# BtVS Club



## Dannichu

*THE BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER CLUB*









































*IMPORTANT NOTE:* If you're here because you're bored/wondering what "BtVS" stands for, you need to do the following things: 1) Go and watch some episodes of Buffy. 2) Revel in their brilliance. 3) Come back and post about how much you love it. I'm serious. Somewhere between five and seven TCoDers can't be wrong!

Look at me! I made a club! Pretty much to stop myself from spamming up the 'Shipping Club any further. Isn't it pretty?
Also, I have no idea why I have icons of Riley and Dawn, of all people, but none of Oz. Apparently, people just don't icon Oz.
(I totally don't have over 100 Tara icons)

...please don't expect me to make a members list or anything. Just pretend this is in the Entertainment section or something. None of this 'can I join' nonsense; just post away.

Oh! But you have to use the proper spoiler tags. I'm not sure how the spoilery thing's gonna work, though; anything beyond series 2, and then we'll advance it as people watch more?

Uuuh, loooking at where we left off on the 'Shipping Club, we were discussing Faith and how much we dis/like her, people appearing in the credits, Spike's terrifying cheekbones, Willow's sexuality, how much I adore Tara (well, mostly that was just me) and even some 'shipping! Specifially Spike/Buffy and Willow/Xander. 

Questions? Comments?


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## Harlequin

Hey, Danni. Did I ever tell you I would totally have sex with you if you weren't a girl? No? Well, uh... I just did. BtVS <333333

Spike/Angel. NEEDS MORE. Seriously. NEEDS MORE ANGEL/SPIKE. (there was actually a Buffy day-dream in the comics about that...)

I knew about Dawn in advance, but when she happened I was like "...:(" ALSO

ANYA. I fucking love Anya. <3

omg and and and and and

the last episode

was such a powerful episode

I was like. HELL YES. EMPOWERMENT. SISTERHOOD. etc. (and then I felt left out, since I'm not a part of the sisterhood :()


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## Minish

Yaaaaaaaay :DD
Oh God, those avatars made me snort with laughter. XD

Furthering on what Butterfree was saying about Willow/Tara, I actually don't see chemistry between them at all. Another reason why I'm not fond of the ship. >_> I was expecting to really like it -- maybe my expectations were too high or something. I just... don't really see how the relationship between them came to be. Then again, judging from how Kennedy is supposed to be...

And wow, I still can't believe there are Buffy fans who genuinely don't like Spike, or who don't find him attractive. I didn't really like him in his first few appearances, mainly because he had such a ridiculous accent when James Marsters first played him. Since it seemed to be toned down deliberately when he was in non-rawr mode, I was a bit surprised when it started becoming less and less Cockney. Was it just because James couldn't or didn't want to play it, since Spike was originally meant to be a minor character?

Alsooo I loved the whole backstory to Spike and the other major vampires. Not even because I happen to like Spike and thus find it interesting, I actually find it all really well-developed. Especially during the flashbacks to the Boxer Rebellion and before Spike was a vampire, those sets were _beautiful_. I do wonder why Spike seemed like an even nicer version of himself during the show, seemed he'd already gained a soul -- speaking of which, I never really understood how he 'got a soul' in the first place. But I'd appreciate if no-one told me, since I already know there's something about a vampire getting a soul coming up soon. *got spoiled. Again!*

I really like the site I found today -- Critically Touched. Apart from the few spoilers I've got from it, I kind of walked into them, and each review is pretty spoiler-free if you don't look at the Foreshadowing sections. I LOVE the rating system used on it, and I'm surprised to see the only 'F' episodes are far away from S6 and S7, people tend to say they're the worst? 6 especially, anyway. Anyone a fan of this site? :D

...and am I the only one who not only rather liked Beer Bad, but didn't find I Robot, You Jane all that bad? @_@

And on what you said about Restless... I found it a bit too disconcerting at first to really like it, and of course confusing, but I'm starting to like it after reading an analysis on it. I just wish it hadn't been the last in the series, it was a clever place to put it but one I don't think was all that effective. What can I say, I like big finales...

*rambleramble!*


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## Butterfree

> Furthering on what Butterfree was saying about Willow/Tara, I actually don't see chemistry between them at all.


But they _do spells_ together!

Okay, so I haven't seen much (well, any) of the development of their relationship, but in the established-relationship episodes, I really feel it between them. Dunno what it is that does it, exactly.



> ...and am I the only one who rather liked Beer Bad, and didn't find I Robot, You Jane all that bad? @_@


I Robot, You Jane is hilarious. _There's a demon on the Internet!_ Mostly it's rather painful for anybody who has ever used an actual computer and dates horribly, but it was quite entertaining.

I've been flipping through the season 1 reviews on the site you linked to. I must admit to a certain fondness for Teacher's Pet, mostly because it's a Xander episode and I love Xander to bits. Well, I love everyone, but he is adorable. And I have a thing for cute innocent virgin guys being seduced by evil women. Shut up. <_<

Season two must download faster. D: Most of the episodes in the first half are at around 70-80% completed now.


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## Dannichu

Oh, Harle, our love can never be <3333

Isn't Spike/Angel hinted at a little quite a few times in Angel the Series? I've only seen a few episodes of it, and it's absolutely hilarious. I love how Angel just... mellows in his own series; I love him so much more when he's not all intense. 


Spoiler: The final episode



I love it so, so much when he comes back in Chosen to cheer Buffy on and when he finds out Spikes got a soul and he's all pouty and "Well I had one first!" - when I saw it first, having seen none of Angel, I was so shocked at him having a sense of humour and stuff!



The final episode was BRILLIANT. Although I really didn't like series 7 as a whole (I really enjoyed Him, Selfless, Storyteller and Chosen and that's about it), the epicness of the grand finale kinda made up for it.

I didn't know about Dawn before, and was very, very confused for the first few eps of series 5. Looking back at the foreshadowing, though, it was very cleverly done. In fact, the only thing that was spoiled for me was 



Spoiler: late series 6



Tara's death. After Joyce and Jenny's deaths, I was determined to keep an emotional distance from characters I knew would die because that way it might hurt less... but then she became my absolute character and when she died, I was depressed for about a week. Seriously.



Pssh; if you don't know by now that I _live _to collect amusing icons... X3

Guh, if you don't think W/T have chemisty, I really think you *did* miss something with Tara, and it's not just because _I_ love her so much. I mean, lots of people don't really start to like her till after Family after which she's a bit more open and confident, which makes sense, given how much her family secret must've hurt to keep inside or in series six once she recovers from her brain-suck with Glory she's a whole lot more confident, without losing her Tara-ness, but I loved her pretty much from the get-go, particularly when it's made so clear how much she adores Willow, especially in that one scene in New Moon Rising ("Do what makes you h-happy"). There's a Top 100 Buffy Moments list online that's utterly amazing (but you're not allowed to look at till you're done watching everything because it has MASSIVE SPOILERS (Harle, you can see it, here)), that mirrors my feelings exactly:



> We'd caught little bits and pieces of Tara up up to this point, but this was the first time we really got to see what kind of person she truly is. This entire scene is moving to watch, as Willow is clearly torn between Oz and Tara, and it's here that the audience finally gets to see why Tara (someone we know precious little about) is giving Oz (someone we've loved for years) such a run for his money -- she has the biggest gosh darned heart in the entire show. When Tara says she'll be there for Willow no matter what, you know it's true. It's killing her to think that it won't be her, but she genuinely wants Willow to choose whomever will make her happiest. Tara's love for our redhead is so strong that it nearly becomes a tangible thing here, and it makes it that much easier for us love her back.


If you didn't aww at it, YOU HAVE NO SOUL. D:

Also, re: "I don't see how the relationship between them came to be", if you've got a spare bunch of time, this is a pretty good fic about the developing relationship between them in s4. That's a fairly good fanfiction site, with a whole bunch of pairings, if you're interested. Beware of spoilers, though (as always).

Also, also: you should not mention it-who-begins-with-K. Boo. _Hisssss_. It's the most hated character in the fandom for a very good reason.

Yup, Spike wasn't meant to be a major character at all; fans liked him, so they brought him back and somehow he ended up being one of the most major character in the entire show. It's funny how stuff like that happens; Anya was meant to be a one-off demon, but Joss loved Emma so much he had to bring her back; Oz was supposed to be killed in place of 



Spoiler: s2



Jenny


, but fans liked him so much, they kept him alive; Joss wrote Doppelgangland purely because he loved VampWillow from The Wish... lots of the characters and how their stories play out were dictated by fans and writer's whims.

Guh, that site with the reviews is absolutely awesome; I've read a bunch and will probably be on here all night reading them all X3 
I especially love this, from the review of The Body:



> I've lost a loved relative and was there during the following hours after her death. What I experienced was unlike anything I'd ever experienced before in my life--this odd numbness where I couldn't feel, couldn't think, and felt like I was hearing people speak through an audio fog. To think that an episode of television could capture that unique feeling, and then convey it to complete perfection, seems like nonsense.


I couldn't agree more, and I'll say it again; it's the _best _episode of Buffy.

Aaaah, I'm reading the review of Dead Things and while I don't like some of the stuff in that episode, it *is* awesome, and in ways I'd never thought about before! So cool!
And aaaaaaah the reviewer shares my Tara!Love, especially in Older and Far Away. An average episode, made epic and memorable by my favourite character <333

Haha, the review of Restless sums up my thoughts completely, and reinforces what I said about it getting better every time you see it:



> This is a magnificent episode and is the most complex I've ever witnessed on television. The first time I saw it I had a mixture of confusion, awe, and intrigue. It wasn't until I rewatched "Restless" after I was finished with the series that I began to understand just how amazing this truly is. Since then, I've rewatched it countless times and each time I make a new connection or spot something I never noticed before.


Generally, the worst episodes are regarded to be: I Robot, You Jane, Beer Bad, Where The Wild Things Are, Go Fish and Bad Eggs, though, like I said, I think most of S7 is pretty average. It doesn't have any terrible episodes, but doesn't (in my mind, at least) have many that are particularly brilliant, either.

I really enjoyed the Top 10 list and, for the most part, agree with it. As a non-Spike fan, I wouldn't rate Fool For Love quite so high, and while I love Anya to bits, I wouldn't place Selfless second, either. I was very surprised to see Dead Things so high; as an episode, I never really thought that much about it, but it's actually really awesome. Needs more Hush, though ):

And, now Butterfree points it out, Teacher's Pet has some epic foreshadowing I never noticed before! Whoo!

My replies are far, far too long x.x


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## Harlequin

Dannichu said:


> Oh, Harle, our love can never be <3333
> 
> Isn't Spike/Angel hinted at a little quite a few times in Angel the Series? I've only seen a few episodes of it, and it's absolutely hilarious. I love how Angel just... mellows in his own series; I love him so much more when he's not all intense.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: The final episode
> 
> 
> 
> I love it so, so much when he comes back in Chosen to cheer Buffy on and when he finds out Spikes got a soul and he's all pouty and "Well I had one first!" - when I saw it first, having seen none of Angel, I was so shocked at him having a sense of humour and stuff!


:( <3

Well. I've not seen any of Angel (I *know* :() but I've heard that it's kind of hinted at that they've ... done stuff. Yeah. I want to see them doing stuff. :o 

That was a good scene, though! I need to watch more Angel.



> The final episode was BRILLIANT. Although I really didn't like series 7 as a whole (I really enjoyed Him, Selfless, Storyteller and Chosen and that's about it), the epicness of the grand finale kinda made up for it.


The finale was such a brilliant episode. I've said it before and I'll say it again: probably my favourite episode. I just loved the way Buffy was all SPEECH and the girls were all HELL YEAH and Willow was all :D.



> I didn't know about Dawn before, and was very, very confused for the first few eps of series 5. Looking back at the foreshadowing, though, it was very cleverly done. In fact, the only thing that was spoiled for me was
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: late series 6
> 
> 
> 
> Tara's death. After Joyce and Jenny's deaths, I was determined to keep an emotional distance from characters I knew would die because that way it might hurt less... but then she became my absolute character and when she died, I was depressed for about a week. Seriously.


I'd mostly forgotten about Dawn by the time she happened, and then I was like "...oh yeah." The first time I saw it, though, I was REALLY confused.



> Guh, if you don't think W/T have chemisty, I really think you *did* miss something with Tara, and it's not just because _I_ love her so much. I mean, lots of people don't really start to like her till after Family after which she's a bit more open and confident, which makes sense, given how much her family secret must've hurt to keep inside or in series six once she recovers from her brain-suck with Glory she's a whole lot more confident, without losing her Tara-ness, but I loved her pretty much from the get-go, particularly when it's made so clear how much she adores Willow, especially in that one scene in New Moon Rising ("Do what makes you h-happy"). There's a Top 100 Buffy Moments list online that's utterly amazing (but you're not allowed to look at till you're done watching everything because it has MASSIVE SPOILERS (Harle, you can see it, here)), that mirrors my feelings exactly:


I liked Tara. She was refreshing. I especially liked Once More, With Feeling. That was wonderful. And yeah I will look at that promptly!





> If you didn't aww at it, YOU HAVE NO SOUL. D:
> 
> Also, re: "I don't see how the relationship between them came to be", if you've got a spare bunch of time, this is a pretty good fic about the developing relationship between them in s4. That's a fairly good fanfiction site, with a whole bunch of pairings, if you're interested. Beware of spoilers, though (as always).


Well. They had that whole magic thing, didn't they? They were like "OH YEAH LET'S DO MAGIC" (which TOTALLY wasn't a euphemism for "let's have hot lesbian sex).



> Also, also: you should not mention it-who-begins-with-K. Boo. _Hisssss_. It's the most hated character in the fandom for a very good reason.


I like her! :( She gets better in the season eight comics. Although the comics are a bit WTF. (Dawn gets turned into a giant, a centaur... Willow can fly, Buffy and the Slayers rob banks, Giles tries to get Faith to assassinate one of the non-Slayer slayers...



> Yup, Spike wasn't meant to be a major character at all; fans liked him, so they brought him back and somehow he ended up being one of the most major character in the entire show. It's funny how stuff like that happens; Anya was meant to be a one-off demon, but Joss loved Emma so much he had to bring her back; Oz was supposed to be killed in place of
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: s2
> 
> 
> 
> Jenny
> 
> 
> , but fans liked him so much, they kept him alive; Joss wrote Doppelgangland purely because he loved VampWillow from The Wish... lots of the characters and how their stories play out were dictated by fans and writer's whims.


And do you know what? I am so, so glad he included Spike and Anya. Anya was such a brilliant character. I loved her so much. She was one of my favourites. :( And SPIKE. Don't even get me started on Spike. 

(Also, for you lesbinims out there: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4r41vPTF8k&NR=1 It's not Buffy-related but you'll see why I linked when you listen to it. It fits so well!)


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## Minish

...I would quote bits of your post, Danni, but I'm terrified of spoiling myself even more. XD I know about so many upcoming deaths that I keep telling myself I probably know everything by now, and then I'll find another one and just hate myself. XD

I'm really starting to love the website I linked now. :D I was really hoping there'd be a site like this somewhere, and the reviewer likes Spike, so I don't have to feel too guilty reading the review for Fool of Love (probably one of my favourite episodes of any show, _ever_). And not only that, but he seems to like every character there IS, and is very thorough and unbiased. And have you seen those massive whole series reviews? A big analysis of how the series affected every single main character. <3 And the series itself of course, and I'm going to say again that I adore the score system!

And he likes series 5 as much as me~! It doesn't get enough love, really. ;_;

I seriously cannot wait for my next Buffy. >_> It should be the last -- I guess the writer's strike is affecting it, they were supposed to arrive on the 2nd at the earliest, so I guess I can't complain too much... I just remember series 2 coming REALLY fast and miss that. X3 I bought all the VHS tapes (thank God for my old TV with a built-in video player <3) but for series 7 I decided to buy the DVD instead, despite the price. I felt the show deserved it. XD


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## PK

Danni, you already know of my love for buffy.


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## Keltena

*lurks*

I, uh. Don't know what to talk about. ;o;


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## Dannichu

From what little I've seen, Angel is goooood. The characters aren't as lovable as those on Buffy, but from what I've heard, the storyline is better - general consensus is that while Buffy went a little downhill in seasons 6 and 7, Angel just got better and better.

Plus, there's an episode where Angel gets turned into a Sesame-Street-style puppet. It's _hilarious_.

I _loved_ the music in the final episode so much. It sounds right like something off Lord of the Rings. It made everything so intense I think I nearly passed out when I watched it for the first time X3

The musical episode is so, so amazing. It's so fantastic that they made it sound so good with a writer with pretty much no musical-writing experience, actors who weren't hired for their singing (poor little Alyson), and only two outstanding singers among the lot (ASH and Amber). 
The OM,WF soundtrack is _by far_ the most played album on my WMP. I think I've played The Mustard Song about 150 times X3

Hehe, the "Magic=Sex" metaphor is hilarious. It's brilliant and cleverly done when it actually happens (particularly the "Big Flaming O" in Who Are You? and the scene that Joss himself describes as "pornographic" in Once More, With Feeling), but it's also pretty funny when the characters draw attention to it (Xander in Restless: "Sometimes I think about two girls doing a spell together... then I do a spell by myself."), but I never quite know where magic stops being gay sex and is meant to represent *actual* magic.

For example! 



Spoiler: Family (s5)



When my friend watched Family, she assumed that Tara's dad hated her for doing magic, while I totally thought that he hated her for being a lesbian, especially with the scene in her dorm room where he's telling her he'd hoped she'd outgrown the "phase" and says something like "You keep out all these _toys_ just to annoy me.", holding up a, uh, rather phallic-shaped crystal on the word "toys".



Also, 



Spoiler: mid s6



it annoyed some people (myself included) that during series 6, magic (which had always represented Willow and Tara's love and sexual connection) suddenly became something dark, addictive and dangerous, and some people have read into Willow's magic addiction as a metaphor for an addiction to sex (which is rather horrifyingly supported by her going to Rack).



On a lighter note, have a hilarious (spolier free!) macro on the subject.

I've only read a couple of the comics and yeah, found them pretty WTF-ish. I was deeply, deeply angered by (MASSIVE 



Spoiler: for the comic AND show



Joss bringing Warren back, albeit skinless and gross-looking. Why the hell does he bring back pretty much _every single character_ except the ones I really love (Jenny, Tara, Anya)?? This is especially outrageous when one considers that lots of the characters he does bring back were ready to die at their point of death (Buffy, Spike), while the three mentioned above were all ripped apart from their loved ones in a moment of unexpected violence D:
...what do you mean, "bitter"?



Anya was abolutely fantastic. I really loved how much her character grew from her introduction, her arc pretty much completing with Selfless in series 7. Also, Anya's speeches have the capacity to reduce me to a blubbering wreck. I've mentioned it before, but OH GOD, that rant she gives in The Body ;~;
And the one in End of Days, about humans "blundering through life until they die. Which they KNOW is coming, yet every single one of them is surprised when it happens to them." God, I adore her <333

Hehe, that song's hilarious X3

Guh, I'm sorry for all my spoilers. Yeeeeah, it's probably best not to quote any of my spoiler-ful posts (especially not this one). 

Yeah, I noticed how the reviewer seems to like every single characters (even Dawn!), and I think that's pretty cool; it annoys me when things like reviews and recaps have horrendous character bias, even against a character I dislike, because all the hatred and bile seems so unnessesary. Plus, I really wish I did utterly love all the characters; imagine how much fun she show would be if I loved everyone as much as I love Tara and Giles!

The review system is fun, but a little too biased in favour of advancing the plot/characters. Okay, I'm only saying that because he complains about the middle scene in Tabula Rasa (series 6), which is one of my absolute favourite scenes in Buffy, ever (in fact, the only scene I can think of that beats it is Giles' explanation of the Gentlemen in Hush, which nearly makes me cry laughing every time), and while it doesn't serve the plot in any way, it doesn't _need_ to, because it's just brilliant and hilarious in its own right.

Which Buffy are you waiting on now? Have you seen S6 yet?

Guh; I found the entirety of Angel the Series on VHS in a charity shop the other day for £20 and I was so, so tempted, but videos just take up so much room and can be of such dodgy quality... I'll just wait till I win the lottery and then buy the DVDs :3



PK BLUE said:


> Danni, you already know of my love for buffy.


I know I do; you're here to celebrate your love with everyone else, dammit! :D



Salamander said:


> I, uh. Don't know what to talk about. ;o;


Umm... Open question: *Who is/are your favourite non-main character/s?*
("main" here meaning "character to have at some point appeared in the credits, here including the Core Four, Cordy, Angel, Oz, Riley, Spike, Anya, Tara, Dawn and _I think_ Faith?". I think I just had a Lemony Snicket moment.)

Mine would have to be Jenny, Ethan (there's never been a bad Ethan-episode), Harmony, Joyce, Clem (I know he annoys some people, but I really like him) and 



Spoiler: S7



I do like Andrew, but only in S7, but I hate myself for liking him because in S6 he was a co-conspiritor in murder, attempted rape, and he adored the bastard that killed my favourite character.


 And, of course, Vamp Willow <33333


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## Minish

Argh, Angel for £20 sounds so damn good. XD I so totally wish I could visit that charity shop... I'll probably end up buying all of Angel on VHS soon anyway.

I know I'm not directly replying to much in your post, but yeah, not gonna quote. But it was very interesting. XP All your Buffy-related posts are! :3

My favourite non-mains... I'm not sure. I wouldn't say I'm hugely fond of Joyce, mainly because I thought it was weird how she suddenly stood up to Snyder early in the series. The line "I think she's trying to say 'Na na na na na!'" was awesome but I just think she went from a careful, good-behaviour kind of mum kind of fast. Especially as she tends to be rather polite, except when she really needs to be authoritative like when Spike locked everyone in the school and she was stuck with Snyder and some other teachers. Especially when I think about how my headteacher would react if MY mum did that. X3

I don't think Faith ever appears in the credits, but yeah, she's pretty much a main character anyway. It's too tough! ;~; I like Ethan as a character, but that's kind of merged with me liking seeing Giles punching him, so yeah. XD In a good-for-the-show way I like him. I guess I'm going to have to go with Jenny, though during her first few appearances I really didn't like her all that much. I liked her a lot more when she distanced herself from Giles, needing time, I thought that was very realistic and appreciated her character more from then on. I like Drusilla even though she's completely messed up, and Harmony for being absolutely adorable in a half-evil sort of way, heh. Only after she became a vampire though. Her banter with Spike was absolutely _awesome_.

Query; I've ordered 5-2, 6-1, 6-2 and 7 full DVD, and annoyingly 6-1 and 6-2 both arrived today. So now I have to wail every time I look at it, wanting to watch more and especially see Once More, With Feeling... would it be terrible for me to just start watching 6-1 now? I have no way of knowing when 5-2 will arrive, but probably in the next few days so I might not even get past a quarter of the series. I already know Buffy dies, are there any more REALLY MAJOR things in 5-2 that should make me wait? I sort of know the gist of what happens in 5-2, and I will watch it when it arrives, it's just that... well, I wanna watch some Buffy _now_. X3


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## Dannichu

Okay, I'm *so* glad you think my posts are interesting, because once I start I just can't seem to stop and then it all ends up being a big WALL OF TEXT. :3

I agree that Joyce's character jumped around quite a bit. I haven't seen the early seasons in quite a while (I remember her being fairly cool in School Hard - the S2 episode with Spike's introduction), and the only episodes with lots of Joyce I know really well are Band Candy, where she's not exactly in-character (but if you don't love her there's something wrong with you); Amends (s2), where she and Buffy (and eventually Faith) celerate Christmas together is really sweet; Lover's Walk (s3) where she and Spike have a cup of tea and then Angel comes and she won't let him in and then Spike pretends to bite her (a la the Spike icon at the top of the page) and, again, if that scene didn't make you die laughing there's something wrong with you; Earshot (s3), where she's a fairly good mother, worrying about Buffy over all else ("I keep wondering if I'm hurting her with my thoughts") but isn't much help... and her whole arc in series 5 



Spoiler: s5



where she's sick, up to, of course, The Body


I remember not liking her so much in the early seasons, but in the absence of any other reasoning, I'd love her for a) telling Willow and Tara how "sometimes you feel like giving up on men altogether", and b) aaaaaall the Band Candy refrences (Earshot, Restless, The Body and probably more).



> I liked her a lot more when she distanced herself from Giles, needing time, I thought that was very realistic and appreciated her character more from then on.


I *really* think you'll like Tara in S6.
(if you don't, I'll cry)

I love Ethan, not so much as an intereating character, but just because he's so, so funny (that scene in A New Man where Giles leaves, he steps out from the shadows to gloat and then Giles hears him and comes back XDDD), and is a catalyst for funny ("You're my slayer so you gotta do what I tell you; punch 'im!"), so you pretty much _have_ to love him.

How did I forget about Druuuuu? Oh, she's brilliant. Granted, there's not too much to her character past "absolutely nuts", but she's so _good_ at it that it doesn't really matter X3

I don't think there are any _massively_ important things that would be spoiled if you started watching series 6 now (except the massive thing you mentioned - such a shame you spoiled yourself for that, though), though there are a couple of things that are _somewhat_ important and not knowing about them will either a) totally confuse you, or b) make it hard to understand why characters do certain things. Especially for Willow, who gets some _serious_ character development in the final few episodes of S5.

