjoy (Jan 27, 2013)

Either the latter or my slip of grammar, since he agreed with "it" in the quote before.


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## Ether's Bane (Jan 27, 2013)

hopeandjoy said:


> Either the latter *or my slip of grammar*, since he agreed with "it" in the quote before.


Yeah.

Sorry about that, but that's one error which rather irks me.


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## Tailsy (Jan 27, 2013)

You don't know real pain until someone has used 'it's' correctly and then incorrectly _within the same sentence_.


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## Minish (Jan 27, 2013)

Surely a typo is less annoying than not actually knowing it's incorrect ...


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## ultraviolet (Jan 28, 2013)

Minish said:


> Surely a typo is less annoying than not actually knowing it's incorrect ...


no i think the point that tailsy is making is that some people literally just go 'fuck it' and guess or alternate between its and it's and hope they get it right


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## Tailsy (Jan 28, 2013)

Yes, that is what I meant!

'_If in doubt leave it out_,' I screamed as Kathy drowned


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## Tarvos (Feb 2, 2013)

My question is still what to use in a different language (other than English or Swedish). I wouldn't know what to say in Dutch, for example; strictly we have three gender pronouns (one for masculine, feminine and neuter), but using the neuter gender for a person makes it seem like they are a table or a chair (you can't use it, you only use it for inanimate objects).


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## Abwayax (Feb 2, 2013)

"They" for me. He/she seems too clunky and for some reason the myriad of neuter pronouns people come up with feel alien to me.



Hiikaru said:


> It doesn't matter even if there were no trans* Nidokings! You still can't say "I like Nidoking he's my favourite Pokemon" because either you mean plural, or you mean the design, and in either case what. Like, you wouldn't say "I love giraffes he's my favourite", and you also wouldn't say "wow TCoD is a great website he has so much information".


Pokemon names are both singular and plural (and confusingly, the default name for a member of their species as well), so the term "Nidoking" can refer to the entire species of Nidoking, multiple Nidoking, or a single Nidoking. The sentence "I like Nidoking; he's my favorite Pokemon" makes sense _only if_ the speaker is referring to a specific Nidoking (perhaps an episode of the show in which a Nidoking was prominent, or the speaker's own prized Nidoking). For example, I think if someone brings up Pikachu in the context of the anime, it's generally assumed they're referring to a specific Pikachu (even though there have been multiple Pikachu in the anime). This isn't true of any real world animal (although humorously, there was a show on Cartoon Network a while back named Sheep in the Big City which starred a sheep named Sheep).


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## kyeugh (Feb 2, 2013)

I don't use he for a thing I can see, per se. If there is a subject which I have not seen, which I am being informed of, usually I call it a he, and most things can be a he, so until I actually see a subject, it's a he. Afterward, it's an it.

I don't know, my silly brain does silly things, although I think I've stopped for the most part. My term is now they-- I don't see a problem with they other than I always considered it plural. Oh well.


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## Autumn (Feb 2, 2013)

Mohacastle said:


> I don't use he for a thing I can see, per se. If there is a subject which I have not seen, which I am being informed of, usually I call it a he, and most things can be a he, so until I actually see a subject, it's a he. Afterward, it's an it.


any reason?


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## Shiny Grimer (Feb 2, 2013)

Polymetric Sesquialtera said:


> any reason?


It's probably the same reason people would use "they" in this situation - it's how they learned the language.


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## Frostagin (Feb 2, 2013)

I've always used xie unless the person has specified something else. :/


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## Adriane (Feb 2, 2013)

Frostagin said:


> I've always used xie unless the person has specified something else. :/


Why xie, out of curiosity? It's even less standard than singular they or Spivak.


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## Minish (Feb 2, 2013)

I've seen xie/hir used lots more than e! Outside of #tcod I definitely view at as the internet favourite, and definitely the irl favourite. While Spivak was kind of its own thing, I'm pretty sure xie/hir sprung up specifically out of non-binary circles, so it's always made sense to me that it's still kind of reigning.

(Off the top of my head, I think they use it exclusively over at Shakesville, for example.)


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## Adriane (Feb 3, 2013)

Minish said:


> I'm pretty sure xie/hir sprung up specifically out of non-binary circles, so it's always made sense to me that it's still kind of reigning.


I have to say this seems really _weird_ since hir is like... his + her fused together, which just makes it seem neutral-sure-but-still-with-clearly-binary-influences? (and also can still sound very much like 'her', especially factoring in dialect and speech tendencies). And while it is by no means a comprehensive list, 'xie' is absent (albeit 'xe' and 'hir' are not) from Wiki's (presumably) common-use pronouns. 

Elverson first appeared in 1975 (which is the 'Spivak' set I still default to), but I can't seem to find a clear date on the others. It's amusing seeing how much 19th century (English) literature there is on the need for a neutral pronoun, though!


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## Minish (Feb 3, 2013)

I think xie was mostly replaced by sie/zie for some reason, I wonder if maybe because an x is too ~special snowflake~y or something. But, hm!

I found hir pretty weird too for the longest time, and probably won't ever use it, but its closeness to binary pronouns is maybe meant to be part of its charm, in a kind of third gender impression? I definitely think it's the most popular one, and it's always paired with xie, sie or zie, so. I also prefer Spivak, I guess. It's weird that sie/hir seems outdated to me, yet Spivak came first!


Yaaaaaay a huge majority of google searches bring up shitty people complaining about new pronouns. \o/ that's _exactly_ what I wanted


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## sovram (Feb 4, 2013)

Only tangentially related but upon visiting a professor's office I found that he had multiple Spivak books


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