# The QUILTBAG Club (formerly the LGBT club)



## ultraviolet

Making a new thread because the last one's pretty huge now. :)


ETA: QUILTBAG stands for Queer/Questioning, Undecided, Intersex, Lesbian, Trans, Bisexual, Asexual, Gay!  It's much better than saying the LGBT club (the A is invisible.)


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## Jolty

*Re: The LGBT Club, Mk II*

FIRST

yeah the old one had the post eating glitch anyway


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## surskitty

*Re: The LGBT Club, Mk II*

That would be because it's big.

I'M RENAMING IT.


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## Zhorken

I approve of this renaming.


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## surskitty

Me too!  It's much more inclusive.  And it's a word!

And everyone likes quilts, right?!


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## MentheLapin

Schmexy new name. That is all.


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## Harlequin

...

oh my god

quiltbag is following me everywhere

wtf is this madness!!!

Over at GovTeen we've recently restructured the forum index and moved a ton of forums, and a bunch of members are kicking off because we moved the gay forum to our Communities category (idk it's retarded). ANYWAY there's a thread about how the forum isn't inclusive of asexuals, so one guy posted in big red letters QUILTBAG OR BUST.

... now everyone wants to rename the forum QUILTBAG :(


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## shy ♡

Ahahaha QUILTBAG is the best abbreviation ever. And that is all I have to say about that.


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## Stormecho

I LOVE THIS NAME :DDDD


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## MentheLapin

But now people looking for an LGBT club will be all "Hell naw I ain't no knitter" o_O


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## Worst Username Ever

"undecided" means not sure of your sexuality yet, right? If so, I'm that, or possibly asexual.


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## shy ♡

I think 'the queer club' is a good name too. We're all just queer.


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## surskitty

Nah.  'Queer' isn't always used as a blanket term, and it also doesn't really include the A.


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## shy ♡

Well, QUILTBAG isn't always used either. o_O I'm not suggesting changing it, just that it is a good blanket term that is, well, more well-known and such and such.

Also it does too include the A. 



> Queer is an umbrella term for minority sexual orientations and gender identities[1]  that are not heterosexual, heteronormative or gender-binary.


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## MentheLapin

Oh wow, I just realised that QUILTbag is a BLANKET term. *easily amused* 

I love how nobody knows what QUILTBAG stands for, so I can just sort of use it wherever I go and not get weird looks. LGBT sounds too much like a sandwich.

The QUILTBAG Club: Not queers/questioning/undecided/intersex/lesbians/transsexuals/bisexuals/asexuals/gays, just people who like talking about the acronym.

Where is this post leading? I have no idea.


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## goldenquagsire

surskitty said:


> Nah.  'Queer' isn't always used as a blanket term, and it also doesn't really include the A.


iirc, 'queer' is just 'literally everything and anything that isn't straight 100% hetero'. which, I would assume, includes asexuality. it's also got more of a punch to it than 'LGBT'.

that said, QUILTBAG is an awesome name.

oh and sign me up plz. can't remember if I did in the last thread, but may as well now. :D


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## surskitty

Pentimento said:


> Well, QUILTBAG isn't always used either. o_O


I mean that queer is not always a blanket term.  o_o It can be used for everyone non-cisgendered heterosexual, but I at least mostly see it used for genderqueer.


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## shy ♡

surskitty said:


> I mean that queer is not always a blanket term.  o_o It can be used for everyone non-cisgendered heterosexual, but I at least mostly see it used for genderqueer.


Ah, well I don't know how much you hang out in er, the QUILTBAG (eheh) community, but it is a very commonly used term. Well, among queer people, meaning it's not very common at all. :v


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## surskitty

:/ Eh.  It's common, yeah.

I don't know.  Just ... eh.


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## shy ♡

Hey, I wasn't trying to insult you in some way. I was just saying.


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## Flora

Flora's rejoining with news on her romantic life...wait what romantic life?

So my crush/best friend got a boyfriend, which has significantly decreased the awkward factor (which actually briefly returned to normal yesterday because when crush is tired awkwardness goes up a whooooole lot. but even that wasn't that awkward). Not that I mind _too_ much, some of the awkwardness was...er...yeah I don't wanna talk about it. (see, Nifty Fifty's, that's what you get for having only one bathroom stall in the girl's room.)

Though she's ridiculously tired (not to an awkwardness-boosting degree though) and kinda irritable cause of it. Which makes me sad.

My friend's trying to set me up with a friend of her boyfriend though. And he sounds adorable.


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## Minish

...catchy. Return of the LGBT/QUILTBAG club!

I feel like joining in with news of my own romantic life. Recently the people who verbally abuse me and my girlfriend at the bus stop began getting physical; we were nearly alone whereas usually we'd be part of a group and were kinda cornered. They threw snowballs (or rather, huge chunks of hard snow) at us until we were shivering, crying wrecks. :C One of them actually asked my girlfriend why she was crying. I nearly punched him. She did.

We were going to report it to the school, who have been getting a little bit better with telling us off for apparently being such great big lesbians, but they tend to leave us alone now so we just want the hassle to be over. We're still yelled and hissed at going through town, though, which kinda sucks. So yeah, apparently semi-rural England still has a while to go with accepting LGBT kids. What news.

Hrml.


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## Zeph

Haha, I adore the new title. If I ever get around to organising an LGBT society at my school, I'll propose the same title (Unless that could be counted plagiaristic!).

"So, do you want to eat at X room with Y and Z at lunch?"
"Sorry, can't, I'm going to Quiltbag Club :C"

So as everyone seems to be talking about their current LGBT-related lives, what's going on in my, erm, figurative quiltbag?

...Well, nothing.

That is all.


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## Diz

I guess I'll rejoin as bisexual, though strongly headed toward gay.

ANYWAYS I think I'm going to try and tell my one friend who I kissed the other day that I'm bisexual tonight. I already told his girlfriend, and she's surprisingly okay with everything. WHOO


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## Stormecho

I never joined this club in its first incarnation. ;_; So joinage now, most likely aromantic asexual. x3

In my groups of friends, straight is a minority. One lesbian, two probable aces, one bi and two hetero. x3 I'm meeting the bi friend's potential girlfriend today, which will be interesting. I had to promise not to interrogate her like an overprotective older sibling. >>


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## Vladimir Putin's LJ

Minish said:


> ...catchy. Return of the LGBT/QUILTBAG club!
> 
> I feel like joining in with news of my own romantic life. Recently the people who verbally abuse me and my girlfriend at the bus stop began getting physical; we were nearly alone whereas usually we'd be part of a group and were kinda cornered. They threw snowballs (or rather, huge chunks of hard snow) at us until we were shivering, crying wrecks. :C One of them actually asked my girlfriend why she was crying. I nearly punched him. She did.
> 
> We were going to report it to the school, who have been getting a little bit better with telling us off for apparently being such great big lesbians, but they tend to leave us alone now so we just want the hassle to be over. We're still yelled and hissed at going through town, though, which kinda sucks. So yeah, apparently semi-rural England still has a while to go with accepting LGBT kids. What news.
> 
> Hrml.


Are they just completely thick or malicious to a disturbing degree? Good god. I hope things get better, those people sound like complete cocks :/ wtf

QUILTBAG is such a good name! :) sadly I don't have much to contribute love-life wise because I'm still stuck in a weird limbo with a guy where neither of us will come out and say we like each other but still basically know that we do. WHICH IS RETARDED LIKE WHOA AND I WANT TO CHANGE IT >B/ go go gadget social skills i wish i had this superpower ;__;


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## shy ♡

Okay I need to make like a long crappy post sorry.

So I just had a huge conversation with my mom where I 'came out', yay. As trans, not ace, because my ace-ness is pretty obvious. Feels like crap but whatever.

Anyhow at the end she basically said 'I don't want you discussing this with the boys' (my brothers), which struck a nerve. I didn't intend to, at all, but why can't I? Is there something inappropriate with trans-ness? Why else would you shelter them from it? She said it's not 'age-appropriate' but she lets them watch literally _any_ tv show they want. One of them watches and has watched South Park since he was much younger, like, 12 or so, idk. And they talk about hetero things all the time, like my father pointing out 'hot' girls in tv shows (13 from House) nonstop. Even gay subjects are fine. She said that's 'normal and fine', about the hetero stuff. 

But this isn't age-appropriate?

She said she doesn't want them to _know_ about it. But isn't that what breeds hatred? Lack of knowledge? So she wants my own brothers to hate who I am?

I just... sigh. Am I overreacting? :| This just reminds me so much of those people who banned the children books that involved gay couples.


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## MentheLapin

Pentimento said:


> She said she doesn't want them to _know_ about it. But isn't that what breeds hatred? Lack of knowledge? So she wants my own brothers to hate who I am?


How old are they? If I had kids, and they were like 8 years old, I probably wouldn't want to have to explain to them all these ideas of sexualities that aren't gay or straight. If they're like 13+ though, then they should know. Definitely.


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## shy ♡

ShadScy said:


> How old are they? If I had kids, and they were like 8 years old, I probably wouldn't want to have to explain to them all these ideas of sexualities that aren't gay or straight. If they're like 13+ though, then they should know. Definitely.


11 and er, 14/15 (I forget lul). The thing is, I'm not planning on 'explaining' anything, actually I wasn't even going to mention it at all. I just think they should know that, you know, people can be non-binary.

Also growing up knowing it, below age 8, is probably what would be the healthiest. Not having it _explained_ but just knowing it - seeing people that aren't binary, etc. 

(Also rrrrg trans isn't a sexuality.)


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## MentheLapin

Pentimento said:


> 11 and er, 14/15 (I forget lul). The thing is, I'm not planning on 'explaining' anything, actually I wasn't even going to mention it at all. I just think they should know that, you know, people can be non-binary.
> 
> Also growing up knowing it, below age 8, is probably what would be the healthiest. Not having it _explained_ but just knowing it - seeing people that aren't binary, etc.
> 
> (Also rrrrg trans isn't a sexuality.)


The 14/15 year old is definitely old enough to know about it. Surely this being you, it's your right to tell whoever you want?

(And sorry for my idiocy. What in the world _is_ it classed as?)


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## shy ♡

ShadScy said:


> The 14/15 year old is definitely old enough to know about it. Surely this being you, it's your right to tell whoever you want?
> 
> (And sorry for my idiocy. What in the world _is_ it classed as?)


Yeah, but she's all 'they're my kids', etc. Also the 11 year old is pretty mature and would get it. :\ Also also, they both _know_ about trans-people existing so it's not like an entirely new subject. Idk.

It's gender identity.


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## Zeph

Speaking of trans-ness and gender identity, something quite wonderful happened in a General Studies lesson the other day. We were discussing what aspects of a person give a sense of self, and at one point somebody said 'sex'; then about a minute later somebody else said 'gender'. The teacher, of course, said "Oh, we've already got sex", so at this point I and the other person said "But they're different! Sex is what your body is, and gender is what you identify as!" or something of the sort, and everybody else in the class was kind of confused for a minute but then we explained more and they actually understood! It was quite fantastic.


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## shy ♡

Zephyrous Castform said:


> Speaking of trans-ness and gender identity, something quite wonderful happened in a General Studies lesson the other day. We were discussing what aspects of a person give a sense of self, and at one point somebody said 'sex'; then about a minute later somebody else said 'gender'. The teacher, of course, said "Oh, we've already got sex", so at this point I and the other person said "But they're different! Sex is what your body is, and gender is what you identify as!" or something of the sort, and everybody else in the class was kind of confused for a minute but then we explained more and they actually understood! It was quite fantastic.


That's awesome :D My mom had tremendous difficulty even after I showed her a website dedicated to explaining it, the wiki article on gender, and explained it as thoroughly as I could. Sigh.


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## Dinru

Re-joining as pansexual and questioning gender identity.

LIFE UPDATES Two of my friends are bisexual girls who are dating each other! Otherwise, not much that's QUILTBAG related.


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## ultraviolet

joining again (what, I started this thread) as bisexual I guess

in today's news I'm single (aaaa) and have a crush on my female pansexual friend. :| this is extremely frustrating because I'm not the only one. ack


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## Jolty

since everyone is giving updates on their lives...

>got denied to start testosterone for now
>having psychotherapy sessions for a while :|
>don't know what will happen after that
>now out to everyone who needs to know except my one irl friend, who I will tell in the new year
>been with my girlfriend for 5 months now yaaay


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## Clover

Re... joining...? though there's not exactly a member's list, so... haha...

The closest I have come to progress is last night at a party someone asked "<Have you ever kissed a guy?>" "<Nope.>" "<Have you ever kissed a girl?>" "<Nope.>" "<Why not?>" "<Well... I've never dated! And no one's ever asked.>" which is sort of super vague yes

... I am the most boring eighteen year old. Probably hopefully things will get better when I get back to the states. :B ('better', not that things aren't perfectly okay now... eh.)

Relatedly, have an interview with Amanda Palmer including her thoughts on being single/in a relationship.



> I was single, I had hit thirty, and I was finding myself in a really defensive position, probably of my own making. I started to sort through the cultural noise, what it meant to choose to be single, and to choose my path as not the relentless crunch to find some magic other person to complete me. I had been single for long enough that I sat myself down for a year or so and said, "If you’re looking for a relationship, and don’t even know that you are, are you looking to a relationship as what has been mandated as what you have to do to be happy?" And I was really, really thinking deeply about this, because I had looked around a lot, and I was like, Wow, I’ve been single for _three years_. I might like to be in a relationship. But actually, I’m really happy. I love my friends, I love my life. I’m not in a relationship, and yet I feel this weird pressure from culture as a whole, from my parents, saying, "But you won’t be _truly_ happy until you find that special someone." And I don’t know if I buy it. I sat down and thought about it long and hard; do I buy it? Or is it possible to be alone and truly happy?


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## JackPK

Midnight said:


> Relatedly, have an interview with Amanda Palmer including her thoughts on being single/in a relationship.


Which is a bit moot since now she's engaged to Neil Gaiman, but what evs.

Anyway, speaking of Amanda Palmer, have her new single (semi NSFW). It's about pubes.

EDIT: Oh, and slightly more on topic, have this older AFP song which is somewhat more on topic with the single-vs.-relationship topic we were on.



> _now i am 33
> unmarried happily
> no plans in life and i'm planning to keep it that way
> i do kissing with only one mission
> do you like to kiss? then you have my permission
> 
> and i have already spent too much time
> doing things i didn't want to
> so if i just want to make out all the time
> you can bet your black ass that i'm going to _


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## opaltiger

> Which is a bit moot since now she's engaged to Neil Gaiman, but what evs.


Why does that make it a moot point? Also they're married.


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## JackPK

opaltiger said:


> Why does that make it a moot point? Also they're married.


I dunno, I was trying to say something about the fact that she felt like she could be just as happy alone but still ended up in a long-term heavily-committed relationship.

And guh her life is so whirlwind to keep track of even when following her on twitter. I thought it still wasn't technically legally done yet (although, yes, I remember them having the ceremony).


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## opaltiger

Pfft, legalities. :P I was four years old before my parents were legally married.


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## Butterfree

Four? I was _twelve_! I started TQftL on their wedding day!

[/irrelevant]

I was talking to my mom a while ago about the population of my forums and mentioned that at least half of the members were gay/bisexual/asexual, and she was all "What's asexuality?" and when I explained it she went "What? That doesn't exist! They're just deluding themselves!" :/ Sometimes I forget how little these issues are actually discussed outside of the internet. Then I look in this club and realize, oh, wow, this really happens _all the time_.


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## Elliekat

T-the A :> It's beautiful*A*
Sign me up! I alsays felt a bit left out of the old thread because of the lack of A.

Anyway. The new name is awesome :D I feel included!


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## ZimD

Oh, hi. I like penises, and I like the fact that I like penises.


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## shy ♡

Bachuru said:


> Four? I was _twelve_! I started TQftL on their wedding day!
> 
> [/irrelevant]
> 
> I was talking to my mom a while ago about the population of my forums and mentioned that at least half of the members were gay/bisexual/asexual, and she was all "What's asexuality?" and when I explained it she went "What? That doesn't exist! They're just deluding themselves!" :/ Sometimes I forget how little these issues are actually discussed outside of the internet. Then I look in this club and realize, oh, wow, this really happens _all the time_.


Hrhr yeah, I delude myself too in that I rarely leave the house. :D How comforting the internet is...

Really though, I love how this forum has become like, a QUILTBAG hangout. It's so strange and so awesome.


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## Lorem Ipsum

Rejoining and bringing rainbows with me.

QUILTBAG is my new favourite word. And I love how this forum seems to be a massive bastion of forward thinking.

But in other news, really pissed off at the moment. Most of my friends are amazing with my gayness, and are really accepting. But there are one or two who can't stop fucking going on about it, like constantly coming back to me liking dick or whatever, calling me queer and a rear gardener etc. etc. From other guys who have had this happen does this ever stop or is it just them being twats?


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## Zeph

Lorem Ipsum said:


> From other guys who have had this happen does this ever stop or is it just them being twats?


Both, in most cases! They will almost certainly get bored after a while. Just don't, you know, react when they say stuff like that, and they'll grow out of it.


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## Spoon

I never joined the original thread because it was so big and intimidating, but I've always enjoyed reading the discussions. I suppose I'll actually join this time.

 As for me, I identify as an aromantic asexual. It really isn't a big secret or anything, so my close friends know. It's awkard, however, when it seems like a friend of mine has a crush on me. I don't know what to do, so I tend to avoid them because of the awkardness. x.x;


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## MentheLapin

Ryubane said:


> Usually they get bored with it and they'll resort to teasing a small feminine straight guy.


And then the small feminine straight guy starts to question his sexuality thanks to the teasing, and the cycle begins again.


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## Elliekat

Bachuru said:


> Four? I was _twelve_! I started TQftL on their wedding day!
> 
> [/irrelevant]
> 
> I was talking to my mom a while ago about the population of my forums and mentioned that at least half of the members were gay/bisexual/asexual, and she was all "What's asexuality?" and when I explained it she went "What? That doesn't exist! They're just deluding themselves!" :/ Sometimes I forget how little these issues are actually discussed outside of the internet. Then I look in this club and realize, oh, wow, this really happens _all the time_.


This makes me sad :< of course this is also why I haven't told my parents about the asexual thing, because I know I would get a reaction like "Oh Ellie, you're just saying that because you've never had a boyfriend." They're already confused that I don't have a crush on anyone, much less that I am legitimately not attracted to really anyone at all.


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## Stormecho

My parents irritate me at times. >> I've come out to them, and my friends are open about their sexuality, but my mom and dad believe that we're all going through a phase. x_x

Ironically, my religious grandmother totally accepted it, as do my brother and his girlfriend, who lives with us. My brother might just be disappointed that he can't interrogate people who want to go out with me. x3 They both lightly tease my friends and I about our sexualities, and yesterday his girlfriend discussed how the difference between platonic, romantic and sexual is such a fine line when you're trying to define and separate them. I love how accepting they are. <3


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## Elliekat

Just found out one of my best friends is bi, leaning towards lesbian. I'm glad she felt like she could tell me! I told her about the ace thing and she was fine with it.


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## Harlequin

I've found that my flatmates have been incredibly accepting about the fact I'm gay, although I think that's due to me not being stereotypically gay. I've been told many times that I "don't look/act gay", and that if they didn't _know_ I liked men they'd just assume I'm a typical straight dood. ... which is good to know, I guess.

... we have a "gay list" in which all of the members of our flat have a place on the list. I'm number four, and there are nine of us, and the only reason I'm number four is because _I actually like men_. 

I think my life would be incredibly different if I were a bit more ... er... stereotypically gay, so I've mostly managed to avoid things that other LGBTs experience. I mean, the only times my sexuality is mentioned is to contrast me and the guy at the top of our list. This weekend I remember a comment along the lines of "...Ewan _likes men sexually_ and you're still gayer than he is". I loled.

SO recently I've only had good experiences with gayness. I guess.

Just sharin'.


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## Ryan the Terrible

Heh, didn't realize this is what this was until I clicked on it by accident. :X QUILTBAG is a good term though...

Either way I'll rejoin now, whee.



Harlequin said:


> I've found that my flatmates have been incredibly accepting about the fact I'm gay, although I think that's due to me not being stereotypically gay. I've been told many times that I "don't look/act gay", and that if they didn't _know_ I liked men they'd just assume I'm a typical straight dood. ... which is good to know, I guess.
> 
> ... we have a "gay list" in which all of the members of our flat have a place on the list. I'm number four, and there are nine of us, and the only reason I'm number four is because _I actually like men_.
> 
> I think my life would be incredibly different if I were a bit more ... er... stereotypically gay, so I've mostly managed to avoid things that other LGBTs experience. I mean, the only times my sexuality is mentioned is to contrast me and the guy at the top of our list. This weekend I remember a comment along the lines of "...Ewan _likes men sexually_ and you're still gayer than he is". I loled.
> 
> SO recently I've only had good experiences with gayness. I guess.
> 
> Just sharin'.


This is an epic tale. xD


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## Dinru

I have Harlequin's... quirk XD I've been told many times that people "could only see me with a boy" or that I "don't act bi/pan". People also tend to forget about my queerness, which is funny when I comment on a girl/gender-variant and people are all "o0!! OWAIT." Although lately I've been making a bit of a turn towards more stereotypically "butch" things (although the turn is a slow one due to lack of money, and because before this I went through an uber-girlie faze so that's the sort of thing people buy for me x.x) and I've been gradually getting that a lot less.


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## Flora

See, I haven't actually come out to any of my friends (or anyone in general, though my sis might know), but that's mainly because it isn't really _necessary._ (and to avoid awkwardness, because I can't seem to avoid crushing on my friends *headdesk*)

but no one really _suspects_ because I'm certainly not the most awkward person in the group. (that honor probably goes to my best friend, who nearly flashed me at Nifty Fifty's. and kept putting her head on my shoulder the whole car ride there. and then something else that I can't remember.)


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## JackPK

Starlit Ocean said:


> How does one even _look_ gay? (Aside from a guy wearing pink flip-flops and makeup but that's another topic)


They probably mean look "stereotypically" gay, i.e. obvious attention given to one's appearance, tight and often colorful clothing, etc. (and I suppose a more feminine "poise", but that's much harder to quantify.)


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## JackPK

Starlit Ocean said:


> That's very subjective.


Yeah, that's what I meant by difficult to quantify. It isn't something somebody could pin down.


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## ...

Jack_the_PumpkinKing said:


> Yeah, that's what I meant by difficult to quantify. It isn't something somebody could pin down.


The majority of _girls_ out there don't act as feminine as some of those really sissy gay guys.


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## Harlequin

It's quite obviously a comment based entirely on stereotypes.


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## Tailsy

There's no need to be abrasive; judging by your original comment I would have thought you didn't entirely understand, either.

(Also, calling effeminate men 'sissy' is rather insulting. The word has very negative connotations.)


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## MentheLapin

Tailsy said:


> (Also, calling effeminate men 'sissy' is rather insulting. The word has very negative connotations.)


I quite like "sissy" :P It's kinda cute, if used in a non-insulting way. even though it never is


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## Tailsy

ShadScy said:


> I quite like "sissy" :P It's kinda cute, if used in a non-insulting way. even though it never is


I only ever remember it being used as an insult at primary school (when saying 'gay' or 'fag' would get you into serious shit). 

"don't be such a sissy! why don't you want to play football with us, you sissy?"
"you're such a sissy little girl, stop crying about it."
"if you don't go and get it, then you're a sissy."

:c I just find it really uncomfortable to hear.


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## Flora

Flower Doll said:


> but no one really _suspects_ because I'm certainly not the most awkward person in the group. (that honor probably goes to my best friend, who nearly flashed me at Nifty Fifty's. and kept putting her head on my shoulder the whole car ride there. *and then something else that I can't remember.)*


_Now_ I remember; she'll occasionally pull me onto her lap. This happens very very rarely though.

and the "I love you"s for no real reason. and that one time where I was really really sleepy and I went to talk to her and another friend and she was like "Uh, can I just talk to Jess alone for a second?" and after that conversation she came out of the classroom saying "So keep an eye on her, okay?" and gave me a weird look.

but knowing me i'm probably reading too much into that.


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## MentheLapin

Tailsy said:


> I only ever remember it being used as an insult at primary school (when saying 'gay' or 'fag' would get you into serious shit).
> 
> "don't be such a sissy! why don't you want to play football with us, you sissy?"
> "you're such a sissy little girl, stop crying about it."
> "if you don't go and get it, then you're a sissy."
> 
> :c I just find it really uncomfortable to hear.


I've never really heard it used, which might be the reason why it doesn't offend me. It sort of seems like a kind of American term that is used on Cartoon Network shows.


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## ...

I've only ever heard those really flaming, effeminate gay guys described as "sissy." And I've heard of one girl whose actual legal name was Sissy. And she turned out to be a butch lesbian. 

(Not trying to be rude, I just found this so funny and ironic)


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## Michi

Er, rejoining, as like 98% gay and 2% straight. Although I'm not sure I'd have to rejoin, nobodies really keeping track. :P

So I have a little problem. The guy I like is my best friend and I've tried to tell him multiple times that I like him. One time, he was even like "Oh wait, does that mean you..." and I was like "YES NOW DO YOU GET IT?" And then he lost the thought. And he's literally the smartest guy in our town and is applying to IMSA, so I'm really confused as to how he missed _that_. >_< 

He also left me out when a friend of mine who knows all this pointed out he has 3 people who like him, naming the other two and being generally confused as to the identity of the third person (me). But then he's agreed to never talk about "what was said that Friday" in public again. So now I have no clue whether he knows or not!

Now he's had plenty of girlfriends, as in twenty to my one (all of his relationships last like 3 weeks max), but then get this - he was the first friend to jump on the chance to go to the Monster Ball with me. Which makes me really confused because FFFFFF WHY

Uh, sorry for ranting about my problems. :[


----------



## Flora

Zodiac said:


> So I have a little problem. The guy I like is my best friend and I've tried to tell him multiple times that I like him. One time, he was even like "Oh wait, does that mean you..." and I was like "YES NOW DO YOU GET IT?" And then he lost the thought. And he's literally the smartest guy in our town and is applying to IMSA, so I'm really confused as to how he missed _that_. >_<


Maybe he's just oblivious to romantic stuff? I'm like that too, it took me _two years_ and a ton of convincing (including my best friend literally _skipping around the cafeteria_ singing "HE LIKES YOU HE LIKES YOU HE LIKES YOU~") before I finally realized that my crush liked me. And by that point I was over him. *headdesk* Hopefully he'll get it eventually.

(That's actually why I'm so confused with my best friend! I swear to God, if she does like me, one of these days it's gonna be so obvious that I'll just be like "wait, she likes me?" and everyone _else_ will be like "...Rachel where have you been, _duh.")

_(also _completely _unrelated but OMG Zodiac t.A.T.u in your signature :D)


----------



## JackPK

Zodiac said:


> Now he's had plenty of girlfriends, as in twenty to my one (all of his relationships last like 3 weeks max), but then get this - he was the first friend to jump on the chance to go to the Monster Ball with me. Which makes me really confused because FFFFFF WHY


I hate to present an unfavorable scenario to you, but I kinda wish I'd taken into account unfavorable situations when I was younger so I'll tell you: Sounds like he's avoiding the issue, which in my experience would probably mean he doesn't want to reject you because he doesn't want it to mess with your friendship. And straight boys can like Gaga too. Not to say that's the only thing that could be happening, just what it looks like to me.

My middle/high school days would've been a lot happier if I'd learnt to stop chasing straight boys. Hell, I'm not even sure I've even learnt yet. My head knows it, at least. That's a start.


----------



## Michi

Flower Doll said:


> (That's actually why I'm so confused with my best friend! I swear to God, if she does like me, one of these days it's gonna be so obvious that I'll just be like "wait, she likes me?" and everyone _else_ will be like "...Rachel where have you been, _duh.")
> 
> _(also _completely _unrelated but OMG Zodiac t.A.T.u in your signature :D)


That first part is how it ALWAYS happens with me, but never with people I like. :/

As for my signature YEAHHH :D That has to be one of my favorite songs ever :P

EDIT: Jack_the_PumpkinKing, I have considered this and I do think it's the most likely thing. And it's not him liking her that I have an issue with, it's the fact he'd still go with me when he realizes or at one point realized how awkward it would be for me to be alone with him ever again, much less for 5 hours at a concert, regardless of whether it would be awkward to him or if he'd even remember.


----------



## Zeph

Ugh. So I was just in town getting my hair cut, and the hairdressing women at the shop were talking and somehow got to the topic of the film Brokeback Mountain. The conversation went something like "I've never seen it, but I've heard what it's about, [insert slightly worried giggle]" "Yeah, it sounds quite disturbing!" "Mmm, creepy. Did you hear it got quite a few awards?" "Yeah, all the weird films like that do."

I was... Too polite to comment! I mean I've never seen the film myself, but describing it as 'disturbing' just because it concerns a gay couple? Eh.



Starlit Ocean said:


> So.
> 
> To kind of wake up this thread, I was hit by the realization a couple of nights ago that  might be gay instead of bi.
> 
> Whoopdi-doo, I guess. :/


Hey, there's nothing wrong with that! What's bothering you about it, m'dear?


----------



## JackPK

Zephyrous Castform said:


> Ugh. So I was just in town getting my hair cut, and the hairdressing women at the shop were talking and somehow got to the topic of the film Brokeback Mountain. The conversation went something like "I've never seen it, but I've heard what it's about, [insert slightly worried giggle]" "Yeah, it sounds quite disturbing!" "Mmm, creepy. Did you hear it got quite a few awards?" "Yeah, all the weird films like that do."
> 
> I was... Too polite to comment! I mean I've never seen the film myself, but describing it as 'disturbing' just because it concerns a gay couple? Eh.


I'm guessing that means you live in a somewhat small town? My old high school's been around for decades but only just got a gay-straight alliance this year because the town's been so small for so many years and there are so few gays around that nobody thought to start one. (I suspect it's only happened now because we've grown so much in the last five years or so. Last year the high school was up to 2500 kids in a facility designed for 1500 max, and this year the district opened up a second high school.)


----------



## Zeph

Jack_the_PumpkinKing said:


> I'm guessing that means you live in a somewhat small town? My old high school's been around for decades but only just got a gay-straight alliance this year because the town's been so small for so many years and there are so few gays around that nobody thought to start one. (I suspect it's only happened now because we've grown so much in the last five years or so. Last year the high school was up to 2500 kids in a facility designed for 1500 max, and this year the district opened up a second high school.)


Not exactly small... The population's about 18,000. Eh, I dunno! Most people I know (Pretty much every at my school (which has about 2,300 students!), for instance) isn't, y'know, homophobic or anything. I guess it was just these women or something.


----------



## ...

Zephyrous Castform said:


> Ugh. So I was just in town getting my hair cut, and the hairdressing women at the shop were talking and somehow got to the topic of the film Brokeback Mountain. The conversation went something like "I've never seen it, but I've heard what it's about, [insert slightly worried giggle]" "Yeah, it sounds quite disturbing!" "Mmm, creepy. Did you hear it got quite a few awards?" "Yeah, all the weird films like that do."
> 
> I was... Too polite to comment! I mean I've never seen the film myself, but describing it as 'disturbing' just because it concerns a gay couple? Eh.


Ahaha, that sounds almost exactly like a conversation I had with one of my friends a couple weeks ago. I haven't seen the movie myself, but from what I've heard, it doesn't sound all that appealing anyway, despite its awards. 



Zephyrous Castform said:


> Hey, there's nothing wrong with that! What's bothering you about it, m'dear?


I just don't want to accept it because of people around here and the general opinion they have. Tennessee=not gay-friendly. Hell, it took three years and several waves of depression just to come to the realization I was bi. And if my parents even found out about that, I don't even want to think about what could happen. 

Just...general nervousness I guess.


----------



## Minish

Starlit Ocean said:


> I just don't want to accept it because of people around here and the general opinion they have. Tennessee=not gay-friendly. Hell, it took three years and several waves of depression just to come to the realization I was bi. And if my parents even found out about that, I don't even want to think about what could happen.
> 
> Just...general nervousness I guess.


Is coming out as gay really that much worse than coming out as bi? I can understand that since bisexuals are attracted to the opposite gender they're not as _controversial_, but bisexuality has a whole host of problems of its own. Being branded as an attention-seeker, greedy, unsure, just putting on a front etc.

Surely if where you live isn't gay-friendly, it's no more bi-friendly? 

And Brokeback Mountain is awesome! \o/ Castform, those women sound utterly annoying.


----------



## ...

Cirrus said:


> Is coming out as gay really that much worse than coming out as bi? I can understand that since bisexuals are attracted to the opposite gender they're not as _controversial_, but bisexuality has a whole host of problems of its own. Being branded as an attention-seeker, greedy, unsure, just putting on a front etc.
> 
> Surely if where you live isn't gay-friendly, it's no more bi-friendly?


The way a lot of folks around here see it judging by general opinions and people I have come out to already about being bi, it's more like since bi people are attracted to both males and females, they're really only half-gay. Which in their eyes, obviously, isn't "as bad" as being gay. I suppose they're just ignorant of what it really is and how it shouldn't automatically be lumped in with gay, but oh well.


----------



## shy ♡

Bi often gets _more_ hate, both within the community and without. To quote from my mother, _'they should just make up their minds'_ and _'if they like both they should just choose the opposite sex because it's easier_' (as if you choose who you fall in love with). :| While within the community, they get crap like thinking they're faking it, or when they _do_ choose an opposite-sex partner, that they're taking the easy way out.

Basically, no non-hetero sexuality is easier than any other.


----------



## hopeandjoy

So, uh, speaking of bi people, the more I thin about it, the more I want to come out. To my parents anyway. (School would be a disaster. Even if lesbians are considered hot to some.)

But my Mom thinks that bi people are just sluts or confused and I know she would tell me I'm too young and my hormones are just crazy ect, ect. Before someone does dwell on the fact I'm fourteen, let it also be known that I was in puberty starting in _3rd grade_ (I must've set some kinda record).

So do you think it's a good idea or should I just wait? I won't get disowned or anything, but I don't think I'll be believed.


----------



## Dinru

Again on the subject of bisexuality! But a bit happier :3

 Today I was having a rather... down day. I ended up having to call a lot of people out on sexist, racist, transphobic and homophobic bullshit throughout the day, and I ended up being silenced for even more. I was drained, tired, et cetera. And then, out of nowhere, this guy that I was friends with forever ago and have been on speaking terms with lately (though not exactly close) just sort of... came up to me and started talking. We talked about the ideas of "straight until proven gay" and how when one queer person says/thinks anything suddenly thats what every queer person thinks, et cetera. And I talked to him about the self-realization process and found out he's bisexual and it's just... I forgot how liberating it is to talk to someone about those things and have them not only judge you, but have had similar experiences and know where you're coming from.

I mean I know I have that here on the internet, but... I've never had that in the real world before. It felt good :)


----------



## octobr

fun fact guys
usually coming out has like 0 impact on life

just saying??

I mean I'm saying this as someone who is fairly open about being trans and the most I've gotten is jealousy from guys because I live in a girl's dorm.


----------



## ultraviolet

um hi guys? I've come upon the sudden realisation that I a) am really attracted to one of my close female friends (who is bisexual or pansexual?? I forget) and b) I have no idea how to court women

or even be ~together~ with a girl

:S


----------



## Harlequin

uv: scissor


----------



## Flazeah

If I were in your position, ultraviolet, I think I'd gradually try to let her know. Maybe invite her to places just the two of you so you can gauge whether she likes you romantically or not?

 Gah. As for me, there are loads of cute women on campus. I also kind of like one of my male friends but don't expect anything to happen there and wouldn't really want anything to at this point. Wouldn't be fair when I currently like someone else more and would also probably rather date - if I had the opportunity - one of the females other than her that I find attractive than the guy, due to preferring to remain only friends with him. Watch out at uni, people who are considering going there. It's ridiculously awesome.


----------



## Arylett Charnoa

Yoshiya Kiryu said:


> But now people looking for an LGBT club will be all "Hell naw I ain't no knitter" o_O


Ha ha, I thought that! When I saw this, I was like: "...What the hell? Is this some weird club about an anime about quilts? It sounds awful and boring." And so I skipped over it, didn't really look at it until I saw that the old LGBT thread was locked, and saw a redirect to this thread.

I'm probably the only one who doesn't really like the new name, 'cause it makes me think of some boring knitting club. But eh, not a big deal. Rejoining anyways!

Anyways! Uh, my status? I'm... bisexual. And I honestly don't tend to think of my sexuality that much. I don't really care who knows, although I don't go around announcing it either. I neither try to hide it nor deny it. Most people make their own assumptions about me anyways. Many of them think I'm a lesbian, or something not heterosexual, so I don't really need to say anything. I guess I'm "obvious" or something, probably the way I dress.

My bisexuality is kinda peculiar. Lately, I've been feeling like... boyish. I'm just in a mood for boys, but at the same time, I sort of am not really physically attracted to them. I don't find boys sexy most of the time, but I'd be willing to be with them anyways. I find girls more attractive, although I don't want an emotional connection with them as much as I do with boys.

Oh and I'm single too. I have like zero romantic life. I'm 18 and yes, I've never been with anyone*. And there really aren't any prospects around me either... I mean, everytime I like someone, there's this annoying effect of them being the OPPOSITE orientation of liking girls. I like a guy? He's gay. I like a girl? She's straight. It's like, 90% of the time, it happens. Although I'm not really crushing on anyone at the moment.

(*Except one person on the internet, but I don't count that. Because they didn't count it and eventually told me that it wasn't real.)


----------



## shy ♡

What's wrong with knitting clubs?!


----------



## Lili

Hell, I may as well join the club.  I've been at the certain stage of life that I've started "questioning" my sexuality.  I am more attracted to boys, but I've had a slight crush on one of my friends from the hospital for a while, which I guess makes me bicurious or something.


----------



## ultraviolet

Flazeah said:


> If I were in your position, ultraviolet, I think I'd gradually try to let her know. Maybe invite her to places just the two of you so you can gauge whether she likes you romantically or not?


yeah the problem with this is that she's generally very comfortable around women anyway and I think the only way I can actually figure it out is go "SO do you like me :O". she is moving into a new flat this year on campus so I can just hang out there and that'll be cool. 



			
				Harlequin said:
			
		

> uv: scissor


noted!


----------



## Drowzee64

QUILTBAG, eh? I guess I'll join in as a gay member, as if anyone is keeping count.

So uh. I guess I should share a few things I found on the interwebs. First up is the "That's Gay" InfoMania shorts, which provided me with a few quick laughs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBkYdUgl3-M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tHppucxMrM

And next is TVTropes' section of... LGBT tropes.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/QueerAsTropes

And the mandatory QUILTBAG LIFE UPDATE:

Actually nothing much. I was angsting about it A LOT during the second half of 2009 and first half of 2010, so it's kind of funny now that it's barely even a part of my life. I'm actually not even bothering to search for a boyfriend, as I'm in kind of a mental mess right now and I fail socializing for life. If anyone brings up sexuality related things in passing (I.e. "When the boys (Me, my brother, and my friends) all bring home girlfriends, THEN it'll be crazy.") I still don't bother to correct them, as I can't be bothered to put up with the reaction. However, I think I'll always be like that unless I move somewhere really liberal.


----------



## Zeph

So I had a conversation with a friend today, where we were talking about this other friend of ours, whom I used to be really close friends with until he started being a bit of a figurative penis.The friend I was talking to, however, told me of a conversation they had about this other guy we know, who can never decide if he's bi or gay and always makes a big drama about it.

So apparently during this conversation, this little extract came up (1 is the girl I was actually talking to, 2 is the guy I used to be close with and with whom she was talking):

1: I really hate it when people go on about being gay just for attention.
2: Yeah. Reminds me of someone else.
1: Who do you mean?
2: You know? That other one we know?
1: [Who etc]
1: *Nods in my direction*

And, well, yeah, when she told me he'd said that, I was genuinely really offended. Apparently the conversation continued with him saying that I apparently 'decided' to like men just so I could 'get attention' from people. While this of course makes no sense for reasons I don't even need to explain, the one thing that is strangest is that his _mother_ has been in a long-lasting relationship with another woman for, as far as I know, at least five years. Surely he should know there's no "choice" about it?

After she told me this, I just sat there spluttering in utter offence and bemusement.

Frankly the only thing stopping me from sending him a very angry e-mail is the fact that I know he'd probably entirely ignore it.


----------



## Harlequin

In fairness, there's research to suggest that female sexuality is wired differently to male sexuality and that there _is_ a far greater degree of flexibility when compared with male sexuality in general. 

I mean, not that that's particularly relevant to you right now, I just thought it was interesting to note. Like, women might not necessarily have an _orientation_ but rather a _preference_ (whereas the opposite seems to be true for males).


----------



## opaltiger

Harlequin said:


> In fairness, there's research to suggest that female sexuality is wired differently to male sexuality and that there _is_ a far greater degree of flexibility when compared with male sexuality in general.
> 
> I mean, not that that's particularly relevant to you right now, I just thought it was interesting to note. Like, women might not necessarily have an _orientation_ but rather a _preference_ (whereas the opposite seems to be true for males).


I would love to hear the methodology used to determine that.


----------



## Elliekat

Ugh, my friends :( So I was saying something the other day to one of them, and I had to explain what asexuality was, and they keep going all like 'LOL IF YOU'RE ASEXUAL YOU REPRODUCE WITH YOURSELF :O' and I keep having to be 'no, that's wrong.' It's annoying and plus, one of them is bi, so I hoped she of all people would be a little less like this (as opposed to my other, superconservative friend.)


----------



## JackPK

opaltiger said:


> I would love to hear the methodology used to determine that.


I don't remember where to find the actual study and I'm not bothered enough to Google it, but I remember reading about some scientists who showed a series of images ranging from merely romantic to hardcore erotic to the test's subjects (which were of various sexualities) and observed the levels of pleasure-inducing chemicals in the brain. Straight men tended to have the chemical release more for couples involving at least one woman, and gay men had the chemical release more for couples involving at least one man, but the kicker was that most women had the chemical release for most of the images, regardless of the sexuality depicted.

That's not to say that women's sexualities are more flexible than men's. But I interpreted it more along the lines of, for non-straight sexualities, women are geared more toward a "wider"/"open" sexuality like bi/pansexuality, and men more toward a more "specific" one like homosexuality. It would certainly explain why there seem to be so many more bisexual women than men. (Well, that, and the Western world's attitude of "woman on woman = hot, man on man = disgusting".)


----------



## MentheLapin

Elliekat said:


> Ugh, my friends :( So I was saying something the other day to one of them, and I had to explain what asexuality was, and they keep going all like 'LOL IF YOU'RE ASEXUAL YOU REPRODUCE WITH YOURSELF :O' and I keep having to be 'no, that's wrong.' It's annoying and plus, one of them is bi, so I hoped she of all people would be a little less like this (as opposed to my other, superconservative friend.)


Oh god. Everyone I know is like this >:|


----------



## ...

Elliekat said:


> they keep going all like 'LOL IF YOU'RE ASEXUAL YOU REPRODUCE WITH YOURSELF :O'


Please tell me they're joking. Please.


----------



## Stormecho

Starlit Ocean said:


> Please tell me they're joking. Please.


...No, probably not. I've encountered that kind of stupidity as well. :/ And also being asked "Won't I be lonely?" because of course no interest in romance or sex automatically means I am _alone forever._


----------



## octobr

err i make the asexuality joke all the time

(mostly because I would be extremely pleased with the ability to bud off a clone of myself)


----------



## Harlequin

opaltiger said:


> I would love to hear the methodology used to determine that.


I'll try to find the original articles, if you want. At the time I read them it was only a suggestion that women might be wired slightly differently. I just thought I'd mention it because it's interesting.


----------



## Harlequin

Starlit Ocean said:


> Please tell me they're joking. Please.


Most people have never encountered asexuality outside of a scientific context before so it stands to reason that they'll associate it with asexual reproduction rather than "I don't have any interest in sex".


----------



## Minish

Jack_the_PumpkinKing said:


> I don't remember where to find the actual study and I'm not bothered enough to Google it, but I remember reading about some scientists who showed a series of images ranging from merely romantic to hardcore erotic to the test's subjects (which were of various sexualities) and observed the levels of pleasure-inducing chemicals in the brain. Straight men tended to have the chemical release more for couples involving at least one woman, and gay men had the chemical release more for couples involving at least one man, but the kicker was that most women had the chemical release for most of the images, regardless of the sexuality depicted.
> 
> That's not to say that women's sexualities are more flexible than men's. But I interpreted it more along the lines of, for non-straight sexualities, women are geared more toward a "wider"/"open" sexuality like bi/pansexuality, and men more toward a more "specific" one like homosexuality. It would certainly explain why there seem to be so many more bisexual women than men. (Well, that, and the Western world's attitude of "woman on woman = hot, man on man = disgusting".)


That really doesn't make much sense to me. Looking at this research, if you wanted to actually take anything from it, wouldn't it just be that men tend to react more to sexual images than romantic ones, and the opposite for women?

Images can be romantically pleasing regardless of who is in them.  But obviously sexual images aren't going to be pleasing for you if you're not attracted to who's in them. Seriously, this is an awful study. :|


----------



## Butterfree

I read about a vaguely similar study (measuring erections in men and lubrication in women) showing people of different genders and sexualities images of 1) a heterosexual couple having sex, 2) a lesbian couple having sex, 3) a gay male couple having sex, 4) a naked woman walking on a beach, 5) a naked man walking on a beach, and 6) chimpanzees having sex. If I remember correctly, men roughly followed the rule that they were aroused if it involved someone they were attracted to; women, on the other hand, were generally aroused by the sexual images in general (even if they involved chimpanzees or only people they weren't attracted to) and not by the non-sexual naked people walking on a beach regardless of whether they were attracted to them or not.

I wouldn't exactly interpret that as women tending more towards bisexual, unless you also wanted to say women tend more towards bestiality. It's just that the brain's 'let's get aroused now' rule of thumb involves 'there is sex going on' more than 'there are naked women/men'.


----------



## opaltiger

I am and will always be deeply suspicious of any study that claims to have discovered an innate difference between the sexes. No experiment can be controlled well enough to remove entirely the effect of society.


----------



## Zeph

Zephyrous Castform said:


> So I had a conversation with a friend today, where we were talking about this other friend of ours, whom I used to be really close friends with until he started being a bit of a figurative penis.The friend I was talking to, however, told me of a conversation they had about this other guy we know, who can never decide if he's bi or gay and always makes a big drama about it.
> 
> So apparently during this conversation, this little extract came up (1 is the girl I was actually talking to, 2 is the guy I used to be close with and with whom she was talking):
> 
> 1: I really hate it when people go on about being gay just for attention.
> 2: Yeah. Reminds me of someone else.
> 1: Who do you mean?
> 2: You know? That other one we know?
> 1: [Who etc]
> 1: *Nods in my direction*
> 
> And, well, yeah, when she told me he'd said that, I was genuinely really offended. Apparently the conversation continued with him saying that I apparently 'decided' to like men just so I could 'get attention' from people. While this of course makes no sense for reasons I don't even need to explain, the one thing that is strangest is that his _mother_ has been in a long-lasting relationship with another woman for, as far as I know, at least five years. Surely he should know there's no "choice" about it?
> 
> After she told me this, I just sat there spluttering in utter offence and bemusement.
> 
> Frankly the only thing stopping me from sending him a very angry e-mail is the fact that I know he'd probably entirely ignore it.


...So the friend I was talking to just told me that in reality, the other guy doesn't think I 'chose' to be gay.

He thinks I 'pretend' to be gay, to 'get attention from women'.

...What?

He then apparently went on to say that all my female friends with whom I can quite comfortably hold alarmingly flirty conversations are 'naive'. So apparently I say I like men so that I can get... women. Riiiight.


----------



## Butterfree

opaltiger said:


> I am and will always be deeply suspicious of any study that claims to have discovered an innate difference between the sexes. No experiment can be controlled well enough to remove entirely the effect of society.


Doesn't have to be innate! The study is exactly equally interesting if this is rooted in society.


----------



## opaltiger

Bachuru said:


> Doesn't have to be innate! The study is exactly equally interesting if this is rooted in society.


I was responding to Harlequin and his use of the word 'wired'.


----------



## Crazy Linoone

Zephyrous Castform said:


> ...So the friend I was talking to just told me that in reality, the other guy doesn't think I 'chose' to be gay.
> 
> He thinks I 'pretend' to be gay, to 'get attention from women'.
> 
> ...What?
> 
> He then apparently went on to say that all my female friends with whom I can quite comfortably hold alarmingly flirty conversations are 'naive'. So apparently I say I like men so that I can get... women. Riiiight.


They're just jealous.


----------



## ...

Harlequin said:


> Most people have never encountered asexuality outside of a scientific context before so it stands to reason that they'll associate it with asexual reproduction rather than "I don't have any interest in sex".


That's still really stupid. I mean, come on. Use a little logic; asexuals aren't bacteria. :/



Zephyrous Castform said:


> He then apparently went on to say that all my female friends with whom I can quite comfortably hold alarmingly flirty conversations are 'naive'. So apparently I say I like men so that I can get... women. Riiiight.


I've had a couple of guys make this assumption about me as well. About the only accurate statement is that it's easier to talk to girls. Idk. Still really illogical.


----------



## Harlequin

opaltiger said:


> I was responding to Harlequin and his use of the word 'wired'.


I suppose. I mean, it's entirely possible that any difference is totally due to society's influence, but it's entirely possible that it _isn't_ and that it actually is innate. Another similar article I read at the same time was about how there's a tendency for there to be physical differences between straight men/gay men and straight women/gay women and differences in response to certain stimuli. I think I might have linked that one in the old LGBT club thread but I'm not sure. 

I'm still looking for the article about women potentially having a preference rather than an orientation, too. I can't seem to find it any more, and nor can I remember where I was originally linked to it. It's frustrating. :(

Although I do agree with Butterfree -- it's interesting even if it's due to socialisation rather than genetics.


----------



## Zeph

Crazy Linoone said:


> They're just jealous.


Amusingly (Or not amusingly) enough, this is actually proven true - His ex-girlfriend is one of my closest friends, and when they were still together, he would get ridiculously jealous and angry whenever we so much as spoke to each other.


----------



## opaltiger

> That's still really stupid. I mean, come on. Use a little logic; asexuals aren't bacteria. :/


Not really! Ignorance isn't the same as stupidity.

Also, I'm a natsci, I'm allowed to nitpick: bacteria can reproduce sexually and things other than bacteria can reproduce asexually.


----------



## Harlequin

opaltiger said:


> Not really! Ignorance isn't the same as stupidity.
> 
> Also, I'm a natsci, I'm allowed to nitpick: bacteria can reproduce sexually and things other than bacteria can reproduce asexually.


In fact, the only animals that haven't _ever_ exhibited asexual reproduction (to the best of our knowledge) are mammals! Everyone else has at least _one_ species that can do it.


----------



## MentheLapin

Harlequin said:


> In fact, the only animals that haven't _ever_ exhibited asexual reproduction (to the best of our knowledge) are mammals! Everyone else has at least _one_ species that can do it.


The Komodo dragon is a reptile and they have been observed to reproduce via parthenogenesis...

Unless I have no idea what I'm on about. I have no idea what I'm on about, do I?


----------



## hopeandjoy

There's also a species of lesbian lizards called the New Mexico Whiptail. There are no males. At all. They fake mating and the bottom lizard lays a four eggs.

Have I mentioned it is my favorite species of lizard?

And people say that homosexuality is unnatural.


----------



## opaltiger

Yoshiya Kiryu said:


> The Komodo dragon is a reptile and they have been observed to reproduce via parthenogenesis...
> 
> Unless I have no idea what I'm on about. I have no idea what I'm on about, do I?


Uh, yeah, Harlequin said that mammals are the only class of animals to _not_ display some form of asexual reproduction. I'm not sure offhand if that's quite true, but certainly it is more widespread among animals than one might think.


----------



## MentheLapin

opaltiger said:


> Uh, yeah, Harlequin said that mammals are the only class of animals to _not_ display some form of asexual reproduction. I'm not sure offhand if that's quite true, but certainly it is more widespread among animals than one might think.


Oh, I misread. Ignore me :P


----------



## Harlequin

opaltiger said:


> Uh, yeah, Harlequin said that mammals are the only class of animals to _not_ display some form of asexual reproduction. I'm not sure offhand if that's quite true, but certainly it is more widespread among animals than one might think.


It used to be that, like, sharks and stuff didn't do it, but then a shark did it so I think it's limited to just mammals. Even if it isn't, asexual reproduction is a fairly common phenomenon.


----------



## Harlequin

Ketsu said:


> There's also a species of lesbian lizards called the New Mexico Whiptail. There are no males. At all. They fake mating and the bottom lizard lays a four eggs.
> 
> Have I mentioned it is my favorite species of lizard?
> 
> And people say that homosexuality is unnatural.


That lizard species is really interesting! We had a series of lectures a while back and one of the lectures talked about this species of lizard. What they actually do is fascinating. Depending on the levels of particular hormones in each lizard they engage in different types of behaviour. One lizard will "top" and the other will "bottom" and they swap throughout the breeding season thingy. It's cool.


----------



## Diz

Harlequin said:


> I suppose. I mean, it's entirely possible that any difference is totally due to society's influence, but it's entirely possible that it _isn't_ and that it actually is innate. Another similar article I read at the same time was about how there's a tendency for there to be physical differences between straight men/gay men and straight women/gay women and differences in response to certain stimuli. I think I might have linked that one in the old LGBT club thread but I'm not sure.


You mentioned it in the old thread when I brought up the subject of gaydars.

Speaking of which, I get the feeling that I getting better at telling when somebody should belong to this club, just from their mannerisms. Which may mean I'm stereotyping but works...


Okay, so I should probably explain that. It was a speech meet yesterday, and when we walked into the cafeteria, he was just sitting there talking and I could tell he was gay. He wasn't flamboyantly dressed, or acting in a way that screamed out his sexuality. I could just tell. A friend of mine, who's in college and was along with out team to judge, also, on his own, mentioned to me that the same guy might be gay. Not really stereotyping at all, just a feeling that was confirmed by another. I suppose the above was an unfortunate word choice.


----------



## Dinru

Diz said:


> You mentioned it in the old thread when I brought up the subject of gaydars.
> 
> Speaking of which, I get the feeling that I getting better at telling when somebody should belong to this club, just from their mannerisms. Which may mean I'm stereotyping but works...


_May_ mean you're stereotyping?


----------



## Harlequin

Starlit Ocean said:


> So they reproduce entirely based on hormones? Since they're all female, I don't see any other way. That's pretty fascinating, actually.


Here's a video! http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/01/5/l_015_01.html

The guy mentions in the video that the "lesbian" mating behaviour thing is a hypothesis, and that's true, but it _is_ true that they simulate mating behaviour based on relative levels of oestrogen and progesterone. They swap around every three weeks of the breeding season (and show behaviour similar to that of lizards with two sexes!).


----------



## Drowzee64

Dangit now I wish I could keep a pair as pets. :B


----------



## Diz

Both.


----------



## ...

Rule #34: Consider it invoked.


----------



## Minish

More verbal harassment today at the bus stop for being with my girlfriend! :D I'm pretty sure the things they were saying count as sexual harassment too, bonus.

They followed us all the way from school (about a quarter/half of a mile) :| Like, a group of about ten very tall and intimidating guys who kept throwing things, making remarks about our sex life - including the gem "I bet you want my cock". Dude, you might as well be _trying_ to turn me lesbian.

Meh. My mum's writing a letter to the school and is absolutely furious, so things should get better. This guy attacked me with his crutches though; it hurt. ):

/self-absorbed ramble


----------



## Harlequin

That's disgusting. I hope the school does something about that, and if it _doesn't_ I hope you go to the police. You shouldn't be forced to deal with that. 

Also, "I bet you want my cock"? Doesn't he understand what lesbianism _is_?


----------



## Minish

Ahah, thanks. If it gets much worse and the school does nothing, we may well go to the police. ):

I know right! We also constantly get called "lesbian" over and over again, as if we're not actually aware of it. I think I've been called dyke about _once_.


----------



## Diz

Its really stupid when people don't undrestand anything about LGBT people....Like guys talking about lesbians wanting their cocks, or how people are okay with gay guys as long as they don't hit on them.

Its like they think that gay people are sex crazed maniacs and that just because they have a penis, a gay person is going to attack thrm for it


----------



## Jolty

Cirrus said:


> I know right! We also constantly get called "lesbian" over and over again, as if we're not actually aware of it. I think I've been called dyke about _once_.


reminds me when people used to yell BISEXUAL at me
well done have a fucking medal son
but this was in year 8/9 so it was fucktarded little kids saying that but you're 17 how the hell are people still that stupid??

and yeah I second going to the police if school doesn't do shit (they never did for me hohoho)
or whacking them all with the crutches of that one guy


----------



## ...

Diz said:


> Its really stupid when people don't undrestand anything about LGBT people....Like guys talking about lesbians wanting their cocks, or how people are okay with gay guys as long as they don't hit on them.
> 
> Its like they think that gay people are sex crazed maniacs and that just because they have a penis, a gay person is going to attack thrm for it


And yet, there are _straight_ people out there who _are_ sex-crazed maniacs and you don't hear people giving them any crap about it. :/


----------



## Drowzee64

Starlit Ocean said:


> Either that's some sort of kinky fetish to watch two lesbian lizards going at it, or it's a biology project that may or may not go horribly right. ':|


XD I was just thinking it would be cool to be able to say I had lesbian pets.


----------



## MentheLapin

Diz said:


> Its like they think that gay people are sex crazed maniacs and that just because they have a penis, a gay person is going to attack thrm for it


Oh god. My friends just sort of started avoiding me for _thinking_ I was because apparently I'm going to rape them all. They'd probably explode if they knew it was true.


----------



## JackPK

Diz said:


> Its like they think that gay people are sex crazed maniacs and that just because they have a penis, a gay person is going to attack thrm for it


The funny thing is a lot of them probably secretly are (sex crazed, that is, not gay) and have no concept of other people not being as sex crazed as them.


----------



## hopeandjoy

"I'm alright with straight guys, as long as they don't hit on me."

I wonder how they would feel about that. Uh, if you're female and saying that anyway.

Speaking of homophobia, I have to sit in front of these pig-headed sophomores on the way to honor's school and it's a good day if they're just parroting Fox News.

On the bad day it's just, "Homophobic comment!" *laughing* "Comment making the homophobia worse!" *more laughing* "Repeat ad nausam!" *even more laughing*

Except it's more gayandmalebiphobia than homophobia because they are a-okay with lesbians and female bisexuals. *dryly* I wonder why.

Also to the person who said not to come out to my parents, but instead come out to my friends? Yeah, no. I live in the Bible Belt, so they are Catholic _at best_. Most are Southern Baptists. They all spew propaganda. One of them is a known tea partier. These are the _gifted_ kids. They aren't even really close friends. The only time it would come up would be to say "Hey! Don't say things like that! I'm bi and that offends me!"

I might not be a social person, but even I recognize social suicide.


----------



## Diz

Hey, I was raised Catholic and still believe in the faith, and also consider myself a Tea Partier. There are different shades of every color.


----------



## Lorem Ipsum

A depressing thought has come over me and it sounds silly but I honestly don't know. Next year I have my Year 11 prom. I'm gay. What the hell do I do?


----------



## MentheLapin

Lorem Ipsum said:


> A depressing thought has come over me and it sounds silly but I honestly don't know. Next year I have my Year 11 prom. I'm gay. What the hell do I do?


Either go with another guy [if you're both okay with that] or go with a female friend.


----------



## Lorem Ipsum

_I'm_ OK with going with another guy, but I'm sure that I'd get ridiculed for it. And the idea of finding another bi/gay person of my age I find extremely unlikely before that point. The whole going with a female friend thing wouldn't work either - pretty much everyone knows I'm gay. D:


----------



## Zeph

Lorem Ipsum said:


> A depressing thought has come over me and it sounds silly but I honestly don't know. Next year I have my Year 11 prom. I'm gay. What the hell do I do?


I had exactly the same problem - I just ended up going without a date! But it's okay to go with a female friend, honestly - even though they know you're gay, you're only going as friends! So what's the problem?


----------



## Jolty

Lorem Ipsum said:


> The whole going with a female friend thing wouldn't work either - pretty much everyone knows I'm gay. D:


why is that still a problem though? there was a gay dude at my school and I'm pretty sure he went to our prom with a female friend, no one thought anything of it

I /was/ gonna go to my year 13 prom with a guy friend... he flipped his shit when I said I wanted to wear a suit :| and nobody at school knew I was a guy anyway ugh. The reason I didn't go however was because ~*money*~ and I can't afford anything ever

I remember this one girl was like "...so you're wearing a /suit/ to prom?" at me, like I was some shit on the bottom of her shoe or something
this was the same bitch who kept practically molesting one of my (gay) friends all the goddamn time
no one likes you Helen OK

oh school
I almost miss it


----------



## Harlequin

Go with a boy, a girl or go on your own! You have three options _right there!!!_


----------



## Aobaru

Joining as bisexual (4 on the Kinsey scale).

Good news! The college I'm headed to in the Fall (Winthrop) has a LGBT club. So, I won't be lonely at college! :D


----------



## JackPK

Lorem Ipsum said:


> A depressing thought has come over me and it sounds silly but I honestly don't know. Next year I have my Year 11 prom. I'm gay. What the hell do I do?


Unless prom in Britain is exceedingly different from the US, just go with a group of other single friends (gender unimportant). The more of you there are, the less weird you'll feel going without a "date".


----------



## Dannichu

At my school leaver's ball, we all went uncoupled. Our prom was more a time to celebrate the six years we'd spent with each other (we were a fairly close yeargroup, especially in sixth form), rather than spending the whole time hanging off one person's arm. It was an absolutely great time; I danced with boys, girls and most of my teachers.
I confess I did wear a dress, but, if I may say so, I looked damn good. B)


----------



## ultraviolet

Lorem Ipsum said:
			
		

> _I'm_ OK with going with another guy, but I'm sure that I'd get  ridiculed for it. And the idea of finding another bi/gay person of my  age I find extremely unlikely before that point. The whole going with a  female friend thing wouldn't work either - pretty much everyone knows  I'm gay. D:


both take female friends, then meet up at the prom and dance with each other :D that's what one of my friends did


----------



## Elliekat

Agh, there's this one girl who sits in front of me in English class. She's always making these comments like "I don't believe in gay rights because what they're doing is wrong" and (about the single [openly, anyway] lesbian couple in our school) "Eww, I can't stand them! They make me so uncomfortable! Why do they let them be together [they worked backstage in our thespian's club play]?" Now, I normally let people have their own opinions without trying to argue (even on issues that I feel very strongly about such as this one), but any time someone else says something different, even something like "Well, I think the opposite because..." she just cuts them off and says something completely irrational like "But you can't think that because it's WRONG!" or "But can't you see that God hates stuff like that? It's so weird! Why would you like girls if you're a girl?"

AHHHHHH I HATE IT WHEN SHE SAYS STUFF LIKE THAT BUT I CAN'T ARGUE WITH HER AND ALSO I WANT TO AVOID A SCENE LIKE THE ABORTION DEBATE THAT HAPPENED IN ENGLISH IN WHICH SHE BASICALLY ATTACKED THE PRO-CHOICE PEOPLE /end shout


----------



## octobr

Prom is dumb herp. Just saying. I always went in a suit with a group of women 8|


----------



## ultraviolet

Elliekat said:
			
		

> "But can't you see that God hates stuff like that? It's so weird! Why would you like girls if you're a girl?"


I think what I hate the most about homophobia is that people often don't understand that homosexuality is _not about them. _Who somebody is attracted you shouldn't _matter _unless it is you.


----------



## Minish

...people actually go on dates to prom? For mine if you were dating someone at the time (which I wasn't) you'd "go" with them but _everyone_ went in mostly same-gender friendship groups. Maybe my prom was just weird.


----------



## Flora

I'm 99% sure that my prom makes opposite-gender dates mandatory.

But of course, in my case I _sorta_ have one so...

(and of course my female-crush does too. Though at the moment I'm seriously wondering what's up with her (non-legit) family members near my age that makes me crush on them. It would e great if it worked the other way too but oh well *shrugs*)


EDIT: So today my female-crush and I were going out bowling with a friend and her boyfriend. So since we were without dates we sorta went as a lesbian couple but not really. Cue moment that Flora realized how well she kept herself in the closet:



> Her: We'll be a lesbian couple! Which is funny, because neither of us rolll that way at all!
> Me: ...*thinks* just smile and nod, Rachel...


I actually just don't come out just because I don't need to.


----------



## Coloursfall

Er hi I've been meaning to join this, yes. Hrml. 

I've finally managed to work out all my sexuality/gender crap, so yay. One less thing to worry about, I think. I'm pansexual and...uh, genderqueer, I guess. It's hard to explain, hrf.  Lemmie try anyway!

I'm okay with being physically female most of the time, but it's like my brain is largely male, though I have some female parts in there, and don't mind being feminine sometimes. I don't want to permanently change my body, but I wouldn't mind being able to pass as male in public (which has been going sort of okay!)

I still get some 'oh god fuck my body I hate it I feel _wrong_' moments, but not as much as I did before figuring myself out. 

Now I just need to learn how to bind and I'm good. Ma won't let me get a chest binder thing so I'm stuck with bandages.

so um. hi! You guys are all awesome.


----------



## shy ♡

Big Red Cherry Bomb said:


> Er hi I've been meaning to join this, yes. Hrml.
> 
> I've finally managed to work out all my sexuality/gender crap, so yay. One less thing to worry about, I think. I'm pansexual and...uh, genderqueer, I guess. It's hard to explain, hrf.  Lemmie try anyway!
> 
> I'm okay with being physically female most of the time, but it's like my brain is largely male, though I have some female parts in there, and don't mind being feminine sometimes. I don't want to permanently change my body, but I wouldn't mind being able to pass as male in public (which has been going sort of okay!)
> 
> I still get some 'oh god fuck my body I hate it I feel _wrong_' moments, but not as much as I did before figuring myself out.
> 
> Now I just need to learn how to bind and I'm good. Ma won't let me get a chest binder thing so I'm stuck with bandages.
> 
> so um. hi! You guys are all awesome.


Why do you need your mom's permission? You're 19, no? Can't you like, er, set up a paypal account and just _buy a binder_...? Trust me, it's much more effective and way less painful than ace bandages.

I just realized the sick irony of me saying 'trust me' while my user title says 'trust me I'm a psychopath'. Hrrr.


----------



## Coloursfall

Hyde said:


> Why do you need your mom's permission? You're 19, no? Can't you like, er, set up a paypal account and just _buy a binder_...? Trust me, it's much more effective and way less painful than ace bandages.
> 
> I just realized the sick irony of me saying 'trust me' while my user title says 'trust me I'm a psychopath'. Hrrr.


My problem is, I have no job, and no money, so that sort of puts a damper on getting things myself :c


----------



## shy ♡

Big Red Cherry Bomb said:


> My problem is, I have no job, and no money, so that sort of puts a damper on getting things myself :c


Possibly you can try setting up a donate-thing on tumblr, or accepting commissions (via tumblr or deviantart)? You might get more commissions if you mention it's for a cause. Since binders don't cost _that_ much you wouldn't need too much money, just a bit, really.


----------



## Stormecho

...I kind of would like to bind my breasts, but I don't know how to go about it, or what a breast binder even looks like or what. x_x *fails* I just find them inconvenient lumps of fat and nerves, and too big to be comfortable. >> And sensitive and _eugh_ in general. [/acerant]

On the late subject of prom, I'm either going to go wearing pants - dresses are uncomfortable :/ - or not go at all and save up for a laptop or something instead.


----------



## shy ♡

This is a good resource on binding.


----------



## Zora of Termina

Hello.
My name is Zora, and I might be gay.

Erm… Let me try to explain. At the very beginning of the first thread, I joined as mostly straight, but possibly bisexual. I posted a grand total of once. And I never really had any problems with it; Y’know, find a woman attractive occasionally but other than that live my life like everyone else around me at the time.

Fast-forward to sometime last year. I started getting more and more into the whole gay rights thing, and at the same time, I started getting less and less… into men. It would really depend on the day, what I was into. Some days I could pass as straight as anyone else I know, then other days… yeah.