Plus, I uttely *adore* the S5 finale (it was written to be a conclusion to the whole series, and I think it would've worked if the whole show had stopped there - though that _would_ mean never having the musical ep), and even though you've spoiled yourself for certian events, as your favourite reviewer puts it: "It would be naive to say that the season was built for this. The entire _series_ up to this point was built for this.", and the Top 100 Buffy Moments list I love so much ranks the final few minutes of The Gift as #1... and I can't help but feel it would dampen the enjoyment if you didn't watch it as it was meant to be seen. It really is that fantastic.

...But it's totally up to you. X3


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## Butterfree

So the first half of season two finished downloading and I watched the first episode (I was going to save it all to watch with Shadey today, but my excuse was that I wanted to make sure the video quality was okay). And ohgod Willow/Xander. ;_; Stop torturing me, Joss! I know it is never to be and Willow turns out happily gay but she had ice cream on her nose and and and. And "If they hurt Willow, I'll kill you." Silly Xander, can't you see that Buffy just doesn't like you like that? D: That said, I kind of enjoyed her toying with him, in a heartbreaking "Aww no you can't be mean to poor silly little Xander like that!" way, which doesn't really make any sense but I generally make no sense so. And Giles choking Buffy was creepy. D: In a good way.

[/incoherent ramble]


----------



## Dannichu

D'awww~ I'm not a Will/Xander shipper at all, but that ice-cream-on-the-nose scene still gets me every time.

I don't know if you've noticed this, but series 2 is waaaaaay better than series 1.


----------



## PK

Butterfree said:


> So the first half of season two finished downloading and I watched the first episode (I was going to save it all to watch with Shadey today, but my excuse was that I wanted to make sure the video quality was okay). And ohgod Willow/Xander. ;_; Stop torturing me, Joss! I know it is never to be and Willow turns out happily gay but *she had ice cream on her nose* and and and. And "If they hurt Willow, I'll kill you." Silly Xander, can't you see that Buffy just doesn't like you like that? D: That said, I kind of enjoyed her toying with him, in a heartbreaking "Aww no you can't be mean to poor silly little Xander like that!" way, which doesn't really make any sense but I generally make no sense so. And Giles choking Buffy was creepy. D: In a good way.
> 
> [/incoherent ramble]


Oh, god, i remember that scene. I nearly EXPLODED from the cuteness and almost-kissness.


----------



## Dannichu

Uh, I was procrastinating on an essay and somehow came up with this; I know not everyone'll agree, but...

*My Top 10 Awww-worthy romantic scenes in Buffy:*
(complete with spoiler tags-a-mundo! (sorry about that)

10. 



Spoiler: 2.22



Buffy kissing Angel before stabbing him in Becoming, pt. 2


9. 



Spoiler: 7.16



Anya and Xander’s conversation on the couch in Storyteller


8. 



Spoiler: 5.22



Willow’s reaction to Tara’s mind being alright again (“I will always find you!”) in The Gift


7. 



Spoiler: sometime in S2



Oz giving Willow the Witch Pez (gah, can't remember the ep)


6. 



Spoiler: 4.18



Willow giving Tara the “extra flamey” candle at the end of New Moon Rising


5. 



Spoiler: 2.13



Willow asking Oz to be her date (“I said ‘date’!”) in Surprise


4. 



Spoiler: 2.1



The Willow/Xander “There’s ice cream on your nose” scene in When She Was Bad


3. 



Spoiler: 6.16



Anya’s “You make me feel safe and warm, so, I... get it now. I finally get love, Xander! I really do” speech in Hell’s Bells


2. 



Spoiler: 4.16



Willow and Tara’s “I am, you know?” “What?” “Yours.” exchange in Who Are You?


1. 



Spoiler: 6.18



The “Can we just skip it? Can you just be kissing me now?” scene with Tara going back to Willow in Entropy



Haven't seen the early seasons in a long time, so there's not too many scenes from early-in-the-series couples. And, uh, I'm a little biased.
Again, sorry for the spoilers ): I can't wait till you guys have seen everything so we don't have to use spoiler tags at all :3


----------



## Butterfree

I watched three more episodes of season two yesterday! It was weird to see Spike being introduced so early; I wasn't really expecting him until the fourth season or so (my general reaction when that blond guy stepped out of the car, in the freaky vampire-makeup I'd never seen on him, was "...oh my God, is that _Spike_?"). But man, is he fun. It's odd to see him just being a vampire and killing people rather than raging about the chip in his head or lusting after Buffy, but he is just so much more entertaining to watch than the silly Master and the Anointed One (I laughed way more than I ought to have at "the Annoying One"). Season two is looking promising. :D

And you weren't kidding; Drusilla be craaaazy.

The Inca mummy episode was kind of corny, but hey, it has Xander falling in love with some twisted supernatural being. And oh, wow, Oz. I really barely saw any of him when watching with Dannichu, but now I like him already. It takes a very special kind of guy to ignore all the stripperific hula girls in the room and be mesmerized by Willow in an Eskimo suit instead.


----------



## Harlequin

I love Dru. She's perfect. <3


----------



## Dannichu

OH MY GOD the eskimo suit is the CUTEST THING. 

Open question: Does anyone have any idea _at all_ what the purpose of the Anointed One even was? Again, I've not seen S1/2 in a while, but I don't have a clue what he was even there for.


----------



## Butterfree

I think the idea was just that the Anointed One would have great power and would help the Master rise. Except this Anointed One was a little kid who hadn't come to full power yet and was no match for Spike and a little sunlight.

For a more meta answer, I think Joss invented Spike, thought "This guy is a lot cooler than that Anointed One kid; why don't I just get rid of him?" and wrote out whatever purpose he had intended the Anointed One to serve in the future.


----------



## PK

BUNNIES AREN'T JUST CUTE LIKE EVERYONE SUPPOSES


----------



## Butterfree

THEY'VE GOT THEM HOPPY LEGS AND TWITCHY LITTLE NOSES

(Also, I've been watching more season two. Halloween was fun - I didn't recognize Ethan until he started talking to the statue, but when I did, I had the strangest ultra-fangasm despite not knowing Ethan very well, probably mostly because where there's Ethan, there's Giles. Also enjoyed Lie to Me. Right now I'm in the middle of The Dark Age and eeeee Giles. <3 Though I see that Critically Touched gives it a 60% rating so I'm really wondering what the hell happens in the rest of it that's pulling it down that far. D: Right now it may be my favorite episode so far but that's because I'm silly and fangirly and GILES.)


----------



## Dannichu

AND WHAT'S WITH ALL THE CARROTS?

Hehe, I _adore_ The Dark Age. I love all the Giles episodes <3 I haven't watched it in the longest time, though. 
Lie To Me is amazing for, in the absence of any other reason, one of my favourite quotes from the entire series that just gets more and more relevant as the show goes on:



> *Giles:* You mean life?
> *Buffy: *Yeah. Does it get easy?
> *Giles:* What do you want me to say?
> *Buffy:* Lie to me.
> *Giles:* Yes, it's terribly simple. The good guys are always stalwart and true, the bad guys are easily distinguished by their pointy horns or black hats, and, uh, we always defeat them and save the day. No one ever dies, and everybody lives happily ever after.
> *Buffy:* Liar.


Rewatched OM,WF and Tabula Rasa with PK earlier (as you may have noticed). The musical will never stop being the greatest thing ever, and _I hate you Joss_, for making me run a full bloody gamut of emotions within a 45-minute episode, making me go from crying with laughter ("Ready, Randy?" "Ready, Joan.") to plain ol' crying (Michelle Branch what do you do to me??).

While we're on the topic (vaguely) of OMWF, I need to show you all this (a cap from the behind-the-scenes featurette of the musical ep) if you were in any doubt of the brilliance that is Amber Benson. The picture's a bit unflattering and blurry, but yes; that _is_ a Pokemon t-shirt she's wearing <3


----------



## Butterfree

WHAT DO THEY NEED SUCH GOOD EYESIGHT FOR ANYWAAAAAY?!

So now I've watched through Bad Eggs, and that's all the episodes I have, so now it's more waiting for download progress. D:

I like Oz, from the rather little we've still seen of him. Xander/Cordelia is really "whut" for me, but hey, it's still somewhat amusing. Ted kind of reminded me of The Body, in a not-as-good way, until he turned out to be a robot after all. Jenny shooting Giles with a crossbow was just amusing.

Bad Eggs was... _odd_, to say the least. Alien body snatchers really don't feel like they belong on Buffy, and what exactly were those vampires even doing there? o_O When they possessed Giles, I did this whole "nuuuu you can't possess Giles! ;_;" freakout that only ended once he was back to normal at the end. The Scooby gang seems so lost without him.


----------



## Minish

Oh God, I _love_ The Dark Age. I'm a bit sad that review site didn't give it a better review; I thought it was awesome. Then again, I'm probably biased, since I think any episode with even a minor feature on Giles is automatically awesome.

Argh, I chose to wait for season 5 part 2, but it STILL hasn't arrived, which is why I was too depressed to post here again until now. XD And tomorrow's _Sunday_ as well. Maybe I'll go down to the post office and shriek shrilly until they give it to me. Somehow.


----------



## Dannichu

Hehe, I think Giles is the most universally-loved character. I mean, I don't know many people who'd say he was their absolute favourite (he's my second), but I'm yet to meet anyone who doesn't really love him.

Haha; Jenny not only shoots him in the back with a crossbow, but then he takes it out and _stabs a vamp with it._ That's a special level of badass. I think it's listed as Giles' Crowning Moment Of Awesome on the Buffy page of TVTropes. Actually, Giles gets quite a few moments of pure badassery. Giles with a chainsaw in Fear, Itself XD

It's probably the postal strike's that's got your Buffyage all delayed and stuff ): I really hope it arrives soon; I can't _wait_ to hear your opinion on the S5 finale, OMWF and, generally... everything. I cannot tell you how much fun it is to vicariously watch Buffy for the first time X3

Yeah, Bad Eggs is very strange. I'm okay with the vamps and demons and werewolves and magic and stuff... but I draw the line at aliens. I watched Buffy through for the first time with a friend who's a really long-time fan of the show, and we'd occasionally skip episodes that she thought were absolutely terrible, including Bad Eggs. 
So one night, after we'd watched the final episode for (for me) the first time and were all too juiced from its epicness to go to sleep, we watched all the bad episodes we'd skipped in one sitting. It was so much fun X3


----------



## Butterfree

Hee, I really think Giles is my absolute favorite character, at least at the moment. Everybody is utterly lovable (well, except Cordelia, and Buffy has her irritating moments, mostly when she jumps to conclusions whenever she sees Angel with anybody anywhere, and I suppose Angel isn't overly interesting though I hope to get more insight into his backstory later but the more primitive part of my brain likes him anyway because he gets tortured shirtless with holy water and the like), but Giles is... Giles. <3 And having seen some utterly amazing Giles moments with Dannichu helps.

I'm listening to Where Do We Go From Here? right now. I think it may be my favorite song from OMWF. It is heartbreaking. D: I think Joss has a thing for ironically victorious lyrics set to extremely mournful melodies (see the first bit of Where Do We Go From Here? and Everything You Ever from Dr. Horrible).


----------



## Harlequin

Giles is great! He's all like, hell yeah. Speaking of Crowning Moments of Awesome I am of the opinion that Giles's "I'd like to test that theory" moment with Willow was so fucking amazing <3. Seriously.

Also, I love the last episode. I've said it before but that episode, I think, is the Crowning Moment of Buffy as a whole. It's like, Willow is a superpowerful witch and she REWRITES THE SLAYER RULES. And then there's the whole EMPOWERMENT thing that happens with all of the potentials turning into Slayers. zomg it's so powerful. I love it.

OM,WF is amazing. I love it. 

ALSO I didn't mind the aliens bit. I was kind of "wtf" at it but I mean... hey, if I'm accepting vampires and magic and demons... why can't I accept aliens, too? Although I mean. Yeah.

ALSO you know in the comics. I love how like... Buffy lezzes with a Japanese Slayer. And then everyone important walks in. And is like. AAAAA WHAT BUFFY YOU'RE A LESBIAN.

Er. Yeah.


----------



## Minish

Dannichu said:


> Hehe, I think Giles is the most universally-loved character. I mean, I don't know many people who'd say he was their absolute favourite (he's my second), but I'm yet to meet anyone who doesn't really love him.
> 
> Haha; Jenny not only shoots him in the back with a crossbow, but then he takes it out and _stabs a vamp with it._ That's a special level of badass. I think it's listed as Giles' Crowning Moment Of Awesome on the Buffy page of TVTropes. Actually, Giles gets quite a few moments of pure badassery. Giles with a chainsaw in Fear, Itself XD
> 
> It's probably the postal strike's that's got your Buffyage all delayed and stuff ): I really hope it arrives soon; I can't _wait_ to hear your opinion on the S5 finale, OMWF and, generally... everything. I cannot tell you how much fun it is to vicariously watch Buffy for the first time X3
> 
> Yeah, Bad Eggs is very strange. I'm okay with the vamps and demons and werewolves and magic and stuff... but I draw the line at aliens. I watched Buffy through for the first time with a friend who's a really long-time fan of the show, and we'd occasionally skip episodes that she thought were absolutely terrible, including Bad Eggs.
> So one night, after we'd watched the final episode for (for me) the first time and were all too juiced from its epicness to go to sleep, we watched all the bad episodes we'd skipped in one sitting. It was so much fun X3


That makes me so happy. |D Most other characters I like have at least a reasonable size of the fandom who absolutely hate them. I guess Giles is just _that_ awesome. I can't decide on my absolute favourite, so really Giles is joint first with Spike for me (closely followed by Willow).

Oh God, that moment was just absolute win. XDD I remember looking at the Crowning Moment of Awesome page and reading that before it happened, and then just went WHOA don't want to be reading any more of this paaage. I'd say Giles' CMoAs that stick in my mind are when he absolutely just _whacks_ Ethan in the face in... I dunno, it may have been The Dark Age? I get that and the first Halloween episode mixed up because they obviously both had Ethan and were near to eachother. That was just... I just went O_O HOLY CRAP GILES! I love how _every single time_ Giles and Ethan are together, Giles just punches him in the face. Or gets someone else to do it, *cough* Band Candy *cough* which was just... so, so awesome. The other one I remember is (spoiler for late S2)After Jenny gets killed, and Giles just goes and /hits Angel repeatedly with a flaming rod/. I love how Spike was just like 'ah, just let the old guy do it'. Granted he was in a bit of trouble afterwards, but seeing as I was in complete grief at that point, I was doing the exact same thing as Giles in my mind and was glad he followed up on it. X3

Speaking of CMoAs, Willow's "OR GET THE HELL OUTTA MY LIBRARY!" thing was epic. In fact, any time she just flips and yells. <3

Yeah, I guess it might be the strike... but every other Buffy box set I've bought (or rather, every other Buffy box set...) has come pretty early. Except season 2 part 2. I should really not be able to remember which one it was. XD October really was Buffy Month for me, huh.

I agree with pretty much everything you say about the characters, Butterfree. Angel was really the only character I was a bit 'eh' about (Cordelia got better later, imo) but I accepted that he was important and I tend not to like characters like him. I didn't dislike Buffy/Angel, though I did dislike Buffy/Riley, so yeah.

It's annoying how easily Buffy jumps to conclusions. >_> I'm glad the Dawn-listening-outside-doorways thing wasn't too bad later, she could have turned into a mini Buffy.


----------



## Dannichu

I never really cared all that much for Cordelia until, for some reason, during the S3 episode Earshot, where Buffy can hear everyone's voices in her head. The idea that Cordy actually said everything she was thinking, I thought, was absolutely fantastic, and while I'd really not get along with her as a person, as a character, I really liked her.
And I felt really badly for her in Lover's Walk. Oh god, I nearly died when Joss did his Jossian thing and had them walking past a funeral right after Cordy was impaled on that pole-thing. I actually was yelling "Cordy, NO!" and then Willow, onscreen, just causally walks past the funeral and is all "Yeah, she'll be fine."



Spoiler: End of S3



Apparently she's fantastic in Angel, though I haven't seen enough of her to say. Same goes for Wesley, actually.





Spoiler: kinda OMWF. Nothing massive, but I don't want to ruin anything accidentally



Oh, I can't begin to pick my favourite OMWF song. They're all so fantastic in their own way; I've Got a Theory is all happy and together-y (and has BUNNIES), Under Your Spell is adorable and beautifully sung and the final verse will never stop making me giggle ("You make me come... plete" indeed), and Walk Through the Fire is just EPIC (with the "mostly filler" line I love so much and the FIRE ENGINES oh god), but if I had to pick, I'd probably go with the reprise of Under Your Spell, just because it's a) so, so sad without being melodramatic, and b) has the best damn singers of the lot harmonising so beautifully <3
But the "Understand we'll go hand in hand/but we'll walk alone in fear" line from Where Do We Go From Here is so... poigniant and, if I may quote from my beloved 100 Moments list yet again:
"It's hard to pin down just why I like this moment so much, but I think it's the way that it so perfectly captures where everybody is at that exact moment in their lives. I think it's more than just the lyrics here, I think it's also the way that everyone comes together for what appears to be their curtain call, usually a thing of cheerful victory, but then the group breaks apart violently. All of it combined create a moment that, while perhaps eluding my complete comprehension, works nevertheless."
_So_ good.





Spoiler: End of S6



Yessssss the Giles "I'd like to test that theory" bit!!! SO, SO GOOD. 
Again, if I may quote someone else, who can put it much better than I can:

"Willow is at the height of her dark mojo, admirably kicking every square inch of Buffy's ass. "There's nobody in the world with enough power to stop me now," she gloats, only to be blasted across the Magic Box by the last person anybody expected to see: Giles. "I'd like to test that theory," he says. *Did you cheer too?* Such an awesome entrance, quite possibly the best ever. Huge kudos to Mutant Enemy for keeping Tony Head's name out of the credits, making his appearance as much a surprise to the audience as it was to the characters."

I did, I did. I think I actually leapt out of my chair and squealed, actually. Amazing stuff.

I'm also with you on the final episode just being one big CMoA, particularly with Willow being filled with Light Magic (which I totally choose to belive is Essence of Tara); the whole thing bringing her magic misuse/addiction to a close, to a point where she knows she doesn't have to be so scared of herself or it anymore. So, so well done.



I don't dislike Riley, I just find him very boring. His fandom name is Captain Cardboard X3 Although my best friend thinks he's absolutely awesome, so he's not *univerally* hated. But, again, I just never seem to care very much for Buffy's SO's.


Spoiler: The S8 comics



I had a very WTF?ish reaction when I heard about Buffy and... Satsu? in the comics. I haven't read it, but the idea of it just seems a bit... OOC?



I'm not a huge fan of Dawn; she's annoying in parts, though when she's with certian characters I like her more (the scenes with her and Xander tend to be pretty sweet, and I adore the relationship she has with Tara), but I love pretty much all the main characters to bits. 



Spoiler: Tabula Rasa



Although one of the reasons I don't like S6 very much is because it made me not like Willow very much. I was really angry with her for using that memory loss spell on Tara prior to OMWF, and utterly furious with her during Tabula Rasa after within a couple of hours of promising Tara she'd do no more magic for a week, she tried to erase her memory again, _especially_ after Tara pointed out what Glory had already done to her mind. Not cool, Will )<



I spoil too many things ):


----------



## Harlequin

I quite liked Cordelia. She was never my favourite character but she did have a certain appeal. Apparently she's much, much better in Angel but I haven't had the chance to watch any yet.



Spoiler: End of S6



Yes. Giles is so amazing. It doesn't even *matter* that he got his arse kicked seconds later. He was still so awesome. <3





Spoiler: THE SERIES FINALE



Omg yessss. Light Willow was so awesome. An aside: when I saw "essence of" my eyes read "lesbian" instead of "Tara" and I was like "I know Danni likes girls but..." until I realised! oops. 

One thing is that the comics kind of ... well they make large hints that Willow does fall back into misuse of magic. I haven't read much of them, but I've read the Fray/Buffy crossover and Future Willow is insane and shit... it's kind of disheartening. :(







Spoiler: The Comics



Yeah, Satsu and Buffy was kind of ... wtf. Buffy was lonely and experimenting, iirc.


----------



## Minish

Oh, it was brilliant that Cordelia said everything she thought (sorry, not quoting again, I'm sure you understand why, what with your spoilery post of doom XD). I think that was when I started loving her as well. I could really empathise with her when she became more of a major character. I found her character very precious. <3 Especially after discovering Xander and Willow -- I absolutely loved her reaction to it, even though it was very sad, and the whole hospital scene was wonderful.

And yeah, the 'Jossian' thing you mentioned was AWESOME. I did the exact same thing as you, and then went '...oh right, this is what people mean when they say Whedon had certain styles'. X3


----------



## Dannichu

Harlequin said:


> Spoiler: THE SERIES FINALE
> 
> 
> 
> Omg yessss. Light Willow was so awesome. An aside: when I saw "essence of" my eyes read "lesbian" instead of "Tara" and I was like "I know Danni likes girls but..." until I realised! oops.





Spoiler



Haha; Willow summoned the ESSENCE OF LESBIANISM to save the world! :D
...what a superpower _that_ would be.



No, I totally get the non-reply-ness; I'd really hate to spoil something for you by accident; I ruined a lot of the show for myself before I watched it through, and I really regretted it D:

I think it's only Joss who can make a character as selfish as Cordelia so endearing. I adore the scene in Doppelgangland where Vamp Willow chases her into the bathroom, she's saved by Wesley and they both assume that Willow's been turned into a vampire and it's really sad... and then Cordy just turns to him and asks him out. 

And I never noticed it in Earshot till I put the subtitles on, but not only does Cordy say exactly what she's thinking in that scene in the library (I adored Oz's thoughts there, too ("We think, therefore _she _is. _Hm_."), especially compared with Xander's ("Naked girls. Naked Buffy! Oh god, help me!"), there's a fantastic bit where they're outside just after Buffy collapses and everyone's thinking stuff to the effect of "oh my god, is she okay?" and Cordy's just thinking "I'm cold". And a few minutes later, after learning that someone's going to kill half the school, "I'm not getting any warmer". I love her, I really do <3


----------



## Harlequin

Dannichu said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Haha; Willow summoned the ESSENCE OF LESBIANISM to save the world! :D
> ...what a superpower _that_ would be.


You know what? You could probably argue that the essence of lesbian is what saved the world! I mean, the Slayers are like a massive sisterhood now. You've got all these like potentials and Willow was all >:( NO MORE SHALL THERE BE A SINGLE SLAYER!!! and in the process of this she beat the Shadow men and was all LESBIAN POWER UNITE THESE GIRLS! I AM WILLOW :>



> No, I totally get the non-reply-ness; I'd really hate to spoil something for you by accident; I ruined a lot of the show for myself before I watched it through, and I really regretted it D:


YES. I second this. I, too, ruined a lot of it by reading spoilers. Accidentally and on purpose because I assumed I'd never watch Buffy. DON'T DO IT. It's so much better without spoilers.


----------



## Minish

I've already been spoilt for most things, I think. XD; Mostly because the first Buffy TVTropes page I looked at had spoilers, so I thought all of them did. >_> I've been spoilt for a horrible amount of deaths, or rather I guess I've spoilt myself... I really didn't need to know characters I like are going to be killed off later. Really didn't need to. Sigh.

Argh, I wish I was able to afford all the DVD versions of Buffy, subtitles would be really helpful. There are so many quotes I'm sure I miss because the American accents confuse me, not to mention all the slang I could look up if I knew how to spell it. I didn't notice Cordelia think "I'm cold" either, which just makes me want subtitles more. XD I swear, one day, I WILL buy all the DVD copies... even though I already have all the videos/have ordered all the videos. I absolutely adore special features on DVDs, and comparing my shiny season 7 DVD with my clunky videos, it has SO MUCH I WANT TO SEEE that isn't on YouTube. ;_;

Then again, the VHS box sets have really gorgeous art. I have them all laid out very artistically in a 'Buffy corner' in my room. XD Kind of ruined by the massive Pokemon poster above it, but hopefully I can move that and replace it with a Buffy one instead. >D Fear me and my Buffy corner! Oh God, and _merchandise_~ I am going to be very poor for the rest of my life...


----------



## Harlequin

I've got the Buffy box set, and it's not that pretty. It doesn't have anything in the way of special features and it's even lacking a "play all" feature. 

You don't realise how awesome "play all" is until you watch all seven seasons and have to manually select each episode. ; ;


----------



## Butterfree

Mm, the main reason I don't like Cordelia (at least right now) is that although she's amusing, she feels like a really overexaggerated character and is kind of fake as a result, compared to the at least _more_ believable other characters. Amusing to watch, but I can't possibly buy her as a person, not even in TV-land. :/

On another note, we found Buffy episodes online and watched Surprise and Innocence. _Wow._ Joss really likes to torture his characters, doesn't he? "Hi there, Buffy. Okay, now you have sex with your boyfriend, and as a result he loses his soul and becomes a vampire who wants to kill you and all your friends, and he also tells you you suck in bed, and then he goes to help revive a demon that will destroy the world. Sound good?"

But whoa, plot developments! Also, I _loved_ Xander's plan.

We're about to watch episode 15 now. :3


----------



## Dannichu

Surprise and Innocence are _amazing_. Innocence is Joss' favourite ep (and also my friend Jemma's). I personally prefer Passion if we're talking S2 episodes, but yeah... it's good.

Actually, I think Anya's sort of like a more "real" Cordelia. Her being a demon means the writers can make her do crazy things and still be a believable character (compared to having Cordy do the same thing), and she still gets to say hilarious, untactful things.
"You mean an orgasm friend?"
"Yes, that's exactly the most appalling thing you could have said."