And I still do that, sometimes, although recently it’s been pretty consistently women I’ve been into and I find myself feeling more like I’m a lesbian than ever. I’ve told maybe three or four people about this, all internet friends, and I don’t have the nerve to come out in real life because while I know Mom would be pretty okay with it, Dad would try to “fix” me or something because he’s one of those “THE BIBLE SAYS IT’S NOT RIGHT SO IT’S NOT RIGHT” sort of people.

And so here I am, trying to explain my case and probably wording everything horribly and confusingly and not helping my case at all and I am really bad at this can you tell.


----------



## Wargle

Might as well join here, I've came out on here about being Bi, and kinda got half way found out irl.

OK STORY TIME.
SO people didn't know I was bi, just straight and thought me and my Girlfriend Emily were just really clofe BFFs and stuff until one day in the hall, she screwed about a year of hiding it by _kissing my cheek_ with like, thirty kids around. So panicked screams ensue as everyone floods away from us to not catch 'our gay'. So eventually we kinda made people think it was just one of those EEEEEP IM SO HAPPY I'LL KISS THE NEAREST PERSON moments for Emily.





And for prom, we're going as friends, though we'll probably come out so we can just get it over with and we don't want to be the ones when's everyone's kissing just standing around and staring.


----------



## Harlequin

You're like ... twenty, what sort of place are you going to that people have those reactions?! o.o


----------



## Wargle

Two words. Public School ((thank god I graduate this year but oh dear thats far away))


----------



## nastypass

Wargle said:


> Two words. Public School ((thank god I graduate this year but oh dear thats far away))


... but you're 20, why're you still in school, out of curiosity?


----------



## Wargle

I failed fourth Grade and had to retake it.


----------



## Elliekat

So I think I'm definitely still figuring myself out; I know for sure that I'm asexual, but where I said before that I'm hetero-romantic I'm still unsure about. I thought I was definitely hetero-romantic, but now I can't stop thinking about one of my best friends. Every time I see her I always think about how pretty she is, and I sometimes feel like I want to kiss her, but I'm pretty sure she's completely straight, and I thought I was too (at least romantically) until now and agh why does all of this have to crop up _now_ it's so freaking _confusing_ _ahhhhhh_


----------



## Flora

Elliekat said:


> Every time I see her I always think about how pretty she is, and I sometimes feel like I want to kiss her, but I'm pretty sure she's completely straight, and I thought I was too (at least romantically) until now and agh why does all of this have to crop up _now_ it's so freaking _confusing_ _ahhhhhh_


Oh, honey, that situation _sucks_. Been there, done that, _still_ doing that. (Hell, I think I realized I liked her when I heard her singing. Everytime she sings I get this weird feeling and it didn't exactly help that she was _the freaking Fairy Godmother.)_ It's even worse when both of you have boyfriends :(


----------



## Harlequin

Are you quite sure you're asexual if you think she's pretty and you want to kiss her? I mean, I'm by no means an expert on asexuality (in fact I find it completely incomprehensible and I don't get it at all) but I'd think that if you think she's pretty and you want to kiss her, it might be prudent to re-evaluate your sexual inclinations.

'Cause, like, kissing and prettiness are usually things sexual people think about their potential lovers. IDK.


----------



## shy ♡

Harlequin said:


> Are you quite sure you're asexual if you think she's pretty and you want to kiss her? I mean, I'm by no means an expert on asexuality (in fact I find it completely incomprehensible and I don't get it at all) but I'd think that if you think she's pretty and you want to kiss her, it might be prudent to re-evaluate your sexual inclinations.
> 
> 'Cause, like, kissing and prettiness are usually things sexual people think about their potential lovers. IDK.


I don't claim to understand it, but I _do_ know several aces who enjoy kissing but don't want sex. They sort of disconnect the two. Again I don't feel it myself so I can't explain it better, but the thing is basically they don't want sex but enjoy kissing.


----------



## Diz

Hyde said:


> I don't claim to understand it, but I _do_ know several aces who enjoy kissing but don't want sex. They sort of disconnect the two. Again I don't feel it myself so I can't explain it better, but the thing is basically they don't want sex but enjoy kissing.


Yeah, because aces aren't into the physical aspect of any relationship, so no sex, but kissing is more romantic than physical.

Or maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about.


----------



## Harlequin

Hyde said:


> I don't claim to understand it, but I _do_ know several aces who enjoy kissing but don't want sex. They sort of disconnect the two. Again I don't feel it myself so I can't explain it better, but the thing is basically they don't want sex but enjoy kissing.





Diz said:


> Yeah, because aces aren't into the physical aspect of any relationship, so no sex, but kissing is more romantic than physical.
> 
> Or maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about.


I guess, but like, I've always associated kissing as something that yes, it might be romantic, but it's also sexual. I mean. I'm not talking about a chaste peck on the cheek here. It's like, sex can be romantic, too. Where's the line? 

Maybe it's just that I don't get asexuality, being a sexual being myself, but I've always seen kissing (again, not like a peck on the cheek kissing) as sexual as well as romantic.


----------



## Elliekat

Yeah, I've always seen kissing as not a sexual thing, unless you're doing it in an extremely sexual way, which I wouldn't want. There's kind of a fine line in my mentality that's kinda hard to explain XD But I would kiss someone, but once it crossed that line I would start getting uncomfortable.

Sorry if I don't make any sense :<


----------



## MentheLapin

I have a question for you guys: is 14 too young to come out/be gay? Idk, I planned on telling the remainder of friends that I haven't tomorrow, but I was told that it'd be a bad idea. Opinions?


----------



## Dinru

14 is definitely not too young to be gay (despite what some people say) and therefore it's not too young to come out. If you feel comfortable with the idea, then as far as age goes, that shouldn't be a problem.


----------



## ...

Yoshiya Kiryu said:


> I have a question for you guys: is 14 too young to come out/be gay? Idk, I planned on telling the remainder of friends that I haven't tomorrow, but I was told that it'd be a bad idea. Opinions?


Not at all. Sexuality questioning can start as early as the onset of puberty, so 14 is definitely _not_ too young. _Too_ young would be like 9 or 10. I'd say the worst thing in this idea is that you may or may not come out to someone who you'd eventually regret coming out to. But that's your decision to decide who's worth coming out to.


----------



## opaltiger

I believe sexuality is fluid throughout the teenage years, and therefore it is very silly to label yourself as _anything_ until you've well and truly got through puberty. I also think it's very silly to label yourself as anything afterwards, but that's a different matter.


----------



## Harlequin

You can come out whenever you like, but most people will probably think "haha, yeah right, it's just a phase" until you reach the end of puberty. It's a bit of a double standard there really, since a child of eight or nine years old who expresses heterosexual desire never gets the "it's just a phase" treatment, but it is what it is.

If you like boys/girls and you know you like boys/girls then ... you know you like boys/girls. I knew when I was around twelve or thirteen, but I was prevented from fully accepting it for quite some time after. If you've done so then more's the power to you, really.


----------



## Crazy Linoone

I know this is really old and off topic but



Bachuru said:


> I read about a vaguely similar study (measuring erections in men and lubrication in women) showing people of different genders and sexualities images of 1) a heterosexual couple having sex, 2) a lesbian couple having sex, 3) a gay male couple having sex, 4) a naked woman walking on a beach, 5) a naked man walking on a beach, and 6) chimpanzees having sex. If I remember correctly, men roughly followed the rule that they were aroused if it involved someone they were attracted to; women, on the other hand, were generally aroused by the sexual images in general (even if they involved chimpanzees or only people they weren't attracted to) and not by the non-sexual naked people walking on a beach regardless of whether they were attracted to them or not.
> 
> I wouldn't exactly interpret that as women tending more towards bisexual, unless you also wanted to say women tend more towards bestiality. It's just that the brain's 'let's get aroused now' rule of thumb involves 'there is sex going on' more than 'there are naked women/men'.


Is this what you're talking about?


----------



## Butterfree

No, that sounds... completely different. o.O All they have in common as far as I can tell is being studies involving women and sex.


----------



## Michi

Yoshiya Kiryu said:


> I have a question for you guys: is 14 too young to come out/be gay? Idk, I planned on telling the remainder of friends that I haven't tomorrow, but I was told that it'd be a bad idea. Opinions?


Nope - I'm 14, I'm out to all my friends but I don't like them to make it a big deal publicly - most people other than them don't know.

Anyway, my school today started a "Gay-Straight Alliance" which anyone can join if they are "sick of homophobia and discrimination."
While I see the point of this, I think the "Alliance" is actually counter-productive and will just get more people physically harmed over they're orientation, or in some cases their supposed orientaton. Everyone who joins will automatically be labeled gay by all the junior and senior guys, the same guys who'll be beating the members up.
What NEEDS to be done is that a zero-tolerance bullying policy (for QUILTBAG, race, gender, and all other purposes) should be imposed.


----------



## Eloi

Zodiac said:


> Nope - I'm 14, I'm out to all my friends but I don't like them to make it a big deal publicly - most people other than them don't know.
> 
> Anyway, my school today started a "Gay-Straight Alliance" which anyone can join if they are "sick of homophobia and discrimination."
> While I see the point of this, I think the "Alliance" is actually counter-productive and will just get more people physically harmed over they're orientation, or in some cases their supposed orientaton. Everyone who joins will automatically be labeled gay by all the junior and senior guys, the same guys who'll be beating the members up.
> What NEEDS to be done is that a zero-tolerance bullying policy (for QUILTBAG, race, gender, and all other purposes) should be imposed.


I agree with those measures. You have my uh...vote?


----------



## surskitty

Zero-tolerance bullying policies unfortunately rarely work.  

I think the GSA at my high school was fairly successful?  As far as I know, no one was bullied over it or anything.  And there was something approaching a safe space.  Just make sure you've got at least one teacher on your side who'll intervene if anything happens.


----------



## JackPK

Zodiac said:


> Anyway, my school today started a "Gay-Straight Alliance" which anyone can join if they are "sick of homophobia and discrimination."
> While I see the point of this, I think the "Alliance" is actually counter-productive and will just get more people physically harmed over they're orientation, or in some cases their supposed orientaton. Everyone who joins will automatically be labeled gay by all the junior and senior guys, the same guys who'll be beating the members up.
> What NEEDS to be done is that a zero-tolerance bullying policy (for QUILTBAG, race, gender, and all other purposes) should be imposed.


I agree with you on the zero-tolerance bullying policy, but you're looking at the GSA in too much of the short term. Ultimately what a GSA is supposed to do is make out-of-the-closet gays in schools gradually more accepted, "normal", etc... essentially remove them as bullying targets. My old high school, for instance, instated a GSA this year that's been giving student-taught seminars to teachers on how to deal properly with LGBT issues that arise in the classroom (bullying and such), and surprisingly (for Texas, at least) they've been sponsored by at least the principal and I think possibly the district as well.


----------



## Elliekat

Hmm, my school has a GSA. Not knowing too many other QUILTBAG people (maybe... three?) I'm not entirely sure if it's working or not. Once my mom got kind of mad that it existed at our school though, which made me a bit upset.


----------



## Michi

My problem with this is, it's not going to work_ here_, and it won't work _yet_. In a few years, when the current problematic group of junior and senior students is gone, it might have a chance. However, having observed the upperclassmen, it's fairly obvious they will be a problem for some students. Specifically those who ever step foot in the locker rooms for any period of time greater than 40 seconds.
"My friend said he'd be fine with a gay guy in the locker room, and he got his a** beat."
I've heard that story 8 different times about 8 different students just this year, and that's why I'm going to take math resource to get out of Phys Ed. Even though I'm the best math student in my grade.

Plus, there's a total of 4 totally-out QUILTBAG students in our entire school. One's a senior who's the extremely popular band guy, one's a sophomore, and the last two are freshmen - and those two are a guy and girl who are in a relationship and act like they never came out. So basically, there would be one "out" person that would benefit from the idea of promoting acceptance and I'm estimating a maximum of 20-30 people who might become comfortable with themselves who aren't out completely - myself included.

Of course, there could be countless straight girls who join. Some who actually support QUILTBAG students, and some who unfortunately will be doing it for extra attention.

EDIT FOR THOUGHTS:
I don't think it matters for the short term as much - nobody deserves to endure what the original members will inevitably endure.
Perhaps if they kept the GSA but also used a stronger anti-bullying policy at the same time?


----------



## surskitty

As I said, get at least one teacher on your side.  If you're worried about the PE teachers being useless, then tell whoever your staff contact is that you're concerned and see if they'll do something about it.


----------



## JackPK

Zodiac said:


> My problem with this is [...] it won't work _yet_.


This is going to be true in every generation* of students until somebody does something about it. I'm not going to preach total proactiveness because I'm very bad about putting things off, letting other people handle things, etc... but as far as civil rights and acceptance go, we have to get out there and endure the older generation's wallops so that the younger generation will see the injustice and correct it.

Yes, it sucks for the first several generations. But it has to suck for _some_body in order for things to get better for the people after that.

*I use this term extremely loosely throughout this whole post. Maybe "wave" might be slightly better.

Surskitty/James/Enekoiru is right about the teacher. My old high school's GSA was lucky enough to have a lesbian teacher to sponsor/support/host them. I'm guessing most high schools won't have an LGBT teacher, but you can try to at least find a teacher who seems especially liberal-minded/accepting, perhaps?


----------



## surskitty

Most schools won't have _out_ teachers.  That doesn't mean anything about their quiltbag statuses.  But more to the point, it doesn't matter if whoever you have as a sponsor is LGBT as long as they're willing to be your advocate whenever you need them.  Talk to whoever's sponsoring the GSA; they're an obvious candidate.


----------



## Nope

I watched Loving Annabelle yesterday, and although the end was kind of disappointing, it was overall wonderful. <3

Any suggestions on QUILTBAG movies?


On another note, I've been crushing on another girl in my class the last two months, and I've finally gathered up the courage to try and befriend her.

Also, coming out has been no problem at all (although I came out on facebook a few months ago no one has commented. I don't know if that's good or bad). :p

My birthday tomorrow, yay!


----------



## Dannichu

Oooh, I liked Loving Annabelle, too!

Right. movies with non-disappointing endings. Er.

Shamin Sarif's two films, I Can't Think Straight and The World Unseen are both pretty good.
Imagine Me & You is just adorable.
Grey Matters is pretty okay?
But I'm A Cheerleader is fun
Better Than Chocolate was pretty good but I watched it years ago and don't remember much.
If Walls Could Talk 2 is three short stories, all of them good. The first is cripplingly sad, but they get happier.
Saving Face is rather excellent

If you don't mind depressing/unfulfilling endings, the following are varying degrees of good:

Lost and Delirious
The Hours 
Mulholland Drive
Kissing Jessica Stein
The Children's Hour

Probably more I'm forgetting off both lists.


----------



## octobr

MA VIE EN ROSE it is so damn cute and sad and sweet.

ALSO BEST MUSICAL EVER AND IT IS QUEER AS FUCK: WERE THE WORLD MINE. Midsummer Night's Dream except gay.


----------



## opaltiger

Obligatory shout-out to Queer as Folk (which is admittedly a miniseries, not a film, but still).


----------



## JackPK

opaltiger said:


> Obligatory shout-out to Queer as Folk (which is admittedly a miniseries, not a film, but still).


And a full-on TV series in America. I only saw like the first three seasons and they were pretty good, not excellent, but pretty good.

Although the chick that played the blonde lesbian (Lindsey?) is still the actress who plays every lead female role whenever I dream about making movies. I have absolutely no idea why.


----------



## shy ♡

QAF had too much sex ; ; it was like entirely written on sex. Ahg. My poor innocent eyes.

Anyhow. Transamerica is awesome. Victor/Victoria is both a musical and fucking _awesome_. The Rocky Horror Picture Show has an arguably happy ending, uh. Well the ending isn't really _happy_ so much as it is trippy. Uhm... that's all I can think of for now, I usually prefer downer endings.


----------



## JackPK

Hyde said:


> QAF had too much sex ; ; it was like entirely written on sex. Ahg. My poor innocent eyes.


Well, I watched it when I was 15 and hadn't discovered the easy ways to get halfway-decent-quality internet porn. lol


----------



## shy ♡

Jack_the_PumpkinKing said:


> Well, I watched it when I was 15 and hadn't discovered the easy ways to get halfway-decent-quality internet porn. lol


I really really really _really_ didn't need to know that ; ;


----------



## opaltiger

Jack_the_PumpkinKing said:


> And a full-on TV series in America. I only saw like the first three seasons and they were pretty good, not excellent, but pretty good.
> 
> Although the chick that played the blonde lesbian (Lindsey?) is still the actress who plays every lead female role whenever I dream about making movies. I have absolutely no idea why.


Do not speak to me about QAF US. QAF US does not exist. Clear? Clear.


----------



## Harlequin

QaF US isn't actually that bad. It helps if you look at is as something _different_ from QaF UK, and appreciate the different cultures and mindsets involved whilst making it.

... or possibly I've been swayed by hot actors. That's been known to happen.

ALSO! Over at SomeCommunities we have a quiltbag cinema thread currently going on. You can't join the forums unless you're over eighteen, but you can view the thread as much as you want. It's got some good stuff on there!


----------



## Minish

If we're suggesting TV shows now, check out Lip Service! It's basically a less glamorous version of The L Word, set in Glasgow. :b I remember it being pretty good, and its been renewed for a second series.


----------



## Dannichu

From what I saw of Lip Service (the first three episodes?), it wasn't as bad as The L Word (of which I've seen the first... five episodes?), but still not-very-good. The writing was poor and I found most of the characters unlikable, but I sort of don't want to criticize it because all the negative reviews I've found of it were really homophobic (not in a "I find this morally reprehensible" way, more "Why are all these women lesbians? There aren't this many lesbians in the real world!!!!", which is just as eyeroll-inducing).

Sugar Rush is a pretty sweet show, though.

ETA: Oh, that pun was _genuinely_ unintentional.


----------



## Flora

COMPLETELY UNRELATED TO THE TOPIC AT HAND BUT

So my friends were talking about how guys like girl-on-girl-action (which is a complete issue in and of itself) and relating to her point, one (whom I have a crush on, whoop-de-do) stated that apparently my boyfriend asked her if she liked me.

I heard this and wanted to start laughing at the irony.


----------



## Diz

Flora, you can't tell us a story like that and leave out the ending. What did she tell Him? Does she like like That? Could she see herself with You? If anything, it'd be a good (or crappy, depending) way to come out to her and confess your feelings.

And actually, I'm kinda in the same boat. I have a sight crush on a friend of mine. Who doesn't know about my bisexuality....


----------



## Flora

Diz said:


> Flora, you can't tell us a story like that and leave out the ending. What did she tell Him? Does she like like That? Could she see herself with You? If anything, it'd be a good (or crappy, depending) way to come out to her and confess your feelings.
> 
> And actually, I'm kinda in the same boat. I have a sight crush on a friend of mine. Who doesn't know about my bisexuality....


Yeah, I haven't come out to anyone, either. It would be a bit awkward.

Oh, and I think the answer was no but a) I'm not sure if she even answered the question (it was in passing, and I was far more focused on _why my boyfriend even asked that question_), and b) she has a boyfriend.


----------



## Sireafi

Baku said:


> Any suggestions on QUILTBAG movies?


I recently saw Mysterious Skin (starring a young Joseph Gordon-Levitt) and I loved it. It has the appeal of coming-of-age films while still clutching onto adult themes.


----------



## Vladimir Putin's LJ

Sireafi said:


> I recently saw Mysterious Skin (starring a young Joseph Gordon-Levitt) and I loved it. It has the appeal of coming-of-age films while still clutching onto adult themes.


This is a good film but it has some really strong moments so if you're looking for fun times YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED :|


----------



## Nope

Wow, thank you for all the great suggestions, I'll watch some of these when I have the time.

Uhm, anyways. School is awesome. My crush and I are talking more and more, and she voluntarily sits down besides me at class, quite often as well! Plus, in Norwegian class, we were talking and I said "oh, well" in English (mind you, I am Norwegian) and sometime later she said: "did you say oh, well?" me: "yeah" "How cute." And then she smiled. She called me cute, or at least something I said cute.

That was so awesome. I love this. This... this is really great. We're, like, friends! :O


----------



## Leaftail

Ooh, a new (in the sense that I've never been here before, that is) LGBT club...

Back in good ol' summer 2010, for about a week before I turned gay, I was actually bisexual until I decided that I only liked dudes. Well, for the first time since then, I think I'm starting to show feelings for girls again.


----------



## Aobaru

Starlit Ocean said:


> I'm jumping to conclusions, I know, but this is really a once-in-a-blue-moon type of thing and it kind of makes my heart flutter thinking that maybe I'm not entirely alone.


Does your school have an LGBT club?


----------



## Leaftail

Aobaru said:


> Does your school have an LGBT club?


A _school _ with an LGBT club? *laughs uncontrollably* my hope in humanity would be restored if our school had one, but that's never gonna happen.

if your school has one, please tell me so i can transfer.


----------



## Diz

Kurusu said:


> I turned gay


lolwat?

And schools do have LGBT clubs. Or at least a GSA.


----------



## ...

Aobaru said:


> Does your school have an LGBT club?


It's a community college. About the only club it has is one for psychology majors. :/ So I'm afraid the answer is no, but I'd gladly join one if someone decided to set it up.


----------



## Leaftail

Diz said:


> lolwat?


lolwat?


----------



## Diz

You can't just turn gay.


----------



## Leaftail

...Fine. Before I _realized_ I was gay. Happy now?


----------



## Harlequin

Starlit Ocean said:


> It's a community college. About the only club it has is one for psychology majors. :/ So I'm afraid the answer is no, but I'd gladly join one if someone decided to set it up.


Start it?


----------



## ...

Harlequin said:


> Start it?


I'm not even going to contemplate that until I know of at least one other LGBT person in the school (Like, confirmed). If I were to start it now, can you imagine how embarrassing that would be if no one joined? Especially considering I live in the deep south of the U.S.?


----------



## Harlequin

That's what everyone else is thinking. _Someone_ has to start it, why not you?


----------



## Flazeah

I'm just posting this here because I, er... need a place to post it. Yeah.

 I was drunk last night - it was a lot of fun; I remember things and didn't feel sick or anything, so yeah - and while I was pretty much just tipsy and my male friend that I like was also tipsy - but only slightly - he confessed that when he first met me, he liked me, but then I became "too much of a friend" and the feelings were gone. At that point and as I got more drunk, I began to question him, and asked him what he would say if I liked him or something, and he said he didn't know, but later, he said he wouldn't like me back or something. That's possibly because I was quite drunk then, so he didn't want me to try anything. Um.

 I don't actually know whether he expected me to remember this, but I suspect he did because he didn't know how drunk we were going to get; for all he knew, we could have just stayed tipsy the whole time. I don't know whether he got that I like him - I didn't actually say I did; just questioned him. Anyway. The point is, I'm going to tell him at some point that I like him, and see where that goes. I'm not even sure I want a relationship with him; I pretty much just want to tell him I quite like him.

 Haha, that night was fun. My female friend tried to make out with me and she was only about as drunk as I was; or less. I could still think quite coherently in a way, but was pretty drunk. It was a lot of fun. She kissed the other guy we were with several times - there was me, the guy I like, her and a friend of the first guy.

 I think we talked slightly too freely about who my female crush is specifically in front of my guy friend's friend, but hey.


----------



## ...

Harlequin said:


> That's what everyone else is thinking. _Someone_ has to start it, why not you?


I'm not much of one to take that kind of initiative. I at least want to find someone else who is LGBT and see if they have the same idea.


----------



## Saith

This looks promising~


----------



## ...

That's good. Although you don't necessarily need a church to have any kind of marriage/civil partnership anyway, as long as you've got a certified justice of the peace conducting the actual wedding.


----------



## Harlequin

You don't need a church, no, but the point was that the current law _doesn't allow_ religious elements in civil partnership ceremonies. 

ALSO

YO HO SEBASTIAN!

gay pirates <3


----------



## octobr

SO APPARENTLY on wednesday my school's mysterious gsa (i swear they only exist sometimes) is having a trans speaker come in! Excite.


----------



## Harlequin

trans speaker

it makes me think of a speaker that used to be a microphone

(continue on with seriousness, i just wanted to share)


----------



## Flora

People who know I'm bi: One
People I have willingly come out to: Zero

...don't you just love it when your older sister figures out that no, when you told her you were straight you weren't positive, and then correctly guess who you have a crush on?

Wow. Just...wow.

EDIT: Oh dude she's a QUILTBAG too? (heteromantic asexual)


----------



## ...

>


The brilliantly satirical work of a genius someone posted on Serebiiforum's QUILTBAG club from somewhere unspecified.


----------



## MentheLapin

Starlit Ocean said:


> Obviously gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.


In actual fact, there was a documentary over here last year about two gay men using a surrogate to have three or so children. The idea of gay parents was actually kind of an influence - when one of the younger children was asked if he would be gay when he were older, he said yes. I admit that the rest either said no or had the standard "if it happens, it happens" answer, but the influence is still there.


----------



## Dannichu

Yeah, but just about every kid raised in a heterosexual family thinks they're going to marry someone of the opposite sex when they're older. Then a bunch of them realize they're not heterosexual and it doesn't happen. The heterosexual environment doesn't make anyone straight.

Also, who asks a small child if they're going to be gay when they grow up? What does that possibly achieve?


----------



## MentheLapin

Dannichu said:


> Yeah, but just about every kid raised in a heterosexual family thinks they're going to marry someone of the opposite sex when they're older. Then a bunch of them realize they're not heterosexual and it doesn't happen. The heterosexual environment doesn't make anyone straight.
> 
> Also, who asks a small child if they're going to be gay when they grow up? What does that possibly achieve?


But the heterosexual environment shows children that heterosexuality is generally the 'done thing'; the idea of different sexuality is not even shown to children as they grow up. In this way, the homosexual environment shows the children that homosexuality is a lot more common than it actually is.


----------



## octobr

So for once I'm going to take the soapbox here yo

Discovered yesterday that I am, in fact, as out of tune with my body as I thought I was. Went to the doctor yesterday and had to go through a pap smear. A fuckin vag test. It was _not fun._ I actually started crying like a wuss, but the worst part was that mom just thought it was for stupid petty reasons, and, hello, I'm sitting there in a fucking guy's shirt and guy's jeans and guy's underwear and a guy's haircut, certainly me freaking out has nothing to do with the fact that I was surprised with a procedure that shoves in my face that I'm female. Urgh. (I made her take me to the pet store, after. I didn't get a lollipop or anythin.)

This was not made better that mom reminded me quite bluntly this morning "but you ~are~ a girl," and then not two minutes later called me Matt. I AM SO CONFUSE. :c 

tl;dr angst whine wail


----------



## Vladimir Putin's LJ

Yoshiya Kiryu said:


> But the heterosexual environment shows children that heterosexuality is generally the 'done thing'; the idea of different sexuality is not even shown to children as they grow up. In this way, the homosexual environment shows the children that homosexuality is a lot more common than it actually is.


Pleasantly surprised at how normal the Daily Mail article is.

And yeah, of course gay parents will expose their children to more homosexuality than "conventional" straight families, but only a little, because the children still live in a completely heteronormative world. Almost all the couples you see on television, magazines, ads, books are heterosexual. It's not like the parents can enlist their children in Elton John's Gay School for Gays (Gay) so after the first few years of their life the kids will be exposed to non-stop heterosexual examples.

Anyway unless the parents are retarded they're not going to pretend everyone is gay.

EDIT: Verne, sorry you had that happen :( I don't get parents' mindsets either. My mother actually made me wear a dress for our school party last year and I cried like a huge pussy in the car, at which point she said OKAY SHALL WE GO HOME SO YOU CAN CHANGE?? so did she just want to see my tears or what.
d-did the puppies in the store make you feel better.


----------



## shy ♡

I think parents just like to deny that it's a thing at all. My parents do the same and it pisses me off to no ends, because I don't do what they say, I just storm off and yell at them or whatever, and they _still don't get it_. Is it seriously so hard to connect the dots?


----------



## octobr

> Elton John's Gay School for Gays (Gay)


_I have found my life's mission_


And yes. The puppies did make me feel better. They were little chihuahua/shih tzu mutts and got the best traits from both and were adorable. 


I mean, I just... I would prefer it if mom either outright denied it or accepted it, some solid absolute, because having to try and read that woobly reaction to me being I don't know me is _really confusing._ 

Also I just really don't know how she didn't get why I was upset. DURRR. 

Meanwhile it seems that college people have 0 problems getting it because I tell them to call me Matt and they go 'oh do you want us to call you he, too, no prob.' Which is pretty boss.


----------



## Jolty

my parents never bug me into "accepting" I'm a girl or anything, I've been pretty masculine all my life and they never did sod all back then either so trying to now would be daft

one of my friends does this however :| he's invited me to this thing and since it's formal wear he was all "OH AND YOU'RE NOT GONNA WEAR A SUIT LOL"
yeah Corey well /watch it happen/!!!

I'm not sure if anyone at uni actually realised I was trans, besides the two people I told... they weren't expecting it at all though :B
my flatmates might've known about it, since like every time I /didn't/ go collect the post I would /always/ get shit addressed to my old name. arghfjhdkh

also you know what mega sucks? when the gender clinic people tell you that you might have to wait even longer for hormones because your social anxiety needs sorting first!!


----------



## octobr

your friend needs a good smack in the face to knock some sense in him, eh.

No what mega sucks is not having a gender clinic yo. egh I wanna get on hormones cept I don't even know how I'd. begin. alas. Education is a mite more important for me I guess.


----------



## shy ♡

As far as I know, you begin by seeing a gender therapist. I don't know if I'll ever be able to go on hormones, at least according to my incredibly supportive parents I definitely will never be able to because you know, testosterone is incredibly unhealthy on its own, let alone messing with my medications and bipolar! I might _die_. (Mentioning that living without T is bound to drive me crazy doesn't seem to help.)

But. Yeah. Mostly it bugs me that my parents think they have a say in the matter. Because they don't. So they should shut up. :| (Also Verne the people at your school sound awesome.)


----------



## Bluberry Bat

Hahaha oh parents and gender identity /what a hoot huh/.

But, seriously, I'm ready to murder my father; and I say that as straight-faced as possible. The ignorance and bigotry he presents is astounding, he's lately taking up flat out /mocking/ me, it's transparent as day as he's watching me have breakdowns from his taunts and has a huge grin on his faced, acting like I ~amuse~ him.
"You need to learn to deal with it", what the actual fuck, does it look like I'm not 'dealing with it', if I wasn't 'dealing with it' I'd have already tossed myself into the goddamn Hudson.
"Well other transpeople deal with it", No, they really don't, but they put on a façade better than I do.
"What and you think we [Him and my mum] don't have problems?!", What the fuck's that supposed to mean? You deal with a crappy economy, shaky relations with people, and a troubled child. You know, like NEARLY EVERYONE ELSE. Try stacking that on top of a mind so at odds with its body it can't sleep, speak, sometimes move or eat without trying to tear itself in two, and come back to me about your problems.
"Well maybe if you used *given name* you'd have better luck finding a job", yes just like all the perfect cisgender folks who just scoop up the jobs no problems in this gods forsaken little town with all of one spot for every ten people.
*Mind you invoking so-called given name results in a wince from me every time and he bloody well knows this.
"Well you're fine with using *given name* to get your meds!", well actually I'm /not/ considering I nearly have a complete breakdown every time I go into any sort of office or receive any sort of 'official documentation'.

My mum is at least /slightly/ better, trying to keep him off my back - but still uses improper pronouns and will throw up that OH IT'S ~HARD~ shields. No, no it's not, what do you not get, you add an extra damned 'S' and it makes a world of difference but NO THAT'S TOO HARD or WE HAVEN'T HAD TIME TO ADJUST [they've had three and a half years now].
And I can't do a damn thing about it, because I can't use the cars, can't find a job, there's no damned money, and they won't do a damned thing to maybe help that out a bit even though it's always their story ~GET A JOB~ ~WE NEED MONEY~ yada yada.
At least my shrink is trying to help me possibly apply for disability because gods know I need /something/ at this point but since I have no ride to the damned SS office a load of good that does.
I should also mention that if I could work together the money for a name change, I ALSO have documentation that will allow me to officially change my gender on my ID. But if I DON'T get the name change it gets renewed under that 'given name' and that's just damned peachy I couldn't wait to run into a backwoods cop or shop clerk to question /that one/.

ugh ranting I know I'm better off than a lot of people but for fucks sake I'm so on the brink with this crap.


----------



## shy ♡

Bluberry, that's really, really crap. Seriously. Gah, is there no possibility of your shrink possibly helping you find work, or some support from the government? Try asking for more help, in terms of living arrangements, etc., maybe? If you can get on disability, there might be some other help as well. Do you live in the US? It's probably a lot more difficult there. :\ 

What I'd say is, perhaps try... ignoring your parents. And not dealing with them as much as possible. Just focus on getting away from them however you can, i.e. getting a job or whatever is necessary, because it doesn't sound like they will be very uh, helpful, to your situation. Unless they decide to help you, just block them off. Personally, and I know your ability to deal with things is obviously different than my own, but personally I let the pronouns go as much as I can because I don't want to start fights when I intend to move out soon enough. If you can focus on that, on getting away, perhaps it would be easier to ignore them.


----------



## Bluberry Bat

I've tried that angle, but there's really nothing he can do... He pointed me in the right direction, but with no way of getting around, it's equally moot for the time. The biggest problem, I suppose, is the fact I live in the middle of nowhere - it's upstate New York. Taxes are high, job availability is low, and I'm in the woods nowhere reasonably near any sort of public transportation or cluster of business. The folks refuse to let me use their vehicles (apparently I don't 'drive enough'. Well, yes, I /can't/. And these two are either busy during the day, or winding down at night so won't 'supervise' me. (A farce anyway, every time I do get them out they comment how I'm just fine driving.)) so, lacking the obvious buying power to get even a puddle jumper of my own, I'm stranded.
That said, yes, I'm in the US sadly. NY is one of the better places, but I can confess an overall hatred of the country. One of my first priorities is moving out of it.. of course this causes yet another point of antagonism with father, who's one of those 'THIS HERE'S THE BEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD HYUCK HYUCK' Americunts. And mind you, he's (supposedly) Liberal Democrat, but he's tried to argue back to my plans - not to mention points as to why I want to leave and dislike the country - with exactly that statement. "This is the best country in the world!" he says as I offer points as to why overall its one of the least progressive [first world] countries and one of the worst places for me to try and live, things considered. Oh, and "You could be living in *Hot News-Story Country of the Week*" is another favourite. "At least you don't live in Libya, imagine then!" Oh, kill me now.


So, I've been ignoring them for a long time now... It gets harder as time goes on, there's only so much I can do. I lock myself away in my room, generally. All I can really do is apply to places online, which I do as much as I can. Yet to get a response. I'm trying - though the folks are quick to say I'm not. "You need to get out more!" ....Why yes, I bloody well DO don't I?!
*Sigh* My ability to deal with them is.. slowly waning. I'm not the most patient person to begin with, I'll admit, but they're getting ridiculous really. I've been trying to ignore pronouns, but it gets harder with times as they blatantly steer into masculine ones. My mum tries to hide in other rooms, my dad blurts it and refuses to even /try/. I gently nudged them over the years to try and patch it up, but it's been the same song and dance the whole time. Mum /sometimes/ does but she says it slow and deliberately like it hurts her, and only when I'm blatantly within earshot. Honestly though, it really rattles me, the wrong pronoun.. I'm not the best at dealing with it. I'm trying, but I tell them openly, 'I don't get angry for mistakes, I get angry when one simply doesn't try'. (Protip: They still 'wonder' why I get so angry.)


----------



## Tomatochu

I recently came to the realization that I'm bisexual. I've been keeping quiet about it in fear of what my parents will think, but I'm finding it difficult to keep it a secret" I've had a boyfriend before but That was only for a couple weeks, and nothing serious happened. I still haven't found out what my family thinks about homosexuality and bisexuality. I need some advice on what to do.


----------



## shy ♡

Blu, I really have no advice... unfortunately. :\ Uhg, your situation sounds like total crap and I'm really sorry. If it's any consolation, I felt the same, and that I was in the same situation, a short while ago. And I had no expectation that things would change because I didn't see that there was any way they could. But it seems like things have turned around for me, at least somewhat, so they might for you as well. 

Tomatochu, I'd say you should probably avoid coming out unless there's some reason to do so. Just my opinion, of course, but unless there's some conflict over your sexuality, or something where coming out is necessary, I don't really think it's... an important thing to do? But if you feel it's important to come out you should probably ask your parents questions about their opinions regarding homosexuality/bisexuality first, so you can get some... uh, idea, regarding how they'll react.


----------



## Tomatochu

Derpy Hooves said:


> Tomatochu, I'd say you should probably avoid coming out unless there's some reason to do so. Just my opinion, of course, but unless there's some conflict over your sexuality, or something where coming out is necessary, I don't really think it's... an important thing to do? But if you feel it's important to come out you should probably ask your parents questions about their opinions regarding homosexuality/bisexuality first, so you can get some... uh, idea, regarding how they'll react.


I was hoping I could wait till I moved out, but it's getting hard for me to do that, plus I'm getting depressed over this for some reason. I feel like I need to do it.


----------



## Bluberry Bat

*Sigh* I guess what I'm waiting for is.. work, really. With a bit of actual money in my pockets I could solve most of this. > Acquire Vehicle > Have easier time in future /finding/ work > Self sufficiency of meds and procedures > Ability to finally leave country > Etcetera.
...There's no easy answer, I know... I appreciate the encouragement, though.. sometimes I just really, really need to vent.. things have to turn around eventually - else I live in a cardboard box in Times Square (arguably preferable at times) - and as soon as they do I'll have no reason to put up with any of the folks' crap.



- Also Tomatochu.. my personal recommendation in such a situation is usually to very discreetly probe out acceptance from the people around you. See if you can (very gently) steer conversations into the subject. You just have to be careful with it, but if they look okay, you can slowly bring it up a bit each time until you're confident enough to flat out say something. It just takes an ear for openings - reactions to radio shows, or public displays, anything. Of course, you have to be ready to back off if they could be less than accepting.


----------



## Crazy Linoone

@Lil' Dwagie: *hugs* This... really sucks. *hugs again* Maybe you can apply for those stay-at-home jobs that only requires you to have a computer and internet access. That way, you can earn money (not a lot, but still money) without having to leave your room. Or maybe you can do art commissions? You're old enough so that your parents don't have any legal power over you anymore. 

@Tomatochu: Discreetly steering the conversation towards that subject is a good idea. That way, you can make sure your friends won't abandon you or make your life miserable after you come out before coming out to them. Be careful if you live in a not-liberal place though, because rumors can be nasty. A good way to do it is to look for some QUILTBAG related stuff in the news or whatever you and your parents usually read, then make some remark about it in order to spark a conversation. 


I dunno. I'm one of the lucky ones who lives in the Gayest State Ever. You drive down to San Francisco and the first thing you see while coming off the highway is a row of rainbow flags. A lot of classrooms at my school have stickers saying "safe zone" and "no homophobia" and stuff on the windows, and we have a GSA, even though it doesn't do anything. I kinda live in a bubble like that -- being on TCoD and hanging out with people really acceptant of gay culture (being Anime nerds does that to you. Shipping _requires _gay) made me think the world is a really nice place with rainbows and sparkles and fabulousness. 

And then I hear stories like Lil' Dwagie's and see fliers against gay marriage claiming that gay people marrying will cause people to marry animals and turn children gay (the flier was in Chinese, no less) and hear my classmates talk about how bi people are just greedy and _argh_. 

But there is hope! This generation is a lot more accepting than the last, and we're heading towards equality, no matter how slow the progress may seem at the time. There'll be a day when anti-gay marriage laws are viewed like laws prohibiting marriage across races -- old relics of that immoral past we'll never go back to and nothing more. 

So uh, I dunno why I just wrote all that, but I think what I'm trying to say is "LIVE ON EVERYONE DON'T KILL YOURSELVES NO MATTER HOW BAD THINGS GET :o"


----------



## Lorem Ipsum

linking to another site here: click

Basically this is a thread I started about homosexuality over there because I knew that there were some religious people and I wanted to know their views. Read the thread, and you'll see why I'm so exasperated at the moment.


----------



## JackPK

I honestly could not read further than the first page for fear of snapping my laptop in half. I would ask if it gets better, but judging by your exasperation I would wager it doesn't.


----------



## hopeandjoy

Lorem, why did I read all nine pages? Why didn't I just stop before I raged?

Good god, how do you put up with these people?


----------



## Flora

> Homosexuality is completely choice. I do NOT believe in people being born to be homosexual because that is totally invalid. From the day we're born, we will be attracted to the opposite gender. Homosexuals are those who THINK they're attracted to the same sex, when in fact they simply are looking in the wrong point of view.


...the _fuck_. Oh, believe me, I sure as hell didn't _choose_ to like my best friend! If given the option, I'd definitely trade that for liking someone else. And I'm _absolutely positive_ I like her; hell, I felt the same way about another friend _and_ my opposite gender crushes. (actually, my sister could tell I had a crush on my best friend because I had the same attitude towards said friend as I did towards another female crush of mine SO)

I'm currently reading the rest of this but that post filled me with raaaaaaaaaage and thus.

(oh speaking of I was talking to my sis who knows and I mentioned that said crush didn't like me talking about my then-boyfriend. Sister's response was  "Maybe she's jealous!" I wish, sis, I wish.)


----------



## Jolty

that thread made my head hurt
blah blah I didn't choose to be anything, my oestrogen/testosterone levels do not dictate what gender I am attracted to, who I am attracted to is not the result of a "birth defect" or any other bullshit

also this bugged me a bit, even though it's not really related to the thread in question...


> "True gender" is determined by chromosomes - a man has an X and a Y and a woman two Xs. This is it - there is nothing else that categorically makes one a man or a woman.


----------



## Diz

Flower Doll said:


> (oh speaking of I was talking to my sis who knows and I mentioned that said crush didn't like me talking about my then-boyfriend. Sister's response was  "Maybe she's jealous!" I wish, sis, I wish.)


I dunno, you're sister seems pretty spot on about these things


----------



## Flora

Diz said:


> I dunno, you're sister seems pretty spot on about these things


But there's also the problem of "she has a boyfriend whom she loves a hell of a lot and they are the cutest thing ever." Though tbh whenever she does something that could theoretically be misconstrued as her crushing on me she just says  "but I don't like you that way" so maybe there's hope?

(also the occasional pulling-me-onto-her-lap and the fact that she gets _really_ upset if I'm in one of my people-hate-me moods)


----------



## Crazy Linoone

> Homosexuality is completely choice.


Why would anyone choose to be homosexual and have people discriminate against you, hate you, stereotype you, try to kill you, disrespect you, claim that you're an inferior species, call you unnatural, and pretend you don't exist?


----------



## Aobaru

Jolty said:


> also this bugged me a bit, even though it's not really related to the thread in question...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "True gender" is determined by chromosomes - a man has an X and a Y and a woman two Xs. This is it - there is nothing else that categorically makes one a man or a woman.
Click to expand...

Why are you bugged? Don't XX/XY chromosomes determine biological sex?


----------



## allitersonance

Intersexuality aside (though it's the I in the club name!), they are saying true _gender_.


... I suppose I stalk this club enough that I might as well join. Not participating in anything resembling human interaction, I don't see myself having a lot to say, but you can never have too many amoebas, right.


----------



## Aobaru

Grate Aural Sects said:


> Intersexuality aside (though it's the I in the club name!), they are saying true _gender_.


Ah, I see. Didn't notice that. Yes, that poster should have said "true sex".


----------



## Lorem Ipsum

That was me - I put "true gender" in inverted commas because I was highly uncertain that the other (more religious) posters would understand the difference between sex/gender. It pained me to do so, but that would have been going down a whole different route with a whole load of different irritations.


----------



## Harlequin

That thread is really upsetting. The sheer amount of absolute bollocks contained inside it makes me want to cry.


----------



## Diz

And so I shall change the topic.

Lots of QUILTBAG-y goodness in tonight's Glee episode. I feel happy knowing that somewhere out there, some one (Kurt) is less sexy that me.


----------



## Dannichu

Lorem Ipsum said:
			
		

> Tchaikovsky was gay - he wrote "Romeo and Juliet" partly due to his very close relationship with Mily Balakirev, a fellow Russian composer. Shakespeare wrote some of the most beautiful poetry in the English language in (romantic) devotion to a man. Elton John, Ian McKellen, Oscar Wilde, Alan Turing (without whom our war efforts would have severely been held back), David Bowie, Benjamin Britten, Stephen Fry, W. H. Auden, Wilfred Owen -- the list could go on of people who are gay and have culturally given to us so much.


Oi. Queer women have contributed significantly to the cultural landscape, too, even when it's been much harder for them to do so - in 1999 Carol Anne Duffy was passed over as poet laureate because Tony Blair was "'worried about having a homosexual poet laureate because of how it might play in middle England", and wasn't given the job until 2009.

The list of gay people who've contributed culturally _does_ go on. It includes Virginia Woolf, Daphne Du Maurier, Jeanette Winterson, Vita Sackville-West, Sarah Waters, Gertrude Stein - hell, Sappho herself!


----------



## Tailsy

Carol Ann Duffy: awesome.
Virginia Woolf: awesome.
Daphne du Maurier: awesome.
Sarah Waters: awesome.

First year of an English course, guys. My university is *awesome* yeah.

(Also, on the men's list: where's Allen Ginsberg? He's cool too.)


----------



## Harlequin

Yeah but they're ~girls~ and ~lesbians~ and that's like, combining two bad things to make a super bad thing. :( stop being lesbian please, needs moar dick


----------



## surskitty

Hey, Harlequin?  Could you stop with the hipster misogyny?  It's incredibly irritating.


----------



## Harlequin

You're just saying that because you're a ~girl~.

(k)


----------



## JackPK

Harlequin said:


> Yeah but they're ~girls~ and ~lesbians~ and that's like, combining two bad things to make a super bad thing. :( stop being lesbian please, needs moar dick


needs lots of dicks


----------



## Diz

Jack_the_PumpkinKing said:


> needs lots of dicks


All the dicks!


----------



## Dannichu

Applejack said:


> Carol Ann Duffy: awesome.
> Virginia Woolf: awesome.
> Daphne du Maurier: awesome.
> Sarah Waters: awesome.
> 
> First year of an English course, guys. My university is *awesome* yeah.
> 
> (Also, on the men's list: where's Allen Ginsberg? He's cool too.)


Are you doing a module on LGBT/women's literature, or did all of these just come up in general English Literatureness?

I enjoy all of them, too, although I'd be nice if they were a bit, you know, happier.

And Sarah Waters went to my university! She's like, one of two alumni we have that anybody's ever heard of (the other is Alan Davis, and I look forward to someday taking my place as 'Famous UoK graduates' among them :D), and she came and did and Q&A/signing sesh in my first year. She was fantastic.


----------



## opaltiger

I confess I had no idea Virginia Woolf was gay. o.o


----------



## Dannichu

I think she's historically seen as bisexual, since she did seem to love her husband, but she wrote Mrs Dalloway for Vita Sackville-West, with whom she had an affair.

Edit: Sorry; Orlando, not Dalloway.

Wiki says:



> The ethos of the Bloomsbury group encouraged a liberal approach to sexuality, and in 1922 she met the writer and gardener Vita Sackville-West, wife of Harold Nicolson. After a tentative start, they began a sexual relationship, which, according to Sackville-West, was only twice consummated. In 1928, Woolf presented Sackville-West with Orlando, a fantastical biography in which the eponymous hero's life spans three centuries and both genders. Nigel Nicolson, Vita Sackville-West's son, wrote "The effect of Vita on Virginia is all contained in Orlando, the longest and most charming love letter in literature, in which she explores Vita, weaves her in and out of the centuries, tosses her from one sex to the other, plays with her, dresses her in furs, lace and emeralds, teases her, flirts with her, drops a veil of mist around her". After their affair ended, the two women remained friends until Woolf's death in 1941.


----------



## opaltiger

Huh! That's really interesting. Yeah, my perception was coloured by The Hours, but I suppose that shows only a very short span of time! I wonder what her husband thought about it.


----------



## ...

That _is_ something. I never thought Woolf was lesbian, bisexual, or anything other than straight. :o


----------



## Lorem Ipsum

Dannichu said:


> Oi. Queer women have contributed significantly to the cultural landscape, too, even when it's been much harder for them to do so - in 1999 Carol Anne Duffy was passed over as poet laureate because Tony Blair was "'worried about having a homosexual poet laureate because of how it might play in middle England", and wasn't given the job until 2009.
> 
> The list of gay people who've contributed culturally _does_ go on. It includes Virginia Woolf, Daphne Du Maurier, Jeanette Winterson, Vita Sackville-West, Sarah Waters, Gertrude Stein - hell, Sappho herself!


My list was full of men because according to the religious nuts the Bible only outlaws male homosexuality. But I do acknowledge that lesbians have done cool stuff too :)

And whoever said Kurt wasn't sexy is lying


----------



## Tailsy

Dannichu said:


> Are you doing a module on LGBT/women's literature, or did all of these just come up in general English Literatureness?
> 
> I enjoy all of them, too, although I'd be nice if they were a bit, you know, happier.
> 
> And Sarah Waters went to my university! She's like, one of two alumni we have that anybody's ever heard of (the other is Alan Davis, and I look forward to someday taking my place as 'Famous UoK graduates' among them :D), and she came and did and Q&A/signing sesh in my first year. She was fantastic.


General English Literature course! In the Introduction to Literature module last semester we also did a lot of Angela Carter (who isn't bisexual/a lesbian as far as I know, but feminist works are just as important!).


----------



## Minish

opaltiger said:


> Huh! That's really interesting. Yeah, my perception was coloured by The Hours, but I suppose that shows only a very short span of time! I wonder what her husband thought about it.


I'm pretty sure I've read that both Virginia Woolf and her husband had regular affairs with people of both sexes, so. I imagine he wasn't that bothered!


----------



## opaltiger

My one reference point (The Hours again) does suggest that he was a pretty cool guy.


----------



## Harlequin

Lorem Ipsum said:


> My list was full of men because according to the religious nuts the Bible only outlaws male homosexuality. But I do acknowledge that lesbians have done cool stuff too :)
> 
> And whoever said Kurt wasn't sexy is lying


Kurt is like the least sexy thing ever :(


----------



## Aobaru

Harlequin said:


> Kurt is like the least sexy thing ever :(


Agreed. Blaine is teh sex:


----------



## Harlequin

See now I'd gladly do all sorts of horrible, depraved things to _Blaine_... although I wouldn't say he's _sexy_. Attractive, certainly, but I'm not sure I'd go for sexy. IDK.


----------



## Lili

Alright, I have a problem.  At first, I thought I was pansexual, since I was attracted to some girls and was planning to ask out one of my chick friends.  Then I figured it was just a phase and that I'd grow out of it, so I started calling myself heterosexual again.  Turns out it was a mistake.

There's this girl who I like a lot, though not as much as my guy crush, but she's straight and would probably be creeped out if I told her I liked her.  It's kind of confusing since we're such great friends.  My feelings for her started when I saw her naked at her brithday party on Sunday.  I just haven't been able to stop thinking about it lately, and it's driving me fucking *insane*.  But yeah.  i dun no wut 2 doooo


----------



## JackPK

Harlequin said:


> Kurt is like the least sexy thing ever :(





Aobaru said:


> Agreed. Blaine is teh sex:


So much agreeing.
Actually I have a thing for blonds so if Sam could get over himself he would be the sexiest one on the cast...
and those lips...


----------



## Flora

Sweetie Belle said:


> Alright, I have a problem.  At first, I thought I was pansexual, since I was attracted to some girls and was planning to ask out one of my chick friends.  Then I figured it was just a phase and that I'd grow out of it, so I started calling myself heterosexual again.  Turns out it was a mistake.


My sexuality-thought-process went something like this:
"SO wait, do I like her? Yeah...I guess I'm bisexual NO WAIT she's just like a sister to me but wait now I don't even know T_T"

So yeah, I think that happens to a lot of people.

As for your "omg should I tell her" issue, I'm not entirely sure; I mean, I'd _hope_ she was just like "oh, okay, I don't like you back but whatever," but i don't exactly know if that would happen. I mean, that's why _I _never told.

Speaking of that situation I think this completely unrelated quote pretty well sums it up:



> Me: You're confusing meeeee...
> Her: GOOD.


----------



## Vladimir Putin's LJ

I like how shocked people are when I'm like 
'hey
hey buddy
hey dude
hey bro
hans christian andersen was bi :3c'


----------



## octobr

Harlequin said:


> See now I'd gladly do all sorts of horrible, depraved things to _Blaine_... although I wouldn't say he's _sexy_. Attractive, certainly, but I'm not sure I'd go for sexy. IDK.


HERE I GOT YOU SOME BLAINE-CENTRIC FANFICTION EVERYONE SHOULD READ IT FOR IT IS SUPER KAWAII

http://community.livejournal.com/kurt_blaine/319655.html


----------



## Tailsy

Fluttershy said:


> HERE I GOT YOU SOME BLAINE-CENTRIC FANFICTION EVERYONE SHOULD READ IT FOR IT IS SUPER KAWAII
> 
> http://community.livejournal.com/kurt_blaine/319655.html


I love you and I hate you.


----------



## Lorem Ipsum

Fluttershy said:


> HERE I GOT YOU SOME BLAINE-CENTRIC FANFICTION EVERYONE SHOULD READ IT FOR IT IS SUPER KAWAII
> 
> http://community.livejournal.com/kurt_blaine/319655.html


ok what the actual fuck


----------



## JackPK

Fluttershy said:


> HERE I GOT YOU SOME BLAINE-CENTRIC FANFICTION EVERYONE SHOULD READ IT FOR IT IS SUPER KAWAII
> 
> http://community.livejournal.com/kurt_blaine/319655.html


What the fucking fuck before I clicked I was thinking "I should post this fic" and that's TOTALLY different from what I was thinking CANNOT UNTHINK *claws out brain*

... okay now i'm better.


----------



## shy ♡

While Kurt > everyone in terms of awesome-powers, I've got to say I'm really, really glad people here don't find him particularly sexy. Certain members of the fandom have uh, given me nightmares, with their... er... well, attention to detail, when it comes to perving out on him, shall we say. :| Seriously Kurt is meant to be like. A puppy. Not a sex object. And Sexy was just evidence of that k.

*stuffs fingers in ears and sings* :[

Anyhow in actual relation to the thread (although Glee is totally on topic rite). So I moved out and my roommate and basically everyone in the place I'm living/working in is a bigot. And. Uhg. My roommate, for example; we were discussing movies (not because I wanted to because I would prefer to be alone but she's like 'come sit let's talk' and I'm like 'uhhhhg...' *sits and listens*) and she asks if I know this movie and I say no I don't like romance and then she's like OH SO I BET YOU LOVE TWILIGHT and I'm like ... no I don't like romance so she asks about another movie  and then she explains what it's about because I don't know any of those movies. So she mentions one and I'm like no and she's like 'good don't watch it it has _lesbians_. EWW.' And I'm... well my expression hasn't changed from :[ the entire time. :[ :[ :[ Ahhhg. And she's racist and sexist and HOW ARE JEWS RACIST DO THEY HAVE A FIVE MINUTE MEMORY? AHHGGG. Let's kill all the arabs because THAT NEVER FAILED BEFORE RIGHT AHAHAHA. *headdesk*

Someone save me. ; ;


----------



## Aobaru

Fluttershy said:


> HERE I GOT YOU SOME BLAINE-CENTRIC FANFICTION EVERYONE SHOULD READ IT FOR IT IS SUPER KAWAII
> 
> http://community.livejournal.com/kurt_blaine/319655.html


"Get Outta My Dreams, Get Into My Carbonara" is the most winning title ever.

However, I am very disturbed D:


----------



## Dannichu

Shai, I am very sorry about your roommate ): That's really rubbish - is there a period of time you have to live with her for, or can you move out soon?

I sort of love that fic. If only because it makes some of the stuff I read and think of as creepy and weird seem totally vanilla in comparison.


----------



## octobr

> I sort of love that fic. If only because it makes some of the stuff I read and think of as creepy and weird seem totally vanilla in comparison.


That is what I am here for, pal.

That is my _life._


----------



## shy ♡

Dannichu said:


> Shai, I am very sorry about your roommate ): That's really rubbish - is there a period of time you have to live with her for, or can you move out soon?
> 
> I sort of love that fic. If only because it makes some of the stuff I read and think of as creepy and weird seem totally vanilla in comparison.


I don't knooow if I can move out, that's the problem. Dx I want to move out as soon as possible, but I don't think there are any other rooms available. Gah.


----------



## MentheLapin

Harlequin said:


> Kurt is like the least sexy thing ever :(


Did he just... AW HAYULL NAWW. GIRRRRRLL HOLD MA EARRINGS.


----------



## Lili

Yoshiya Kiryu said:


> Did he just... AW HAYULL NAWW. GIRRRRRLL HOLD MA EARRINGS.


*takes earrings and backs away before she gets hurt*


----------



## Harlequin

Kurt isn't adorable, either. :( He's just kind of "meh".


----------



## ultraviolet

going to a gay rights march on saturday. will be back with photos!


----------



## shy ♡

Harlequin said:


> Kurt isn't adorable, either. :( He's just kind of "meh".


WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG

This is not a matter of opinion it is simply fact that Kurt is the cutest thing in the world, following puppies and kittens.


----------



## Harlequin

now I will agree with puppies and kittens, but Kurt does absolutely nothing for me. The strongest emotions I feel towards him are usually mild irritation or exasperation when he does something stupid.

:(


----------



## shy ♡

Then it's like when you don't get an awesome band. You know it's great. But you don't get it. Kurt is adorable. ... yep.


----------



## ...

Kurt is underrated, that's what he is. :(


----------



## Aobaru

Harlequin said:


> now I will agree with puppies and kittens, but Kurt does absolutely nothing for me. The strongest emotions I feel towards him are usually mild irritation or exasperation when he does something stupid.
> 
> :(


Hmm, I'd put Kurt on the level of puppies and kittens, at least.

Also, PORN IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR HIM because all he can think about is the actors' mothers D:


----------



## Tailsy

I always thought that most people didn't like Kurt! But then I read the liveblogs the gleeclub comm on LJ does, and God knows the fandom are the whiniest, hardest-to-please people I have ever met. If Kurt (and Blaine) appear in an episode it was UNNEEDED AND CUT INTO ~SPECIAL [character they like] TIME~

I'm just like. Okay. 

Personally I think Kurt is adorable and amusingly flawed, which is nice. He's *not* perfect, but that's what makes him interesting! ... I'm sort of interested to see how him and Blaine will deal with his aversion to sex, though. *strokes beard* Will he stay that way? Probably not, since this is Glee and apparently OCD is cured through dating dentists so christ only knows what's going to happen with asexuality(?), but...


----------



## JackPK

Personally, I love Kurt, but I hate how the writers treat him. I feel like he's being hijacked into their little Mary Sue this season the way Rachel was last season. I'm getting sick of it and I hope somebody else becomes their "favorite" in season three.


----------



## shy ♡

omg Sorry for the multiquotes but I honestly have to reply to everything because _Kurt_. ; ;



newt said:


> He's the single most popular character on the show how could be possibly be underrated
> 
> anyway I'll watch glee someday but my impression of kurt is that he's a Fred that people are sexually attracted to (it's sort of confusing)


wat you mean Fred from HP? Um I guess that is possible, although I never got into that fandom and I am not sexually attracted to Kurt (and I believe most people here aren't either?) so wat.



Applejack said:


> I always thought that most people didn't like Kurt! But then I read the liveblogs the gleeclub comm on LJ does, and God knows the fandom are the whiniest, hardest-to-please people I have ever met. If Kurt (and Blaine) appear in an episode it was UNNEEDED AND CUT INTO ~SPECIAL [character they like] TIME~
> 
> I'm just like. Okay.
> 
> Personally I think Kurt is adorable and amusingly flawed, which is nice. He's *not* perfect, but that's what makes him interesting! ... I'm sort of interested to see how him and Blaine will deal with his aversion to sex, though. *strokes beard* Will he stay that way? Probably not, since this is Glee and apparently OCD is cured through dating dentists so christ only knows what's going to happen with asexuality(?), but...


Yesyesyes. The fandom is _impossible_. I don't know if it's like this in all fandoms, please tell me it isn't, but oh my god they are impossible. Just love the goddamn characters, or don't, idgaf, but please shut uuup. :[ 

Uhg but. Also yes. I loooove Kurt's flaws. How can you pretend people don't have flaws?! And those are what make us real! What bugs me _most_, though, are the people who are all 'KURT IS A GAY CLICHE AND HE IS BAD FOR HOMOSEXUALS >(' oh my god do you not see how homophobic that statement is. Seriously. Sigh. And there are people like that in the fandom itself. 

As for asexuality, I'm actually rather worried, considering how they seemed to be dealing with Emma. Why can't she just _not want sex_. I mean yes, she should realize that, but it isn't helpful when Holly is like 'lol you're just frigid ok'. :[ I don't think Kurt is likely ace, but, he probably is not very sexual. More romantic than sexual, obviously. Which is all sorts of adorable, but yeah. Honestly, I don't think the writers even _know_ about asexuality. (I did sort of grin when Darren tweeted that it's cool to never have sex if you don't want to, either, after Sexy aired.)



Jack_the_PumpkinKing said:


> Personally, I love Kurt, but I hate how the writers treat him. I feel like he's being hijacked into their little Mary Sue this season the way Rachel was last season. I'm getting sick of it and I hope somebody else becomes their "favorite" in season three.


I'm hoping someone else gets more airtime because other characters need some plots, but I don't really think Kurt has become a mary sue... at all. :v I think many, many people would still complain about him being, well, flawed. Which he is. But, I do agree that the writers have their own flaws. Many flaws. *shrugs*


----------



## Tailsy

That's because Darren is a total sweetie. <3

And I agree with Shai that Kurt isn't really 'Mary-Sue' esque - yes, he gets a lot of screentime, but like Rachel is season one, he is _definitely not perfect_. Rachel is stubborn, childish, and self-centred; and Kurt is haughty and equally self-centred. You could even see that in 2x16 



Spoiler: Glee, 'Original Song'



when he sings 'Blackbird' - he gives the dude the tape like he has planned this perfectly, and is even dressed all crazy-dapper like! It seemed to be half fashion statement, half grief, imo. :P He *knows* he's amazing, which is certainly not always a good thing.



I agree with the whole Emma thing - I was cringing throughout 'Sexy' because of it (although I did laugh at Holly's 'damn girl, what is up with _that_?! He's hot!' comment). Seriously, the Celibacy Club? D: WHY IS RACHEL THERE? She gave it a massive smackdown in like, the third episode of season one! Why have they retconned her into a virginal virgin of virginity? e_e It makes no sense.

Kurt is certainly unlikely to *actually* be ace, of course, but I will be kind of sad if he magically loses his current mentality over the course of about three episodes. :( It's sweet! And definitely rebukes the whole 'oh, boys want sex all the time' crap.


----------



## shy ♡

Darren is a total cutiepie :D

I definitely got the feeling that Kurt planned the whole thing, in regards to Pavarati, haha. I think that might have been Chris's acting, idk, he likes to put layers into his scenes. 

I didn't even think about Rachel being against the celibacy club! Huh. That is weird. ... The writers can be rather ADD sometimes. :[

KURT IS A TOTAL SWEETIE oh god. Can only hope Blaine will be cool and the writers will be cool. Sometimes they are, and sometimes less so. :\


----------



## Tailsy

Hahaha, it did feel like that, didn't it? :D He's so passive-aggressive (Kurt, not Chris, obviously). 

And yyyeah, a lot of the time the writers seem to be writing different shows entirely. Ian's writing a black comedy, Brad is writing a thoughtful drama, and Ryan is... writing a Ryan Murphy thing. I'm not sure what it is, but sometimes it works and sometimes it *really* doesn't. Ergh. I hope it goes well. :c If they manage to keep Blaine IC I don't think he'll really have an issue with it, though.


----------



## Aobaru

I was going to ask why we're having a Glee discussion in a non-Glee thread, but then I remembered that this is the QUILTBAG club and it all made sense.

Anyway, Kurt doesn't deserve Blaine. Blaine is too sexy for him, imo. It'd be like fucking a puppy. So yeah, I'm totally anti-Burt.


----------



## octobr

Applejack said:


> Seriously, the Celibacy Club? D: WHY IS RACHEL THERE? She gave it a massive smackdown in like, the third episode of season one! Why have they retconned her into a virginal virgin of virginity? e_e It makes no sense.


REMEMBER WHO ELSE WAS IN CELIBACY CLUB?

PUCKERMAN. 

AND QUINN.

UNCELIBACY CLUB.


----------



## Ether's Bane

In other news, my country's censorship board have yet again proven their idiocy.


----------



## ...

There's also this, wherein Gaga was the one who took the initiative and backed out of a deal with Target due to them being affiliated with anti-gay groups and politicians.


----------



## MentheLapin

Starlit Ocean said:


> There's also this, wherein Gaga was the one who took the initiative and backed out of a deal with Target due to them being affiliated with anti-gay groups and politicians.


Option 1: Make a massive profit from a super-popular public figure's exclusive deal.
Option 2: Support various homophobic figures, losing loyalties.

_HRMMMM_


----------



## ...

Yoshiya Kiryu said:


> Option 1: Make a massive profit from a super-popular public figure's exclusive deal.
> Option 2: Support various homophobic figures, losing loyalties.
> 
> _HRMMMM_


It's as though they think the various homophobic figures are somehow _more_ popular. Wtf


----------



## Flora

Ramble time!

So apparently my crush alternates "oh my god don't touch me" days and ridiculously-affectionate-to-the-point-of-awkward (RATTPOA) days. Today? Oh, today was the _weirdest _RATTPOA days ever. 

Seriously, she was hugging me _a lot_. Jesus was getting crucified and we were supposed to be crying and she hugged me, which does _not normally happen._ (and she fixed my headband but that's beside the point) And she said we were gonna go on a "date" because my other friend and her boyfriend were going out with us after the play.

Also she _really_ needs to stop with the whole Turn Back O Man thing (for all intents and purposes _it's a freaking slut song)_, even said other friend was a little weirded out by it.

EDIT: _my god it never ends._

The random-Jesus-is-dying-hug happened again, Turn Back O Man happened _again,_ and it just keeps getting worse O_o

(that being said, if we can only get girls for my epic Godspell production and she _forces_ me to e Jesus I'll know why...)

tl;dr STOP MAKING ME QUESTION YOUR HETEROSEXUALITY DAMNIT


----------



## MentheLapin

This just happened on my Facebook [I'm the Alex there, if you're wondering]. It kinda made me wonder... are people just kind of uneducated about gays? I mean, I live in a horribly chavvy area, so it could just be that that's what they've been taught, but I don't know... It just kinda made my blood boil, and I wanted to vent.


----------



## ...

They are uneducated. It's all in the questions they ask and comments they make. Stupid stuff like "So since you're gay, do you like me?" "So when did you decide to become gay?" "Well as long as you don't try to come onto me or anything..." etc. Around where I live, people have only one perception of gays, and that's in the form of the drag queen. It's sad.


----------



## Flora

SO, guys, I have a question relevant to my life:

How do you convince someone that bisexuality does, in fact, exist, _without _coming out? Because one of my friends keeps saying that and it's kinda offensive to me, but at the same time I don't wanna say "Hey, I'm bi, what now" because then they'll ask who I like and since I keep crushing on my friends...

On a _completely _unrelated note my crush got me to sing with some form of a British accent (probably a London one, not entirely sure). Her reaction? Legitimately _squealing_ and shouting "Do it again!" Followed by more squealing when I obliged. I...don't know what to make of this.


----------



## shy ♡

Sooooo a while ago, my sister asked if I wanted to be referred to with male pronouns, to which I said yes. So she's been referring to me as male to her family (she was fostered fyi), whom I had expected to be way more closed-minded because the dad is often racist, sexist, anti-gay, etc. But apparetntly I'm cool, which is really cool imo, just... Giving them a new experience and receiving a reaction I didn't expect.

On the other hand, my brother reacted in annoyance when my sister referred to me as a dude. Which is just crap. :(


----------



## Diz

Well my life was going well, until today, when I realized I have a crush on a girl.

This wouldn't be too bad except that I don't have a physical attraction for her, and that caused me to wonder if I've ever had anything more than a physical attraction for guys.