But, like Cirrus said earlier, she gets more likable as the show goes on, and I think everyone's respect for her shoots up after Lover's Walk. Which is a pretty damn awesome ep. God, I need to rewatch S2.

Seconded on the desire for a "play all" feature. Though I really, really love having subs (I watch everything with subtitles and hate whoever made the House DVDs for not putting them on), and some of the special features are nifty; I've made my love of the OMWF featurette clear, and lots of the audiocommentary for episodes is _awesome._ The OMWF commentary is hilarious ("This... is pornography. I have no excuse." and "I think the fire trucks are the greatest thing I've ever done."), the one for Restless is amazing and the one for The Body is really sweet 



Spoiler: The Body



I watched it with AC right after watching the episode for the first time and was hoping I wouldn't cry because Joss talking over the onscreen events made them a bit less painful but then even _he_ couldn't talk over Anya's speech and, once again, I was reduced to a sobbing wreck.


 And Joss' commentaries are always fantastic because he actually talks like his characters, it's brilliant.
God, I'm sorry; I didn't mean to go off on a rant about what you're missing, Cirrus ><
You should come over to mine and we could watch all the extra stuff :3

Buffy merchandise makes me so happy inside <3 I've got a few books, a few figurines (a Tara, a Tara and Willow (with Miss Kitty Fantastico!) and a Vamp Willow), a couple of small posters (one of Buffy, Dawn and Willow with umbrellas and one with Willow and Tara) and a whole bunch of stuff I bought at the Expo. At the time of buying I got a little overexcited. So much so, I think Butterfree's exact words were "Don't worry Dannichu; they'll come and take you away soon." XD
I want the figurines of Giles and Anya from Fear, Itself (Anya with her bunny suit and Giles with his poncho and sombrero) more than words can say.


----------



## Butterfree

...Holy crap, Oz 



Spoiler: S2 E15



is a werewolf


.

Still really like him. He's adorable. And he's all tiny compared to his friends. And the whole Larry deal was hilarious.


----------



## Harlequin

Dannichu said:


> Actually, I think Anya's sort of like a more "real" Cordelia. Her being a demon means the writers can make her do crazy things and still be a believable character (compared to having Cordy do the same thing), and she still gets to say hilarious, untactful things.
> "You mean an orgasm friend?"
> "Yes, that's exactly the most appalling thing you could have said."


I'd never thought of her that way. Yeah, I guess you could say she's a more "real" Cordelia. She's just so ridiculously amazing. Her lack of tact and understanding of humanity is brilliant and when she comes full circle by the finale it's just so heartbreaking. I honestly nearly cried when she died. :(


----------



## Dannichu

Whoo and hoo; I managed to not spoil _something_ for you! I love Oz's tinyness. 
And, oh god, the Larry conversation killed me. And it kills me again when it's brought up in Earshot. I love Larry.



Spoiler: everything, including the final ep



I cannot believe they killed Anya. I know Joss wanted to kill someone, but... it was horrible, and I especially hated the way nobody really seemed to care. I mean, Joyce got an entire episode about how much everyone missed her, and while most character's reactions to Tara's death annoy me greatly (Buffy didn't seem to care even though she was crying her eyes out on Tara's lap not three episodes previously, Tara was Dawn's _surrogate mother_ and she didn't seem to care), at least Willow had the decency to try and destroy the world in her grief (I understand that that's the last thing Tara would have ever wanted, but dammit, I was so sad after she died I wanted to kill something in my rage/grief), but Anya... nothing. Even Xander didn't seem to care!

But I'm so, so glad she managed to come full-circle before she did go. Series seven wasn't very good to anyone, especially with all the focus on the Potentials, and Anya was the only character, I thought, who got better (except Andrew, but I have issues with him). In a way, I guess that's why she was singled out as the one to die - aside from everyone adoring her because she was so great (thus making the pain of her loss greater), she had reached a point of absolute brilliance, and the only thing the writers could do from there was to kill her. 
I guess the same's true of Tara; I read on a Buffy-essay-site (which has since gone down) an analysis about how Tara faced all her fears; connecting to someone else and accepting that she deseves to be loved, facing her family and her secret, going through Glory's brain-suck, being strong enough to leave the person she loves more than anyone else in the world... that after her character had come full-circle and become, essentially, the heart of the entire group (not to steal Xander's title, but Buffy cried out her greatest secrets on _Tara's_ lap for a reason), the only thing they could do was kill her. God, I hate TV writers )<



...uh, just think about it this way - think of all the fun you'll have reading all the spoilered-out stuff here when you're done with the series! (sorrysorrysorry)


----------



## Harlequin

Dannichu said:


> Whoo and hoo; I managed to not spoil _something_ for you! I love Oz's tinyness.
> And, oh god, the Larry conversation killed me. And it kills me again when it's brought up in Earshot. I love Larry.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: everything, including the final ep
> 
> 
> 
> I cannot believe they killed Anya. I know Joss wanted to kill someone, but... it was horrible, and I especially hated the way nobody really seemed to care. I mean, Joyce got an entire episode about how much everyone missed her, and while most character's reactions to Tara's death annoy me greatly (Buffy didn't seem to care even though she was crying her eyes out on Tara's lap not three episodes previously, Tara was Dawn's _surrogate mother_ and she didn't seem to care), at least Willow had the decency to try and destroy the world in her grief (I understand that that's the last thing Tara would have ever wanted, but dammit, I was so sad after she died I wanted to kill something in my rage/grief), but Anya... nothing. Even Xander didn't seem to care!
> 
> But I'm so, so glad she managed to come full-circle before she did go. Series seven wasn't very good to anyone, especially with all the focus on the Potentials, and Anya was the only character, I thought, who got better (except Andrew, but I have issues with him). In a way, I guess that's why she was singled out as the one to die - aside from everyone adoring her because she was so great (thus making the pain of her loss greater), she had reached a point of absolute brilliance, and the only thing the writers could do from there was to kill her.
> I guess the same's true of Tara; I read on a Buffy-essay-site (which has since gone down) an analysis about how Tara faced all her fears; connecting to someone else and accepting that she deseves to be loved, facing her family and her secret, going through Glory's brain-suck, being strong enough to leave the person she loves more than anyone else in the world... that after her character had come full-circle and become, essentially, the heart of the entire group (not to steal Xander's title, but Buffy cried out her greatest secrets on _Tara's_ lap for a reason), the only thing they could do was kill her. God, I hate TV writers )<
> 
> 
> 
> ...uh, just think about it this way - think of all the fun you'll have reading all the spoilered-out stuff here when you're done with the series! (sorrysorrysorry)





Spoiler



Oh my _God_ I know. When I read that she died I was like "eh" but then I forgot all about it and watched the rest of the series... and I'd forgotten she died by the time it happened. I was gob-smacked. Killing Anya was the only thing they could do. As a writer I appreciate that and I understand it.

As a viewer I wanted to kill something. She was amazing. By far the best character. I felt a bit disappointed with the way Tara's death was handled, too. I mean. Okay, Willow destroying the whole world was a _bit_ more pressing, but surely someone not-Willow could have cared?

She died when she like, finally understood humanity and what it meant to be human again... which is tragic but also incredibly beautiful in a way. Do you think so?


----------



## Dannichu

(I'm reeeeeally sorry, non-Harle-people for all the spoilery stuff ><
But, seriously, don't read.)



Harlequin said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> She died when she like, finally understood humanity and what it meant to be human again... which is tragic but also incredibly beautiful in a way. Do you think so?





Spoiler



Oh god, absolutely. That's an absolutely beautiful way to put it. I'll stop quoting the Top 100 Moments list one day); but this bit about Anya in the episode End of Days, titled "Anya Keeps Fighting" sums it all up, I think:

"Humans are screwed up, "in a monumental fashion," Anya observes, giving us her thousand-year old viewpoint. "They have no purpose that unites them, so they just drift around, blundering through life until they die. Which they KNOW is coming, yet every single one of them is surprised when it happens to them." She continues on in her traditional Anya way, following up her derisive remarks with one straight from the heart, and we finally understand why Anya doesn't run from apocalypses any more; she's human, and despite her better judgment (and vehement denial) she wouldn't have it any other way. This is the climax of Anya's story arc, not only for this season but really for her entire character since she lost her powers way back in the third season. It's a wonderful speech, made more so when you realize that Anya is, in essence, delivering her own eulogy. I think Andrew put it best: "That was kind of beautiful.""

And re: Tara's death, I was _furious_ with Dawn for not caring as much as she should have. Tara was the _only_ person who made time for Dawn, even in the middle of what must've been the hardest thing to do in her already difficult life (leaving Willow). And then, two hours after sitting curled up in her room with _Tara's dead body_, she's happily (albeit worriedly) wandering around with Clem. And she doesn't mention Tara _once_ in series 7. Outside of the context of Willow, _nobody_ mentions her. My absolute favourite thing about series 6 was how much Tara became her own person, independent of Willow (not that I don't adore them as a couple, I just love Tara by herself and that she was allowed to be her own person), but as soon as she's killed, she's just "Willow's dead girlfriend". Why, writers? Why?


----------



## Harlequin

Dannichu said:


> (I'm reeeeeally sorry, non-Harle-people for all the spoilery stuff ><
> But, seriously, don't read.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Oh god, absolutely. That's an absolutely beautiful way to put it. I'll stop quoting the Top 100 Moments list one day); but this bit about Anya in the episode End of Days, titled "Anya Keeps Fighting" sums it all up, I think:
> 
> "Humans are screwed up, "in a monumental fashion," Anya observes, giving us her thousand-year old viewpoint. "They have no purpose that unites them, so they just drift around, blundering through life until they die. Which they KNOW is coming, yet every single one of them is surprised when it happens to them." She continues on in her traditional Anya way, following up her derisive remarks with one straight from the heart, and we finally understand why Anya doesn't run from apocalypses any more; she's human, and despite her better judgment (and vehement denial) she wouldn't have it any other way. This is the climax of Anya's story arc, not only for this season but really for her entire character since she lost her powers way back in the third season. It's a wonderful speech, made more so when you realize that Anya is, in essence, delivering her own eulogy. I think Andrew put it best: "That was kind of beautiful.""
> 
> And re: Tara's death, I was _furious_ with Dawn for not caring as much as she should have. Tara was the _only_ person who made time for Dawn, even in the middle of what must've been the hardest thing to do in her already difficult life (leaving Willow). And then, two hours after sitting curled up in her room with _Tara's dead body_, she's happily (albeit worriedly) wandering around with Clem. And she doesn't mention Tara _once_ in series 7. Outside of the context of Willow, _nobody_ mentions her. My absolute favourite thing about series 6 was how much Tara became her own person, independent of Willow (not that I don't adore them as a couple, I just love Tara by herself and that she was allowed to be her own person), but as soon as she's killed, she's just "Willow's dead girlfriend". Why, writers? Why?


Non-Danni people: I'm sorry :( it's just that the entire thing is more interesting than like the first two seasons :(

Yeah, I can totally agree with the top 100 moments list there. Anya's death was painful, raw and tragically beautiful. She died secure in the knowledge of her own humanity and she finally realised just why the rest of the Scoobies kept on fighting. Such a powerful moment and a fitting end for her, I guess. It's sad not to see her but it couldn't have gone down any other way.

I felt that Tara's death was treated as simply a catalyst for furthering Willow's development and storyline rather than a tragic even in and of itself. Tara had progressed as a character to the point when it was no longer "Willow and Tara" but "Willow" and "Tara" as two separate, connected entities. And then season seven fucked that one up. Dawn should have been way more upset than she was and everyone should have felt the hole that Tara's death left.

Having Tara's death just be a plot device is sick, in my opinion. As a character she fit perfectly into the Scooby group and became beloved by fans and characters alike. Her death should have been something more than a reason for Willow to cross over into Dark Willow territory.


----------



## Dannichu

Spoiler



I read it somewhere, I think on Wiki, that when asked about the nature of Anya's death, Emma Caulfield said something like "It was sudden, blunt and to the point. And in that way, I think it was the perfect end for Anya." And while I hatehatehate that she died at all, she was right; it was very fitting.

I also thought it was very sweet that Andrew, who spent all of s7 making up stories and telling lies to make himself feel better and to justify his own actions, told Xander "She died saving me"; the first selfless lie he said.

You're not the only person to have a problem with Tara's death being used simply as a way to advance the plot. The fact that they killed her off in the first place; the manner in which they did so _and_ the events that occured in its aftermath all played directly into a whole host of terrible stereotypes involving lesbian characters. There's an excellent (but slightly long) essay about how terribly Tara's death was handled here, outlining (among other things) how Willow and Tara had the first gay relationship most kids ever saw on TV, and the damage it did to see them torn apart so violently.

Actually, funny story (I don't think I've told anyone this before); even though I only watched Buffy last year, when I was younger, during my "I must seek verification" period I think every LGBT kid goes through (where they look high and low within all kinds of media for people like themselves), I found a video on Youtube that basically had clips of a bunch of lesbian characters from film and TV on, and one of them was a scene with Willow and Tara (though I didn't know this at the time). All the clip of them was was a short bit from Seeing Red where they're out of bed and newly-dressed and Willow pulls Tara close to her by her beltloops for a kiss and a hug. 
14-year-old me thought that scene was absolutely beautiful - virtually all the other clips in the video and others like it were of things like passionate kisses, which were nice, don't get me wrong, but the closeness and domesticity of that little gesture and the kiss they shared really stayed with me. When I actually started watching Buffy last year, I loved Willow and Tara from the get-go (and not just because it was a lesbian relationship), but I didn't actually realise that the scene I loved so much from when I was little was of Willow and Tara. Until I actually saw it happen in the episode. 
I knew that Seeing Red would be the episode of Tara's death thanks to a spoiler I read about Amber Benson only making it into the credits for that one ep, but when I saw the tugging and the kissing and the hugging, I remembered it perfectly from that little video I used to watch whenever I felt lonely... and then realised that Tara would be dead within the next few minutes. And then she was. And my hurt that my absolute favourite character in anything, ever, was dead was totally compounded by the fact that this one little scene between two anonymous girls that I used to cling to actually took place only moments before one of the girl's violent murder.

...and it still makes me sad ):


----------



## Butterfree

Hee, I love Xander episodes. And Cordelia is somewhat improving! At least she's gotten rid of her stupid friends now.

I liked Amy turning Buffy into a rat. Prophetic irony much? x3

And then Passion. Oh, _God_. 



Spoiler



Annoyingly, I knew Jenny would die because one of the Critically Touched reviews just had to blab about it, but still. ;_; And Giles was so _cute_ about it and all oblivious and I screamed at him "NO THIS IS WAY TOO ROMANTIC TO BE REAL WAKE UP AND BE SUSPICIOUS DDDD:" Aaaah. And that floppy just fell... I'm guessing they find it again somehow anyway but damn. And good God, Angel is creepy as hell and really evil and disturbing. ;_;


----------



## Dannichu

It's weird, but the Xander episodes always seem (to me) to be the really terrible ones; I'm looking especially at Go Fish, but Inca Mummy Girl was fairly awful, and I really want to like The Zeppo more than I do.
That said, I really loved The Replacement in S5, so they're not all bad. And I now realise you're talking about Bothered, Bewitched and Bewildered (or something to that effect; I never remember the episode title) and that one's funny as hell, but I can't enjoy it as much as I'd like to because I spend the whole time feeling so terrible for Willow D:

It's strange how many times Amy can appear and yet we never know that much about her. I think she appears in every season but 5 and 7.

Yeah, the Critically Touched reviews aren't safe just because you've seen the episode the review's actually reviewing; I'd wait till you've seen the whole season before looking through, and even then it's a bit risky. 



Spoiler: Passion



That bit in Passion is just _beyond_ cruel. I also yelled stuff at the television, in the totally unrealistic hope that it would in some way change the onscreen events because it just seemed too horrible to sit back and let it happen D:



As an aside: I kept calling Passion "Passions" and then thinking "Why am I doing that?" before remembering that's the TV show that Spike watches (occasionally with Giles/Joyce). Oh dear XDD

Given that Butterfree's the person who's seen the least of anyone here (iirc, Harle and I have seen it all, PK's partway through S6, Cirrus is waiting on the second half of S5 (good girl!) and Salamander's mostly through S4 (if you're reading, did you like Who Are You??), should we say we don't need spoiler tags for any episodes from the beginning through to what Butterfree's seen? All these spoiler tags give me a headache ><


----------



## Butterfree

> It's weird, but the Xander episodes always seem (to me) to be the really terrible ones; I'm looking especially at Go Fish, but Inca Mummy Girl was fairly awful, and I really want to like The Zeppo more than I do.


Oh, I know. I just like Xander and whenever there's a Xander episode, he gets himself into some sort of really messed-up trouble, usually of a sexual nature, and makes a lot of cute freaked-out faces at whoever is available while being hilarious. I'm easy to please that way.

I found Go Fish reasonably amusing; could have done without the casual joking about gang rape, and the plot was stupid, but there was some pretty hilarious dialogue in there. That and while watching it I was curled up in bed with Shadey and that tends to make for warm and fuzzy memories.

Willow, I knoooow. She needs to get over Xander so I can stop going "Awwww! D:" at practically everything. She's so sad and adorable, even when trying to axe-murder him.

So we finished season two! I Only Have Eyes For You was pretty cool for the whole psychological parallels between the ghost and Buffy and so on. And the finale was epic and I have recently realized that I _love_ the way that Buffy sets things up. Like Angel liking to psychologically torture his victims for fun by murdering their families - it came out naturally in relation to Drusilla, without seeming like it was setting up for anything, and then when Angel started doing it to Buffy, it didn't seem like a cheap excuse to have the villain not kill her because it had already been set up to feel like what he'd do. And likewise, Spike's dislike of Angel was set up really well throughout the second half of the season as comic relief and villain character development and then made it feel natural for him to team up with Buffy at the end, something that would have felt contrived and clichéd if it hadn't been set up that way. :3

...now I'm wondering how in the world they get Angel out of that hell dimension thing, because I saw him in some episode we watched. Well, that and he has his own spin-off series that can't really happen when he's presumably in Hell on the receiving end of some eternal torment since he had his soul back by the time he was pushed in there. (Ouch.)

The scene where Drusilla got very into kissing Giles as Jenny and the reactions from Spike and Angel really amused me.

(Now we need to get to season threeee. I am _dying_ to show him Band Candy. And, well, just to see it again in general now that I have a better idea of who the characters are and what is going on.)


----------



## Dannichu

Butterfree said:


> he gets himself into some sort of really messed-up trouble, usually of a sexual nature, and makes a lot of cute freaked-out faces at whoever is available while being hilarious


He does; he _does._ XD

I have to say, I like Buffy (the series, not the character) better when the main three sort out and get over all their attractions to one another. Given the Scoobies can never have a relationship with someone outside of the group without it being romantic/familial (I'll never understand what took people so long to get that Willow and Tara were more than friends - Scoobies aren't allowed to have friends! Only, as Anya would put it, "orgasm friends"!), I like that they can have a nonromantic friendship with one another.
Well, that and I adore Tara and Anya to bits, and my Big Scooby Family needs them in.

The series two finale was excellent. I _knew_ you'd enjoy (totally the wrong word there, but can't think of a better one) Angelus, he's such an excellent villian. In fact, he's pretty much the embodiment of the TVtrope "Absolute Monster", where they've done such a good job of showing you how absolutely, totally evil he is that you really, really want him dead. 
I agree with you on how amazingly well stuff is set up waaaaaaay in advance (a major plotline in season six is set in motion _five seasons_ before it actually  happens), although I often don't notice it till my second or third playthrough, which often makes me go "OOOOOHHH!" and then everyone stares at me.

Series threeeeeee~ Is GOOD. It's generally regarded to be the best season, and while I don't personally agree (I don't know what my obsession with series 4 is; nobody seems to like it anywhere near as much as I do), I totally agree with whoever said that while S2 had the excellent overarching plotline, and S4 had the brilliant individual episodes, S3 has _both._

BandCandyBandCandyBandCandy <333333


----------



## Butterfree

Aaand now we've watched season three through Band Candy! The existence of Band Candy has been making me giggle uncontrollably at every scene Joyce and Giles are in together while Shadey had no clue what was so amusing, so it's probably just as well we've gotten that done and I can be normal again. Except, well, I guess it's more giggleworthy after the fact, so I suppose he will have to live with it. Band Candy is one of those things you watch and can just _see_ how much fun everybody was having. I know if I were over forty and got to act in an episode like that, it would make me feel young again for weeks.

Oh, and I have absolutely no ear for accents so I didn't actually notice it the first time I saw it, but I love how Giles goes all Cockneyish when he's in teenage mode.

The Mayor kind of confuses me at the moment, but I expect everything will be clearer soon in that regard. Incidentally, though Dead Man's Party was rather meh as an episode, the scene where Giles was in his car going "'Oh, look at my mask! Isn't it pretty? It raises the dead!' Americans!" was _really_ amusing. And Faith is kind of fun, though it's hard to reconcile her current maybe slightly overly violent self with the one in Who Are You?. I suppose something must happen to make her go _very_ batshit, and I'm looking forward to that.

Oh, and I also loved Giles threatening Principal Snyder. Let's just say Giles doing most anything one wouldn't immediately expect of the British librarian mentor tends to make me giddy. I wonder if the entertainment value of that will ever wear off.

Angel's return seems a bit strange to me; he's barely been gone for five minutes when he suddenly reappears, and so far we haven't gotten any sort of an explanation for just why he was suddenly released from the Hell dimension. Hopefully that's upcoming.

Now, Willow and Xander. Why can't they keep their hands off each other _now_? D: This can't end well, can it? Nyeeergh. I love them and still kind of ship them, but they're dating other people! They need to decide what they want already. I don't really agree with the Critically Touched guy on it being out of character for them, per se, since it has been quite clear since the beginning that they had feelings for each other and their reaction after kissing struck me as making up for the general concept of them cheating since they are clearly horrified by what they just did. Continuing the advances in Band Candy stretches it a bit more, but it's still a flaring-up-crush thing that I insist has been simmering very shortly beneath the surface more or less constantly since season one, and I can buy it. I just hope it gets resolved in a decent way.

(Also, I really liked that counselor. It's annoying they killed him off. D:)

(Also also why did they have to put the shot of Giles sniffing that rose in the _opening credits_? Now it's bringing back cringey memories in every episode. D:)


----------



## Dannichu

Hahaha; the "Look at my mask! Isn't it pretty? It raises the dead! _Americans_!" line makes me absolutely die laughing every time I hear it (and I've rewatched the episode just for it before); the only line I can think of that could possibly beat it is the immortal "Tiny, tiny babies!" one. Oh, Giles <333

I really love episodes where you can tell the actors are all having a fantastic time. The Wish, for example; I've read a couple of interviews where the actors said how much they loved being evil for an episode (or two, in Alyson's case). And the S6 episode Tabula Rasa (which I, possibly irrationally, love; it's the one right after OMWF), where the actors get to be all out-of-character again and it's the _funniest thing ever._
While Giles and Joyce undoubtedly steal the show in Band Candy, I have to give massive props to the guy who plays Snyder; his lines are funny on paper, but the way he says them makes them hysterical. "Summers, you drive like a _spaz_." Teehee.

Teenage!Giles' cockney accent is doubly funny because that's ASH's default accent (also the one he imparts to James Marsters). Most of the things I've seen him in have him use his Giles-voice (Imagine Me & You, Merlin), but it's always such a treat to see him be all working-class (he's a wannabe terrorist in an episode of the BBC drama Spooks (basically 24, only British) and I couldn't take him seriously at all). Actually, if you never, ever want to be able to look at Giles in the same way, take a look at this picture, of him performing... a certain musical in the West End.
I freaking _love_ ASH.

Uuuuh, I'm not 100% sure we ever actually _do_ get any explanation for Angel's unprompted resurrection. I remember it really confusing me at the time, but I also remember us skipping a few Angel-centric episodes because none of us found him particularly interesting. So I dunno.

I always thought that the Willow and Xander thing was a little OOC; mostly because Willow's an absolute stickler for rules and having her cheat seems a little odd (she wouldn't cheat on a test, it follows that she wouldn't cheat on her boyfriend), and while the "formal clothing!" scene was sweet, I'm not sure I buy Xander's sudden, inexplicable attraction to Willow, after blatantly only seeing her as a friend since they were six years old. Betrayal's quite a big theme in S3, and kinda continues on through the series. One of the (many, many) reasons I utterly adore Tara is she's pretty much the only character in the whole show who never, ever cheats. And given how gays are almost universally portrayed as totally promiscuous on TV/in film, it was a refreshing change.

I hated the Giles with rose in the credits, too >< But some of the scenes they pick for the credits in some seasons are fantastic; series 4 (maybe 5?) has a clip from Giles' presentation in Hush, where he holds up his finger dramatically while a slide saying "THEN!" is on his projector, which makes me giggle every time, and, also from Hush, the clip of Spike giving the two-fingered salute made it onto the opening credits, which amuses me because _clearly_ that gesture isn't as offensive in the US as the UK. Also brilliant are the clips from Fear, Itself that make it into the S4 credits for Emma and Anthony; Anya in her bunny suit and Giles with his chainsaw. Awesome stuff.
The series 6 credits had Xander doing his Snoopy dance, which I utterly love, and in series 5 and 6, the Willow clips are almost all Willow/Tara clips and though the reasoning makes me angry (presumably to make up for Tara not being allowed to be a main character in her own right), getting to squee over my favourite couple every time the credits run is of the good.

...and I've just analysed the opening credits far, far too much so I'm stopping now.


----------



## Butterfree

> I really love episodes where you can tell the actors are all having a fantastic time. The Wish, for example; I've read a couple of interviews where the actors said how much they loved being evil for an episode (or two, in Alyson's case).


Oh, yes. I _love_ watching other people having fun. The Wish was a great case of this as well; it's going to be fun to see it again (if I remember correctly, it was the third episode I saw with you after Once More, With Feeling and Hush, so at that point I was still a bit confused about the characters and so on - I remember I had completely forgotten who Cordelia actually was).



> While Giles and Joyce undoubtedly steal the show in Band Candy, I have to give massive props to the guy who plays Snyder; his lines are funny on paper, but the way he says them makes them hysterical. "Summers, you drive like a spaz." Teehee.


I knooow. Especially after seeing him being the obsessively stern principal, it is extremely entertaining to see the teenager version, and his delivery of everything is just gold.



> this picture


Oh, God. You have scarred me for life.



> I always thought that the Willow and Xander thing was a little OOC; mostly because Willow's an absolute stickler for rules and having her cheat seems a little odd (she wouldn't cheat on a test, it follows that she wouldn't cheat on her boyfriend), and while the "formal clothing!" scene was sweet, I'm not sure I buy Xander's sudden, inexplicable attraction to Willow, after blatantly only seeing her as a friend since they were six years old.


Mm. You see, usually I'd agree with the logic of "blatantly only seeing her as a friend since they were six years old" - as I said, usually I don't like shipping childhood friends, for precisely this reason. But there has definitely been setup on both sides - Willow's crush is obvious enough, but Xander does have a few moments that seem to be of a definite romantic nature (the ice cream scene, "I love you" when she was in the coma and his disappointment when she mumbled Oz's name), and several more emphasizing the depth of his feelings for her in general (my favorite is "If they hurt Willow, I'll kill you," to the current object of his romantic attraction) that also make sense in the light of suppressed romantic feelings. And then there's the fact that what kicked off the whole thing, really, was when he asked her how far she had gotten with Oz. It can be asked as a perfectly innocent question between friends, but given that we know - and Willow knows - that Xander is extremely prone to jealousy and it can very much also be a jealous question, I think it created a bit of invisible tension already. Then there's the pretty clothes, "Oz/Cordelia is very lucky", dancing and the physical proximity of that, and then they're both hit by a huge what-if truck and the kiss happens before it actually registers that, wait, no, you don't do this when you're in a relationship.

Strengthening the case for Willow's momentarily forgetting the rules, there is the fact that (and this is what bugs me about Willow/Oz at the moment) she got together with Oz in the first place on the grounds that she couldn't just wait around for Xander to "wake up and smell the hottie". She likes Oz too, obviously, but she frequently strikes me as largely admiring him more than being attracted to him per se at the moment (see all her babbling on about him being in the band and the highest-scoring student ever to fail to graduate and so on). When it seems like Xander might be returning her feelings by making vaguely jealous-sounding comments, ultimately she would _rather_ be with him. Even better, Xander is a lot more familiar to her than Oz and she is nervous about the entire boyfriend thing, making him seem 'safer'. All in all this comes together as she is lost in the moment to make her make the first move towards the kiss, all before she starts to think about this in terms of rules - and once she does, of course, they break it off and are horrified. Now the barrier is broken, though, and being close to Xander has suddenly started to actually mean something it didn't before, plus a sort of rules-are-already-broken thing.

I hope to God they get over it for good before they do something stupid or their platonic friendship falls apart (and hopefully Willow can come to appreciate Oz properly once that's happened instead of him constantly serving as a "second choice" because she can't have Xander, as he seems to me to be right now), but I can see how it could happen (thus far) in character, even though Willow obviously isn't the cheating type. You'd need to be the cheating type to do it consciously and deliberately, but it's all happening as a sort of heat-of-the-moment thing that I can just about see.



> Giles with his chainsaw


...I need to see that. (I probably did see it, I guess, but I don't remember it.)


----------



## delta7

I saw "BtVS Club" and thought, no way. Yep, glad to know others still appreciate this brilliance like I do :)


----------



## Harlequin

Dannichu said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I read it somewhere, I think on Wiki, that when asked about the nature of Anya's death, Emma Caulfield said something like "It was sudden, blunt and to the point. And in that way, I think it was the perfect end for Anya." And while I hatehatehate that she died at all, she was right; it was very fitting.
> 
> I also thought it was very sweet that Andrew, who spent all of s7 making up stories and telling lies to make himself feel better and to justify his own actions, told Xander "She died saving me"; the first selfless lie he said.
> 
> You're not the only person to have a problem with Tara's death being used simply as a way to advance the plot. The fact that they killed her off in the first place; the manner in which they did so _and_ the events that occured in its aftermath all played directly into a whole host of terrible stereotypes involving lesbian characters. There's an excellent (but slightly long) essay about how terribly Tara's death was handled here, outlining (among other things) how Willow and Tara had the first gay relationship most kids ever saw on TV, and the damage it did to see them torn apart so violently.
> 
> Actually, funny story (I don't think I've told anyone this before); even though I only watched Buffy last year, when I was younger, during my "I must seek verification" period I think every LGBT kid goes through (where they look high and low within all kinds of media for people like themselves), I found a video on Youtube that basically had clips of a bunch of lesbian characters from film and TV on, and one of them was a scene with Willow and Tara (though I didn't know this at the time). All the clip of them was was a short bit from Seeing Red where they're out of bed and newly-dressed and Willow pulls Tara close to her by her beltloops for a kiss and a hug.
> 14-year-old me thought that scene was absolutely beautiful - virtually all the other clips in the video and others like it were of things like passionate kisses, which were nice, don't get me wrong, but the closeness and domesticity of that little gesture and the kiss they shared really stayed with me. When I actually started watching Buffy last year, I loved Willow and Tara from the get-go (and not just because it was a lesbian relationship), but I didn't actually realise that the scene I loved so much from when I was little was of Willow and Tara. Until I actually saw it happen in the episode.
> I knew that Seeing Red would be the episode of Tara's death thanks to a spoiler I read about Amber Benson only making it into the credits for that one ep, but when I saw the tugging and the kissing and the hugging, I remembered it perfectly from that little video I used to watch whenever I felt lonely... and then realised that Tara would be dead within the next few minutes. And then she was. And my hurt that my absolute favourite character in anything, ever, was dead was totally compounded by the fact that this one little scene between two anonymous girls that I used to cling to actually took place only moments before one of the girl's violent murder.
> 
> ...and it still makes me sad ):





Spoiler



I think I agree with you about everything, really. Except for your whole validation story, since mine didn't go like that. ... Obviously, since I'm like the opposite of lesbian. Yeah. I totally get it, though :(

And Andrew! I don't know where I stand with Andrew. Do I like him? Do I think he's a good character? I don't know. He's in the comics, though, and he's _kind_ of like a peripheral Scooby. IDK. Need to read more.

You know what else I love? How our conversations are just big blocks of colour. It's like THIS IS SECRET >:( or something idk.

I totally agree with Emma re: Anya's death. It was _so, so_ fitting for her to die then. Crushing, yes, but also fitting.





Dannichu said:


> He does; he _does._ XD
> 
> I have to say, I like Buffy (the series, not the character) better when the main three sort out and get over all their attractions to one another. Given the Scoobies can never have a relationship with someone outside of the group without it being romantic/familial (I'll never understand what took people so long to get that Willow and Tara were more than friends - Scoobies aren't allowed to have friends! Only, as Anya would put it, "orgasm friends"!), I like that they can have a nonromantic friendship with one another.
> Well, that and I adore Tara and Anya to bits, and my Big Scooby Family needs them in.


This is what I really liked about Buffy, too. _None_ of them end up with each other. It's great! The point is that they're _friends_ and that's why they're so strong. (It's always something that's annoyed me about Harry Potter. I "ship" Ron/Hermione because it makes _sense_, but I do sort of wish they hadn't gone that way... but I digress.) Anya was such an amazing character. <3 

And yeah. I mean. *Obviously* Willow and Tara were orgasm friends! But to be fair nobody knew Willow was a lesbian, so. 

... Also

I support Buffy/Angel/Spike. AND I'M NOT ASHAMED OF IT.


----------



## Dannichu

Butterfree said:


> Oh, yes. I _love_ watching other people having fun. The Wish was a great case of this as well; it's going to be fun to see it again (if I remember correctly, it was the third episode I saw with you after Once More, With Feeling and Hush, so at that point I was still a bit confused about the characters and so on - I remember I had completely forgotten who Cordelia actually was).


Yeah, I'm sorry we jumped around the whole show so much; I get all excited and have to show everyone my favourite episodes and don't actually think of things like spoilers and character development/introductions until it's too late.
Hehe. I'd love The Wish for no reason other than it set the stage for Doppelgangland <3

Hm, I see your point, re: Willow and Xander... I haven't seen the early seasons in quite a while and can't remember all the details, but while I agree with what you say, there's still something off about it (besides them cheating on their SOs) that I don't really like. 
I'm totally with you on the Willow/Oz thing. I really want to like them more as a couple, but it always felt a bit like Willow was more in love with the idea of being in love than with Oz himself. They're fairly adorable, Oz's respect for Willow is fairly awesome, and they have a definite share of adorable moments, but things like Oz's lack of communication (emphasised in Earshot when Willow realizes Buffy can read Oz's thoughts and panicks; "I never know what Oz is thinking! She'll know him better than I do!"), Willow's adoration of Oz's statuses (she talks about him being in a band a little _too_ much) ...and the fact that, to me, they will always look like siblings just make the pairing hard to really love.

You know, I don't think we did watch Fear, Itself. It's my favourite Halloween episode; it's a bit of a retread of the S1 episode Nightmares, with a whole bunch of awesome thrown in for good measure. God, nearly all the series 4 episodes are either fantastically amazing (Hush, Who Are You?, Restless, Fear Itself) or utterly terrible (Beer Bad, Where the Wild Things Are, Goodbye Iowa).



delta7 said:


> I saw "BtVS Club" and thought, no way. Yep, glad to know others still appreciate this brilliance like I do :)


Yaaaaaaay <3 Favourite character? Favourite episode? Gogogo!



Spoiler: Everything



See, I have _the most_ amazingly mixed feelings about Andrew. I hate him in series 6, but he's one of the best things about series 7 and it's so hard to reconcile how much I like him in S7 (I _adore_ Storyteller; it and Him are the only S7 episodes I remember being funny) with the fact he was a co-conspiritor in attempted rape, murder and the death of my favourite character in S6 D:

Haha, I like our blocky conversations, too. We could say anything here and nobody would ever know! (assuming the other guys in the club don't finish the series and then come back to see what we were talking about)

When I saw Anya's death for the first time, it was so sudden I didn't even realise it'd happened, and it wasn't till we saw that couple-second shot of her bleeding from her mouth as everyone else escapes the collapsing school that I actually realised. I was devastated ):

Another thing about Anya is that I didn't really care for her too much in the beginning. I mean, I adored The Wish and Doppelgangland, but when she was reintroduced as a main character in S4, I wasn't that fussed about her, since all she seemed to do was make inappropriate comments about sex. I noticed her more in S5, absolutely loving the episode Triangle, but it wasn't till her speech in The Body that I absolutely fell in love with her. And, I think, she and Tara were the only characters who improved in series 6, and then she and Andrew were the only ones who got better in series 7 - the final episode and the continuation of Anya's storyline are pretty much the only things S7's got going for it, imo.

Actually, in making Anya and Tara so awesome (again, imo), the writers kind of shot themselves in the foot (feet?) because when things like Willow using magic to abuse Tara's mind, or Xander leaving Anya at the alter with no decent explaination happen... you start to completely side with the scooby-in-laws and resent the scoobies for it. And since the Core Four were always, as their name suggests, the heart of the show, making the viewers bear ill feelings towards them isn't really the best move.



Yessss, I'm so glad that something akin to the HP epilogue didn't happen in Buffy. That would've ruined _everything._

Buffy/Angel/Spike? Yeah, I can imagine that happening pretty easily. I don't read a lot of threesome fic, but there's a surprising number of good Willow/Tara/Buffy fics (that focus on the relationship more than the sex, which is unusual), and I found a really good Tara/Buffy/Anya the other day, too. And, interestingly, a Tara/Anya/Xander that was not only in-character, but didn't freak me out. The fact that Willow/Tara/Dawn exists at all disturbs me, and whenever I see a Willow/Tara/Oz fic, I think I'll give it a try, but it always freaks me out and I can never read through to the end.


----------



## Butterfree

I don't really think Willow and Oz look that much alike, but then again it tends to be an exception when I actually think siblings look anything alike, so. Mostly I just really like Oz and it's sad when her heart doesn't seem to be into it. D: Does it get better in that respect later?

No, we didn't watch Fear, Itself. You were also talking about watching Tabula Rasa a few times but we never did. I'm very curious about both of them. And about Beer Bad and Where the Wild Things Are, _just_ for the fact they're apparently so legendarily bad. And about whichever episode has Xander's penis getting diseases from a Chumash tribe, because that's quite lolwhut.



> Buffy/Angel/Spike


The only thing likelier than that is Angelus/Spike/Drusilla, with all the very amusing text for all three sides of that triangle. I was just waiting for them to have an orgy at some point.

I had a dream last night involving Faith as a member of some gang at my old school that murdered a meteorologist and tried to cover it up. Then Phoenix Wright had to cross-examine her. And meanwhile Buffy and Giles were in some sort of a relationship, which is a lot squickier now that I'm awake than it seemed at the time.

(Also: Whoo, the next batch of season three episodes have almost finished downloading.)


----------



## Dannichu

Really? There's one episode where Oz's hair is red and they really could pass for identical twins. I think it's Becoming, Pt. 2, when she's in the wheelchair and Oz is pushing her and they look like male and female versions of one another. 

I think it does get better, yeah, after the whole Willow/Xander thing. I don't think I can add much to that without spoiling ):

Ruth, Jemma and I had a discussion this afternoon about watching Buffy episodes out of order and how it's not the same if you don't see them how they're supposed to be seen - I watched OMWF (which is in early S6) having seen up the end of S4 and it wasn't as good as if I'd have seen it having seen all the episodes leading up to it, for example. But we also agreed that your odds of hooking someone on the series by showing them stuff like The Harvest are pretty low. But I deliberately didn’t show you Tabula Rasa because it’s one of those episodes that needs to be seen when you really know the characters, or else it’s not half as funny, and also some really significant plot-stuff happens at the end that I didn’t really want to spoil you for. 
The “penis gets diseases” episode is called Pangs and is the only Buffy Thanksgiving episode, is in series 4, and is part of a run of absolutely brilliant episodes; you have Pangs, Something Blue and then Hush. It’s a shame the mediocre Doomed comes then, because after that you’ve got A New Man, which might be my favourite Giles episode <3

I don’t think Beer Bad’s as terrible as everyone makes it out to be. It’s very funny (it’s hard to think of a S4 episode that isn’t, though; series 4 is easily the funniest Buffy season), and Willow is awesome in it. It’s just a bit too in-your-face with morals about drinking – as the title kinda suggests. 
And hell, even Where the Wild Things Are has *some* redeeming features – we get to hear Giles sing, which is always awesome (and if you don’t laugh as the ensuing scene you’re made of stone), and (this is probably something only I’ll appreciate, I’ll admit) we get to see Tara be all confident with her magic and stuff in front of other people. And she has her hair up in adorable bunches and okay I’m stopping now.

Haha, I’d forgotten about Angel(us)/Spike/Dru. That really works. I love me some amusing (sub)text.

Even though it’s not in any kind of ‘shipping-y context, I nearly died laughing when Giles said “I believe the subtext is rapidly becoming text” in… actually, I forget the episode, because I had an icon that said that and it was one of my favourites, and then to find out it was actually a Buffy quote… well, that made my day. The same thing happened with Firefly and “Today I was pompous and my sister was crazy”, “Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!” and “I can kill you with my brain”. Oh, Joss. <3

Your dream sounds absolutely amazing. I know I’ve had a couple of Buffy-related dreams, but I normally can’t remember any details (except, uh, that Tara was definitely in a couple), but the only one I remember clearly was only a few days ago, in which Giles, Cirrus and me were like drug dealers only instead of drugs they were Pokemon cards and we kept selling whole bunches of them to corrupt governments. It was very 24. XD

Also, I think you should take the “only” out of your sig; you’re nearly a third of the way through everything now!

Also, also; I dunno if anyone else has Google’s Quotes of the Day on their homepage, but today’s made me irrationally happy (yes, I know it’s Dr Horrible, not Buffy, but it’s still related):



> Sometimes people are layered like that. There's something totally different underneath than what's on the surface. But sometimes, there's a third, even deeper level, and that one is the same as the top surface one. Like with pie.


  - Joss Whedon, Zack Whedon, Maurissa Tancharoen, and Jed Whedon

Hee!


----------



## Dannichu

Really? There's one episode where Oz's hair is red and they really could pass for identical twins. I think it's Becoming, Pt. 2, when she's in the wheelchair and Oz is pushing her and they look like male and female versions of one another. 

I think it does get better, yeah, after the whole Willow/Xander thing. I don't think I can add much to that without spoiling ):

Ruth, Jemma and I had a discussion this afternoon about watching Buffy episodes out of order and how it's not the same if you don't see them how they're supposed to be seen - I watched OMWF (which is in early S6) having seen up the end of S4 and it wasn't as good as if I'd have seen it having seen all the episodes leading up to it, for example. But we also agreed that your odds of hooking someone on the series by showing them stuff like The Harvest are pretty low. But I deliberately didn’t show you Tabula Rasa because it’s one of those episodes that needs to be seen when you really know the characters, or else it’s not half as funny, and also some really significant plot-stuff happens at the end that I didn’t really want to spoil you for. 

The “penis gets diseases” episode is called Pangs and is the only Buffy Thanksgiving episode, is in series 4, and is part of a run of absolutely brilliant episodes; you have Pangs, Something Blue and then Hush. It’s a shame the mediocre Doomed comes then, because after that you’ve got A New Man, which might be my favourite Giles episode <3

I don’t think Beer Bad’s as terrible as everyone makes it out to be. It’s very funny (it’s hard to think of a S4 episode that isn’t, though; series 4 is easily the funniest Buffy season), and Willow is awesome in it. It’s just a bit too in-your-face with morals about drinking – as the title kinda suggests. 
And hell, even Where the Wild Things Are has *some* redeeming features – we get to hear Giles sing, which is always awesome (and if you don’t laugh as the ensuing scene you’re made of stone), and (this is probably something only I’ll appreciate, I’ll admit) we get to see Tara be all confident with her magic and stuff in front of other people. And she has her hair up in adorable bunches and okay I’m stopping now.

Haha, I’d forgotten about Angel(us)/Spike/Dru. That really works. I love me some amusing (sub)text.

Even though it’s not in any kind of ‘shipping-y context, I nearly died laughing when Giles said “I believe the subtext is rapidly becoming text” in… (actually, I forget the episode), because I had an icon that said that and it was one of my favourites, and then to find out it was actually a Buffy quote… well, that made my day. The same thing happened with Firefly and “Today I was pompous and my sister was crazy”, “Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!” and “I can kill you with my brain”. Oh, Joss. <3

Your dream sounds absolutely _amazing_. I know I’ve had a couple of Buffy-related dreams, but I normally can’t remember any details (except, uh, that Tara was _definitely_ in a couple), but the only one I remember clearly was only a few days ago, in which Giles, Cirrus and me were like drug dealers only instead of drugs they were Pokemon cards and we kept selling whole bunches of them to corrupt governments. It was very 24. XD

Also, I think you should take the “only” out of your sig; you’re nearly a third of the way through everything now!

Also, also; I dunno if anyone else has Google’s Quotes of the Day on their homepage, but today’s made me irrationally happy (yes, I know it’s Dr Horrible, not Buffy, but it’s still related):



> Sometimes people are layered like that. There's something totally different underneath than what's on the surface. But sometimes, there's a third, even deeper level, and that one is the same as the top surface one. Like with pie.


  - Joss Whedon, Zack Whedon, Maurissa Tancharoen, and Jed Whedon

Hee!


----------



## Butterfree

Hee, I _adored_ Lover's Walk. Spike being all drunk and miserable and pathetic and almost getting himself burned up by sunlight? Oh, Joss, you know me so well even though I've never met you. <3 His cheekbones don't even seem so bad anymore. And it was all so delightfully pointless. "Hey, let's have Spike come over for an episode being all hilariously mopey about Drusilla leaving him and kidnapping Willow to make him a love potion, and then when the episode is about to be over, he'll just magically change his mind and leave." Absolutely marvelous.

God, now I want to quote all of it.

Silly Willow and Xander, though! D: I hope they're over one another now and can just be adorable friends again.

The Wish is also more fun when I know everybody properly. :3



> Even though it’s not in any kind of ‘shipping-y context, I nearly died laughing when Giles said “I believe the subtext is rapidly becoming text”


Hee, me too.



> Also, I think you should take the “only” out of your sig; you’re nearly a third of the way through everything now!


Huh, that's a weird thought. It's odd how soon lengthy series can be over.

Giles as a Pokémon card dealer corrupting governments. Hee. x3

Also Dr. Horrible quote. <3


----------



## PK

Spoiler: for season 6, and sort of a bit of season 2. Or was it 3? Whatever.



GUH. BUFFY AND SPIKE'S SEX SCENE. SO CREEPY AND EW AND... WRONG. NO. *shudders* WHY

ALSO WHY IS TED A ROBOT


----------



## Minish

Well, my second part of S5 arrived a few days ago, so I have gone Buffy crazy and I'm nearly at S7.

Hmm... I can definitely see why people don't like S6 much. It's really not done anything for me. Giles is gone, Spike is annoying, Willow is boring. If it weren't for the bad Buffy/Spike (yes, I just said bad Buffy/Spike... I can totally see why you hated Spike in S6, Danni >_<) I would probably really like Buffy this season, though. You were also right about Tara, I do like her a bit more this season. She's sort of gone up from 'boring, don't really like her' to 'decent character', although it would be nice to see some more development *SOB* I know what's coming soon ;___;

So, yeah. I hear S7 is better though, so I can't wait for that. I'm really disappointed by the Buffy/Spike, what the hell have they done to Spike? I'm not one to miss S2 when he was kick-ass; I adored him last season, he was just another part to make up the awesomeness that was S5. But gahhh, I hope they turn him back around soon. I think this is the only point I'll ever prefer seeing Willow/Tara interaction to Spike/Buffy...

On the other hand... OM,WF was of course, awesome. 8D I've been listening to the songs nonstop. The characterisation was awesome -- it's only after Tabula Rasa that the series started going downhill for me, I think (Randy Giles! *cackle*) because Spike was awesome in OM,WF and, well, everybody was. It really lit up S6, it was well placed in this season just for that reason. >_<

Uhhh yeah. Spontaneous ramblings about the series so far! (Also, Doublemeat Palace was so, so lame, makes Beer Bad look brilliant) *scurries off to watch MORE Buffy instead of doing homework*

ETA: Oops, forgot about my thoughts on the rest of S5!

Really amazing. I knew The Body was going to be musicless and heartbreaking, but it still made me pretty much consistently cry throughout it. The Gift was great, too -- although I really wish I hadn't been spoilt for Buffy's death. In fact, yesterday I realised how disappointing it is that I've been spoilt for so many upcoming things (three major deaths; I don't think it's possibly to be as spoilt for stuff as I am >_>). I really wish there hadn't been such a massive gap in when I watched the first half and the second half, it's hard to see the two as connected and it kind of disorientated me when starting to watch the second half.


----------



## Butterfree

Aaand we're finishing Earshot. Helpless was weird; it makes me cringe when Giles does something evil. D: But then he got to be cool and badass later to make up for it, so. It was really heart-melting when Buffy was trying to get him to take her to the ice show instead of her dad.

Wesley is an annoying guy, but I love what he does for the show; he's hilarious and brings out irritable snarky cool Giles. :D And Cordelia constantly hitting on him, while weird, is amusing.

The Zeppo amused me; the "the apocalypse is going on but we see it all from the point of view of Xander, who is completely out of the loop!" gimmick was fun, though it might also have been fun to actually see what was going on. In any case, Xander episode, so yay Xander. And there was amusing dialogue and so on.

I'm really coming to enjoy the Mayor as a villain; he's so creepy in this disturbing nice-guy way. Faith I am also starting to really like, since her development around killing a man has been pretty well handled and her turn to the dark side works. The finale is building up to be epic.

I _really_ have a thing for awkward adorable virgin guys being used by dominant women. I should not have enjoyed the Faith/Xander scenes that much.


----------



## Minish

Butterfree, I love how unrelated our posts are. XDD Will be jarring for Danni to reply to...

I also started to like the Mayor as a villain, he was really disturbing in the way I've only seen Buffy really do. It's like they didn't mean to (except that, obviously, they did), like he was creepy by accident. They do something similar later with Glory; these two villains really made S3 and S5 very special, in my opinion.

Anyway, what I thought would happen happened -- S6 got better. This EXACT SAME THING happened with S2. I watched the first half, and then had to wait ages for the second one due to a slow delivery, and it seemed bad and un-Buffy when I watched it, either because I was out of the loop or was expecting something else. It feels like the second half of S6 is completely superior (barring OM,WF and Tabula Rasa), now it's like it's settling back into normal Buffy (hehe, quite interesting/ironic, considering that I just finished watching Normal Again). :D Which is great!

And _thank God_, Spike is better. I don't think this is just because of the reasons I mentioned before, I seriously think Spike just sucked in the first half of S6. I was really hoping this would happen, because I hated that horny, lame Spike that seemed to have completely lost the depth that made me like him so much in S5. It might just be temporary, but I really, really hope that they stay with this Spike, even if he's still different from the S5 one.