And this has thrown my entire sexuality into doubt.


----------



## ...

Well if it's only a romantic attraction, then that likely makes you biromantic. It's not that complicated, really.


----------



## Minish

Flower Doll said:


> SO, guys, I have a question relevant to my life:
> 
> How do you convince someone that bisexuality does, in fact, exist, _without _coming out? Because one of my friends keeps saying that and it's kinda offensive to me, but at the same time I don't wanna say "Hey, I'm bi, what now" because then they'll ask who I like and since I keep crushing on my friends...


Maybe you could bring up a made-up relative or friend who's bisexual? That way you can act offended on their behalf. If they're a decent friend then they'll surely think twice about insulting you - and you can still educate them at the same time!


----------



## opaltiger

Diz said:


> Well my life was going well, until today, when I realized I have a crush on a girl.
> 
> This wouldn't be too bad except that I don't have a physical attraction for her, and that caused me to wonder if I've ever had anything more than a physical attraction for guys.
> 
> And this has thrown my entire sexuality into doubt.


Don't take this the wrong way, but... why do you care? So maybe you're not gay. Who cares? Has your entire life hinged on the fact that you might be gay? So maybe you're not sure what you are! Who cares? Maybe you're bi, or maybe you're gay but just happen to like this one girl. Maybe you like each person in a different way, and it's useless to try to generalise. Maybe gender doesn't matter.

In short: _who cares?_


----------



## JackPK

Diz said:


> Well my life was going well, until today, when I realized I have a crush on a girl.
> 
> This wouldn't be too bad except that I don't have a physical attraction for her, and that caused me to wonder if I've ever had anything more than a physical attraction for guys.
> 
> And this has thrown my entire sexuality into doubt.


I sometimes (well, often) get something ("crushes"? eh, don't like that word) similar-sounding to this on female friends of mine. (They're certainly the kind of feelings that would lead me to, if they were gay guys instead of women, ask them out and such.) But in the absence of male genitalia, I would describe my personal feelings more as the sudden inexplicable urge to get an apartment room together. (Is that a quirky description? Maybe so.)

My take on the matter: Think on it more, give it a few years, see where it takes you. Go with the flow, be fluid, maybe go so far as to get an apartment with this girl (er, that was mostly a metaphor). But don't decide you have to be strictly any sexuality (even bi- or pansexual). Do what you want now and save the labels for your posthumous Wikipedia article.

One of my friends likes to talk about her "lady-boner". I feel like that's kind of a good metaphor for my feelings. No actual boner for either of us, but the (non-sexual, for me) feelings associated therein.


----------



## Diz

Jack_the_PumpkinKing said:


> I sometimes (well, often) get something ("crushes"? eh, don't like that word) similar-sounding to this on female friends of mine. (They're certainly the kind of feelings that would lead me to, if they were gay guys instead of women, ask them out and such.) But in the absence of male genitalia, I would describe my personal feelings more as the sudden inexplicable urge to get an apartment room together. (Is that a quirky description? Maybe so.)


That's almost exactly how I feel about her, actually. 

And I guess it's not the end of the world, but I felt like I had everything figured out and it was great, and then to realize that I still don't know was unsettling.


----------



## ...

Well if that's the case, then there's nothing wrong. You like who you want to like. That's it. Simple, no?


----------



## Michi

Dear QUILTBAG Club.
On facebook, there is a survey that asks two questions. It gives four options but you can only choose one.
At the time of writing, here are the votes:

"Do you support Gay Rights and Weed Legalization"
592,375 - (Gay Rights) Yes
97,793 - (Gay Rights) No
395,080 - (Weed) Yes
102,060 - (Weed) No

*592,375.* to 97,793.

This makes me happy.


----------



## ...

((d^_^b)) and here I was thinking facebook was full of homophobes and conservative hicks. Those 97,793 folks who voted against it are probably all from the South though, just sayin


----------



## Aobaru

Starlit Ocean said:


> ((d^_^b)) and here I was thinking facebook was full of homophobes and conservative hicks. Those 97,793 folks who voted against it are probably all from the South though, just sayin


HEY


----------



## surskitty

Starlit Ocean said:


> Those 97,793 folks who voted against it are probably all from the South though, just sayin


That's not necessary and is probably actively harmful.  Please don't equate bigot with southerner.


----------



## Vladimir Putin's LJ

Wait, why do you have to choose between gay rights and legalizing marijuana?
It's not like they're mutually exclusive ?_?

I mean if the Netherlands is any indication the opposite seems to be true.


----------



## Dannichu

Starlit Ocean said:


> Those 97,793 folks who voted against it are probably all from the South though, just sayin


Lots of planets countries have a south! And if us Westcountrians were any more chillaxed, we'd be comatose :D

Those facebook quizzes confound me utterly. WHICH IS BETTER, MALE OR FEMALE??? and SHOULD FOOTBALLERS BE PAID MORE THAN SOLDIERS? 
Accurate, reliable and unbiased data-gathering for the win.


----------



## JackPK

Vladimir Putin's LJ said:


> Wait, why do you have to choose between gay rights and legalizing marijuana?
> It's not like they're mutually exclusive ?_?


This is why I didn't answer that poll, because it should have been checkmarks instead of one-choice-only.


----------



## Aobaru

Tailsy said:


> That's not necessary and is probably actively harmful.  Please don't equate bigot with southerner.


Well, in his defense, the South is a pretty desolate place in terms of LGBT-friendliness. Though things are slowly improving.


----------



## ...

American south, particularly around the Arkansas/Tennessee/Mississippi/Alabama area. People actually place anti-LGBT signs _outside their homes._


----------



## surskitty

Still, pretending that the US south is the problem and that everything'd be just fine and dandy without the US south is not at all helpful.  Particularly since there are plenty of people who aren't assholes from the south!


----------



## ...

I never said it was _THE_ problem. It's just a major contributor, especially in America. I live in the south and yes, there are a lot of people who aren't assholes. But the ones that are make up for it, believe me.


----------



## Diz

There are a lot of assholes.
And not the good kind.


----------



## JackPK

Starlit Ocean said:


> I never said it was _THE_ problem. It's just a major contributor, especially in America. I live in the south and yes, there are a lot of people who aren't assholes. But the ones that are make up for it, believe me.


It all depends on where in the South you are; I live in Central Texas* and don't see any more homophobia than I imagine would be in an average high school / college setting anywhere... if we're going to demonize anywhere, Utah would be my first instinct.

*Admittedly, Austin's predominately liberal; it was the only blue county in all of Texas in the 2008 presidential election, I believe.


----------



## ...

^ Texas is too awesome to be part of the South. It's like its own little government. :3 I'm talking about the Arkansas/Tennessee/Mississippi/Alabama area, where they'll withhold you from getting a job on an application if it's discovered you're gay. And they'll put it in the local news afterwards.


----------



## OrngSumb

Starlit Ocean said:


> ^ Texas is too awesome to be part of the South. It's like its own little government. :3 I'm talking about the Arkansas/Tennessee/Mississippi/Alabama area, where they'll withhold you from getting a job on an application if it's discovered you're gay. And they'll put it in the local news afterwards.


Happens other places too. Up in here Michigan my friend's grandfather runs one of the local hardware stores and is quite homophobic. Another friend of mine has parents who call me "the boy who thinks he's gay". Michigan =/= the South and it's just as bad.


----------



## Cap'n Sofa

Little Monster said:


> Dear QUILTBAG Club.
> On facebook, there is a survey that asks two questions. It gives four options but you can only choose one.
> At the time of writing, here are the votes:
> 
> "Do you support Gay Rights and Weed Legalization"
> 592,375 - (Gay Rights) Yes
> 97,793 - (Gay Rights) No
> 395,080 - (Weed) Yes
> 102,060 - (Weed) No
> 
> *592,375.* to 97,793.
> 
> This makes me happy.


A lot of my friends and I contributed to that number. I wonder how many of us have already seen this and voted on it.

(psst I'm not actually joining the club unless mere supporters are allowed, I'm straight as...uh, something that is mostly completely straight...?)


----------



## JackPK

Cap'n Sofa said:


> (psst I'm not actually joining the club unless mere supporters are allowed, I'm straight as...uh, something that is mostly completely straight...?)


I'm pretty sure there's no organization/structure to this "club" any more, it's mostly just post about the topic at hand if you have something to say about it.


----------



## ...

Cap'n Sofa said:


> A lot of my friends and I contributed to that number. I wonder how many of us have already seen this and voted on it.
> 
> (psst I'm not actually joining the club unless mere supporters are allowed, I'm straight as...uh, something that is mostly completely straight...?)


Where is this survey? I wish to contribute to that number also~


----------



## Harlequin

Lord Nyuu said:


> Guys! so there's an quiltbag thing at the school I'm looking at and I was wondering what kind of things quiltbag clubs do (to raise awareness?) What kinds of things would I be expected to do if I joined? :o


I know that Cardiff's LGBT+ Association is split into two groups, one a social wing and one an activist wing. The social wing is, as can be inferred from its name, about social events. They hold coffee mornings, film nights, club nights etc for gays LGBT+ students to meet and interact and whatnot. 

The activist wing is all about LGBT+ rights and such. They've managed to get the Student's Union to agree to installing a unisex toilet in the Union and a bunch of other stuff. There was a story in _gair rhydd,_ the student newspaper, about gay students who got asked to leave Solous, the university's nightclub, and they were all "wtf" to the staff about _that_...

It probably varies depending on where you are, but something that combines the two things above is probably what you'll find.


----------



## MentheLapin

More Facebook exploits.







He never replied, but hey... this guy's nearly 18, according to his profile. Guess it's not just kids who are uneducated...

_Flying Mint Bunny - hunter of homophobes_


----------



## ...

^ Wait, so you don't even know this guy?


----------



## Diz

So I keep getting crushes on my friends, and it's not good


----------



## Flora

Diz said:


> So I keep getting crushes on my friends, and it's not good


I feel ya, I feel ya. I am currently/ have crushed on about...4 friends? I've had about five crushes total too, so *sigh* and the one time I crush on someone I'm not friends with, he ends up liking me back and being an asshole.

And out of those four friend crushes, two are straight girls (well, the one's straight, the other's ambiguously straight), one's a gay guy, and the fourth...I don't even know.


----------



## ...

Diz said:


> So I keep getting crushes on my friends, and it's not good


Feels bad man

It especially sucks when a gay guy comes out to you...only to find he doesn't like you romantically. I mean, I don't _expect_ every single gay guy to have a crush on me in the same vein that a straight guy shouldn't expect to have every single girl crushing on him, but still. It's not a good feeling. Like I'm not good enough or something. :(


----------



## Dinru

For it being the Day of Silence, we're all rather qui-

oh.


----------



## Phantom

I wish I could have done the day of silence, but I kinda need to talk, for work and stuff.


----------



## Flora

Would've done Day of Silence but a) I stayed home from school due to illness and b) still not ready to come out yet.


----------



## Phantom

When I was in high school I hadn't either, but I still did day of silence to show support.


----------



## Jolty

Dragonshy said:


> For it being the Day of Silence, we're all rather qui-
> 
> oh.


I
wasn't aware it was day of silence already
damn that's another one I've missed >:(



Ashton van Helsing said:


> It especially sucks when a gay guy comes out to you...only to find he doesn't like you romantically. I mean, I don't _expect_ every single gay guy to have a crush on me in the same vein that a straight guy shouldn't expect to have every single girl crushing on him, but still. It's not a good feeling. Like I'm not good enough or something. :(


and this is late but are you aware of how ridiculous you sound


----------



## Harlequin

Man. My life has had, like, zero gay recently. Well. Except for this one guy. He frequents the same clubs as I do, I think, and he's one of the prettiest guys I've ever seen. He has this really, really camp way and dancing and he wears ridiculously low-cut tops and everything ever tells me I shouldn't be attracted to him but I am.

I'd probably approach him and be like "so, uh, are you gay?" except I'm a whiny little bitch lacking in self-confidence.

...yeah

but he's really pretty so I don't mind looking


----------



## Michi

I failed at the day of silence...
This one guy I really really like talked to me and I talked back (without remembering I was supposed to keep quiet [because I was distracted]).
So after that I was jst like "fuck it, I messed up already" and talked the rest of the day.


----------



## ...

Day of silence wtf

Why am I always the last one to know of these things

Anyway, I came out to a girl who's new in my Venture crew. She took it just fine and stuck up for me when a homophobic guy started using the word fag in reference to me. :3


----------



## Diz

Harlequin said:


> I'd probably approach him and be like "so, uh, are you gay?" except I'm a whiny little bitch lacking in self-confidence.


Do it!

You'll always regret that missed opportunity if he does turn out to be gay.


----------



## Harlequin

Diz said:


> Do it!
> 
> You'll always regret that missed opportunity if he does turn out to be gay.


I'm too fat, anyway. He's, like, ultraslim. 

so pretty ; ;

His dancing is absolutely terrible but I find it really adorable and endearing. D: whyyyyyy


----------



## Zeph

I would have participated in the day of silence had I actually _known about it._ Oh well!


----------



## ultraviolet

Harlequin said:
			
		

> I'm too fat, anyway. He's, like, ultraslim.


a lot of skinny people don't care about/are attracted to that! :O


----------



## Harlequin

ultraviolet said:


> a lot of skinny people don't care about/are attracted to that! :O


even if he doesn't it's more of an issue on my end D:


----------



## ...

Harlequin said:


> even if he doesn't it's more of an issue on my end D:


If he doesn't care, why would it be an insecurity issue? Real attraction is in the person, not the person's body.


----------



## Harlequin

Ashton van Helsing said:


> If he doesn't care, why would it be an insecurity issue? Real attraction is in the person, not the person's body.


Because I have a problem with my weight irrespective of whether or not anyone is attracted to me because/in spite of it. It's something that bothers me, and would continue to bother me and make me worried, even if I had a boyfriend.


(plus I'm sure he isn't the sort of person who wouldn't care anyway :B)


----------



## ...

Harlequin said:


> Because I have a problem with my weight irrespective of whether or not anyone is attracted to me because/in spite of it. It's something that bothers me, and would continue to bother me and make me worried, even if I had a boyfriend.


So this is more than an insecurity issue? Or am I just reading this from the wrong perspective?



> (plus I'm sure he isn't the sort of person who wouldn't care anyway :B)


This sentence confused me a little. Too many negatives.


----------



## shy ♡

If the person you're with or the person you want to be with has a problem with your weight or doesn't want to be with you because of your weight, do you really want to be with them?

"Does everything seem wrong with your body according to a sexual partner? If so, the problem is your partner, not your body."


----------



## Diz

Lorem Ipsum said:


> It's not that people /wouldn't/ find us attractive because we're overweight, it's more that we simply don't like being fat and assume that the smoking guys that we want to be with wouldn't go so low as one of us.


I have the same self esteem issue. Though most days I can get over it.


----------



## ...

Lorem Ipsum said:
			
		

> Harle (I can call you that right?) has exactly the same problem that I have. It's not that people /wouldn't/ find us attractive because we're overweight, it's more that we simply don't like being fat and assume that the smoking guys that we want to be with wouldn't go so low as one of us.


That's how I read it.



			
				Pathos said:
			
		

> If the person you're with or the person you want to be with has a problem with your weight or doesn't want to be with you because of your weight, do you really want to be with them?
> 
> "Does everything seem wrong with your body according to a sexual partner? If so, the problem is your partner, not your body."


That's what I was going to say/have already said.


----------



## Catch-22

Joining. I like the new name; it's very comprehensive.


----------



## Flazeah

Hopefully any potential boyfriends really could make you feel better, Harlequin and Lorem Ipsum? D: I haven't been in your position, but I hope you figure out a way to make yourselves feel better about it; maybe trying to adopt a healthier lifestyle if you haven't already would help - after all, being generally healthy, no matter your build or whatever, will probably make you feel happier (although I realise this is totally obvious; it's just I know how hard it can be to get around to changing habits). But seriously, your weight shouldn't matter, as others have said, to someone who wants to be with you.

 And welcome back, Catch-22!


----------



## Harlequin

Oh, I generally eat healthily. I'm the weight I am because I never exercise and I have a tendency to eat terrible food when I can't be bothered to go shopping. I really need to exercise more and stop drinking so much, but that probably won't happen.

I'm also an extremely insecure person in general, even though I manage to hide it and get by without appearing to be as insecure as I actually am.

I dislike my body at the moment (and my face and hair, but those are other issues), and because of that I assume that others won't like it, either. Especially when those others are particularly attractive specimens, you know? I know that even if I were more attractive and slimmer I'd still find excuses not to talk to men, though. I'm pathetic. :B

ALSO my weight might not matter to others, but it probably would matter to the types of men I actually find sexually attractive (that's part of the problem, too: I'm completely aware there are men who wouldn't mind my weight, but I'm also aware that I probably won't be attracted to them).


----------



## Catch-22

This is another example of why it isn't safe to be out in Baltimore, the city I've lived in for years:
http://www.bilerico.com/2011/04/transwoman_severely_beaten_at_baltimore_mcdonalds.php


----------



## Aobaru

Err... I have really weird hip bones. Like, they stick out and stuff. But I work out and exercise and everything, and it helps. I think ab exercises have made them less noticeable.

Harlequin, if your weight's bothering you, I'd say start off on a moderate exercise regimen! Like brisk walking a couple times a week. And then work up to harder stuff.


----------



## Harlequin

I'm too lazy. It's totally my own fault. :P


----------



## octobr

> (3:27:45 PM) Verne: HAVE I GOT A STORY YOU GUYS.
> (3:28:12 PM) Verne: You can sit criss-cross applesauce in a circle now.
> (3:28:36 PM) Verne: Today in my Human Sex & Gender class we had a speaker from the school counseling center!
> (3:28:42 PM) Nyuu: opal no
> (3:28:43 PM) Nyuu: link
> (3:28:44 PM) Nyuu: now
> (3:29:09 PM) Verne: She was there to discuss how she treats relationship and sexual issues for heterosexual vs homosexual students.
> (3:29:12 PM) opaltiger: I closed it! just look at neil gaiman's blog
> (3:29:23 PM) Nyuu: Verne: !
> (3:29:27 PM) Nyuu: tell all about this
> (3:29:32 PM) Verne: She went on and on about it and never once mentioned the word 'bisexual.'
> (3:29:58 PM) Verne: My teacher asks her what about homophobia, and transphobia and the woman starts out nice
> (3:30:56 PM) Verne: Saying you know there is no reason someone should have to change for society
> (3:30:58 PM) Verne: but then it gets into
> (3:31:22 PM) Verne: you shouldn't ever really change your body, I mean, even circumcision, and I am like what
> (3:31:47 PM) Verne: and then I ask well do you have preparations for the bisexual, pansexual, asexual, etc-sexual kids, and also the relationships involving trans or otherwise gendered students?
> (3:31:53 PM) Verne: and she's like well no we never see that ever
> (3:32:04 PM) Verne: "but I feel like that's more experimentation"
> (3:32:22 PM) Verne: Next to me: bisexual polyamorous girl who I am bros with who helps run the gsa
> (3:33:08 PM) Nyuu: Verne: :C!
> (3:33:42 PM) Verne: So she's basically told the impressionable college kids that the counseling center believes changing your body shouldn't happen even if your trans and that you can only be gay or straight



THIS JUST HAPPENED. 

/me cries in a corner


----------



## octobr

LOL NO THIS IS IMPORTANT STOP GLITCHING INTERNET. I /WILL/ HAVE THIS BE SEEN.


----------



## MentheLapin

Asexual is experimentation wut

She just sounds ignorant, imo. Maybe they really don't see cases like that, and she just doesn't care to research it?


----------



## ultraviolet

if she doesn't care to research it she shouldn't be in a counselling position. :|


----------



## ...

So. My family and I were watching the 10:00 news a couple of nights ago, and a brief snippet came on about the transgender woman who was beaten into a seizure at the McDonald's in Baltimore. My mom was just watching the footage of the beating in shock, until the reporter said, "...the victim, an unidentified transgender woman..." at which point she sat back and said "Okay then, good."

And she expects me to agree with her conservative ways.


----------



## Zeph

Ashton van Helsing said:


> So. My family and I were watching the 10:00 news a couple of nights ago, and a brief snippet came on about the transgender woman who was beaten into a seizure at the McDonald's in Baltimore. My mom was just watching the footage of the beating in shock, until the reporter said, "...the victim, an unidentified transgender woman..." at which point she sat back and said "Okay then, good."
> 
> And she expects me to agree with her conservative ways.


Words can barely express how disgusting that is.


----------



## shy ♡

Ashton van Helsing said:


> So. My family and I were watching the 10:00 news a couple of nights ago, and a brief snippet came on about the transgender woman who was beaten into a seizure at the McDonald's in Baltimore. My mom was just watching the footage of the beating in shock, until the reporter said, "...the victim, an unidentified transgender woman..." at which point she sat back and said "Okay then, good."
> 
> And she expects me to agree with her conservative ways.


Have to agree with Zephyrous here.

I do want to point out that the reaction from Obama has been pretty awesome. 

    “The transgendered community has to be protected. I just don’t have any tolerance for that sort of intolerance. And I think we need to legislate aggressively to protect them.”

(Quote by Obama, obv.) And they're having a meeting on what to do about the situation. Which, imo, is about time!


----------



## ...

Pathos said:


> I do want to point out that the reaction from Obama has been pretty awesome.
> 
> “The transgendered community has to be protected. I just don’t have any tolerance for that sort of intolerance. And I think we need to legislate aggressively to protect them.”
> 
> (Quote by Obama, obv.) And they're having a meeting on what to do about the situation. Which, imo, is about time!


That's really great; I had no idea he had addressed the issue yet.


----------



## Dannichu

What the actual hell.


----------



## MentheLapin

Dannichu said:


> What the actual hell.


Gosh, Dannichu, don't you know anything? Characters like Kurt Hummel and Canton Delaware are going to make the impressionable youths of Britain and elsewhere homosexual, so much so that an entire generation is gay and so the population dies out. THEREFORE, WE MUST BAN THE GAYS AND SAVE THE STRAIGHTS

...yeah...


----------



## Jolty

Dannichu said:


> What the actual hell.


+++ reasons for leaving the country


----------



## Harlequin

That's absolutely ridiculous, and is a step back even if straight kissing is removed, too. WTF CAMERON


----------



## Dannichu

I could sort of get my head around it if we're talking about violence pre-watershed or something, but _kissing_? Really? There's kissing in every bloody Disney movie that we show to kids who aren't even school-age! I can't begin to understand the reasoning behind this. Are they going to pass legislation that makes it illegal for couples to kiss in public, too?


----------



## Harlequin

I think it really is just a way of getting gays off TV, and you can bet that if it did go through there'd still be a lot more straight "kissing + such" than homosexual.


----------



## Lorem Ipsum

Well first, the words "The Sun reports" are there, so I'm taking it with a pinch of salt, but if it is true, I am seriously angry.


----------



## Worst Username Ever

...what the hell. That's... I have no words for how ridiculous this is. ._. If this is true... wtf?


----------



## Byrus

...why did that get more outraged posts than the article about the transwoman getting beaten? Not gonna lie, that really shook me.


----------



## opaltiger

Byrus said:


> ...why did that get more outraged posts than the article about the transwomen getting beaten? Not gonna lie, that really shook me.


It's the difference between groups of violent homophobic extremists (relatively easy to deal with) and an utterly ingrained societal and cultural norm (not so much).


----------



## Byrus

opaltiger said:


> It's the difference between groups of violent homophobic extremists (relatively easy to deal with) and an utterly ingrained societal and cultural norm (not so much).


I suppose so.

The story struck a personal cord with me so I'm just really upset right now.


----------



## shy ♡

Byrus said:


> I suppose so.
> 
> The story struck a personal cord with me so I'm just really upset right now.


Hm; would probably be beneficial to add a trigger warning in the future.


----------



## Harlequin

That story was absolutely disgusting, and I actually had nothing to say about it. There was nothing I _could_ say about it other than how disgusting it was, so ... I didn't say anything!

Also, what did we actually expect from a Conservative-led coalition? Srs?


----------



## Jolty

Byrus said:


> ...why did that get more outraged posts than the article about the transwomen getting beaten? Not gonna lie, that really shook me.


it's easier to say things when you're more angry than sad
I just cried at the trans girl being beaten, whereas I was like FUCK at the banning gay kisses thing


----------



## Aobaru

Harlequin said:


> Also, what did we actually expect from a Conservative-led coalition? Srs?


Forgive me for not knowing shat about English politics, but haven't the Conservatives become more gay-friendly in recent years? I read somewhere they're all for civil unions and stuff, at least.


----------



## Tailsy

Yes, the Tories are somewhat less homophobic than they were, but 'civil unions and stuff' don't mean crap when your Prime Minister thinks that gay kisses are icky. Ugh. I hate having to call Cameron 'my' Prime Minister. Independence please.

Wow, is that the Scottish Parliament elections on Thursday? _I wonder who I will vote for_? I dunno, maybe the party(ies) actively pushing for same-sex marriage? Or the one who doesn't want us stuck with Cameron and the Knob Brigade forever.


----------



## Zeph

surskitty said:


> Yes, the Tories are somewhat less homophobic than they were, but 'civil unions and stuff' don't mean crap when your Prime Minister thinks that gay kisses are icky. Ugh. I hate having to call Cameron 'my' Prime Minister. Independence please.


While I agree with you entirely of course, I'm pretty sure it was Nick Griffin of the BNP who called gay kissing in public 'icky', was it not?


----------



## Tailsy

Well, I wasn't really quoting directly... but sure! I'm... sure that probably happened!


----------



## Dannichu

(semi-related to current conversation) 

Am I the only one who thought it was a bit cheeky to invite Elton John and his husband to the royal wedding? Obviously, everyone wants their friends and family with them 'on the big day', and it'd obviously be awkward and rude to _not_ invite your gay friends/family members, but there's something rather off about having the biggest wedding in several decades and then inviting people who aren't allowed to get married at all.


----------



## Harlequin

Well, I mean, I can kind of understand that, but like ... I don't think they really thought of it like that. I think it was more of an "Elton was a really close friend of our mother and he's done some cool stuff and we like him so let's invite him", and then they didn't think about the whole "but he's a GAYYYYY" or something. idek.

Also Harry was invited to the wedding and _he_ had to play a role! Awkward as. (:P)

but yeah even though the Conservatives have been all "sure wev" about gays lately, that's really only because they can't afford to NOT do that without alienating a huge number of their voters. I think if they had their way they'd go right back to what it was like before.


----------



## Lorem Ipsum

Hurr, to be honest I'd rather the Tories were out and out homophobic and stand by their principles than veil it. That would make the decision easier for me whether to join the LibDems or the Tories.


----------



## Harlequin

Hahah, earlier today, right, my father was here in the house for some reason and there was an obviously gay man with a moustache on TV. Cue joke, explanation of joke etc, and then he comes out with the gem "Me and my brother Chris can spot them [gays] anywhere."

And I was like "hahaha you've been living with one for like twenty years, neither you nor chris have spotted that" (in my head, since I'm not out.) But it amused me.


----------



## ...

Harlequin said:


> Hahah, earlier today, right, my father was here in the house for some reason and there was an obviously gay man with a moustache on TV. Cue joke, explanation of joke etc, and then he comes out with the gem "Me and my brother Chris can spot them [gays] anywhere."
> 
> And I was like "hahaha you've been living with one for like twenty years, neither you nor chris have spotted that" (in my head, since I'm not out.) But it amused me.


Same here, bruh. Except my mom calls it "gaydar." The term makes me cringe.


----------



## ....

Joining.

So I'm asexual. And I also feel transgender: female body, 100% male mind.

As much as I want to be a boy, I know that my parents won't accept it. After all, my mom was watching tv with me and saw a commercial for a program about transsexuals. 

And her remark? "That's just disgusting."

:(


----------



## Phantom

That is fucked up! That's one of the reasons I love British tv! They were so open!  Any more news on it yet?


----------



## Aobaru

Lorem Ipsum said:


> Hurr, to be honest I'd rather the Tories were out and out homophobic and stand by their principles than veil it. That would make the decision easier for me whether to join the LibDems or the Tories.


Why aren't you joining Labour? Just curious.

If I were British, I would definitely join the Lib Dems. From what I've read, they're the most civil libertarian.


----------



## opaltiger

Lorem Ipsum said:


> Hurr, to be honest I'd rather the Tories were out and out homophobic and stand by their principles than veil it. That would make the decision easier for me whether to join the LibDems or the Tories.


Wait, why on earth are you okay with joining an implicitly homophobic party but not an explicitly homophobic one? Surely the former is even worse?


----------



## Dannichu

Phantom said:


> That is fucked up! That's one of the reasons I love British tv! They were so open!  Any more news on it yet?


I think what was said before about it applying as much to heterosexual sexualisation as homosexual is right, so I don't _think_ it's specifically aimed at getting the gays off TV (but that could still happen because obviously nobody objects to het kissing (a gazillion people tuned into the wedding the other week just to see one!), but people still write angry letters every time two same-sex people kiss, regardless of context). Although it's still a shame if they're trying to curtail expressions of sex generally, though - I'm not a fan of graphic sex of any kind on TV, but I think it's great that it's still _allowed_ to be shown.

And I wish censors (British, but especially American) would get over non-sexual nudity. It's not provocative, you see worse when you go to an art museum, and it's certianly not something people need protecting from.

And Mawile, your mother makes me sad ):


----------



## Aobaru

Lorem Ipsum said:


> Because I disagree entirely with the concept of socialism. I prefer capitalism, but am a liberal.


I think I've found my British twin ^-^ *hugs*


----------



## surskitty

Lorem Ipsum said:


> Because I disagree entirely with the concept of socialism. I prefer capitalism, but am a liberal.


You know, in the US, you have to pay to use an ambulance.


----------



## Lorem Ipsum

Tailsy said:


> You know, in the US, you have to pay to use an ambulance.


Obviously, that is wrong - healthcare should be free.


----------



## surskitty

Then I don't think you're actually against socialism.


----------



## Dannichu

I also assume you like things like roads and pavements and libraries and poor people getting an education and streetlights and being able to call the fire brigade if your house catches fire.


----------



## shy ♡

Don't be silly, none of those things are required. Or we can have all of that and still call it a free market because socialism isn't socialism when conservatives are in charge.

In a _free market_ all of these things would be privately owned. You can't be against socialism and still want to have socialist things. (Meaning, the US is not actually a free market, or at least not as much as it pretends to be.)


----------



## surskitty

You know, some towns in the US have opt-in fire departments.  You have to pay an annual fee for the fire department to come to your house.


----------



## shy ♡

Tailsy said:


> You know, some towns in the US have opt-in fire departments.  You have to pay an annual fee for the fire department to come to your house.


Oh yeah who wouldn't want to be a capitalist, badge of honor right there. :| That sounds like a mafia. Pay us to protect you.


----------



## surskitty

The difference is that the mafia would then set the fires.  There, they're just waiting for it to happen on its own.


----------



## Aobaru

Lorem Ipsum said:


> Obviously, that is wrong - healthcare should be free.


Welll, that's pretty socialist. 

I think it's impractical to say "I'm completely against socialism"; I mean, socialism, on a small scale, is pretty much everywhere. Anything that your tax dollars are used for to benefit the public (police, fire dept., museums, EMTs, etc.) is socialism. What Lorem and I are saying is that the system should be _largely_ free-market capitalism, with a degree (Lorem and I obviously disagree to what degree) of socialism.


----------



## Dannichu

Just asking out of curiosity - are you in _favour_ of leaving poor people bleeding by the roadside?


----------



## Vladimir Putin's LJ

Dannichu said:


> Just asking out of curiosity - are you in _favour_ of leaving poor people bleeding by the roadside?


Let them bleed out if they don't contribute to the upper classes, I say. *huff pipe, smiling in full knowledge that I on the other hand am a worthwhile member of society because I have money and that's all that matters*

And I'm very glad the Tories are putting up this gay-friendly front but tbh when their leader was for Section 28 and actively campaigned for it for years and still says stuff like 'well i think we can all agree that it is obvious that children should preferably have a mum and a dad and not anything else' and allies his party with a far-right Polish party whose leader calls gay people 'faggots' in parliament isn't actually as open-minded as he's pretending to be.

Also Brussels Pride next week! I am looking forward to it because of all the party hats and balloons and floats with men dressed up as sailors :3c it was really cool last year and the year before and this year I've actually got people to go with me, yaaaay. It's all a bit of fun but at the same time, I think it's pretty awesome that this event is so popular in Brussels. There's stuff advertising it down the main street downtown. I see stuff like this, or just gay couples walking about holding hands or kissing and I remember how cool it is being Western European. SUCH PROGRESS
It's one day after my school's version of a prom, and I've decided that I'll be wearing a suit (and waistcoat and top hat and monocle) and no one's gonna stop me yeaaaah

Also my mother has sometimes mixed up my pronouns even though she thinks me being trans is a phase. ~*Consistency*~ oh well she grew up in a dictatorship I guess I can forgive her being a bit weird about some stuff when she's otherwise so cool.


----------



## Phantom

Average ride in ambulance in US is about $150 - $300. It depends on what duties are performed.


----------



## Aobaru

Dannichu said:


> Just asking out of curiosity - are you in _favour_ of leaving poor people bleeding by the roadside?


Um... last I checked it's illegal to refuse treatment to "poor people" in an emergency situation.


----------



## Harlequin

Aobaru said:


> Um... last I checked it's illegal to refuse treatment to "poor people" in an emergency situation.


Except then they have to find some way to pay, right, even if they have absolutely no money to cover the cost of the treatment?


----------



## Flora

Harlequin said:


> Except then they have to find some way to pay, right, even if they have absolutely no money to cover the cost of the treatment?


I'm _pretty_ sure that if they can't afford it, they still can't be turned down; I think it's covered by taxpayers in that case. (not entirely sure)


----------



## Phantom

If you're a first responder, like CPR and AED trained, it's illegal to leave someone in need of _your trained services_. It's okay to not do anything if the person needs more advanced care than you are lawfully trained to give, either way you need to call for EMS. So say John Smith collapses from a heart attack while shopping. You're trained to respond by calling 911, and if he's unconscious perform CPR if needed and setup the AED. In this case you need to help and if anything happens, person dies or suffers CPR related injuries, you're protected. Now say some John Smith has been in a car accident and is unconscious and trapped in his car. He may have suffered severe neck injuries and moving him without proper training and equipment could make things worse and might kill him. If you get him out of the car and he now must live his life in a bed tied to machines now you can be charged because you acted outside your training. This is when you call EMS and stay nearby until EMS arrives. It's called the Good Samaritan Act. Here's the law for here in MN.


----------



## Dannichu

Aobaru said:


> Um... last I checked it's illegal to refuse treatment to "poor people" in an emergency situation.


Yeah, but it's illegal for gays to marry and I disagree with that. I was asking your opinion, not the law (I am sounding way more agressive than I mean to, I'm just genuinely curious).



Phantom said:


> If you're a first responder, like CPR and AED trained, it's illegal to leave someone in need of _your trained services_. It's okay to not do anything if the person needs more advanced care than you are lawfully trained to give, either way you need to call for EMS. So say John Smith collapses from a heart attack while shopping. You're trained to respond by calling 911, and if he's unconscious perform CPR if needed and setup the AED. In this case you need to help and if anything happens, person dies or suffers CPR related injuries, you're protected. Now say some John Smith has been in a car accident and is unconscious and trapped in his car. He may have suffered severe neck injuries and moving him without proper training and equipment could make things worse and might kill him. If you get him out of the car and he now must live his life in a bed tied to machines now you can be charged because you acted outside your training. This is when you call EMS and stay nearby until EMS arrives. It's called the Good Samaritan Act. Here's the law for here in MN.


This is very interesting. Hm.


----------



## Phantom

They teach this here in the US along with First Aid/CPR/AED training. If anyone here hasn't learned CPR please do; it saves lives. I've seen this first hand.


----------



## Aobaru

Flower Doll said:


> I'm _pretty_ sure that if they can't afford it, they still can't be turned down; I think it's covered by taxpayers in that case. (not entirely sure)


They are basically asked to fill out paperwork proving that they cannot pay, and then the hospital has different programs that will cover the bills so that the individual can still get treated. They can't turn anyone away.



> Just asking out of curiosity - are you in favour of leaving poor people bleeding by the roadside?


No.


----------



## surskitty

And some states are doing their best to force people to prove that they are a citizen before getting emergency care.  So.  There's that.


----------



## Harlequin

So you know how a while ago I was interested in a guy I took to calling the PFG? Well, last night I found out that's he's straight and has been in a relationship with a girl for three years. That was interesting to hear!

But it's okay, because I have it on _very good authority_ that his friend is gay. Hoorah!


----------



## Aobaru

Harlequin said:


> But it's okay, because I have it on _very good authority_ that his friend is gay. Hoorah!


Good luck finding a boyfriend! :D I can assure you it's much harder here in South Carolina... ;-;


----------



## Harlequin

Iiiiii'm not sure it'll get to that stage, really. I mean, I know he's gay first-hand, what with the hours he spent in my bed, but like, um. MAYBE!

good luck to you anyway! it's not always that hard, I mean this happened totally accidentally


----------



## Lorem Ipsum

Question for all: when did you first kiss somebody of your own gender in a romantic way? Just currently incredibly depressed about the fact that nobody I know is gay and it's not looking as if that's going to change.


----------



## Squornshellous Beta

So I'm pretty sure I'm bi! And I have a girlfriend! She was my best friend and now she is my girlfriend! I am happy now!


----------



## Jolty

Lorem Ipsum said:


> Question for all: when did you first kiss somebody of your own gender in a romantic way? Just currently incredibly depressed about the fact that nobody I know is gay and it's not looking as if that's going to change.


when I was 17
they remain the only person I have kissed so far.

would've been at 16 if we weren't both wusses lmao


----------



## Harlequin

In a _romantic_ way? Um. This morning? I've never really been into kissing, so even though _stuff_ happens I usually don't kiss, although... yeah this morning kissing happened.


----------



## Squornshellous Beta

I did not see that question! But now I did!

Today! Is the answer. Since... I've only been with my girlfriend for today. We haven't, like, _properly_ kissed yet, but we've been giving each other affectionate kisses on the cheek pretty much all day.
She's so adorable and lovely and _aaaaaaa_ :D


----------



## Aobaru

I've kissed a girl, but not a guy ;-; And it wasn't that great with the girl. 

Oh, and congrats Harley! :DD (lucky...)


----------



## Dinru

Never kissed a girl, but I've kissed a boy and I liked it.


----------



## Flora

Haven't kissed a girl; kissed a guy and I now regret it (but this is the QUILTBAG club and as such my being mentally screwed up does not belong in here)


----------



## Diz

I once kissed my now ex girlfriend. I also kissed on of my guy friends on a dare. As far as romantically being kissed by somebody of my gender, never =(

Edit: GO HARLEQUIN, YOU SEXY BEAST YOU!


----------



## Diz

I once kissed my now ex girlfriend. I also kissed on of my guy friends on a dare. As far as romantically being kissed by somebody of my gender, never =(


----------



## Minish

I was seventeen. Considering your age, Lorem, I really wouldn't be worried at all. I really never expected to be in a relationship with a girl until at _least_ university.


----------



## octobr

Lorem Ipsum said:


> Question for all: when did you first kiss somebody of your own gender in a romantic way? Just currently incredibly depressed about the fact that nobody I know is gay and it's not looking as if that's going to change.


Hahahaha w-weh.

/CRIES IN CORNER


----------



## octobr

WOW IS THIS BROKEN OR BROKEN


----------



## shy ♡

I narrowly avoided being kissed around 3 or so times by pure accident, simply because I am terrible at picking up social/flirting ques and had no idea that they were 'going in for a kiss' or whatever. Pretty thankful that I managed to avoid them, looking back, by pure accident. 

There's also one guy that I'm _pretty sure_ thought we were going steady... yeah.


----------



## Tailsy

... Wow, Pathos, that's mildly alarming. D: 

I've never kissed a girl! But considering I've never been attracted to a girl in real life who I have ever actually had a conversation with (sad face, I am so lame) this probably makes sense. That and I'm currently in a monogamous relationship so that would be bad news bears if it had happened in the last... year and almost eleven months (christ). 

(to clarify, while my signature claims that I have a crush on _every_ boy, I actually have crushes on _a lot of_ boys and _some_ girls. For some reason I'm hesitant to apply 'bisexual' to me, so I prefer Kinsey-2.)


----------



## Tailsy

... Wow, Pathos, that's mildly alarming. D: 

I've never kissed a girl! But considering I've never been attracted to a girl in real life who I have ever actually had a conversation with (sad face, I am so lame) this probably makes sense. That and I'm currently in a monogamous relationship so that would be bad news bears if it had happened in the last... year and almost eleven months (christ). 

(to clarify, while my signature claims that I have a crush on _every_ boy, I actually have crushes on _a lot of_ boys and _some_ girls. For some reason I'm hesitant to apply 'bisexual' to me, so I prefer Kinsey-2.)


----------



## Harlequin

Pathos said:


> There's also one guy that I'm _pretty sure_ thought we were going steady... yeah.


... how does that even ;;


----------



## shy ♡

Oh god well. We were both really young and uh, well. I'm just very not aware of these things! It actually sort of happened another time with one of the guys who tried to kiss me, but I don't think he thought we were dating, I think _other_ people thought we were dating. 

I don't honestly know how I didn't realize it at the time, but. Ah well.


----------



## Flora

GUYS, I HAVE TO SHARE A BIT OF QUILTBAG-RELATED FAIL WITH YOU GUYS:

SO I was thinking about when/if I get married (meaning "if I end up spending the rest of my life with a guy/if gay marriage becomes legal in my lifetime), and I was thinking "Hmm, maybe I can invite Doc to my wedding!" (Doc is my awesome English teacher who's everyone's figurative grandpa and we all love him to death <3)

And _then_ I thought "well Jeanine wouldn't have a problem with it so it would all be good! ...WAIT. That's not legal yet...and plus she doesn't like me back...I think."

I don't even know anymore *sighs*


----------



## ....

So I pretty much came out as a transgendered person to my mom.

Her response: "But I don't want to have a son."

*:(*


----------



## Cap'n Sofa

Mawile said:


> So I pretty much came out as a transgendered person to my mom.
> 
> Her response: "But I don't want to have a son."
> 
> *:(*


Well that was quite selfish of her. You're your own damn person and you can be who you damn well want to be.

Oh my god my choir director, Eric, is the most obviously gay person ever, and the senior prank was today, and my friend Chris covered the walls of the choir room in pictures of cabana boys. Eric thought he was going to get fired for a moment. He said he kept some of them.


----------



## Byrus

Guh, really pissed off at the moment. I fucking hate transphobic feminists. I've been seeing so much of them lately and it's really disheartening. They're so... vicious about it. also why do i keep reading rambling incoherent hateful rants that i know are just going to piss me off fuck



Mawile said:


> So I pretty much came out as a transgendered person to my mom.
> 
> Her response: "But I don't want to have a son."
> 
> *:(*


I'm really sorry. Is there any way you could convince her to let you see a counsellor? Try and explain to her how serious an issue this is to you and how much it's bothering you.


----------



## Aobaru

"FOX News Removes Transphobic Commentary on Chaz Bono's Transititon"

link


----------



## Flora

Aobaru said:


> "FOX News Removes Transphobic Commentary on Chaz Bono's Transititon"
> 
> link





> I was taught to consider Chaz Bono’s contention that she is male as a psychotic delusion—a fixed and false belief.


Where the hell did this guy get his degree?


----------



## Elliekat

To add to all the trans discussion, my friend came out to me today as FtM. They told me that they don't care what pronouns I use for them, though. But I'm happy that they trusted me enough to come out to me!
(Thanks to the internet, I knew not to ask awkward questions about it and the first thing I asked was 'so do you want me to use male pronouns for you?' Thanks internet!)


----------



## octobr

Flower Doll said:


> Where the hell did this guy get his degree?


----------



## Vladimir Putin's LJ

Lorem Ipsum said:


> Sooo... I told my friend that I loved him  last night with the handy use of a poem and... I'm not too sure how he took it. The fact that I implied that he was gay didn't go down too well and he said that I was "completely wrong" but he said that he "reaaaally liked" the poem. But I didn't see him at all today, though, and half-term means that I'm not going to see him for another week. This could be awkward o.o


That is a great way of telling him you love him, though! The poem itself is very nice and it was rather sweet of you. Did you read it to him?

I mean when I told my friend I loved him it was right after he abandoned me in front of his house and I was standing in his street in the rain babbling about my love for him over the phone, which may or may not have contributed to the rejection I got.
Three days later we had a rather civil and reasonable discussion about it over some ice cream and now we're still close mates though so it all worked out better than expected (we won't go into the fact that I can't seem to get over him at all yet) and I'm sure it will for you as well.

I presume the Fox News guy didn't get his degree at Elton John's Gay School for Gays (Gay), which as we know is where all reputable people went to. *dons subtle rainbow peaked cap, scoffs*


----------



## Squornshellous Beta

I'm really enjoying staying at Joanna's house. I'm getting woken with a kiss each morning and it's impossible to be unhappy after that.
Plus I've found she's pretty... _energetic_
If you know what I mean


----------



## Jolty

Lorem Ipsum said:


> No reading - a friend of mine (who will recur later in this post) posted it on his Facebook and the other guy read it, and guessed who it was about. So sort of an inadvertant declaration. Meeeh, I'm still shitting bricks about seeing him again on Monday.


he posted it on the guy's facebook?
seriously?????
did you like... let him do that or did he do it himself or what



> Should I take the opportunity and just be grateful that something has presented itself at least? Or should I let him down gently and just keep hoping that one of my other dotees is gay or bi?


a) Go out with a guy you don't really like, just because he likes you
b) Wait for a guy who you like and who likes you back
(hint: option b)

Don't ever be with anyone just to please them or just because they like you. It never ends well :(


as for the last bit I have no idea there man
but I suggest to not keep bringing up what he meant by it. just see how it goes????


----------



## Harlequin

Lorem Ipsum said:


> No reading - a friend of mine (who will recur later in this post) posted it on his Facebook and the other guy read it, and guessed who it was about. So sort of an inadvertant declaration. Meeeh, I'm still shitting bricks about seeing him again on Monday.
> 
> But, dilemma which I need some QUILTBAG advice on. Basically on Friday this gay guy who I've been getting on really well with and texting and constantly talking to over Facebook has invited me to the cinema, and although he's told one of my friends that it isn't a date, he's been acting really rather flirty towards me (example, I was talking about my offering to go to third base with another guy for some reason I can't remember and he said "well, he definitely should want to. in fact, most guys would with you ;)") and it's just me and him. So I'm expecting it, and taking it tentatively as a date. But basically, he's not the most attractive guy in the world. I mean, he's not bad at all, but he isn't in the same league as possibly-but-having-tea-with-Mr-Tumnus gay guy to whom I wrote the poem, or another guy who is bi but in a long-term and very complex relationship with a girl atm (which I will expand on) or other guys who are unfortunately straight. I mean... if he tries something on with me, what should I do? Should I take the opportunity and just be grateful that something has presented itself at least? Or should I let him down gently and just keep hoping that one of my other dotees is gay or bi?
> 
> Which brings me onto my final point. Was texting this bi guy last night (who is really adorable) and was explaining this dilemma to him, and here's the conversation for you:
> 
> Me: And there are no other free gay or bi guys that i fancy so...
> Him: See what happens
> Me: What do you mean?
> Him: I'm interested in you
> Me: Again, what do you mean?
> Him: Doesn't matter:)
> Me: No, seriously. Interested /like that/?
> Him: No:L like i wanna know what happens
> 
> The "interested in you" - was it really the innocent "I want to see what happens" or was it "like that" like I thought last night? Because if there's a chance with him then guy who asked me to the cinema unfortunately takes second place...
> 
> God, I dunno what to do... advice?


I'm the first to admit that I'm shallow. I find looks incredibly important -- they are, and there's no getting around that for me -- but at the same time I don't think looks are _everything_, especially if you're looking for a relationship rather than relatively anonymous, meaningless sex. I think the right question to ask yourself isn't "do I want to settle for someone less attractive" but "Am I attracted to him regardless of whether or not there are more attractive people around?"

I also think the other bi guy is being at least a little bit flirtatious, and that _something_ could possibly happen if you get into the right situations. Maybe. I don't know the situation of course, because I've only been exposed to it very briefly via text here, but that's what it looks like from this end.

Also, I'd like to say that regardless of whatever you decide to do, you should only do something when you're comfortable doing it. Don't rush into something just because you feel like you should. Do it because you _want_ to. There was an almost five year gap in between my most recent sexy-times and that's not because I've had no opportunities, it's because I have standards and I wanted to do things when _I_ wanted to do them. You're still young, and if nothing works itself out soon it's not the end of the world because there's still tons and tons of time left yet.


----------



## Elliekat

My brother is really getting on my nerves. First he doesn't believe that I'm ace, and then he says that gay people are disgusting. I hope I can change his mind so he doesn't grow up to be an ignorant bigot. Anyone got some interesting articles or statistics that I can use to convince him?


----------



## Flazeah

@Elliekat: there's an article here about asexuality you could reference. Read the "sex" part. Not saying it's a hundred percent accurate or whatever, but it seems to mention a wide variety of people's experiences with attraction and lack thereof - something to consider, hopefully? Just basically let your brother know asexuality exists. Hopefully he'll start to understand. As for the gay thing, there's a whole plethora of information out there! Could suggest he looks at AfterEllen and AfterElton to see just how many people use their site. There are lots of nice articles on both of those sites, too - have a general dig. There's also a very interesting and supportive column on AfterElton about bisexuality called Snails and Oysters. Sorry to hear your brother is being awkward; hopefully he'll learn.


----------



## Zhorken

I really liked this article by s.e. smith on Tiger Beatdown about asexuality, though it'd probably be more useful to show someone who _wants_ to learn more about it rather than someone who needs to be convinced not to deny its existence.


----------



## Aobaru

Can asexual people still have sex and enjoy it? Because I was watching _Dexter_ and he's pretty much asexual, but he has sex with like three women (of course, choose _women_) over the course of the show.


----------



## shy ♡

Aobaru said:


> Can asexual people still have sex and enjoy it? Because I was watching _Dexter_ and he's pretty much asexual, but he has sex with like three women (of course, choose _women_) over the course of the show.


Yes, asexual people can have sex and enjoy it. As for Dexter, I consider him to be demisexual.


----------



## Harlequin

Demisexual...?

In other news I'm twenty. JS.


----------



## Diz

Tennis is a good way to lose weight.

Go to the movies with him!,

And if you get the chance, just have a heart to heart talk with him. Find out if he does like you back! Or ask some of his other friends?


----------



## ....

Mom: You don't wish you _were a boy_, right?
Me: I do. 

Mom: You're not gonna be one of those people who gets a _sex change_, are you?
Me: ...no

:(


----------



## MentheLapin

My mom made me get a haircut so I can't style it like I used to, because that style was slightly camp, or that's what I seem to be getting from her.

Another step back from ever coming out, I guess.


----------



## Aobaru

Lorem Ipsum said:


> On the negative side though (i.e. he doesn't like me back), he still goes on about other guys he fancies, some of them more than others, and seems constantly to reinforce the type of guy he likes - myself not fitting the characteristic of having a "perfectly toned body" (which btw I'm trying to amend over the summer - would tennis be a good way to lose weight?). Derp, QUILTBAG, I'm in need of your help once again. What's your advice?


So happy for you, Lorem! :3 

Yes, tennis is a great aerobic exercise that will help you lose weight~ Along with running, walking, biking, swimming etc.  Plus, it makes you feel really good about yourself afterwards! :D

In other news:



			
				HuffPo said:
			
		

> The New York state Assembly approved same-sex marriage on Wednesday and the bill is likely to face a vote in the Senate on Friday, where it only needs support from one more senator to pass.


link


----------



## Lady Grimdour

Okay, may as well.

Lorem, he's either a) suggesting that you tone up, or b) suggesting that you make a move.

He's baiting you. If he's going on about how he loves fit guys and yet talks to you like a lovesick puppy, he could be waiting for you to ask if you're his type. Or that he'd prefer that you were toned. Either way, no man, gay or straight, talks about his outings with a friend to his parents like he sounds like he does.

BUT ANYWAY. Here's my dilemma.

I think I may be trans. Yup, that's right. The guy with the metal winged skull on his signature may be trans. BUT it's not that easy. I've accepted my crossdressing, hell I even went out in cosplay as the Baroness in the London Expo last year. Didn't last long since the heels killed me. But anyway. I also like being a man. I still like being that loud, wild-haired guy everyone knows.

So far my decision has been to go part-time once I head off to university. I've had enough practice (since 11, I think?), but I have these moments where I think it's just a fad; an after-effect of frequenting 4chan. It's not even a sexual thing, either. I've no idea on this, but at the same time I'm dead set. There's also the problem of breaking it to my roommates. Of course, my parents will never EVER find out about this, since I don't plan on going full-time just yet.

So, thoughts?


----------



## Eloi

> I think I may be trans. Yup, that's right. The guy with the metal winged skull on his signature may be trans. BUT it's not that easy. I've accepted my crossdressing, hell I even went out in cosplay as the Baroness in the London Expo last year. Didn't last long since the heels killed me. But anyway. I also like being a man. I still like being that loud, wild-haired guy everyone knows.


There is plenty of boisterous women, your personality is not a component of your gender identity, its just your personality. If you are a loud, wild-haired person, that doesn't matter as far as your gender goes. So, be that girl with the metal winged skill on her signature if you feel that is who you are.



> So far my decision has been to go part-time once I head off to university. I've had enough practice (since 11, I think?), but I have these moments where I think it's just a fad; an after-effect of frequenting 4chan. It's not even a sexual thing, either. I've no idea on this, but at the same time I'm dead set. There's also the problem of breaking it to my roommates. Of course, my parents will never EVER find out about this, since I don't plan on going full-time just yet.


Well, the most important thing you want to do is not wait. Don't wait around. Male-gendered behaviors and ways of carrying yourself sink very deep, and get harder to unlearn, as the body decays into a form you dislike (assuming you have some body dysphoria).  So yeah. Passive angst is relatively more deadly than passionate action.


----------



## shy ♡

Grimdour said:


> Okay, may as well.
> 
> Lorem, he's either a) suggesting that you tone up, or b) suggesting that you make a move.
> 
> He's baiting you. If he's going on about how he loves fit guys and yet talks to you like a lovesick puppy, he could be waiting for you to ask if you're his type. Or that he'd prefer that you were toned. Either way, no man, gay or straight, talks about his outings with a friend to his parents like he sounds like he does.
> 
> BUT ANYWAY. Here's my dilemma.
> 
> I think I may be trans. Yup, that's right. The guy with the metal winged skull on his signature may be trans. BUT it's not that easy. I've accepted my crossdressing, hell I even went out in cosplay as the Baroness in the London Expo last year. Didn't last long since the heels killed me. But anyway. I also like being a man. I still like being that loud, wild-haired guy everyone knows.
> 
> So far my decision has been to go part-time once I head off to university. I've had enough practice (since 11, I think?), but I have these moments where I think it's just a fad; an after-effect of frequenting 4chan. It's not even a sexual thing, either. I've no idea on this, but at the same time I'm dead set. There's also the problem of breaking it to my roommates. Of course, my parents will never EVER find out about this, since I don't plan on going full-time just yet.
> 
> So, thoughts?


If it's only some of the time, you could be bigender. Also! It doesn't really have to do with how you dress! I'm totally a dude and I like heels and stuff! I guess that's considered crossdressing but I just don't believe clothing has a gender.


----------



## Lady Grimdour

Here's the thing: my personality is that of a loud-mouthed guy. Emphasis on the guy. I've gone into what people call girlmode, and it's horribly unnatural in that state. Like one aspect of my personality shifts to another whenever I get into that girlmode type of thinking, and I don't even have to consciously switch. Basically, I can't be my current self as a girl, I have to switch into another.

I don't think it's delved into dissociative personality disorder just yet, because I still feel like me when I switch, just a different me.


----------



## shy ♡

Grimdour said:


> Here's the thing: my personality is that of a loud-mouthed guy. Emphasis on the guy. I've gone into what people call girlmode, and it's horribly unnatural in that state. Like one aspect of my personality shifts to another whenever I get into that girlmode type of thinking, and I don't even have to consciously switch. Basically, I can't be my current self as a girl, I have to switch into another.
> 
> I don't think it's delved into dissociative personality disorder just yet, because I still feel like me when I switch, just a different me.


Okay, I'm gonna try and decode what you're saying, because it's confusing me a bit. There is no such thing as a 'guy' personality. I'm not sure what you're saying here - that your personality feels like a guy, or that you do guy things? I don't understand. Because you can do things that are 'guy things', and be a girl, or vice versa. I am stereotypically very girly. But that doesn't matter! You can be yourself as a girl. You can be yourself as a guy. It's not what you do, it's how you feel.

If you're saying that you don't _feel_ like a girl the way you are now - then that's fine! Understandable. Maybe you feel like a girl at some times and not others. That probably means you are bigender. If you are saying you can't be a girl now because you do things that are too masculine? That's just incorrect. 

Please clarify yourself! I'm confused. I'm pretty sure what you're saying is you are not female now, but you are sometimes. Yes?

Also, just to jump onto a whole other issue, DID is a very controversial diagnoses and I'm pretty sure you don't have it because most people who are diagnosed with it disagree with the diagnoses and don't think it is a disorder at all. But that is another issue, yay.


----------



## Lady Grimdour

My personality right now feels like a guy personality. As in I don't feel like a girl. At all. Like I said, I have a switch. As a girl, I can comfortably do "guy things" like belch, but I feel like I have to be one or the other at times. I think it is a case of being bigender.

Still, there's the case of dealing with it. I can't just waltz into the University dorms wearing my overcoat and come out wearing my sundress or vice versa without anyone noticing. How do people "come out"? Hell, the bigender thing hasn't even sunk in properly yet.


----------



## shy ♡

Hmm. Yeah. It is definitely difficult to deal with. My suggestion is to let it er, sink in for a while, and think about it, and see what you want to do in terms of telling people. Generally, I choose to tell people if the dysphoria is getting too difficult for me not to tell them, or if there is a specific requirement I need from them, i.e.... I need help from them in some issue - like if I were in uni, for some sort of opposite-sex housing. Oh, and coming out is, for me at least, _always_ difficult - especially if it's something people haven't heard of, and being bigender is something many people haven't heard of.

Otherwise you could also try like, looking stuff up online, in terms of bigender/trans support. Which is always helpful.


----------



## Shiny Grimer

I... still dont know wat it means to feel like a certain qender.

Like, sometimes I feel like I sould ave been born a male, but dat as to do more wit societal expectations and suc dan any innate maleness (if suc a tinq exists). I am female and I quess I identify as a woman, but I dont _feel_ like a woman.

Ive never found a qood explanation for dis. All de posts by trans people dat Ive read o <o, I just am a woman/man> but I dont know wat it means to be a woman or a man. A lot of trans women like wearin make up and doin stereotypically qirly tinqs, but dats te tinq - stereotypical. I dont tink beinq a woman means doinq traditionally feminine tinqs, nor beinq a man means doinq traditionally masculine tinqs. My womanliness is defined by my qenitals. If tomorrow I woke up in a male body, I wouldnt keep sayinq Im a woman because... I dont feel like my womanliness as to do wit any part of _me_.

Ive tried readinq trou some posts ere but dis tread is 11 paqes and not all of dem are about beinq trans so if ders anyone wo could elp me understand, I would really appreciate it. And I mean trans like, you were assiqned male at birt but you are a woman, sometinq like dat. Wat does beinq a woman or a man mean?


----------



## Eloi

Well, its kind of defining in negatives. You know you *aren't* the gender you were born as because being that gender feels wrong. As in, your body doesn't match up to your aesthetic standards because you don't have the standards for that type of body being imposed on it, but instead, of the gender you feel you are for some reason. Your behaviors, unlearned behaviors mind you, are frowned upon because they aren't meshing with the gender you were born in  because you are the gender you feel you are by default, deep inside. 

And then as your life progresses, you start to feel wrong. Very wrong. Socializing with people isn't even something you want to do anymore it feels so wrong. Total isolation is preferable to those wrong feelings. However, that wrong feeling has a counterpart: a right feeling about another gender. 

You feel happy when you are your gender (hence why many trans* people do stereotypical things; not because they feel they have to, or they do them and thus they think they are trans*, they do them because gender expression is something kept from them so long that doing stereotypical things are a pleasure to do so long as they are not detrimental overall)- which you may discover this happy feeling of being associated  with the gender by other people gendering you as what you feel you are before you come out or role-playing as the gender you feel you are in childhood fantasies - and this happy feeling can be thus expounded upon to make you feel right by universally presenting yourself as the gender that you feel you are makes you happy.  And since this doesn't actively harm anyone unless they choose to believe it does without any cause to do so, I don't see the reason why trans* people can't live as the gender they are comfortable as, regardless of origin.


----------



## Shiny Grimer

Eloi said:


> As in, your body doesn't match up to your aesthetic standards because you don't have the standards for that type of body being imposed on it, but instead, of the gender you feel you are for some reason.


I understand not likinq de body you were born wit, but dat wasnt wat I was talkin about. Der are women assiqned male at birt wo dont qo trou surqery because dey are apparently okay wit deir body but feel like dey are women.



> Your behaviors, unlearned behaviors mind you, are frowned upon because they aren't meshing with the gender you were born in  because you are the gender you feel you are by default, deep inside.


Dis seems more like a problem wit society. All de times I wanted to be a boy, it was because society qave boys a better not deal. Doesnt dis mean dat if all of a sudden, society became totally acceptable wit deir beavior, dat deyd be okay? 



> You feel happy when you are your gender (hence why many trans* people do stereotypical things; not because they feel they have to, or they do them and thus they think they are trans*, they do them because gender expression is something kept from them so long that doing stereotypical things are a pleasure to do so long as they are not detrimental overall)- which you may discover this happy feeling of being associated  with the gender by other people gendering you as what you feel you are before you come out or role-playing as the gender you feel you are in childhood fantasies -


But dats wat I dont understand. Wy qo <I am a boy> instead of <I enjoy tinqs artificially assiqned only to boys>? (like I said, I am talkin about people wo are okay wit deir bodies and dont ave a particular desire to underqo surqery) Wy not do away wit de idea of qender? Ultimately Id muc rater live in a society were I can do wat I want reqardless of my qenitals. It just sounds like tradinq one set of qender roles for anoter dat you appen to be more comfortable wit.

To see if yuo can understand my confusion, take a person assiqned male wo enjoys activities traditionally male. No traditionally female activities. owever, dey identify as a woman. Wat does dis mean? Wat does beinq a woman mean to dat person?


----------



## Jolty

ignoring the fact that your typing is giving me a headache......

so
a person with xy chromosomes enjoys "male" activities but identifies as a woman
identifying as whatever doesn't have anything to do with what you enjoy or don't enjoy, but just what /you/ feel you are

you can do the manliest things ever and still feel like a woman, and vice versa
it is hard to explain but it's just how your brain works I spose.


----------



## Eloi

... said:


> I understand not likinq de body you were born wit, but dat wasnt wat I was talkin about. Der are women assiqned male at birt wo dont qo trou surqery because dey are apparently okay wit deir body but feel like dey are women.


There's a lot more to your body than your genitalia, and Genitalia Reconstruction Surgery is not magical, its bloody expensive, and may leave a lot to be desired.



> Dis seems more like a problem wit society. All de times I wanted to be a boy, it was because society qave boys a better not deal. Doesnt dis mean dat if all of a sudden, society became totally acceptable wit deir beavior, dat deyd be okay?


I said behaviors that *aren't learned*. As in, I just do feminine things without consciously doing so. I would also like to note that no trans* person gets a boost in social status from transition. They all drop very low on the social hierarchy, so that is not a motive at all.



> But dats wat I dont understand. Wy qo <I am a boy> instead of <I enjoy tinqs artificially assiqned only to boys>?


Because its not artificially assigned, and its not just activities, its your entire identity one has feelings about.




> (like I said, I am talkin about people wo are okay wit deir bodies and dont ave a particular desire to underqo surqery)


Like I said, there is more to your body than your genitalia. 



> Wy not do away wit de idea of qender?


Because there is no way to do so that has presented itself in practical life?


> Ultimately Id muc rater live in a society were I can do wat I want reqardless of my qenitals.


Me too, ..., me too.



> It just sounds like tradinq one set of qender roles for anoter dat you appen to be more comfortable wit.


Yes, but the gender identity comes first, the roles and activities usually follow, not the other way around.



> To see if yuo can understand my confusion, take a person assiqned male wo enjoys activities traditionally male. No traditionally female activities. owever, dey identify as a woman. Wat does dis mean? Wat does beinq a woman mean to dat person?


Again, gender identity comes first, roles and activities *usually* follow, but if they don't, that's okay, as gender identity is the only thing that matters for purpose of gender identification.


----------



## Eclipse

Sorry to randomly pop up like this, but I need some help. This explains it pretty much but just in case tl;dr, my family are anti-gay Christians, and I am trying to convince them that I am justified in believing I can still be a Christian and support gay rights. Help?


----------



## Eloi

Eclipse said:


> Sorry to randomly pop up like this, but I need some help. This explains it pretty much but just in case tl;dr, my family are anti-gay Christians, and I am trying to convince them that I am justified in believing I can still be a Christian and support gay rights. Help?


Here's a helpful starting point: http://www.wouldjesusdiscriminate.org/intro.html as well as http://www.wouldjesusdiscriminate.org/biblical_evidence.html.


----------



## Blastoise Fortooate

Eloi said:


> Here's a helpful starting point: http://www.wouldjesusdiscriminate.org/intro.html as well as http://www.wouldjesusdiscriminate.org/biblical_evidence.html.


You have absolutely no idea how much this will help my pro-homosexual arguments. :D


----------



## Eloi

Blastoise Fortooate said:


> You have absolutely no idea how much this will help my pro-homosexual arguments. :D


No problem! =D -super QUILTBAG hug- Religious studies is a topic that I'm interested in and I often try to find alternate viewpoints in mainstream Abrahamic religions' holy scriptures to help LGBTQUIA/QUILTBAG people in those religions and maybe build room in my heart for it someday.


----------



## shy ♡

Re: ellipses, it has nothing to do with enjoying stereotypically boy/girl things. As Jolty said. And I'll say now, I enjoy many varied things, and I don't define them by gender because they have no brain and cannot have a gender. So. 

The thing is, _I_ have a brain and I know I am a dude. I really have to say that your not understanding that is due to your privilege. *shrugs*


----------



## Shiny Grimer

Jolty said:


> ignoring the fact that your typing is giving me a headache......


I am very sorry; the keyboard I am typing on is missing a bunch of letters.



> There's a lot more to your body than your genitalia, and Genitalia Reconstruction Surgery is not magical, its bloody expensive, and may leave a lot to be desired.


I am not talking about those cases; the genitalia was just a specific example. I am talking about people who wouldn't want to chane their bodies. Like a man wit long air, narrow shoulders, wide hips, breasts, as well as a vagina and other physical characteristics called feminine. Even if there were some magic procedure that would allow him to look totally masculine without any repercussions (no hormones, surgery, it is literally magic), this man wouldn't want tat.



> I said behaviors that *aren't learned*. As in, I just do feminine things without consciously doing so. I would also like to note that no trans* person gets a boost in social status from transition. They all drop very low on the social hierarchy, so that is not a motive at all.


Thats sort of what I don't understand either. I instinctively do lots of thins labeled masculine (and believe me wen I say I spend a lot of the time wishing I had been born male), but I don't... really think tat the behaviors are actually masculine. I can be a woman that acts in a masculine way but ultimately I don't even think those thins are actually masculine. Theres the rub, I guess?



> Because there is no way to do so that has presented itself in practical life?


Stop labeling certain actions, dress, roles, ways of thinking etc. as masculine/feminine? Make whatever set of chromosomes you ave as important as whether you ave unattached or attached earlobes?



> Again, gender identity comes first, roles and activities *usually* follow, but if they don't, that's okay, as gender identity is the only thing that matters for purpose of gender identification.





> you can do the manliest things ever and still feel like a woman, and vice versa
> it is hard to explain but it's just how your brain works I spose.