Uh, yeah, that probably made no sense. The ramblings of a girl taking a break from her Buffython!


----------



## Dannichu

Yay, lots to reply to! :D (oh holy hell this will be long)

Hehe, that scene in Lover's Walk (with the little marshmallows and then Spike pretending to bite Joyce while calling Angel "a very bad man!" is Ruth's absolute favourite Buffy scene, ever. And now I giggle every time I see it in your sig.
Like I said, my favourite scene is Gile's slideshow in Hush, with the memory-loss scene (Randy/Joan XDD) in TR coming second. So, so good. 
My other Buffy-friend's favourite scene was Jonathan's "Class Protector" speech in The Prom, which isn't funny, but is so, so sweet <3

YES. I totally agree with both PK and Cirrus about 



Spoiler: S6



the Spike/Buffy-ness in S6, especially the sex scenes being absolutely horrifying. They make me really uncomfortable just watching them. >< 
And, if you can believe it, another friend of mine who loves Buffy and finds James Marsters unbearably attractive, which, as previously stated, I absolutely do _not_ get (although she put Amber Benson #5 on "list of 5 celebrities I'd sleep with" list, so I can't fault her taste _too_ much), bought the DVD boxset of S6 _specifically for_ the S/B sex scenes. She's crazy.

I hate S6 more than anything for what they did to Willow, though. Just... no. I don't care if it was carefully developed and foreshadowed for absolutely ages, I utterly hate it :/





Spoiler: not so much spoilery as general musings about S7. Shouldn't ruin anything for Cirrus that she doesn't already know X3



I don't know if S6 or 7 is my least favourite season. S6 was terrible to a lot of my characters, and hurt them in ways that I absolutely cannot get over, especially making them act in ways that, I feel, are totally OOC, but S7... is boring. It has its moments, but a lot of it feels like dead space. Sorry for being so pessimistic about this :/



Haha, Doublemeat Palace. It's like the writers thought the season was getting more depressing, so they decided to revert to the upbeat days of S1, so they came up with something they'd hope would match the absurdity of things like I Robot, or Ted (speaking of, I STILL DON'T KNOW WHY TED IS A ROBOT!!! D:). And, in that respect, they kinda succeeded! :D



Spoiler: Tabula Rasa



Did you shout at Willow for being a stupid, foolish girl at the begining of TR? Me and PK had fun yelling at/being disappointed in her.



Tara will continue get more developed throughout the season. Her best episodes (I think) are Dead Things and Older and Far Away, which I dunno if you've seen yet. 


Spoiler: late S6



Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa ;~;



Helpless is awesome, if for no other reason than it sets the story up for one of my absolute favourite S5 episodes, Checkpoint, which has one of the most fantastic, happy, scenes in the latter half of the series. Plus, we get to see The Many Sides Of Giles, which is always fantastic. 

My friend Sarah thinks Wesley is the greatest thing in the world, I don't get why. I think he's pretty funny, but the fact he's married to and has a child with Alyson in real life scares me beyond all measure because I'm incapable of separating actors from their roles. 

I think the Mayor may be my favourite villian. He just steals every scene he's in <3 The finale is VERY, VERY epic.
I found Glory very creepy and thought she was pretty cool, too, but loads of people think she was an absolutely terrible, boring villian. I'll be interested to see what Butterfree thinks when she watches it. PK/Harle/anyone; what did you think?

And now you know why I giggled so much when you listed your reasoning for liking Teacher's Pet - epic foreshadowing! :D

The Body. So, so good. There is absolutely nothing about that episode that isn't perfectly done. I couldn't possibly love it (in terms of how well-done it was; it makes me just too sad and hits too many sore spots for me to say I like or enjoy it) more.

I'm glad you're enjoying the second half of S6; I wasn't really that keen on it. I just never really liked Spike much after about mid-S5, and I remember a bunch of S6 being The Spike Show and not really enjoying it much. 
Oh, but Normal Again was so, so _fantastic_ <3333 I meant to show it to Butterfree, actually (when you watch it, you'll love it, I swear). 



Spoiler: NA



And Tara saves the day! :D Also, how good was she in Older and Far Away (the birthday ep with Dawn being annoying)?


 Also, what were your thoughts on Hells Bells?

Entropy is... a series-changing episode, followed by one that is even moreso. I look forward _very_ much to hearing your thoughts on the next few episodes, actually.



> it's like it's settling back into normal Buffy


 It does that, and then it abruptly settles into Buffy on every life-sucking depressant you can think of D:
Also, which deaths have you been spoiled for? I can only think of two major ones o.o


----------



## PK

Watching normal again!

Danni, you should have been online so we could watch it together. ):


----------



## PK

Watching normal again!

Danni, you should have been online so we could watch it together. ):


----------



## Butterfree

We finished season three yesterday. :D

I was actually mildly let down by Graduation Day Part 2, mostly because demon!Mayor was kind of lame - the CGI was poor, to start with, but even then he didn't really do much after ascending save be there and eat a couple of people, and I was hoping there would be more to his rage over Faith (I really liked the build-up of their messed-up father/daughter thing) than just being fooled into chasing after Buffy to the library. I was also kind of expecting the grand plan to be a bit more ingenious than "Everybody has weapons and uses them before they blow everything up!", but all the same, it was very nice to see everyone band together to help Buffy (same with that heartwarming bit in The Prom where it turned out people _had_ been noticing Buffy's tendency to save lives - I really loved that). That said, the rest of the finale worked very well - the Buffy/Faith fight, stabbing her and Buffy's moral conflict over that, Angel finally leaving for good, Oz and Willow being generally adorable, Xander being ridiculously excited over being "Key Man", etc.

And then we can move on to season four and a whole bunch of fun episodes!



> the fact he's married to and has a child with Alyson in real life


Buh? @_@ That's just... odd. Now I'm picturing Willow hooking up with Wesley and it makes no sense.

I had a couple of other Buffy dreams. I forgot what one of them was about, but the other involved pepperoni pizza, Buffy and the gang needing to steal a car to save the world (after which Buffy promptly crashed into another car on the weird parking lot they were at), and good spiders. It was quite epic.


----------



## PK

DANNI. I HAVE TO TELL YOU *EVERYTHING* ABOUT NORMAL AGAIN.


----------



## Harlequin

Yesterday I read Buffy/Stargate crossover fic in which Jack O'Neill was Xander's biological father.

It was, um. 

Um.


----------



## Butterfree

So, while the site was down, we watched the entirety of season four and the first five episodes of season five!

Giles with a chainsaw in Fear, Itself was awesome. Also the tiny fear demon, and Anya in her giant bunny suit.

While Riley isn't exactly the epitome of interesting, I don't dislike him at all; I feel more or less the same about him as I felt about Angel-with-a-soul, really.

Whee Spike. :D He's been _really_ fun in season four. I will mourn the day that Spike stops being constantly hilarious. As I mentioned on Twitter, I nearly died laughing at the scene in The Initiative where he and Willow discuss his inability to bite her. So did Shadey; he's been showing it to everybody. I think it's more amusing if you actually know who these characters are, so they tend to just stare blankly at it, but hey. Spike in Pangs was also hilarious, especially with walking around in bright sunlight covering his head and looking in on the happy vampires who are having a feast. And getting impaled with dozens of arrows while tied to a chair. And everybody was pretty hilarious in Pangs, really; _all_ the dialogue in that episode was made goofy in one way or another. And Dannichu knows I love Something Blue, and Hush is great, and Tara is adorable and sweet and needs a hug and Miss Kitty Fantastico makes me go all "KITTY :D" whenever she appears.

Oh! Oz. His departure was pretty sudden and his infidelity felt kind of out of character but then again it was supposed to (but really, Oz is the sweetest guy in the world and the perfect boyfriend and I'd totally marry him if he didn't have the silly wolf thing). New Moon Rising was pretty cool and Tara was adorable, though I can't shake the base feeling it ought to have ended with a big happy threesome. Did I mention Tara was adorable? I'm glad Oz left for good after this episode, though; things had gotten really uncomfortable and Willow and Tara are cute.

Oh, God, Who Are You? makes so much more sense now that I actually know who Faith is. The tiny, tiny babies line is still awesome, especially with Giles's flailing.

Okay, so did I go mad or was Where the Wild Things Are not _that_ bad? @_@ I mean, yeah, it's completely irrelevant to the plot arc, and yeah, it doesn't have much of a lasting effect on the characters, and yeah, Buffy and Riley do spend most of it locked in a room having sex, but I actually liked how the house's history of sexual repression twisted the libidos of everyone in it. And it has Giles singing. And I liked when he exploded at the old lady. And as far as episodes with a moral go, "sexual repression is bad" has a lot more need to be said than "beer is bad" or "internet dating is bad" or "maybe your stepfather really _is_ evil". For that matter, while I usually don't think you really can say anything meaningful when trying to prove your point through a link that doesn't exist in the real world (Beer Bad cannot possibly tell you anything about actual beer as opposed to magic caveman beer), the moral part actually managed to somewhat work thanks to tying in with another supernatural phenomenon (so it doesn't tell you anything about what actually happens to sexually repressed teenagers, but it does have it leaving supernatural impression that looks eerily as if they'd all died there).

I loved Giles in The Yoko Factor. He's amusing when he's all drunk and bitter, and that "Bloody hell!" made him sound like teenage!Giles.

The Initiative and Adam were never very interesting, but eh, season four just had a lot of memorable, and hilarious, episodes to make up for it. The uniting spell in Primeval was sort of cheap; why haven't they done that before when it would have been convenient? Plus, it just feels overpowered, what with stopping bullets and whatnot.

Shadey hated Restless because he's lame and hates dreams. I still thought it was extremely amusing, but he didn't laugh once. :( And he thought it was by far the worst episode of the series, worse than I Robot, You Jane, and balked when I told him the Critically Touched guy ranked it as one of the best episodes of the series. Silly Shadey.

So! Season five. I've been _wondering_ where the hell they would pull Dawn out from. My theories have at various points included:

- Joyce adopted her
- She would just be handwaved as having been staying with Buffy's dad the whole time
- Dawn was an orphan who used a spell to insert herself into a family in the hope of finding love
- Joyce, fearing loneliness, used a spell to make herself a second daughter, but the spell also caused her illness

I'm glad that's cleared up. Not that "cleared up" is the right way to put it, since I still have no idea what it means that she's "the key". She's kind of annoying at the moment, but I hope she comes to feel like a more natural part of the show.

The Replacement was very fun, especially Anya. And I realize now that I haven't really talked about Anya at all, but she is amazing and hilarious and I love her.

Glory seems potentially cool, not that I know much beyond "she be craaaazy". Looking forward to watching more.


----------



## Harlequin

Dawn grows into herself. She's ... At first I was horrified that the writers did what they did - "Buffy? _A sister?_ But that invalidates canon entirely! Everything we've seen didn't happen! Aaaaaa!" etc. 

But she gets better. She gets worse before she gets better, but she _does_ get better. Good times. 

Glory really be crazy, yeah.


----------



## Minish

Oh boy. I finished season 7 just before the site went down, so I was planning on rambling everything as soon as it came back up. And then I had a geekout with Danni the other day and now feel all worn out. XD Still, I'll try... so much to talk about... going to put most of it in spoilers. _Hah!_ Your spoiler tags are secret no more! >D

By the way, Butterfree, I totally totally did the exact same thing when Dawn arrived. Who. The bloody hell. Is this girl. I knew Buffy's sister would arrive later, so (I think) the two times Buffy was specifically described as an only child, I was like @_@ Continuity error much? And then she arrived and I was like WTF for ages. I was so weirded out that I even stopped watching for a bit. I actually think they took a bit too long to explain it all; while I do think it was a really clever idea, it just seemed like they'd just randomly inserted her for no reason other than to have a convenient character.

Anyway.



Spoiler



I definitely didn't think seasons 6 and 7 were as bad as people say. I enjoyed them as much as I did for at least 3 and 4 (most likely because I was more obsessed watching 6 and 7 and the characters were more established). The Trio sucked but I did actually enjoy having a darker season, I really did. I've seen Buffy's behaviour during 6 being described as 'annoyingly emo', so I was expecting something really bad, but I still enjoyed it.

Buffy/Spike... going to go back to that. It's my favourite ship, the only one I feel strongly about at all. (By the way, your story about the video clip of Willow/Tara was so beautiful, Danni. ;_; I felt so bad not liking Willow/Tara because I felt like I _should_, having heard so much about it and how influential it was for lesbian relationships on TV. I think if I hadn't been expecting it at all, and definitely if I had been younger, I would be a massive fan of it, rather than just not seeing the chemistry. Sigh.) I made a sort of essay-type ramble about my thoughts on Buffy/Spike in S6 and in comparison with Buffy/Riley, but it's pretty long and like I said, rambly, so I won't bother posting it here unless people are actually interested in adding their thoughts on it. X3 Before I wrote that and made some sort of theories of my own, I really disliked all the sexytiemz Buffy and Spike had. I just really hope it was meant to be uncomfortable, because goddamnit, it really was. I'm a bit of a prude and find all sex scenes to be uncomfortable to watch, but Buffy/Spike was just another level, and if I didn't like the pairing I probably would just try and remove them from my memory entirely. Hopefully though the destructive nature of their relationship was meant to be represented by tasteless sex scenes.

Other than that, I did actually like how Buffy/Spike progressed. Okay, so Spike kind of sucked a little in late S6 because he'd lost all the badassness and hilarity that made 5 so damn brilliant. But I adored him in Season 7, and really, really empathised with him. I wasn't a big fan of Anya in 7, so all that season had going for it was really the Spike and the few times they made the First really interesting.

Like I said to Danni over MSN, Dark Willow was just total meh. Vamp Willow? Awesome. Dark Willow? Bad scripting and just weird. I didn't dislike the way her memory charms in TR and before that were done (of course, I was angry at her for it, but I didn't think it was completely OOC or anything), but getting addicted to magic? _What_? First of all, what's so bad about becoming 'reliant' on magic anyway? Suddenly there was a huge fuss about doing stuff like closing the curtains with magic to save her getting out of bed. What's actually so bad about that? I understand that becoming reliant = becoming like Dark Willow eventually, but that was never explained and seemed really bizarre.

Plus, I find it slightly offensive. I'm a pagan, bit Wiccan, and for the most part I just found all the (obviously) inaccurate Wiccan stuff and portrayal mildly amusing. I already knew the show had gone 'ooh, Wicca is something unusual, let's include it' and didn't have a huge problem with it when I came across it in the show. And I looooved how Jenny was a technopagan, because technopagans are awesome. I got annoyed at the 'Wiccan meeting' or whatever it was when Willow met Tara, because although they were portrayed as not being 'real' and kind of stupid, that was only because traditional magic is actually real on Buffy. But when Willow got 'addicted' to magic, I was a little bit put out. Especially with all the drug addiction and sex addiction parallels, and how it was pretty much done with the Wiccan name... and also how they used the term 'Wicca' but never actually focused or even described it as a religion (it wasn't even properly explained). The only time the word 'goddess' was mentioned was that ridiculously cringeworthy 'Oh my goddess' line by Willow in Chosen, which really spoilt an otherwise beautiful and redeeming moment.

Now... Anya. Like I said, got spoilt for the three deaths (Tara, Anya and the third one was Spike, *SOB* ;A;) and knew she died after reading an Amazon review. Bloody reviewer, just tell me whether or not the product was in good condition, not the entirety of the plot! Anyway, reading that she died was a shock in itself, so I can't even begin to imagine how it would have been in the show, not knowing she was going to die. But I thought it was a really nice ending.

Hey, Danni, I know you don't like Spike, but Anya wasn't the only one whose death was brushed over! But yeah, I didn't mind that nobody was overly sad about their deaths right there. I liked the last moment, everyone just taking in everything that had happened and the scope of the great big massive cratery explosion (which was a little OTT; _everyone_ got out of town previously?), and I thought Xander's sad smile was lovely.

Tara's, though, was a little strange. Like you guys said, everyone pretty much got over it very quickly. I understand that they had more pressing matters to deal with, i.e. Willow about to destroy the world, but even so. Then again, I've never felt that dealing with death was one of the show's strengths -- not including Joyce though, of course. The Body was one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen, though unfortunately too painful for me to consider watching again any time soon. I even thought that Giles got over Jenny a bit too quickly. I understand that he wouldn't necessarily show his grieving all that obviously, but it was like she was forgotten very quickly, and since we can't hear Giles' thoughts, I was a bit sad about that.



All rambled out, now. Is anyone else who's seen all of Buffy interested in making a 'Top 25 Episodes' list like the one on Critically Touched? :D I'd be interested in seeing what you guys' ones would be like.

Also, Danni, not only does the fandom call Riley Captain Cardboard, but so does Spike in "No Place Like Home". XD In his "...and you have stupid hair" speech. Only noticed that today. Ahh, season 5, how I love you.


----------



## Dannichu

Is it wrong that the days the forums were down were absolutely killing me because I miss ranting at you guys about Buffy so much? :3
(advance warning: this will be LONG)

I still can't belive you watched so much in such a short space of time, though, Cirrus. I watched series 1-4 quite slowly, about two or three episodes a night, because last year we'd go over to my friend's and watch it, and one of us was bound to have homework of some kind that needed doing, so we couldn't stay up till 4am watching all the Buffy we could. I pretty much marathoned S5 over a couple of days (and as a result, I see S5 as one big plot-thingy rather than a bunch of individual episodes), and seasons 6 and 7 were a little bit more broken up over periods of time.

While Fear Itself is blatantly a rehash of Nightmares, it does have an absolutely huge amount of things that would make _anything_ better; Giles with chainsaw, Anya with bunny suit, Oz as God, Giles with somrero and the freaking hilarious teeny-tiny fear demon at the end. I <3 Gachnar.

Yup, the idea of Willow and Wesley is marginally creepy when you can't seperate the characters from the actors. But you know what's even creepier? Amber Benson is dating Warren's actor IRL. I _know._ 
(Butterfree, you'll meet him later and all will become clear)

I don't really get the Riley-hate. I think he's boring - pretty much everyone I've ever spoken to thinks he's boring (everyone except my best friend who inexplicably _adores_ him, second only to Giles), but there's no reason to hate him. ):

I think S4 Spike is my favourite. He's fun when he's all evil in S2, but he's just so, so _funny_ in S4 X3 Any scene with him and Giles cracks me up, and his interactions with the other characters (him and Buffy in Something Blue, him annoying Xander by imitating Anya in Hush... the scene Butterfree mentioned with Willow in The Initative). I just plain love season 4. It's one of the most-hated seasons in the whole series, but it's just so funny you can't help but love it <3

My absolute favourite scene in Pangs (it's one of the funniest scenes in all of Buffy, and probably the single most absurd) is that shot of them all on the bikes, pedalling across the cemetery for about five seconds while music that sounds like a newsflash jingle plays in the background. It makes me die laughing every time. 
Though Spike's "You made a bear! Undo it!" is fantastic, Xander mentioning Angel at the end is perfect, everyone thinking Angel's evil is hilarious (as is Anya's "What's he like when he _is_ evil?") and so much more I can't be bothered to list. So good.

Hehe, Giles' "Bloody hell!" in The Yoko Factor is so good. I also love the little scene with Tara and Anya hiding out in Giles' bathroom ("...Nice bathroom." "Like the tile.") way more than I should.

Well, the "sexual repression is bad" moral loses some of its....moral-ness when you consider that Buffy and Riley having sex in the first place is the trigger for all the badness happening in the episode. It does come across as a bit "sex is bad"-ish, though I prefer to think of it as "Buffy having sex is bad"; PK and I have talked at length about how Buffy should never, ever have sex because it just never ends well for anyone.

Yeah, it's pretty much universaly agreed that Primeval isn't a very good ep (I can't dislike it, though, simply because of Giles' "...it's a magic gourd" line), and I'm so glad Restless exists to make the S4 finale a good one. Gaaaah, that episode is so good <333 (tell Shadey he's wrong wrong wrong) :3

Glory is craaaaazy. I always thought it was weird that the Big Bad was introduced so early on in the season. I think it works, though. Mostly. God, I hate that scene with the appallingly CGI'd snake, though. That was worse than the one in Band Candy DX
I think Glory's minions are the cutest things in the whole world~

And also, I take back what I said above about the bikes being the most absurd moment in Buffy and raise you that scene in Spiral that, not to spoil anything, is the closest Buffy ever comes to an actual car chase With knights and horses. And Winnebagos.

I was really confused when Dawn was brought in; I thought she'd been living with Buffy's dad or something, too. I wish I liked Dawn more; I can only stand her in scenes with other characters I like (you _have_ to love her scenes with Tara, and the few she has with Xander are pretty sweet, too).

I wish Miss Kitty Fantastico was in more episodes; she was epic.

I'm glad you enjoyed seasons 6 and 7, Cirrus; again, I wish I liked everything; if I loved every series as much as I loved 4 and every character as much as I love Tara, I'd probably explode from joy.
But, uh, I have some handy motivational posters that sum up my feelings for me: Series 6 (though, that said...), and Series 7. X3



Spoiler: oh god, probably everything.



Aww, it's a shame you don't care so much about Xander and Anya; I was devastated at the end of Hell's Bells and, if I were a vengence demon, would have been all too keen on evicerating Xander for leaving poor Anya for such a stupid reason )< Why are Willow and Xander so awful to their girlfriends? ):

I find sex scenes on TV uncomfortable to watch most of the time. I can _read_ pretty much anything (okay, that's a complete lie), but I get very squicked out by watching anything, and there were times in series 6 where the episode would suddenly cut to a gratuitious Spuffy sex scene and I'd just cover my eyes in reflex. I spent pretty much all of Where the Wild Things are feeling distincttly uncomfortable, too. 
I love how tastefully done Willow and Tara's "intimate moments" are.

Please, by all means, post your essay-ramble. I'm not particularly emotionally invested in Buffy's conquests, but I'm still more than happy to read about/discuss them :)
(and if it means a post here that's longer than mine, I'm all for it)

"Spike kind of sucked a little in late S6 because he'd lost all the badassness and hilarity that made 5 so damn brilliant." Well, he also sucked because of the whole attempted rape thing. Gyuuuh, that scared me so, so much. x.x

Again, it's so sad you didn't care for Anya in S7, because it was easily my favourite season for her, and Anya was one of the few things I really liked about it. Well, pretty much the only thing. Andrew was fun, but I resent him terribly from S6, and while there were a few really funny moments (the Chinese Potential X3), it wasn't enough to combat the whole seriousness of everything else.
Well, I also loved Principal Wood - not as a character, but because he was played by DB Woodside, who played the President of the United States in series 6 of 24, and seeing him do stuff like go on dates with Buffy and sleep with Faith was absolutely freaking hilarious.

The magic addiction thing _was_ stupid. Very much so. It's been said time and time again that it'd've worked so much better to have Willow get addicted to power, and have magic be the vessel through which that power manifested - it's been established time and time again that Willow likes having power and control, and it'd make so much more sense than her, um, getting high and smashing up cars (oh, how I wish I were joking).

I didn’t like Dark Willow too much, but honestly at that point, I was too traumatised over losing Tara to really care about much else. It could’ve been the best series finale ever and I wouldn’t’ve really cared because I was pretty much entirely emotionally numb and, I’ll say it again, I get disturbingly attached to fictional characters. O.o

…I want to know, when Willow got rid of all her magical stuff, what happened to the Doll’s Eye Crystal. Joss loves referencing earlier stuff, and bringing objects you’ve forgotten about back (see: The Gift), but we never know what happened to it, and it breaks my heart to think that it just got thrown away; it was Tara’s family heirloom, after all ): 

While I agree that the Wicca meeting was probably offensive to *actual* Wiccans, I always thought of it more as showing the hypocrisy that exists within groups like that – the parallels between practicing magic and homosexuality are clearly established (through Willow and Tara and Giles and Ethan XD), and I think it was more of a comment on how inclusive groups like that like to think they are, but if you don’t meet a certain set of criteria, you quickly become ostracised. 
(or it might be that I’ve been studying Foucault too much)
It was a shame that the religion aspect of W&T’s Wicca-ness wasn’t explored more, I agree. That said, Willow’s Jewish and, except for a few comments and her putting stones on Tara’s grave, we never really see her do anything remotely related to Judaism.

It’s not just that I don’t like Spike so much that I didn’t comment on his death, it’s also that he – I hope this isn’t too spoilery, but I can’t put spoiler tags within spoiler tags – he comes back. In Angel, yes, but he still returns. And his death wasn’t (I thought) as sad as Anya’s; he got to say goodbye and realized that dying was something he needed and wanted to do, unlike Tara and Anya who, like I said earlier, were suddenly, unexpectedly ripped away from their loved ones in a moment of violence.

In the leadup to Chosen, it was established that everyone in Sunnydale left – I forget the reasoning (something like “the townspeople felt a massively dark power growing and decided to get the hell out”), but there’s a scene where Clem’s stuck in all the mass-exodus traffic, and the Scoobies and Potentials do a bit of looting when everyone’s gone (including stealing Jaffa Cakes XD).
It’s really sad that, with Sunnydale gone, Tara and Joyce’s (and presumably Jenny’s, though I don’t think we ever see a grave) graves have been destroyed, too ):

After reading a whole ton of comforting Tara!fic, I’m a little bit more at peace with the character’s responses to it. There’s a wonderful (eternally unfinished; last updated in ‘03) fic called Working Out The Kinks, where Buffy explains that rushing off to stop Willow murdering a human being is exactly what Tara would’ve wanted, rather than let Willow become a murderer because everyone was too busy mourning her, and I can’t help but agree.