> Re: ellipses, it has nothing to do with enjoying stereotypically boy/girl things. As Jolty said. And I'll say now, I enjoy many varied things, and I don't define them by gender because they have no brain and cannot have a gender. So.
> 
> The thing is, I have a brain and I know I am a dude. I really have to say that your not understanding that is due to your privilege. *shrugs*


gender identity is just one of those things I'll never be able to understand, I suppose. In any case I got very weak gender identity because I've never felt very... womanly, or even manly. Tanks for tryin' to 'elp me understand.


----------



## Byrus

... said:


> Stop labeling certain actions, dress, roles, ways of thinking etc. as masculine/feminine? Make whatever set of chromosomes you ave as important as whether you ave unattached or attached earlobes?
> 
> gender identity is just one of those things I'll never be able to understand, I suppose. In any case I got very weak gender identity because I've never felt very... womanly, or even manly. Tanks for tryin' to 'elp me understand.


 Well, there you go then. Gender identity isn't very important to you, so you can't seem to grasp that it's extremely important and a sensitive subject to other people. 

Not meaning that in a hostile way, and I'm sorry if it came off like that. I can't think of any other way to put it. There's things about other people's gender identity that I can't understand either, but I just accept that other people have different views and feelings on it and leave it at that.

Also, your typing is making me laugh. =P Hope you get a new keyboard soon. Maybe try copying and pasting some letters in the meantime?


----------



## Shiny Grimer

O no yea, I know identity is important to people and my lack of compreension doesnt stop me from tryin to act like an ally. I just like understandin and I feel like I could be better support if I knew more about wat i was supportin.

As for keyboard, its only my laptop. :P I am missin a few of letters (g h ' backspace esc) and unfortunately are common enough that copy pastin is a chore. But enough about me and my issues - back to QUILTBAG!


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## octobr

@...'s question:
Who knows, man. Who frikkin knows.

See, here's the thing ... I know I'm a guy. Just know it. I don't even question it anymore, it's just a thing. I have no idea why. However, I also do a lot of non-'masculine' (bullshit word, really) things: I love cartoons, disney princesses, dress-up, ballet, I wear tiaras, et cetera et cetera et cetera. But it's not shaking my feeling that I'm a guy. 

It's just one of those things. I don't even know how to explain it. Kinda hard to relate unless you're going through it, I guess?


----------



## Eloi

> It's just one of those things. I don't even know how to explain it. Kinda hard to relate unless you're going through it, I guess?


This probably should've been my answer but I am waaay too stubborn and intent on explaining the inexplicable. =P But yeah, that's pretty much it. There is very little to understand. Certain people feel a certain way really, really deeply and you just have to trust that they have those feelings.


----------



## Eclipse

Eloi said:


> Here's a helpful starting point: http://www.wouldjesusdiscriminate.org/intro.html as well as http://www.wouldjesusdiscriminate.org/biblical_evidence.html.


Ah, thank you so much. Unfortunately, my family is still not swayed, but I'll have to respect their viewpoint, I guess... sadly, I can't say they view me the same way. This will still help in my arguments though, so thank you again!


----------



## shy ♡

VROOOOM said:


> @...'s question:
> Who knows, man. Who frikkin knows.
> 
> See, here's the thing ... I know I'm a guy. Just know it. I don't even question it anymore, it's just a thing. I have no idea why. However, I also do a lot of non-'masculine' (bullshit word, really) things: I love cartoons, disney princesses, dress-up, ballet, I wear tiaras, et cetera et cetera et cetera. But it's not shaking my feeling that I'm a guy.
> 
> It's just one of those things. I don't even know how to explain it. Kinda hard to relate unless you're going through it, I guess?


----------



## Eloi

Eclipse said:


> Ah, thank you so much. Unfortunately, my family is still not swayed, but I'll have to respect their viewpoint, I guess... sadly, I can't say they view me the same way. This will still help in my arguments though, so thank you again!


No prob again. ;)

And here is one for trans* people caught in a similar situation: http://www.tsroadmap.com/mental/spirit.html


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## Dannichu

Eclipse said:


> Sorry to randomly pop up like this, but I need some help. This explains it pretty much but just in case tl;dr, my family are anti-gay Christians, and I am trying to convince them that I am justified in believing I can still be a Christian and support gay rights. Help?


This might help, too. The whole website is pretty much about that issue, but the pdf on that page sounds especially relevent. Good luck?


----------



## Lady Grimdour

Jumped a milestone today; bought something girly in public! On my own!

Sounds creepy, I know, but I got a corset from the British Red Cross (£3 it was) and sadly, it won't fit. I sound like a damn perv but anyway, yeah. Goddamn it those things don't let you breathe, even with the zip halfway up. The bones were just plastic, too. I've taken it off and gone manly about 20 minutes ago and I still can't breathe.

Anyway, yeah. I'm not a UK 8, as I thought I was.


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## octobr

Grimdour said:


> I got a corset from the British Red Cross (£3 it was


AW
YEAH


----------



## Harlequin

I'm going to second Danni's Soulforce link! I think it's a great resource for parents, family and friends of Christian QUILTBAGs!

European men are confusing. _I can't tell whether they're gay or just European and it kills me._

That is all.


----------



## Diz

Are you the oldest sibling? I've found that parents are more strict to the oldest sibling and kinda expect the younger ones to follow your example or something.

In other Quiltbag news, I have a crush on a couple again. As in, I love them both and they are dating and it would be totally cool if I somehow got into that relationship myself, but I don't know how to bring it up and seriously doubt that either party would actually be into it.


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## Lady Grimdour

Then bring it up. Ask them why are you being stifled when your sisters are being allowed to go wherever the hell they want?


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## Saith

Hwy guys, I guess I'm joining your ranks now, huh?
Whatever, now I'm a transwoman. Joy.


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## Diz

Congrats! Welcome to the club! Here's a funfetti cupcake! I brought enough for everybody!

Sit down! Take your shoes off! Tell us more!


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## Saith

Oh thanks but, uh, this isn't a happy realization.
I mean sure, I'm ecstatic about the future possibilities, but practically it's going to give me nothing but grief. I mean, I was... Happy(?) as a guy. Maybe not quite satisfied, and I do go through week-long periods of hiding in a sleeping bag in the kitchen, crying my eyes out becauseI'M UGLY AND NO ONE SHOULD SEE ME AND EWWWWWWbut I figured it was just a teenage thing, you know?
But after reading through the SA Trans-Megathread a couple months back, it made me start thinking. I mean, I'd known _about_ transpeople for a while, obviously. But it had always been Something Other People Do, you know? Like being an astronaut or killing your father. I've got a bunch of trans-friends in real life (a club in Cardiff that I used to go to fairly frequently was a bit of a 'tranny hotspot'), and it's not like they'd kept how it felt a secret from me, but it still always felt alien to me. Kind of like reading this book called Filth. It's written in a Scottish accent, and I know it's a bad analogy, but still. It was like that. But anyway, after a couple months of, I guess, denial, I started thinking long and hard and realized that it cleared some shit up.
That time in comp when I cut my hair into a bob the day before work experience? I stood up in front of a class of kids my age, five times a day for two weeks, giving no shits about what they thought of me because it just felt so good!
The fact that when someone tells me that I have a 'lady-face', I can't even formulate a snappy response because I'm doing my best not to giggle. Even if it's meant as an insult.
When my sister's boyfriend, upon meeting me for the first time, said 'Oh wow, you look just like Arora but with brown hair and a beard!' (I'd been in Cardiff for three days and hadn't had time to shave. Or wash. Q.Q)
It explained these sorts of things, and helped somewhat to explain my self-esteem issues and the fact that I hate people looking at me. Also the whole crying thing.
Honestly, when I even think about maybe one day transitioning, I get all giddy, I giggle, and people give me weird looks. Which they should, because I suddenly get a weird look and start laughing for no reason.

But then it hits me. All the hardships. I come from a, uh, pretty conservative family. I think. I'm not sure. No one in my family is religious, and they all claim to be hippy-liberals and shit. Hell, my grandfather smuggled weed back in the sixties! But they still have their prejudices, and homophobia is one of them. Transgender comes under that umbrella to them, probably.
Hell, my cousin Cory, who I'm closer to than practically anybody in my family, had a conversation with me just last week about a girl in his hostel who was kicked out for being trans. The worst part is, he went on to say that he didn't understand it AND THAT HE ENDED UP CAMPING WITH HER AND A BUNCH OF PEOPLE WHO _SHOT THE GROUND AROUND HER FEET WITH *A REAL HANDGUN* TO SCARE HER OUT OF THE HOSTEL WHEN THEY GOT BACK._ Fucking hell.

Anywho, he's the nicest, most open person in my family. Yeah.
Then there's the added costs and the fact that transpeople have a 70% unemployment rate and the fact that I'll only have enough courage once I'm independent, and to do that I'll need to abandon my siblings to my heroine addicted crack-whore of a mother and ugggghhhhh.

So yeah, sorry to be a downer (and sorry to write such a long post, too, oh my god), but that's basically how I feel.
I need a hug. Q.Q


----------



## Dannichu

*giant hug*

I'm really, really sorry to hear about your family and things, but huge props to you for figuring it out. Absolute best of luck with everything from here on :)


----------



## Saith

Thanks. :)
Ugh, I just hope I can even manage to swallow my pride enough to get a therapist.


----------



## Lady Grimdour

>Cardiff

We need to meet up sometime if you're still in the area, especially before I move to Aberystwyth. I'll give you that hug you needed.


----------



## Saith

I moved to Bournemouth a couple weeks back, I'm afraid. :<
(It's actually a really nice place and really diverse and, strangely enough, rather... Open? Trannies walk the streets like it ain't no thang, and no one bothers them or anything, other than to ask the time.)


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## Minish

Saith said:


> I moved to Bournemouth a couple weeks back, I'm afraid. :<
> (It's actually a really nice place and really diverse and, strangely enough, rather... Open? Trannies walk the streets like it ain't no thang, and no one bothers them or anything, other than to ask the time.)


Hey, uh, could you maybe not use slurs like 'tranny' here? You might be comfortable with it, but most other people are certainly not and apart from being considered extremely obscene it's also a very common trigger. Please be more considerate, yeah?


----------



## Adriane

Saith said:


> I moved to Bournemouth a couple weeks back, I'm afraid. :<
> (It's actually a really nice place and really diverse and, strangely enough, rather... Open? *Trannies* walk the streets like it ain't no thang, and no one bothers them or anything, other than to ask the time.)


"Tranny" is generally considered to be an offensive slur, so please try to refrain from using it. I understand you don't mean any harm, but it's better that you're aware.


----------



## Saith

Sorry, I'm used to the SA thread. I'll try to refrain from saying things like that, here.


----------



## Harlequin

In relations to trans* and Cardiff, are you by any chance talking about Live Lounge? I've seen two absolutely fierce transwomen in there quite often. But also! I think just realising it is a good thing, even if you're feeling a bit down about it at the moment. I mean, if it leads to you being happier in the long run that's awesome, right?


----------



## Saith

Well I was on about 4Play myself. :) It's _technically_ a gay-club, but it's such a great place that it's not _just_ a gay club, if that makes sense?

And thanks, I'm pretty sure it's a good thing, too. It's just gonna bring me so much grief, argh.


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## Lady Grimdour

Not if you don't let it.

I say just have fun with it. Enjoy your new life.


----------



## Saith

But... It isn't a new life.
It's just the realisation that what I'm feeling isn't just teenage angst.
I'm not going to grow out of it.

Again, sorry to be a downer to everybody. D:


----------



## Harlequin

Saith said:


> Well I was on about 4Play myself. :) It's _technically_ a gay-club, but it's such a great place that it's not _just_ a gay club, if that makes sense?
> 
> And thanks, I'm pretty sure it's a good thing, too. It's just gonna bring me so much grief, argh.


Oh, okay, 4PLay. That's the one on the street with WOW and Pulse, yeah? I've walked past there a few times but I've never been in. I've eaten lunch at Pulse once, though! [I don't do many 'gay' things, gay people are scary. The gayest club I visit is Live Lounge, which is a straight club that for some reason is a haven for gays.]

It's going to be hard, yeah, but life is hard. If it wasn't this it'd be something else, and at least you know now so you can start doing something about it! I'm not trans so I honestly don't know what it feels like, but one of the things I've read is that everything starts to feel better once you're doing something about it. So. IDK.


----------



## Saith

Harlequin said:


> Oh, okay, 4PLay. That's the one on the street with WOW and Pulse, yeah? I've walked past there a few times but I've never been in. I've eaten lunch at Pulse once, though! [I don't do many 'gay' things, gay people are scary. The gayest club I visit is Live Lounge, which is a straight club that for some reason is a haven for gays.]


Yeah, but I just liked the name. Here in Bournemouth I go to DYMK. It's not as good as other places (although it does have a bubble machine!), but the name is D.oes Y.our M.other K.now, and I think that's too cute. :3



> It's going to be hard, yeah, but life is hard. If it wasn't this it'd be something else, and at least you know now so you can start doing something about it! I'm not trans so I honestly don't know what it feels like, but one of the things I've read is that everything starts to feel better once you're doing something about it. So. IDK.


Thanks man, and yeah you're definitely right. My girlfriend's been helping me out a lot, and I've done a couple things that are relatively unnoticeable, and other things that delve into TMI, and it does feel better. But there's always the knowledge that, well, fuck.


----------



## Vladimir Putin's LJ

Er, hey guys. I have a sort of situation that isn't that bad I guess but I'd like advice on it maybe if possible. This post is pretty long and a little TMI but I'll post a tl;dr at the end.

So as most of you know, I'm a transman, and I have actually come out to my mother about this, but she's convinced it's just phase. The thing is that I didn't want to hurt her, so I sort of downplayed my gender issues and said that it could be a phase, yeah, maybe, and I realize now that that was a huge mistake.

My mother is a very nice person, and generally open, but she did grow up during the far-right dictatorship in Portugal, so she has occasional slip-ups. She's not homophobic or anything, just a bit... out of touch, I guess. But anyway.

The thing is, I told her about two years ago and my feelings haven't decreased at all, if anything, I'm more convinced than ever that I'm not female. Apart from the superficial (but very important, of course!) things like wanting a male body (and subsequent dismay at the shitty bottom-surgery procedures, though there's been some interesting advances in the field and I'm pretty confident it'll get much better in our lifetime), there's just something in my mind that says I'm male.

I don't conform to gender stereotypes (I love baking and I enjoy sewing and musicals and all that), so it's not like I think I'm male because I don't enjoy offensively stereotypical "girl" things like shopping and what have you, but I just can't imagine being thought of as female by others the rest of my life. The rare times I've been called "he" didn't make me feel especially wonderful, they just felt right, in the same way that being called "she" isn't as horrible as it simply seems wrong. Does that make sense? I'm happy with who I am as a person, but I feel like everyone else is making a mistake when they label me as female.

Of course, the body thing is important too, not just because it's exactly what alters people's perception of me. The thing is that I see a lot of transguys say they want to be "pretty boys" or what have you, and that's great for them, but often they seem to want to look like Bill Kaulitz or Gackt, who are just unquestionably androgynous. I think it's wonderful that they want to be androgynous (though tbh often it seems a bit like they want to conform to the whole yaoi bishounen thing), but even that isn't really enough. When I see men, even if they're not conventionally handsome, I feel a sort of jealous twinge because I feel like physically, I got cheated out of everything. I can't imagine growing older with a female body; I can only imagine growing older as man and dealing with the problems that entails, like balding and kicking young kids off my lawn dangnabbit.

The worst part is that I wasn't especially dysphoric until recently, because instead of hating my body, I just sort of felt detached from it. I didn't really mind what happened to it, because I felt as though it wasn't _mine_, so I didn't really care when I cut myself (in a particularly embarrassingly emo moment of my life) because it wasn't my body. I didn't care that I was chubby because it wasn't my body.
But I've thought about it logically and I've sort of accepted the obvious fact that this is the only body I'll ever have, and it's making me increasingly uncomfortable. I have a binder and I realize I only really feel comfortable going out with it on, even though I hide it from my mother.

The problem with my mother is that she has this train of thought a lot of people seem to have and that I simply don't understand, which is that transitioning will somehow change who I am on a fundamental level. It'll make me finally be comfortable in my body, but it won't change my personality apart from probably making me more confident, but she seems to think it'll turn me into a completely different person. This makes it very hard for me to have a serious discussion with her because I feel like she thinks she has to say goodbye to her child, when it's still _me_. I don't get what the problem is, but I know it bothers her and I don't want to hurt her. She has stated she'll still love me whatever I do in the future, but. I feel bad about it. I feel like remaining female will make it easier for everyone, including me, and especially since I'm primarily attracted to men, but I'll never be completely happy.

TMI: even on a sexual level, even though I'm very interested in men physically, I'm kind of terrified of ever having a relationship because although I'd love to touch, I don't think I could bear to be touched. Or be naked in this hypothetical man's presence. The thought alone makes me squirm horribly.

tl;dr my mother attaches immense importance to who I am on the outside and I'm scared of hurting her by living my own life and physically transitioning to male. But I'll be going to university soon, and I feel like I shouldn't limit myself on account of my parents because, well, I'm going to truly start living my own life. But I don't want to hurt her.
So my final question is how I should broach this subject, I guess. I'm in turmoil but I feel like I can't continue putting up this fake front for much longer.

Also: I'm going to join my university's LGBTQ society, and I obviously don't pass as male yet (I look pretty convincing with a haircut and a binder but the voice is treacherous). Does anyone have any experience with non-passing trans people in LGBTQ societies? I'm asking because there's a worrying amount of transphobia in the gay community for some weird reason and I don't want to make my life harder than it has to be. I don't even have a set male name or anything, because I feel like I'd like my mother's input. Argh.

Sorry about this post being so selfish :c 

Saith: I know how you feel about the whole "discovering it isn't a reason to celebrate" because I feel pretty much the same, but I think we should keep our ultimate goals in mind and use that to carry us through. Your situation sounds a lot harder than mine by a lot, so I feel really inadequate giving any advice, but I'd just like to wish you the best of luck and sympathy, for what that's worth.


----------



## shy ♡

Vlad: Your mom's opinion seems to stem from lack of information/misinformation, and a probable desire to stay that way. My mom is the same way and she doesn't want to change. If your mom does, you can find trans-related websites and have her read them, or once you join the LGBTQ group, go to meetings with her there. 

As for trans-acceptance in the LGBTQ society, it _should_ be accepting. Uhm, obviously I don't speak for every place, but I do go to two organizations and both are cool. One is specifically for trans-folk, one is just LGBTQ, and the LGBTQ-one is very accepting and all the people there, some of them have never met a trans person before, but they have the attitude of pure acceptance. Like, it's just a very, very open environment. Also, there _was_ a trans guy that used to go there, idk if he still does sometimes, but he first started going there before he knew he was trans (or he wasn't out yet) and he hadn't decided his name yet, so - you could just say you haven't decided on a name yet, or. Idk?


----------



## Jolty

Vladimir Putin's LJ said:


> The problem with my mother is that she has this train of thought a lot of people seem to have and that I simply don't understand, which is that transitioning will somehow change who I am on a fundamental level. It'll make me finally be comfortable in my body, but it won't change my personality apart from probably making me more confident, but she seems to think it'll turn me into a completely different person. This makes it very hard for me to have a serious discussion with her because I feel like she thinks she has to say goodbye to her child, when it's still _me_. I don't get what the problem is, but I know it bothers her and I don't want to hurt her. She has stated she'll still love me whatever I do in the future, but. I feel bad about it. I feel like remaining female will make it easier for everyone, including me, and especially since I'm primarily attracted to men, but I'll never be completely happy.


my dad had the same view as your mum until kinda recently. one time he said "when you're going in for the operation, to me it'll feel like you'll be _dying_", like his daughter would get killed off and replaced with someone else... 
I think probably every transgendered person has considered not transitioning to make it "easier" on those around them, but ultimately it's what makes /you/ happy that counts. you shouldn't have to make yourself miserable for anyone. :(
my own mum really doesn't want me to transition and will not call me by my male name (which is my legal name now) or use the right pronouns at all and is convinced i'll regret it because i'm so young but i'm doing it anyway. not out of spite to her or anyone else that doesn't "approve", but because it is what i believe is best for me.



> TMI: even on a sexual level, even though I'm very interested in men physically, I'm kind of terrified of ever having a relationship because although I'd love to touch, I don't think I could bear to be touched. Or be naked in this hypothetical man's presence. The thought alone makes me squirm horribly.


ugh exactly the same here ;_; I don't think I could do anything sexual without being scared shitless and feeling awful until I've been on hormones long enough for them to make noticeable changes... 
it sucks immensely because I have an absolutely mega libido. and a girlfriend who is genophobic. 



> Also: I'm going to join my university's LGBTQ society, and I obviously don't pass as male yet (I look pretty convincing with a haircut and a binder but the voice is treacherous). Does anyone have any experience with non-passing trans people in LGBTQ societies? I'm asking because there's a worrying amount of transphobia in the gay community for some weird reason and I don't want to make my life harder than it has to be. I don't even have a set male name or anything, because I feel like I'd like my mother's input. Argh.


I pass most of the time, but people just think I'm a lot younger than I actually am. you might pass more than you think you will 
I didn't ever go to the lgbt society at uni, but I don't think you'd get people hating on you or anything. not over here, anyway


----------



## Vladimir Putin's LJ

Pathos: yeah, my mum will probably come around if I ever have the guts to momentarily hurt her for a better general outcome :/ I've actually found a leaflet for parents of trans kids online, and I was thinking of giving that to her.

Jolty: my mother will probably think the same thing, and what bothers me the most is that I genuinely don't understand that thought process. It's not logical at all. And my mum's pretty extreme about it too, she once ranted at me that just _cutting my hair_ would change me. Whu?
I do probably just need to get a grip and have a chat with my mum, because you're right: I'm the one who has to live in this stupid body, so I shouldn't really limit myself for other people's sake.
And yeah pronoun-wise my mother once told me that she thinks it's normal to call a trans-person by their biological sex's pronoun if you've known them for a long time pre-transition so I don't really have my hopes up (though for some reason she's called me "he" three times in the past before correcting herself ?__? m-mutti what is this)

The sex thing is supremely frustrating :I I do hope hormones will help because it's really weird to draw and write smut and feel attracted to people and not be able to do something about it.

Weirdly enough I pass more when I'm in southern Europe, like Portugal or Malta etc ?__? I guess since guys are shorter there being 1m70 isn't conspicuous.

Thanks for the input on the LGBTQ thing, guys. I guess I'm just a bit scared to tell people about my problem and then have them make my three years at university hellish.



Lorem Ipsum said:


> This will probably sound insensitive, but I really want to know more about the process of transitioning from a female to a male body (or vice versa). I understand the whole dilemma of being male gendered but female sexually, but what are the current prospects for actual transitioning surgery? For example, how effective and realistic is the reconstructed penis - would it be able to respond sexually like natural male penises do?


Lorem, I don't think you need to be worried about being insensitive with a question like this, I think it's rather good to be interested! It's only annoying if you ask a random transperson about their specific situation without preamble (this has happened to me and it's a whole new realm of terrible). This next segment is pretty graphic for obvious reasons.
The surgeries depends on a number of factors and the results can differ greatly, though nowadays most of the top surgeries are pretty good. For top surgery, you have:
Keyhole, which is for guys with small chests, which leaves little-to-no scar tissue because iirc it only involves a cut around the nipple.
Mastectomy, which is the most common one, for the unlucky bigger-chested guys. Basically you cut a crescent under the breast, remove the stuff inside, then close. The nipples are also usually shifted so they look natural. The results are usually decent, though it helps to not have unnecessary fatty tissue around there. The problem is that more often than not, you do lose sensitivity in the nipples :/ they're just sort of cut off and move around so they don't have nerve endings.
Top surgery photos: Before and after
Before and after again
Buck Angel, FtM porn star and activist

Bottom surgery is pretty much completely terrible tbh. You basically have two options:
Taking T enlarges the clitoris considerably, and it can become a couple of inches long and even get erect (since the clitoris is made of erectile tissue). Some guys even report being able to engage in penetrative sex, though it's rare. 
There's a procedure called metoidioplasty which releases the clitoris from surrounding skin to make it like a small penis. People usually get uretheral lengthening to enable them to urinate standing up, and some guys get testicular implants, which just serve to make it all look more natural.
The pros of this are an erotically sensate penis that can get erect, but it's pretty tiny.
Pictures: 1
2
3

The other option is a phalloplasty, which involves taking a large piece of skin from the arm and using it to construct a penis. It makes an average-sized phallus through which one can urinate, and it can become erect with a pump system (not sure how it works exactly). It also reduces the sensitivity considerably. Testicular implants are often used.
It's obscenely expensive though.
1
2

Although they keep looking and being better, very few transguys get bottom surgery because of how shitty the results are.
There have been some advances in another field, which is to pretty much grow a fully-functioning penis in a lab, which would be awesome if they got it to work for people. The way science progresses, I'm fairly optimistic about this being available for humans in the coming years.


----------



## Byrus

I'm actually in the process of talking to a FTM about bottom surgery options. The information about it on the net is pretty scarce to be honest.... This is really one of those "you're better off just talking to your therapist/surgeon/person who has gone through it things". I kinda wish more people would share their stories, but I completely understand why they don't. 

Vlad, I can't help but think those photos aren't very recent ones. Transbucket is a great place for photos on phalloplasty (and trans surgery in general). (you need to register though) When you compare the results of ones done in the 90s/early 2000 compared to ones done recently, you can see a big improvement. This and this are good examples of ones done right.  Obviously, the results aren't prefect and it's unlikely it'll pass as a biological penis, but the glans sculpting has really improved, so yeah, hopefully it'll keep getting better. The results my surgeon showed me looked very promising as well.

Also fuck, I had a great information sheet on how the whole pump system works, but I lost it in the mess of other info sheets I got. Interestingly enough, it's also used for biological guys with severe erection problems.


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## Saith

Vlad: Thanks! It honestly means a lot. :)

Uh but in other maybe good maybe bad news, I went to the cardiff Mardis Gras today. T was fun and I loved it, but I kind of accidentally came out. I was stoned, drunk and just pumping with the excitement of being at a festival organised specifically for QUILTBAG community, and when the girl on the stage started screaming shit about howwe shouldn`t have to hide, I kinda came out to all my mates.
It was baking ugggghhhh


----------



## Jolty

Byrus said:


> This and this are good examples of ones done right.  Obviously, the results aren't prefect and it's unlikely it'll pass as a biological penis, but the glans sculpting has really improved, so yeah, hopefully it'll keep getting better. The results my surgeon showed me looked very promising as well.


wow those ones look great

haha most other images of lower surgery I've seen have scared the shit out of me (and the thing about using skin from the arm/leg oh god) so I'm just not really considering it for the time being. 
I guess I'd rather have the bits I have now and know how to make the most of them than potentially "mess them up" with a surgery... and by mess up I mean lose sensitivity and stuff. couldn't think of a better phrase :|

also
what exactly do they do with the vagina in FTM lower surgeries???


----------



## Byrus

Jolty said:


> wow those ones look great
> 
> haha most other images of lower surgery I've seen have scared the shit out of me (and the thing about using skin from the arm/leg oh god) so I'm just not really considering it for the time being.
> I guess I'd rather have the bits I have now and know how to make the most of them than potentially "mess them up" with a surgery... and by mess up I mean lose sensitivity and stuff. couldn't think of a better phrase :|
> 
> also
> what exactly do they do with the vagina in FTM lower surgeries???


I can u

Also, this gives lots of good info on the intricate details of FTM surgery. If I tried to explain anything intricate, I'd just fuck it up and word it awkwardly so yeah. (seriously never come to me for advice i just get too wound up about personal stuff like this ha)



> Uh but in other maybe good maybe bad news, I went to the cardiff Mardis Gras today. T was fun and I loved it, but I kind of accidentally came out. I was stoned, drunk and just pumping with the excitement of being at a festival organised specifically for QUILTBAG community, and when the girl on the stage started screaming shit about howwe shouldn`t have to hide, I kinda came out to all my mates.
> It was baking ugggghhhh


 How did they react?


----------



## BLABO

heeeello! :D
I am a gay male, and I'm from sppf. I decided to kinda sorta leave there because the people there are dumb as hell! XD
although I still post in the lgbt club and enter the WSC. so yeah, can I join? ^_^


----------



## ...

BLABO said:


> heeeello! :D
> I am a gay male, and I'm from sppf. I decided to kinda sorta leave there because the people there are dumb as hell! XD
> although I still post in the lgbt club and enter the WSC. so yeah, can I join? ^_^


Absolutely, we haven't had any fresh blood in a while.

Waitwut

Yeah, I guess. Come on in BLABO, pull up a pink bubble chair, pour yourself a drink, and tell us about yourself. :)


----------



## Harlequin

Saith I think my mother was at the Cardiff Mardi Gras. She goes to more gay events than I do I swear. ...


----------



## Saith

Oh wow, really?

She might remember me - I was with all the stoner homophobes. I have shitty friends.


----------



## Harlequin

My mother goes to all sorts of things. It's annoying. Some of my friends were there, too, I think! I now several gays, now that I think about it. Two lesbians and a gay from this area at least.


----------



## Lady Grimdour

Saith said:


> Vlad: Thanks! It honestly means a lot. :)
> 
> Uh but in other maybe good maybe bad news, I went to the cardiff Mardis Gras today. T was fun and I loved it, but I kind of accidentally came out. I was stoned, drunk and just pumping with the excitement of being at a festival organised specifically for QUILTBAG community, and when the girl on the stage started screaming shit about howwe shouldn`t have to hide, I kinda came out to all my mates.
> It was baking ugggghhhh


Lucky you, I was still in quarantine then.

I would've frocked up and everything.


----------



## Crazy Linoone

*pops out of lurking* 



Flazeah said:


> @Elliekat: there's an article here about asexuality you could reference. Read the "sex" part. Not saying it's a hundred percent accurate or whatever, but it seems to mention a wide variety of people's experiences with attraction and lack thereof - something to consider, hopefully?


LIFE MAKES SO MUCH MORE SENSE NOW
Especially the whole thing about sexual attraction. Wow. I feel enlightened. 

idk I've known that I'm not straight ever since I learned about the existence of non-straight people from TCoD (I think that was during... 6th grade? Yeah, probably). But I was never quite sure what exactly I am. I went through this whole conflicting thought process switching between "I'm (probably) gaayyyy" and "I'm (probably) biiii" and "I'm (probably) straight", until high school came around and it became a switch betwee "I'm (probably) pan" and "I'm (probably) ace". Around last year, I just give up and decided that I don't know what the hell I am and I don't really care. 

And now

it all makes sense now

*sparkles* 

Although I have the nagging feeling that my new group of friends may contain (a) homophobe(s) so :(  (My awesome liberal and super nerdy group of probably mostly asexual with at least one out bi friends all graduated :( )


----------



## Arylett Charnoa

;;Also pops out of lurking;;

I read some of that asexual article just now and felt a few things might've applied to me. I can certainly understand lack of sexual desire as I've had it for most of my teen years. Then again, I'm a bit of a weird case. Probably just a really really late bloomer. (16 years old late.)

Oh and I want to change what I said the last looong time ago I posted here. Did some thinking, blah blah, it involved a lot of complicated issues of mine that made it unclear for me to actually tell what "attraction" was. Upon thought, reflection, and conversation, I realized that I am actually gay instead of bisexual. Yeah, took me until I was 19 to realize that. I think I'm just the latest bloomer ever. Then again, I always was behind on the curve of everyone. Especially in this sort of thing.

Also, that article was helpful for me to distinguish the concept of sexual arousal from attraction, something that I have trouble with sometimes, and actually gives me more credence to thinking I'm gay. Since I was sexually _aroused_ by the ATTENTION that men gave me, but not at all _attracted_ to them. And this is part of why I was so confused and thought I was bisexual. So it helped me too. Woo-hoo! Good read there. 

Now I just wish I knew how to meet people... the thing I'm worried about now of being gay is that there's a smaller pool of possible people for me to get with. And since even when I thought I had a bigger pool, nothing came of it... yeah. 

Also, the whole, telling the family nonsense. Not really the typical story of conservative family so much as the mother who is all: "But now you won't make me grandchildren or get married D:" and disappointment and telling me that being gay is a really bad idea because she once liked a woman and it was a bad experience for her. It's just more a bundle of awkwardness than anything too bad. Still though. I hate telling my family anything important, so telling them this might be so far as a stretch. Yet it's one of those things that I feel like telling pretty much everyone. And I would like to tell them so my mom doesn't talk about getting me a boyfriend anymore. That'd be nice too.


----------



## Flazeah

Happy for your increased self-discovery, both! Arylett, there are loads of opportunities out there. You just have to grab them. Sometimes you'll be lucky, sometimes you won't, but go out there and do things you enjoy or join clubs - hopefully you'll meet some great people!

  I get the boyfriend thing too, but it's different for me as I am attracted to guys; my parents are pretty good about the whole bi thing, and they do say "met any nice boys or girls recently?", but sometimes when I mention a guy friend, they'll ask if I like him, but barely ever do that when I mention a girl. I guess they'll learn.


----------



## Diz

Hmm, I just found out from my sister this evening that there's a bi guy at school.

He's out, and has a boyfriend. 

I've never actually talked to him, but I think he'd be interesting. He has blue hair.


----------



## Vladimir Putin's LJ

I think that's a great option for people who don't identify either way and such, but I hope this doesn't mean that Australian trans people will have to choose this particular gender marking. There isn't anything fundamentally wrong with it but it would sort of suck to be marked as "X" when you're definitely "M" or "F" and you're being treated as not a "real" man or woman.
Either way it's a pretty cool development, gj Australia! Proud of my, er, third nationality.

In selfish news my packer came in today :3c it's pretty ridiculous-looking but it feels kind of awesome. I'm just praying my mother doesn't find it before I go to university or I'll honestly just die from having too much blood rushing to my head.
I've been doing quite a bit of clothes-shopping and my mother has been surprisingly cool with buying male clothes for me (she's the one who says RIGHT MALE SECTION NOW JUST CHOOSE), but I'm having a world of trouble with suits :/ the jacket always look sort of weird because of my stupid monster hips and I'm not sure what to do except the obvious weightloss (working on it) and even then I'm not really sure because my actual hipbone is kind of massive.

Also for transpeople in general: how did you go about choosing your new name? I've got a very female name and I'm trying to find something, but the thing with my female name is that it works in both Portuguese and Dutch and I've yet to find anything like that in male names. :/
My family name is Dutch so I'm considering a Dutch name and just keeping my Portuguese middle names, but the only ones I like are pretty silly. Willem, Henk, Jan, that sort. I have friends who are just telling me to actually have people call me Vlad in real life and while I love the name Vladimir I'd feel pretty ridiculous with an inexplicable Russian name.
I'm thinking of António if I decide to go with a Portuguese name, after my grandad, but I'd rather put that in my middle names or something, I don't know. I'd like to ask my parents for input but they're nowhere near ready.


----------



## Minish

Ashton van Helsing said:


> To all those who represent the 'T' in QUILTBAG, here's a bit of news that should brighten up your day.


The article is written pretty badly ("whose partner was born female", really?) but this is pretty good headway! I wonder if it's something only restricted to transpeople though, rather than anyone who's non-cis? I mean it says "those of ambiguous sex" but what about ambiguous gender?

It's giving me the feeling it's just to prevent inconvenience rather than to let people be more comfortable with what's on their passport.


----------



## shy ♡

@Vlad: Uhmmm I actually just searched baby names. My first name, I chose one that is Jewish so that Israelis can, you know, pronounce it. And my middle name I chose just something I like. 

I think it comes down to finding something that just clicks as oh, that's _me_, when you see it. Also remember you can actually have as many names as you want. :D (Also! Both my names are unisex, it's just a little... well I like it better that way? Something maybe you could think about?? Then you don't have to think about male name/female name, it's just a name.)


----------



## opaltiger

Cirrus said:


> The article is written pretty badly ("whose partner was born female", really?) but this is pretty good headway! I wonder if it's something only restricted to transpeople though, rather than anyone who's non-cis? I mean it says "those of ambiguous sex" but what about ambiguous gender?
> 
> It's giving me the feeling it's just to prevent inconvenience rather than to let people be more comfortable with what's on their passport.


I think there needs to be a clearer statement of whether official documents are supposed to state sex, gender, or both - that article strikes me as meaning gender when it says sex. I remember people complaining about the UK census, which listed only "male" and "female" under the question labelled "sex". While this is still problematic, it's a lot better than if the question said "gender", which is what I think most of the critics were assuming. There are valid reasons for collecting statistics about both sex and gender, so I think what really needs to happen is a conscious split. In forms which are supposed to be comprehensive (like the census) there should be a sex _and_ a gender field. Passports should state both (or neither - I'm not really sure why that's there to begin with), and so on.

As for what options they should offer, the problem here (like with alternate pronouns) is that there are lots of non-binary gender identities. I think the easiest solution is to have male, female, and a write-in "other" field.


----------



## Jolty

Vladimir Putin's LJ said:


> Also for transpeople in general: how did you go about choosing your new name? I've got a very female name and I'm trying to find something, but the thing with my female name is that it works in both Portuguese and Dutch and I've yet to find anything like that in male names. :/


as stupid as it sounds, i stole my name from a fictional character haha... idk he means a goddamn lot to me (and i am quite a lot like him in many ways) and at the time of realising i was trans, i knew his name would be the only one for me.

the only catch is is that it's not a very common name in the UK (much more common in the USA) but at least it's a name from the English language :B

as for middle names... I wanted my initials to be BHM (after someone else who means a goddamn lot to me) so I went looking through a bunch of baby name sites for names beginning with H.


----------



## Minish

opaltiger said:


> I think there needs to be a clearer statement of whether official documents are supposed to state sex, gender, or both - that article strikes me as meaning gender when it says sex.


But isn't the article going on about hold-ups due to not looking like their picture? I'd think if it were about gender the problem would be people not feeling comfortable, rather than because it's "highly inconvenient".


----------



## opaltiger

Yeah, but that's because most people probably mean sex when they think of that. Basically I think everyone is very confused and somehow trying to fit trans identities into a single category that will cover both sex and gender, even though the entire point is that for trans people, those aren't the same. Hence, instead of realising that yes, actually, most trans people are perfectly happy putting down "male" or "female" in a gender field, they try to invent some weird third category.


----------



## Jolty

Lorem Ipsum said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-14960357
> 
> I <3 you, Coalition government.


lol i literally posted this 5 minutes ago on another forum

should it really take another four years? 2015, come on we were promised it in 2010

it's a start though I GUESS
the coalition is still shite


----------



## Phantom

Hate to be a combo breaker. 

Recently came out. But it's sort of... different I guess. I'm an asexual bi romantic... Saying I'm bi usually is more simple. 


Sort of not in with all lingo so if that's incorrect tell me so I don't look a fool.


----------



## Diz

You just told us that you don't want to do the nasty with anyone, but you feel romantic feelings towards both genders.

That's a translation, as for if it's correct, that's something you have to tell us =)


----------



## Dannichu

The Sun is reporting the news using its usual stellar journalism. Headline of another article on that page: "Wrong-sex lad dresses as lass". I don't even.


----------



## Vladimir Putin's LJ

Dannichu said:


> The Sun is reporting the news using its usual stellar journalism. Headline of another article on that page: "Wrong-sex lad dresses as lass". I don't even.


Reading The Sun is like staring directly at its namesake. My eyes are bleeding.

I just think it's really weird that it's going to take until 2015 at the latest but I'm just really used to gay marriage being legal that I don't understand how generally decent countries (Britain, France, Germany) still don't have it. It's just. Portugal has it, you guys. You can get married in Portugal but not in France. What.

Thanks for your input on the name thing, guys :) I'm sorry I'm being so derpy but I'm a bit nervous about not having a set name yet. I actually went through a list of names and after a lot of deliberation I've narrowed it down to either Lars or Ivo. I'm leaning towards the former, but mum likes the latter more because it's got the same initial as my birth name.
Ultimately it's my choice, but I think it's fair to take her opinion into account since, well, she would have named me anyway if I'd come out right. Plus, Ivo works in Portuguese *and* Dutch while Lars... doesn't. Aaa.
My mother's actually being really cool about everything, it's a little weird. She just said she was a bit sad about the whole situation, but she only wants me to be happy. She also said she'll call me male pronouns and my male name in the future for sure, which is rather nice.

Also congratulations on coming to terms with your sexuality, Phantom :)!


----------



## Michi

Ashton van Helsing said:


> And there was much rejoicing.


While this is, of course, a great thing, I don't know if everything coming from this is positive. See, I'm just paranoid that people will get so open and confident in their sexuality that ignorant homophobes will notice them more and will commit more hate crimes... Otherwise, I'm happy that those who wish to serve in the armed forces will no longer be discharged for their sexuality. I just hope that the consequences don't turn out to actually be worse in the rare case I mentioned above.
I'm just paranoid.

In personal news, I have been arguing with myself over whether I'm truly biromantic or exclusively attracted to guys. I haven't had any real feelings for a female in well over a year, so I'm inclined to believe that I'm not biromantic. And I'm scared as hell to identify as exclusively gay to even my closest friends, even though they all assume it anyway except when I deny it, and then they still think it afterwards. And I hate the word gay. But I still use it because it's shorter and easier.
Frustrationnnnnnn


----------



## Phantom

Diz said:


> You just told us that you don't want to do the nasty with anyone, but you feel romantic feelings towards both genders.
> 
> That's a translation, as for if it's correct, that's something you have to tell us =)


 
Pretty much in a nutshell.


----------



## Hiikaru

Diz said:


> You just told us that you don't want to do the nasty with anyone, but you feel romantic feelings towards both genders.
> 
> That's a translation, as for if it's correct, that's something you have to tell us =)


"Both genders" is incorrect. "Both" is a word that means "all, but there are only two," but there aren't really just two. 

(And I kind of don't think there should be a number on it, anyway! Just because someone feels like they're not a boy or a girl doesn't make them genderless, and someone can feel like a mix of those, so definitely not two or three, even if it's numberable.)

Also *Phantom*, people who identify as bisexual or biromantic can define it pretty differently! Some people say it means "I like people who identify as a girl or as a guy, regardless of body," some people say "I like people who have only male or only female parts, regardless of identification," and then other people say "I only like people who have only female parts and also identify as a girl, or people who have only male parts and also identify as a boy (only cisgendered people)." There's also a distinction between people who feel they have an _active_ interest in each group covered by the label, and people who feel they are simply _capable_ of having an interest. Also, some people say any of those three but don't really think about that there are more than two genders, or about that some people have changed how they are physically from how they were at birth. Or they _have_ thought about it, but identify that way anyway because they've never met someone outside of those categories. Just something to think about! (and also another reason why labels are really silly)



Mockingjay said:


> In personal news, I have been arguing with myself over whether I'm truly biromantic or exclusively attracted to guys. I haven't had any real feelings for a female in well over a year, so I'm inclined to believe that I'm not biromantic. And I'm scared as hell to identify as exclusively gay to even my closest friends, even though they all assume it anyway except when I deny it, and then they still think it afterwards. And I hate the word gay. But I still use it because it's shorter and easier.
> Frustrationnnnnnn


Does it really matter if you haven't had feelings for anyone with a female body for a while? It doesn't necessarily mean that you can't, or that you won't - people can have feelings for no one at all for years and years and then suddenly have feelings for someone! It isn't really a big deal whether or not you're capable of liking female people, is it? It's just kind of a prediction, so it's okay to take a while to decide on a label, or to not have or never decide on one at all. Or even for the label to change! Any of those is okay, so you should probably try not to worry about it so much.

Too, it isn't very fun if you don't like a word you're sticking to yourself. Maybe you could refer to yourself as homosexual and/or homoromantic, or just say the kind of people you're interested in without attaching a label to it? "Shorter and easier" kind of doesn't seem worth it if you don't like it!

(Also, you're mixing up terminology a bit here. You're saying you think you like guys (who may or may not be _male_) but that you don't think you like female people (who may or may not be _girls_). "Guy" or "girl" is something you can feel like. "Male" or "female" is based on your parts and genetics. So you're saying "I think I like people who identify as guys, but not people with female parts," which is probably not what you're trying to say. Tons of people mix that up, but you should probably try to not, because the mix-up can make others uncomfortable!)


----------



## Michi

Hiikaru ♥;530628 said:
			
		

> Does it really matter if you haven't had feelings for anyone with a female body for a while? It doesn't necessarily mean that you can't, or that you won't - people can have feelings for no one at all for years and years and then suddenly have feelings for someone! It isn't really a big deal whether or not you're capable of liking female people, is it? It's just kind of a prediction, so it's okay to take a while to decide on a label, or to not have or never decide on one at all. Or even for the label to change! Any of those is okay, so you should probably try not to worry about it so much.
> 
> Too, it isn't very fun if you don't like a word you're sticking to yourself. Maybe you could refer to yourself as homosexual and/or homoromantic, or just say the kind of people you're interested in without attaching a label to it? "Shorter and easier" kind of doesn't seem worth it if you don't like it!


See, it really does bug me because I hate all the complications. It's difficult enough to have any attraction to any gender or sex other than the traditional opposite (girls/females in my case) thanks to society, let alone be attracted to mostly or completely the same gender and/or sex. To have the complication of having previously had feelings for females gives me the false sliver of hope that I might not be entirely homosexual/romantic, which I now know to be wrong. And i say hope because Ive always been extremely scared of possible bullying or even worse, and Id quite like to not have this happen at all. Thankfully all the people who know are quite comfortable with everything! I've been dong some thinking lately and I think I've come to terms with everything, and thank you for your help. I do like the ease of a simple label for myself when one applies, and Ive decided that one does apply. Of course, I'll always worry about homophobes and the like anyway, that's the only thing I can't quite come to terms with.



> (Also, you're mixing up terminology a bit here. You're saying you think you like guys (who may or may not be _male_) but that you don't think you like female people (who may or may not be _girls_). "Guy" or "girl" is something you can feel like. "Male" or "female" is based on your parts and genetics. So you're saying "I think I like people who identify as guys, but not people with female parts," which is probably not what you're trying to say. Tons of people mix that up, but you should probably try to not, because the mix-up can make others uncomfortable!)


See, this is a can or worms I usually avoid like the plague. :/ Specifically, the only people I have been attracted to in the past 3 years are biologically male and identify with male pronouns and all that. I'm not ruling any other people out as possible objects of future attraction in any way and I really hope everyone realizes that. ._. I am trying not to offend anyone right now. And I'm overreacting because I think people will understand what I'm trying to say here.

For anyone who hasn't heard yet, Jamey Rodemeyer (I believe my spelling is accurate there), a 14 year old male, committed suicide recently due to bullying over his orientation.
He was an avid Lady GaGa fan, and being a Little Monster myself I heard about his death relatively quickly. Multiple celebrities have commented about this, including Gaga herself. Shes spoken to President Obama about bullying and is calling for a law of some sort to prevent bullying, saying all bullying is a hate crime.


----------



## Skyman

Um, hello everybody.

I'm signing up(or joining, or whatever) as bisexual biromantic. I've only recent realized(for lack of a better word) this, so I'm still kinda confused about everything.


----------



## Phantom

^Hi

Waiit, isn't bisexual biromantic contradictory? Confuzed.


----------



## Skyman

Phantom said:


> ^Hi
> 
> Waiit, isn't bisexual biromantic contradictory? Confuzed.


No, it's not(from what I know), since they define two different things-namely, sexual attraction for bisexual, and romantic attraction for biromantic. They both mean that I'm attracted to either gender for either thing.


----------



## Phantom

Ok, that works. Less confusion now. :3


----------



## Dinru

Mockingjay said:


> traditional opposite [gender]


Just quoting to say that I think this is the best way to define what's commonly known as "opposite gender". I've been looking for a good way to say that for a while. Thanks.


----------



## Byrus

So, random question: does anyone know of any decent book/comic/movie featuring transsexual characters? Preferably one where they aren't raped, killed or generally treated like shit (like max in the L word).

It's funny, I've never really cared much about trans exposure in the media, in fact I've sort of preferred the low-profile, as I would give absolutely fucking anything to just be a cis man and not trans. I don't feel like being trans is part of my identity and I don't want it to be; it's caused me nothing but grief and I have to go through lengthy and strenuous operations before I can even feel comfortable in my own skin. But I was reading "Y the last man", (which is a comic about a plague that wiped out all males of the human race except one) and I just couldn't enjoy it at all, because I kept thinking "this would be a seriously good opportunity to introduce an ftm character", but no dice obviously. I was expecting that, but then they bring in a drag king and.... ugh. The way it was handled was fucking horrible. That's literally the only mention that a female bodied male identified person gets in the whole fucking comic (and it's treated as a joke), despite the good opportunity to explore the issue.

I normally prefer reading stuff with (cis) male protagonists because I feel I can identify with them the most, but I think this is the first time where I've felt exasperated about their prominence. 

Sorry for the mini-rant, I don't really know why this comic in particular pissed me off so much. Generally I only get this way over stuff that plays gender bending for laughs (which I avoid like the plague.) Also fuck, this post is probably badly written sorry, I just wanted to vent. I'm going to go back to reading Alien comics now.


----------



## shy ♡

There's this wiki article. I recommend Transamerica and Degrassi; Degrassi isn't an excellent-quality show so I really just watched the episodes with Adam in them, but it's the best portrayal of a trans character I've ever seen in a tv show or... anywhere, really.


----------



## Byrus

Pathos said:


> There's this wiki article. I recommend Transamerica and Degrassi; Degrassi isn't an excellent-quality show so I really just watched the episodes with Adam in them, but it's the best portrayal of a trans character I've ever seen in a tv show or... anywhere, really.


Ah thanks, that probably should have been the obvious place to start, but I was just feeling a bit hyped up. I don't know what's wrong with me tonight, urgh.


----------



## Light

Has anyone else associated the face cards with sexualities?

Jack - jack of all trades
Queen - mascuromantic
King - femiromantic
The obvious one: Ace - trumps 'em all

I think this is potentially cool.


----------



## Lady Grimdour

Just wanted to post here for advice, and probably because I liked reliving it.

Okay, so as said in the Laughing Cupboard, I went out en femme, with fishnets, heels and a leotard to a University social and got neutral to a good response. One guy even wanted to take me to his flat "to show me off to his flatmates". Kept telling me I reminded him of this girl he met at the London Expo. Huh. I also got honked at, and apparently, I had impressive legs.

So now I enjoyed all the attention, not to mention I actually felt more "me", but at the same time tonight I went out as normal, did a karaoke night thing at the union and still felt "me", but like a different me. It's like DPD, but just for gender.

Plus, I found out my bunkmate's an open homophobe.

So the question lies; where the hell do I stand now? I want to delve deeper into my girlmode after that spectacle, but at the same time I really don't want to go fulltime as female. And also how do I deal with my bunkmate? He still doesn't know, but he questioned, no _interrogated_ me about being gay when I told him about the night.


----------



## Ether's Bane

:(


----------



## Zero Moment

Grimdour said:


> Just wanted to post here for advice, and probably because I liked reliving it.
> 
> Okay, so as said in the Laughing Cupboard, I went out en femme, with fishnets, heels and a leotard to a University social and got neutral to a good response. One guy even wanted to take me to his flat "to show me off to his flatmates". Kept telling me I reminded him of this girl he met at the London Expo. Huh. I also got honked at, and apparently, I had impressive legs.
> 
> So now I enjoyed all the attention, not to mention I actually felt more "me", but at the same time tonight I went out as normal, did a karaoke night thing at the union and still felt "me", but like a different me. It's like DPD, but just for gender.
> 
> Plus, I found out my bunkmate's an open homophobe.
> 
> So the question lies; where the hell do I stand now? I want to delve deeper into my girlmode after that spectacle, but at the same time I really don't want to go fulltime as female. And also how do I deal with my bunkmate? He still doesn't know, but he questioned, no _interrogated_ me about being gay when I told him about the night.


Can you ask for a different roomate or something?


----------



## Lady Grimdour

Not really; we're in a student village and bunk beds are rare.


----------



## Ether's Bane

Effercon said:


> :(


Not to be pushy or rude, but why does it seem like no one on this forum cares about this?


----------



## Phantom

Cause it was such a small post I looked it over by accident. :( 
Please don't be mad.

But that is fucking stupid.


----------



## Byrus

Effercon said:


> Not to be pushy or rude, but why does it seem like no one on this forum cares about this?


For the same reason people didn't have much to say about the transgirl getting attacked I suppose. Plus, there's not much you can say other than "That's horrible" and it makes you feel a little helpless. With Grimdour's problem you can at least give advice to help her out.


----------



## Lady Grimdour

It's hard to sense helpless compassion and not caring on a message board, I mean the whole forum is basically a hivemind when it comes to these things, but as Byrus said, there's nothing we can really do other than sympathize. I'm sorry if that seemed like we don't care.

On the bright side, if the government's banned the event, then that means it's rustling a few feathers. And that means publicity. The media will watch this closely now, and in time, there will be change. There's a quote I heard somewhere; "first they ignore you, then they fight you, then you win".

Which reminds me, I've just realized how bad my situation with my bunkmate is: when the girls upstairs asked him what if his children end up gay, he outright said he won't. And if his sister were to become gay, their dad will, not might, disown her. I can simply not tell him, but I'm still wondering what will happen when he finds out. I'm not scared that he'll assault me or anything, it's just that apart from the homophobia, he's not that bad of a person. I just don't know where to tread here.


----------



## Automata heart

Um hi. After some thought and googling, I have found I identify with being pansexual. (if anyone is unsure, For me itmeans I am gender blind.)  Please look after me.


----------



## Saith

So I came out to my (junkie/abusive/paedophile) dad last night to spite him and... He accepted me.

I came out to one of my best friends who's stuck with me through thick and thin and has never left my side and... He punched me.

Fuck, I'm so confused.


----------



## Byrus

Has he shown himself to be transphobic before? Either way, I'm really sorry that happened, and I hope you can make it up with him. Sometimes people come round to these sort of things. Best of luck to you.


----------



## Vladimir Putin's LJ

I came out on Facebook since I want to start the whole 'getting hormones asap' thing into gear and I'm not sure what the procedure is in Belgium (and possibly the UK).

I'd already come out to my closest friends and they were all great with it, and my mother knows and is incredibly supportive, but one of the comments I got on FB was:

'lol you will always be a girl to me.'

I guess it's a little silly to be kind of upset about it, but I'm not sure how to respond. It's hard enough just being trans without having annoying people saying this sort of actually really hurtful shit.
I just want to ask him why he can't just be polite even if he doesn't  understand it, but argh. I'm not in tears or anything but it just kind of feels bad? Especially since it's a phrase you hear in bad literature a lot and I thought people were past it really.

Saith: I'm so sorry that happened. Has he shown signs of accepting you, or do you know why he did that?


----------



## Diz

Depending on the person, I obviously don't know him, he could just be commenting on how it'll take him some time to get used to your changing appearance. I don't think it was intentionally meant to be hurtful, though you took it that way.


----------



## surskitty

Vladimir Putin's LJ said:


> I came out on Facebook since I want to start the whole 'getting hormones asap' thing into gear and I'm not sure what the procedure is in Belgium (and possibly the UK).
> 
> I'd already come out to my closest friends and they were all great with it, and my mother knows and is incredibly supportive, but one of the comments I got on FB was:
> 
> 'lol you will always be a girl to me.'
> 
> I guess it's a little silly to be kind of upset about it, but I'm not sure how to respond. It's hard enough just being trans without having annoying people saying this sort of actually really hurtful shit.
> I just want to ask him why he can't just be polite even if he doesn't  understand it, but argh. I'm not in tears or anything but it just kind of feels bad? Especially since it's a phrase you hear in bad literature a lot and I thought people were past it really.


Ughhh.  If you need internet hugs, I can provide :|b


@DIZ: _Intent is not magic_.  It's not like that's a difficult thing to realise is something that _is not appropriate to say_.


----------



## Minish

So I went to a trans* ed thing run by the uni LGBT society and it was pretty good! I was sceptical since in recent years I haven't really been bothered about attending LGBT events since I figured they'd be pretty overbearing, but this was great and for the first time since coming to university here, I felt like maybe the people around me could be good friends!

There was a presentation about trans* issues and terminology, and it was very much focused on trans_*_ rather than just transgenderism, which was what I was anticipating. Seems all the organisers are not gender-normative, and relayed their experiences (like with using toilets here at university and how being trans* at uni has been in general) and it was genuinely interesting and enjoyable. And it felt so _comfortable_. They asked me what pronouns I use!!!! Some people asked me to join their work group eeeee and the head organiser person was like ! you have an odd number for pairs I guess I'll join in hi! so you're Cirrus hi what pronouns do you use! Spivak I don't see those used much any more yay hi I like zie/hir! :D I have never been asked that irl _ever_.

I had really high hopes for going there but I didn't expect that!! I talked with some people there and while there was a lot of "grrrr gender is just a social construct boo!" in my group and some of the other people were clearly really new to trans* issues (a few of them asked odd questions) but oh my god the organisers were so good at answering them and keeping their cool and being great about it! I worried things might be scary and uncomfortable because they might say silly stuff but the presentation (it was a pretty long thing, like a few hours?) got pretty much everything was right and good. Yes.

So. That was a really, really good experience and I feel so much better at uni now, knowing there are a whole bunch of trans* people here and serious, dedicated LGBTQ uni community. Yay, yay, yay!! (I'm sorry for those who haven't had such good experiences at uni, I just wanted to relay my good experience! :C I'm genuinely curious as to how other unis are about this kind of thing? I only heard about this through a Facebook invite so I guess it was a pretty low-key thing, hm.)


----------



## Harlequin

Um! Cirrus I have some things to relate!! Cardiff's LGBT+ Association (that's the political and campaign wing of the society) have been really good about trans* issues lately! They've managed to get gender-neutral toilets installed in the Union!! And some other campaigns. We're having a "Trans Forum and Workshop" on Sunday, too, and that's been organised by a trans member of the committee! The society doesn't have many trans* members but that's apparently because a lot of the trans* people here prefer to blend and so on (there was a survey last year apparently?) but I know of at least one trans* person who's on the committee! It seems like there's a pretty good atmosphere really.

The society itself is really great too! Everyone is nice and friendly and there's a really serious political and activism side to it, too. I think the focus this year is on bisexual and trans* issues, because in recent years it's just been gay gay gay. There's an "Out in Sport" focus group tomorrow, too! I only recently became involved with the society and its stuffs because I assumed it just wouldn't be the sort of place I'd enjoy, but it's really quite nice! They also have a non-drinking social every Saturday (the Saturday coffee morning social!!) which is great because I like to meet people and do things that don't involve alcohol. 

Also apparently the society is doing an LGBT+ naked calendar which is like, supposedly the first one ever or something? Like there've been gay calendars and lesbian calendars and so on and so forth, but none that try to encompass everyone in the LGBT+ area. Which is cool. Also apparently I have to participate in that. Um. :D?


----------



## Vladimir Putin's LJ

Thanks for the comments, everyone.



Jason-Kun said:


> Honestly, does it really matter what his friend personally sees him as as long as the friend treats him like he wants to be treated/refers to him with the pronouns he pefers to be called by?


I honestly wouldn't mind what he thought as long as he did treat me as I wish to be treated, but he outright stated he refuses to use the correct pronouns and said: 'think of it this way, i will always call you (birthname)', which is... pretty terrible! And it's going to look pretty silly in a few years when I have a deep voice and all that.
If he insists on doing that and ruining my chances at passing then I'll just remove him from my friend's list tbh

Cirrus and Harle, it's awesome to hear your LGBT* societies are so cool :o mine isn't bad, they have a non-drinking social every Wednesday called LGBTeaQ which is just sitting around and drinking tea and stuff, but I haven't been to many because I'm kind of socially anxious. Also the first time I went to one I had to explain my gender identity and say that no you don't choose to be trans and so on which was a little weird since I though they'd have more experience?
There are two transgirls in the society but I didn't really get the chance to talk to them, and I don't know of any other transguys. They might all be stealth already.
My LGBT society hasn't done much politically, except for a candlelight vigil when two guys got set on fire outside of a popular gay bar here (yes it was completely awful, thankfully both guys are recovering in hospital and will be able to leave soon). All the socials that aren't the tea are barcrawls and such, which I'm terrible at attending, so yeah. They might do something next week since the Transgender Day of Remembrance is on Sunday?


----------



## Diz

Viki said:


> @DIZ: _Intent is not magic_.  It's not like that's a difficult thing to realise is something that _is not appropriate to say_.


But remember, the people on Facebook aren't like the people on TCoD.
Maybe Vlad is the first trans* person he's ever met and has absolutely no idea how to react. Maybe he's just expressing poorly the sentiment that it'll take him some time to get used to the idea. 

Again, I don't know the guy, so maybe he's just being a douche, but I'd like to call it ignorance.

*Edit:* And apparently I was wrong


----------



## Kinova

Aaaah you both have such good sounding LGBT+ groups! I'm on the mailing list for ours (after getting super excited that there even was one at Fresher's Fayre) but they've only done one event I think since the start of term and now it is nearly going-home-for-Christmas time so I am a bit disappointed. Especially because I was busy the night of the one they have done and also because they post links to the Cardiff one like 'hey these guys are doing stuff, look at all they stuff they are doing' but we are not Cardiff are we. :|

Vlad, I'm sorry that person is being a pain about things. :c I'm guessing he might get with it a bit more once your hormone treatment is getting done, because he's the one that going to look stupid calling you what is obviously the wrong gender.


----------



## Harlequin

Kinova said:


> Aaaah you both have such good sounding LGBT+ groups! I'm on the mailing list for ours (after getting super excited that there even was one at Fresher's Fayre) but they've only done one event I think since the start of term and now it is nearly going-home-for-Christmas time so I am a bit disappointed. Especially because I was busy the night of the one they have done and also because they post links to the Cardiff one like 'hey these guys are doing stuff, look at all they stuff they are doing' but we are not Cardiff are we. :|
> 
> Vlad, I'm sorry that person is being a pain about things. :c I'm guessing he might get with it a bit more once your hormone treatment is getting done, because he's the one that going to look stupid calling you what is obviously the wrong gender.


Come to Cardiff's! Everyone is really friendly and I'm fairly sure we've got a guy from UWIC who comes to stuff sometimes! absolutely no one would mind that you're not a Cardiff student or anything like that! We have some people who aren't even students at all! If you don't just want to turn up or anything I'd be happy to meet you somewhere beforehand so that you can get to know like one person or something, if you want!


----------



## Lady Grimdour

I would go, but trans are too expensive. And Kinova, where are you in Wales?


----------



## Saith

Is it weird that since I moved to Cardiff, I haven't gone to any of the gay clubs? I used to go all the time, but now... Ah well.
Then again I'm only out to some friends - who are now all over the map - so I can only go places with the friends I've made in - ugh - pentwyn.
Man, being on the dole sucks.

*e:* Reading the last few posts, Wales is, I guess, the gayest country in the world, judging by the number of Welshies in this thread? o.O


----------



## Lady Grimdour

Hm. The moment I move to Aberystwyth, YOU ALL MOVE TO CARDIFF. damn.


----------



## Tailsy

Saith said:


> *e:* Reading the last few posts, Wales is, I guess, the gayest country in the world, judging by the number of Welshies in this thread? o.O


I think the accent helped you all along a bit.

(So cute. SO CUTE...)


----------



## Harlequin

Saith said:


> Is it weird that since I moved to Cardiff, I haven't gone to any of the gay clubs? I used to go all the time, but now... Ah well.
> Then again I'm only out to some friends - who are now all over the map - so I can only go places with the friends I've made in - ugh - pentwyn.
> Man, being on the dole sucks.
> 
> *e:* Reading the last few posts, Wales is, I guess, the gayest country in the world, judging by the number of Welshies in this thread? o.O


You could also come to LGBT+ society events! For the record I've not been to any gay clubs either, but the society does do club nights all the time! Thursday is one!


----------



## Zeph

Saith said:
			
		

> Reading the last few posts, Wales is, I guess, the gayest country in the world, judging by the number of Welshies in this thread? o.O.


All the more reason for me to go to Cardiff uni!

I joke, I joke.


----------



## Harlequin

In all seriousness our LGBT+ association is a pretty cool guy! It has a dedicated political wing as well as a social wing, and it runs non-drinking socials all the time, as well as on-scene and off-scene socials. Good support network, if you need it. Cardiff isn't a bad place to be gay I guess also we have a gay film festival.


----------



## Lady Grimdour

So now I'm torn.

Okay, so I went to the AberPride social, and got ever so slightly pissed on apple juice and JD, and ended up in a sofa in the arms of two gay men. Now that scenario was fine, I mean everyone has gay experiences, right? Soon as I come out of the pub, everyone else now starts commenting on me coming out.

I was in guymode, and I may be bigender, but I seriously don't classify myself as gay  in that sense; I'm only attracted to women. But here's the thing; during that, I didn't mind. Could be the whiskey talking and oh God I can't type, but I didn't object.

So what the hell?


----------



## Saith

Whole bunch of things it could be but, well, you were tipsy. That could be it. It depends on what you mean by 'slightly pissed' though.
Alternatively you like guys?
Or maybe it's that because you've been... Uh... Not sure how to phrase this, but maybe it's because you're getting closer to your 'feminine' side - that is, showing others and admitting to yourself about really being female. If you've been steadily increasing your 'boundaries' these past few months, maybe you've just come across something else you've never realised?
_Or_ maybe 'girls like guys so I should like guys' type of mentality - trying to fit into the female stereotype to reaffirm to yourself your gender and part of that surfaces as being attracted to guys.

Honestly, it could be anything really. Does it really matter all that much? If you _are_ attracted to guys, and no one gives a damn, then just run with it. If nothing else, it's an experience, regardless of the reasons behind it.

Then again, if it's only because you were drunk, and you're no into cock when you're sober, maybe you should drink less. :)

Wow, why the fuck was my post longer than yours? o.O


----------



## Lady Grimdour

I don't know, I've just been in flux. Though by "slightly pissed", I mean three pints of JD and apple juice (called the Applejack) plus some other stuff.

It's definitely not the convention thing, I mean beforehand I already established that I'm into girls in both modes. I'll see how it pans out at the coffee social this Sunday.


----------



## Kinova

Harlequin, that could be fun! If there's anything cool that you're going to be at you should let me know and we could do that. :) Also gay film festival when where what that sounds fun.

@Grim: I say try not to worry about it too much; it could easily have been because you were drinking but either way it's just easier to be flexible about it and see how it pans out, like you said. I guess the only real problem is having people niggling you about it, but try not to let them bother you.

Oh and I'm at UWIC, so yup. Living in apparently the gay capital of tCoD/Wales?


----------



## Harlequin

Well, there's a regular Saturday morning social at The Vulcan Lounge in Cathays, although I'm likely to miss next week's because I'm going home for the weekend. There's nothing that interesting on this week, but on the 5th there's a quiz night, then on the 9th there's a social to Pulse, and then on the 15th there's ice skating at Winter Wonderland by the museum!

The film festival was in September, but I think it's a yearly thing? I'm not actually sure about that!


----------



## Lady Grimdour

Okay, if any of you Cardiff folk are gonna be there during the Christmas period, what say you all to a meetup?


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## Harlequin

Depends when you're defining "Christmas period"! I'll be going home around the 17th, I think.


----------



## Lady Grimdour

...dammit. I was going home on the 17th too. When do you come back?


----------



## Aletheia

*strolls in casually*
*realizes he isn't in Silence Game*

Joining because I am angsty and questioning my sexuality. There's probably a lot of stuff I could add but I'm on my phone right now :c


----------



## Harlequin

Grimdour said:


> ...dammit. I was going home on the 17th too. When do you come back?


Probably like early January, maybe the 7thish? I'll have to see what my housemates are doing! I don't really know what my Christmas plans are entirely, and I may end up leaving later than the 17th. It depends on like, housemates and whether or not I want to go home as soon as my lectures end etc.


----------



## Harlequin

So! The level of gay in this thread appears to have reached an all-time low. What's been going on with everyone!? ALSO on the subject of a Cardiff!gay!tCoD!meetup, both Kinova and I are agreed that it would be fun.

(We tried to go ice skating but it sort of failed because: rain, so instead we sat in the SU and had an impromptu lunch social with the LGBT+ Society :D)


----------



## Aletheia

a classmate of mine said:
			
		

> Are you gay? Nah, just kidding; I'm not mean.


I proceeded to give him my standard look of neutral bewilderment.