Yeah, Joyce’s death and the beautifully, heartbreakingly portrayed reactions to it nearly make up for the unrealistic coping-with-death that happens with every other character. I understand that we can’t have an entire episode dealing the with aftermath of every character who dies, but the stark contrast about how life-altering Joyce’s death was for everyone, compared to Tara’s death pretty much only affecting Willow (again; what about Dawn?) was deeply annoying.

Haha, I forgot about that. We watched Intervention yesterday and all had a good giggle about the Buffybot saying how “Angel’s hair sticks up and it’s bloody stupid!” or similar. Jealous Spike is funny. As is the Buffybot. “You’re recently gay.” X3



(Sorry, Butterfree/PK)

Top 25 List? I’ll do a top 10 and then maybe expand it when I’m not falling asleep.

1. Hush
2. Doppelgangland
3. Once More, With Feeling
4. The Gift
5. Restless
6. New Moon Rising
7. Family
8. Who Are You?
9. The Body
10. Chosen

God, I favour the mid-seasons. That’s 1 from S3, 4 from S4, 3 from S5, 1 from S6 and one from S7. Except for Doppelgangland (which got 95), NMR (90), Family (75) and Chosen (92) they all got “Perfect” scores on CT.

And I will end this ridiculously long post _here._


----------



## Butterfree

> Well, the "sexual repression is bad" moral loses some of its....moral-ness when you consider that Buffy and Riley having sex in the first place is the trigger for all the badness happening in the episode. It does come across as a bit "sex is bad"-ish, though I prefer to think of it as "Buffy having sex is bad"; PK and I have talked at length about how Buffy should never, ever have sex because it just never ends well for anyone.


Well, conversely, the only reason any badness whatsoever happens is because of sexual repression; Buffy and Riley having sex only has negative consequences because very special circumstances are involved, and those very special circumstances include a history of sexual repression which on the other hand has direct negative consequences in and of itself that only happened to manifest themselves visibly when Buffy and Riley had sex. I mean, imagine that the episode was ever so slightly different. Instead of the sexually repressed, the house is haunted by the spirits of children who were simply unloved, and as a result they feed on love and friendship. The Scooby gang enters with all their love and friendship, and this gives the poltergeists food enough to start to wreak havoc. Would you interpret the moral of that as "love and friendship are bad"? Hardly.

Plus, Giles makes that whole rant about how the repression was bad and abusive and those children have probably grown into very disturbed adults. And who would you rather believe: Giles, who's just been _singing_, or the creepy old lady he's shouting at?

Of course, it is very true that Buffy should have learned by now that she and sex are very un-mixy things, and I can't believe I'm lengthily defending that episode, but it felt very notably pro-sex to me, especially for a show about teens.

Anyway, we watched six more episodes. I really wanted to like Family more than I did, since I'd been looking forward to learning more about Tara, but I really agree with the Critically Touched guy that her family was just so awfully one-dimensional that it didn't really work. Primarily, it just really feels like it could have been so much better with a bit more insight into their motives and beliefs, exactly what really happened to Tara's mother, and I was really, really hoping to see Cousin Beth waver at least a little in her resolve when the demon thing was proven wrong. Though really, that didn't quite make sense either. While Spike punching her to resolve it was amusing (although Tara is too adorable to be punched D:), it really doesn't work from a story perspective; how in the world does Spike's chip know whether what he's harming is human? I always assumed that it responded to the particular pattern of brainwaves that happens when he specifically decides to harm a human being, but it working as an omniscient demon-detector just doesn't make sense. I mean, technically it could be that he just thinks of Tara as human and therefore it hurts, but then why does everyone still just immediately go, "Oh, okay, so since Spike hurts when he hits her, obviously she is fully human" and never spare it another thought?

Plus, all of the Scoobies standing up for Tara as one of them, while sweet, felt kind of random since it wasn't really set up at all; earlier in the episode Buffy and Xander were just talking about how they don't really know Tara, and I'm not sure they even exchanged a single word with her until the end when she'd just caused them trouble by using that spell, which of course they shouldn't be condemning her for, but it shouldn't exactly be bringing them closer together either. While of course the Scoobies will always protect the innocent and it's definitely in character for them to defend Tara when her family suddenly shows up to take her away and tell her she's a demon, everyone suddenly being all "SHE'S IN OUR FAMILY NOW!", as opposed to just arguing that what the family are doing is simply wrong in general, seems to come kind of out of nowhere. :/ I mean, it's nice for Tara to get accepted into the group, but it could have been done a lot better.

I was also looking a lot forward to Fool for Love, what with supposedly being the definitive Spike episode and all, but while it had some good bits, I didn't really love it either. I'm kind of torn on how much I like Spike's backstory generally. On the one hand, it's difficult to take him seriously knowing he spent his human days writing bad poetry and got his "William the Bloody" name from that (nicknaming somebody "the Bloody" just because their poetry is "bloody awful" is a seeeerious stretch), and the woman who rejected him saying he's beneath her is just kind of over-the-top mean, considering apparently it's just because he's a bad poet. On the other hand, it does explain why he's so unvampirically romantic (for lack of a better word) in thinking, I suppose I can see how his human personality translated into his vampire personality when allowing for the same drastic change as between Angel with and without his soul, it's just fun to think of him hunting down everyone who ever mocked his poetry and driving railroad spikes through their heads in revenge, and regardless of the sensibility of the first "You're beneath me", it _does_ work when Buffy says it, and _ow_, does it sting. Nothing is more adorable than Spike sobbing.

Really, though, the main thing that bothers me about that episode is why Spike was telling her all that stuff in the first place. Exactly how did it help him make his point about how he killed those two slayers? It seems very odd for him to just needlessly decide to tell somebody he's just realized he has a sexual obsession with that he used to be this loser who wrote terrible poetry, and it seems kind of out of character for Buffy to just listen to it instead of telling him to get to the point already.

That said, Spike coming over with the rifle, seeing Buffy being distraught and just changing his mind to try to make her feel better was just adorable. So much so that even Shadey declared that Spike was the most adorable character on the show, surpassing even Miss Kitty Fantastico.

Um. Riley got himself bitten by vampires and left. I'm pretty much indifferent, really, but I liked Spike's part in it. He's so cute and pathetic these days. :3 And still funny, if not quite as much so as in season four.

And Anya is all "YAY MONEY :D" and it's fun.


----------



## Dannichu

Aww, I loved Family, and with the exception of a couple of people (both of whom love Tara as much as I do), nobody really seems to like it much. I agree it's not up to Joss' usual standards in terms of quality, but I just love it (my list of the top 10 _best_ Buffy episodes would be rather different to my top 10 _favourites_ listed above).

I agree that Tara's family are a little one-dimensional, but her father and brother were probably physically ("I'm gonna beat you down") and definetly emotionally abusive towards her, and not giving them positive, redeeming qualities (in the real world, let's face, it, child abusers aren't the most sympathetic people) didn't, I felt, detract from the episode in any serious way. Plus, they were more of a means to an end (showing Tara's home life, how she came to be like she is, etc.) rather than an end in themselves, so complaining they didn't have much of a personality is a little like complaining that the Gentlemen didn't have personalities. They were there. They were scary. They existed to push the story forward. 
With the lone exception of Joyce, not a single Scooby parent really has any personality past "drunken", "neglectful" or "abusive" anyways. I agree the episode could have been better if they'd explained their motives or whatnot a little better, but I don't think the ep suffered too much because they didn't.

I'm not sure how I feel about not knowing exactly what happened to Tara's mother; it's not made 100% clear, but you can get most the important stuff from reading between the lines; I (and most fanfiction writers) assume she had cancer or similar (from the "Was it sudden?" "No. And yes. It's always sudden." in The Body - I absolute freaking _adore_ that scene, by the way), and from Tara's smile as she talked about her mother in Hush ("She had a lot of power. Like you.") they were clearly close and Tara took the death very hard - "I did some pretty dumb stuff like lying to my family and staying out all night" (from Intervention). 
Plus, given how much the rest of her family feared/hated magic, it was something almost certianly shared just between the two of them, and once her mother died, having nobody to practice magic with only exacerbated her loneliness (see: the first verse of Under Your Spell), especially when she didn't have any actual friends (Donnie mentions to Tara that the Scooby Gang is "more people than you _met_ in High School."). 
Again, I think the impact it had on Tara and her personality is more important than the actual death itself; how Tara's mother died doesn't really matter within the context of Buffy; the fact that it hurt Tara and left her feeling scared and alone is what's important and relevant.

And that scene with everyone all together facing off against Mr Maclay is one of my favourite Buffy scenes ever <3 If I may (once again) refer to the top-100-moments list I love so much:



> Family is one of the chief themes in season 5, and it's epitomized in this moment. A large portion of the episode has been spent establishing how the Scoobies really just don't _get_ Tara. Buffy and Xander have no idea what to get her for her birthday, absolutely no one on earth (except Willow) gets her jokes, and as for Tara herself, she doesn't quite feel like she fits in. But when Tara needs them the most, the gang backs her up. They may not get her, but they're there for her all the same, just as they would be for anybody else. The line is drawn in this episode, clearly making the distinction between people who share your DNA and your true family, stating that in no uncertain terms they are not necessarily one and the same. That's a nice sentiment, and I love how this scene plays out, but that's not full reason why it's here.
> What really makes this moment for me is the fact that right then, the group of characters that will always and forever be the heart of the show for me come together.
> The Core of Buffy, Willow, Xander and Giles. The addition of Dawn. The Scoobie-in-laws, Tara and Anya. And even Spike, who is noticeable in his hovering on the fringes and declarations that he doesn't care. This is the group of characters that I love, that worked better and felt more right to me than any other, and it was a special thing to have it encapsulated in a definable moment.


I get your point, but, oh, I love it.

Okay, I'm done loving Family now.

Riley's getting bitten by vampires and such always struck me as a little odd. His leaving was quite well-done, though, and I'm fond of Xander's speech to her before she runs off to the helicopter. Xander doesn't get enough attention in the later seasons ):

Buffy's "You're beneath me" always reminds me so much of Faith's "Because it's wrong" in the church in Who Are You?. It's like it's said a few times in the episode and is even kinda humourous at the time, and then it's said later and it actually _means_ something and _oooh_. Or maybe that's just me.

Pathetic Spike annoyed me. I miss Kickass Spike from S2 and Wacky Neighbour Spike from S4. ):

So how's the rest of S5 going?


----------



## Butterfree

About Tara's mom, I was actually thinking in terms of the turning-into-a-demon thing. Didn't they say that it happened to her mom and that was supposed to be why Tara believed it? Which I was really confused by, because in The Body we see that Tara knew her mother, presumably after the age of twenty, and if the turning into a demon thing (explicitly stated to be physically visible, too) was a lie, Tara would therefore have known. Or maybe I'm just being really stupid and completely misunderstood something, which would explain a lot. @_@

I'm not precisely asking for redeeming qualities or personalities, more just... a bit of insight into why they became that way. I'm not even sure precisely why it bugs me we don't get any such thing, because you have a good point about bad guys usually not having much in the way of dimensions; I just know it _does_. Maybe I was just too excited to see it, because I read on TV Tropes (just before seeing the episode, too; I hate how spoilers hunt me down) that her family had this whole abusive repression of women going on and was maybe imagining something a bit... more. I don't know.

I really like how Xander's grown to often be quite insightful now, such as there when Riley was leaving; I love how he's developed from the goofy comic relief while still being very much himself.

Kickass Spike and Wacky Neighbour Spike were extremely entertaining, but what can I say? I like my fictional men on the pathetic side. As shown by how this development has been coinciding with my starting to find him kind of hot, even despite the still-rather-terrifying cheekbones, and that belt of his is weirdly sexy, and I'll stop now. <_<

So! I watched the rest of season five, and it was amaaaazing. First, I absolutely loved Crush and Buffy's general "wtf" reaction to finding out Spike's in love with her, Spike having Harmony dress up as Buffy and pretend to want to stake him and the whole "It's not a date! Do you want it to be?" shtick, although then he went creepy with the chaining Buffy up and threatening to kill her if she doesn't admit there's something "between them". I don't think Spike is quite grasping this whole one-sided thing. And I Was Made to Love You was just extremely amusing, and I cannot believe Amber Benson is dating Warren, and Spike getting him to make a Buffybot is just adorably desperate. And The Body is heartbreaking (what else is new?). And I adored Intervention because the Buffybot and everyone's reactions to her are hilarious ("the who whatting how with huh?") and Spike is all really, _really_ pathetic and desperate and gets beaten up and tortured by Glory, which is always nice ignore me, and then he refused to tell her about Dawn, which was adorable. And then Tara got mindsucked and it was all noooooo. ;_; It was really, really hard to watch her being insane when she's usually a pillar of maturity and reason.

The whole finale was just _epic_ and _perfect_ and probably my very favorite episode so far for a zillion different reasons. First, God, I wish I hadn't known that (and I'm spoilering this, because I do not want to be responsible for some new potential viewer flipping through this thread and finding out here) Buffy dies. It was still amazing, but it would have completely blown my mind if I hadn't known.

But still! Oh God I loved that episode and you will have to stop me because I am being way excited and incoherent even though it's been days since we watched it. First, freaking GILES whom I love indescribably! <3 He was being all morally ambiguous and wanting to kill Dawn to save the world! And Buffy wouldn't let him because she's cool like that! And they used Tara to lead them to Glory, which I had been thinking they should do, and Willow was cool and brought Tara back and it was amazing and fluffy and adorable. And Xander got to have an important part too, and they used the Dagon Sphere and the Buffybot! <3 And it really felt like it took all that stuff to take Glory down, and Spike went to help Dawn, which was sweet even though he didn't achieve much. And holy crap, GILES MURDERED BEN ffffff. I know that is not something normal people squee about, but that is one of my favorite things in the world, and his chilling little speech before it about how Buffy is a hero, not like _us_, and the fact he chose to _suffocate_ him instead of stabbing him or something felt really right, and foarwigaophrgpoahuregopaihreg GILES. <3

Yeah, I'll stop not making any sense now. It was amazing, and again, I really, _really_ wish I hadn't been spoiled because it would have been so much more powerful if I hadn't known, not that it wasn't pretty darn powerful anyway, and then Spike was all heartbroken and it was sad.

And then we started watching season six and we've just finished episode 18. First, Spike has been getting really creepy and it bugs me. D: He _still_ really doesn't get the whole one-sided thing, and I cringe every time he goes all RAR YOU LOVE ME BUT YOU JUST WON'T ADMIT IT. But I really like Buffy (the character) in season six; I love that the show actually bothered to treat resurrection not just as a cheap plot device to keep the series going but as something that has serious repercussions. Seeing Buffy deal with having been dead and being so completely lost and depressed is really interesting, and yes, that includes the Spike/Buffy, dysfunctionalness and all. I feel really sorry for both of them; it's so messed up, Buffy doesn't want it at all and is just using it to feel alive while for Spike it's pretty much the Buffybot all over again except with less love. (Which is especially painful when you consider that at the beginning of the season, Spike couldn't even look at the Buffybot precisely because it was just a hollow shell of Buffy pretending to like him, and, well...) It's all pretty twisted, but very interesting for the show in my opinion.

Once More, With Feeling is so much better in context! I never had any idea what half of it was on about, and just seeing the general state of all the character relationships makes it so much more satisfying to watch. I even think Shadey enjoyed it, despite his hatred of musicals; I don't think he could take Going Through the Motions very seriously (I can't really either, what with the dancing demons and Disney prince), but after that he made no deprecating comments, and in fact he seemed genuinely interested in the potential of the plot (he kept wondering if the singing would lead to Buffy revealing that she'd been in Heaven). So yay for that.

Tabula Rasa was brilliant; I was laughing pretty much throughout the entire memory-loss scene. Spike was Randy Giles and kept making all these "I'm sure you never showed me affection like that!" remarks, and they were all "Oh, God! I'm British!" and Buffy thought she seemed like a Joan. And hee, Willow and Tara were immediately attracted to each other. x3 I also really liked how they settled on calling Xander Alex, even though they knew his full name. And Giles and Anya thought they were a couple and he was leaving her. XD And the whole thing was just great. Except for Giles leaving. D:

Now, that episode brings us to Willow. I knew she'd be getting all dark-magic-addicted-y, but the drug metaphor got kind of "huh?" with that Rack guy. He's using magic to... make people high? I mean, being addicted to the feeling of power works, but it's kind of lame when it works _exactly_ like a drug. And it's kind of weird how her actual use of magic has completely stopped being relevant at this point, because it's all just Rack using magic on her, not her using her own magic. And it doesn't seem like it should be so addictive that she would go right after she promises Tara to go without magic for a week and do it again, especially after Tara had pointed out to her that forcing people to forget things is truly a violation of their mind. I thought the scene at the Bronze where she and Amy (I love that they brought her back finally) went nuts with magicking everything worked pretty well, because there it really was about the power thing, and I like how she's constantly tempted to do things with magic out of pure laziness because she's gotten so used to having the power to do things without manual work, but the high thing and the apparent actual physical addiction is kind of... odd.

That said, after she went cold turkey, I really like her again; she's showed a lot of strength of character maintaining her resolve for all this time, especially after Amy came and gave her all that power and I was sure she was about to go on a rampage or something. And she and Tara got back together and it's all yay. :D And Entropy was hilarious when Anya was trying to get everybody to wish evil on Xander and was trying to convince them to be man-hating because they're lesbians and they were all "We're more about the... girl-on-girl action." The Spike/Anya thing worked surprisingly well; I like how the show keeps showing you all these amusing parallels between how different characters are feeling.

And now I realize I skipped over Hell's Bells and Normal Again. I really didn't like Hell's Bells at first, or rather, it was very funny but I really disliked the "future-Xander" and the visions he showed the real Xander because it seemed lame and clichéd. That said, I always held on to the hope that, true to Buffy tradition, it would end up subverting it, and it did, so yay. :D But argh, Xander should just have called off the wedding, not the relationship! D: I'm sure he could have made her understand that he just wasn't ready for the eternal commitment thing even though he still loved her. It made me really sad, and then none of Entropy would have happened, which would have deprived us of a lot of hilarity, but they wouldn't have been hurting so much. D:

Normal Again was creepy. I loved how at the end when "Joyce" told Buffy to be strong and believe in herself, it made her realize "herself" was the Sunnydale Buffy, not the one in the institution, because that's basically what I'd been thinking. It was cool to see her manage to snap out of it like that, but also how willing she was to consider it thanks to all her depression and confusion and did I mention I really like Buffy this season?

I have a great urge to start psychoanalyzing Spike now. Darn you, club, for making me start talking about him. <_<


----------



## Keltena

Man, I'm totally behind on all the S5/S6 stuff... BUT I have one very meaningless thing to contribute here!



Spoiler: The Replacement



BOTH XANDERS WERE REAL OMG



also this line: "Xander seems to be a bad influence on himself..."

now I just want to know what the heck is up with freaking Dawn (I have this theory that she exists somehow as a result of Joyce's loneliness with Buffy off at college), but that episode was good enough that I don't really mind not learning anything about Dawn in it.

oh oh oh also! Dawn writing in her diary~ "Willow and Tara are both witches. They do spells together. One time I said maybe they could show me the kinds of things they do together... then Mom got really quiet and told me to go to my room. I guess her generation just doesn't get witchcraft."

god I love Dawn already, even if I have no idea what's going on with her.

Also Anya has been amazing for the entirety of S4 and she's still keeping it up. Squee.

P.S. Danni, I blame you entirely for spreading your Amber Benson crush to me. Fffft.


----------



## Dannichu

Spoiler: Family, late S5



_Aaaaaaah._ I get you. Yeah, the Tara's-mother-physically-turning-into-a-demon-thing is never explained, but I always just assumed she was taken away once a month (or whatever), but it still doesn't really make much sense in terms of Tara's mother not telling Tara about it. Point taken.

Given how far the Maclays come, the fact they're probably from a very rural area (Tara's horseriding, her isolation), and the massive distain for witchcraft doubling as a distain for lesbianism, I think the male Maclays and their hatred of magic/women/homosexuality were supposed to be like the deep south religious fundamentalists, in which case the explanation would simply be "they were raised to think like that". I'm grateful Joss didn't make the Maclays Bible-bashers, though; there's a character like that in S7 and it's more than a little heavy-handed. 
I do with they'd made Beth more interesting, though; the only reason I can see that she was there in the first place was that she was supposed to be an example of what a woman who believes the lies the men of her family tell her is like, and by extension, what Tara could have turned into, were it not for Willow et al, but it's a bit of a stretch.

Xander really does turn into some kind of relationship guru in the later seasons; he has a few deep conversations with Buffy and I really love them. I think it's sweet that he's getting more understanding while still remaining the Xander we know and love, but it irritates me that he doesn't seem to _get_ Anya as much as he should.

I don't mind Spike being pathetic (well, I miss his other incarnations, but it's not like I'm heartbroken now he's suddenly a weeping wreck of a man), it's just annoying (to me) that we see _so much_ of him being all pathetic and stuff. I'm not a big Spike fan (wish I was, but I'm just not) and all the episodes and arc about Spike just, well, bored me ):

I Was Made to Love You was a weird episode; the idea of making love-robots is deeply disturbing to me and I loathe Warren with a fiery, fiery passion, but, as I said earlier, I love the scene with Tara being sad about people's bad spelling online and Anya wanting to buy a gazelle so, so much. Willow and Xander girl-watching ("A girl like that isn't going to be alone for long." "_Definitely_ not.") is hilarious, as is Willow trying to backpeddle out of it when Tara hears.

Intervention is another of those episodes I love way more than everyone else. I absolutely adore the Buffybot and everyone's reactions to her too, and there were just so many brilliant scenes/lines in the ep; "I'm not sleeping with Spike. But I'm starting to think _you_ might be."/"You're recently gay!"/"How's your money?" "Fine, thanks for asking!"/"Willow wants to watch a historical documentary about Salem witch trials, which will only make her upset"/ ... and probably more I'm forgetting.

Spike and Tara both having massive suffering and still refusing to tell Glory about Dawn was incredibly sweet. Spike's torture was pretty horrible, and him not giving in was very awesome of him, and you can probably imagine how much I hate seeing Tara's hand get crushed and then being all whimpery when Glory describes, in detail, what it's like when your brain's sucked out, but the idea of telling Glory about Dawn obviously never even crosses her mind. And seeing her be all babbly and nonsensical just hurts to watch; the scene in The Gift where she slaps Willow across the face and then looks completely devastated afterwards breaks my heart ):

I know Spiral is completely wacky, but I love that scene with the knights all chasing after them in their Winnebago so, so much. Every time I watch it I laugh my face off.





Spoiler: The Gift



And The Gift is one of my absolute favourites, ever. There's not a single thing about it that's not perfectly done, and the CT guy is totally right in saying that the entire series as a whole was leading up to this one point. I grin like a nutter every time I see the "previously on" for the episode, with clips from just about every episode in the entire series (I squee at the Willow and Tara in Hush clip and giggle stupidly over the fraction-of-a-second appearance of The Cheese Man), and then Buffy's encounter with an ordinary vampire and the guy she saves telling her "You're just a girl" - which, arguably, is a sentiment the entire series was made to subvert.

I'm so, so sorry for spoiling Buffy's death for you; I had it ruined by OMWF, too, and I think it would've been so much better had I not known, too...
I just love the musical ep so much I have to show it to everyone, and then I don't realize how spoilery it is until it's too late D:

Firstly, I love anything, regardless how cheesy (and this wasn't cheesy in the slightest), when all the characters come together and all play a role in taking down the Bad Guy. And the way everyone came together and used their strengths and situations to take down Glory, bit by bit; Tara leading them to the base, Willow reversing the mind-suck, the Buffybot being a diversion, Xander and his wrecking ball, Anya and her baseball bat, Spike going up to save Dawn, Giles taking out the threat of Glory ever returning and, of course, Buffy sacrificing herself for the world/Dawn. So, so beautifully done.

And all the references! I'd completely forgotten about Olaf's Hammer and the Dagon Sphere until they were brought back and proved pretty much instrumental in taking Glory down. Anya refusing to run from apocalypses anymore because she's human now and is beginning to understand just what it means. Willow and Tara joining hands a la Hush to clear the path for Buffy. I'd even completely forgotten about Doc, and was completely surprised when he came back (the fact he's the Wizard of Oz in Wicked still means I can't take him seriously, but it was still cool). And all the talk of blood all season finally making sense.

I can't think of a single thing that could have made it better. Every time I see it or, hell, talk about it, I just love it more <3333





Spoiler: various early-mid S6 episodes



Yeah, I agree that while you can appreciate OMWF from a musical POV while knowing little/nothing about Buffy, it's so much better when you actually see how it fits into the series; one of the best things (I think) about the ep is how it's not just a musical extravaganza gimmick; it moves the plot forward in leaps and bounds, and choosing the episode where characters' deepest emotions are laid bare through the medium of song was just perfect for the episode in which Buffy told everyone the truth.