Shenanigans of that sort have been bothering me lately :\


----------



## Lady Grimdour

Well, I'm HOOOOME! I'm free on the Monday afternoon if any Cardiffians are still around!


----------



## Flora

Harlequin said:


> So! The level of gay in this thread appears to have reached an all-time low. What's been going on with everyone!?


Nothing's been going on with me; I mean, my best friend/crush is still causing me occasional "WHY ARE YOU BEING SO POSSIBLY-BUT-PROBABLY-NOT-CRUSHING-ON-ME AGAIN" moments but otherwise all is fairly boring.

Well, at least she hasn't had a joking "date" with me for a while, since that would've been a tad awkward (long story short, we went bowling back when I still had a boyfriend, with my other friend and her boyfriend, and my then-boyfriend doing what he did best i.e. trying to invite himself, and I guess she tried to make both of us feel better for not having our boyfriends there (since her boyfriend is 600 miles away at college) by...jokingly telling me we were on a date? and winning me some weird sunflower-thing we named Bertha? and then she did it again a month later when we were hanging out with friend-and-boyfriend again.)


----------



## Blastoise Fortooate

People on my bus to school making me want to punch something and/or someone. Nothing new.


----------



## Harlequin

Grimdour, I've been home for a day already, and I think Kinova went home on the Friday (but I'm not sure so don't quote me on that). I won't be back until the 7th at the very least, probably more like the 8th or 9th. 

anyway! boyfriends, yay! homophobia, boo :(

Flower Doll, well, at least boring isn't a /bad/ thing! there is always that! 

homophobia boo :(

Prospects, yay! Those are always good. You have more lined up than I do, but that's not exactly hard because I have no one at the moment :P 

Relationships (even platonic ones) can be frustrating and scary, which is one reason why I've been avoiding them for so long. I'd like to find someone some time soon, and I suppose I've made steps to get there... I'm a member of my LGBT+ Society now and I actually go to the socials, so I've been meeting a lot of nice lesbians and bisexual girls... not so much the gays, but making new friends is fun too! A friend of mine wants to take me to a gay bar or club next semester (he's straight) so I'll probably let him do that. Um. Yeah.


----------



## Keltena

So I've been doing a little research and a lot of introspection, and I've realized that I basically identify as both female and male. It's not a masculine/feminine thing or any problem I have with how I am physically; I just want the freedom to present myself as either at any given time. I'm not entirely sure what the right word for it is; genderfluid and bigender seem to be more about switching genders than being both at once. I've been saying 'androgynous', which I think works pretty well, but I'm also a little iffy on it because it usually refers to appearance. Anyone know what the best word would be/what people would understand best?

I've come out to one person so far, a close friend, and he took it well; he asked a few questions about what I meant and I think he really got it overall. I'm less sure about how to tell other people and really nervous about my parents (for the record, they know I like both guys and girls but they don't know anything about this). I definitely want to tell them before I try expressing my gender around them in noticeable ways, like dressing more male or using different pronouns, but I'm not really sure how they'd take it. I guess what I need is a good way to explain why I'm telling them, and a way to convince my mom that what I want to do to express my gender isn't going to get me in trouble and is more than just messing around for the hell of it. Anyone have any ideas/experiences to share?

I'm also tossing back and forth how I want to go about expressing this. I'm not looking to 'change' anything, per se, since it's not like I'm any different aside from understanding myself a little better, but I feel like it would be nice to put some work into my wardrobe; I like 'pretty' clothes and casual clothes, but I'd also like some sort of nice, more male clothes? I'm also wondering about pronouns; I've used female all my life and it's what I'm used to responding to, but I also feel a little weird being completely lumped into female. What I'd like, I think, is to just let people use female or male pronouns for me, but that probably wouldn't be all that practical and I dunno how I'd explain it. I don't really want to use alternative pronouns, so sticking with female is probably where it's at, but I'm not sure.

Yeah, that's my epiphany for the present. Advice/information would really be appreciated if anyone has any.


----------



## Minish

Hi, Keltena! I'd say that unless you really, really, really want to have a word for yourself, I wouldn't bother trying to figure out whether bigender or genderfluid or something else or whatever works and just ignore the issue entirely. To be honest, finding a ~label that works feels more to me like trying to fit the requirements of the term rather than the other way around - when I overtly identify as something it's helpful in that it at least gives some idea, but really, if someone is genuinely interested they probably aren't going to mind a short, more personal explanation. The only reason I really quite like 'genderqueer' is because, like 'queer', it's really open and not very prescripty. But it definitely isn't that way for everyone, I know.

As for the other things, hm! As for pronouns, I'm not really sure... if you really really want to hear male pronouns used for you then it probably isn't best to say 'just use either', as most people - even those closest to you - will probably still choose the one that feels easiest to them. If you really would appreciate them going out of their way to make you feel more comfortable, then I'd suggest outright _asking_ them to maybe use male pronouns once in a while. If you just say 'feel free to' or 'I'd like it but you don't have to!' then you won't get what you want and it still won't feel right, in my experience. Good luck with that! That said, I know a few people who id as bigender who are fine with just one set of pronouns, but instead use both male and female names about the place? It's not ideal and it's not the same, but using different names rather than different pronouns can make it a lot harder to cave in just to cater others. If someone hears 'this is my name' rather than 'these are the pronouns I like', maybe they'd be less inclined to ask if they can use whichever they like, and I guess also it's easier for people to deal with and harder for them to mess up (not that messing up is their fault or particularly bad, you just need to correct and forgive them, but it still might feel bad for you).

I'd definitely think about different sorts of clothes!! It might make other people think 'she's a casual tomboy' rather than 'he's a guy!" but what really matters is, like you say, just understanding yourself a bit more. Good luck hope I've helped maybe!! :o


----------



## Saith

Nothing's really been happening for me, alas.
Although, I guess now I can vent about a tiny little thing. I told my mother about my applications for a bunch of receptionist jobs, and her reaction was 'oh god, Aaron, you're gonna be wearing skirts next!". My reaction was 'Uh huh, love you mother, gotta run, dude's home'.

Um, about Wales meet-ups though, I'll probably try to make it when I have some spare cash lying around. As it stands, with Christmas and that, I'm going to have a hard time even doing anything.

On the upside though, had an amazing night last night with all my mates who I hadn't seen in soooooo long. I also got my best mate laid (finally!), which felt good. B)
What felt better was seeing the Facebook comment from his new girlfriend (maybe!) complaining that he couldn't get it up. That was fun. :D

But uh, gaystuff... Gaystuff... Well it turns out, a good friend goes to Cardiff uni, and he said he'll show me around the nightlife (which I still shamefully haven't experienced gah) when we both have the cash. =)


----------



## Automata heart

not much for me, but it just hit me while watching videos of cosplayers i like coming out and talking about sexuality that i actually came out to my mother and that i am actually pans. (that i knew and was comfertable with, but because i have always felt this way and having a name for it was just having a name for it) shits weird.


----------



## Phantom

So, my mother found out by accident.

I didn't want to tell my mom, she found out, and was sort of pissed but had no reason to. 

See we had gone to the family cabin and my cell phone wasn't working so she loaned me hers. I used it to go on fb, and check some things. Well I was stupid and forgot to log out. The next morning my mom comes up to me telling me, "Why are you lying to *name? You don't need to lie to make friends" then she went on a rant. And I'm standing there like, wait, what the hell happened what are you talking about.

Turns out she'd seen I was still logged on so she helped herself to my PM's where I was 'coming out' to my friend. My mom was under the impression that I was lying to get attention or something. I told her I wasn't lying, her response was "yeah right". I stand my ground and said, "No, Mom, I'm not. I seriously am interested in women too." And she just gave me this 'whatever look'. I then told her, "Proof? Remember *name? We were really good friends... really good friends. In fact she was my girlfriend, for months. We broke up, but are still friends." I tried to explain that I was asexual biromantic, and she just looked at me like I'd taken crazy pills. She didn't get it, nor did she bother to get it. 

My mom just left the conversation hanging and  I still get this 'yeah right' look and rolled eyes like I was lying for attention or something. 

That's not as bad as it could have been I guess, she still doesn't seem to believe me at all. But it was wrong for her to go through my facebook messages. Talk about invasion of privacy??! I was actually more pissed of the fact she intruded on my PMs rather than her response to what they said.


----------



## Saith

Because this is the cardiff thread i need some clubbing advice
Im heading to Glam new years eve with some family so imwondering how strict the dress code is, how cheap the dribks etc etc
i know its not a gaybar but i just figured it might be relevent :)


----------



## Harlequin

Glam's iffy when it comes to drink prices. Sometimes it's all right and sometimes it's expensive, and given that it's NYE it's probably going to be expensive. Usually you can get fishbowl cocktaily things for like £5, and depending on how much you usually drink two to three of those is probably normal (although it depends on your level of predrink I guess!). Dress code is usually all right, I mean I typically go wearing a pair of nice-ish jeans and a nice t-shirt (I've worn this exact outfit to Glam before, although this particular photo was taken in Reflex (please ignore the level of mess in this photo, I was very buzzed at this point, and for clarification I'm the guy in the middle)). As far as shoes go like canvass shoes or converses or those stupid pissy slipper shoes that douchey hipsterfags like to wear should be all right.

I've never really had problems in Glam before but I don't know how LGBT+ friendly it is because all of my friends are straight and I don't particularly stick out as LGBT+, but I think in general Cardiff is okay, so you shouldn't have any problems... Glam is an all right place, too. AFAIK there are like three bars there, two on the first floor and then one on the second, but there may be a fourth somewhere I've never seen. Smoking area is right up the top. There's _always_ a queue for the men's toilets but it's nowhere near as bad as Tiger... Toilets are slippery, though. It's lethal.

That's about it really, I think, for my knowledge of Glam. Oh and my friend got banned for a while because he tried to smuggle out some stuff, it was lols.

ANYWAY so to add more Cardiff into this thread... I'm going to be in Cardiff from the 31st onwards, although on NYE I'll be going to Solus in the SU for the NYE thing and ... yeah. But then I'm in Cardiff after that I guess.


----------



## Lady Grimdour

Meetup? I leave on the 7th and will NOT miss this chance.


----------



## Saith

Harlequin said:


> Some pretty cool shit.


Thanks man. I'm not gonna worry about the whole LGBT stuff (ironic seeing as, well, this thread), 'cause I'm just going with some family. Me, a cousin, my sister and her boyfriend. Sort of 'initiating' him, you know?
Now I just hope they take my sister's id. She can't even pronounce the name on it.
Nice-ish jeans and a shirt? That's basically it for me - oh, and trainers? Some places don't like trainers.

But anyway man, thanks for all the great info. <3


----------



## Harlequin

Grimdour said:


> Meetup? I leave on the 7th and will NOT miss this chance.


Yeah there is potential for this I suppose!



Saith said:


> Thanks man. I'm not gonna worry about the whole LGBT stuff (ironic seeing as, well, this thread), 'cause I'm just going with some family. Me, a cousin, my sister and her boyfriend. Sort of 'initiating' him, you know?
> Now I just hope they take my sister's id. She can't even pronounce the name on it.
> Nice-ish jeans and a shirt? That's basically it for me - oh, and trainers? Some places don't like trainers.
> 
> But anyway man, thanks for all the great info. <3


yeah no worries! I thought I'd mention the LGBT+ thing anyway just in case anyone's interested. I doubt it'd really be an issue anyway. Trainers should be okay if they're nice trainers! I'm not sure how strict Cardiff is on NYE anyway because as a student I'm rarely in the city then, and like I know sometimes on the weekends dress codes are a bit different because of the number of locals who flood the city. Should be all right though. I'm not sure if Glam is a tickets-only venue this year (I think I heard it may be?? with a fairly expensive entry idk but maybe you've already sorted this) either, but if you have a ticket you should be fine for entry. or something, idek.

but yeah have fun!


----------



## Lady Grimdour

How does the 5th sound? Still no idea where, though. This also goes for anyone in the area.


----------



## Phantom

Ryubikon said:


> Aww, Phantom :(
> 
> Could have been a lot worse though. She's just in denial is all. One day she'll probably get over it. But as for her looking through your messages, that can't be excused. My mother tries to do that all the time with my texts so I have to be extra careful what I say. I understand how you feel there. You're 21, meaning you shouldn't have to put up with that.
> It's an invasion of privacy.


 
Yeah I know. I told her it's like walking up to a stranger's house and going through their mail. It's not right. Sad thing is this is the second time she's done it. She still insists that I'm lying.

 It's getting frustrating, around the holidays at least. Once this weekend is over I won't see her for a while, so no worries. 

Lately she's been on "Really? Oh yeah? Would you sleep with a woman?" At that point I headdesk and try to explain asexuality. Then she argues "You've had sex before!" Then I try to explain that I did it for him, it's just that I don't really care for it. "Yeah right".... at this point I feel like calling up my ex and asking a favor, kiss in front of my mom or something... good thing she and I are still really good friends and it wouldn't be too weird. Naw... I think my mom might go into shock or something. 

My dad politely has no comment. Neither does anyone else in the family. My uncle happens to be gay so he was pretty supportive, and kind of relieved that he wasn't the only one in the family. For some, like my cousins it hasn't come as a shock. Though they were a little 'unsensitive' if you could even call it that cause even I laughed when one said, "You'd so be the guy." It happens to be the same thing my best friend said when I told him. I didn't take offense they were just trying to make me laugh, and I guess it's kind of true, lol.


----------



## Saith

Worst night ever.
Mate got us kicked out of glam and ditched us in the middle of town.
Fucking hell.


----------



## Harlequin

Saith said:


> Worst night ever.
> Mate got us kicked out of glam and ditched us in the middle of town.
> Fucking hell.


oh, dear. :( if it's any consolation my night didn't go entirely as planned either!

also also also i went on a date sort of thing tonight and it was k.


----------



## Dannichu

Hey kids, I can't help but notice this has fallen to something like the 10th-most-recently-posted-in-club. Which is unacceptable, this is TCoD for god's sake. We're gayer than the Stonewall forums (I don't know if Stonewall actually has forums, but if it does, we'd probably lose in a heterosexuality competition).

So post thiiiiiings! If only for the sake of all the poor confused 13-year-olds who spend their evenings validating themselves by searching the internet for forums with LGBT+ threads, reading every post, and then searching for more. (do kids still do that? Or was it just me who did it in the first place?)

Here's a thing that made me giggle. Okay, it's not actually that nice, but has this rather excellent quote: "We supported civil partnerships because we believe that friendships are good for everybody." Nice one, Sentamu.


----------



## Zhorken

I'm genderqueer and that's the first time I've actually explicitly said that, as far as I know.  In particular I feel pretty good about ninety percent of the time, and then for nine of the remaining ten percent, I feel like a girl.  But I think that's only because I've never gotten the chance to present as one and I really want that option.

But yeah point is I don't generally want to stand out as a Something Else, I just want to be nothing in particular, and I guess what I was wondering is do these pronouns sound like that?  (And be honest; I'm not that attached to these pronouns yet and I won't mind.)  They're based on "person", which I like; the only thing I don't really like is that it could get confused with the preposition, but I think context makes them sound so different that it wouldn't really be a problem.  Also they sometimes feel really really marked, which is exactly what I don't want, but I'm not sure I can ask for non-binary pronouns and not feel that way sometimes.

EDIT: I guess also any general words on how to come across as a blank would be nice.


----------



## Harlequin

Dannichu said:


> Hey kids, I can't help but notice this has fallen to something like the 10th-most-recently-posted-in-club. Which is unacceptable, this is TCoD for god's sake. We're gayer than the Stonewall forums (I don't know if Stonewall actually has forums, but if it does, we'd probably lose in a heterosexuality competition).
> 
> So post thiiiiiings! If only for the sake of all the poor confused 13-year-olds who spend their evenings validating themselves by searching the internet for forums with LGBT+ threads, reading every post, and then searching for more. (do kids still do that? Or was it just me who did it in the first place?)
> 
> Here's a thing that made me giggle. Okay, it's not actually that nice, but has this rather excellent quote: "We supported civil partnerships because we believe that friendships are good for everybody." Nice one, Sentamu.


I keep trying! No one ever posts any more, it's sad. :( I'm with you on the trawling for LGBT+ related things, though. I used to do that all the time and I'd imagine young LGBT+ people would still do it. Or similar things. IDK. Just having this here is good too!



Zhorken said:


> I'm genderqueer and that's the first time I've actually explicitly said that, as far as I know.  In particular I feel pretty good about ninety percent of the time, and then for nine of the remaining ten percent, I feel like a girl.  But I think that's only because I've never gotten the chance to present as one and I really want that option.
> 
> But yeah point is I don't generally want to stand out as a Something Else, I just want to be nothing in particular, and I guess what I was wondering is do these pronouns sound like that?  (And be honest; I'm not that attached to these pronouns yet and I won't mind.)  They're based on "person", which I like; the only thing I don't really like is that it could get confused with the preposition, but I think context makes them sound so different that it wouldn't really be a problem.  Also they sometimes feel really really marked, which is exactly what I don't want, but I'm not sure I can ask for non-binary pronouns and not feel that way sometimes.
> 
> EDIT: I guess also any general words on how to come across as a blank would be nice.


"Per" and "pers" don't come across as "blank". _Nothing_ is really going to come across as blank because simply by using non-standard pronouns you're going to mark yourself as Something Else.


----------



## shy ♡

It/they/their/them are blank to me, but people seem to have a great dislike for them as legitimate pronouns. :v


----------



## Flora

Oh, I have things. I have loads of silly little anecdotes that continually make me doubt my friend's heterosexuality.

Uh, fiiiirst thing is that...well I should probably provide a little bit  of backstory. I have a dry-erase board in my locker that was originally  put there as a reminder but has since been commandeered by my crush and  our other friend. Crush wrote "*other friend* <3's *friend's crush*"  for whatever reason, and later when Jeanine (screw this whole crush  business it's not like she's gonna find this place) noticed I  semi-jokingly wrote "no one <3's me" underneath she erased it and  wrote "Jeanine <3's Rachel." noooot entirely sure how to take that.

aaaaand then in chorale we were singing something and our director  started going on about a kiss on the forehead or something (IT MAKES  SENSE IN CONTEXT) and then Jeanine kissed her hand and smacked me on the  forehead for some reason? And then when I mentioned it later she kissed  her hand again and put it on mine...

fnoagldshilsddsp what. the. actual. hell. arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh

(apparently the server is confused too, took it TEN MINUTES)


----------



## surskitty

Ryubikon said:


> If we need topics, then I'd like to bring up Fred Karger.
> 
> Now I'm not big into politics, so I don't want to say too much. Simply, what do you think of him? Does he even stand a chance in elections?


Uh, he's a _gay Republican_.  A gay Republican in a party that spends all of its energy these days on eroding the rights of anyone not a Christian rich white cis heterosexual man.  He'd probably get more votes running as a sparkly unicorn, no matter his politics.

He seems like a decent dude, though!





Zhorken said:


> EDIT: I guess also any general words on how to come across as a blank would be nice.


It's worth remembering that if people can't tell whether male or female, they tend to assume male.  :(


----------



## Saith

Zhorken said:


> I guess also any general words on how to come across as a blank would be nice.


Shave, like, twice a day. Some people don't which is kinda dumb.
Also figure out simple fashion stuff. If you look androgynous, but you're wearing baggy shirts and low-hanging jeans, they'll assume guy. If you're wearing well-fitting - but still neutral - clothes in your best colour, people'll be slightly less likely to categorise you.


----------



## shy ♡

Oh, real-life-appearance advice. o.o

Well, I'm coming from the other side of the sex-field (??? eh) so it's a bit different, plus my intention isn't to be perceived as neutrois, but. (speaking of check out http://neutrois.tumblr.com/) But uhm, I've noticed if you have small contradicting bits people tend to go 'wat' basically and are unable to figure out gender. Like, toss in feminine and masculine bits here and there so that you're a mish-mash?


----------



## Minish

Harlequin said:


> I keep trying! No one ever posts any more, it's sad. :( I'm with you on the trawling for LGBT+ related things, though. I used to do that all the time and I'd imagine young LGBT+ people would still do it. Or similar things. IDK. Just having this here is good too!
> 
> 
> 
> "Per" and "pers" don't come across as "blank". _Nothing_ is really going to come across as blank because simply by using non-standard pronouns you're going to mark yourself as Something Else.


I disagree! As a person who actually uses/is around people who use non-standard pronouns a lot, I think some _do_ come across in different ways. Maybe not necessarily completely blank, but certainly different... qualities? Feels? I don't know, pronouns are _important_ and it makes sense!

Obviously, in a 99% standard-pronoun-type environment, sure, they're always going to sound like ~Something Else~. There is pretty much _no_ escaping that though, and I'm sure Zhorken realises that. Around inclusive parts of the internet though, or inclusive RL spaces, the variety in what pronouns people use begins to show (and is, to me, both beautiful and fun). Anyway, I think the feelings pronouns have will differ for everyone. I know that I really latched onto the Spivak set because 'e' to me sounds really blank and basic and frank, if that makes sense, but still a little elegant because it's a nice letter!! ('ey' loses a bit of that, but maybe I just feel that way because I saw 'e' used first.)

Sie/hir to me feels far, far more marked, maybe mostly because they sound too close to she/her to me (you could say that 'e' sounds like 'he', but I don't hear it spoken aloud _that_ much, so I don't notice), so I've never really looked at them and felt I'd feel comfortable using them for me personally. And I don't like 'they' because it feels _too_ blank, no doubt because it's usually used for an _unknown_ gender rather than a non-binary gender. It feels too unpersonal, I guess.

As for per/pers... to me they don't sound very marked at all, but not 'blank' like 'e'. They seem like they have some character!! but not necessarily a feminine or masculine character, if that's what you mean. I think it's probably best if you just use a set you feel you really like, rather than rely on other people's impressions, because there's probably someone around who'd think they seem really girly or something, and then someone who'd feel the complete opposite. I've come across people who dislike Spivak pronouns because they seem marked, the complete opposite to how I feel!! I think they suit you if you like them!

I've been thinking about how I identify a bit lately!! When I first started identifying as genderqueer there was a bit of a lull but now it's in my thoughts a lot again. I think... hmm, I'm not sure how to explain it, but sometimes I wonder if I identify as female a _little_ bit? I feel like not many people would really get what I'm talking about if I explained, so I keep it to myself most of the time, but maybe I'll just ramble for a bit. I identify with female fictional characters a lot, I am much, much, _much_ more interested in female characters in fiction than male (male characters have to try reeeeeeeeally hard to even secure my attention in the first place nowadays because they are usually sooooo yawnworthy), and, of course, I identify really strongly with female/perceived-female experiences. I don't really _feel_ female at all, I'm just... really interested in femaleness? I don't know!

Also, I feel like if I said this to non-trans* people in my life who never reeeeally quite got it in the first place, it'll be like, justification to think "oh it's okay to treat em like e's female and think of em that way, then". :| I... guess I feel very much genderqueer but am simultaneously... _invested_ in femaleness?? woo inventing my own terminology. I mean, regardless, I'm going to keep identifying with female characters in fiction, be fairly on the femme side etc., and really it doesn't matter _that_ much if I can't figure out the right way to explain this to people who are at best only politely, bemusedly curious. I suppose I just shouldn't worry and have fun exploring my identity or something!!

Also also!! I mean apart from a moment when I was about 14 when I identified as asexual, I've never been much in that community at all, BUT lately I've been identifying a bit on the ace spectrum! I'm fairly sure I'm demisexual, and I would like to get into the ace community and read up. I think it would be valuable to me!!

The queer folks around my uni continue to be really really awesome. THIS PLACE IS GREAT too bad I'm super-super-shy..................

/what's new in the life of pretty-queer cirrus


ANYWAY. Super-glad there are posts here, I'm having fond memories of the LGBT club a few years ago when it was my favourite spot on the forums. :D Hi guys!!

EDIT: OOPS there was another page. I think personally I do a fairly okay job at coming across as genuinely androgynous a lot of the time, but I admit that it might be generally harder for a MAAB. :( I wouldn't really suggest neutral-colour or cut clothing because that generally gets pegged as male especially along with other masculine markers ... I'd say go for a mix of feminine and masculine markers! You have long hair, right? Bright clothes tend to confuse people into not knowing how to define!


----------



## Dannichu

Cirrus said:


> Bright clothes tend to confuse people into not knowing how to define!


They also help you fend off predators, attract a mate, and make you appear bigger than you actually are :D

Flora, it might be best to straight-up ask your friend, it sounds like it'd save you a lot of headache-inducing confusion. The moment could be awkward (okay, it probably would be a bit awkward either way), but you'd definitely laugh about it later and wouldn't have to keep analysing every little thing in an ultra-confused way. 

It is still very, very much in the works, but there is an outside possibility that I might be doing something involving gender and sexuality, perhaps specifically asexuality, for a PhD next year (or the year after). I'm not asexual, but it's a very interesting perspective through which to look at gender dyanamics, and it's barely been looked at at all.


----------



## surskitty

TW FOR EX-GAY SHIT AND MY LOCAL SCHOOL DISTRICT BEING FUCKHEADS http://unicornbooty.com/blog/2012/02/02/md-high-school-distributes-ex-gay-therapy-flyer-to-students/ http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2012/...ool-distruptes-ex-gay-propaganda-to-students/ http://www.towleroad.com/2012/02/pfox.html

*FUCK YOU t(-_-t)*

I'd send angry phone calls but phones require way too many spoons for me and mum seems to doubt that homophobia is a thing that exists in this area.


----------



## Flora

Dannichu said:


> Flora, it might be best to straight-up ask your friend, it sounds like it'd save you a lot of headache-inducing confusion. The moment could be awkward (okay, it probably would be a bit awkward either way), but you'd definitely laugh about it later and wouldn't have to keep analysing every little thing in an ultra-confused way.


Well, aside from the whole awkwardness aspect, none of my friends actually _know_ I'm bi. (despite the touchy-feely-ness they _all_ seem to think I'm straight. not that the touchy-feely-ness _comes _from my liking girls but that's beside the point) Actually, no one I know IRL (aside from Julie, who just _knows_ because she's creepy/psychic/whatever) knows about that.

And yeah, it'd be especially awkward because she has a boyfriend. That would be _very_ uncomfortable to deal with.


----------



## Saith

Dannichu said:


> They also help you fend off predators, attract a mate, and make you appear bigger than you actually are :D


I can't stop smiling.


----------



## Automata heart

guys, i need a bit of advice. 
see, we have a rainbow youth thing in my city, but i don't feel as though i would be welcome, as i am pansexual and its just not mentioned. i feel like its not a real sexuality and that people wouldn't know understand what it is, let alone give me good advice. i want to go, just to see what its like and make friends, but i'm really scared. advice?


----------



## Aletheia

that awkward moment when you're crushing on a guy and you realize it's completely pointless since you're too scared to ever come out of that lovely closet
oh well

also I had to explain to Mom what "homophobia" means yesterday
sigh


----------



## Harlequin

Automata heart said:


> guys, i need a bit of advice.
> see, we have a rainbow youth thing in my city, but i don't feel as though i would be welcome, as i am pansexual and its just not mentioned. i feel like its not a real sexuality and that people wouldn't know understand what it is, let alone give me good advice. i want to go, just to see what its like and make friends, but i'm really scared. advice?


I think you'll be welcomed. My university's LGBT+ Society is inclusive of everyone who's a gender or sexual minority, and I'd imagine even if the rainbow youth thing in your city doesn't specifically mention pansexuality you'd be welcome if you came and explained what it is!

Cirrus I have some things I want to say to you but they will have to wait until later! because I am tired and thinking is a bit hard :(

in slightly less srs news, the date I posted about a while back went very well! There've been like, four since. One of them was last night! :3


----------



## Automata heart

thanks Harlequin. ^__^ your right. also, congrats on the dates


----------



## Phantom

I am no longer watching the show House. I just finished watching my most recent episode. Has anyone else seen this? It is messed up. In this episodethere is an asexual couple and House treats asexuality like a disease. Great. And my mom's been watching this show while I've been trying to explain my asexuality to her. Now House has gone and erased all my progress.


----------



## shy ♡

Yes! I saw it! I was furious. I had the same reaction; House has been going downhill slowly for years but it was never so ridiculously _offensive_. :| Uhg... now I feel bitter about House in general which is just sad because I used to love him... stupid writers.


----------



## Phantom

For those who haven't watched the episode. Wilson has an asexual couple as patients, and House makes a bet with him that she's not asexual, that it doesn't exist and something can explain it. So he scans the guy and finds he has a brain tumor that is affecting his sex drive and giving him ED. Then his wife says she's not asexual, she just humored him. Basically they said it didn't exist. And they put this on national television. 

Link to a story. I just saw this episode and I had no idea so I was seriously shocked when I watched it.


----------



## Vladimir Putin's LJ

House got bisexuals wrong, then they did the annoying gay-tease a lot of mainstream shows do (looking right at you, Sherlock) to appeal to minorities without making the show too gay, I don't expect them to get anything right.

House M.d. is a great example of a show that should have quit while they were ahead.


----------



## Automata heart

i'm so surprised that aired. i thought people checked this kind of thing. but then again, i've only seen one show that had a gay male character and was actually treated like a normal character without them bringing attention to it all the time. (happy endings) and even that wasn't as good as it could be.


----------



## Blastoise Fortooate

Vladimir Putin's LJ said:


> ...did the annoying gay-tease a lot of mainstream shows do (looking right at you, Sherlock)


To be entirely fair, saying that _Sherlock _does a gay-tease is like saying the Chinese built an pretty nice wall.


----------



## Dannichu

I'm with you on Sherlock doing a big gay-tease, but the scene in Belgravia with  Irene talking to John and saying that he might well be straight but might also be in love with Sherlock was quite well done and seemed a great deal more meaningful than the usual 'lololol we're not a couple' such shows (including Sherlock) usually go for. But it lost all its Gay Points for making Irene a lesbian in love with Sherlock, because while you could argue that it's exactly the same thing as they did with John (and it pretty much is), I'd say it's way more offensive, if only because few if any heterosexual people get told they wouldn't be so if they only met the right man/woman.

Although the gay-tease is interesting - at the moment, there's a quite-bad yet charming crime drama airing called Rizzoli and Isles that's the most lesbianiriffic thing since Xena and the lesbian fans are mostly torn between loving it and shipping the leads to high heaven (sample scene) and being very annoyed that they should still be expected to look for scraps of lesbianism within mainstream TV like they did in the Xena years (mid-90's) instead of having actual gay women in gay relationships on television.


----------



## Vladimir Putin's LJ

I'm going to let you guys in on a secret: I've only watched the first two episodes of Sherlock and then I lost interest, but then I got a Tumblr and I watched every other episode in .gif form at least thrice over.



Blastoise Fortooate said:


> To be entirely fair, saying that _Sherlock _does a gay-tease is like saying the Chinese built an pretty nice wall.





Dannichu said:


> I'm with you on Sherlock doing a big gay-tease, but the scene in Belgravia with  Irene talking to John and saying that he might well be straight but might also be in love with Sherlock was quite well done and seemed a great deal more meaningful than the usual 'lololol we're not a couple' such shows (including Sherlock) usually go for. But it lost all its Gay Points for making Irene a lesbian in love with Sherlock, because while you could argue that it's exactly the same thing as they did with John (and it pretty much is), I'd say it's way more offensive, if only because few if any heterosexual people get told they wouldn't be so if they only met the right man/woman.


My problem with Sherlock is Moffat, one of the creators, because he is a boring boor. No jokes I watched the fan reactions and clips and gifs of the last episode (Reichenbach) and I honest-to-god thought they were building it up to John and Sherlock getting together in season three. I was really pleased with this idea because you never see two characters just get into a gay relationship without it being the focal point of the show, so I was thinking it was awesome how with-the-times this show was but then Moffat gave this gr8 interview saying PFFFFT NO SHERLOCK ISN'T GAY HOW CAN YOU EVEN THINK THAT ALSO HE'S NOT ASEXUAL BECAUSE ASEXUALS ARE B O R I N G

That really surprised on more than one level because: he said if Sherlock was gay he wouldn't live with John because essentially he'd just be so consumed with lust he wouldn't be able to work or something (because gays have no self control obvs) which is just stupid, and then he goes and says making him asexual would be boring. Totally, because a heterosexual reading of Sherlock Holmes is really novel and exciting and hasn't been done to fucking death. (I personally read him as asexual homoromantic in the original novels and so on but that's me)

The whole Irene episode was just terrible in general and completely misses the point of having her beat Sherlock by having him come in and save the day like the manly man he is (so manly he converts lesbians to the true sexuality aw yeah). Also the completely boring reading of Holmes being hot for her when Watson makes a point of saying he _respects_ her, not 'wants to bone her', which is much more significant since Holmes is a huge mysoginist asshole and he was beaten by a woman :v lol 2012 somehow managed to be less progressive than victorian times. Especially bad since he paraded it as a big feminist move which is just worth the largest eyeroll in the world.

My big problem with shows like this is that they're making money off the fact that being gay is edgy is trendy with 'the kids' and all that, without wanting to commit to actually having them be gay like it's not big deal because whoa, joking about poofs is funny, but having them on the show could make us lose a lil bit of profit and that's unacceptable. And they know gays will watch the show even without an overt relationship because we'll eat up any scraps they throw at us.
Basically big corporations are scared of breaking out of the true and tested safety mold because it's clearly about profit and not about telling a story. Maybe Gattiss will manage to make the show less of a crashing predictable bore but probably not.

Also yeah I'm complaining about the lack of normal gay male representation in the media but it's nothing compared to lesbian representation. In every show you have the stock non-threatening pet gay but I'm drawing a blank trying to come up with a show with a lesbian character. They always seem to be bisexual (and then always end up with a guy of course) or just not there? I've heard Glee has a lesbian in it but that's the only show I can think of and I'm not sure you're want to be associated with that trainwreck.

All in depressing state of affairs in GayTV where they make you believe they're progressive but we've barely moved on from Mr Humphries-style mockery (no insult meant to john inman, bless his soul, or the show itself, but in 40 years we should have moved on).

EDIT: whoops sorry for my tl;dr bad essay it's 3am and i'm ranting


----------



## Dannichu

Yessss to all of this. Actually, the Irene thing was an exceptionally bad case of 'lesbians on TV' because if she hadn't said it, nobody would've known and she'd have just been another River-style 'I fancy everyone' character. But the "I am gay" bit felt off not only in her fancying Sherlock and, within the episode, talking about how she loved dominatrixing (or whatever) a bunch of different men, is that, aside from a "lol, she's unconcious, she likes that", we don't see her have an emotional connection to any women at all!

Moffat /is/ a bit of an idiot when he tries things like 'feminism' and 'equality'. Shame, because he's actually a very good writer, and with Gatiss around, he's usually a bit less obnoxious. I think, possibly within the ASEXUALS ARE BORING speech, there was also a bit defending his choice to make Irene be helpless and saved by Sherlock in the end, and I can't remember exactly how it went, but it was to the effect of "In the original, Irene only got married to her husband and left, which is boring and un-feminist" ...and I actually can't remember what he said after that, because I am certian it was something along the lines of "and having her get captured and recued by Sherlock is MORE feminist!", but that's so ridiculous it can't be right :/ But, as anybody who saw the Immensely Problematic Doctor Who Christmas episode saw, when Moffat puts on his Feminism Hat, things go wrong ("Women are better than men because they have babies!"/"I started follwing you home and refused to stop until you married me, look at how romantic I am!"). 

But yes - the state of homosexuality on TV at the moment isn't excellent. Apparently there's a lesbian couple on Grey's Anatomy that are taken relatively seriously, and I think lesbian fans think it's well-written, but there was a LOT of anger when one of the characters first came out and got together with another woman, for the writers to write her out of the show three episodes later when they decided they wanted to do a lesbian storyline, but with a more attractive character. I have no idea what the Glee situation is (one of the cheerleaders is gay and the other bisexual and into a guy last I checked? And I don't know what Kurt's up to these days), and there's some apprehension because an American remake of Bad Girls might be going ahead - there's a lesbian storyline that runs through the first 3 series of Bad Girls (a UK drama set in a women's prison that aired in the 90's), which is regarded to be one of the best lesbian storylines of all time, and all information that's been released about the remake sounds like they're /trying/ to ruin it. In terms of other TV shows with lesbians, I think the Naiomi/Emily storyline on Skins was seen as excellent, and that's about all I can think of. But I don't think it's that much better for guys, I can only think of a couple of TV shows with an actual gay couple in - Torchwood had Jack and Ianto of course, but it was Massively Problematic, Six Feet Under had David and his boyfriends, and while he was messed up beyond all reckoning, so was everybody else on that show, so. Will and Grace opened the door for gay male characters, but Will was noticably far more undersexed than Grace and had, like, two boyfriends through the entire run? 

But all this leaves gay people (and queer people who're represented even less) in the most ridiculous situation - I quite like watching TV shows with a whole bunch of subtext, and it's fun and enough to stop me thinking (as much) "hey, what about some /actual/ gay characters?" - and I guess it's only until everyone refuses the Subtext Crumbs and demand that the TV networks do better that they will. :/


----------



## Jolty

after reading these posts I will continue to avoid Sherlock then
sigh Moffat.



> I have no idea what the Glee situation is (one of the cheerleaders is gay and the other bisexual and into a guy last I checked? And I don't know what Kurt's up to these days),


aaand since it was mentioned Glee is still terrible
Kurt and Blaine are still together but there's this other guy from Blaine's old school who's a bit of a tool and is into Blaine or something and Kurt is not pleased
But the thing with Santana and Brittany haha god. Santana was like, forcibly outed by the Straight White Main Character Guy (who does my fucking head in) because she's a bit mean to him. Then she comes out to her grandmother who pretty much disowns her. And all through this, Brittany, y'know the girlfriend, has like one line. And it was probably something "dumb" because errything she says is meant to be laughed at or some shit.

there's probably some stuff I forgot but bwah i dunno why i even watch glee but it is ENTIRELY Tailsy's fault


----------



## Minish

I agree with pretty much all of this!! It's a shame that Moffat's become so dodgy in various ways, I remember when he was just the-one-who-writes-creepy-episodes and nobody expected any of this. And I am _really_ not someone who should be trusted with knowing Doctor Who storylines, but there was a... Sally? Sally Sparrow?? In Blink? I remember her being pretty awesome. :C



Dannichu said:


> I have no idea what the Glee situation is (one of the cheerleaders is gay and the other bisexual and into a guy last I checked? And I don't know what Kurt's up to these days)


Glee is weeeeird with its gayish situations. Again, Glee isn't really my thing either, but as far as I've been able to tell, Kurt/Blaine is where everything is happy and Santana/Brittany is where everything is sad?? It's pretty telling that the storyline with two girls is the one where they choose to make their actual sexualities really vague, make them interested in several people at once leading to thrilling ~drama, and where nobody seems to really like them being into each other. Meanwhile, Kurt/Blaine is the most popular ship and have a really fun relationship. :( Still, I think there are things to like about it? When I was watching it kind of got played for laughs and was definitely really ambiguous.

Phantom: I heard about the House thing! :C Honestly, how ridiculous. House is always praised as this clever pop culture-friendly show and then it just totally messes up. I've really stopped looking at popular shows and things for actual inclusiveness.

EDIT: right, yeah, the being disowned by her grandmother part... I guess in a way it's good? Since Kurt's dad being won round and everyone loving him after a while was a _bit_ unrealistic in representing a lot of coming out situations. But Glee seems to imply that Kurt should be a gay role model!! look be proud of who you are it'll be okay!!!!!!!! and then the lesbian character seems to just have really awful things happen to her continuously @_@

Brittany's entire character is just played for wacky laughs so yeah there is just nooooooo good going to come out of looking at her for character development in any way.


----------



## Tailsy

The Brittany/Santana ship makes me incredibly uncomfortable, mostly because the show flips from 'ha ha, Brittany is so dumb!!' to 'look lesbians we're taking this seriously LOOK LESBIANS SANTANA IS EMOTIONAL SEE', and it doesn't work. Especially in one episode which is _all about Santana coming to terms with her sexuality_, and yet Brittany barely appears in it at all??? It's pretty much 'Santana <3 Brittany but uh idk about the other way around lol'. It makes me sad. Partly because I want Faberry instead!!!

Blaine and Kurt are just so saccharine. But it's sweet idk I think they're nice regardless.

Santana is like the best character tho other than Blaine "sunshine and rainbows" Anderson so I don't caaaare. But if you're going to talk about how bad [x] representation is in [x] piece of media you should probably watch it first! And form an opinion. Even if it is Glee and Glee is awful. You can suffer. You can do it! For the dance numbers!! For Blaine wearing an eyepatch!!


----------



## Tailsy

The Brittany/Santana ship makes me incredibly uncomfortable, mostly because the show flips from 'ha ha, Brittany is so dumb!!' to 'look lesbians we're taking this seriously LOOK LESBIANS SANTANA IS EMOTIONAL SEE', and it doesn't work. Especially in one episode which is _all about Santana coming to terms with her sexuality_, and yet Brittany barely appears in it at all??? It's pretty much 'Santana <3 Brittany but uh idk about the other way around lol'. It makes me sad. Partly because I want Faberry instead!!!

Blaine and Kurt are just so saccharine. But it's sweet idk I think they're nice regardless.

Santana is like the best character tho other than Blaine "sunshine and rainbows" Anderson so I don't caaaare. But if you're going to talk about how bad [x] representation is in [x] piece of media you should probably watch it first! And form an opinion. Even if it is Glee and Glee is awful. You can suffer. You can do it! For the dance numbers!! For Blaine wearing an eyepatch!!


----------



## Dannichu

Jolty said:


> after reading these posts I will continue to avoid Sherlock then
> sigh Moffat.


For all its faults, Sherlock is still an absolutely excellent piece of television that stands head and shoulders above pretty much anything else we've seen on TV lately. It's not perfect, but I can't think of anything on TV (and I watch a helluva lot of it) that isn't problematic in some way, and if you can grit your teeth during a short "I'm a lesbian, but look at how in love with this man I am!", you might well really enjoy yourself. 

(shall reply more later)


----------



## Keltena

Can I just say quickly that I find all this media discussion really interesting and you guys should never stop? I may not be really participating in it because oops, I don't watch any of those shows, but I am lurking happily here~

So I need some advice. I've been going through some... gender identity flip-flops lately, like the past few weeks. It's pretty uncomfortable and unfun most of the time because sometimes I just am not okay with having curves and boobs and looking feminine, and I don't really know what to do about it except put on a binder (I got one from a local LGBT youth group) and a looser shirt and tell myself I look masculine. :/ I got a haircut, and that feels better because it looks sort of boyish and can also be cute in a girl way I guess? But I kind of want more guy clothes at some point, and I also wonder if I can get a binder that works any better than the one I have (it's Underworks, and unfortunately I think it's the smallest size I can wear, but maybe there are different styles or something? need to do research), but that's sort of where my problem comes in.

See, I talked to my mom over Christmas about being genderqueer, and while she was pretty good about it generally (albeit not really getting it?), one thing she mentioned as being specifically uncomfortable about was the idea of me binding. She brought it up because I did it for cosplay once a few years back, and the fact that she doesn't like me doing it even for a costume should tell you just how much it bothers her. I forget exactly how she put it, but she said that it made her feel like I wasn't okay with my body or wanted to change it -- which is true now, but she put it very negatively, as if she equated it with harming my body for the purpose of appearance. I'm going home for a week at the end of the month, and since I'm binding on a semi-regular basis now, I'd like to get it out in the open with her. I don't feel like I _need_ her approval, but I'd really like her to be okay with it if at all possible, so I want to talk to her about that and generally about some of the dysphoria-ish feelings I've had.

I think one of the issues she has with it is sort of a generational thing? She's a big feminist, and she really doesn't understand the concept of gender; I think the idea that there's any difference between 'male' and 'female' besides the physical bothers her. I understand where she's coming from, but I also just don't know how to explain to her what I mean by gender and how I can have the issues I'm having without it being about gender roles or masculinity/femininity. Does anyone have any ideas/experiences or know any good resources -- books, websites, etc. -- I could point her towards? I'm hoping to talk to her about this at least a little over the phone within the next week, and talk more in person when I'm home.

On a happier note, I'm auditioning for True Colors! It's a theater program for LGBT kids and allies, and you get paid for it if you get in! I dunno if I'll get called back or not, but I am excited for it anyway. c:


----------



## Byrus

Isn't Glee pretty transphobic too? I'll admit I haven't watched it (definitely not my thing), so I'm mostly going by this post. I know Glee has a lot of LGBT fans here, so I was kinda wondering what they thought of the casual use of the slur "tranny". 

I did however, listen to their version of "Born this way" where they were fine with the gay positive lyrics, but completely cut out the trans positive lyrics for some reason. It really did piss me off, I'm sick of the T in LGBT being ignored. =|


----------



## Saith

Will and Grace is like black-face but for gay people.


----------



## Minish

Keltena said:


> Does anyone have any ideas/experiences or know any good resources -- books, websites, etc. -- I could point her towards? I'm hoping to talk to her about this at least a little over the phone within the next week, and talk more in person when I'm home.


Yay, hi Keltena!!

I feel like I should have advice, but really, I know personally I would just... not tell her at all and keep it hidden. :c I know you want to get it in the open, and maybe you're more resilient when it comes to explaining things to generally well-meaning but totally confused and upset people than I am, but I feel personally sometimes it's genuinely just not worth it at all. I can't remember _ever_ having a real desire to explain things like this to my family (though we're not particularly close at all anyway). But I understand what it must feel like and how frustrating it must feel since every so often it bothers me. :c

It's really, really hard to explain why gender identity is important to people who themselves have probably had to fight and argue about gender being socially constructed and only as meaningful as we make it blah blah, (though argh it is even _harder_ trying to explain your own gender identity to someone who already sees gender as a big thing but for the wrong reasons, hi mum). Sometimes it feels super-wrong trying to educate people who otherwise are staunch feminists and have already decided that yay they finally understand gender after all that hard work breaking down socialisation!! Maybe a talk about gender itself could be useful? She might not really get your situation (with the binder and things) before she can fully appreciate why anyone would feel that way in the first place.

I mean I guess that's. Pretty vague. And what you already want to do, it's just _how_ to talk about this. But ignoring gender roles and that kind of thing, just try to talk about how you see gender itself? If anything, she might at least start to come to terms with it being something you strongly feel and that you'd be making informed choices. She does seem well-meaning. :c

As for resources, I really don't know, I rarely find anything good in this area. All I can think of are endless tumblr posts to this effect? (ironic title, hee) And I'm not sure how that'd be useful since, well, its answer to 'is sex biological and gender social?' is 'sex is social too!!!!!!' and... not terribly helpful here but thanks. But I will keep you in my thoughts and try to find something!!



Saith said:


> Will and Grace is like black-face but for gay people.


Nnnnnnno.

EDIT: mega-ewwwww forgot about Glee's transphobia history, thanks Byrus. :c Though lol, the trans line being omitted from the Gaga song is kind of sadlarious when you remember she's kind of often transphobic herself anyway...... sigh.


----------



## Dannichu

Cirrus said:


> I agree with pretty much all of this!! It's a shame that Moffat's become so dodgy in various ways, I remember when he was just the-one-who-writes-creepy-episodes and nobody expected any of this. And I am _really_ not someone who should be trusted with knowing Doctor Who storylines, but there was a... Sally? Sally Sparrow?? In Blink? I remember her being pretty awesome. :C
> 
> EDIT: right, yeah, the being disowned by her grandmother part... I guess in a way it's good? Since Kurt's dad being won round and everyone loving him after a while was a _bit_ unrealistic in representing a lot of coming out situations. But Glee seems to imply that Kurt should be a gay role model!! look be proud of who you are it'll be okay!!!!!!!! and then the lesbian character seems to just have really awful things happen to her continuously @_@


Sally Sparrow was pretty cool, but within the same episode, Blink, there are not one, but two instances of guys following women until they 'give in' to their advances - a fairly standard scene with Sally and Billy (the police officer who gets caught by the angels and ends up an old man), and an "are you going to stop following me?/No, I don't think I will! THEY END UP MARRIED" scene with her sent-to-the-past Nightingale friend and the guy she marries. But I agree - Moffat was best when writing episodes within RTD's longer story arcs - RTD's plots weren't quite as good, but he got more Stuff right, and I think his characters are more fun. 

And, let's be fair, Moffat did give us time-travelling interspecies sword-weilding lesbians in the most-watched kid's show in Britian (and a pretty fantastic lesbian couple in Jekyll) so we can't hate on him _too_ much.

And re: the coming out story on Glee - I've not seen it, but I don't know how comfortable I feel with 'bad' coming out stories on TV, especially stuff aimed at teens. Aside from when they're pretty much explicitly saying "look how bad these parents are for reacting this way!", it just seems problematic to terrify gay kids who're thinking of coming out (and generally make everybody think it should be a MASSIVE DEAL) for the sake of television drama.

Hiiii Keltena~ I'm not very good with gender identity stuff, but absolute best of luck with everything, it doesn't sound like a very good time :/ I think you're right about lots of ideas about gender being very generational, and I can sort of see where your stepmother might be coming from in thinking that binding is you supressing/rejecting femininity, which is sort of the opposite to what second-generation 'bra-burning' feminists were going for, but while I don't have any useful links off the top of my head, I think with time and patience from you, your stepmother will come around.

And good luck with your theatre thing! It sounds excellent :D



Saith said:


> Will and Grace is like black-face but for gay people.


Oh, that's unfair. If nothing else, it opened the door for gay characters on mainstream daytime television. It wasn't the best representation of gay people in the world, ever, but I'm pretty sure it did more good than harm.

Although, to continue the discussion of gay people in sitcoms, you know who were cool? Carol and Susan in Friends. They got married on one of the most mainstream TV shows at the time in the early 90's! And were actually represented really quite well (terrible, terrible hats notwithstanding).


----------



## Phantom

When I think of well represented lesbian couples for some reason I always go back to Willow and Tara from Buffy.


----------



## Dannichu

Don't get me wrong, I love Joss, and Willow and Tara are my favourite canon couple of all time, but they're not perfect, and this absolutely excellent article outlines why not. Dead/evil lesbians have been done to (pardon the pun) death.


----------



## Harlequin

I can't really think of many lesbians on television. Like, actually interesting characters who aren't just incidental who also happen to be lesbian. There's also a really sad lack of trans characters, but I think at the moment that might be more of a good thing than a bad thing; people find it difficult to do gays, lesbians and bisexuals right, and I think most portrayals of trans characters would be quite bad. The only trans character I can really think of too is Alexis Meade from _Ugy Betty_. At the time I didn't think that was one especially bad, but maybe I'm wrong? 

Personally I'd be more interested in seeing more gay male protagonists in stable relationships, or just as protagonists at all, but that's because I'm slightly biased (sorry!). It's not like there's a finite amount of quiltbag that can be on TV at any one time though, right?

...right?


----------



## opaltiger

Prop 8 ruling upheld on appeal.


----------



## shy ♡

Byrus said:


> Isn't Glee pretty transphobic too? I'll admit I haven't watched it (definitely not my thing), so I'm mostly going by this post. I know Glee has a lot of LGBT fans here, so I was kinda wondering what they thought of the casual use of the slur "tranny".
> 
> I did however, listen to their version of "Born this way" where they were fine with the gay positive lyrics, but completely cut out the trans positive lyrics for some reason. It really did piss me off, I'm sick of the T in LGBT being ignored. =|


weh I'm too tired/spoonless to add to much of this but having watched Nip/Tuck, I can say that _no one_ on the show is likeable for any reason. It's one of those black and grey morality/Sliding Scale of Idealism Versus Cynicism shows, where the grey/idealism is nearly nonexistent. The main characters are meant to be hated because the show is about how plastic surgery is overdone. :v That said, I personally found one of the trans characters to be likable, even given the shows' standards; and it had a _very_ good lesbian (main) character who even had a relationship with the trans woman!! They screwed up a lot on other things though, but yeah. 

Basically it's easy to criticize a show without watching it, and it's easy to criticize a show as dark as Nip/Tuck because... it's basically like watching a nightmare. 9_9


----------



## Skyman

opaltiger said:


> Prop 8 ruling upheld on appeal.


Next stop, Supreme Court-either that, or a larger panel, but we all know that it'll go to the Supreme Court immediately, and even if it doesn't then it will eventually make its way there.


----------



## Minish

Dannichu said:


> Although, to continue the discussion of gay people in sitcoms, you know who were cool? Carol and Susan in Friends. They got married on one of the most mainstream TV shows at the time in the early 90's! And were actually represented really quite well (terrible, terrible hats notwithstanding).


Yessss. Say what you will about Friends, but they did something *so* right there and I will never stop mentioning it routinely. They were just meant to be *perfectly* normal (particularly no more or less glamorous than the other characters), Ross' silliness about them got lots of eyerolls from the other characters, and all I can think is how they were very likely the first female couple my sister ever saw on TV as we watched it together. And I feel pretty okay about that.

Not to mention Susan was hilarious. :D Just the right amount of weary snark.


----------



## Cerberus87

Harlequin said:


> I can't really think of many lesbians on television. Like, actually interesting characters who aren't just incidental who also happen to be lesbian. There's also a really sad lack of trans characters, but I think at the moment that might be more of a good thing than a bad thing; people find it difficult to do gays, lesbians and bisexuals right, and I think most portrayals of trans characters would be quite bad. The only trans character I can really think of too is Alexis Meade from _Ugy Betty_. At the time I didn't think that was one especially bad, but maybe I'm wrong?
> 
> Personally I'd be more interested in seeing more gay male protagonists in stable relationships, or just as protagonists at all, but that's because I'm slightly biased (sorry!). It's not like there's a finite amount of quiltbag that can be on TV at any one time though, right?
> 
> ...right?


There was a trans character in a recent Brazilian series. They took a male actor and transformed him so well into a female-looking person that some watchers mistook him for a woman. The team behind the series did a great job with him and his portrayal was excellent as well. The voice and the mannerisms were spot on.

It's difficult to see trans characters that aren't comic relief because you won't easily find suitable actors. A trans female really has to be played by a man to be convincing, but it's not easy to find male actors with androgynous bodies. It's much easier to create a trans male character because women are more adaptable.

You can have women play trans females (like Lisa Edelstein did IIRC) but for me it seems a little off.

Oh and the very reason I liked House was because it challenges our beliefs, all the time. House isn't pro anything, and is anti-everything. He goes by his own rationality.


----------



## Momo(th)

Harlequin said:


> I can't really think of many lesbians on television.


Well, _Degrassi_ is a show that I don't like, but it has a few major lesbian characters.

On a side note, I found out what sexuality I am; asexual. I guess that's why I feel no attraction to my female friends.


----------



## shy ♡

Cerberus said:


> There was a trans character in a recent Brazilian series. They took a male actor and transformed him so well into a female-looking person that some watchers mistook him for a woman. The team behind the series did a great job with him and his portrayal was excellent as well. The voice and the mannerisms were spot on.
> 
> It's difficult to see trans characters that aren't comic relief because you won't easily find suitable actors. A trans female really has to be played by a man to be convincing, but it's not easy to find male actors with androgynous bodies. It's much easier to create a trans male character because women are more adaptable.
> 
> *You can have women play trans females (like Lisa Edelstein did IIRC) but for me it seems a little off.*
> 
> Oh and the very reason I liked House was because it challenges our beliefs, all the time. House isn't pro anything, and is anti-everything. He goes by his own rationality.


... what.


----------



## Aletheia

So guys
I hate to disrupt your discussion of QUILTBAG characters on TV
but I'd just like to report that I've been getting these pesky butterflies in my stomach whenever someone refers to me as a female
Wat do


----------



## shy ♡

I'd say try going as female online, see how it works for you.


----------



## Aletheia

Which is exactly what happened, though inadvertently- I gushed about my pseudo-boyfriend in an IRC I frequent, presumably leading someone to think I'm female
and the next thing I know people are referring to me as "her" and _why does it feel so nice_


----------



## Blastoise Fortooate

Harlequin said:


> The only trans character I can really think of too is Alexis Meade from _Ugy Betty_. At the time I didn't think that was one especially bad, but maybe I'm wrong?


As Seraph mentioned, _Degrassi _(whatever its flaws) tends to have a ton of queerage goin' on. Especially, the few episodes I've seen are the ones with Adam, a transgender boy who seems (as far is little old cis me can tell) to be quite a positive portrayal of the concept, in them. There's drama about it, i.e. 'my grandma doesn't know and my mom is pressuring me into being a girl again' and stuff like that, but I think drama is par for the course in that show, so. :\

In light of the news, for anyone who hasn't seen it, Prop 8 - The Musical.


----------



## octobr

jumps the topic back a little

Hi I've watched Sherlock and tbh the gay tease, as we're talking about it, feels a lot nicer than a lot of other shows because instead of 'lmao ur gay!!' it's 'oh look at you two perfect for each other let me just get the candles' 

but I don't see john being gay at sherlock at all, not when he's too busy being sherlock's dad and sherlock is too busy being a fourteen-year-old masquerading as a grown man.


----------



## shy ♡

No Jawn and Sherlock are definitely a couple. They're an ace couple but Sherlock at least is in a relationship with Jawn whether Jawn realizes it or not. 

This is my canon get out. >|

(Honestly though it happens a lot with ace people that one will latch onto a person and the other will not realize it because it is so similar to friendship. Jawn/Sherlock pretty much _is_ an ace relationship. Although in my canon they are homoromantic asexuals, as VPLJ said, it can easily be a one-way relationship with Jawn not realizing it.)


----------



## Harlequin

came out to my mother today, was k. 

back to your discussions


----------



## Diz

Well, as for the House discussion, it's pretty clear throughout the show that we're not supposed to agree with House or sometimes even sympathize with him. For the most part, in the asexuality episode, I sympathized and agreed with Wilson. House just treats everything like a disease, and in this case it was, which is unfortunate. 

I'd like to think of Susan and Carol from Friends and Jack and Karen from Will and Grace almost like Lucy from I Love Lucy. Sure, they didn't play characters that were very positive about their stereotype (LGBT+ People/Women) but they were on TV and paved the way for shows that had more positive LGBT+/Feminine roles.

As for a show that does amazingly with it's LGBT+ Characters, I'd like to point out Warehouse 13, featuring a bisexual female HG Wells, and a gay member of the team, Steve Jinks.

Ummmm, right now I have a girlfriend, so that's not very LGBT related...but I did get kissed on the neck by a boy a couple of weeks ago.


----------



## shy ♡

Oh I completely forgot! White Collar has lesbians. Well, only one is a main character, but. She's pretty cool. The show itself isn't mind-blowing but it's good enough? And has lesbians, so. (Also Matt Bomer, who is awesome and gay irl.)


----------



## Butterfree

House did have that pregnancy episode where House spent most of it making fun of everyone who called the fetus a baby but then when he was doing the surgery to fix the fetus somehow suddenly _its arm kind of touched him_ and there was a long meaningful shot of his eyes and then at the end of the episode he totally did think it was a baby!!1 So it really shouldn't have been beyond them to make an episode where House thinks asexuality is some kind of disease (which fits with his character so I'm not opposed to _that_ part) but is then either proven wrong or at least completely fails to find evidence that they're sexual despite repeated attempts.

Did Wilson at least point out that even if these particular people weren't "really" asexual there are plenty of real asexuals out there?


----------



## Phantom

Butterfree said:


> House did have that pregnancy episode where House spent most of it making fun of everyone who called the fetus a baby but then when he was doing the surgery to fix the fetus somehow suddenly _its arm kind of touched him_ and there was a long meaningful shot of his eyes and then at the end of the episode he totally did think it was a baby!!1 So it really shouldn't have been beyond them to make an episode where House thinks asexuality is some kind of disease (which fits with his character so I'm not opposed to _that_ part) but is then either proven wrong or at least completely fails to find evidence that they're sexual despite repeated attempts.
> 
> Did Wilson at least point out that even if these particular people weren't "really" asexual there are plenty of real asexuals out there?


Wilson is really confused by it and starts researching it, and he does say that, 'It's an actual orientation.'.


I understand where people are coming from, but as an asexual trying to explain to my mother, (Who basically thinks it's 'the end of the world I will never have granbabies'), who watches that show it's her ONLY experience with asexuality. She actually said I should try to go to the doctor about it. She's so naive it makes me sad. But that's the first open time I've heard of an ACTUAL asexual couple, even though they weren't... it's really confusing.


----------



## Diz

Yeah, I understand that could be very frustrating


----------



## Automata heart

Harlequin said:


> came out to my mother today, was k.
> 
> back to your discussions


woo~! *pops party poppers!* i'm glad it went well!


----------



## Lorem Ipsum

Hello QUILTBAG, very real question here for everyone. *Pubic hair* or *no pubic hair* - which do you prefer on your sexual partner?


----------



## Jolty

Lorem Ipsum said:


> Hello QUILTBAG, very real question here for everyone. *Pubic hair* or *no pubic hair* - which do you prefer on your sexual partner?


bit of an odd question
for me i probably wouldn't care either way

i have a question i want to ask people too (the trans people in particular) but i will wait for more replies to this one first so i don't clog.


----------



## Minish

I prefer whatever makes my partner feel comfortable! That goes for most things.


----------



## Zora of Termina

QUILTBAGs, I have a question.
It might sound a bit dumb, but. If you're planning on participating in the Day of Silence, does it still count if you're talking to your fiance via microphone?


----------



## Skyman

Zora of Termina said:


> QUILTBAGs, I have a question.
> It might sound a bit dumb, but. If you're planning on participating in the Day of Silence, does it still count if you're talking to your fiance via microphone?


I believe it does, since the whole point is to be silent the entire day.


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## Vladimir Putin's LJ

Re:pubic hair, I actually quite like pubic hair (and body hair in general) but if my boyfriend wanted to shave then I might whine but it's his body so I'd deal :v

Also I guess for Day of Silence you're not meant to talk all day but honestly it's to prove a point to non-queer people so if you're talking to your girlfriend alone in your room or something I think it's alright? I don't know.

Also in other news I've got a consult with a gender therapist on the 3rd of April and he works in a hospital with an endocrinology department so if I'm really lucky maybe he'll prescribe me hormones after seeing me a few times :Dc maybe. I'm a little nervous about seeing him even though I'm confident about my identity but I've heard horror stories about terrible doctors... also my mum still refuses to use my name and male pronouns because her therapists have told her not to and I can't imagine why except for the fact that they don't believe I'm trans, and I guess she doesn't either because she's not respecting my wishes?
We've talked about it and she says she does believe me but she wants confirmation from a therapist first before 'encouraging' me which means no she doesn't believe me at all.


----------



## Byrus

Lorem Ipsum said:


> Hello QUILTBAG, very real question here for everyone. *Pubic hair* or *no pubic hair* - which do you prefer on your sexual partner?


 Man, the unnerving grin of the pig in your av makes this random question look kinda creepy. :p



Vladimir Putin's LJ said:


> Also in other news I've got a consult with a gender therapist on the 3rd of April and he works in a hospital with an endocrinology department so if I'm really lucky maybe he'll prescribe me hormones after seeing me a few times :Dc maybe. I'm a little nervous about seeing him even though I'm confident about my identity but I've heard horror stories about terrible doctors... also my mum still refuses to use my name and male pronouns because her therapists have told her not to and I can't imagine why except for the fact that they don't believe I'm trans, and I guess she doesn't either because she's not respecting my wishes?
> We've talked about it and she says she does believe me but she wants confirmation from a therapist first before 'encouraging' me which means no she doesn't believe me at all.


 That's great! But I think you have to do that real-life test (where you live as your proper gender for at least a year) before you can get hormones? I dunno, I guess it varies by country, but that's how it went for me. Either way, good luck with your therapy, and just try and be really patient, it's definitely worth it in the end.


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## shy ♡

Byrus said:


> That's great! But I think you have to do that real-life test (where you live as your proper gender for at least a year) before you can get hormones? I dunno, I guess it varies by country, but that's how it went for me. Either way, good luck with your therapy, and just try and be really patient, it's definitely worth it in the end.


It's different wherever you are. It's more logical to assume that if you've known you're trans for over a year, you shouldn't have to go through that ridiculous 'real life experience'. (I don't support the whole year thing either way, honestly.)


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## Byrus

Pathos said:


> It's different wherever you are. It's more logical to assume that if you've known you're trans for over a year, you shouldn't have to go through that ridiculous 'real life experience'. (I don't support the whole year thing either way, honestly.)


 I don't support it either. I imagine it must be really horrible for people who don't "pass" too. I managed to pass and even then it was a nightmare.


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## shy ♡

It is. I've been waiting months just for this goddamn endocrinologist to get back to me after the months of therapy and. :| Blah.


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## Jolty

Pathos said:


> It's different wherever you are. It's more logical to assume that if you've known you're trans for over a year, you shouldn't have to go through that ridiculous 'real life experience'. (I don't support the whole year thing either way, honestly.)


yeah i've been going to a gender clinic for two years now and i'm still not on hormones and won't be until september at the /very/ earliest.
with my place they say you need to meet certain requirements and whatnot and then after the initial 3 appointments (which i have to do a second time because i got discharged last year), you can start """""the real life experience""""" and then about 3 month into that, hormones getto daze.

since it's now relevant
has anyone here ever lost friends over their gender identity or sexual orientation?

my best friend of 8 years cut off all ties with me yesterday because i recently asked him to call me by my male name. i no longer have any friends whatsoever in this town and i'm stuck here until september.

i still have to ask my mum to do the same (lol gender clinic requirements) but i'm shitting all the bricks over it. i have until 3rd of april which is my next appointment ugh


----------



## shy ♡

Honestly I've become tempted to just buy t off of ebay. -_- If I knew the right prescription, I'd do that. Sigh. Made even more ridiculous because t is actually _free_ in israel once you get it prescribed. If that ever happens.

re: losing friends, I haven't. I'm so picky with friends to begin with, and... terrible at even making friends with the people I'd choose to be friends with, that irl I only have my sister as a friend. (she's a foster sister who was my best friend before that.) So... have not had that experience, no. :\ 

I'd suggest, with your mom, that you have her come to therapy sessions because it seems to be a lot easier for them to 'believe' it when told the whole thing from a therapist. (Apparently doctors know you better than you know yourself, as far as parents are concerned. :|) My mom did like, a heel-face-turn with her beliefs surrounding this after my therapist told her she basically has to for my sanity.


----------



## Harlequin

I don't think I've ever lost friends because of my sexual orientation, and if I have then they obviously weren't great friends to start with because I haven't noticed!

also, re: pubic hair: I'd rather my boyfriend didn't shave it all off, but he has to at least keep it a bit tidy. It gets in your mouth and teeth otherwise. It's purely a practicality thing!


----------



## Saith

Recently outted to my entire family and all my friends by my cousin.

So uh.

That was fun. :/

And uh. Yeah. Now lotsa people kinda don't like me. Most of them still do. It's just a bit of a nightmare though, because now I'm 'the gay one'. Which gets annoying when there's a hot girl and I'm all 'SHHHHHHHHH!!!' and also all the rest of the time too.
Although now it's okay for me to wear make-up so...???

*e:* Pubes: Nice on a guy, not on a girl. In the same way big boobs are nice on a girl but not on a guy. I mean it all depends of course on the presentation. A bloke with a fucking thatch of coarse black springy hairs is gonna be just as bad as a girl with third-degree razor burns on her snatch.

*e2:* I'm hoping that, seeing as this is the QUILTBAG club, you realise that I'm using 'guy' and 'girl' to refer to your identification not your assignment. Put away the knives.


----------



## Vladimir Putin's LJ

Byrus said:


> That's great! But I think you have to do that real-life test (where you live as your proper gender for at least a year) before you can get hormones? I dunno, I guess it varies by country, but that's how it went for me. Either way, good luck with your therapy, and just try and be really patient, it's definitely worth it in the end.


Yeah, I'm pretty excited about it! I'm doing my transition in Belgium, and the requirement in Belgium is that you have to have been feeling trans for at least two years. I've been consciously aware for much longer than that but obviously I can't prove it, but:
- I came out to my mother a little over two years ago and she'll verify it
- I've been seeing my psychiatrist for longer than that and we've discussed trans issues and she's willing to write me a letter saying I show signs of being trans
- If she drops the balls on that I have a back-up in the form of a friend's therapist who said he's totally willing to write me a letter saying I've seen him for two years (though I've never met him) to get around that law (because he's the nicest guy ever apparently???)

So unless something horrible happens I should be able to dodge that bullet. Some therapists will claim that you'll have to see a _gender _therapist for two years but they are lying scum because there is no such law in Belgium or France (though France recently adopted the Harry Benjamin standards of care so they're probably going to start doing that stupid real life year test). I also kind of know I should avoid dodgy topics like the fact that I'm gay and so on but I'm confident in my male identity and I think the gender therapist will see that.
He is asking for some sort of odd stuff, like he wants to see my 'High Potential' diagnosis certificate (basically 'you have a high IQ but piss-poor decision-making and social skills lol' which is gr8) and he specifically wants to talk to my mum. But whatever.

ALSO trans people: I'm not sure what I should do in regards to coming out at uni? I've come out to all my friends on Facebook and they've been very good about it (except one asshole who said, quote 'lol you will always be a girl to me' and 'think of it this way, I will always call you Iris' which was _lovely_) and are using male pronouns and such, but since I came out I've added university people and I don't feel like doing a big coming-out thing again. Should I just do it once I get on hormones? They already call me Ivo because that's how I introduced myself but they use female pronouns :| I don't pass very well because although I think I have a fairly masculine face, my voice is anti-stealth and I have ridiculous hips. I've started doing exercise to lose weight in the hopes that it'll streamline my body but obviously that's not done in a day. Bleh. What did you guys do?

Saith: that's terrible :/ I'm sorry that happened, and that people are reacting badly... not sure what I can suggest, it's just a shitty situation. I guess you can always use it as an opportunity to look into physically transitioning, if that's what you want to do? Argh.

And Jolty we have a gender appointment on the same day :o I'll be sending you positive vibes. I know how much of a pain it is to come out to the difficult parent, I have no idea how I'm going to tell my dad. Probably just wait until I have the T in my hand and then do it, haha :v

e: 





> I'd suggest, with your mom, that you have her come to therapy sessions because it seems to be a lot easier for them to 'believe' it when told the whole thing from a therapist. (Apparently doctors know you better than you know yourself, as far as parents are concerned. :|) My mom did like, a heel-face-turn with her beliefs surrounding this after my therapist told her she basically has to for my sanity.


My mum explicitly told me she'd only encourage me after hearing from a therapist (siiiigh) so yeah, getting a medical professional to vouch for you should help.


----------



## Jolty

Vladimir Putin's LJ said:


> ALSO trans people: I'm not sure what I should do in regards to coming out at uni? I've come out to all my friends on Facebook and they've been very good about it (except one asshole who said, quote 'lol you will always be a girl to me' and 'think of it this way, I will always call you Iris' which was _lovely_) and are using male pronouns and such, but since I came out I've added university people and I don't feel like doing a big coming-out thing again. Should I just do it once I get on hormones? They already call me Ivo because that's how I introduced myself but they use female pronouns :| I don't pass very well because although I think I have a fairly masculine face, my voice is anti-stealth and I have ridiculous hips. I've started doing exercise to lose weight in the hopes that it'll streamline my body but obviously that's not done in a day. Bleh. What did you guys do?


i'd do it sooner rather than later, since the getting hormones part is pretty vague cuz we never know when exactly we'll get on them
and if you don't want to do a big thing again, maybe just next time someone uses the wrong pronouns just say something like "it's 'he' actually". when i was at uni i did something similar and most people were like "oh god sorry!" and that was all so...
I don't pass well either. ugh using the phone is a nightmare, last week I had to phone uni accommodation so I could change my payment schedule and when they'd done it for me they were like "ok you can tell Brandon to check his email, we've sent him the new plan" and I was like :| I don't think there's much that can be done though which sucks :( I've tried eating loads more to gain weight and try and make myself look bigger but it's not working.



> And Jolty we have a gender appointment on the same day :o I'll be sending you positive vibes. I know how much of a pain it is to come out to the difficult parent, I have no idea how I'm going to tell my dad. Probably just wait until I have the T in my hand and then do it, haha :v


and i will be sending you good vibes in return!
I'm already out to my mum, I just haven't asked her to use my male name even though it's been my legal name for almost a year.



> My mum explicitly told me she'd only encourage me after hearing from a therapist (siiiigh) so yeah, getting a medical professional to vouch for you should help.


over here, the third appointment out of the initial 3 is for family to come along to so I'll probably ask my mum this time round. only my dad came last time and it definitely made him change his mind about things
i hope my mum will /actually/ come though because last time i heard from my dad that she did want to go and heard from my sister that she didn't blah why does she never say these things to me


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## Minish

Saith said:


> *e2:* I'm hoping that, seeing as this is the QUILTBAG club, you realise that I'm using 'guy' and 'girl' to refer to your identification not your assignment. Put away the knives.


Then why is it only foul for an arbitrary set of people??

aaaargh I had a massive post the forum ate it. Jolty I've only had (mostly) queer friends, so! :c Thooough I do have a pair of friends who've fallen out over one being fairly clueless about how to be decent to a trans* person (I just try to avoid bringing up trans* stuff around that one :c).

I guess I did (sort of) ditch a friend for being really really transphobic? But she was fairly horrendous in several ways, so. Being picky about how decent my friends are leaves me with few, but I try not to feel too bad about that.

Good luck with all your transy things, guys!!


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## Byrus

I've never lost friends over being trans, mostly because I purposely lost contact with my old friends who knew me before I transitioned. Not pleasant, but I really didn't want to take the risk of coming out to them, especially in such a difficult phase of my life. The majority of the close friends I have now are from my trans support group, and I get on well with the people I work and study with, but I have no intentions of telling them.

My family were difficult at first, but they gradually got used to it, and it's not even a thing now really. So I think it helps to give your family time to adjust, and just keep reinforcing that you're completely genuine about your transition. And yeah, I agree that having them come to your therapy sessions is a good idea.

I've been debating with myself over whether I should try and meet up with my old friends or not, but I've been on hormones for three years now, so I just think it's going to be too awkward and risky. I just can't imagine how they'd react. 



			
				Vladimir Putin's LJ said:
			
		

> ALSO trans people: I'm not sure what I should do in regards to coming out at uni? I've come out to all my friends on Facebook and they've been very good about it (except one asshole who said, quote 'lol you will always be a girl to me' and 'think of it this way, I will always call you Iris' which was lovely) and are using male pronouns and such, but since I came out I've added university people and I don't feel like doing a big coming-out thing again. Should I just do it once I get on hormones? They already call me Ivo because that's how I introduced myself but they use female pronouns :| I don't pass very well because although I think I have a fairly masculine face, my voice is anti-stealth and I have ridiculous hips. I've started doing exercise to lose weight in the hopes that it'll streamline my body but obviously that's not done in a day. Bleh. What did you guys do?


 That sounds tricky. Maybe you could try testing the waters a little and see what their opinions on LGBT people are?

I didn't come out to anybody at my secondary school or training course. I moved from my old secondary school and then was introduced in my new secondary school  as male, which worked out well. Same for my course and job placement. I know it's a lot of hassle, but if you do get the opportunity to move to a new uni, I'd really recommend having a go at introducing yourself and presenting as male. A fresh start really does help a lot. 

Also! Ask about hormone blockers. I don't think they're too difficult to get, and they help ease the dysphoria while you're waiting for T.



			
				jolty said:
			
		

> I've tried eating loads more to gain weight and try and make myself look bigger but it's not working.


 I'm by no means an expert on these things, but I don't think trying to gain weight by eating more is a good idea. You generally gain more mass in areas you definitely don't want it, like your hips and breasts. One of my friends was overweight, and he had a lot of trouble getting a binder to fit his chest. Working out and gaining muscle mass is usually a good idea to try and make your body less feminine. Muscular female bodied people generally have very little breasts, and a masculine frame. But everyone's body is different, so yeah.

EDIT- God, I always feel really nervous after writing these kind of posts. I'm generally pretty terrible when it comes to talking about personal things like this


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## Saith

Vladimir Putin's LJ said:


> Saith: that's terrible :/ I'm sorry that happened, and that people are reacting badly... not sure what I can suggest, it's just a shitty situation. I guess you can always use it as an opportunity to look into physically transitioning, if that's what you want to do? Argh.


Eh, the people who took it badly just needed an excuse to hate me. You know, because I'm such a loveable fella that until now, nobody had any 'reason' not to like me.
The thing that pisses me off most though is that my cousin was one of the few people I trusted with the information, and he acted like it was fine - which meant he was silently hating me for it, or specifically compartmented it away in his mind so that he could use it as a fucking weapon against me. Not to mention that he and I had a falling out over a month ago. He can really hold a grudge.

(Also y'all should totally look out for a massive anger-post in the coughing cupboard soon because my conscience has recently come back to life and suddenly I'm concerned about him)



			
				Cirrus said:
			
		

> Then why is it only foul for an arbitrary set of people??


It's... Not? It's just a personal preference, chill out. We all have an idea of perfect physical form in our mind - I just have one for male-bodied-people and one for female-bodied-people. Or... Male-identified-people and female-identified-people? I think I might be getting mixed up. :/


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## Automata heart

Saith said:


> Eh, the people who took it badly just needed an excuse to hate me. You know, because I'm such a loveable fella that until now, nobody had any 'reason' not to like me.
> The thing that pisses me off most though is that my cousin was one of the few people I trusted with the information, and he acted like it was fine - which meant he was silently hating me for it, or specifically compartmented it away in his mind so that he could use it as a fucking weapon against me. Not to mention that he and I had a falling out over a month ago. He can really hold a grudge.
> 
> (Also y'all should totally look out for a massive anger-post in the coughing cupboard soon because my conscience has recently come back to life and suddenly I'm concerned about him)
> 
> 
> It's... Not? It's just a personal preference, chill out. We all have an idea of perfect physical form in our mind - I just have one for male-bodied-people and one for female-bodied-people. Or... Male-identified-people and female-identified-people? I think I might be getting mixed up. :/


well sweetie, their dicks. no one who is meant to stay in your life would care about something like this. your cousin sounds like he needs a talking to about keeping secrets. 


on a different note, i have a TINY crush on a girl who i cosplay with. >__< i have a boyfriend (who i really really care about) and she has a girlfriend. but yeah. tiny little crush.


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## Saith

Automata heart said:


> on a different note, i have a TINY crush on a girl who i cosplay with. >__< i have a boyfriend (who i really really care about) and she has a girlfriend. but yeah. tiny little crush.


Are you sure it's a crush crush, and not just a girl crush? (a girl crush is kinda like a man-crush but girlier)
The reason I ask is that if you're in a relationship that actually matters to you, then there's a chance you might just be mixing up admiration for someone else and attraction for her.
Either way don't sweat, it's just a crush.


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## Flazeah

Have you lot heard about this? St. Petersburg conservatives are trying to censor everything they think is gay in the city. It's not completely clear, but I think it extends to everything they consider queer.

 Oh and pubic hair is fine. Can make things a bit less slippery when I do stuff to my boyfriend's penis, but eh, he tends to trim it.


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## Michi

Lorem Ipsum said:


> Hello QUILTBAG, very real question here for everyone. *Pubic hair* or *no pubic hair* - which do you prefer on your sexual partner?


Can people who have never had a partner say what they would like? Because if so - moderate amount or more, but not crazy extreme.

I can't believe my first post back on TCoD is this... :P


In relation to my things inherently QUILTBAG in nature, I'm basically out to all my closer friends, about 20 people I think. :D I think I could come out completely as far as peers, since at my school there's no real problem with homosexual or bisexual people - that's probably all a combination of the large amount of people who are implicitly bi-curious or bisexual, the progressingly wider minds of the younger people here and around the nation, and our health teacher / volleyball coach being lesbian. I mean sure there's the couple of asshats who'll call you the "f word" or something for arbitrary things, but there would be no danger of _actual intolerance. Especially not from (most of) the higher ups on the social scale; I've been making giant leaps in expanding my social circle, and almost everyone I know actually likes me, as opposed to thinking I'm weird or such as I had assumed they did. There is that one bitch who felt the need to loudly yell "FIVE" in Civics, which stood for "strongly agree" on a political views test, for two anti-QUILTBAG statements, but she doesn't matter. But I suppose I'll always be paranoid to some extent over the possibility of someone reacting violently, even with how I try to underplay it all and have a "yeah I'm gay, that's just how it is, it's not important" sort of attitude. Probably because of my major social anxiety and such.

Something I don't know how to handle is the family hurdle. I think my mom knows since she found *things* on my computer last year while I was at school and I came home to her crying and asking if she did something wrong and why I had it on my computer and if I was curious and such (I just sat and straight-face denied everything except the curious part). :x But since that day she never mentioned it at all, or even acted as if I weren't straight - I think the "just curious" act worked. There was one time where all the emotional pressures of everything in my life at that time caused me to have a breakdown and start crying, and four of her probably 50 questions to find out what was wrong involved gender or sexuity, but in that case I just kept answering her with "I don't know" besides the gender issues which I simply responded "no" to.

I had a long conversation with her on political views, recently, which covered about everything in the book for politics, including the QUILTBAG community. She is surprisingly open minded and thinks that QUILTBAG people are equal in every way to others. I think she would either say "oh, that's nice, if you ever need to talk I'm here" or "I already knew" if I told her I was gay, and wouldn't make a deal about it. I think my grandmother would take it rather well, too, and my dad has made tons of comments suggesting he already knows so I know be and his girlfriend would be 100% okay with it. Heck, his entire side of my family should be okay with it, since his aunt has had a girlfriend since before I even have any memories of her.

But, and this is really what I came here for, I have no idea how my mother's boyfriend would react - from how he acts normally I think it might be alright, but I have no real clues either way - and I'm a bit worried about how my grandfather would react. Would anyone here have any idea how to proceed, or should I just wait and just drop the bomb on everyone one day after I leave for college in a few years? I think that the latter would work out in the long run, perhaps even right away, but I really am stuck right now.

Sorry for the long post, but this is really the only place for me to dump all these things and have people who actually care a little and could help read it all. Any advice would be appreciated. :) I would try to give anyone else who needs help some advice as well, but as you can see there are some things I am not equipped to handle._


----------



## Dannichu

Little Monster said:


> almost everyone I know actually likes me, as opposed to thinking I'm weird or such as I had assumed they did.


You make this sound like the two things can't happen at once :p I had a similar experience at school - I was one of the kids who probably should have gotten picked on, but aside from the very meanest kids who nobody liked much anyway, most people found my weirdness (love of Pokemon, lack of fashion sense, disinterest in boys, joy at _everything_) endearing.

But, sigh, I'm a big loser who hasn't told my family and isn't sure how to, either. My grandparents are all long dead, and I don't see my (small) extended family much at all. I've got two uncles who I haven't seen in 10 and 6 years respectively, an aunt who I really like, but she's a bit Daily Mail-reading and I have no idea what she'd think, and an aunt and uncle on my father's side who are cool. The uncle once mentioned 'lesbian' in a conversation listing 'cool things Danielle is', including 'feminist, Marxist, vegetarian'. A list I am reasonably sure was relayed to him from my dad, who I remember telling me it was okay if I came home and told him I was gay when I was young enough to only barely know what 'gay' was. My sister knows - she was delighted when I told her I had a girlfriend (and who said girlfriend was), and I think my mother knows and I'm sure she'd be fine with it, but for some reason she's the person I'm most nervous about :/

I really should tell my parents, though. I'm 22 years old, have known I'm gay since I was about 13, I'm with someone I love more than anything (who has told her parents about me), I adore my parents and they've always been there for me ...and it's just insulting to everyone concerned if I don't pull myself together and tell them.

I don't know if my long, whingey rant is of any help to you at all, but there it is. I can't think of any useful advice or anything, except that how much you want to come out is something to think about. I've not told my family before in large part because I didn't see why I should - people don't come out as straight, so why should I? Especially since I was never really seeing anyone while living at home, it was never a big deal and I never felt like I was lying to anyone. But now it does and, dammit, soon I'll do something about it.

Best of luck to you :)


----------



## Minish

Little Monster said:


> I came home to her crying and asking if she did something wrong and why I had it on my computer and if I was curious and such (I just sat and straight-face denied everything except the curious part). :x But since that day she never mentioned it at all, or even acted as if I weren't straight - I think the "just curious" act worked.


I can really relate. I'm sorry. :c Well, my situation was a bit different, and it was a few years ago, but I remember one of the first things I did upon beginning to realise I wasn't straight was join a 'I support LGBT'-type group on Facebook, and _instantly_ my mum ran into my room and started yelling and crying and it was so weird and horrible. I think I actually was like "yes please go away go away" to most of her questions, but just like you, she pretty much never mentioned anything about it ever again.

And, like you, she's surprisingly open-minded about most things?? I think even around that time then she was okay about people being queer, just also in the "well it's kinda weird isn't it" camp. I think that since your incident was quite a while ago, there's a chance she's been thinking it over even without saying anything or it being obvious. Really, I thought for years that she just blocked it out or something, but I realised a lot later that while she was still not great about it, her mindset had clearly changed.

Does anyone really do the 'dropping the bomb' thing? I would recommend just a quiet conversation. Definitely make it known that you've been a little worried about things and everyone's opinion. What I did, since my family just have some weird gossip system, is tell the person who I thought would be most okay with things (my mum) and just hung back. :P I never heard anything from anyone, but just assumed that my dad and uncle-who-I-actually-see (who are both fairly conservative) found out. They've never said anything, and I found that best.

Maybe you could be more explicit and ask her to let her boyfriend and your grandfather and things know? _If_ they did have a bad reaction, they'd probably just keep it to themselves that way too, right? It depends what you're most worried about - their direct reaction, or it just being a secret any longer. If you don't mind so much about the whole educating them on things part, I'd suggest that. Good luck!!

Dannichu, stop being so cute. <3 You can do it!


----------



## Flora

Dannichu said:


> You make this sound like the two things can't happen at once :p I had a similar experience at school - I was one of the kids who probably should have gotten picked on, but aside from the very meanest kids who nobody liked much anyway, most people found my weirdness (love of Pokemon, lack of fashion sense, disinterest in boys, joy at _everything_) endearing.


Same here; actually, a lot of kids on my retreat (and even those who weren't and wrote letters to everyone!) said that they loved how quirky I was.

Onto semi-QUILTBAG stuffs: I'm not gonna just be like "HEY EVERYBODY I LIKE GUYS _AND_ GIRLS" but if anyone _asks_ I'll be like "yeah, I'm bi." That probably won't happen soon because everybody just assumes I'm straight as an arrow (hahahaha that shouldn't be as funny as it is), but maybe.

ALSO MY FRIEND  (and my sisters, but that's an entirely different story) KEEPS SERENADING ME AND WRITING/SAYING SEMI-AWKWARD THINGS THAT HONESTLY SOUND AS IF SHE LIKES ME OR SOMETHING AND I'M TOO AWKWARD TO TALK ABOUT IT. (my older sister finds this _incredibly_ amusing for some reason; some of the serenading was going on while she was driving us to play practice and older sis just says "Rachel, your reaction is just great.")

I'm not just gonna go out and be like "HEY DO YOU LIKE ME OR SOMETHING" because I'm awkward enough as is xD

(semi-relatedly; my _other_ friend's going through a "I get girl crushes but I don't want to sleep with them or anything I'm confused" thing, and as such I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one in my group who's _somewhat_ on the QUILTBAG spectrum wooo)


----------



## Minish

Flora said:


> Same here; actually, a lot of kids on my retreat (and even those who weren't and wrote letters to everyone!) said that they loved how quirky I was.


Sometimes I realise where I went to was _probably_ actually an abnormally horrible kind of school. :(

EDIT: that said, I guess I have to always mention that the few friends I ever made were all queer and geeky (including one who also now identifies as non-binary), so. I guess it was oddly balanced? :D


----------



## shy ♡

9_9 story??

If anyone knows what shabbat entails, we sort of have dinner and lunch with neighbors, either at their house or ours. So we just had dinner at our neighbors and their 18-or-so-year-old son had friends over. My brother and I got into a huge argument because we're both the sort of people who don't care who we're talking in front of we just say what we think so we were very very loud and the whole table sort of went ... and stared at us... and it was about _racism_... and then my brother was like 'I'd tell homophobic jokes in front of gay people!!' and I was like gsdfgdf I'M NOT STRAIGHT AND I CARE!!! so. Conversation and its ridiculousness aside, that was apparently the first time my family heard me say I'm not straight? (And my neighbors and their friends too.)

So that led to, on the way home, my mom going on about me saying things and then leaving them dangling, my brother saying 'wait, I thought it was determined that Shai is asexual??' and then 'wait, if you were attracted to _guys_ that would mean you're _gay_ right...? ... Are you gay?' And my dad's just like, w/e w/e idc. 

Mostly I don't say anything (or answer with like 'are _you_ gay?') because I don't think it's relevant... The only reason I said I wasn't straight was because it was relevant to the conversation at hand. I mean I have rainbows all over my car, and I wear a rainbow wristband, so I'm clearly not straight, right. But uh... I feel like going over the whole conversation of 'no I'm not gay no I'm not bi no I'm not ace etc. etc.' would just be a pain in the ass when it really isn't important to anything. Right? :v Ehh... I don't need help with it, and it wouldn't change my relationship with them? So.


----------



## Phantom

I had an... interesting conversation with my mother on Tuesday. We were actually in the middle of a funeral procession.

Moar story?

My mom has always been pissed that I'm atheist, even though she's a rather terrible believer herself. She always brings up that she said it was the worst thing she ever did to send me to Catholic school, and that it made me atheist. I have to agree, but I had to explain to her the other reasons for atheism, the ass hole of a priest we had, the sexist nature of the church, the inconsistency of the Bible, the treatment of gays in the church...

Then she flipped a lid.

Apparently I'm only "bi" (she refuses to accept further, nor to accept the fact that I have a minor preference to women over men. I have no idea why I do, just weird like that.) because of the people I hung out with in high school. Apparently it was the cool thing to do and I did it to "fit in", just like, get this, my _atheism._

I started laughing so hard when she said I was only atheist cause it was cool and I was just acting it. So fucking funny! I mean when I say I'm atheist, I am a strong atheist and I will start rants and jump in any religious argument I find because I CAN DAMMIT (:P) 

Then I got upset. I told her that my atheism, true, has a part with how religion treats the lgbt community. But I told her that I miss Church. She shut up and listened, and it's true. I miss the music, the singing, the feeling that you're in something bigger, the safety of knowing, of feeling that you're safe. When we were in that church for the funeral I cried, not for the departed cause I barely knew them, but for the fact that I missed this, I might not believe it anymore. But the community. I remembered my church and how much I meant to them since I was the only altar server. How it felt when I helped others for church related programs and such. I explained to her that I lost a lot when I stopped believing.

Then she asked why then don't I believe? Save what I lost? I explained that if I were to act like I believed, go through the motions but not have the faith behind it, it would actually be an insult, sacrilegious, and not like I cared, but there felt like there would be something inherently wrong with that. 

She said ok. 

Then she started actually asking questions. Like, not being mean, but really asking questions and being _curious_. It as such a step forward. Then she started asking me about lgbt stuff, purely curious. It was such a step forward! Then she started talking to me about other stuff, like how I really want to be a teacher. She said I should try for it, when before when I said it when I graduated high school she was like "GRR YOU'LL NEVER MAKE MONEY IN THAT JOB HURR HURR". 

That ounce of respect I had for the church in that I didn't want to be sacrilegious, it got to her. I don't know why. 

It's a good thing though.


----------



## Saith

I haven't been pissed off at straight people as a whole before, but maaaaaan.
So I've recently had to move to Bournemouth, and I have no friends. Luckily, all my sister's friends are my age, so it's not like I have nobody.
But today's the first time I've gone clubbing here, and, for some reason, we went to a gay club.
It's... Pretty fucking weird. It's, like, when I go to 'gay' places, I feel sort of 'free'... Like, nobody'll judge me if I act like myself, you know?
Of course, the people I was going with all went in there ~ironically~. Yeah.
So  I mean, this is my first club since New Years, and my first gay club in years.
It was _hell_. I love gay-clubs - they're so much more fun than regular clubs... That is, when you're with accepting people. When you're with bigots, it's absolutely shit. You have this amazing atmosphere, amazing people... IT's freedom, you know? Except you can't partake in it, and it's fucking AAAAARRRRGGGGGHHHH
'Course when I found out they served Jager, I was prepared to just tell everyone to fuck off and have fun. Which is when the person I'd promised a taxi-ride to decided she was tired.
Fuck sake!

Man, I really wish I'd taken y'all up on your offer when I was still in Cardiff. :'/


----------



## Jason-Kun

Lorem Ipsum said:


> Hello QUILTBAG, very real question here for everyone. *Pubic hair* or *no pubic hair* - which do you prefer on your sexual partner?


I'll take it one step further and say I'd rather they have no body hair at all. 

Anways, can I join? I know I don't fit any of the letters in QUILTBAG, but I'd still like to join.


----------



## OrngSumb

Hey everybody. Long time no post. Been super busy. I know this may be a stretch but have any of you heard/attended MBLGTACC? by any chance?


----------



## ultraviolet

Lorem Ipsum said:


> Hello QUILTBAG, very real question here for everyone. *Pubic hair* or *no pubic hair* - which do you prefer on your sexual partner?


I don't really mind! I guess I kind of prefer with hair just because removing your pubic hair seems to be an unavoidably uncomfortable or painful process. :/ shaving is horrible, waxing really fucking hurts. I mean props to people who are willing to go through that or don't mind it or prefer no hair, but to me it seems not... worth the effort, I guess? I dunno.


----------



## Minish

Yeah, getting rid of pubic hair is really different to anywhere else. :V Even shaving there hurts a lot, takes ages, doesn't work well, and can be reeeally not good for you. idk even if I was randomly super-against pubic hair I don't see why a stubbly crotch would be much more attractive ...

Your stories are all pretty sad!! :c I don't really have any advice for anyone, but I assume everyone is cool with using this place as mostly a place to vent companionably.

Um! I'm going to a trans* workshop tomorrow?? I think it'll be like, mostly educating about trans* issues, and I use the asterisk since mostly here that definitely includes non-binary things. It should be fun and interesting, yay!


----------



## Harlequin

Saith, if you're in Cardiff again and want to meet up with a group of LGBT+ friendly people then I strongly recommend Cardiff University's LGBT+ Association. It's one of the biggest and most active LGBT societies in the country and it's really inclusive and welcoming. My boyfriend is the gay welfare officer and he's fantastic at what he does (and I'm not just being biased here because we're together, he's actually very good at the job), and our LGBT+ elected officer in the Student Union is one of the nicest and most intelligent women I've ever met. Our trans welfare officer is absolutely wonderful, too. 

We take a lot of non-Cardiff University students (so that's Glamorgan or UWIC or Atrium and some people who aren't students at all, or who are friends/significant others of Cardiff students) so you'd definitely be able to come along to something and it wouldn't be a problem. Like I said, we have a fantastic society and a brilliant union, so you'd be welcomed here. It's just something to consider, and this applies to anyone in the Cardiff area. Kinova's come along to something before (and it was a bit of a flop because of the weather, but that's Wales for you), and we have other UWIC/Glamorgan/Atrium students around too (and people here on industrial placement years etc).

On a slightly related note the society just went to student pride in Brighton. I went along because someone dropped out of it at the very last minute and it was a really fun weekend, although it was basically just one massive weekend of touring some of Brighton's gay venues. Not much political or entertaining happened apart from one thing at the Corn Exchange (and it was boring), but I had a nice time! Brighton's a really nice place and its gay scene is really fun. I didn't see a lot of it because I skipped most of the pub crawl to stay at the hostel for a bit with my boyfriend but it's really nice. Interesting place to be gay! 

Also, since I came out to her my mother has been acting very weird. She's said some silly things and it's been awkward and stuff, but I think she's got over that now, which is really really good. Yay!

(I figured it would be good to share a nice, happy story! Those exist too! It gets better etc etc etc.)

edit: re: pubic hair again: I think removing it completely is kind of weird. Like, do it if you want and that's cool, but I don't personally like it on a guy. I like hairy men and although trimming is essential (hairs get stuck in your teeth otherwise and that's very unpleasant), completely shaved just looks odd to me. A lesbian friend of mine says that she refuses to shave because it's itchy and stubbly and uncomfortable and makes her feel like a child, but that she's perfectly happy to trim purely out of courtesy to her girlfriend, because hair in your teeth is icky.


----------



## Aletheia

So I gots me a kindred spirit (and awesome person overall!) providing moral support/personal experience as I try to figure out what the hell is going on.

Yay.


----------



## Zora of Termina

...Christ, am I the only one who prefers no hair?
Even on myself.
I dunno, shaving is unpleasant? But if I just leave it there it gives me the jibblies and makes me feel really dirty.
Fiance says the same about herself. So.

We finally got her parents to be semi-okay with me living there for a while! It... only took a therapist yelling at her mother. This has been a pretty big issue for us for a while, apparently they think I'm some kind of con artist or something? I dunno.
HOWEVER.
I need references (job interview style) and no one I know irl actually... knows I'm... engaged.
Sigh.


----------



## Zero Moment

Zora of Termina said:


> ...Christ, am I the only one who prefers no hair?
> Even on myself.


I am 100% in agreement with you
I just don't like hairy people, and hair ANYWHERE (except some on the arms and legs, a small amount there is 0k) is majorly squicky for me. :P


----------



## Aletheia

Legendaryseeker99 said:


> I am 100% in agreement with you
> I just don't like hairy people, and hair ANYWHERE (except some on the arms and legs, a small amount there is 0k) is majorly squicky for me. :P


I hate myself for being so hairy ;-;


----------



## octobr

I don't give a crap about hair on other people; it doesn't remotely impact if I find them attractive. I personally enjoy shaving though? I just like how it feels to have no hair down there, as it were.

It also gives me an excuse to take ages-long showers. 

It's the only place I do shave, though. I like my straggly fur.


----------



## Noctowl

I know this is a bit strange now of all times (I'm 19 and have been very sure of my sexuality before) but I am wondering if I am bi or not. I mean, it all started when I admitted to my boyfriend that I found my friend attractive. Apparently that makes me bi or something I dunno. And now I keep trying to wonder if it is attraction or not. The funny thing is, Matt Smith aside, I've never really found anyone physically attractive before. I'm attracted to personalities more than anything, I don't really care what they look like. So this is all a bit confusing for me. Reading about female sex turns me on (that's why I started writing my fanfic after all) and apparently watching porn of it does to, as I found out a few days ago (I'd never watched porn before and my boyfriend put on a threesome on and it was odd and oh no). 

So, I know I am attracted to men, but not really sure if I am attracted to women or not. I don't think it really matters in the end, as I am in a relationship, but I like being sure of my identity and this is puzzling me.

On the subject of pubic hair, I don't really care. I find it odd without, sure, but I'm sure I wouldn't really mind.

I did shave once. That was painful as I never shaved before and I have sensitive skin. My ex stopped having sex with me after that...I wonder why. XD


----------



## ZimD

Pubes are neat. Body hair anywhere else is gross.


----------



## Automata heart

i will like, never, be able to come out to my dads family. also, i hate my cousin. she was talking about a friend of hers who identifies as pans and peoples reactions were disheartening. not really bad, just disheartening. this same cousin was talking about deliberately provoking a friends anxiety (which i suffer from) which made me really scared to tell people. what do?


----------



## Aletheia

QUILTBAG people y u so non-queer lately
here have some Star coming out

Went on a class trip to Berlin which I totally forgot to tell TCoD about. Was sitting around with some people playing Truth or Dare when suddenly

"...alright, of all the people here, which would you first choose to make out with?"
"Hm... well, I'm kind of stuck between her and him."
"Wait, you mean Tom?"
"Yeah, he's cute."

Later on

"...hey, Star, are you gay?"
"Nah, I'm bi."
"So you like girls _and_ boys?"
"Yep."
"Really?"
"Yep."

So that's that over with now time to try to explain my gender to them fuck yeah
also I consider myself an aromantic pansexual at this point
but I didn't feel like explaining pansexuality to them


----------



## Dannichu

Automata heart said:


> i will like, never, be able to come out to my dads family. also, i hate my cousin. she was talking about a friend of hers who identifies as pans and peoples reactions were disheartening. not really bad, just disheartening. this same cousin was talking about deliberately provoking a friends anxiety (which i suffer from) which made me really scared to tell people. what do?


If you genuinely think they'll react badly, it might be best to not come out while you're living with your family, if you feel comfortable doing that. I'm no good with family, but you shouldn't let your cousin being an idiot make you scared of telling anybody - just because certian family members are disheartening doesn't mean, for example, your friends will be. If you think you can find support elsewhere, go for it. 

Also, here's a thing I've been meaning to post for ages. It's an absolutely _excellent_ play that's a dramatisation of the courtcase to overturn the ruling of Prop 8 (banning gay marriage) in California. The cast could not be more excellent - Martin Sheen, Kevin Bacon, George Clooney, George Takei, Jane Lynch, Jamie Lee Curtis, Matthew Morrison, Brad Pitt and more. The whole thing's just under two hours and is the most moving thing I've seen in a long while. You'll cry. 

If you don't have ~2 hours on your hands right now, at the very least, watch this bit, with Chris Colfer playing a witness providing testimony about his homosexuality and experiences at a homosexuality conversion programme.


----------



## ShinyUmbreonX3

I would like to join this club as an Asexual and an ally.

I have no sexual preference nor want for sex with anyone, so, yeah. I only have emotional connections. Woo. 

Is it really "queer" if you have NO preference? Cause I thought "queer" only had to do with _preferences_ as in _actual sexual interest_ other than heterosexual. Do correct me if I'm wrong. I've never thought of it that way. *shrug*


----------



## shy ♡

Well, queer also applies to gender, so that doesn't really makes sense. But you don't have to use the label if you don't want, obviously.


----------



## ShinyUmbreonX3

Ok then. Was just kind of wondering if it was really that much of a blanket term. I probably wouldn't use it anyway... Asexual is more specific, and I prefer to be specific.


----------



## octobr

queer is more like if you don't wanna rattle off all yo shit like it gets to be a pain in the ass if you have to go yes i am trans male panromantic pansexual and polyamorous so you just

queer

it's just if you're not the 'norm' as it were


----------



## Dinru

Also, queer can involve people along the ace spectrum. And I've heard varying opinions as to whether queer includes gender or is sexual orientation only.


----------



## Harlequin

In other queer news...

my boyfriend was just elected LGBT+ Welfare Officer of our Student's Union!!!!!! wooo


----------



## Dannichu

Nice letter :)

You know, I have no idea what the MPs in either of my homes think about gay marriage. They're both Conservative, and I've been doing some research of Anne-Marie Morris, and she's voted for higher tuition fees, Royal Mail privatisation and, charmingly, against 'No detention without charge or trial'. I do quite enjoy the delightfully Devony things she's given speeches about, though: rural broadband, seagulls, rural bus services and Teignmouth's sea wall.

And Canterbury's Julian Brazier seems like a bit of an idiot. I enjoy the two pictures they chose of him, though; it's like some kind of weird before and after.


----------



## Hiikaru

Everyone hi! So there's a video game with a transgender character whose issues are openly discussed and the main character helps and supports her and it's been out for a few _years_ now and no one's ever mentioned this anywhere ever????????? Why. How does this game even exist all of a sudden where did it come from since when has a game company decided to actually care that people exist and have feelings and.

I have no idea how good of a game it is or anything also it's a Japanese Wii game so I have no idea how to try it. :(

Anyway, it's called Captain Rainbow! Apparently there's a mission where Birdo is in jail for using the women's bathroom when she's male-bodied vo.ov So she asks Captain Rainbow (you) to "prove" that she's a girl so she can get out of prison!! And he finds some mysterious object that the game never tells you what is and that "proves" it and they let her go. Also something about Captain Rainbow being her boyfriend??

Help how is this a game why is it a big secret.

I hope the scene is treated well and it sounds like it sort of is?? Maybe?? Where is there more information on this help. Also where is there _any_ information where there isn't a huge crowd of people spitting as much transphobia as they can into the comments. :( (which is why I am not including a link.)


----------



## Dinru

Found it on TV Tropes, which is very very good about trans* issues 99% of the time. (also apparently the object was a vibrator according to the Just Bugs Me? Which how does that prove anything but?)

Although yeah, Birdo's been an openly trans*, if C-list, Nintendo character for a long time, although it took a few years for the character designers to decide whether she was trans or just a crossdresser.


----------



## Byrus

Oh yeah, read about that on some video game site. I wouldn't get too thrilled about it, I'm pretty sure it just treats the subject as a gag. And yeah, the object is a vibrator, and apparently that proves Birdo is a girl because only women use vibrators or some shit. Stupid. 

If you're looking for video games that deal with trans stuff, I hear Persona 4 is good. I haven't played it though, just going by reviews. I'm not interested in games like that myself. I use video games as a form of escapism, so a game that deals with an issue that causes me so much grief would be a nightmare for me. I will stick to hacking shit up as a lizardman in Skyrim.  

I disagree on TV tropes being good on trans issues. A lot of people there just treat trans people as a fetish. Quite a few comments there have made me uncomfortable, and that's just with lurking. (I may be biased, as I seriously hate that site, but I'll not get into that here)

Also Hiikaru, are you ever on a sugar rush when you make your posts? It's just that I can't help but imagine you leaping all over the place and talking really fast every time I read your posts. I don't mean that in a bad way or anything; just an amused observation!


----------



## Tailsy

Persona 4 is pretty tricky - the character in question's romance part of their social link is kind of cringeworthy in the event flags you have to pick in order to get the romance ending, for example. I don't think it's the best instance of trans* identity in media, really, but you can give it a try!


----------



## Jolty

Twilight Sparkle said:


> Persona 4 is pretty tricky - the character in question's romance part of their social link is kind of cringeworthy in the event flags you have to pick in order to get the romance ending, for example. I don't think it's the best instance of trans* identity in media, really, but you can give it a try!


oh god naoto
i have probably never sobbed so hard over a game before as i did with all of naoto's stuff in p4. and that's not really in a good way, some of the stuff kind of hit home for me but as tailsy says, parts of the social link are uggghhhhhh
and technically
she's not trans
so

but other than that persona 4 is a great game and everybody ever should play it because it's amazing


i'm tempted to go wander around tvtropes now to see all the trans related discussions.... i'm addicted to rage or something idk


----------



## Dinru

Byrus said:


> I disagree on TV tropes being good on trans issues. A lot of people there just treat trans people as a fetish. Quite a few comments there have made me uncomfortable, and that's just with lurking. (I may be biased, as I seriously hate that site, but I'll not get into that here)


My apologies. Everything I've run into personally has been pretty good about it.

OH also. I want to be a video game developer (or other kind of programmer but that's my hope) someday so. And i've been working on a game for a few years now that has a trans guy in it named Cain. But it's unreleased so.


----------



## Hiikaru

Dinru said:


> Found it on TV Tropes, which is very very good about trans* issues 99% of the time. (also apparently the object was a vibrator according to the Just Bugs Me? Which how does that prove anything but?)
> 
> Although yeah, Birdo's been an openly trans*, if C-list, Nintendo character for a long time, although it took a few years for the character designers to decide whether she was trans or just a crossdresser.


I always knew Birdo was transgender! I just didn't know there was a game that actually discussed it instead of just a "hahahaha look at this dumb guy who thinks he's a girl LOL" in the manual. vo.ov

Also she's always been transgender! When she first appeared the manual said she was (with a lottttt of transphobia), and they've been trying to cover it up ever since.



Byrus said:


> Oh yeah, read about that on some video game site. I wouldn't get too thrilled about it, I'm pretty sure it just treats the subject as a gag. And yeah, the object is a vibrator, and apparently that proves Birdo is a girl because only women use vibrators or some shit. Stupid.
> 
> If you're looking for video games that deal with trans stuff, I hear Persona 4 is good. I haven't played it though, just going by reviews. I'm not interested in games like that myself. I use video games as a form of escapism, so a game that deals with an issue that causes me so much grief would be a nightmare for me. I will stick to hacking shit up as a lizardman in Skyrim.
> 
> I disagree on TV tropes being good on trans issues. A lot of people there just treat trans people as a fetish. Quite a few comments there have made me uncomfortable, and that's just with lurking. (I may be biased, as I seriously hate that site, but I'll not get into that here)
> 
> Also Hiikaru, are you ever on a sugar rush when you make your posts? It's just that I can't help but imagine you leaping all over the place and talking really fast every time I read your posts. I don't mean that in a bad way or anything; just an amused observation!


It's not stated to be that just some random vibrating object so I'll just pretend it's some totally mysterious thing that's relevant to Yoshis and Birdos somehow. Or maybe a vibrating driver's license! In case you lose it. Then you'll be able to find it again. If it doesn't vibrate into a heater vent...

Maybe it's really better if I don't play it so that I can just imagine that it's treated sensitively.

I like escapism, too! I just want my escapism to have trans* characters in it. :( And if that means I have to get reminded of scary things in video games then I guess I'd deal with that! I'm starting to get really disenchanted with reading and watching things and gaming and whatever else because I can't stop wishing some of the characters weren't just cisgender boys and girls (mostly boys. Or if there are girls they're treated awfully, anyway...). Everyone deals with that in their own way though it's just different!

I disagree, too; I try to avoid TV Tropes even though I like reading about the inner workings (in a sense) of media because I feel like it's a really hostile environment for trans* people! I have to quickly leave whenever I end up there because I run into _something_ that upsets me. I didn't used to have that problem so I'm not sure if I used to somehow mysteriously only read articles that didn't make me feel like that or what.

And no!! I barely even like sugar anyway. I get that a lot, but this is my preference for my speech style! It feels more... sincere? Like my feelings come out the way they actually are instead of covered up by frilly words! I can end up talking really really really formally and dryly sometimes by mistake and I super-dislike it when I do that so I try to avoid it! (not that this _isn't_ my natural speech style, I can just also end up naturally being dry and stuffy and formal) Jumping around is fine though I can jump!!



Dinru said:


> My apologies. Everything I've run into personally has been pretty good about it.
> 
> OH also. I want to be a video game developer (or other kind of programmer but that's my hope) someday so. And i've been working on a game for a few years now that has a trans guy in it named Cain. But it's unreleased so.


What do you mean by working on it!


----------



## Phantom

I am soo pissed right now. Someone just sat and listened to someone argue the point of anti gay marriage because "what's next? Hitching up with your cat?"

Shoot me please. >:/


----------



## Jason-Kun

Twilight Sparkle said:


> Persona 4 is pretty tricky - the character in question's romance part of their social link is kind of cringeworthy in the event flags you have to pick in order to get the romance ending, for example. I don't think it's the best instance of trans* identity in media, really, but you can give it a try!


The character you're talking about isn't even trans* though. The game makes it perfectly clear that she only wanted to become male so that people would respect her in the career she chose and she herself even says that she never really wanted to become male but that what she really wanted was not to be seen as a child.


----------



## Aletheia

I think this is a good time for me to ask- why the asterisk after trans?


----------



## Dinru

Hiikaru said:


> What do you mean by working on it!


As in I've been writing it and coding it and generally doing everything in an indie gamey sort of way. It's been in stasis for a little while and it might be a long time before it's finished.




Star69 said:


> I think this is a good time for me to ask- why the asterisk after trans?


For inclusiveness. The asterisk is kind of a wildcard for all the various gender-related endings that could come after trans- (although it also includes many things that don't begin with that prefix.)


----------



## Tailsy

Jason-Kun said:


> The character you're talking about isn't even trans* though. The game makes it perfectly clear that she only wanted to become male so that people would respect her in the career she chose and she herself even says that she never really wanted to become male but that what she really wanted was not to be seen as a child.


I wouldn't say it's 'perfectly clear' at all, though! you can definitely make an argument for Naoto possibly being trans* or non-binary, at least. besides, a lot of people would interpret her section of the game in that way :U persona 4 isn't exactly great at makin definitive calls on these things. i mean, kanji isn't ever actually outright stated to be gay, although it's not hard to deduce.


----------



## Phantom

So, read in the news that my old high school kicked out the archdiocese. Pretty freaking awesome. I'm so proud of them. I wish I was there to see the students REBEL. 

Here.

Choice quote, "Bliss was one of several students who stood up to argue with the representatives from the archdiocese. One girl held up a sign that said, "I love my moms.""


----------



## Flora

those kids are absolutely awesome for that. just saying

okay so to make this more post more quiltbaggy, i'm going to ramble about how adorable my friend-crush is. kay? kay.

well my two friends came over to skype with a family friend who's going on vacation with us so they could "meet" so to speak (family friend lives in new hampshire) and they were both going to sleep over except platonic-feelings!friend couldn't so then it was just my crush sleeping over

and said crush was kinda upset at her dad and her boyfriend (who were both slightly being idiots, as both tend to do) and so she kinda kept slumping onto our shoulders. which by the way is _really freaking adorable aaaaaah_

(also i guess sorta related; she majorly freaks out over my mental health? i mean on kairos we listened to a girl talk about how she tried to kill herself and after that speech was over my crush came over and hugged me and started crying because if i ever killed myself she'd be _that upset_)


----------



## Glace

It's been nearly half a year since I decided I was bisexual, but I never really did come around to asking if I could join this club.

But here I am!


----------



## Aletheia

So I'm sitting in an IRC, /me-ing with female pronouns, when suddenly-

Guy 1: I didn't know [Star] is a girl.
Guy 2: He's not.
Guy 3: Yup. Someone dug up pictures of him.
Guy 2: Never assume anyone on the internet is female unless they post tits.

Then I thanked them for telling me what I am, noted that sex and gender don't always match (in Dear Princess Celestia format, since these are bronies we're talking about), and left.

My heart's still pounding a little.

Edit: and then I got shit like this. Great.


----------



## Lorem Ipsum

A Christian group is putting adverts on London buses asserting the effectiveness of gay therapy.

Please sign this petition against it?


----------



## Harlequin

Already banned! :D


----------



## Blastoise Fortooate

This Ken Livingstone guy, he's my new friend. :3

so I came out in a roundabout way to my trans*-ish friend and she said she already had guessed, so! Blastoise is not as ninja as he thought


----------



## goldenquagsire

> This Ken Livingstone guy, he's my new friend. :3


Livingstone did jack shit to stop the ads, it was Boris Johnson (the current Tory (right-wing) mayor) who got them banned. All Ken has done is to try to turn the situation into political capital against Boris. At least Brian Paddick (the Lib Dem (left-ish-wing?) mayoral candidate who, incidentally, is also gay) had the decency not to turn this into a shit-flinging contest.*

I find the actual censorship a little problematic** (after all, the Atheist Bus ads went unchallenged even though they're arguably equally as offensive to believers as this is to LGBT people) but I think the sentiment behind it is very admirable. Good to know that Bojo supports LGBT rights, which is better than what many of his Tory colleagues can claim.

*Fun fact: Brian Paddick is actually a pretty cool guy. As well as having been the UK's most senior openly-gay police officer, he also encouraged the police to turn a blind eye to cannabis possession in favour of actually dealing with proper crimes. It's a shame that, as a Lib Dem candidate he probably doesn't have much chance at getting elected. That said, I think a lot of left-leaning people are getting tired of Ken Livingstone. Anyway that's enough sidetracking for one post...

**Just to clarify, I agree that they qualify as hate speech and I think the decision to ban them is probably correct.


----------



## Tailsy

Completely irrelevant but I've been laughing at 'Bojo' for the past five minutes, thanks for that.


----------



## goldenquagsire

Twilight Sparkle said:


> Completely irrelevant but I've been laughing at 'Bojo' for the past five minutes, thanks for that.


It suits him perfectly! He's the archetypal public school lad. It's definitely not hard to imagine him yelling "BANTAAAH" as he downs a pint in front of a crowd of cheering First XV boys.

Also, it's probably better than the alternative. "BJ for mayor!"


----------



## Ether's Bane

Harlequin said:


> Already banned! :D


Well, that was fast. Good to see that it's been done.


----------



## Blastoise Fortooate

goldenquagsire said:


> Livingstone did jack shit to stop the ads.


woops how do i uk politics

The college that I'm looking at the most strongly has an LGBT/Gay-Straight Alliance club! And also a Harry Potter one called Dumbledore's Army (i _have _to go here do you see why). And I just found out they have a _juggling club _I mean no thanks but that is still so great oh man. :O


----------



## Harlequin

vaguely-relevant: I am the president of my university's Harry Potter society :D


----------



## Kinova

So I've been feeling a bit out of the LGBT+ loop lately which is lame but where better to sort that out than my favourite QUILTBAG hideaway tcod heeeeeeeeeey you guys are awesome. (I feel that offline/at uni my environment is kind of super cisgendered/heterosexual and while there is nothing _wrong_ with that it does get kind of lonely? Is that stupid?)

Huzzah Danni I have been meaning to look that "8" thing up for a while, I will definitely watch it when I have a bit of time!

In other news this St. Petersburg thing seems to be getting worse and it's so frustrating to read about aghhhhhh.



Harlequin said:


> vaguely-relevant: I am the president of my university's Harry Potter society :D


Get out of here with your LGBT society and Harry Potter society _gosh_. But really that is cool and congrats re: promotion of sorts on your boyfriend's part. :D


----------



## Harlequin

:D thank you!! also you know you can totally still come to LGBT+ stuff right?? that time you came was kind of faily in that the event that was actually planned sort of failed, but uh --- well, they don't _all_ fail.

(you could also come to pottersoc if you wanted! we meet every tuesday in koko gorrillaz at 7:30 :D)


----------



## MentheLapin

Day of Silence is Friday! I'm doing it for the first time. Kinda nervous. Very nervous. Shitting myself.


----------



## Flora

MentheLapin said:


> Day of Silence is Friday! I'm doing it for the first time. Kinda nervous. Very nervous. Shitting myself.


_this is my prom goddammit

i can't do day of silence at prom

_(wait, my date's gay, maybe I can!)


----------



## hopeandjoy

No Chorus that day, so I can pull it off.

...Awkward if anyone asks _why_ though.


----------



## Momo(th)

hopeandjoy said:


> ...Awkward if anyone asks _why_ though.


Carry a stack of sticky notes and a pen with you.

I've been doing this for a while; can't wait to do this again!

I might even go hardcore and put tape on my mouth


----------



## hopeandjoy

No, it's awkward because I'm not out and I live in the beginnings of the Bible Belt.


----------



## Momo(th)

hopeandjoy said:


> No, it's awkward because I'm not out and I live in the beginnings of the Bible Belt.


D:

Is anyone else you know going to do this?


----------



## hopeandjoy

Doubt it. All my friends did somersaults last year when discussing how if a girl came out it would be so ~awkward~. Bisexual-leaning-towards-women me went, "Shit."

I wore purple last year and no one noticed, but I don't think anyone _knew_ either.

My parents would buy me just being an activist though.

In general, everyone I know is pretty awful about LGBT stuff. At least in my parents' case, it's just ignorance though. (My mom doesn't believe bisexuals exist and once, when my sister had a class of gender, my mother swore up, down, and sideways that sex and gender are the same thing. When I explained that gender is the social constructs of a particular gender, she then countered with "doesn't that make homosexuality are social construct?". Also, either one of my parents or my friends used "shemale" to describe a transwoman. And when I explained it was a slur, completely ignored me.)


----------



## Phantom

Argh, I can't do the Day of Silence because I work that day.

Frack.


----------



## Blastoise Fortooate

Friday is both during my spring break and also two days after I have my wisdom teeth yanked out.

...

Yay?


----------



## Momo(th)

Just did Day of Silence at my school. They give out free candy to the people who sign up!

Also, I didn't do the tape thing:(


----------



## Blastoise Fortooate

Despite having had my wisdom teeth out and being mostly unable to speak, I neglected to do Day of Silence. This was mostly a result of me forgetting, and honestly it's not making much of a statement if the only people I'm not talking to are my brother, parents, and pets. P:

I actually came out over text to my friend the other day and they actually completely ignored it until I pressed the issue. Then they told me that they had known for quite some time! I apparently gleegasmed over one mister Darren Criss in front of my friend and this friend also apparently has supergaydar or something, so. That's two people who know! woot


----------



## Phantom

I couldn't do Day of Silence today, but when I went to the gas station I saw someone with tape over their mouth. I offered them a hug, told them I knew what it meant... then asked directions to where the hell I was going from someone who could actually tell me.


----------



## Zhorken

A couple weeks ago (right before the Birdo conversation) someone made a big post about being mtf and dealing with transphobic parents, but she deleted it pretty fast because it was making her feel worried.

Anyway, she said it would be great if I could ask for advice here while keeping her anonymous.  I'm realizing now that I wish I'd asked more specifically what I should post, since speaking for someone else is hard!  I guess I'll cover the gist of her situation while trying not to be too specific in case someone she doesn't want to be discovered by actually is prowling the forums...?  And then next time she logs on she can give me further input.

So, I can't tell for sure from what she posted, but I gather she lives with both her parents.  If her father ever found out, he'd disown her and there's a good chance he'd get violent, too.  She thought her mother might be more understanding, and eventually blurted out under pressure that she wanted to wear girls' clothes; that went over really badly, though.  I don't think I should say how exactly it went badly without asking first, since it's pretty specific, but anyway taking action herself without thoroughly hiding it from her mom is out of the question, and trying to convince her mom with a psychologist is out too.  She's not sure whether to be somewhat persistent with her mom or just let it go for a while, and they both sound like bad ideas to her.

So... yes.  Advice.  Any advice anyone has would be great.


----------



## Ether's Bane

I didn't do DoS, because if anyone I know (with the exceptions of my brother and mum, who I've come out to [both of them], and my sister, who also supports LGBT rights) found out I even support LGBT's, let alone the fact that I _am_ one myself, I'd be utterly ridiculed left, right, and centre, since I live in one of the most LGBT-unfriendly countries in the world. :(


----------



## Dannichu

Zhorken said:


> So, I can't tell for sure from what she posted, but I gather she lives with both her parents.  If her father ever found out, he'd disown her and there's a good chance he'd get violent, too.  She thought her mother might be more understanding, and eventually blurted out under pressure that she wanted to wear girls' clothes; that went over really badly, though.  I don't think I should say how exactly it went badly without asking first, since it's pretty specific, but anyway taking action herself without thoroughly hiding it from her mom is out of the question, and trying to convince her mom with a psychologist is out too.  She's not sure whether to be somewhat persistent with her mom or just let it go for a while, and they both sound like bad ideas to her.
> 
> So... yes.  Advice.  Any advice anyone has would be great.


I think situations like this are an awful, horrible balance between feeling allowed to be who you are, and feeling safe. I'm not a brave person, so I think I'd probably hide until I wasn't dependant on my parents (well, your dad) anymore and try to get away from home as early as possible. I don't know much about psychologists (or school councellers, for that matter), but they're bound to keep things you say to them confidential, right? So you could talk to one without fear of your dad finding out.

But my main advice would be to be careful and, especially since you're worried about somebody finding you on TCoD, maybe find a forum or community dedicated more entirely to QUILTBAG/Trans* issues and post there? Which isn't to say you shouldn't ask questions here, but you'll probably get a bigger response somewhere with a larger trans* population, and if you sign up with an unrecognisable account, you won't have to post through a third party. I hope that was in some way helpful, absolute best of luck to you!

And Effercon and hopeandjoy, sounds like your situations sort of suck as well ): Gather round me, children, for a big reassuring group hug.


----------



## goldenquagsire

Best of luck to your friend, Zhorken. I'd suggest it might be worth persisting with her mother. Since she now knows, that's one bridge already crossed. This is just a possibility given that we don't know the details of her situation, but it might be that her mother hasn't fully understood what's going on (after all, saying "I want to wear girls' clothes" has a whole host of other connotations besides trans* issues which a parent might misinterpret), or maybe is just taking it a little hard at first. If she's not passed this information to the father, that could mean she's still worth talking to about this. If she ends up as an ally, then all the better. Of course, if the circumstances are different, then my advice probably won't be much help. Also, having said all that, I'd definitely agree that your friend should seek sympathetic outside help as well.

Hopefully something a little more positive: Britfriends might want to go buy a copy of the _Guardian _ today (people outside the UK can also get pretty much all the content online)! Their magazine supplement is doing a special 'Gay Edition' (not the best choice of name I suppose, but...) with some nice LGBT-related articles including an absolutely heartwarming piece on gay couples and surrogacy!


----------



## Byrus

Zhorken, I'm glad you PMed her. I was really upset when I read her post. I sent a PM too, but I'm so shit with these kind of things, urgh. I've been trying to think of something helpful to say, but I'm completely stuck. It's just an awful situation to be in. She said there weren't any LGBT groups in her area, though I would recommend to keep looking. I found a really good trans group that I had no idea existed until my therapist told me. Granted, they're probably tricky to find without help, but I'd definitely stay on the lookout. 

On the subject of DOS, I'm pretty meh on it. Staying silent for a day seems like a bad message to me; LGBT folks need to speak up and be heard.



goldenquagsire said:


> Hopefully something a little more positive: Britfriends might want to go buy a copy of the _Guardian _ today (people outside the UK can also get pretty much all the content online)! Their magazine supplement is doing a special 'Gay Edition' (not the best choice of name I suppose, but...) with some nice LGBT-related articles including an absolutely heartwarming piece on gay couples and surrogacy!


 Oh man, I hate to be a downer, but that "why chasing straight women still thrills me" article was cringe-worthy.


----------



## ultraviolet

Zhorken said:


> A couple weeks ago (right before the Birdo conversation) someone made a big post about being mtf and dealing with transphobic parents, but she deleted it pretty fast because it was making her feel worried.
> 
> Anyway, she said it would be great if I could ask for advice here while keeping her anonymous.  I'm realizing now that I wish I'd asked more specifically what I should post, since speaking for someone else is hard!  I guess I'll cover the gist of her situation while trying not to be too specific in case someone she doesn't want to be discovered by actually is prowling the forums...?  And then next time she logs on she can give me further input.


Unfortunately I can't really give advice, but do tell me if she changes her mind and wants me to undelete the post. Also if she would feel more comfortable posting under a different account, that would also be okay.


----------



## goldenquagsire

> Oh man, I hate to be a downer, but that "why chasing straight women still thrills me" article was cringe-worthy.


Yeah, that was a bit of a disappointing article. It actually started off really interesting, being about a lesbian growing up in Jamaica (I'd have loved a whole article about that, you don't often hear about LGBT people in incredibly homophobic places like the Caribbean, and even less often about lesbians in particular) but then it just goes into full-on creep mode ("so I make friends with straight women, wait until they break up with their boyfriends and then pounce on them when they're most vulnerable"). :(

On the other hand, the interview with Alan Carr was pretty interesting and made me reassess my opinion of the man. I always found him a little annoying, but he seems pretty legit.


----------



## Momo(th)

I found this to be interesting.


----------



## Dannichu

It is. Wouldn't advise anybody to look at the comments unless they want a headache though. 

I agree hugely in prinicple - decreasing ideas about gender sterotypes, especially in kids, is a wonderful idea, but I'm not sure how much I can get my head around "stopping free playtime".


----------



## Byrus

goldenquagsire said:


> Yeah, that was a bit of a disappointing article. It actually started off really interesting, being about a lesbian growing up in Jamaica (I'd have loved a whole article about that, you don't often hear about LGBT people in incredibly homophobic places like the Caribbean, and even less often about lesbians in particular) but then it just goes into full-on creep mode ("so I make friends with straight women, wait until they break up with their boyfriends and then pounce on them when they're most vulnerable"). :(
> 
> On the other hand, the interview with Alan Carr was pretty interesting and made me reassess my opinion of the man. I always found him a little annoying, but he seems pretty legit.


 Urgh, yeah, it is a shame. I would have been interested to see their views, but the one article that focused on a non-white person just happened to be... that. It reminded me horribly of those so-called "nice guys" I hear so much about. 



Dannichu said:


> It is. Wouldn't advise anybody to look at the comments unless they want a headache though.
> 
> I agree hugely in prinicple - decreasing ideas about gender sterotypes, especially in kids, is a wonderful idea, but I'm not sure how much I can get my head around "stopping free playtime".


 Yeah, uh, what's the deal with the stopping free playtime bit? That was pretty weird. How does being allowed to play cement gender stereotypes and whatnot? If the kids are raised gender neutral then they won't be inclined to act out and discriminate based on gender roles. And anyway, they're going to go and out and play after school, so what's the point? 

Kinda ironic that their gender neutral pronoun is identical to specifically female word in English. v_v


----------



## hopeandjoy

Kids need free play time anyway - imagination is an important part of childhood development. But the idea of a gender neutral pronoun is a good idea.


----------



## Flora

so my friend who I liked sophomore year (who insisted bisexuality did not exist) has embraced her bisexuality...pfffft fml

she's actually come out to pretty much everybody now, which is pretty cool

i might end up doing so too if asked or something


----------



## Byrus

I went to London today, and the journey was a COMPLETE FUCKING NIGHTMARE but let's not get into that

I had a consultation with my surgeon, and my chest operation is scheduled for the 10th of July. I am so fucking happy right now hell yes. I've been waiting so long for this. The gallery of the surgeon's other work looks really good (Link is NSFW). I'll be getting a Periareola Incision since my chest is so small. The scarring is very minimal on this one too.


----------



## Aletheia

Star69 said:


> *July 29th
> I've barely even started and I'm already having trouble going on without my internet buddies to talk to.
> 
> I need a hobby. Why do I not have a bike.
> 
> Edit: though what's more important than my not being able to talk to friends is that I have to shut up and stop worrying about something that is very, _very_ important to me.


...except then I yelled at my parents about how, yes, I _am_ trans and now we seem to be on our way to progress? Hopefully?

Whatever the consequences, it just feels amazing to finally get this off my chest.


----------



## Momo(th)

Wow, these past few days have been rough. I just feel so _confused_ about my gender.

Long story short, you might see my preferred pronoun changed.

Alright, I feel much better now. I've come to terms that I identify myself as neither gender. I'm going to keep my preferred pronoun as "He", however, for convenience sake.

EDIT: On a side note, Vice President Joe Biden supports gay marriage!


----------



## Zexion

I`ve thought of this time and time again, but this time I`ll actually follow through. I need this off my chest... I am bisexual. Y`all are the 1st people I`ve said anything to. I want to tell others, but the way they treat bi/homo-sexuals at my school, I`m afraid to.

_This is a relief, as I`ve been holding onto that since 6th grade w/o telling anyone_ I have hinted to my mom, but she must`ve never caught it.


----------



## Dannichu

Star69 said:


> ...except then I yelled at my parents about how, yes, I _am_ trans and now we seem to be on our way to progress? Hopefully?
> Whatever the consequences, it just feels amazing to finally get this off my chest.





Xion said:


> Alright, I feel much better now. I've come to terms that I identify myself as neither gender. I'm going to keep my preferred pronoun as "He", however, for convenience sake.





Control of Dialga said:


> I`ve thought of this time and time again, but this time I`ll actually follow through. I need this off my chest... I am bisexual. Y`all are the 1st people I`ve said anything to. I want to tell others, but the way they treat bi/homo-sexuals at my school, I`m afraid to.
> it.


Big congratulations to all of you :) Well done!



Byrus said:


> I went to London today, and the journey was a COMPLETE FUCKING NIGHTMARE but let's not get into that
> 
> I had a consultation with my surgeon, and my chest operation is scheduled for the 10th of July. I am so fucking happy right now hell yes. I've been waiting so long for this. The gallery of the surgeon's other work looks really good (Link is NSFW). I'll be getting a Periareola Incision since my chest is so small. The scarring is very minimal on this one too.


More congratulations, and that looks really interesting. Best of luck for it when it happens - how are you feeling about it? Are you paying for the op, or can you get it (or, at least, get this surgeon) on the NHS?



> EDIT: On a side note, Vice President Joe Biden supports gay marriage!


That's really cool, but guess what? David Cameron doesn't! As my friend posted on FB: "If only people had looked at how he's saving the economy, creating jobs, strengthening the welfare state, and improving education (instead of focussing on his apocalyptic plans for giving civil marriage to the sodomites) he'd have absolutely trampled Labour in the local elections, it's obvious!"


----------



## Aletheia

So, QUILTBAG, I need some help. See, this Friday I'm going out to the mall to do some shopping, and I figured I could use it as an opportunity to get myself some girl things without my parents finding out.

The problem (other than the fact that I will probably die from paranoia) is that I just don't know what to get ._.

Edit: oh, and thank you kindly, Dannichu!


----------



## goldenquagsire

Dannichu said:


> That's really cool, but guess what? David Cameron doesn't! As my friend posted on FB: "If only people had looked at how he's saving the economy, creating jobs, strengthening the welfare state, and improving education (instead of focussing on his apocalyptic plans for giving civil marriage to the sodomites) he'd have absolutely trampled Labour in the local elections, it's obvious!"


Leopards can't change their spots.


----------



## hopeandjoy

Star69 said:


> So, QUILTBAG, I need some help. See, this Friday I'm going out to the mall to do some shopping, and I figured I could use it as an opportunity to get myself some girl things without my parents finding out.
> 
> The problem (other than the fact that I will probably die from paranoia) is that I just don't know what to get ._.
> 
> Edit: oh, and thank you kindly, Dannichu!


You probably should start small, with women's jeans and tees. Try not to get skinny jeans or fitted tees though.

That's coming from someone who's cisgendered, though. But they seem like things that could blend in a little easier, while still allowing you to wear the clothes you want.


----------



## Zexion

Star69 said:


> So, QUILTBAG, I need some help. See, this Friday I'm going out to the mall to do some shopping, and I figured I could use it as an opportunity to get myself some girl things without my parents finding out.
> 
> The problem (other than the fact that I will probably die from paranoia) is that I just don't know what to get ._.
> 
> Edit: oh, and thank you kindly, Dannichu!





hopeandjoy said:


> You probably should start small, with women's jeans and tees. Try not to get skinny jeans or fitted tees though.
> 
> That's coming from someone who's cisgendered, though. But they seem like things that could blend in a little easier, while still allowing you to wear the clothes you want.


Not a female, but hopeandjoy is right. Always start small and comfortable. You don't want to jumpt too fast or too slow. Find something that is comfortable and try that. If you feel like you can/want to step it up, do so.



_My own update: Told 1 person about the way I am. She is one of my best friends and is a great person. She said that she'd keep it until I was ready to go all the way and tell most of the people I knew. Going to tell #2_


----------



## Koori Renchuu

Hey QUILTBAG, check this out!


----------



## Momo(th)

Koori Renchuu said:


> Hey QUILTBAG, check this out!


Lol I've already seen it, so I'm just going to quote the current top comment!


> To everyone arguing against this video, I'd like to﻿ let you know that you're losing this war. Gay people are accepted more and more each day by young people who don't share their ancestor's prejudices. Religious people are finding kinder, gentler ways to interpret their holy books that don't demonize the other. Hateful acts and words are pushing more and more people away from the church. You can walk with us into a more compassionate future, or you can stay behind. It's your choice.


----------



## Harlequin

hey, guys! The LGBT+ Association here has been running a campaign all year called Out in Sport whose main aim is to get rid of homophobia in our Athletic Union. It's been quite successful this year and is now being rolled out across the UK as part of the NUS LGBT+ national campaigns. This is the video that my university made to raise awareness of issues facing LGBT+ people in sport, and for the teams to say "you're welcome here".

The campaign has been really successful here, too! It was unveiled recently at our AU Ball, which was neat! Most of the teams are missing from the video (there are tons, tons more, and every single AU team or club got involved with the campaign) but the ones that got in are the ones who were really supportive. Please watch! Feel free to share it with anyone you think might like it, too!


----------



## Byrus

Dannichu said:


> More congratulations, and that looks really interesting. Best of luck for it when it happens - how are you feeling about it? Are you paying for the op, or can you get it (or, at least, get this surgeon) on the NHS?


 It's on the NHS. My travel expenses are even paid for as well, which is pretty damn amazing. I had cash put aside just in case though.

I haven't had major surgery before, so I have to admit that I'm a bit nervous. It's definitely gonna be worth it in the end though, and it'll be a big weight off my chest. Literally. =P



Xion said:


> Lol I've already seen it, so I'm just going to quote the current top comment!


A comment on youtube that's actually intelligent and well thought-out? That's not something you see every day!


----------



## Blastoise Fortooate

incoming tragedy


----------



## shy ♡

Byrus said:


> It's on the NHS. My travel expenses are even paid for as well, which is pretty damn amazing. I had cash put aside just in case though.
> 
> I haven't had major surgery before, so I have to admit that I'm a bit nervous. It's definitely gonna be worth it in the end though, and it'll be a big weight off my chest. Literally. =P


Heyyy congrats man!!! Super jealous u_u Buttt I've had major surgery, so I can at least calm you down I think - there's really nothing to worry about! Doctors are all _super lovely people_, you go in they give you like, calming drugs, then the anesthesiologist knocks you out and you wake up and you're _all better_ and it's really actually a great experience, at least for me it was, cause you go in feeling sick and go out feeling better?? And everyone's nice to you. :p And I love nice people.