(pretend this is in a quotebox) "And the whole thing was just great. Except for Giles leaving. D:"

What about _Tara_ leaving? ;~; That scene at the end always breaks my heart; they've spent the entire episode showing how "meant to be" they are, even if Willow's supposed to have a boyfriend, they're just drawn together and neither can resist, but then the spell is broken and Tara realizes that being in love and being completed by Willow just isn't enough and she has to leave. 
Giles' leaving hurts terribly; he's one of my absolute favourite characters, but his leaving always seemed, to me, to be a little out of character; I feel like Buffy, confused and hurt that he chose _now_ to leave Buffy all on her own.
But Tara's leaving was needed, and while it meant the breaking up of my absolute favourite couple, I totally understand that it was what she had to do, and respect her massively for it; there's a deep irony in Tara having the emotional strength and courage to leave Willow and to not put up with being abused any longer as a direct result of relationship with Willow in the first place.
In Family, Tara didn't have the strength to leave her abusive family; it took Willow's encouragement and the Scoobies standing up for her to be able to tell her family she wasn't going back to them. Willow was the one who taught her that she deserves to be loved and isn't worthless or whatever else her family had her believe, and it was only through that that Tara would have been able to leave at the end of Tabula Rasa. 

Lots of people think Tara was underdeveloped as a character, and while I agree she didn't get enough screentime, she develops and grows as a character just as much, if not more, than all the other characters.

And Dawn just running away upstairs when Tara tried to hug her goodbye. It physically _hurts._ D:

Yup, I (and pretty much the entire Buffy fandom) totally agree with you on the WTF?-ness of the magic-as-drugs metaphor. It's way overdone and doesn't make a lot of sense. There were so many ways they could have done it, but the way they actually chose just feels like a "drugs are bad" message every bit as subtle as "beer bad" and the seriousness of what's happening to Willow gets undermined.

I think Xander leaving Anya was completely silly and I actually hate him for hurting her so much. One of the things I hate about season 6 is how much it had Xander hurting Anya and Willow hurting Tara, and it just makes me resent Willow and Xander, and not liking the series' main characters is never good.

Normal Again was absolutely excellent. When the Geek Trio sent another monster after Buffy, I was thinking "Oh god, not another Gone", but it was so, so good. I love how the ending implied that the whole of Buffy could be the paranoid delusions of a girl in a mental hospital, but Buffy believed in her friends (or something less cheesy) in the end. 

I do really like Entropy. In season 6, Anya makes out with all the main male characters XD And Anya trying to get all the other characters to wish ill on Xander is so, so funny, and I love that scene with Anya, Willow and Tara too; "If you love men so much, _go love men!_". And the ending is just awwwww.



Is Entropy the last episode you've seen? ...I can't make any kind of comment at all without ruining stuff DX

I will simply say am very anxious to hear what you have to say about the next episode/the rest of the season.


----------



## Dannichu

Aaaah, Salamander, I completely missed your post, which means I spent _an hour_ typing out that massive response above. When I fail all my tests this year, I'm blaming this club XD

Aaaah, I loved The Replacement. Series 4 was so Xander-less, it was lovely to see him get his own episode, and, like all Xander episodes, it was funny as hell. It's lovely to see him getting back on his feet and actually finding a path in his life.

Hehe, I love everyone's theories about Dawn. They always make my inital assumption (she was off living with Buffy's dad and conveniently nobody ever mentioned her) seem really stupid XD

Dawn's inner thoughts are fun. Haha, the bit you quoted, with her wanting W&T to teach her stuff, is so, so funny, I love it. There's a really cute irony in that nobody tells Dawn that Willow and Tara are together romantically (the idea of lesbians are too much for a 13-year-old to handle??), but later she becomes the biggest T/W fan in the world. It's adorable.
I'm so glad you like Dawn; season 5 is so much better if you do.

I didn't.... not dislike, but didn't really care too much about Anya in S4, but from mid-S5 onwards, I adored her to bits. Really loving the characters makes the series so much more fun :D 

What did you think of the dream episode?

Aww, she's so _easy_ to crush on, though! I got my Twitter account primarily just so I could stalk her (in a non-creepy way, of course) and she's just so cool <3 For example, at the moment, she's selling limited edition Tara figurines to raise money for a charity that feeds abandoned children/battered women/homeless people/etc. So awesome.


----------



## Butterfree

> Spoiler: Intervention
> 
> 
> 
> Intervention is another of those episodes I love way more than everyone else. I absolutely adore the Buffybot and everyone's reactions to her too, and there were just so many brilliant scenes/lines in the ep; "I'm not sleeping with Spike. But I'm starting to think you might be."/"You're recently gay!"/"How's your money?" "Fine, thanks for asking!"/"Willow wants to watch a historical documentary about Salem witch trials, which will only make her upset"/ ... and probably more I'm forgetting.


Oh, yes, that episode had _so_ many fun lines and was just generally hilarious. I cannot believe not everyone loves it; it's definitely one of my favorites.



> Spoiler: Tough Love-The Gift
> 
> 
> 
> Spike and Tara both having massive suffering and still refusing to tell Glory about Dawn was incredibly sweet. Spike's torture was pretty horrible, and him not giving in was very awesome of him, and you can probably imagine how much I hate seeing Tara's hand get crushed and then being all whimpery when Glory describes, in detail, what it's like when your brain's sucked out, but the idea of telling Glory about Dawn obviously never even crosses her mind. And seeing her be all babbly and nonsensical just hurts to watch; the scene in The Gift where she slaps Willow across the face and then looks completely devastated afterwards breaks my heart ):


Oh, yes. Tara is the kind of character who is so utterly sweet and nice and adorable that it's impossible to watch her being hurt or... damaged, for lack of a better word. D: I want to hug her. Constantly. Whyyy must Joss keep having her be hurt? ;_; He can hurt Spike more instead!



Spoiler: The Gift



I'm not sure, but I _think_ I knew about Buffy dying at the end of season five before you showed me OMWF. And even if you hadn't shown me OMWF, I've been reading all those Critically Touched reviews that use every opportunity in every season to talk about how everything is setting up for Buffy's eventual death in The Gift, so I think it would have been thoroughly hammered into my head by that point anyway.



Yeah, I love how OMWF is a ridiculously important episode, plot-wise; the singing-curse is actually used to bring out really important things in a way that couldn't have been done the same way if it _hadn't_ been a musical episode. It's awesome.



> Spoiler: Tabula Rasa
> 
> 
> 
> What about _Tara_ leaving? ;~;





Spoiler: Season 6



Well, I didn't actually feel like Tara was leaving in the same way since I knew she would continue to be around in several more episodes (you'd mentioned some good Tara episodes that had yet to come at this point, as had Critically Touched), while Giles was actually flying out of the country and I had no idea if we'd _ever_ see him again. Plus, Giles is still my favorite character and I like it when he's around. D: I don't get his sudden leaving thing.

Tara taking her stuff and Dawn running upstairs and Willow crying was still heartbreaking, though. And I really agree with you on the wonderful confidence growth Tara has had this season.



And now I'm randomly musing on the fact that even though Tara and Oz aren't particularly alike in personality, I feel almost exactly the same way about them, namely that they are such completely sweet and adorable people and I want them to be real so I can hug them and hang out with them and marry Oz and I'd totally marry Tara too if I swung that way. Except Oz is a werewolf and that comes with some serious issues, but hey. They're not the most _interesting_ characters on the show to me, but they're just so lovable. <3

So anyway, we watched the final four episodes of season six.



Spoiler: Those four episodes



I actually came to really like the Trio as villains; they seemed kind of lame and silly at first, but then they went from "pathetic, annoying and creepy but mostly harmless" to "kinda disturbing" to full-on evil (well, in Warren's case, anyway). I had deduced from some vague comment you made that the episode where Tara died had Amber Benson in the opening credits, so I knew what was coming as soon as I saw her there in the opening of Seeing Red, and I figured the Trio would probably be the ones to kill her somehow since they were being set up as the main villains for the time being, but I was still just utterly shocked when Warren suddenly arrived there with a _gun_ and just started _shooting_ and aaaaa. ;_; The fact the show never uses guns gives it a lot of additional impact now when it suddenly does. And Tara just died immediately and couldn't say goodbye or anything! ;_; And aaaaaaaaaaa it was so heartbreaking when Willow just completely broke down. If anything was going to make her turn back to black magic, it was that. And what the hell, Amber Benson is honestly dating Warren? That'll make nice dinner conversation. "Oh, he killed me in _Buffy_ and was subsequently murdered gruesomely by my girlfriend. Pass the sauce?"

And GILES. <3 Oh, wow, seeing him burst through that door was just ridiculously _awesome_. "I'd like to test that theory." We both cheered.

Giles bursting out laughing when Buffy told him she was having sex with Spike was gold. A bit earlier in that scene, we realized that we seemed to have accidentally pressed something that slightly slowed down the video and made the voices deeper, which sounded mildly odd on Giles but _really utterly ridiculous_ on Buffy when she finally spoke, so we both giggled uncontrollably at that, closed the video and started it up again, and then we happened to skip _exactly_ to where Giles burst out laughing. I swear I thought for a second that the deepened voices had actually been intentional and Giles was really laughing at that.

And their whole laughing fit was quite amusing, although during that whole time I was wondering why the hell they were leaving Willow there in bonds that they knew wouldn't last forever without even keeping an eye on her. I loved how it was part of the plan to make Willow steal Giles' pure magic and have that appeal to her remaining humanity, and Xander there at the end was just sweet. And throughout the latter half of the last episode I was really panicky because I thought they were about to kill Giles too and was like "NO! YOU ALREADY KILLED TARA! YOU CAN'T KILL GILES TOO!" but thankfully he lived, so that's all good. Except for the "already killed Tara" part. D: You can't kill her _now_, when she's just gotten back together with Willow and they're all ridiculously happy and adorable and Dawn is being all squeey about it! Oh, you cruel, cruel Joss.

Spike's attempted rape of Buffy was really uncomfortable to watch. The guy needs help. Or a soul, I guess; I don't know how much of his issues is soullessness and how much is just his messed-up self, but hopefully the getting-a-soul part will help him at least somewhat with that. I liked how disturbed he was by it himself, though, and the fact it apparently scared him enough to make him want to get his soul back of all things. Hopefully interesting things will be done with this in season 7.





Spoiler: Season 6



Yeah, the main characters have all been hurting one another a lot, haven't they? Buffy uses Spike, lies to her friends about both that and where she was until they resurrected her, and later beats up and tries to kill everyone when she thinks they're figments of her imagination; Willow violates Tara's mind and then everybody's before going on a murderous rampage; Xander leaves Anya at the altar; Giles leaves everyone behind to go to England; Anya has sex with Spike; Spike tries to rape Buffy; Tara leaves Willow. Good God, there's a lot of hurt this season. It is so, so depressing.



EDIT: I was just randomly looking through the script of Once More, With Feeling, and this made me giggle:



> Giles and Anya are going over her ledgers, Tara and Willow off in the corner stocking jars. They're very touchy and giggly, basking in each other this morning. (Tara and Willow, not the other two.)


Am I alone in suspecting this bit might have inspired the fact Giles and Anya were assumed to be a couple in Tabula Rasa?


----------



## Dannichu

Psssh, it's 4am and I have a 9am lecture, but who cares?!

Joss knows how to make everything he does hurt as much as possible, which is, I think, why Tara ends up getting hurt so much; I read somewhere that "PWIP", an acronym for "Put Willow In Peril", was a device the writers used in the early seasons whenever they wanted a big emotional reaction from the audience, and, in later seasons, I'm convinced they moved onto Tara.
While I'm quite obviously not a fan of the Tara-abuse, I must give props to the writers for being able to inflict more or less every kind of horrible treatment possible onto the poor girl and not make her seem useless and "princess in need of rescuing"-y.

Ah, okay. I feel marginally less guilty now.



Spoiler: Tabula Rasa



Stupid Giles leaving )< I kinda get why it had to happen for plot reasons (though I'm sure they could have worked their way around it), but I've tried and tried and just can't understand it from a character perspective. I miss Giles when he's not around, too ;~;



You can have Oz and I'll have Tara :D



Spoiler: Final 4 episodes of S6



I never liked the Trio as villians; their descent into actual evilness was well-done, but I just hated them so much (well, mostly Warren), I just didn't like them on the screen. Grr.
I really hate Mutant Enemy et al for putting Amber in the credits only in her final episode; partly because it was just cruel to the viewers; I'd been spoiled and knew what was coming, but if I hadn't, I'd've just assumed that since she and Willow had gotten back together she'd be more of a main character and then having her killed after getting all my hopes up would have actually _killed me_, and also because having Amber as a "special guest star" all the time and not crediting her as a proper cast member (especially in episodes like OMWF and Family) seemed so stupid.

But in addition to the fact they killed Tara in the first place, I (and others) have major issues with _how_ they killed her, and (my love of the character aside) the fact that they killed one of the two positive gay characters in the show _and_ had the other go crazy and evil as a direct result. I make everyone read this.

Yup, they actually are dating. Amber goes to fan conventions and stuff all the time, and Adam comes with her some of the time, and often fans who come to see Amber are really cold towards him, because they share my inability to separate the actors from their characters and are all "You killed Tara )<".
I'll admit that when I rewatched the episode of House where Adam Busch was a clinic patient, I was very much "Hah! You should be sexually attracted to cows and/or your stepmother, it serves you right!" because I am a very messed-up individual.



Actually, quite a few Buffy alumni have appeared in House in one way or another; Warren's a clinic patient, Doc (the creepy tongue man, aka The Wonderful Wizard - that's _still_ funny) was the main patient in Informed Consent (the old guy who nearly got eaten by his own rats), Michelle Trachtenberg plays a main patient; an immunocompromised girl who is a little whiny and annoying and pretty much exactly like Dawn, and one of the four guys in Beer Bad was played by Kal Penn, aka Kutner. And I think there's someone else I'm forgetting.



Spoiler: Okay, back to spoiling the end of S6



Giles' entrance in what I think was Two To Go was SO EPIC. I think it's actually impossible to watch that scene and not cheer - I did, and I was still emotionally dead from seeing Tara get killed. And the writers were awesome for keeping his name out of the credits at the beginning because he was absolutely the _last_ person I expected to see right then. Apparently the writers can use actors names in the credits for both good _and_ evil and okay I'll give it a rest now.

Haha, your slowing down the video-thingy is hilarious XD I really enjoyed the laughing scene, too; it gave the episode just enough levity to stop it actually being physically soul-crushing.

The attempted rape scene was absolutely _horrible._ Cirrus and I discussed earlier in the thread how just acting out the scene really freaked poor James Marsters out, and he has since vowed to never do anything like that again.

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of all the hurting of one another that goes on in S6. It's like the Scooby breakup of S4 only way, way worse. I can assure you that S6 is as dark as Buffy ever gets and that S7 is a bit more happy, but obviously with everything left over from S6, it's not exactly hugs and puppies.


----------



## Minish

OMG onslaught of sudden posts! I have 9000 of my NaNoWriMo to _very_ urgently write, so I'm sort of just replying to the first few posts since my last reply, but I'm sure I'll have more to say in response to the other posts, so yeah >_> Will do that later if I finish my Nano soon, don't want to fall out of the discussion XD;

Buffy's speech in "Family" kind of annoyed me. It seemed rather corny and I agree with Butterfree on it seeming kind of out of the blue. I like it if it was like the Scoobies had a chance to either take Tara in fully or leave her out, and just chose the first route, because otherwise... it was so spontaneous. They wouldn't have called Oz family in that way and they knew him way longer, he was never a fully accepted Scooby and they were all closer to him than they were with Tara at that point. Maybe it's just because I really liked Oz (except when Veruca came along, dear _God_ she was aggravating in so many ways) that I think that last part. XD But argh, the Family speech (hehe, the name of the episode _and_ the speech subject... um, I'll shut up now) is something that probably influences my liking of Tara or lack thereof.

Her family did _not_ help. I agree with the things you said, Dannichu, and hadn't thought of them before, but even so, they weren't even that scary to me. They were so, so stand-alone. I know that they were indeed only there for one episode, but come on, they were the family of a major character. They're also never mentioned again, and Tara seems like she adapted way too fast to not ever seeing them again. Plus, they just made her feel even weaker than she already was. I know that Tara was supposed to be a more feminine, 'believable' character or whatever, but I just can't admire her like I can Buffy.

I also marathoned 6 and 7, so they seem like one big massive plot thing. I don't think I'll rewatch any episodes from late 6 or any of 7 unless I really feel the need to; they were paced rather weirdly even without being marathoned, and when you compare it to say, seasons 2 and 5 which imo were paced really, really well, it's just hard to rewatch them.

5 feels more split up for me because I watched each as an episode, rather than as a massive big season, so that's probably another reason why I love it so much.

Amber Benson. Is dating. Warren's actor. Oh dear God. Is it wrong to just find that very, very creepy? ...D:

I never really hated Riley, I'm just like you Dannichu, in finding him boring. All of Buffy's random boyfriends (Parker, I sort of count Ford who was the most annoying guy ever especially as I didn't like "Lie to Me", and a few other random dudes, I think) and Riley was just like another one of those, except that... he stayed. For ages. And was nicer.

Rewatching S2 is making me realise that Angel is actually not as boring as I remembered. He has a _lot_ of very awesome dialogue -- I think I started to actually dislike him when he randomly showed up in Pangs and Chosen, and since I haven't seen any of AtS, when he was there it was very much 'WTF?' from me. But he was very fun in S2, especially in episodes like "Halloween", which I watched last night. Fwee, fun times <3 Except Buffy's very lol-worthy accent, that is.

I don't hate S4! While I was watching it, I very much thought it would be my favourite season (5 booted it, and then 2 went up to second place after a re-evaluation) because it _is_ very very funny. I never found Pangs all that funny myself, but Spike was hilarious. I just love watching him run around under a blanket from the sun (oh God when Riley finds him knicking Buffy's clothes in... I dunno, the episode after Fool for Love maybe? And he just pushes him outside, and Spike is all like "Pull me back in you sod, I'm starting to sizzle!" in the best way EVER oh God I love him <3)

And any scene with Giles and Spike together is just... ultimate love. Maaaaybe because they're my favourite characters. XD (I find it amusing how they're both male, both British, both singers, both left-handed...) Tabula Rasa and Something Blue will never stop being funny because of them. _Never_.

I actually like Dawn. A bit, anyway. She did annoy me with being all centre-of-the-universe all of the time, but she and Xander are adorable together, so yeah. That probably means I ship them, but I suck at finding good fic so I'll never persue it. X3



Spoiler



The attempted rape scene was horrifying and is very, very difficult to watch, but it did add a lot of depth, which I felt Spike/Buffy needed very much. It proved that yes, Spike was still dangerous and yes, _was_ still soulless at that point, and I loved (loved as in, thought it was a good idea while watching, rather than actually... you know, liked it happening. I'm sure you know what I mean) and it made me like Spike/Buffy again. Which sounds very, very weird. I know, I know. But it just redeemed it and proved that it wasn't just *wince* getting overly fanservicey. But I still think that the sex scenes were intentionally uncomfortable to prevent it being fanservicey (even so, the amount of sex scenes there were, argh...)

Principal Wood really did annoy me. I found his character both boring and a little dislikeable, to be honest; his vendetta was really irritating after a while. And OMG Spike didn't kill him, I think I actually squeed at that point (in the same way Butterfree squeed for Giles killing Ben, I have no idea why I found it so squeeful, but I certainly did squee!).

I looove the idea of Willow being addicted to power, _not_ to magic. Especially when the answer given to her was 'stop magic for a while' to make it stop, because it totally wasn't about magic being the only harmful aspect of that. What if she replaced magic with _actual_ drugs? I don't think I'll ever really get the whole S6 magic thing.

That's why I didn't like the Wiccan groups, Dannichu -- it was so unlike the show to use a minority of a group (the people that are stupidly inclusive) as representing the whole group, especially as most people watching won't have had a clue what Wicca is. It was so disappointing to see it just backing up yet another stereotype, and then not explaining the use of Wicca like, ever. The only thing I'll ever like is that Jenny was a technopagan (though, wtf gypsies. That was so contrived, why couldn't Jenny just be a normal person who taught at Sunnydale?).



(super big spoiler for S7)Yeah, I know about Spike coming back. When I get to watch S5, that BETTER be explained really, really well...

Yaaaaay Butterfree practically agrees with me on everything about S5 :D It makes me so happy when other people like that season so much! It really doesn't get the love it deserves, 2 and 3 seem to really overshadow 4 and 5, which were really awesome in their own way. GILES KILLING BEN I loved that so, so much. And I love how Giles wasn't personally affected by it afterwards, he knew he had to do it and I've always loved him for being that way.

Tabula Rasa love, whoo! Once again, Giles and Spike totally made that episode. And is it totally wrong that I... kind of liked the idea of Giles/Anya? Anya in TR, anyway, maybe not normal Anya and _especially_ not S5 Anya. I knew it would happen (though I got misinformed that Giles/Anya would be an actual couple later on in like S7 or something) and it horrified me, but I kind of enjoyed seeing it. They were adorable together! ...even if ASH found it uncomfortable to do X3

I didn't dislike Hells Bells so much as I disliked Anya's reaction and recovery from it (until Selfless). And I already knew Xander would leave her at the altar D:

I adored Normal Again. I thought it was very, very clever and I'm so glad they kept the ending ambiguous. I like the idea that Sunnydale could be all a figment of Buffy's imagination. In a... kind of weird way.

Phew. Kind of a dumb post, because I still have to read the three last posts. >_>

Oh, and my top 10 would go something like this:

1. Fool for Love
2. Graduation Day, Pt. 2
3. Once More, With Feeling
4. Something Blue
5. Tabula Rasa
6. The Body
7. The Wish
8. The Gift
9. Hush
10. Who Are You?

Though to be honest, ignore the order. I don't _really_ think Fool for Love is favourite episode material, but then again, there's nothing I could replace it with and feel right. Something Blue and Tabula Rasa are sort of beloved favourites rather than 'best episodes', but whatever, I love them too much for them to go. X3

Special mentions go to Innocence, Becoming Pt. 2, Sleeper, Lies My Parents Told Me, School Hard, The Dark Age, Restless and a ton of others that would make up the rest of my Top 25. XD


----------



## Butterfree

Somehow I managed to have a dream last night about working in the costume department for Buffy where we were having Amber Benson try on this Tara dress and she looked ridiculously pretty in it and I spent about ten minutes just standing there going "YOU ARE SO RIDICULOUSLY PRETTY RIGHT NOW OH MY GOD." Yes, I swear this was my dream, not yours. I have no idea.



Spoiler: season six



Yeah, it's silly how Amber Benson never got properly into the opening credits, even though she was around for half of the fourth season, all of the fifth, and almost all of the sixth. Season five should at least have made her a regular, and putting her there in the episode she dies is just mean. D:

I sort of half-agree with that article - it _is_ annoying to see the lesbian couple be the one torn apart by a death and going evil, but at the same time, they had clearly been setting up for Willow to go evil or at least power-hungry from way before Tara even came into the picture, and the sheer tragic, heartbreaking pointlessness of Tara's death (Warren wasn't trying to kill her or hurt her, wasn't aiming at her, probably didn't even know she _existed_) was an important part of the process of making Willow snap. I can come up with the possibility of Willow _thinking_ Tara was dead even though she somehow wasn't and therefore going on a rampage only to be subsequently stopped by the still-alive Tara, and I'm sure it could have been pulled off without Tara's death in other ways (though I doubt any of them could have the same amount of emotional impact), but I can't really agree with the idea that Willow shouldn't have gone bad - it's an important and integrated enough part of the overall story of the series that if I were Joss Whedon and wanted to eliminate the evil lesbian cliché from a basic draft of the story, I'd sooner ditch the lesbian part than the evil part. :/

So, in short, in my mind there are alternatives (if not as effective) to dead lesbian Tara, but the only real alternative to evil lesbian Willow would have been evil straight Willow, which would have deprived us of Willow/Tara altogether. And the dying-just-after-lesbian-sex bit just strikes me as way post hoc ergo propter hoc. Lying to fans about it is just cruel, though.





> and one of the four guys in Beer Bad was played by Kal Penn, aka Kutner


Hee, we giggled so much at that. In my headcanon, Kutner started out with beer, then moved on to weed, befriended Harold and changed his name to Kumar, finally went to med school after being enlightened by their adventures with Neil Patrick Harris, heard of Gregory House, and eventually got onto his team. 



Spoiler: House season 5



And... then it was all too much for him and he committed suicide. I admit I still haven't figured that one out.



There are definitely others; half of the time when some one-off character appears on Buffy, Shadey goes "Wait! Where have I seen that person before?" and we look them up on IMDb and usually it turns out they were a patient on House sometime.



> Cirrus and I discussed earlier in the thread how just acting out the scene really freaked poor James Marsters out, and he has since vowed to never do anything like that again.


Aww, really? That's adorable. I want to hug him now.


----------



## Dannichu

Yaaay Cirrus I've missed you here :D

Guh, I haed Vercua, too. I missed Wild at Heart when I watched S4 for the first time; my friends' disc was all messed up, so I had to come back and watch Wild at Heart, The Initiative, Beer Bad and Pangs after I'd bought the DVD boxset (so I think I was partway through S5), so I was really confused about how Oz actually left at the time (I mean, I'd gathered enough to have New Moon Rising make sense, but didn't really know who Veruca was, etc.), and I really, _really_ didn't like her. Still, props to the writers for coming up with a semi-plausible way to write Seth out in just one (two, if you count NMR) episode.



Spoiler: Family



I didn't find Tara's family particularly scary in themselves (well, Donnie threatening her made me feel a bit uncomfortable), but it was Tara's reaction to them that made it for me; the almost frightened "Yes sir" and the clearly uncomfortable hug and the return of her stutter tells us lots about them without them actually having to do anything. But I'll also admit that them actually doing something probably would've made the episode flow better and probably make more sense.