----------



## Dannichu

Byrus said:


> It's on the NHS. My travel expenses are even paid for as well, which is pretty damn amazing. I had cash put aside just in case though.
> 
> I haven't had major surgery before, so I have to admit that I'm a bit nervous. It's definitely gonna be worth it in the end though, and it'll be a big weight off my chest. Literally. =P


That is so cool. I adore the NHS; I've seen them loads of times (I've broken my leg twice in the past 5 years because I'm a genius) and they've always been efficient and lovely. The only major surgery I've had was when I had a dog bit my face when I was a baby. I had an extremely good plastic surgeon work on it for several hours had 56 stitches and thanks to all that, most people don't even notice the scar.

Anyways, I bet you'll feel so, so good after! Have you told people that you're having it?

And Blastoise's video is very, very sad ): To cheer myself (and maybe you lot) up, I'm reposting this, because it'll make you cry but it's also very, very uplifting.


----------



## Zexion

In lesser news:
Against Me! lead singer Tom Gabel comes out as transgender.
North Carolina passed the gay marriage ban.

Anything I'm missing?


----------



## opaltiger

It's about fucking time.


----------



## Zexion

opaltiger said:


> It's about fucking time.


That's what I forgot!!! :sweatdrop: :sweatdrop:


----------



## EvilCrazyMonkey

HEY ALL YOU PEOPLE
Wow, I really missed this thread. It's been a while.

Anyway, I would just like to tell all of you who came out how much respect I have for you and your bravery. It was tough for me, and I sure as hell know I didn't have it the worst. It feels strange to finally be able to say this, but I'm almost free from my parents. In the fall, I'll be at New York University, one of the most gay colleges ever (they're just /everywhere/ there). I'm beyond excited, and I guess I just wanted to tell everyone that it gets better. Don't give up. You are all awesome.


----------



## Dannichu

EvilCrazyMonkey said:


> HEY ALL YOU PEOPLE
> Wow, I really missed this thread. It's been a while.
> 
> Anyway, I would just like to tell all of you who came out how much respect I have for you and your bravery. It was tough for me, and I sure as hell know I didn't have it the worst. It feels strange to finally be able to say this, but I'm almost free from my parents. In the fall, I'll be at New York University, one of the most gay colleges ever (they're just /everywhere/ there). I'm beyond excited, and I guess I just wanted to tell everyone that it gets better. Don't give up. You are all awesome.


HELLO! :D Oh, it's good to see you back! And I'm so, so pleased everything's going well for you, it's excellent you'll be going to NYU, and I hope everything's okay with your parents.


----------



## Momo(th)

Lol

Those comments though. . .they are infuriating to say the least.


----------



## Blastoise Fortooate

Xion said:


> Lol
> 
> Those comments though. . .they are infuriating to say the least.



"Pssh, we have more important things than basic human rights to worry about, like the economy!"

D:


----------



## Koori Renchuu

LGBT people have a hard time being out and keeping a job in most states, how are their rights in this sphere not an economic issue?


----------



## Minish

ugh I NEED A PLACE TO VENT so.

my friends keep _the creepiest company_ I swear so there are lots of random pictures of me on facebook right. so one of my old school friend's creepy random pals who I have never met just posts like "nice ass hope it's a girl!!!" okay first UM WOW CREEPY this guy also constantly hits on our other friend and everyone just... laughs it off......

like... I don't think my friend actually gets that that's not only creepy but pretty shitty when you're trans*? like. I have tried to explain it and she's just like "yeah I guess so maybe!! but he's nice to me soooooooo!! he doesn't mean any harm! he just teases everyone!" (she also happened to mention that he probably would have tried to trigger me if he knew it would offend me ~~~~what a top guy~~~~ hahaha!!!!)

I mean I guess mostly I am venting about this one friend now but. seriously I have just suddenly realised why she was a-okay with laughing and being nice to people at school after they horribly bullied me, apparently it's because she can't hold a grudge~ and *"as long as people are nice to [her] she has no problem with them"* THERE IS SO MUCH WRONG WITH THAT why have I put up with this for so long


now I feel super-shit about my body I haven't felt dysphoric in so long but nope guess that's ruined!!! ~~~
/flops away.


----------



## shy ♡

Cirrus said:


> ugh I NEED A PLACE TO VENT so.
> 
> my friends keep _the creepiest company_ I swear so there are lots of random pictures of me on facebook right. so one of my old school friend's creepy random pals who I have never met just posts like "nice ass hope it's a girl!!!" okay first UM WOW CREEPY this guy also constantly hits on our other friend and everyone just... laughs it off......
> 
> like... I don't think my friend actually gets that that's not only creepy but pretty shitty when you're trans*? like. I have tried to explain it and she's just like "yeah I guess so maybe!! but he's nice to me soooooooo!! he doesn't mean any harm! he just teases everyone!" (she also happened to mention that he probably would have tried to trigger me if he knew it would offend me ~~~~what a top guy~~~~ hahaha!!!!)
> 
> I mean I guess mostly I am venting about this one friend now but. seriously I have just suddenly realised why she was a-okay with laughing and being nice to people at school after they horribly bullied me, apparently it's because she can't hold a grudge~ and *"as long as people are nice to [her] she has no problem with them"* THERE IS SO MUCH WRONG WITH THAT why have I put up with this for so long
> 
> 
> now I feel super-shit about my body I haven't felt dysphoric in so long but nope guess that's ruined!!! ~~~
> /flops away.


:[ I offer hugs if you want them...

This brings up an issue that I've been wondering about, which I guess for most people might seem silly, but it's really confusing for me. Which is simply, like, why do people do mean things...? Like, that dude you mentioned who would _try to trigger you on purpose_...? What is that function in humanity that just, wants to hurt other people? Pleasure from pain? There has to be some explanation for this, I mean, at our basis we are a pack animal, we are supposed to care for each other, and autistics are somehow made fun of for being less empathetic than others while here I am feeling sick because allistic people go out of their way to be mean to others. I feel like I'm missing something really simple. :\


----------



## Momo(th)

pathos said:


> This brings up an issue that I've been wondering about, which I guess for most people might seem silly, but it's really confusing for me. Which is simply, like, why do people do mean things...? Like, that dude you mentioned who would _try to trigger you on purpose_...? What is that function in humanity that just, wants to hurt other people? Pleasure from pain? There has to be some explanation for this, I mean, at our basis we are a pack animal, we are supposed to care for each other, and autistics are somehow made fun of for being less empathetic than others while here I am feeling sick because allistic people go out of their way to be mean to others. I feel like I'm missing something really simple. :\


I pondered on this many times. The only explanation I can give is that every pack has an alpha, or leader. Let's face it; no one wants to be a nobody, so everyone tries to be an alpha. Packs, however, cannot have more than one leader, or they will split and separate. Seeing as society typically discourages physical fighting (for the most part), humans instead must resort to insults and backstabs to obtain that all-important superior position.

Long story short: People want to be superior, but instead of actually trying to be superior, they instead try to make others inferior.


----------



## opaltiger

Xion said:


> I pondered on this many times. The only explanation I can give is that every pack has an alpha, or leader. Let's face it; no one wants to be a nobody, so everyone tries to be an alpha. Packs, however, cannot have more than one leader, or they will split and separate. Seeing as society typically discourages physical fighting (for the most part), humans instead must resort to insults and backstabs to obtain that all-important superior position.
> 
> Long story short: People want to be superior, but instead of actually trying to be superior, they instead try to make others inferior.


Oh dear lord, can we refrain from engaging in pop evolutionary psychology. Saying "humans are pack animals and that's why we behave the way we do" is at best ludicrously simplistic.


----------



## Blastoise Fortooate

Some people are a bad mix of 'i think hurting others is funny' and 'i don't mind hurting others'. :O


----------



## Zexion

Blastoise Fortooate said:
			
		

> Some people are a bad mix of 'i think hurting others is funny' and 'i don't mind hurting others'. :O


Yeah, that happened today in my 1st period. Some idiots decided to launch a ball across the Health room and knock a boy in the head. This boy was gay and they were whispering mean things about him before they did it. They tried a couple of times before but missed. They waited until the teacher was out and kept trying. When the ball finally hit him, he went off. I wish some people were nicer, but the world is not perfect. There will always be those idiots who want to see others get hurt.


----------



## Dannichu

In my experience, people who're deliberately mean are desperately insecure individuals. I know a few people who feel big by making others feel small, and they have some family issues that aren't their fault, but that doesn't make being a bully anything other than deeply unattractive.

Was procrastinating on AE earlier and noticed two pretty cool things of note:

Firstly, Moffat's confirmed that River Song's bisexual. Which is funny, because I assumed from her very first appearance she was meant to be a Jack Harness-style omnisexual with the line "you're the only one here I don't fancy", but with Moffat's hints that the next Doctor might be a woman and loads of people going "But he married River!" as if that'd be a tremendous obstacle, apparently not everybody else thought so. So that's quite nice. 

Secondly, Tom Gabel of punk rock band Against Me is the first "major rock star [to] come out as transgender". So that's nice, too.


----------



## Minish

Dannichu said:


> Also, Tom Gabel of punk rock band Against Me is the first "major rock star [to] come out as transgender". So that's nice, too.


I'm kind of fed up about hearing positive news about her, after hearing about how she's kind of a rapist. :(! (learn about it! though mostly I've heard about it through a friend's correspondence with the original poster, who's taken that down now) I just really didn't want this to be the spin on the news but ahahahaha as if people listen to rape victims anyway.


In my experience, most people who are deliberately mean are pretty much just mean. Maybe I'm just a little jaded after "I'm sure they have issues too!" being all I heard sometimes. :C

pathos: hugs are appreciated! :C every so often I get stuck into a _but why do they do this?? why do it???????_ about people who are dicks, but it's never gotten me anywhere.


----------



## Byrus

I almost don't want to say anything because of the possible shitstorm, but that post already put a damper on my good mood so meh.

That post on tumblr is literally the only thing making those allegations. And they are made by a person who is known for being transphobic (as well as shaming asexuals). These posts cover most of my thoughts on the issue. The OP making the claims made a post later that admitted that she didn't have all the facts, and it's possible she got mixed up with another story someone posted on LJ about her fiance that beat and raped her (who later in life turned out to be trans). This particular paragraph sheds some light on things:



> And, I should point out: The original post was deleted. The blogger replaced it with a vague posting stating that she was having trouble remembering her facts, and if anyone remembered better than they should come forward. Then that post was deleted. So now there are NO original sources on the post, just a swath of re-blogging through a group of people who should be able to recognize anti-trans rhetoric when they see it. But they don’t because, hey, they’re not Trans*, they’ve never actually had to think about these things unless they want to, and the phrasing of the original post was spot on for “social justice” format so they took it and ran with it.


I'm aware of the issues that rape victims face, as this happened to someone very close to me, but in this instance, I really think we need to look at all the facts. The prevailing notion of transwomen as sexual deviants and potential rapists has been used to shun them for a long time, and the fact that this (frequently inconsistent from what I've seen) rumour came out as soon as she announced she was trans is pretty troubling. Not to mention the OP has a history of transphobia. Her original post is also extremely vague and seems designed to purely appeal to the emotions. 

EDIT- Urgh, I've been scouring tumblr for ages looking for facts and I'm going cross-eyed now. There's also these posts which makes me even more confused about who even made the accusation in the first place, but I think it's worth reading too.


----------



## Minish

This is a PM from the poster:



> "I’m really trying not to engage with this publically because it freaked me out to see so many people reblog it and it being such a huge thing and because I don’t know the survivors personally and feel really bad about bringing this up and fucking up their lives (beyond what it must already feel like to see your rapist in Rolling Stone, but eh, here goes: Laura Gabel raped at least 3 women during the time when Against Me was still with No Idea Records. The women tried to approach No Idea about dropping Against Me!, but they refused. I know that even in their own small town punk scene, these women got ostracized by people who were their friends because Against Me! was so beloved (and not going to lie, when I first heard the rumors back in 2003 I didn’t want to believe them because I loved Against Me so much too). They never made any public statement because they realized they couldn’t win against someone so popular. But they told their friends, and that’s how I heard and that’s how it got to be somewhat common knowledge among anarchist girls around 06/07. I don’t know if she’s raped any one else, but I’m guessing that somebody who rapes three women doesn’t stop at three.
> 
> And tbh, I don’t feel really invested in this beyond the obvious, because if I got emotionally invested in every punk rock hotshot who is also a sexual predator, I’d never get any sleep at night. It just annoyed me last week to see that article posted and to someone I know is a sexual predator spewing that same kind earnest political bullshit she’s been spewing for 10 years or more all to cover the fact that she’s a goddamn rapist. And now I wish I never had, because it has unleashed the kind of rape culture bullshit hypocrisy that I am so sick of seeing on the left: we always support survivors unless we can think of an excuse not to."


I just... I haven't heard about this person being anti-trans or ace-shaming, where did you see about that? I've only known them as being pretty cool, and just. I just totally refuse not to look at things like this seriously, or at least not to have severe reservations. Also they kind of... have a different username to the apologiser you posted? Are there _two_ of these stories going round?

EDIT: okay then I see things like this all over the original poster's tumblr:



> But if we’re talking to people who think that “demisexual” is a thing, then we’re talking to people who clearly have no idea how human sexuality and institutionalized sexism even work.  So I think we should be careful with how we use this somewhat sophisticated, easily misinterpreted feminist framework around people who just don’t have the foundational understanding.





> Demisexuals clearly have an insurmountable problem with this because the underlying theory of their identity is stupid.


???????? wow



> Because I think it’s not quite right, as missvoltarine says, that demisexuals, “specifically creates distance between those who ID as such and those who are condemned widely by society for engaging in casual sex.”





> **I don’t think every single person who identifies as demi/asexual is secretly a big ol’ homo but if someone is really trying to distance themselves from their sexual desires then I think we’re irresponsible to to not point out over and over again that internalized homophobia is one of the most popular reasons why a person would do that.


no no no no no no no no nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnope


----------



## Rainbow Dashie

Argentina gender rights law: A new world standard

yay


----------



## Superbird

pathos said:


> This brings up an issue that I've been wondering about, which I guess for most people might seem silly, but it's really confusing for me. Which is simply, like, why do people do mean things...? Like, that dude you mentioned who would _try to trigger you on purpose_...? What is that function in humanity that just, wants to hurt other people? Pleasure from pain? There has to be some explanation for this, I mean, at our basis we are a pack animal, we are supposed to care for each other, and autistics are somehow made fun of for being less empathetic than others while here I am feeling sick because allistic people go out of their way to be mean to others. I feel like I'm missing something really simple. :\


As far as I can tell, there would be three reasons that I can think of right now, probably a lot more though. That is, 1) feeling superior to someone and showing superiority through violence, 2) It becomes fun for them and they cease caring about other people's feelings about it, and 3) they feel like the person is doing something wrong and feels like it's their job to punish them for that.


----------



## Byrus

Cirrus, thanks for elaborating. I completely understand that this needs to be taken seriously, but I don't think this knee-jerk reaction is the way to go, and people are flying into this thing with pure emotion and little logic. 

It's completely unsourced hearsay from a random transphobe on tumblr, that she only happened to disclose as soon as Gabel came out. I'd also like to note that her original posting used the singer's old name and pronouns, the one you linked to was edited. I completely understand that trans people are capable of rape and it should not be excused because of of their trans status,  but the fact remains that transwomen are often oppressed by being labelled as perverts who only want to go into the women's bathrooms to rape them. Can I ask why you didn't respond to that part of my post? I really think this element needs to be taken into account. Another user on tumblr (tal9000) made an excellent post on the issue if you want to read it.

Apparently the OP mentioned these rumours existed before the person came out and fans of the band denied it and such, but I haven't found any evidence of this, and I've been doing as much research as I can. I'm not familiar with this band or its fanbase, so it's been a chore. If you find anything, then please link me.

And I'm not completely sure on what the context of angrybanette's post was unfortunately, because yes, I've seen multiple rumours flying about. 

I really do not feel like looking through galeofnovember's blog to find some more choice quotes, because she doesn't tag anything properly and her smug tone makes me gag. If the quotes you found weren't enough to change your opinion on her, then I can dig up some more I guess. Judging from other posts on tumblr, she isn't being very consistent with her story either.

I feel really shaky and shitty right now honestly... Apologies if I've made some missteps on this issue, but I just don't feel that randomly spreading rumours like this so casually (from someone who isn't the survivor) is the right way to go.


----------



## Momo(th)

Rainbow Dashie said:


> Argentina gender rights law: A new world standard
> 
> yay


Holy crap.

This is awesome.


----------



## Minish

Byrus said:


> I completely understand that trans people are capable of rape and it should not be excused because of of their trans status,  but the fact remains that transwomen are often oppressed by being labelled as perverts who only want to go into the women's bathrooms to rape them. Can I ask why you didn't respond to that part of my post?


Well, it's just... I know! That's a really serious thing and it's definitely the context that it should all be looked at, but also, if someone _is_ a rapist that's also a pretty big deal. I guess I was pretty trusting because I have several trans* friends who somehow like galesofnovember and are friends with em. Now I don't know what to think, so I'm just going to steer clear of both sides because they both have questionable parts.

As for galesofnovember emself (herself?), yeah, believe me, I'm convinced that e's a pretty smug, gross person now. I don't get why e hasn't been called out by the on-top-of-it part of tumblr's ace community, 'cause e seems pretty well-known, especially now. :/

I don't feel like the "only rumours" argument is useful at _all_, though, because sometimes survivors cannot do what galesofnovember did, they just cannot talk about it, do not want to, don't want to engage in shit from fans or having to explain or dealing with 95% of everyone completely disregarding anything they say. I'm wary of both people who need 'more than rumours' to believe a victim's story, and of people who say this kind of thing about transwomen, and because the posts I saw seemed pretty respectful of her name, pronouns and situation and seemed extremely sincere - and also everything fit the pattern of what I'd imagine many survivors would do/act like in this kind of situation... but yeah, I definitely knew from the beginning this was still something that needed to be considered carefully or from a distance.

I'm really sorry this story has made you feel shaky and bad. :C


----------



## Ether's Bane

Rainbow Dashie said:


> Argentina gender rights law: A new world standard
> 
> yay


YES

SO MUCH WIN


----------



## Momo(th)

Jesus Christ this is amazing.


----------



## Zexion

Tried to tell my mom I was bi-. She told me, "I think you're just going through a phase. Stop listening to those people calling you queer."

She's wrong, I wish I hadn't brought it up, though.


----------



## Aletheia

Control of Dialga said:


> Tried to tell my mom I was bi-. She told me, "I think you're just going through a phase. Stop listening to those people calling you queer."
> 
> She's wrong, I wish I hadn't brought it up, though.


I feel you. :\

I sank into depression last Saturday (right before Mother's Day, whoohoo) after realizing my parents didn't _actually_ accept that I'm trans and that the amount of effort they'd make to treat me like a girl would stay zero.
Because apparently if I was actually trans I'd be able to explain dysphoria better. That's honestly what they told me. That somehow if this disgust with my body were real I would be able to put it into words better and not be ashamed or shy about it.
Great reasoning there.


----------



## Ether's Bane

Control of Dialga said:


> Tried to tell my mom I was bi-. She told me, "I think you're just going through a phase. Stop listening to those people calling you queer."
> 
> She's wrong, I wish I hadn't brought it up, though.


:(

This is why I haven't come out to my dad - I'm 99.99% sure he'll say something to that effect.


----------



## EvilCrazyMonkey

Dannichu said:


> HELLO! :D Oh, it's good to see you back! And I'm so, so pleased everything's going well for you, it's excellent you'll be going to NYU, and I hope everything's okay with your parents.


Thanks! Everything's going well, and I'm much happier than I was a couple years ago. My mom hasn't mentioned anything remotely related to my gayness in forever, so I'm pretty sure she thought it was a phase, but that's okay because I'll be gone soon.



Seraph said:


> Jesus Christ this is amazing.


The original is much better...



Control of Dialga said:


> Tried to tell my mom I was bi-. She told me, "I think you're just going through a phase. Stop listening to those people calling you queer."
> 
> She's wrong, I wish I hadn't brought it up, though.


Yeah, my mom didn't believe me either, so I understand you there. For me, things were unbearably awkward for a couple weeks, but over time I got a lot better. Stick it out, I believe in you!


----------



## Zexion

Star69 said:


> I feel you. :\
> 
> I sank into depression last Saturday (right before Mother's Day, whoohoo) after realizing my parents didn't _actually_ accept that I'm trans and that the amount of effort they'd make to treat me like a girl would stay zero.
> Because apparently if I was actually trans I'd be able to explain dysphoria better. That's honestly what they told me. That somehow if this disgust with my body were real I would be able to put it into words better and not be ashamed or shy about it.
> Great reasoning there.


I'm sorry. *offers internet hug*



Effercon said:


> :(
> 
> This is why I haven't come out to my dad - I'm 99.99% sure he'll say something to that effect.


Yeah, if I'd known that's what she'd have said, I would've not mentioned it.



EvilCrazyMonkey said:


> Yeah, my mom didn't believe me either, so I understand you there. For me, things were unbearably awkward for a couple weeks, but over time I got a lot better. Stick it out, I believe in you!


Alright. I'll fight on with my head held high.


----------



## Momo(th)

Another awesome article.

Those comments, though.



> I want equal rights for my sheep!


Because, y'know, a sheep has the same legal standing as humans.

However, in that conglomerate of hate, there is one awesome comment:



> Why not vote on it? The answer is simple: The majority can usually be relied upon to deny rights o the minority. I'm a working historian, so I'll provide two examples from our nation's history:
> The overwhelming majority of Americans were opposed to the 14th Amendment granting citizenship to African-Americans
> The overwhelming majority of Americans were opposed to the SCOTUS decision in Loving v. VA, which overturned laws against interracial marriage (BTW, many of the arguments against interracial marriage are identical to those offered against gay marriage)


----------



## Flora

Once, one of the girls in my school stated that if gay marriage was legalized, the human race would die out because there'd be no more babies.

...she wasn't one of the more intelligent girls in the school.


----------



## Momo(th)

Flora said:


> Once, one of the girls in my school stated that if gay marriage was legalized, the human race would die out because there'd be no more babies.


Because, we _always_ need more baby's in this world! Overpopulation? Pfff, I don't even know what that is.


----------



## Flora

Seraph said:


> Because, we _always_ need more baby's in this world! Overpopulation? Pfff, I don't even know what that is.


I think she meant that in terms of "if gay marriage is legalized straight marriage will cease to exist and no one will have kids anymore"

you know, completely forgetting _every other nation ever_


----------



## Rainbow Dashie

I'm currently almost done reading Whipping Girl by Julia Serano after many other trans women recommended it to me, and I must say it's an excellent book about gender, femininity, trans feminism and discrimination against transsexual people. Cis people might find its tone too harsh and irritating how brutally honest and radical it is, but that's the way it needs to be to get its points across, and I think it should be a must-read for all feminists and trans women.

I was also rec'd My Husband Betty by Helen Boyd and Gender Trouble by Judith Butler, haven't got around to them yet. Any other books about gender and trans issues that people have read that they think are worth reading?

(decided to also post this here and not just in the What are you reading? thread)

also, she may have not won the competition itself, but I think she was the true winner by winning far more, a privilege for other trans women to compete in future competitions


----------



## Dannichu

Gender Trouble is a pretty excellent book, although a lot of people find Butler incredibly hard to read. She has some absolutely brilliant stuff to say about gender performativity, but you might be better off reading some reactions to her work (this is a nice summary, with some useful but rather academic links at the end) rather than the book itself. I've spent four solid years in academia, have (very nearly) two degrees in sociology, gender is my most absolute favourite subject, and I find Butler almost unreadably difficult.

Whipping Girl sounds really interesting, I shall add it to my to-read list, thank you :)


----------



## Ether's Bane

Rainbow Dashie said:


> also, she may have not won the competition itself, but I think she was the true winner by winning far more, a privilege for other trans women to compete in future competitions


I wholeheartedly agree - she's a real inspiration for other trans women who have dreams of competing in these contests.


----------



## Minish

Serano is definitely the personal anecdote to Butler's hard theory. I feel kind of conflicted about _Whipping Girl_ - I really needed to be reminded that _every_ experience of being trans is what being trans is, and that some people really do feel strongly (and with evidence - it's not just _her_ personal anecdote) that bodies and hormones and body 'sex' _is_ really important and relevant to them. There was some interesting discussion on transmisogyny, too.

Buuut it's definitely very personal. It was fun and interesting and _useful_, like I said, but as a non-binary person some of the things she says and feels struck me a bit dully. I don't know, it's hard to explain, but I'm definitely looking for trans* theory that has a bit wider a scope. It definitely felt a bit out-dated, but it _was_ published, like, '07?


I don't actually have any better suggestions though, I'm still looking myself. At least it's very readable.


----------



## Lady Grimdour

Okay, good news, everyone!

As of the 4th of June, I will now be a fulltime woman! :D Paperwork with the Uni has now been settled, house ready for the summer, now all I need to do is find myself a job, and figure out how in the HELL I'm going to tell my parents about this.


----------



## Music Dragon

Take a look at this petition.


----------



## Dannichu

Urk. Signed the petition. Stuff like that's an awful reminder of how, while things aren't perfect in the UK, they could be a whole ton worse. 



Grimdour the Motivator said:


> Okay, good news, everyone!
> 
> As of the 4th of June, I will now be a fulltime woman! :D Paperwork with the Uni has now been settled, house ready for the summer, now all I need to do is find myself a job, and figure out how in the HELL I'm going to tell my parents about this.


Well done, that's excellent! Best of luck with the job-hunt and parents. You can do it!


----------



## Ether's Bane

Music Dragon said:


> Take a look at this petition.


Signed it.

Could not have come at a worse time for them, too - with the Euros coming up, their country will be in the spotlight of the world; this would make them look really bad just before such a huge event.




Grimdour the Motivator said:


> Okay, good news, everyone!
> 
> As of the 4th of June, I will now be a fulltime woman! :D Paperwork with the Uni has now been settled, house ready for the summer, now all I need to do is find myself a job, and figure out how in the HELL I'm going to tell my parents about this.


Great to hear that! I'll be waiting for that "I finally told my parents!" post.


----------



## Momo(th)

Grimdour the Motivator said:


> Okay, good news, everyone!
> 
> As of the 4th of June, I will now be a fulltime woman! :D Paperwork with the Uni has now been settled, house ready for the summer, now all I need to do is find myself a job, and figure out how in the HELL I'm going to tell my parents about this.


*High fives*


----------



## Byrus

Grimdour the Motivator said:


> Okay, good news, everyone!
> 
> As of the 4th of June, I will now be a fulltime woman! :D Paperwork with the Uni has now been settled, house ready for the summer, now all I need to do is find myself a job, and figure out how in the HELL I'm going to tell my parents about this.


 Wow, congrats! When did you come to terms with being MTF?


----------



## Lady Grimdour

Byrus said:


> Wow, congrats! When did you come to terms with being MTF?


I came to terms with it a few years ago, but never really did anything to fix it, waited until University to do so. Waited a bit too long, but at least I'm here now. :)

And as much as I would love the burden of having to come out to my parents to be gone, I'm deathly afraid of it. My mum is Catholic by morals, and when she found my old stash of clothes, she kept asking if I was gay or something. I vehemently said no, mostly because technically, back then, I wasn't. I am now, in the sense that I'm a lesbian now (damn labels). My background, my Asian culture depicts transpeople as a novelty, or a joke. So I'm not intending on telling them ANYTHING.


----------



## Aletheia

Alright, so I managed to get an appointment with a therapist- he doesn't have a spot open for me in actual therapy yet, but I'll be getting diagnosed in a week from now. Just need to hold out until Tuesday.

Progress!


----------



## Flora

Star69 said:


> Alright, so I managed to get an appointment with a therapist- he doesn't have a spot open for me in actual therapy yet, but I'll be getting diagnosed in a week from now. Just need to hold out until Tuesday.
> 
> Progress!


YAY LEA YAY


----------



## Zexion

so......

this is news! i love you microsoft! :D


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## Momo(th)

Gym Leader Shizui said:


> so......
> 
> this is news! i love you microsoft! :D


_Yay!_


----------



## Adriane

I cringe every time "marriage equality" is used exclusively for monogamous homosexuality :(


----------



## Vladimir Putin's LJ

Hey guys just popping in to remind trans people that starting to see a therapist as early as you can is a great idea. Complaint post becase I try to be stealth online as much as possible but I'm out here so why not. Swearing and self-loathing derived from transsexualism.

I've been seeing my guy since April and we've made absolutely no tangible progress because my high potential diagnosis (basically high IQ and terrible social shortcomings) means I'm 'emotionally immature' so I have to do a bunch of stupid bullshit now. I'm doing a Rorschach test in a couple of weeks and I'm booked for an appointment with a urologist for god knows what reason in fucking late November because she doesn't have any earlier dates.

I'm also stuck in Britain 50% of the year because of university so I have a very limited timeframe and it's slowing things down even more and every day I have to physically force myself to get out of bed because life in this fucking disgusting female body is entirely unbearable. I've started working out in preparation for T (since it increases the risks of cardiovascular diseases and I have a heart condition so I want to strain it as little as possible) and an eventual top surgery (a year after I start hormones, which is looking increasingly less likely to happen this year) which helps but I still only get read correctly about 60% of the time.

I can't even stand to hear myself speak because that high pitched voice rings up my diaphragm and through my skull. I just don't think about the fact that I'll never know what it's like to just be born with a penis and experience all the sensations one gets from it because then I'm just out of commission for the day.

Either way bullshit like this comes up so try to start it as early as you can, even if that first phonecall is hard. I really wish I'd started the process right after coming out to my mother because coming to university without being stealth has been one of the worst experiences of my life.

Only upside is that my mother's being really nice even though she's being terrible on the pronouns and name front. She's very keen on me starting hormone therapy, and has volunteered to drive me to Gent (a place in Belgium which has one of the most famous trans-related doctors and hospitals) so we can bully the doctor until I get my way but I told her that's not how it works. I appreciate the sentiment though.
I'm probably going to turn up the pressure on my therapist though because I hardly see him (he's never fucking in) and I'd like to transition before I die of old age.


----------



## Jolty

Vladimir Putin's LJ said:


> I've been seeing my guy since April and we've made absolutely no tangible progress because my high potential diagnosis (basically high IQ and terrible social shortcomings) means I'm 'emotionally immature' so I have to do a bunch of stupid bullshit now. I'm doing a Rorschach test in a couple of weeks and I'm booked for an appointment with a urologist for god knows what reason in fucking late November because she doesn't have any earlier dates.


i feel you there. i was denied to start HRT over a year ago because of shit like my social anxiety and the fact at that point I'd never had a job. never mind that where i live finding a job is like finding a fart in a jacuzzi. 




> Either way bullshit like this comes up so try to start it as early as you can, even if that first phonecall is hard. I really wish I'd started the process right after coming out to my mother because coming to university without being stealth has been one of the worst experiences of my life.


i'm amazed that you've lasted at uni for as long as you have though :( the first time i went, i was stealth but literally every single person i met thought i was female until i corrected them and ugh i really hope i'm on hormones before i go again.
i second the thing about starting early though. because sometimes there is a fuckload of waiting around involved. i'm waiting for the decision about me starting hormones to be made (it's already been pushed back a month) and i was exactly here a year and a half ago.



> Only upside is that my mother's being really nice even though she's being terrible on the pronouns and name front. She's very keen on me starting hormone therapy, and has volunteered to drive me to Gent (a place in Belgium which has one of the most famous trans-related doctors and hospitals) so we can bully the doctor until I get my way but I told her that's not how it works. I appreciate the sentiment though.
> I'm probably going to turn up the pressure on my therapist though because I hardly see him (he's never fucking in) and I'd like to transition before I die of old age.


nice to know your mum's being good about it though! even with the pronoun/name slip ups :B

eh i hope everything goes well for you man. i really do.


----------



## shy ♡

Vladimir Putin's LJ said:


> I've been seeing my guy since April and we've made absolutely no tangible progress because my high potential diagnosis (basically high IQ and terrible social shortcomings) means I'm 'emotionally immature' so I have to do a bunch of stupid bullshit now. I'm doing a Rorschach test in a couple of weeks and I'm booked for an appointment with a urologist for god knows what reason in fucking late November because she doesn't have any earlier dates.


I _really_ recommend you try and find a different therapist, if you can, because a) that is utter bullshit and b) there _are_ therapists who aren't bullshit. All it takes is a simple understanding that 'this person does not do social things + being prevented from transitioning causes social/general anxiety = stop them from transitioning' is not the best idea.


----------



## Aletheia

Whoops, I accidentally forgot about TCoD for a month and a half.

Anyhow. I managed to get myself set up with a therapist about a month ago, which has helped, I guess. It's certainly nice to have someone to open up to, even if he can't really help me with specific trans issues. He's currently on vacation for the next two weeks but after that we'll resume our sessions.

He also directed me to a therapist/doctor who does in fact specialize in trans individuals and their problems (but who does not take minors on for therapy for whatever reason), and who has his office just a few blocks away from him somehow. Yay, coincidence. I got an appointment with him about halfway through August, which isn't really all that far away.

Mom keeps worrying about (read: trying to pressure me into not transitioning) a kidney disease I suffer from, which could potentially make HRT a bit dangerous? Though I don't think testosterone blockers should really be that much of a problem, right?

Either way, anything my parents say is poison and cannot be taken seriously :B

So yeah. Things are getting better. I even seem to have managed to put a two-month-long suicidal phase behind me.

wait crap did I forget to tell TCoD about my suicidal thoughts too


----------



## Byrus

Hi TCOD. I had my top surgery on Tuesday. =] Everything went fine; I only had to keep the drains in for a day, and stayed overnight in the hospital after the surgery. I stayed an extra day in the hotel to rest, then flew out the next day.

I'm still bandaged up pretty heavily right now, but the pain isn't so bad. It was mostly the travelling on the way back that was the worst. I'm getting the first dressings off in a week, so I'm definitely looking forward to that; these bandages feel like clamps. I'll probably post photos or something after I'm completely healed.


----------



## Lorem Ipsum

Some questions about FtMness that I've been wondering about - what proportion of people decide to go for full bottom surgery? And of those, what proportion go for metoidioplasty and which for phalloplasty? Which is the better option? And what is the future looking like for bottom surgery in terms of medical advancements?


----------



## shy ♡

Lorem Ipsum said:


> Some questions about FtMness that I've been wondering about - what proportion of people decide to go for full bottom surgery? And of those, what proportion go for metoidioplasty and which for phalloplasty? Which is the better option? And what is the future looking like for bottom surgery in terms of medical advancements?


How are we supposed to answer these? I'm pretty sure there haven't been any surveys done. And for the last question, really, how should anyone know how the future looks?


----------



## Lorem Ipsum

You misunderstand - I'm not asking for like, percentages, I'm just asking out of a desire to understand what is generally seen as the better option or what developments are there at the moment, as I'm certain that a lot of people here know infinitely more about what's going on than I do.


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## Jolty

Byrus said:


> Hi TCOD. I had my top surgery on Tuesday. =] Everything went fine; I only had to keep the drains in for a day, and stayed overnight in the hospital after the surgery. I stayed an extra day in the hotel to rest, then flew out the next day.
> 
> I'm still bandaged up pretty heavily right now, but the pain isn't so bad. It was mostly the travelling on the way back that was the worst. I'm getting the first dressings off in a week, so I'm definitely looking forward to that; these bandages feel like clamps. I'll probably post photos or something after I'm completely healed.


congrats!!!

how long are you needing to rest for? and are you able to do things by yourself or do you have to be helped? if you don't mind me asking anyway, i'm just curious about the recovery process and stuff :B

as for lorem's questions
i just hear that "a lot" of people /don't/ have lower surgery, and that meta is a lot less complicated than phallo. however the results of phallo resemble cis genitals more than meta's do. no idea about the amount of people that have either though
i'm still really frickin early into transition (as in still waiting for the goddamn t letter) so someone else would probably know way more than i do.


----------



## ultraviolet

Byrus said:


> Hi TCOD. I had my top surgery on Tuesday. =] Everything went fine; I only had to keep the drains in for a day, and stayed overnight in the hospital after the surgery. I stayed an extra day in the hotel to rest, then flew out the next day.
> 
> I'm still bandaged up pretty heavily right now, but the pain isn't so bad. It was mostly the travelling on the way back that was the worst. I'm getting the first dressings off in a week, so I'm definitely looking forward to that; these bandages feel like clamps. I'll probably post photos or something after I'm completely healed.


wow, that's really great. congrats! hope you recover okay.


----------



## Byrus

Jolty said:


> congrats!!!
> 
> how long are you needing to rest for? and are you able to do things by yourself or do you have to be helped? if you don't mind me asking anyway, i'm just curious about the recovery process and stuff :B


 For the first 4 days or so I was a bit sore and just wanted to take it easy. My mum had to help me out during that time. I was surprised by how quickly I began to feel better though, and after about 6 days I was almost back to normal. I can walk around just fine and make tea and do other light tasks, though I still can't lift anything too heavy. Running is also a bit painful, so I have to keep it down to a light jog.

Getting the main bandages off was a bit nasty. I was still numb, so I basically felt this intense burning sensation. I also thought they were gonna tear my nipples off, haha. It turned out OK though, just tough it out and it's worth it. Christ, I was stinking though; I was embarrassed and apologized to the nurses about it, but they just laughed it off. I couldn't wash or shower properly because of the thickness of my bandages, so I felt really gross.

Now I have to wear a surgical compression vest for about six more weeks as I heal up. 



Lorem Ipsum said:


> Some questions about FtMness that I've been wondering about - what proportion of people decide to go for full bottom surgery? And of those, what proportion go for metoidioplasty and which for phalloplasty? Which is the better option? And what is the future looking like for bottom surgery in terms of medical advancements?


I actually found a survey a while ago, but I lost the link. Still, I think most go for the meto because of the huge price differences. I'd say Phalloplasty is better though, and it's what I'm aiming for in the future. It tends to get a bad rap, but I think the lack of information plays a big part in that. Surgeons are getting much better at making the penis look more realistic; such as sculpting the head and tattooing on other details.

As for as the future goes, this article seems pretty promising.

One of the transmen in my support group is in his forties, and has had top and bottom surgery done, so he's been a great help to the younger transguys in helping them decide what's right for them. I think it pays to get a lot of this information directly from people who have had the actual surgeries. 

I also have a booklet on bottom surgery that my therapist gave me; it's pretty damn helpful and gives every little details on how phalloplasty is preformed. Gotta say, it's a lot better than any information I've found on the net. If any other transguys would find it helpful, I'd be happy to scan it in sometime when my scanner isn't borked.



ultraviolet said:


> wow, that's really great. congrats! hope you recover okay.


 Thanks! :)


----------



## Vladimir Putin's LJ

Congratulations, Byrus, that's great news! Who did you do it with?
I'll probably be getting mine done in Gent with Monstrey's team, they have really top results and I'm pretty surprised they're so unknown tbh. Just mentioning it for guys who might be looking into top surgery in Europe, I was looking at the US for so long but honestly Monstrey's team is roughly as good as most of what you'll find there (check out the photos in these threads)
Anyway hooray.



Jolty said:


> eh i hope everything goes well for you man. i really do.


Thanks, I hope things go well for you too. I'm very sorry to hear about the trouble you've had so-far, the UK seems good with name and gender changes (I have to wait until my hysterectomy before I can alter my Dutch documents, though the Portuguese side is fine as long as I have a diagnosis) but the actual therapy sounds kind of dodgy sometimes, I don't know though, they're very different systems!



pathos said:


> I _really_ recommend you try and find a different therapist, if you can, because a) that is utter bullshit and b) there _are_ therapists who aren't bullshit. All it takes is a simple understanding that 'this person does not do social things + being prevented from transitioning causes social/general anxiety = stop them from transitioning' is not the best idea.


My therapist and I are okay now, really, (we've had A TALK) it's more of a question of getting all the pre-requisites done :v I have to see a bunch of his colleagues before he can prescribe hormones. I've already been to one, and I have to go see a different therapist to get a third opinion, then a physical in November. They've had to make it harder because people were detransitioning and trying to take them to court so they want to make sure you're actually trans.



Lorem Ipsum said:


> Some questions about FtMness that I've been wondering about - what proportion of people decide to go for full bottom surgery? And of those, what proportion go for metoidioplasty and which for phalloplasty? Which is the better option? And what is the future looking like for bottom surgery in terms of medical advancements?


(slight TMI)
Byrus replied to this pretty well. I'm not getting mine done in the near future because I'd like to give it a little time, but I'd rather get a meto (and I can get a phallo done in the future if I change my mind, though that's obviously not the mindset you want to have) since I'd like it to react as naturally as possible and you don't get erections on your own with a phallo, as far as I'm aware? 
For which is better it really depends on your priorities and what would alleviate your dysphoria more. It also depends on what downstairs growth you get while on T, I'm already on the large side naturally so I've got hopes but we'll see.


----------



## Aletheia

I'm curious*- how many trans* girls does TCoD have?

*(and just a tiny bit lonely)


----------



## Byrus

Vladimir Putin's LJ said:


> Congratulations, Byrus, that's great news! Who did you do it with?
> I'll probably be getting mine done in Gent with Monstrey's team, they have really top results and I'm pretty surprised they're so unknown tbh. Just mentioning it for guys who might be looking into top surgery in Europe, I was looking at the US for so long but honestly Monstrey's team is roughly as good as most of what you'll find there (check out the photos in these threads)
> Anyway hooray.


 Miles Berry of Cosmetic surgery Partners. Gotta say, he's a pretty awesome guy that really knows his stuff. Got a lot of good recommendations for him and his team.

I'm really pleased with the results, and I can't wait until I can take this vest up for good. I was worried I might get unlucky with scarring, but there's only a small indentation under my nipple that you can barely see, so it worked out great. 



Aletheia said:


> I'm curious*- how many trans* girls does TCoD have?
> 
> *(and just a tiny bit lonely)


 Grimdour, Rainbow Dashie and Saith I believe. They haven't been active in the thread lately though.


----------



## Zexion

I have good and bad news (good is personal, bad is... well, bad)

*Bad:* This.
*Good:* I told 2 more people I am bi. One is homophobic. The other, as it turns out, is the same way as I am. Both accepted it and I feel a lot happier that I told more people.


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## Aletheia

Hey, QUILTBAG. How's the world been treating you.

In three days I get to meet with a practitioner of dark magic the only specialist for transgender people in this town. He doesn't do any surgery but he does administer hormones (eventually...) and can even help me with things like getting my gender marker changed.

Presumably our first meeting will involve me introducing myself to him and telling him about me and maybe he'll even be kind enough to remind me that transitioning is going to take me 287419 years, hooray.

Still, things are happening. That's something, I suppose.


----------



## octobr

wow so i haven't been around here a lot and i've been putting off posting this for a while but i am real upset already tonight so might as well 

i am pretty next to done with even trying to successfully Do the Trans* Thing because it's so frickin futile and it's such a waste of time

not in general just for me. it's like we're all in a big maze and it might take a while and a lot of twists and turns but eventually it's possible to reach the end except my route was drawn wrong and i can only reach dead ends 

for someone who's in a pretty privileged place -- i mean, like, my school is pretty much fine with lgbt people so far as i can tell, and if i ask people to call me matt they do so no problem -- i have pretty few opportunities. most of it is just stuff that i have no way of changing. we've gotten into a real bind lately financially speaking ... mom just got a link card, which is what they give to people who receive financial help/food stamps in illinois, and a while ago my dad stopped paying maintenance and the lawyer has *yet* to do anything about it (there was going to be a court date yesterday but they cancelled it). i don't have a summer job or anything and school stuff is always expensive, so i've never felt comfortable buying much of anything for myself, especially not things upwards of 30 dollars like binders and packers and the like. and like hell i'd ever be able to pay for hormones -- god i don't even like to think about how much therapy sessions cost, especially seeing as i generally waffle and don't tell her anything of import, hypocritical of me -- and i don't think i'd be able to talk to my mom about this let alone ask outright for something expensive that isn't absolutely necessary. i mean ... i only even own a binder because someone gave it to me as a birthday gift, but it doesn't even do much of anything. just kind of makes me more aware of what's wrong

before the summer started mom kept hinting that she was gonna try and get my name changed this summer, but. it all kinda went down the toilet. and it feels so fucking stupid because clover even went through all this effort to hepl me get it done but the lawyer is kind of an ass and she was so busy trying to say that my mom hadn't given her documents that we'd given her twice over that we couldn't even bring this up. money for living is kind of more important than a name change after all. i'm not even saying that like sarcastically or whatever, it really is. 

and all that aside, too, i'm not exactly the most passable guy. i'm 5'3 with an eleven inch difference between my hips and waist and an hourglass figure. i've been asked twice this year if i was in seventh or eighth grade. i have a high pitched voice that goes higher when i'm excited. the last time i was gendered as male by a stranger was a few years ago. i have friends who accept me and use the right pronouns and everything, and that's fantastic, but it's not the same, i don't know, the whole immersion thing, the whole point of presenting male is just not there. cisgirls talk about being referred to as male more often than has happened to me. and i don't get it what am i doing wrong i have short hair i wear typically male clothes i even literally make a point of walking and acting 'male' why the hell doesn't this mystical concept of maleness apply to me

and sometimes i get to thinking about how even if i can change parts of me, even if i can lower my voice and get rid of my breasts, i'll never be able to get taller or even out my hips or waist or make my legs thinner so i can wear normal fucking pants. i know a guy who describes it as a loss that i have hips so well intended for birthing and yet no interest in children. what am i supposed to do, shave the bones down at the edges? if only. i can't change genetics. 

i'm not trying for sympathy i'm not trying to be like oh i have it worse because that's bullshit i just. feel like i'm up against a wall and i don't know what the fuck to do. what the fuck i even *can* do

god i'm sorry that got... really long. egh. probably better for a stupid complaint thread than here anyway. sorry


----------



## Worst Username Ever

So, lately I've been thinking about my sexuality and realized I'm asexual! Well, I've been suspecting it for a while now but wasn't completely sure (pretty much since I learnt about asexuality a few years ago), but it wasn't until earlier this year that I realized that yeah, this is actually how I feel, it hasn't changed during these years, this is me. So well, it feels nice to finally have figured it out!


----------



## surskitty

Worst Username Ever said:


> So, lately I've been thinking about my sexuality and realized I'm asexual! Well, I've been suspecting it for a while now but wasn't completely sure (pretty much since I learnt about asexuality a few years ago), but it wasn't until earlier this year that I realized that yeah, this is actually how I feel, it hasn't changed during these years, this is me. So well, it feels nice to finally have figured it out!


Go team ace!

I probably worked that one out like six years ago but it's still true.


----------



## Momo(th)

Worst Username Ever said:


> So, lately I've been thinking about my sexuality and realized I'm asexual! Well, I've been suspecting it for a while now but wasn't completely sure (pretty much since I learnt about asexuality a few years ago), but it wasn't until earlier this year that I realized that yeah, this is actually how I feel, it hasn't changed during these years, this is me. So well, it feels nice to finally have figured it out!


Welcome to the group!


----------



## Byrus

Soooo... I thought this might be of interest to the LGB folks - a children's movie called Paranorman features a gay character. From what I've read, it's actually done pretty well. It's not made a big deal of or anything, it's just a throwaway line. He's not a sterotype and he's not portrayed as nothing more than "that gay guy". 

Of course, homophobes are blathering on about the evils of marketing homosexuality to little kids and brainwashing them into thinking it's OK and blah blah blah. 



Verne said:


> wow so i haven't been around here a lot and i've been putting off posting this for a while but i am real upset already tonight so might as well
> 
> i am pretty next to done with even trying to successfully Do the Trans* Thing because it's so frickin futile and it's such a waste of time
> 
> not in general just for me. it's like we're all in a big maze and it might take a while and a lot of twists and turns but eventually it's possible to reach the end except my route was drawn wrong and i can only reach dead ends
> 
> for someone who's in a pretty privileged place -- i mean, like, my school is pretty much fine with lgbt people so far as i can tell, and if i ask people to call me matt they do so no problem -- i have pretty few opportunities. most of it is just stuff that i have no way of changing. we've gotten into a real bind lately financially speaking ... mom just got a link card, which is what they give to people who receive financial help/food stamps in illinois, and a while ago my dad stopped paying maintenance and the lawyer has *yet* to do anything about it (there was going to be a court date yesterday but they cancelled it). i don't have a summer job or anything and school stuff is always expensive, so i've never felt comfortable buying much of anything for myself, especially not things upwards of 30 dollars like binders and packers and the like. and like hell i'd ever be able to pay for hormones -- god i don't even like to think about how much therapy sessions cost, especially seeing as i generally waffle and don't tell her anything of import, hypocritical of me -- and i don't think i'd be able to talk to my mom about this let alone ask outright for something expensive that isn't absolutely necessary. i mean ... i only even own a binder because someone gave it to me as a birthday gift, but it doesn't even do much of anything. just kind of makes me more aware of what's wrong
> 
> before the summer started mom kept hinting that she was gonna try and get my name changed this summer, but. it all kinda went down the toilet. and it feels so fucking stupid because clover even went through all this effort to hepl me get it done but the lawyer is kind of an ass and she was so busy trying to say that my mom hadn't given her documents that we'd given her twice over that we couldn't even bring this up. money for living is kind of more important than a name change after all. i'm not even saying that like sarcastically or whatever, it really is.
> 
> and all that aside, too, i'm not exactly the most passable guy. i'm 5'3 with an eleven inch difference between my hips and waist and an hourglass figure. i've been asked twice this year if i was in seventh or eighth grade. i have a high pitched voice that goes higher when i'm excited. the last time i was gendered as male by a stranger was a few years ago. i have friends who accept me and use the right pronouns and everything, and that's fantastic, but it's not the same, i don't know, the whole immersion thing, the whole point of presenting male is just not there. cisgirls talk about being referred to as male more often than has happened to me. and i don't get it what am i doing wrong i have short hair i wear typically male clothes i even literally make a point of walking and acting 'male' why the hell doesn't this mystical concept of maleness apply to me
> 
> and sometimes i get to thinking about how even if i can change parts of me, even if i can lower my voice and get rid of my breasts, i'll never be able to get taller or even out my hips or waist or make my legs thinner so i can wear normal fucking pants. i know a guy who describes it as a loss that i have hips so well intended for birthing and yet no interest in children. what am i supposed to do, shave the bones down at the edges? if only. i can't change genetics.
> 
> i'm not trying for sympathy i'm not trying to be like oh i have it worse because that's bullshit i just. feel like i'm up against a wall and i don't know what the fuck to do. what the fuck i even *can* do
> 
> god i'm sorry that got... really long. egh. probably better for a stupid complaint thread than here anyway. sorry


I really didn't know how to respond to this post as I'm generally not good with these sorts of things, but I really hated to see this go ignored. I really hope you're feeling better, that sounds like a stressful situation. 

Just want to add that hormones do affect hips a lot more than you think. I don't actually know any trans guys on T who have wide hips.


----------



## Phantom

Worst Username Ever said:


> So, lately I've been thinking about my sexuality and realized I'm asexual! Well, I've been suspecting it for a while now but wasn't completely sure (pretty much since I learnt about asexuality a few years ago), but it wasn't until earlier this year that I realized that yeah, this is actually how I feel, it hasn't changed during these years, this is me. So well, it feels nice to finally have figured it out!





Viki said:


> Go team ace!


Oh, yeah, fist bump! *holds fist in air*

Silly stuff aside, that's great. :)


----------



## Lorem Ipsum

Just making sure, but all us UK folk have signed the C4EM petition haven't we?


----------



## Tailsy

Which reminds me! Scotland is already ahead of the rest of the UK, as usual~*~*~


----------



## yiran

What happens when you have a sex drive but aren't emotionally attracted to anyone the sexual way? Is it considered asexual or just aromantic or nothing?

Also if I want to be the opposite gender if I could choose but recognise myself as my gender and have no intention to have a sex change operation am I cisgender?


----------



## Flora

yiran said:


> What happens when you have a sex drive but aren't emotionally attracted to anyone the sexual way? Is it considered asexual or just aromantic or nothing?


That's considered aromantic *insertsexualattractionhere*sexual.


----------



## Jolty

yiran said:


> What happens when you have a sex drive but aren't emotionally attracted to anyone the sexual way? Is it considered asexual or just aromantic or nothing?
> 
> Also if I want to be the opposite gender if I could choose but recognise myself as my gender and have no intention to have a sex change operation am I cisgender?


aromantic I guess
and yes, cis


----------



## Dinru

yiran said:


> Also if I want to be the opposite gender if I could choose but recognise myself as my gender and have no intention to have a sex change operation am I cisgender?


Okay slow down there's some problematic language here that needs to be corrected so we're all on the same page.


Being trans* is not necessarily a simple desire to be a different gender. In nearly every case, it's an innate feeling that you already are that gender.
Also, there are more than two genders. Everyone knows what you mean when you say "opposite gender", but it's important to note that it erases the experiences of all of us who are neither a boy or a girl.
When you say you "recognise [your]self as [your] gender", you mean the one you were designated at birth, right? 'Cause lots of people, trans* and cis alike, recognize thier genders.
Having sex reassignment surgery is not the only thing necessary when one transitions from one social gender to another. The whole process is known as transitioning, and can be a hodgepodge of many different things including but not limited to hormone therapy, surgery, dressing more closely to your target gender, and telling everyone you know what you're doing and why.
Not everyone who is trans* desires medical transition. Not everyone who is trans* even desires social transition. People in the second group have cis-passing privilege up the wazoo, but they are not cis.
Nobody can tell you what you are, but from the sounds of it, you're probably cis and just like fantasizing about being another sex/gender. Nothing wrong with that.


----------



## Vipera Magnifica

I've also been doing a bit of reflecting myself, and have come to the conclusion that I must be heteroromantic asexual. Possibly demisexual. I find it to be a bit confusing. All I know for certain is that I am somewhere in the grey area between heterosexual and asexual.


----------



## Jolty

Dinru said:


> Okay slow down there's some problematic language here that needs to be corrected so we're all on the same page.
> 
> 
> Being trans* is not necessarily a simple desire to be a different gender. In nearly every case, it's an innate feeling that you already are that gender.
> Also, there are more than two genders. Everyone knows what you mean when you say "opposite gender", but it's important to note that it erases the experiences of all of us who are neither a boy or a girl.
> When you say you "recognise [your]self as [your] gender", you mean the one you were designated at birth, right? 'Cause lots of people, trans* and cis alike, recognize thier genders.
> Having sex reassignment surgery is not the only thing necessary when one transitions from one social gender to another. The whole process is known as transitioning, and can be a hodgepodge of many different things including but not limited to hormone therapy, surgery, dressing more closely to your target gender, and telling everyone you know what you're doing and why.
> Not everyone who is trans* desires medical transition. Not everyone who is trans* even desires social transition. People in the second group have cis-passing privilege up the wazoo, but they are not cis.
> Nobody can tell you what you are, but from the sounds of it, you're probably cis and just like fantasizing about being another sex/gender. Nothing wrong with that.


if you have no desire to transition (note: different from not being able to), you're not trans. if you are fine with seeing yourself as your birth sex, you are not trans.


----------



## shy ♡

Jolty said:


> if you have no desire to transition (note: different from not being able to), you're not trans. if you are fine with seeing yourself as your birth sex, you are not trans.


Bullshit.


----------



## Jolty

Pathos said:


> Bullshit.


if you don't want to transition and are totally fine with your birth sex, what exactly makes one trans?
please tell me


----------



## shy ♡

Jolty said:


> if you don't want to transition and are totally fine with your birth sex, what exactly makes one trans?
> please tell me


The fact that their gender =/= assigned gender at birth?


----------



## Jolty

Pathos said:


> The fact that their gender =/= assigned gender at birth?


"i'm male but i'm totes ok with having boobs and a vagina and i won't change any of it" 
makes all the sense.

i don't want to clog this thread is there somewhere else we can move this to


----------



## Dinru

Jolty said:


> i don't want to clog this thread is there somewhere else we can move this to


Done.


----------



## Momo(th)

Changed my previous post so that no one I know will find it.

But I found this to be a little interesting.


----------



## sovram

Nobody said:


> Changed my previous post so that no one I know will find it.
> 
> But I found this to be a little interesting.


am i the only one who found it a little painful to read this? weird switching between 'he' and 'she'? and 'full transformation to a woman'? what? :/ 

also, jesus fucking christ, the comments why


----------



## Rainbow Dashie

this is probably the most awful video I've ever seen

nice to see though that at least the dislike bar is where it should be at


----------



## Momo(th)

Rainbow Dashie said:


> this is probably the most awful video I've ever seen


Urrrrrgrhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhrhrhrhrhhr



> nice to see though that at least the dislike bar is where it should be at


Thank god that this generation of young people understand LGBT rights (well, _most_ young people). It is my hope that in a hundred years the new generation will act in disgust and shock when they learned that a gay couple could not get married back then, like how much of the young generation today act in disgust when they learned that black/African American people could not vote in the mid 1960's.


----------



## Zexion

Whelp, I am attempting to get a club set up for LGBT+ folks over at Ever Grande City. Hopefully it goes through.

*crosses fingers*


----------



## Momo(th)

Oh goodie!


----------



## Harlequin

Nick Griffin is such a cunt.


----------



## Dannichu

That was absolutely awful, but a bit of me finds the idea of Nick 'n' friends setting up a 'British Justice Team' funny in the most pathetic of ways.


----------



## Momo(th)

Awesome video is awesome


----------



## Phantom

*Sighs*

C'mon MN, it's not that hard.


----------



## Dannichu

Well done, Maine, Maryland and Washington :D And the US generally.

(especially Maine!)

All these states getting marriage equality is making me a bit embarrassed for the UK. If this continues while the UK keeps going 'but we have _civil unions_!', we won't be able to point and laugh at the US anymore, which means most of us will have to find new hobbies.


----------



## Jolty

Dannichu said:


> All these states getting marriage equality is making me a bit embarrassed for the UK. If this continues while the UK keeps going 'but we have _civil unions_!', we won't be able to point and laugh at the US anymore, which means most of us will have to find new hobbies.


oh god this yes
at least scotland seems to be getting somewhere ;_; maybe



edit: erm since i ain't posted in ere in ages, some sort of personal update thingamajig
i am most likely starting HRT in january/february
3 and a half years of waiting, man. it is happening.


----------



## Tailsy

yeah, Scotland's already confirmed that it's introducing marriage equality in 2015. Don't lump us into the UK shit man.


----------



## Dannichu

Yeah, but that's still three years away. Same-sex marriage has been legal in Iowa of all places since 2009. Why does it take so long? Maine was all 'guys, do we want gay marriage?' and everyone was like 'yeeeeaaaah!' and then it was legal. Brilliant.

And Jolty, I'm really happy for you! Best of luck with it :)


----------



## Phantom

Speaking of the Midwest, Minnesota beat the Marriage Amendment! Yay!


----------



## Harlequin

I think it took so long because we got civil unions not that long ago. Kind of like, "there's no rush for marriage because we gave them civil unions".


----------



## Tailsy

Dannichu said:


> Yeah, but that's still three years away. Same-sex marriage has been legal in Iowa of all places since 2009. Why does it take so long? Maine was all 'guys, do we want gay marriage?' and everyone was like 'yeeeeaaaah!' and then it was legal. Brilliant.


I don't think it's really as simple as that in Scottish law, though. I vaguely remember my mum (who used to work as a registrar and officiated many a civil partnership in her time) saying something about it being a pain in the arse to change the old laws that are all like MARRIAGE BETWEEN ONE MAN AND ONE WOMAN or something like that. I'm not sure how true that is but I can imagine old stuffy white dudes can be completely bothersome like that.

Besides, at least the Scottish Government isn't being wishy-washy about it like the coalition seem to be! (They are wishy-washy in other ways sometimes but that isn't the point.) The actual comment was that the first marriages would be able to take place in 2015, and they do seem to be leaving a lot of important things to the end of the Scottish Parliament's term (ex. independence referendum). It's something they're actively pursuing! Which is a lot more than you can say about the Tory/Lib Dem buttfaces.

Also it's really only two-and-a-wee-bit years since it's November... :P


----------



## Momo(th)

Came out to a incredibly close friend today.

It went well.


----------



## Dannichu

Harlequin said:


> I think it took so long because we got civil unions not that long ago. Kind of like, "there's no rush for marriage because we gave them civil unions".


Yeah, not having marriage sucks, but civil unions or indeed same-sex relationships being equal in the eyes of the law is actually really cool. Two of my housemates this year are a (heterosexual) couple and recently filled out a form applying for benefits as a couple, and thanks to some really weird phrasing, it sounded like same-sex couples wouldn't be allowed to apply for the same kinds of benefits. Naturally, I got filled with righteous indignation before finding out that same-sex couples _would_ be allowed. Although it didn't really change much for me because even if my girlfriend and I lived together, she's a no-good foreigner and we don't let them have benefits anyway.



Tailsy said:


> I don't think it's really as simple as that in Scottish law, though. I vaguely remember my mum (who used to work as a registrar and officiated many a civil partnership in her time) saying something about it being a pain in the arse to change the old laws that are all like MARRIAGE BETWEEN ONE MAN AND ONE WOMAN or something like that. I'm not sure how true that is but I can imagine old stuffy white dudes can be completely bothersome like that.
> 
> Besides, at least the Scottish Government isn't being wishy-washy about it like the coalition seem to be! (They are wishy-washy in other ways sometimes but that isn't the point.) The actual comment was that the first marriages would be able to take place in 2015, and they do seem to be leaving a lot of important things to the end of the Scottish Parliament's term (ex. independence referendum). It's something they're actively pursuing! Which is a lot more than you can say about the Tory/Lib Dem buttfaces.
> 
> Also it's really only two-and-a-wee-bit years since it's November... :P


That makes sense. Although I have a ton of free time and if someone wants to pay me to go CTRL + F through all the old laws and change them, I totally will. I've even gotten to a point where I can use tip-ex without getting most of it all over myself, if the old laws aren't digitalised yet.



Nobody said:


> Came out to a incredibly close friend today.
> 
> It went well.


:D Good for you!


----------



## Adriane

So my counselor asked me today if I could recommend any good trans resources/blogs to her. She's interested in writing a brochure for the office and starting a support group; she confided that more people have mentioned trans issues/concerns recently.

Suggestions would be appreciated!


----------



## Rainbow Dashie

Whipping Girl by Julia Serano is still the most complex, most properly argued with deductive logic book regarding the subject that I've read to date, although it's mainly only about trans women (and related topics like gender dissonance, the history of how trans women were/have been treated by the medical field, discrimination, sexism in society, view of femininity in society, gendering, conditional privilege, etc.) since Julia Serano felt like she doesn't have the right to talk in the name of others (trans men, non-binary people, intersex people, etc.) 


ALSO 

Lana Wachowski (co-director of the Matrix) receives the HRC Visibility Award 

surprised no one posted this video yet, it's really awesome of her that she did a public autobiographical speech about how being trans has affected her, and it was so inspiring I couldn't help but cry by the end


----------



## Eloi

Rainbow Dashie said:


> Whipping Girl by Julia Serano is still the most complex, most properly argued with deductive logic book regarding the subject that I've read to date, although it's mainly only about trans women (and related topics like gender dissonance, the history of how trans women were/have been treated by the medical field, discrimination, sexism in society, view of femininity in society, gendering, conditional privilege, etc.) since Julia Serano felt like she doesn't have the right to talk in the name of others (trans men, non-binary people, intersex people, etc.)
> 
> 
> ALSO
> 
> Lana Wachowski (co-director of the Matrix) receives the HRC Visibility Award
> 
> surprised no one posted this video yet, it's really awesome of her that she did a public autobiographical speech about how being trans has affected her, and it was so inspiring I couldn't help but cry by the end


I cried when she talked about her incomplete suicide attempt... It's so sad that more than 41% of transgender people in the United States have tried to kill themselves... (http://www.thetaskforce.org/downloads/reports/reports/ntds_summary.pdf)


----------



## Phantom

I've been thinking. 

Sexually, I have no desires or needs, and I consider myself asexual. As a whole I consider myself a biromantic asexual. Which I think I explained a while ago in that I can have a romantic relationship with a man or a woman, but when it comes to uh stuff, not so interested. This I can agree with myself on. It's the emotional connection I look for. As of right now I'm single, and I plan to be so, probaly indefinately. Which sucks, because of said desire for such emotional connections. 

(BTW I think I explained I'm a hopeless romantic? Especially with women, not sure why. I do believe an former girlfriend (I think I mentioned her, the one that got away?) referred to my remarks as romatically adorable yet groan worthy.... I'm the protective type, the one that'll tell you that if the world lays an effing finger on you it's DED DEAD.) 

But I've been thinking lately. 

I know the trans* and genderqueer community here is a big thing. There have been HUGE arguments, and, while I try to sideline myself as much as I can (and sometimes not as much as I should), some things make sense to me. Sometimes I just think this whole genderqueer thing is mumbo jumbo; especially the pronoun argument. I would always say that you are who/what you are, so just tell me what the fuck to call you and move on your merry way. But that doesn't mean I don't listen to what they're saying.

Now, I'm not a 'girly girl' by any means whatsoever. I wasn't raised with girls, rather my cousins who were 'tough guys' that I beat up on regular occasions because their idiots, but I love them like brothers. I can count how many times I've worn a dress on one hand. (Three by the way; my Communion, when I was my parent's flower girl, and my 8th grade graduation ceremony (I scared people that day, they were like "Holy shit, Ash is that _you?"_ I, on the other hand was like, "Shut it.") I don't like pink all that much, I don't wear makeup very often... or at all most of the time. I don't giggle at stupid things, or have to go to bathroom in groups. (Seriously, I don't get it.) (Aaaand I'm probably being a stereotypical jerk-butt, but I'm making a point.) I've always hung out with guys, been one of the guys, my best friends are guys. 

But I am by no means a guy.

I don't want to be a guy.

I've never thought about being a guy.

But I don't really fit in as a woman either. At least, not as society says I should. I know I'm a tomboy, but I don't go out of my way to be so. I don't look it at least, besides not wearing women's clothes. (Seriously, I hate women's tee shirts. I want _sleeves_ dammit.) 

At the same time my head is confused. I am asexual, there's no denying it... but sexuality and gender aren't always the same boat by any means. Which is, sadly, a bit of an abstract concept. I'm not sure if it qualifies as genderqueer or not. I don't think of myself as a guy, nor do I have desire to be one... but I tend to act more like a man than a woman. But I don't do so intentionally.

WhichismoarstereotypingbutshutityouknowwhatImean.

Not sure where to go from here. I think this stems from my Aspergers. I just want to be comfortable, and I go out of my way to be so. 

Take the clothing argument. I hate women's tee shirts. They have really short like slanted cuts on the sleeves. I HATE that. If I wear a woman's shirt I am constantly pulling at the sleeve. There's no reason, I just don't like my upper arm to be bare. So I wear men's tees, which have longer sleeves. I like more baggy pants because they are more comfortable. They aren't huge, just not skinny jeans. I don't avoid dresses because I think they are girly, I don't like them because I feel exposed in them. They are uncomfortable to me... plus a lot of them are lacking in sleeves... as previous argument explained. 

Take the emotional connection argument. When I care for someone it's not a fleeting thing, I get pretty attached. Thing is I go through my day not really attached to anyone at all. I bull shit and fake conversation. That's a thing with me, I can act pretty well. I think a lot of Aspies get _really_ good with acting like they know what they are doing. Online talking to people is much easier. 

If I actually start to care for someone it's a big thing. Now I sound like a bitch... dang it. It's not that I hate everyone or something like that. I care about everyone, but if I _really_ start to care, like family, it means way more than my friend at work. As it is, irl I only have one friend I really care about like that, and we've been friends for almost ten years now and it was only a year ago that I started considering him a brother. That's how scorned I am with making relationships with people. I'm starving for connection, which is why when I'm in a relationship they become my world. 

I don't think of myself as _anything, _really. I'm just me, I don't think of myself as "I'm a woman". I don't do that. If someone calls me a guy online, I'll correct them, just for the purpose of getting facts right. Which happens all the time. But I don't think of myself as anything at all. I never question it. Not really. It's sort of a no mans' land. (Haha punny)

I'm just wondering if anyone has an opinion. I'm trying to sort my thoughts here.


----------



## surskitty

Not being stereotypically feminine doesn't mean you're genderqueer.  It also doesn't mean you aren't.  No magic answers here, I'm afraid!


----------



## Jolty

Phantom said:


> Now, I'm not a 'girly girl' by any means whatsoever. I wasn't raised with girls, rather my cousins who were 'tough guys' that I beat up on regular occasions because their idiots, but I love them like brothers. I can count how many times I've worn a dress on one hand. (Three by the way; my Communion, when I was my parent's flower girl, and my 8th grade graduation ceremony (I scared people that day, they were like "Holy shit, Ash is that _you?"_ I, on the other hand was like, "Shut it.") I don't like pink all that much, I don't wear makeup very often... or at all most of the time. I don't giggle at stupid things, or have to go to bathroom in groups. (Seriously, I don't get it.) (Aaaand I'm probably being a stereotypical jerk-butt, but I'm making a point.) I've always hung out with guys, been one of the guys, my best friends are guys.
> 
> *But I am by no means a guy.
> 
> I don't want to be a guy.
> 
> I've never thought about being a guy.*
> 
> But I don't really fit in as a woman either. At least, not as society says I should. I know I'm a tomboy, but I don't go out of my way to be so. I don't look it at least, besides not wearing women's clothes. (Seriously, I hate women's tee shirts. I want _sleeves_ dammit.)
> 
> At the same time my head is confused. I am asexual, there's no denying it... but sexuality and gender aren't always the same boat by any means. Which is, sadly, a bit of an abstract concept. I'm not sure if it qualifies as genderqueer or not. *I don't think of myself as a guy, nor do I have desire to be one...* but I tend to act more like a man than a woman. But I don't do so intentionally.
> 
> WhichismoarstereotypingbutshutityouknowwhatImean.
> 
> Not sure where to go from here. I think this stems from my Aspergers. I just want to be comfortable, and I go out of my way to be so.
> 
> Take the clothing argument. I hate women's tee shirts. They have really short like slanted cuts on the sleeves. I HATE that. If I wear a woman's shirt I am constantly pulling at the sleeve. There's no reason, I just don't like my upper arm to be bare. So I wear men's tees, which have longer sleeves. I like more baggy pants because they are more comfortable. They aren't huge, just not skinny jeans. I don't avoid dresses because I think they are girly, I don't like them because I feel exposed in them. They are uncomfortable to me... plus a lot of them are lacking in sleeves... as previous argument explained.
> 
> 
> 
> *I don't think of myself as anything, really. I'm just me, I don't think of myself as "I'm a woman".* I don't do that. If someone calls me a guy online, I'll correct them, just for the purpose of getting facts right. Which happens all the time. But I don't think of myself as anything at all. I never question it. Not really. It's sort of a no mans' land. (Haha punny)
> 
> I'm just wondering if anyone has an opinion. I'm trying to sort my thoughts here.


kinda answered that yourself
if you have no desire to be male and don't really care that you're female, that's that

you can still be a woman and be masculine, your gender has absolutely nothing to do with the way you act or dress. nothing.


----------



## Butterfree

Phantom, you sound pretty much like me a year or two ago. I had the waffly "but I don't really think of myself as anything!" thing and the acting 'like a guy' but not feeling like that made me one thing, too.

Then I started reading this trans woman's blog, and at some point as I was reading one of her posts (possibly the one about the distinction between gender identity and gender expression), it suddenly hit me that yes, I actually _do_ think of myself as a woman. I'm way off feminine stereotypes and scoff at most supposedly "girly" things and hate high heels and find dresses mostly annoying and never played with dolls - but, ultimately, like you, if somebody thinks I'm a guy, I correct them. I want people to think of me as a woman. It doesn't have to be a big important ~I am a woman~ thing in your head - I doubt it is for most cis people, who don't need to think much about gender identity. But if you consider telling people on the internet who think you're a guy that you're a girl to just be a matter of "getting facts right", I would strongly suspect that, like me, you do consider yourself a woman even if it doesn't feel very important to you because it hasn't been threatened or challenged or had to be reevaluated.

Of course, you _could_ be some form of genderqueer and just tell people you're a girl when they call you 'him' because you've internalized the idea that that's what you're supposed to do - but I don't think the "I'm just me" feeling is actually a sign of genderqueerness in itself, because at least I felt the same way and that was just because I didn't have a proper sense of what gender really meant.

Are you perfectly happy to be regarded as a stereotype-breaking woman? Then that's probably what you are. Feeling like you "should" be one gender or another because of cultural stereotypes is just trying to squeeze yourself into yet another box.


----------



## Phantom

Thanks for the thoughts guys. Made me think a little more.

Anyways, something happened. I was bored and started to look on craigslist ads. I saw a girl who posted and she actually seemed really nice. I emailed, and we've been talking.

Only to find out we met once before.

When I was 16.

That was an 'Holy Shit' moment to be sure. It was a quick meeting and I didn't talk to her. We were back in my old police post, and a few guys got into a fight with each other, both our posts. It was a huge gossip fest. And my team and I were talking to a friend from the other post and this girl showed up to talk to our friend. 

It was a fleeting moment, and I barely remember it. So this girl and I just started texting... and we found this out. It's sort of insane. We click really really well. I really want to keep talking to her. But man, small world.


----------



## Lady Grimdour

Dear GOD I've not been here in a while!

Hello, everyone! Quick update: I am now officially on the NHS waiting list! PLUS got a month's work, so can't wait to get started on that and get myself started on the hormone treatment.

Also, officially six months fulltime now! WOOP.


----------



## Rainbow Dashie

congrats Grimdour :3 (I remember you from the old annual music tournament threads, nice to see other metalhead trans women on here :D)


----------



## Lady Grimdour

Rainbow Dashie said:


> congrats Grimdour :3 (I remember you from the old annual music tournament threads, nice to see other metalhead trans women on here :D)


Thanks~ Now I'm gonna sound like a douchenozzle but I can't actually remember you.

Also, just for discussion, what's everyone's stance on selfmedication? Currently working towards a month's batch. :3


----------



## Byrus

Grimdour, congrats on coming out and I hope everything works well. 

However, I really really recommend against self-medicating; it can be extremely dangerous and have a lot of negative long-term effects. It might be a bit different with estrogen, but with my own experience, you need regular check-ups and blood tests to check your levels are stable and your body is coping with the dose. Seriously, it's not something that should be done without supervision from a professional.


----------



## Lady Grimdour

Thanks, I've looked into doing this for years now, hoping somehow that if I knew enough I can do it, not really realizing the financial stress it'll bring.

Now, it's actually a possibility. I'm putting myself on 4mg estrogen and 250mg spironolactone, which is the recommended dosage for my BMI. Fingers crossed, I suppose.


----------



## Byrus

Is there any chance you can ask your doctor about having some blood checks? I hate to sound like a pest 'cause I know how awesome it feels to finally get hormones, but. It's just I've spoken to people who've self-medicated in the past and it didn't go well to say the least. In the past I felt so low I just went, "fuck it I'll do it myself" and looked into getting hormones in the black market (and even steroids but christ let's not go there), but speaking with people who've had experience with it was enough to put me off, which is saying something. 

Eh, that's just my thoughts, in the end, it's your decision. I really hope it goes well for you, best of luck.


----------



## Lady Grimdour

It's perfectly fine, I'd rather people actually questioned my choices, because they raise the questions I may gloss over, and in the end regret not having asked myself.

I can definitely have some blood checks done, that's easy enough. Most of the selfmedicating stories I've heard are pretty damn positive, but only when done correctly, hence why I'm going on the lowest dose I can without it not actually doing anything.


----------



## Momo(th)

Grimdour the Worldbreaker said:


> Dear GOD I've not been here in a while!
> 
> Hello, everyone! Quick update: I am now officially on the NHS waiting list! PLUS got a month's work, so can't wait to get started on that and get myself started on the hormone treatment.
> 
> Also, officially six months fulltime now! WOOP.


Congrats!

This has made my day:)


----------



## Rainbow Dashie

Grimdour the Worldbreaker said:


> Thanks, I've looked into doing this for years now, hoping somehow that if I knew enough I can do it, not really realizing the financial stress it'll bring.
> 
> Now, it's actually a possibility. I'm putting myself on 4mg estrogen and 250mg spironolactone, which is the recommended dosage for my BMI. Fingers crossed, I suppose.


I've talked with people who were on as low prescribed dosages as 2mg Estradiol and 100mg Spiro (taken in two 50mg instances per day) for months before it got upped to 4+ mg Estradiol and 200+ mg Spiro. They really aren't meds that should be taken at higher dosages from the start, your body needs to get gradually used to them.

That being said, I recommend against self-medding. But if you really need to do it, then get bloodwork done frequently especially at the start.

Know that Spiro makes Potassium get retained in the system (and can lead to hyperkalemia and eventually fatal abnormal heart rhythms if too much Potassium gets into the system while on Spiro aka until an orchiectomy/SRS) while Sodium gets eliminated from the system (and can therefore lead most commonly to muscular spasms but also to other disorders related to electrolyte imbalances), so you'll have to be on a diet with as little Potassium as possible, and more Sodium than usual. Spiro will also make you drink a lot more as it eliminates a lot more water from the system.

Estradiol may lead to abdominal cramps and blood clots, but apparently patches reduce the risks compared to pills/injections.

You might also have pain down there due to Spiro atrophying the muscles.

And many other even rarer possible side-effects. So it's best to do it under the supervision of qualified people.


----------



## Lady Grimdour

Is it possible to get my bloodwork checked out via the NHS when selfmedicating?


----------



## Byrus

I'm not sure, maybe you could ask your G.P. I get my own bloodwork done at my local G.P, but that's with hormones that have been prescribed to me by my doctor and therapist. I don't know where you're getting your hormones, but it would probably be worthwhile looking into the legality of this too. I don't know if estrogen is a controlled substance the way testosterone is, so I might be on the wrong track, but yeah, just a heads up. 

I found this page which includes good general information, as well as some info on the legality of it all. Most info I googled seemed to be based on American laws though, which was pretty irritating. Maybe you'll have better luck.

This page shows recommended dosages, and it looks like Dashie was right about the spironolactone dose.


----------



## Jolty

so i'm pretty sure i am getting testosterone on 21st january
going to the doctors on wednesday to have a shitload of blood tests done lol

it's a weird feeling though
absolutely no excitement whatsoever, just the feeling of "wow maybe my life will stop being a shitty void of nothingness now"


----------



## Byrus

MORE CONGRATS. :D It probably all still feels surreal to you, especially since you were waiting so long. You'll probably get more excited when it all sinks in.


----------



## opaltiger

Here's something I thought was pretty cool. From the Aeroflot in-flight magazine:


----------



## Harlequin

I always feel uncomfortable when people say "the Wachowski brothers", but then I correct them and I feel a bit better!


----------



## Momo(th)

This must took quite a bit of balls to do.

But I am seriously suspecting that the majority of Yahoo! users that bother to comment are either right-wingers or trolls.


----------



## Spoon

The Illinois Senate passed a bill  for marriage equality! 

So this will make ten states (and DC) that will have legalized same-sex marriage, I think.


----------



## Adriane

I'm. Coming out to a significant portion of the student body and community on the 28th. It's Senior Night and senior members of the basketball team and spirit organisations are recognised (and given a short bio).

I'm more worried I'd be the only one there without my parents present.


----------



## Dannichu

Spoon said:


> The Illinois Senate passed a bill  for marriage equality!
> 
> So this will make ten states (and DC) that will have legalized same-sex marriage, I think.


Wheeeeey, that's great! :D We're actually a whole bunch closer to marriage equality in the UK now; the bill passed through the House of Commons with a pretty big majority the other day. It's actually really strange, because lots of the Tories I have a special dislike-chamber in my heart for (Theresa May, George Osborne, Cammy himself) sent letters to the Conservative MPs telling them to vote the bill through and I DON'T KNOW HOW TO FEEL about these people fighting my corner. It feels like being in Opposite-Land.



			
				Fynx said:
			
		

> I'm. Coming out to a significant portion of the student body and community on the 28th. It's Senior Night and senior members of the basketball team and spirit organisations are recognised (and given a short bio).
> 
> I'm more worried I'd be the only one there without my parents present.


Good luck! I bet you'll do amazingly :)


----------



## Harlequin

We're totes going to get gay marriage. it's still unequal though because gay couples have no consummation requirement nor is adultery automatically grounds for divorce. 

and gays can still get civil partnerships

yay rights!


----------



## Dannichu

Harlequin said:


> We're totes going to get gay marriage. it's still unequal though because gay couples have no consummation requirement nor is adultery automatically grounds for divorce.


But how can lesbians have _proper_ sex? If sex doesn't involve a penis, it doesn't count! If it was good enough for Queen Vic, it's good enough for us!

Seriously though, this is also why there's no age of consent for lesbians, and I'm pretty sure British law doesn't recognize non-consensual sex not involving penile penetration as rape.


----------



## Harlequin

Lorem Ipsum said:


> It's because Conservatives aren't actually made of dark, festering evil - we actually have some pretty sensible views!
> 
> On an unrelated note I lost my virginity today. Woo gay.


No, the Conservatives are p much evil. they've just got a slightly pink tinge to it.

woo gay! hooray.

on a similar note i'm seeing a new man. he's lovely.



Dannichu said:


> But how can lesbians have _proper_ sex? If sex doesn't involve a penis, it doesn't count! If it was good enough for Queen Vic, it's good enough for us!
> 
> Seriously though, this is also why there's no age of consent for lesbians, and I'm pretty sure British law doesn't recognize non-consensual sex not involving penile penetration as rape.


you shut up about lesbian sex it's not real how dare you even suggest that it's possible for two women to have sex without a penis

!!!!

Yeah, I don't think it does. It's terrible. :(


----------



## Jolty

can his GP refer him (her?) to a gender clinic?
apparently there is one in exeter, not sure how close that is to you though since your profile only says SW england. 

also if she's not 18 yet it might be a bit difficult anyway, i was told to wait until i was 18 before i could be referred

if she's like, completely sure she wants to transition then trying for a referral sooner rather than later would be best since loads of clinics have some mega waiting times for appointments... i got lucky with my place, i only had to wait 2-3 months. apparently the one in leeds has a 3 year wait jfc

also
do you know how long ago she told her parents? if it was kinda recent then yeah they could come around to it eventually. nearly 4 years later and my mum is only JUST getting used to the idea about me being male. my dad was a lot quicker to accept though


----------



## Scootaloo

i've been on facebook and I noticed that a lot of people's avatars are red and have an = or > symbol (like this 

	
	
		
		
	


	




) is this related to LGBT subjects in any way? (I'm asking this because that particular one is on the LGBTQ facebook page)


----------



## Flora

Pinsir: Yeah, it's in support of equal marriage in the US from the day SCOTUS (Supreme Court) began discussing Prop 8.

(On a semi-related note, I'm not entirely sure where I stand on the importance of equal marriage in the grand scheme of QUILTBAG rights; on the one hand, I think it's a really big step in the right direction, but on the other hand I know there's a lot of other issues that are really important as well (likelihood of homelessness in particular))

IN OTHER NEWS my sis came out to my parents as ace and they seem super cool about it! My dad's a little confused about it (which I can understand, because it's definitely a lesser-known thing), and I'm not entirely sure what my mom said cause i wasn't there (neither my younger sis or I even knew it happened until my younger sis said "hey now you just gotta tell mom" and my older sis was all "no I did that") but from what I heard she was cool with it.

They seem pretty cool about bisexuality too (for the most part: My dad thinks it's exclusively feminine, which...is a little strange, but oh well. Either way that's more accepting than some people I've seen), so I should probably come out to them too...but I don't really think I'm ready for that. (For reasons including "jesus christ is my crush THAT OBVIOUS when you take away my assumed heterosexuality")


----------



## Ether's Bane

Some terrific news from South America!

Also, I made this post on Tumblr.


----------



## Zero Moment

Lyra Heartstrings said:


> Some terrific news from South America!
> 
> Also, I made this post on Tumblr.


Good job Uruguay.

I'll continue an off forum bet and say that I bet both Britain and France will have gay marriage before the majority of the US.


----------



## hopeandjoy

"I hate it when girls turn lesbian. It's so awkward."

Every time I think I might not be so awful...


----------



## Glace

Apparently both houses in France have passed a bill to legalize not only same-sex marriage but also allows them to adopt children too. However, this isn't exactly legalized just yet, just passed by the houses. This is because the Senate made some modifications to it, and it needs to be sent back down to get reapproved I guess. source.

Not sure if this has already been mentioned, but!


----------



## Momo(th)

So, is anyone else doing day of silence?


----------



## ultraviolet

wiki said:
			
		

> Same-sex marriage will become legal in New Zealand on 19 August 2013. A bill for the legalisation was passed by the New Zealand House of Representatives on 17 April 2013, 77 votes to 44 in its third and final reading, and received the Royal Assent on 19 April 2013.[1][2]


so maybe Australia will be like 'oh damn we should get on that' because Aus support for gay marriage is the same as New Zealand (something like 60-65%), it's just that our politicians are like 'no because of reasons'.


----------



## Ether's Bane

Dragoon said:


> So, is anyone else doing day of silence?


*is observing Day of Silence in a unique way this year, as you can see*


----------



## Spoon

Dragoon said:


> So, is anyone else doing day of silence?


Considering that I have group work today, I can't. Breaking my streak of four years. D:!


----------



## Ether's Bane

Something fairly noteworthy.

Major, major props to him, especially considering that he is in an environment that often tends to be homophobic.


----------



## Phantom

I love my state! Minnesota is on it's way to legalizing same sex marriage. The House voted in favor!


----------



## Zero Moment

Delaware legalized same-sex marriage two days ago. Good job.


----------



## Byrus

Uh, I think I mentioned awhile back I was gonna post photos of my top surgery results, so here they are. Taken on a camera phone so the quality isn't so great, but my flashy, high-tech camera seems to have died for good. BLAH.

Standing up
Close up

So yeah, no scarring, and I'm really pleased with the results. No more binders, plus I can wear sleeveless shirts and go swimming. I really feel like it's improved my quality of life, and I'm still overwhelmed that I got this covered on the NHS. Before my therapist talked to me about it, I spent the longest time thinking "oh jesus how am i gonna afford this" because I was doing all my research about surgery on American sites. I can't even begin to describe my relief when I realised it was completely covered. (even the travel and food!)

So, now I've fully recovered, I've begun discussing bottom surgery with my therapist. Phalloplasty is what I've decided on, because the metoidioplasty doesn't achieve what I want, and I don't think I'd be satisfied with it. The current goal is for possible surgery a year from now, the main tricky part is finding a way to juggle it with my courses and work placement. I'm aiming to finish my I.T course at the minute, so that's roughly 9 months from now. I'm really excited in general about it.


----------



## Jolty

wow your chest looks great! happy for you, man :D

hopefully this should be happening for me too next year....  omg is travel and food and stuff really covered on the nhs though that's the best thing i've ever heard

and good luck with the phalloplasty!!


----------



## Phantom

Guess who finally had a total sitdown with her family today? This person. 

It was... Not bad. My mom cried a bit and my dad was quiet. My grandma, well I'm not sure, she's a really good actor... but they aren't mad, that's a plus. 

I think I finally got through to them that it isn't a phase, or something I am going through. They agreed, saying, according to my mother that when I mentioned being bi (back in the day I labeled myself that because I was in that stage of discovering myself) they knew that there was a 95% chance of being totally lesbain. So my mom said she was only 5% shocked. I think that works. They said they love me because I am a good person, that I'm theirs, not because of who I love. 

My mom was actually upset I didn't say anything sooner. 

Anywho, I didn't go into big labeling, I just said that yep, I like woman. I've dated women. 

It's a happy feeling. Like... it feels like it's my birthday. It's just that excitement you feel just under your skin and you just feel like nothing can go wrong. Like I have exciting news to tell everybody. 

I think it's the best thing I've done in a long time.


----------



## Flora

SPEAKING OF COMING OUT OH MAN

I've been coming out to various people little by little, starting with tumblr and just continuing on with the people who don't know. 

(I've posted about this in the fwee/grr threads but I figured I'd make a compilation post)

So I came out to a couple friends on Saturday and they were cool with it (which I expected : for being catholic private school students they're really cool about sexuality and shit, plus one friend already came out as bi and everyone was fine) and one of them asked if they could tell another friend (which is...weird because why do you care???? I swear to god that was confusing) and I said she could

So the friend she told messaged me saying "oh yeah I knew" and I thought she knew from tumblr but no she knew THE WHOLE FUCKING TIME APPARENTLY


----------



## Aletheia

Aletheia said:


> So guys
> I hate to disrupt your discussion of QUILTBAG characters on TV
> but I'd just like to report that I've been getting these pesky butterflies in my stomach whenever someone refers to me as a female
> Wat do


it's been 20 months and I've basically made zero practical progress and I think that's beautiful


----------



## Byrus

Eh, try not to be so hard on yourself. It's a really long journey that tends to happen very slowly. If it helps, try keeping track of your progress and concentrate on all the positive steps you've achieved. I kept something like that for a while, but I got sorta lazy with it, and I'm kinda regretting that.


----------



## Ever

I know I'm horribly inactive but guys my brother has just spent the entirety of dinner arguing against gays (and women) in the military before comparing being gay to being a pedophile. I'm absolutely terrified to come out to my family and I don't know what to do.

On a happier note, on Friday we had what we call "pink tsunami" (is this strictly for my school or what?) and a bunch of people wore pink and it was really awesome.


----------



## Flora

Ever said:


> I know I'm horribly inactive but guys my brother has just spent the entirety of dinner arguing against gays (and women) in the military before comparing being gay to being a pedophile. I'm absolutely terrified to come out to my family and I don't know what to do.


*hugs* your brother sounds like a jerk. or at least someone with terrible opinions.

Stuff like this is a whole lot worse coming from people you care about. I'm sorry, dear :(


----------



## Phantom

Aaaaand bumping. 

 How's everyone doing? This place has been dead for a bit so I thought I'd bring it back. Any news? Developments? Heard anything interesting?


----------



## Hiikaru

Oh, I thought about posting this a while ago. I forgot what we were talking about but basically this:

Ki: "[Person] likes that."
Dad: "Huh. She should -"
Mom: "I think [Person] uses 'they' now."
Dad: "Oh, okay. They should..."

Apparently my parents decided to notice pronouns at some point?

Also one of my sisters found something I tried to throw away a while ago and a couple of weeks ago I said something about pronouns and she went "your pronouns are vi/vir/vim :D" "... what?" "I read it on this paper I found on the floor in my room!" That was all she had to say about it so I don't how to feel but that's a thing.

It's hard to think of specific things because it's been a while since anything new happened, but my parents and sisters seem more interested in trans* issues in general, so hooray.


----------



## Ether's Bane

Still only out as bi to my mom and my two younger siblings.

I definitely won't come out on Tumblr/Facebook/Reddit, though - I only feel comfortable doing so on small websites, like this one. (PM me if you wanna know why.)

Doing a project for college on why it's wrong for parents to choose what gender their child will be raised as (obviously, this will include lots of stuff that has to do with non-cis people).

And... that's it right now.


----------



## Phantom

So for me, I'm still with my girlfriend, despite the issues we've been having. I'm being patient. We've been together technically for about four months now. 

My parents have started taking interest in her though. I met her parents first, and she's met mine. I even met her grandparents. Whole family liked me, which is a plus. Her little brother apparently really likes me. 

Hmmm, my grandma even asked about her. My grandmother who, despite what I believed before, was not as cool about me being gay as I thought she was. But it seems like she's being cool nonetheless.

I'm completely out now, to everyone, no regret or remorse or anything. I honestly just don't care what people think anymore. I'm me, they don't like it, honestly, they can go fluff themselves.


----------



## Momo(th)

Umm . . . I came out to my best friend/roomate about three months ago, and I think it's been about three weeks that I finally came out to my parents. My stepfather immediately freaked out and I haven't heard from him since, although tbh I don't really care about him, and my mom was against it at first (sending me through a near-suicidal depression) but she became alright with it. Now three of my friends know about it, and I'm now finally going to start living my dream since I was five and start transitioning:)

Oh, and I was cuddling with my roomate last night. She's the best:)


----------



## kyeugh

This is all confusing. Can we ignore sexuality and just go for anyone attractive?


----------



## Flora

Majora said:


> This is all confusing. Can we ignore sexuality and just go for anyone attractive?


I fully support this idea.


----------



## Jolty

is everyone doing an update on their lives

uh well i've been on testosterone for over a year and was gonna get referred for top surgery this month but too much shit has happened in the past 6 months so they're not doing it now. have to wait until june at the earliest. fuckin bollocks man

haven't spoken to my mum in a few weeks because she said i will no longer be a part of her family if i go through with surgery. dunno what's going on with this at the moment but eventually she will disown me and i am trying to not care.

same sex marriage became properly legal in england and wales yesterday which is pretty rad. if only i had a man to marry :v


----------



## Kinova

Majora said:


> This is all confusing. Can we ignore sexuality and just go for anyone attractive?





Flora said:


> I fully support this idea.


Thirded.

(I accidentally started dating a boy whoops)

(I kinda feel dumb having incorrectly labelled myself to people previously but like I'd only been into girls at the time so)

(mostly I'm past caring about any particular label)

(and he's nice)

Quite a lot of your situations sound really crappy though. Jolty, you seem to have been going through this rigmarole for so long, and I'm so sorry about your mum. Come, let me shower you with affection


----------



## Byrus

I got a date (17th sep) from the London hospital for a physical assessment for phalloplasty. I'm really excited about this, it's one of those things you just never think is going to actually happen.

I also went to a hospital appointment for getting electrolysis on my arm (since they use the skin from that to make the phallus), and it seems it'll take roughly two months of the treatment to get the job done. So presumably that's going to start when the London doctors outline what they're going to work on, and then the surgery appointment comes after.

I've been thinking about whether I want to do a write up on my trans related tumblr blog about the process when I go through it. There's a couple of other trans guys doing it, which makes me a bit more confident about the whole thing. The more people talking about their personal experiences the better, since there's still so much disinformation around it.


----------



## Jolty

Byrus said:


> I got a date (17th sep) from the London hospital for a physical assessment for phalloplasty. I'm really excited about this, it's one of those things you just never think is going to actually happen.
> 
> I also went to a hospital appointment for getting electrolysis on my arm (since they use the skin from that to make the phallus), and it seems it'll take roughly two months of the treatment to get the job done. So presumably that's going to start when the London doctors outline what they're going to work on, and then the surgery appointment comes after.
> 
> I've been thinking about whether I want to do a write up on my trans related tumblr blog about the process when I go through it. There's a couple of other trans guys doing it, which makes me a bit more confident about the whole thing. The more people talking about their personal experiences the better, since there's still so much disinformation around it.


i didn't know you could get lower surgery this soon after top, that's awesome

also i'd definitely like to see a write up of it. i'm still undecided on which surgery to have (or if i'll even have it) because like you said, so much disinformation...


----------



## Byrus

Yeah, I think the minimum length of time between major surgeries is a year.

Blogging about my surgery is a pretty nerve-racking thought, but the misconceptions about phalloplasty cause me no end of frustration. Particularly when most of the people insulting it don't have genital dysphoria in the first place. It's bad enough hearing transphobes say shit like that, but hearing it from your fellow trans people feels so much worse. I think part of the problem comes from the fact that most of the photos online only show the first stage, and people go off thinking that's the end result.

But yeah, I can understand being undecided about it, because it's just like... really difficult to get extensive info about the process. Pretty much all of my most useful info and advice was from my therapist. I was also able to talk to another trans man who had fully completed the surgery, and that helped a lot. I'd recommend asking your therapist if there's a post-op trans man you can talk to if you get the chance.


----------



## ZimD

Hi.

I don't have anything in particular to contribute but on a whim I feel like posting on this site for the first time in years and I feel like doing it here.

How is life treating all of you lovely people


----------



## Momo(th)

I broke up with my girlfriend, but it was quite a mature breakup. No tears or cursing or anything :)

And my transition plans are on hold at the moment because of moving guaahh.


----------



## Ether's Bane

I intend to come out to my dad soon. Although he used to be really homophobic, his views have definitely softened since then, so I feel safer taking a chance.


----------



## Jolty

after 9 months of being delayed for top surgery they are referring me for it right now.
may 2015 hell fuckin yea


----------



## Stormecho

I co-wrote an article about asexuality and visibility!

it's for a university newspaper buuut it's like my first written thing ever out on the net that isn't fanfic so I'm kind of ridiculously proud of it


----------



## Byrus

I got a date for my phalloplasty surgery on the 5th of February. I'm still kind of in shock about it, because it just felt like one of those far off pipe dreams. But yeah, I'm really nervous and excited.

I'm glad I went on tumblr, because there seem to be a lot of trans men in their early twenties going through the same surgery with the London team. It makes me feel a lot more at ease.


----------



## Kinova

Byrus said:


> I got a date for my phalloplasty surgery on the 5th of February. I'm still kind of in shock about it, because it just felt like one of those far off pipe dreams. But yeah, I'm really nervous and excited.
> 
> I'm glad I went on tumblr, because there seem to be a lot of trans men in their early twenties going through the same surgery with the London team. It makes me feel a lot more at ease.


This is tomorrow! Best of luck - very excited for you.


----------



## kyeugh

Oh!  Yes, good luck, Byrus, let us know how it goes!


----------



## Momo(th)

Byrus said:


> I got a date for my phalloplasty surgery on the 5th of February. I'm still kind of in shock about it, because it just felt like one of those far off pipe dreams. But yeah, I'm really nervous and excited.
> 
> I'm glad I went on tumblr, because there seem to be a lot of trans men in their early twenties going through the same surgery with the London team. It makes me feel a lot more at ease.


Congrats dude!


----------



## Phantom

Byrus, we need an update my friend!

How is everyone, btw? 

LGBT news-wise in my life, besides putting myself out there and talking to new people (omg, I've been talking to this new woman the last few days, she's absolutely amazing and like no one else I've ever met) I tried restarting the LGBT alliance at my old high school. Note, it's a private Catholic school. I started it a few years ago, right after I had graduated, but it got removed after the whole "Vote Yes/No" thing that happened here in MN and the same-sex marriage ban got the boot. I applied about two weeks ago to have it restarted, but it's been a battle. I originally started it in late 2009 after there was a freshman that year that commited suicide after some bullying and some family issues. I kept in contact with the kids that were in the program, and from what I hear from then, the group is still needed now more than ever and I'm trying to get it back. Fighting the damn board the whole way. It's annoying as hell.


----------



## Flora

oh man i didn't talk about coming out to my college friends. well most of them anyway, some of them weren't there by virtue of GRADUATING (grumble grumble) but yeah basically everyone knows

i kinda springboarded off another friend who had recently discovered her own bisexuality and was super chill with it so i was like "wait you're bi cool me too"

basically everyone was super chill, one friend was being kinda an asshole but we talked and i feel a little better


----------



## Jolty

YEAH BYRUS WHENEVER YOU GET A CHANCE PLS TELL US HOW IT WENT

me: got a consultation for top surgery on the 18th, actual surgery will be may/june i think. 
also currently have a girlfriend (who is also bi) and am still surrounded by straight people irl 24/7. is rather tiring.

do any other bi/pan/whatev people get the weird guilt feeling when you are in an opposite sex relationship and it's like. you could very well appear straight. and you just feel bad about that. like you're not Gay™ enough.


----------



## kyeugh

I've felt that way in the past, yeah, but what helped me through that is remembering that my sexuality is a defining part of me but isn't my definition; I don't have to act Gay™ just because I am, just like a girl doesn't have to act like a stereotypical girl just because she's a girl.


----------



## Ether's Bane

Jolty said:


> do any other bi/pan/whatev people get the weird guilt feeling when you are in an opposite sex relationship and it's like. you could very well appear straight. and you just feel bad about that. like you're not Gay™ enough.


I am bi and am not currently in an opposite-sex relationship, but for me, it would be quite the opposite. If I were in such a relationship, appearing straight would actually be a way of survival for me (as it already is, but in a lesser sense, every day).

Fuck this country.


----------



## Arylett Charnoa

I guess I get that vaguely (being in an opposite sex relationship right now), but what does it matter if people think I'm straight? It does not affect me. Sexuality isn't really something I think about very much. I just do whatever feels right. And besides, there's really no way in hell I can ever stop liking women regardless of whether other people know that. I am still very much as gay as I am straight. Actually, probably more. But eh, he's awesome and I'm happy, so who cares.


----------



## Dar

Jolty said:


> do any other bi/pan/whatev people get the weird guilt feeling when you are in an opposite sex relationship and it's like. you could very well appear straight. and you just feel bad about that. like you're not Gay™ enough.


I can say that I have, then again I've never dated a straight person


----------



## Byrus

Thanks for the well wishes, guys! Unfortunately, my surgery date had to be changed from the 5th to the 25th of Feb. Kinda annoying but unavoidable. On the plus side, I have figured out how to make posts from my android phone (before that, it was stuffing up on me for some reason), so I should be able to post updates alright.  



> do any other bi/pan/whatev people get the weird guilt feeling when you are in an opposite sex relationship and it's like. you could very well appear straight. and you just feel bad about that. like you're not Gay™ enough.


I'm straight, but I have a similar problem to this in that... I dunno, I guess it still feels new to me that I can be in relationship with a woman and have (most of) the same privileges as a straight guy. I still sort of find myself trying to prepare for the inevitable homophobic slurs before I actually remember that I don't have to deal with those anymore. It creates a strange sort of guilt for me too, especially when my lesbian friends talk about what they have to deal with.


----------



## Phantom

Byrus said:


> Thanks for the well wishes, guys! Unfortunately, my surgery date had to be changed from the 5th to the 25th of Feb. Kinda annoying but unavoidable.


Boo, that sucks.


----------



## horgie

Hi I Like To Knitting In my Free Time


----------



## Music Dragon

horgie said:


> Hi I Like To Knitting In my Free Time


You're adorable!


----------



## horgie

!Thank You


----------



## Orchestra

I found this place while trying to search for something. Coincidence, or stroke of luck? 

Either way, hello everyone... I'm not exactly sure how to introduce myself here, or even if I'm allowed to. Regardless, I'll get to the meat and potatoes.

I am a male. Physically, at least. I have never been happy with it, and for the longest time, I have wished to be female. As for sexuality, I like everyone. Male, female, trans, and if it were possible, the genderless. I am into a person for their personality (Looks, intelligence and such are just icing on the cake

... Sorry if this is a random, scatterbrained opening. I am simply unsure of what to say/do here. This is my first time talking about this particular subject in public.


----------



## Ether's Bane

Orchestra said:


> I found this place while trying to search for something. Coincidence, or stroke of luck?
> 
> Either way, hello everyone... I'm not exactly sure how to introduce myself here, or even if I'm allowed to.


Sure, of course you are. 



> Regardless, I'll get to the meat and potatoes.
> 
> I am a male. Physically, at least. I have never been happy with it, and for the longest time, I have wished to be female. As for sexuality, I like everyone. Male, female, trans, and if it were possible, the genderless. I am into a person for their personality (Looks, intelligence and such are just icing on the cake
> 
> ... Sorry if this is a random, scatterbrained opening. I am simply unsure of what to say/do here. This is my first time talking about this particular subject in public.


No problem.

From what the description you've given us is, it seems to me that you're MtF (male-to-female) transgender, and pansexual, so yeah, you'll be right at home in this thread. (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, though.)


----------



## Phantom

Hi, I'm Phantom, I like women. And am a woman. 


Wait, you guys knew that. 

Anywho, I got hugged by a person today. They were visiting the hospital and they were obviously trans, mtf. Pre-everything. Their ID still said a male name, but I noticed a friend call her by a female name and pronoun. I had to ask for ID. They were obviously a little embarassed by it. When I handed it back to her, and the visitor pass, I said to have a nice day 'm'am'. When she left she saw me on patrol and asked if she could hug me. I let her hug me, and she said she was nervous that I would call her out on it or something. I just explained I was LGBT too and understood. 

All in all, mission accomplished. It could have ended up messy, but it all worked out.


----------



## kyeugh

Orchestra said:


> I found this place while trying to search for something. Coincidence, or stroke of luck?
> 
> Either way, hello everyone... I'm not exactly sure how to introduce myself here, or even if I'm allowed to. Regardless, I'll get to the meat and potatoes.
> 
> I am a male. Physically, at least. I have never been happy with it, and for the longest time, I have wished to be female. As for sexuality, I like everyone. Male, female, trans, and if it were possible, the genderless. I am into a person for their personality (Looks, intelligence and such are just icing on the cake
> 
> ... Sorry if this is a random, scatterbrained opening. I am simply unsure of what to say/do here. This is my first time talking about this particular subject in public.


Hey, this is news!  And actually really cool. If it's any help, I'm a non-binary panromantic/asexual, which I guess is kind of a mouthful. 

Phantom, that's… super cool. How often do things like this happen to you?  It's certainly because I live in a military base, I think, but I've never seen anyone trans* outside.


----------



## Orchestra

Ether's Bane said:


> From what the description you've given us is, it seems to me that you're MtF (male-to-female) transgender, and pansexual, so yeah, you'll be right at home in this thread. (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, though.)


No, you're right on the money there.



Dazel said:


> Hey, this is news!  And actually really cool. If it's any help, I'm a non-binary panromantic/asexual, which I guess is kind of a mouthful.


*Goes to look up Panromantic* I feel terrible that I didn't know that. Yet there are still many I don't know, so it was bound to happen.

Hey there Dazel. Fancy running into you here. And that sounds like something I might be, actually. I do enjoy affection and closeness, yet I don't really care about anything sexual (Ignoring the fact that I have both a dirty mouth and mind. *Chuckles*) That is pretty cool though. I knew you were something, but I didn't know what exactly.


----------



## kyeugh

Orchestra said:


> Hey there Dazel. Fancy running into you here. And that sounds like something I might be, actually. I do enjoy affection and closeness, yet I don't really care about anything sexual (Ignoring the fact that I have both a dirty mouth and mind. *Chuckles*)


Presumably you mean asexuality, in which case, yeah.  It still confuses a lot of my friends because, "I don't believe you.  How can you not want to sex??  You're a male adolescent, clearly you want in." Which is just... generally shitty, I guess.  It always struck me as odd how insensitive people who ~claim to be allies or accepting~ can actually be.


Orchestra said:


> That is pretty cool though. I knew you were something, but I didn't know what exactly.


Ha, oh, I'm something all right...


----------



## Orchestra

Dazel said:


> Presumably you mean asexuality, in which case, yeah.  It still confuses a lot of my friends because, "I don't believe you.  How can you not want to sex??  You're a male adolescent, clearly you want in." Which is just... generally shitty, I guess.  It always struck me as odd how insensitive people who ~claim to be allies or accepting~ can actually be.


Asexuality or Panromantic (Unless the description I found for it was wrong) And yes, I'm sick of that too. Friends, and even family seem to think just because you're a male, you only think with the head between your legs. That is their problem though. It'll get to you, sure. It gets to all of us, but the best you can do is shrug it off and move on. At least in the end, you know how you truly are. If they don't get it, it's their loss. 



> Ha, oh, I'm something all right...


Heh, I didn't mean anything bad by that. From how you talked about certain subjects, I figured you were at least gay, but asexual was certainly an interesting twist.


----------



## Dar

Dazel said:


> Presumably you mean asexuality, in which case, yeah.  It still confuses a lot of my friends because, "I don't believe you.  How can you not want to sex??  You're a male adolescent, clearly you want in." Which is just... generally shitty, I guess.  It always struck me as odd how insensitive people who ~claim to be allies or accepting~ can actually be.


My best friend is in the exact same boat as you (aside from the fact that she is biologically female) so I understand what you're going through. I've always found that asexuality is one of the most misunderstood orientations, which I've always found odd.


----------



## kyeugh

Dar said:


> My best friend is in the exact same boat as you (aside from the fact that she is biologically female) so I understand what you're going through. I've always found that asexuality is one of the most misunderstood orientations, which I've always found odd.


Yeah, you'd think it'd be the simplest.  Like, instead of "only this" or "only that," it's just "no."  I guess it's hard for more sexual people to understand, though, because... sex is super important to some people, apparently.


----------



## Gevaisa

Dazel said:


> Yeah, you'd think it'd be the simplest.  Like, instead of "only this" or "only that," it's just "no."  I guess it's hard for more sexual people to understand, though, because... sex is super important to some people, apparently.


I think it sort of makes sense, if you think about it. People don't have sex because they have a reason to have sex, they have sex because it's something they do instinctively. If you have that as one of your basic drives, someone telling you they don't have any inclination to have sex is akin to telling you that they don't have any inclination to eat, or sleep. The comparison does fall apart fairly quickly if you take it too literally, but the main reason people do both of those is instinctive. It's just not more or less the whole reason, like with sex.

This is all conjecture, admittedly, since I'm asexual myself. It's in line with what I've heard from not-asexual people, though.


----------



## Dar

Dazel said:


> Yeah, you'd think it'd be the simplest.  Like, instead of "only this" or "only that," it's just "no."  I guess it's hard for more sexual people to understand, though, because... sex is super important to some people, apparently.


I've had people who thought my friend could reproduce without anyone else.


----------



## Phantom

Dazel said:


> Phantom, that's… super cool. How often do things like this happen to you? It's certainly because I live in a military base, I think, but I've never seen anyone trans* outside.


Meh, just common sense I think. 

Actually, I could have gotten in trouble for that, which is why I'm saying how messy it could have been. She signed in under a female name. Her ID said a male name. She could, technically, be charged with using a fake name on an official document. I COULD have looked at the ID, noted what her friend called her, and looked at the paper, and denied her access because she failed to give proper ID. The fact that she was trans* was very obvious though, and I could see she looked worried when I asked for ID. Which is why I let it pass. Besides, I could still see she looked a bit like her photograph still. 

Another thing that could have happened is if it was another guard, they might not have done the same. They might have said she could not visit her friend. Or they might have called her out on the 'wrong name' issue. 

I live in the cities, so I run into it now and then. Since I've been working in the hospital I've run into these folks more often, but sadly this is mostly for psych holds. :/


----------



## Byrus

Posting this from a London hotel right now. I'm going to be admitted into hospital tonight at 6, and having surgery the next morning. I don't think I'll be able to post an update for a couple of days, since I need to keep my left arm elevated for at least 48 hours and I'll probably be in discomfort. So,um, yeah, I'm really hoping this turns out Alright! I'm nervous as hell, mostly just been reading and looking at youtube vids of cute animals to calm my nerves.


----------



## Momo(th)

Byrus said:


> Posting this from a London hotel right now. I'm going to be admitted into hospital tonight at 6, and having surgery the next morning. I don't think I'll be able to post an update for a couple of days, since I need to keep my left arm elevated for at least 48 hours and I'll probably be in discomfort. So,um, yeah, I'm really hoping this turns out Alright! I'm nervous as hell, mostly just been reading and looking at youtube vids of cute animals to calm my nerves.


Be sure to avoid caffeine too unless you want a nervous breakdown, and good luck dude!


----------



## Byrus

Posting from hospital right now. Surgery went well. Holy shit, the first four days were really brutal though. I've never been through anything like this. Made the other surgery seem like a cakewalk. So sore. Would never recommend this operation except as a last resort for really severe dysphoria. Two days bedrest is nowhere near as. Fun as it sounds


----------



## shy ♡

Wah Byrus I hope you feel better soon ;n; I'm glad the surgery went well though! I know surgery recovery from top-surgery was no fun so I can't imagine going through that... Take lots of pain killers and watch some cute movies and eat some chocolate...


----------



## Jolty

Byrus said:


> Posting from hospital right now. Surgery went well. Holy shit, the first four days were really brutal though. I've never been through anything like this. Made the other surgery seem like a cakewalk. So sore. Would never recommend this operation except as a last resort for really severe dysphoria. Two days bedrest is nowhere near as. Fun as it sounds


hope you're feeling better soon man, glad it went well though!


----------



## Byrus

Thanks, guys, I really appreciate it. This surgery really took a lot out of me. I don't think I fully anticipated how difficult it would be. My lack of independence at the moment is making me feel very anxious and vulnerable, but I'm slowly getting there. 

My physiotherapist was very helpful, and was talking to me about how she'd dealt with trans guys having this surgery for just over ten years. It was very interesting and she really helped me feel more at ease.     

I flew back home on Sunday and am keeping in touch with the London docs by email. These annoying fucking staples are going to be removed tomorrow by my gp, so hopefully that will give me more mobility.

Also, dear god, absolutely no one in London could understand my accent. It was very frustrating! All the nurses were friendly and polite though, which definitely helped. One of the doctors that came by was northern irish, so everyone else was asking him for tips on how to decipher my accent. (One person thought I was Scottish)


----------



## Knuddeluff

I feel I've been sinking further and further into the gay stereotype over the past few months.

Like, right now, I'm drinking a glass of red wine, listening to Taylor Swift on repeat, while I burn a scented candle.


----------



## Flora

Hi friends!!! With a lot of help from my mom (who's known for a couple weeks now) I came out as bi to my dad and he took it super well!!!


----------



## Knuddeluff

Flora said:


> Hi friends!!! With a lot of help from my mom (who's known for a couple weeks now) I came out as bi to my dad and he took it super well!!!


Holy crap congrats!

It's one of the hardest things to do, it's great that you got over that hurdle! :>


----------



## Ether's Bane

Flora said:


> Hi friends!!! With a lot of help from my mom (who's known for a couple weeks now) I came out as bi to my dad and he took it super well!!!


Good for you!

I had to come out my dad twice - the first time, he took it as "it's just a phase", but last year, I tried again, and he "got it", so to speak.


----------



## opaltiger

Knuddeluff said:


> I feel I've been sinking further and further into the gay stereotype over the past few months.
> 
> Like, right now, I'm drinking a glass of red wine, listening to Taylor Swift on repeat, while I burn a scented candle.


That describes most of my nights. It just means you're sinking into the _excellent_ stereotype.


----------



## Dar

Flora said:


> Hi friends!!! With a lot of help from my mom (who's known for a couple weeks now) I came out as bi to my dad and he took it super well!!!


Similar situation with my dad, though I'm pretty sure he just said he's okay with it because he felt like he had to. He tends to be pretty homophobic.


----------



## Sanqui

So, I'm going to post in here because it might brighten me up a bit.

Hi!  For context, I'm generally male, and I happen to be bisexual (or pansexual if you will, I generally use the simpler term).  It's something I've only ever mentioned in a few places on the internet.  And I'm in this conflict.  On one hand, I'm totally happy with it and I'd actually like more people to know.  But, on the other hand, the thought of people I know in real life knowing actually makes me slightly..  nauseous.  For no good reason, either: I know everybody (everybody worth keeping) would be fine with it and it would for sure make me happier.  But I have no idea how to go about letting people know.  I always just imagine the most literal case of letting people know - going around telling people - which is just _why would I do that_.

I just don't know.  I wouldn't even want to be subtle about it.  I want people to know, but I don't want to share.  Does that make sense?  I hope it does, because it's all I can muster...

Thanks for caring~


----------



## shy ♡

Sanky said:


> So, I'm going to post in here because it might brighten me up a bit.
> 
> Hi!  For context, I'm generally male, and I happen to be bisexual (or pansexual if you will, I generally use the simpler term).  It's something I've only ever mentioned in a few places on the internet.  And I'm in this conflict.  On one hand, I'm totally happy with it and I'd actually like more people to know.  But, on the other hand, the thought of people I know in real life knowing actually makes me slightly..  nauseous.  For no good reason, either: I know everybody (everybody worth keeping) would be fine with it and it would for sure make me happier.  But I have no idea how to go about letting people know.  I always just imagine the most literal case of letting people know - going around telling people - which is just _why would I do that_.
> 
> I just don't know.  I wouldn't even want to be subtle about it.  I want people to know, but I don't want to share.  Does that make sense?  I hope it does, because it's all I can muster...
> 
> Thanks for caring~


Hum, what part do you want to tell them? That you're male, or pan/bi (which would you wanna say?)? 

I... only have experience with one really... and it was super-hard... But I know it's much easier with friends and siblings than parents, ahaha. So I'd suggest telling close friends first and that'll make you feel more confident in general, having people you're close to who know. And you'll get some experience.


----------



## Sanqui

pathos said:


> Hum, what part do you want to tell them? That you're male, or pan/bi (which would you wanna say?)?
> 
> I... only have experience with one really... and it was super-hard... But I know it's much easier with friends and siblings than parents, ahaha. So I'd suggest telling close friends first and that'll make you feel more confident in general, having people you're close to who know. And you'll get some experience.


Ah, just the latter.  (I'm biologically male, so that isn't a problem).  And..  Oof, I really don't wanna straight up tell anybody.  It's hard.  But still, it might go wonderfully.  I'll have to think about it more.

Oh, by the way, I read back into the thread a small bit.  So many success stories, that's great!  Congrats Flora, Byrus, and others!


----------



## shy ♡

Sanky said:


> Ah, just the latter.  (I'm biologically male, so that isn't a problem).  And..  Oof, I really don't wanna straight up tell anybody.  It's hard.  But still, it might go wonderfully.  I'll have to think about it more.
> 
> Oh, by the way, I read back into the thread a small bit.  So many success stories, that's great!  Congrats Flora, Byrus, and others!


Ah... maybe write a letter and give it to them? Sometimes I find it easier to say things in writing than face to face... Or you could, idk, bring up the subject and see how they react to it, like just talk about ... characters on tv who're gay/bi/etc., or laws about it being passed, or something...


----------



## Flora

HI GUYS SORRY FOR BUMPING SLIGHTLY BUT I UH

DID A LOT OF THINKING AND NOW I'M KINDA CONFUSED



Spoiler: gender musings I guess



For me personally, gender isn't really something I think about terribly often? I do prefer she/her pronouns and I'm cool with being called a girl but other than that it just....doesn't really come to mind all that often?

It's exceptionally perplexing because I know how I think about things is kinda atypical a lot of the time, so I don't know if this is generally how cis people think about gender or just how _I personally_ think about gender and it's just. confusing. I really don't know.

It's something that I'd thought about for like five seconds a few times but I did a lot of thinking today and it just ended in me being _really confused_


----------



## Crazy Linoone

Flora said:


> It's exceptionally perplexing because I know how I think about things is kinda atypical a lot of the time, so I don't know if this is generally how cis people think about gender or just how _I personally_ think about gender and it's just. confusing. I really don't know.


DON'T LET SOCIAL NORMS GET YOU DOWN *shakes fist*

For many cis people, it's less of "I feel really strongly <gender>" and more of "I don't mind being <gender> and I don't really want to change so...". 

cis friend: "Well, I was born with <insert-sex-here> parts, and people treated me as if I'm <gender society associates with with said parts> while I was growing up. I've never really thought about it, but I'm okay with who I am, so that's that." 

other cis friend who recently learned about the difference between sex and gender: "I don't understand what you mean that gender isn't based on societal norms? If gender-differentiating societal norms don't exist, I don't think there would be any differences between people of different genders. Everyone would just not have any gender?? Anyhow, I identify with <my gender> because of my experiences, even though I don't fit with a lot of the gender stereotypes, so that's that." 

other other cis friend: "well I thought about gender a lot after learning about it. I hate a lot of the societal standards put on my gender and the assumptions people make. I really don't think these assumptions fit me at all, but I decided that I like identifying as this gender, so that's that." 

agender friend: "well I thought about gender a lot after learning about it... I feel really icky about all the social standards people put on my gender and the assumptions people make. I really don't think these assumptions fit me at all, and I don't really think the other gender options fit me either, so that's that." 

other agender friend: "I don't know what's going on man, gender is hard." 

ANYHOW my point is, gender is all over the place. Just kinda ... go with the flow, man. Don't worry about it. It's nice to have a neat label to describe yourself, but it's okay if it doesn't sort itself out. 

Food for thought:
Don't think about whether you're "okay" with she/her. Would you be happier if people used different pronouns for you? If some aliens came and shoot magic beams that wiped away all societal norms, associations, assumptions, etc etc about gender and gave everyone the same-looking bits, what gender would you be?


----------



## Jolty

Flora said:


> ]For me personally, gender isn't really something I think about terribly often? I do prefer she/her pronouns and I'm cool with being called a girl but other than that it just....doesn't really come to mind all that often?
> 
> It's exceptionally perplexing because I know how I think about things is kinda atypical a lot of the time, so I don't know if this is generally how cis people think about gender or just how _I personally_ think about gender and it's just. confusing. I really don't know.


that is pretty much the standard "cis way of thinking about gender" for lack of a better expression

if you weren't cis you'd very likely have feelings that something was not quite right




as for the identifying out of male/female because society's expectations of gender then i've never understood how being like "i don't like society saying i should do x because i am y, therefore I AM NO LONGER Y NOW NOBODY CAN TELL ME WHAT TO DO" 
y'know instead of like
doing whatever the fuck you want /anyway/ and trying to break those stupid standards


----------



## Flora

Jolty said:


> that is pretty much the standard "cis way of thinking about gender" for lack of a better expression
> 
> if you weren't cis you'd very likely have feelings that something was not quite right





Crazy Linoone said:


> DON'T LET SOCIAL NORMS GET YOU DOWN *shakes fist*
> 
> For many cis people, it's less of "I feel really strongly <gender>" and more of "I don't mind being <gender> and I don't really want to change so...".


Ah, okay! That makes a lot of sense.

In other QUILTBAG news, I guess, my school was supposed to have an "LGBT forum" discussing how non-cis non-straight students are treated, but the moderator wound up canceling it and from the sounds of it he was very likely pressured into doing so; my friend (who's a writer for our school paper) was writing an article and interviewed some people about it and they really really avoided the topic and there were some...not-great things said.

The article was super-impartial about the whole situation (and props to him, because he made it very clear to me separately that he was _not happy_) but there seems to be a lot of people who are incredibly disappointed about it, _especially_ since the article also mentioned that they won't allow an LGBT club because it would exclude straight/cis kids OR a gay-straight alliance because...I don't know? I don't think anyone knows.

Catholic schools, man, what are you gonna do.

(Actually this was what I was IMMEDIATELY greeted with when I met my friends for formal: "HEY RACHEL DID YOU KNOW THERE WAS AN LGBT FORUM PLANNED?")


----------



## Jolty

this thread hardly ever gets updated but i am hype so posting basically everywhere i am out on: top surgery on monday hoooly shit


----------



## Byrus

Congrats! I hope all goes well. 

If you don't mind me asking; do you know who your surgeon will be? I'm curious if gendercare on the NHS sources all its surgeons in London or elsewhere.


----------



## Jolty

Mr Caddy in Sheffield

see like. i was referred to him back in december, but then in february he was off sick for ages
so i got referred to Mr Kneeshaw in Hull (who i actually saw 2 days ago lmao) but then mr caddy came back and gave me an appointment in june and since hearing nothing since i phoned up his secretary today to ask what's going on and she was like "oh he has a free theatre slot on monday the 13th do you want it" and i was like hell yeah i do SO.

yeah both of the surgeons i have met are in yorkshire and my gender clinic is in nottingham (the midlands). they also told me there's another surgeon in manchester but there's like, 3 or 4 in london or something
this is just for chest reconstruction though, i don't know of any SRS surgeons outside london :v


----------



## Momo(th)

Glad that you're finally gonna get surgery, I can't wait to hear the results lol


----------



## Flora

Flora said:


> HI GUYS SORRY FOR BUMPING SLIGHTLY BUT I UH
> 
> DID A LOT OF THINKING AND NOW I'M KINDA CONFUSED
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: gender musings I guess
> 
> 
> 
> For me personally, gender isn't really something I think about terribly often? I do prefer she/her pronouns and I'm cool with being called a girl but other than that it just....doesn't really come to mind all that often?
> 
> It's exceptionally perplexing because I know how I think about things is kinda atypical a lot of the time, so I don't know if this is generally how cis people think about gender or just how _I personally_ think about gender and it's just. confusing. I really don't know.
> 
> It's something that I'd thought about for like five seconds a few times but I did a lot of thinking today and it just ended in me being _really confused_


_Oh this is fucking funny._ apologies for the hardcore thread necromancy but, look, quiltbag stuff is always relevant

Long story short, for those of you who aren’t on the telegram: my (blessedly bi, I’m serious, he concluded that he was bi and destroyed his metaphorical closet a week later) boyfriend left a dress shirt at my house! I tried it on as a gag! Had Gender Thoughts that were originally just Gender Presentation Fuckery and then evolved into genuine gender confusion! Might not be a cis girl after all! Amazing. Good job 2015 flora you were truly ahead of your time, except not because you couldn’t (and still can’t) word things to save your life. At least I can think about this without getting a headache now.


----------



## Flora

Flora said:


> _Oh this is fucking funny._ apologies for the hardcore thread necromancy but, look, quiltbag stuff is always relevant
> 
> Long story short, for those of you who aren’t on the telegram: my (blessedly bi, I’m serious, he concluded that he was bi and destroyed his metaphorical closet a week later) boyfriend left a dress shirt at my house! I tried it on as a gag! Had Gender Thoughts that were originally just Gender Presentation Fuckery and then evolved into genuine gender confusion! Might not be a cis girl after all! Amazing. Good job 2015 flora you were truly ahead of your time, except not because you couldn’t (and still can’t) word things to save your life. At least I can think about this without getting a headache now.


So update! I’m nonbinary! I’ve been pretty sure of this for like a week but I was constantly like “but what if I’m wrong” so only actually mentioned it last night to various people, exactly one of whom I know IRL!

I did tell my sister that I was thinking about gender, and she was kinda weird about it (“when I was doing gender thinking I concluded I was more comfortable as I am, but whatever helps your mental health...”), so I’m like...a bit hesitant to talk about it to my family now that I’m sure I’m nb, cause I don’t know how they’re gonna react and if it’s Weird I might puke, but my bf knows and has been an absolute gift so that helps


----------



## crime gardevoir

I'm genderfluid (but usually they/her) and pan.

I think it's something you can't really be wrong about- if you feel something about your gender, even vaguely, it's a feeling worth chasing. Even if you have mild gender dysphoria at most, finding where you feel best with gender and embracing it can bring a lot of happiness and comfort into your life that wasn't there before. The only real risks come from other people being shitty, and it's pretty unfulfilling (and even horrific) to let that dictate every aspect of your identity. Anecdotally there's rough patches that come with it, but they're worth the trouble in the end.

(also I don't know how hot of a take this is, but I think some thread necromancy is warranted- this forum is going a lot slower than it was when I was a teen, and that's not really going to get fixed unless people start posting again. Most threads have their last post months to years ago, and it seems like that's a problem that'd feed itself)


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

recently realized my bisexuality,
,

that's really all there is to say on the matter


----------



## Flora

once more, I revive the QUILTBAG club to talk about me being an idiot about gender

so the highlights of the past year, first off! I made a shitload of fandom friends who’ve only ever known me as chel the nonbinary icon, and that has been a Blessing, oh my god. I came out to my irl friends (who are all super chill, and one turned out to be agender so I am not the only nb icon!) and my family, who are still learning but they’re trying really hard and I appreciate it.

so! The stupidity! Back in March I was getting stupid antsy about my hair, because I hadn’t gotten it cut in awhile and quarantine started RIGHT when I was like “imma call to schedule a haircut” and I was full force ANGRY about it and it took me LITERALLY ASKING PEOPLE “hey can hair length be dysphoria-inducing” to be like, oh, this is dysphoria and I’m being stupid.(I got it cut, mom realized it was dysphoria real quick and was GUNG HO about chopping it off.)

so lately I’ve been like, debating the whole name thing, cause originally I started goin by Chel online to avoid getting found by coworkers et al but I found I really liked it, and especially when IRL folks use it (aforementioned agender friend exclusively calls me Chel now). but I don’t mind my legal name, you know? So I was like “is this a Name name or just a nickname or w/e. Until I remembered that there are a LOT of cis people who are like “my name’s fine but I like this better” and I’m not questioning THAT.

so, uh. That’s chel’s stupid gender hours.


----------



## IndigoClaudia

Nothing wrong with that. I kept meaning to revive this thread on my own. So i'm trans and i'm Bi and i Identify as Demi-girl so i'm about as confusing as i can get but it doesn't really matter as long as people call me she/her pronouns :D *Nervous Laughter*


----------



## serimachi

QUILTBAG  You know, as a 12 year old, I  think these forums were my first real interaction with people from what I would have considered "the outside world", both in that the culture was much more liberal and my hometown and family, but also people engaged with me like I don't think they'd typically engage with a twelve year old IRL (i.e. actually taking their ideas seriously and not taking pains not too sound harsh).

I have vague memories of joining and arguing _against_ gay marriage, which I'm sure I could find if I looked (but ew.) Users here argued me out of that notion, or at least really shook my resolve there and a lot of my more close-minded beliefs. (I also really, really looked up to Butterfree and hung on her every word, and now that I think about it, I wonder if I would have been an atheist if not for her blog posts. That never occurred to me before, and it's probably _true_, which blows my mind since "there's no god" seems like such an obvious fact of the universe nowadays.) So two years or so later, when I realized that I, myself, am gay, I think I can actually draw a direct line between the TCoD community and my young self's ability to not think it was something wrong or that I had something to hide. Who would've thought a Pokemon fan forum can have such an effect on one's life!


----------



## Herbe

since accepting myself as trans, i've thought i'm a straight guy, but turns out i might be bi as long as I don't have to be another guy's "girlfriend." when i was a kid, i'd get crushes on guys right up until we might date, at which point i was repulsed. couldn't figure out why. maybe this is it


----------



## Ys_

I'm confused, honestly, but not cis nor trans. Maybe more on the neutral area. Though at this point in my life I'm alright with being a female that doesn't present as too feminine.

Edit- If I think about it it's partly body dysphoria and partly I just don't feel comfortable with fitting the mold society has defined for what women are supposed to be like

Also thanks for the reacts :) <3


----------



## rari_teh

pretty much where i am tbh. i feel like gender is something i really don’t care about? i’d define myself as agender and pan


----------



## Herbe

oh update im 100% bisexual lmaoooo
(my bisexuality includes enbies, i'm kinda gender agnostic about it but i prefer the term bi over pan)


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

i still don't know the difference tbh all i know is that i can be attracted to damn near anyone


----------



## IndigoClaudia

i'm doing this weird questioning thing and i can't tell if im a girl or nonbianary.


----------



## qenya

Herbe said:


> (my bisexuality includes enbies, i'm kinda gender agnostic about it but i prefer the term bi over pan)


Same! I'm not a fan of being called pan because it feels - to me, at least - like it implies I experience attraction as being totally independent from gender, and that's not quite how it works. It's kinda difficult to articulate, but there is a qualitative difference between how I feel about dating (say) a guy vs a girl.

There's a great deal of fluidity, too - some days it's "help, everyone is hot", others I'm practically monosexual. And I certainly do experience attraction to non-binary people as well.

As far as gender goes, well, still figuring that one out.


----------



## Novae

personally I think pansexual is a bad term because 90% of the time I say it someone who thinks they're funny says "lol does that mean you're attracted to pans" and I want to hit them over the head


----------



## IndigoClaudia

lol i'm pan but i tell everyone i'm bi because of that exact same reason.


----------



## RedneckPhoenix

tbh the bi flag looks more aesthetically pleasing to me either way


----------



## storm

I'm sure I had a post in here on my old account but I'm too lazy to go looking

still aromantic asexual, though nowadays I'm a lot quieter about that For Unpleasant Reasons. but my gender is [handwave], I go by agender since that's easiest and also pleasingly makes me an aaa person. I used to be more dysphoric when I was growing up, but now my body is tolerable, so that's something. I'm in the closet at home, but out to my friends, and my friends and recent classes use a chosen name for me, so that's neat!


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## Novae

i too am ace aro! i'm not really quiet about it but there were slightly Unpleasant Reasons in the way I ended up essentially confirming it to myself

gender stuff is...no clue tbh. definitely am not cis and have been trying to slowly cut out he/him pronouns for about a month now? I think I prefer female pronouns to neutral ones but I do still think I'm some sort of non-binary/not fully trans idk


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## Vipera Magnifica

i'm ace (biromantic i suppose, though i considered myself aro ace for a time)


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## Vipera Magnifica

for me it's easier to just see bi and ace as two broad umbrellas and know i identify with both, though more strongly with the latter
gender and sexuality can fluctuate a lot and you can save yourself a lot of trouble by not trying to pigeonhole yourself too much


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## Vipera Magnifica




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## Stryke

I'm bi. I've been questioning for at least a couple of years now, but I finally started feeling confident in it a couple months ago. That's about all I have to say on the matter, really


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## Zero Moment

Wow I haven't posted in here since US States were still legalizing gay marriage. 
Anyways, I'm pretty fly for a bi guy. 
Any-anyways, a friend has been going through her online transition and it is _so. cute. _AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA


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## Vipera Magnifica

ZM you are such a sweetheart


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## IndigoClaudia

Ok i'm nonbinary now. No need to change pronouns :D


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## M&F

Zero Moment said:


> Wow I haven't posted in here since US States were still legalizing gay marriage.
> Anyways, I'm pretty fly for a bi guy.
> Any-anyways, a friend has been going through her online transition and it is _so. cute. _AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA


I respect her privacy but I also want to hear everything-


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## M&F

... oh huh, how was that the first I'm ever posting here, when I can't shut up about being trans to literally save my life

well, there you have it, I'm a gay trans girl who is in a queerplatonic relationship and sometimes thinks about possibly being on the asexual spectrum


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## Zero Moment

MampersandF said:


> Zero Moment said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow I haven't posted in here since US States were still legalizing gay marriage.
> Anyways, I'm pretty fly for a bi guy.
> Any-anyways, a friend has been going through her online transition and it is _so. cute. _AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
> 
> 
> 
> I respect her privacy but I also want to hear everything-
Click to expand...

So started trying out using fem pronouns and changed her nick to Lexi (cute name!), then got a pinkie pie avatar and her username switched to hot pink (cute!), and recently she's been posting about how much more happy she's been with all the changes (AAAAAAAAAAAAA)


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## IndigoClaudia

Fun story from first grade:

One time i was at a table with my friends talking about crushes and everyone asked me who my crush was. I was like "my best friends sibling" who was the same gender as me at the time. And then everyone was like "no you can't like people of the same gender" and i was kinda sad but then i decided to have a crush on someone of a different gender. Looking back i find it funny that my first crush was bi as hell.


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## Novae

ok this happened a week ago but i was talking with a friend and they brought up that I might be demiromantic and I agreed

so that happened! don't know if i'm gay or bi yet but leaning the latter and it probably doesn't really matter yet anyway


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## Ys_

Ys_ said:


> I'm confused, honestly, but not cis nor trans. Maybe more on the neutral area. Though at this point in my life I'm alright with being a female that doesn't present as too feminine.
> 
> Edit- If I think about it it's partly body dysphoria and partly I just don't feel comfortable with fitting the mold society has defined for what women are supposed to be like
> 
> Also thanks for the reacts :) <3


Yeah, this is still pretty accurate but I finally chose a label. I'm a gender-neutral female and I prefer not to be labeled as woman, girl, or lady. If necessary, I prefer just 'person'.

Hope you lovely people are doing great!


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## Momo(th)

Oh wow this brings back alot of memories. 

I'm still a trans woman, but recently I think I'm nonbinary ontop of that. She/they rings well with me.

Still pan tho lol


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## haneko

Gender: I really don’t care about it. I happen to be female, but I see myself as a person first, not a woman. 

Sexuality: I’ve long felt some sort of affinity for asexuality, although I strongly disagree with the model of romantic/sexual attraction many asexuals use. (I’m sure the model accurately describes some people’s experiences! They just don’t fit mine at all)

Romantic orientation: Guys, girls, and I can see myself liking non-binary people too. I see people as people first, so I don’t care about gender or anything like that.

I spent a lot of time thinking about what love is, and for me it’s just the same things you would feel for someone in friendship (care, affection, interest, etc) dialled up to eleven. Getting into a relationship has also corroborated my previous ideas about how to love and have a healthy relationship, although I’ve discovered it’s a _lot _harder than it sounds to maintain that standard (though it’s totally worth striving for).

That’s me posting past midnight.


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