Yup, I can't really see myself rewatching the end of S6/most of S7 either; I've seen Chosen a few times, and Selfless and Storyteller, but that's about it. Compared to half the episodes in S4 which I've seen so many times I just about know them by heart. I'm glad I watched them so I know what happens in terms of Buffy canon, but in my head, Buffy the series ended with The Gift (even if it does mean no musical ep D:).

I think most of the resentment towards Riley comes from either a) hatred of The Initiative in general, which, let's be honest, wasn't the most interesting story arc, or b) because some people are hardcore Buffy/Angel or Buffy/Spike fans.
I never really liked Angel much in Buffy (I agree that him in Pangs was a bit WTFish, but I adored him in Chosen), but he's so much fun in AtS, mostly because he's not being all broody over Buffy because she's not there.

Buffy's accent in Halloween _was_ LOL-worthy. XD Nearly as good as Angel's Irish one.

Hehe, my favourite Spike moment in Pangs is definitely "You made a BEAR?!", but I think that's because it's reached inside-joke status with me and some friends.

Hm. You're right; _nobody_ writes Dawn/Xander. I had a quick look at the Buffy fanfiction sites I freqeunt, and the only one I could find was, uh, NC-17-rated (here). Thanks to Buffy, my fic-finding skills have improved, and I _keep_ finding W/T fics I haven't read before, which is awesome because I've been finding and reading them for over a year now, and I get through a _lot_ of fic. There are whole sites dedicated to exclusively W/T fic; finished fics, uber fics, even (haha) D/s fics.



Spoiler: Seeing Red



The AR scene just scared me so much I didn't understand how Buffy could stand to be in the same room as him afterwards, soul or no soul. I think the way Buffy coped with it (just getting on with life and not letting it consume her) was really awesome, but, for me, the idea of her being willing to be close to him afterwards is... creepy.





Spoiler: S7



Nah, I don't think anyone really likes Principal Wood. Though it was nice to see a minority character not get killed/go evil! I was just waiting for him to die horribly, and when it didn't happen, I was thrilled. Again, a shame I didn't actually care about the character at all (past it being hilarious that it was _President Palmer_). 
I did love his "I hope that's not a student" line, though X3



You're right; it was weird that Wicca was never explained and then basically never mentioned again. And, again, the reinforcing for stereotypes is just not cool. 

I think the main reason people love S2 and 3 generally so much is because it's the core four and their library and stuff, which I have to admit I miss in the later seasons. I'm a huge S4 fan, and I miss the closeness of the group from the early days terribly, and while they reconnect well enough in S5, everything goes completely pear-shaped in S6 and never fully recovers.

I think it is a _little_ wrong that you liked Giles/Anya, especially since their kiss was, I thought, pretty much supposed to be intentionally cringeworthy to the audience; pretty much everyone I've watched it with has either laughed or gone "eeeew" at the A/G kiss.
Giles and Spike's British!hug was so much love <33 I wouldn't go so far as to say they made the episode; "Joan the Vampire Slayer" alone is just fantastic, and you have to admit Willow and Tara were adorable. It's just annoying they still made Dawn useless, though :/

Aww, I thought Anya's reaction to the events in Hell's Bells was believable. I can't actually remember it too much, but I don't remember thinking anything was odd (except the one obvious event), and her trying to get everyone to wish ill on Xander was _awsome._

I agree with most of your list! And your runner-ups (though I'll admit I couldn't even remember anything that happened in Sleeper XD). I should do a top-10 _best_ list and see how different it is to my favourites. And I want to do something akin to the top-100 moments list; maybe a bunch of top 10 moments by category; funniest, saddest... I've already done most romantic/squeeworthy.
(it has just occured to me how pathetic this is. I love it.)

EDIT: Aaaah Butterfree posts faster than me!

Hahaha, okay I laughed way, _way_ too much at your dream. That's absolutely excellent XD

So I have this thing where I like to think that Amber Benson and the Buffy wardrobe department had this massive ongoing war, in which she did something to annoy the head-wardrobe-person and then they took their revenge by making Tara wear the weirdest, most unflattering clothes they could think of in some episodes. Some of the stuff she wears is absolutely adorable, but others (the outfit in This Year's Girl where she and Willow are looking for Faith, the dress at the end of Family - and there's huge discord over whether the OMWF dress is the greatest or worst thing ever made) are just terrible. And there are a few episodes where whoever did Amber's makeup should have been shot. There's a huge W/T forum that's actually named "The Kitten, the Witches and the Bad Wardrobe", in part after the bizzare clothing choices for poor Tara (and, to a lesser extent, Willow).

I utterly _adore_ your Kutner headcanon. Except he plays a terrorist in a whole bunch of episodes in 24 season 6 (I know! He's in House, Buffy _and_ 24 <3), so at some point he has to convert to complete extremism, too. XD


----------



## Minish

Spoiler



I totally thought they might be about to kill Giles near the end of S6 as well as Butterfree. D: For a moment I realised how much one of the characters on the show dying -- that I didn't know about -- would affect me. Every single death I was spoilt for, and as such I just wasn't affected in the same way I knew I would have been without being spoilt.

...granted, a moment later I realised I had seen a screencap of the final scene in Chosen and knew he would survive, but still. For a moment, I was like... D:

Okay, I see that Butterfree brought up something that I was hoping would be brought up -- the nature of Spike going to Africa or wherever it was. Did I totally miss something, because I was seriously under the impression that he went to get his chip out. Everyone, it seems, just talks as if he went to get his soul, and I didn't get that from the show at all. Maybe it was supposed to be ambiguous and I just chose the less popular interpretation, but still, I'm pretty sure it was never mentioned on-screen that Spike went to specifically get his soul. I don't think it would be in character for him to do that, not even 'for Buffy', because by being soulless he just wouldn't do that in the first place. He went to be how he 'used to be' again, and to him that meant without his chip -- but to the demon bloke thing, it meant his soul. Which was why it was such a cliffhanger when it was like "We will give you back... YOUR SOUL!" and I was like :O even though I already knew he'd get his soul back at some point.

...eh. Maybe it's just me. I definitely prefer my interpretation, that it was to get his chip out. Much as I love Spike, I can not see him regretting the attempted rape on Buffy in that way, he's never -- nor has any vampire on the show, _ever_ -- shown any inclination in even associating themselves with their old soulled-up self. I don't see why they would suddenly make him all OOC and atone-y (that is so not a word even by Buffy standards...)

I'm not a fan of the Trio either. Their descent into evil was well-done, I agree on that too, but I also just hate them too much. I was able to be much angrier with Angelus after Jenny than I was with Warren after Tara, because... well, first, there was a massive difference in believability (wtf was with that bullet going up into the bedroom? I like how it was so unrelated to what was going on down in the garden and I also liked, in a very sad way, how Warren probably didn't even know Tara existed, but... it really could have been done better) and Angelus was just... any villain apart from the Trio, in fact... I can't put my finger on it. The Trio just lacked something, and maybe it's just because I hated them so much. I only kind of liked Andrew and Jonathan a bit when they were really dorkey, from then on it was just like... :|

And Jonathan, why'd they have to make him evil? XD I liked him...

I cheered at that Giles coming in bit too -- annoyingly, I had been spoilt AGAIN for his exact line after reading the Crowning Moment of Awesome page on TV Tropes (I have no idea how I convinced myself that was a good idea), but even so...

Although, in my opinion, there were a few other Giles moments where I actually have to constantly rewind just because I cheer and squee too much: when Jenny dies and he just goes to Angelus to beat the crap out of him _with a flaming baseball bat_. And this is Angelus we're talking about. And also when he just completely punches Ethan in the face in Halloween. I think I actually died the first time, in a very good way. I love how Ethan basically exists to let Giles be kick-ass and beat him up. XD

Okay, going back to the actual recent posts...

Yeah, it was good that they thought of a reason for Seth Green to leave -- and to be honest, there probably wouldn't have been many other plausible ways to do it without involving another werewolf. But God, Veruca was just... ugh and I totally didn't like seeing Oz behave that way to Willow, it was even worse than when he and Cordelia saw Willow and Xander kissing.

I would have liked Angel more in Chosen, since he was being all omg-he-has-a-sense-of-humour!?, but his arrival also seemd WTFish. Maybe not his arrival, but the way he and Buffy just kissed like that. Considering the way they had last left eachother, I just didn't like how they were all touchy-feely so suddenly. I know the circumstances made it make sense, but I still didn't like it. Still. Totally worth it if only because we got the cookie-dough speech. <3

Argh, I wish I liked Willow/Tara because there is just SO MUCH FANFICTION for it. D: And I don't want to go reading Spike/Buffy because it'll ruin my headcanon and I just _know_ what most Spike/Buffy fans will be like. Or maybe I'm just being judgemental, but eh.

Just reminded myself; are there any ships that you saw right at the start of the show, but then gave up? I really didn't expect it to happen, because normally if I see a ship I'll keep it for a good while. I saw extraordinary Buffy/Giles in the first season, but then it very quickly _completely_ vanished. And now I can adore their lovely platonic relationship without being reminded uncomfortably of the ship, which is good.

Then again, the only ship I'm really interested in is Buffy/Spike, so I guess that's my OTP without much competition at all. I so, so wish I were more of a shipper.

Still, at least I can see nearly every common ship as possible, I'm just not interested in it. Buffy/Xander, Dawn/Xander, Xander/Willow, Xander/Cordelia, Willow/Tara, I'd be interested in reading pretty much anything (that isn't cracky or disturbing) if it was good, which is really rare for me.

On Giles/Anya, I did find their kiss very cringeworthy and was like nooo as I looked at it, but then I thought back later and thought that TR!Anya really suited Giles. Maybe it's just because EC is such a good actress though.

And Sleeper was just another Spike-centric episode, so you'll probably feel like you're not missing anything X3 I don't think I asked this before; what did you think of Lies My Parents Told Me?



By the way, sorry if I repeated anything I'd already said look like a moron, 'cause I went back and scanned the posts I'd missed and may have gotten confused. X3

Sorry for the massive spoiler thing, I think most of it isn't actually spoiler material but I messed up the tags and just did whatever. I don't _think_ there's anything that should spoil anyone who hasn't seen S7... but there might be.


----------



## Dannichu

(I had so much fun with these spoiler tags)



Spoiler: S6



Yeah, I knew Giles would live, too, which was annoying, because the idea of Willow killing Giles is just... _woah_. Too much; too much!





Spoiler: early S7



Yeah, I thought Spike was just going to get his chip taken out too, rather than have his soul returned, so I voiced my throughts aloud and my friend said how he was gonna get his soul back.



Spike's development confuses me. I had an epically long conversation with another Buffy-friend about this and I think I've already talked about it a bit, but if I have, just pretend I haven't. Right. So. In S1 it's established pretty much from day 1 that vampires are evil, evil creatures. As Giles (I think) says, "It's not your friend, it's the monster that killed your friend", and the gang feel absolutely no remorse for killing vampires because they have no souls and are just plain evil.
Then, I'm fairly sure this is brought up in S2 by Dru, that vampires have the ability to love one another, but this doesn't make the gang feel any remorse in killing vamps either, because they're still totally evil killing machines; Angel and Angelus prove that the vamp-with-a-soul and vamp-without-a-soul incarnations are totally different.
Then, with S3, we have Doppelgangland, where Giles' claim about vampires is refuted in the form of Vamp Willow being "kinda gay"; Buffy assures Willow that a vampire has nothing to do with the person it was, to which Angel responds "Well, actually... uh, that's a good point.". Buffy et al can't bring themselves to kill Vamp Willow, probably due to her physical resemblance to Actual Will, but also probably in part because VW is still a little like AW (as nearly-stated by Angel).
S4 and Spike gets his chip. Spike can no longer kill people, but is still dangerous (see: his attack on Willow), and the Buffy gang keep him around "purely" for information about the Initative. Interestingly, Spike loses all of his vampireyness while under Willow's spell in Something Blue, though that could be because that's Willow's idea of what being married is like?? And the whole episode was done entirely for laughs and wasn't really meant to be taken seriously.
S5 and Spike is no longer needed, but they keep him around anyway; I can't remember it being explicitly stated, but I assume it's because they know him so well, they can't bring themselves to kill him, vamp or not. Spike falls in love with Buffy and does very un-vampy things for her (get tortured for Dawn's sake).
In S6 Spike helps out the gang here and there (even while Buffy's gone), and he and Buffy end up using one another and there's little thought of staking him, but other vamps are still evilevilevil. Then the AR happens, so Spike goes away.
And then, in S7, you've got Spike with a soul. Who is identical in personality to Spike with a chip. And this I just don’t understand. He doesn’t have any regret for killing all his past victims, yet still has a soul and such. What difference did the soul make?



Spoiler: Mid-S7



I was sad with Jonathan being evil/killed, too; if you go back and watch Buffy from the beginning, Jonathan is in so many episodes before he’s actually given a name and stuff; the other day we watched What’s My Line (I forget which part, but it’s the one with the fake policewoman who ends up shooting Oz) and he’s in the credits under “Hostage Boy” or something so we had a good giggle at that.



Giles has more than his share of CMoAs, though; I think it’s because he’s usually so stuffy and British that it makes even more of an impact when he does go out and attack people with flaming baseball bats and whatnot. I mean, he didn’t really do much with his Fear Itself chainsaw (just cut a hole in the door), but the fact he had one in the first place is just epic.

I was discussing cheating in Buffy with another friend the other day, and pretty much _everyone_ cheats on their SO’s in some way at some point: Xander, Willow, Oz, Riley, Anya, Spike, Dru... I forget, but I think Buffy goes out with one of her randomers while technically dating Angel… pretty much the only people who don’t are Giles (who only goes out with Jenny anyway; who really cares about Olivia?), Cordy (she might on Angel, though), Dawn (who never goes out with anyone anyway) and Tara (who has been described as “Not so much a lesbian as Willowsexual”).



Spoiler: Chosen



I didn’t think Angel and Buffy in Chosen was too OOC; she wanted to tell him to be the second line of attack, so him showing up wasn’t too surprising, and given she was very much aware that she could die in the final battle, the kiss wasn’t too unexpected; they do have that whole true-love-that-can-never-be thing going on. I forget; how was the last time they’d left each other? Was it Forever, or am I forgetting something really obvious?
I can’t decide if I love the cookie dough speech or hate it. Get back to me on that one.





Spoiler: Seeing Red



I dunno; I haven’t read any, but you should give Buffy/Spike fanfiction a go. In my experience, Buffy fans are an angsty lot, so you might be pleasantly surprised. 
While watching the early seasons, I really wanted to ‘ship Willow and Buffy; I knew Willow came out later, and I knew her girlfriend was someone called Tara who would eventually die (and I didn’t want to like her because I didn’t want it to hurt when she died – _hah_.), but it’s just too friendshippy for me. I’ve read a few good fics, but within canon as it is, it’s just squicky. I was intrigued by Buffy/Faith, but gave up because all the fanfiction for it is terrible (well, the stuff I’ve read), and Faith’s later appearances don’t support it at all.
No gay loving for Buffy ):





Spoiler: Tabula Rasa



Hehe, TR!Anya was hilarious. “I feel compelled to take some vegence on you!”. The only thing I don’t like about TR (well, except obvious sad things at the end) was how Dawn was rubbish even with her memory gone. The whole “please don’t hurt me” bit was awful. I like the “Umad” bit, though.





Spoiler: Lies My Parents Told Me



I wasn’t too fussed about Lies My Parents Told Me. I’d heard that it was brilliant (forget who said that), but I didn’t enjoy it too much, mostly because it focused on Spike and Wood, neither of whom I cared overly about. It was well-done, though.


----------



## Minish

Haha, I love all your quotiness but I'm lazy. XD

(Spoilers for S7/everything)



Spoiler



I do get what you mean with Spike. His vampirism was... really weird, but I think by taking what I want to from S7 stuff, I've come to see it making more sense.

Like when he was 'crazy' in the basement, in early S7. I loved loved loved it. I think it was the Critically Touched guy who said that Spike's inane mumblings of 'it' and 'him' were 'it' being the First, and 'him', possibly, being God, which I thought was very interesting. I absolutely adored all the things Spike said because they can be analysed so much, like Restless. Like that episode where... I can't remember much, since I haven't rewatched anything in S7, but... it was something like Buffy and Willow were split up and couldn't see eachother because of some spell in the school or something, and we saw through one of their POVs that Spike was just rambling crazily again and it seemed to make no sense, but then when we saw that exact scene from the other's point of view, who was right there in the room as well, we saw the ramblings again and they made total sense because he was talking about the other person there, and it was just all confusing him.

...or something, I can't remember it that clearly. XD But I loved it. With him talking about how 'he' was there -- I just got what he said on Critically Touched: "When Spike says, "and now everyone's in here, talking, everything I did, everyone I... and _him_ [Spike's concience manifesting as his perception of God's punishment]... and _it_ [the First] ... they all just tell me to go... go, to hell." When Buffy asks him why he'd go get his soul, Spike rightfully snaps back: "Buffy, shame on you. What must a man do what he mustn't for her, to be hers. To be the kind of man, who would never... to be a kind of man. And she shall look at him with forgiveness, and everyone will forgive, and love. And he will be loved. So, everything's okay, right? Can we rest now? Buffy, can we rest?" It's these final words, overlayed with Spike wrapping his now scorching body around (hugging) a large cross, that the episode ends."

I think when he was all insane in the basement, it was a mix of the First and how much his soul was affecting him. I think he did show an awful lot of guilt, and was seeking redemption in his head, and it was all just totally confusing him. Spike said at one point that Angel should have told him it (getting a soul) would be like this.

He shows hints of this all the time, and him seeming 'normal' again when he gets his unkempt hair back to how it usually was, was totally creepy. It was like he was like you say, completely the same as when he had his chip, but I think there was an underlying _Oh my god he's still crazed_ that kept freaking me out during the episode. We didn't see how much getting a soul would have affected Angel, we only see how he wanted redemption later.

I think it's different for every vampire, how they deal with getting a soul. In Lies My Parents Told Me, he didn't kill Wood, which I am 100% he would have done had he not had his soul. In that same episode, it seems very much like he can only live by abandoning his guilt, denying the responsibility for killing Wood's mother. Angel sought redemption, but Spike believes that as a vampire, it was what he had to do. He abandons his responsibility because he knows that a vampire is a de-souled victim of a demon. In that way, he can live, and Spike has always been one to sort of move on (well... not when Buffy's concerned, but yeah) and deal.

Angel did seek redemption, but Spike didn't feel plagued with guilt after the First stopped messing with his brain (though, I think, part of his craziness was that he had just gotten his soul back, I think it _did_ affect him a lot and make him feel guilt then). We've only really seen, in-depth, two vampires with a soul, and I liked how they were so, so different. Angel was extreme -- without a soul, he was a complete and utter monster; with a soul, he feels extreme redemption and the desire to help for the sake of helping. With Spike, it's very much that with a soul, with a chip and without a soul all overlapped and crossed over. I liked that an outright reason was given for this, just hints of possible reasons, and the possibility that getting a soul is just totally different for all vampires, and how different vampires can be from eachother. Spike's always been an anomaly in the vampire world, that's what a writer said in the Lies My Parents Told Me commentary, I believe. I don't think it's as clear-cut as 'getting a soul does _this_', and that's something I really, really like about the show.

If they hadn't had all that about Spike, S7 would have sucked so, so much. In my opinion. X3

I do get that Angel and Buffy kissing wasn't too OOC, because like you say,  it's all that everlasting love stuff. Which annoyed me, because Spike/Buffy was always gritty and more realistic, whereas Angel was kind of just 'oh, he still exists?' and their random kiss and interaction just sort of ignored all the development their relationship had gone through. But yeah, I know it was kind of a no-guarantees-on-living thing. Maybe I'm just looking too far into it. XD And I remember their last meeting as when Buffy went and met him somewhere, but given as we don't really know what happened, I consider the last time to be... I want to say Pangs, but I'm sure there was another time after that when he did a random pointless visit.



Ahh, I toootally did the same thing about wanting to see Buffy/Willow. I knew she'd turn gay and get a girlfriend that wasn't Buffy, but I still saw it in the first episode. They were so cute! But then I completely lost it, like I did with Buffy/Giles later in S1. Which is nice, because like Buffy/Giles the platonic friendshippiness is totally enough to be awesome.


----------



## Butterfree

So! We finished the series! And I read aaaaall the spoilers! :D

The way I see the vampire thing is that they can feel love, passion and other base emotions just fine, soul or no soul, but always in a fundamentally selfish way - Spike feels good when he's with Drusilla, and he will take pains to help her, but ultimately it's because of the way she makes him feel and want. Likewise, with Buffy, he 



Spoiler: season five



lets himself be tortured, but it's only because he knows that Buffy would never forgive him if he gave her away as the Key and thus he would lose that shred of a chance he has to be with her; it's this basic selfishness of his love that makes him do things like chain her up in Crush to try to force her to admit there is something "between them", because it's not that he cares about her so much as caring about the future possibility of making himself feel better by being with Buffy


. Spike is unusually driven by "love" because he had a very romantic personality as a human and thus how good he feels is very connected to his "romantic" feelings, but ultimately, because he is a soulless vampire, he cannot love selflessly; it's all about seeking comfort for himself.



Spoiler: end of season six



Of course, then the thing is that the borders start to get blurry, because the way his emotions work very closely resemble something like a conscience. He attempts to rape Buffy, unable to comprehend the inherent wrongness of it, but afterwards, realizing how much he hurt her and thus his chances of ever being with her, his love for her makes him feel horrible about it in a selfish way. (As he is agonizing over it, we see him both horrified by what he's done _and_ horrified that he _is_ so horrified.) Ultimately, his seeking to reclaim his soul is also selfish, because Buffy has been telling him she cannot be with him because he has no soul, and now he finds himself inadvertently hurting her (and by extension himself) exactly because he can't understand these things on his own. Thus, he wants a soul - yet again, in the hope that it will ultimately lead to Buffy loving him and himself feeling better. Ultimately, as a vampire he functions pretty similar to how he functions with a soul, because he has his dependence on love as a 'faux conscience'. Meanwhile, somebody like Angel, who as a human was never that concerned with love or what other people thought of him, truly needs a selfless soul to be good, and without it he is a complete monster.

I actually thought the remove chip/get soul thing was a very deliberate, cleverly done fake-out. I knew he would get his soul back, and so as I watched his scenes with the demon in the cave I noticed how everything was carefully worded so that it could mean either removing the chip or returning the soul. (It actually reminded me of Justice for All case 2-4 - when I first played through the cross-examination of De Killer, I didn't notice anything off about the way they never mentioned Adrian Andrews' gender until the key part, but when I replayed it and knew about the set-up, the way everything was worded around it, with "my client" used when any normal person would have said "he" or "she", felt really obvious.) He talks about "returning to the way he was", and we're supposed to _think_ he means before he got the chip, but in fact he means before he became a vampire. He talks about "giving me what I want", and again, we're meant to think he's referring to getting the chip removed, but he's actually referring to the soul. The entire conversation is set up to _sound_ like it's about the chip, but at the same time it is clearly actually about his soul if you know what to look for.





Spoiler: season seven



Of course, once he has the soul, he suddenly starts to feel selfless feelings, is riddled with guilt about everybody he's killed and so on; before he actually got it, he never realized it would be like that because he couldn't understand what selfless feelings were like anymore. When it happens, he goes mad with guilt and confusion over his own feelings; later, he learns to deal with it by distancing himself from it, as in Lies My Parents Told Me where he justifies killing Wood's mother as just being what vampires do and what slayers sign up for.



Now, on to other thoughts about season seven!



Spoiler



I actually really liked it as a whole. I enjoyed having the First as the main villain; it's fitting for the last season to take on this fundamental force of evil, instead of being just another evil demon of some sort, plus that it was nice to see it brought up again after it had been set up there in season three. Admittedly, it was set up (especially in Conversations with Dead People) as a lot scarier than it ended up being in the second half of the season, but I liked the way it works by manipulating people anyway. I also really, _really_ enjoyed Spike's arc; I had hoped it would deal well with his getting a soul thing, and in my opinion it really did. And Andrew was positively adorable and Storyteller is one of my favorite episodes. And Conversations with Dead People was really good, too, and I loved Lies My Parents Told Me, and all those Spike episodes really, and Him was hilarious. And I kind of enjoyed the potentials; they weren't exactly interesting, but they were developed enough to make it really satisfying to see them all getting their powers in Chosen and start kicking ass. I actually liked Kennedy, though not with Willow because they set up this whole thing with Willow not feeling ready to let Tara go but then she did anyway for some stupid reason, plus that Kennedy was always just kind of pushy and annoying to her and she really doesn't feel like Willow's type because both Oz and Tara were these quiet, ultra-nice, considerate people and suddenly along comes this bratty, pushy girl who is like the very antithesis of both Oz and Tara and yet Willow magically loves her without any setup whatsoever. And okay, maybe I don't really like Kennedy, but I liked her just fine first after she came in. <_<



About the dealing with death thing, 



Spoiler: various points in the series



yeah, I agree on how nobody really seemed to care when Tara and Anya died. And Spike too; I mean, most of them wouldn't really be too devastated that he'd died, but I'd expect there to be at least some sort of a reaction. And Anya really should have elicited more than just Xander going "Yeah, that's my girl." There could at least have been a bit of mourning in that final scene. I like to pretend that the grieving over Tara just went on mostly during the summer between seasons six and seven, though, and that they were just all too busy stopping Willow in the last few episodes of season six.



Speaking in spoiler tags is annoying.


----------



## Harlequin

Spoiler: season seven



Well, I really liked the potentials and Chosen was a brilliant episode for me. I've said it before, I know, but I think Chosen was one of the best episodes of the series. For me, Chosen was everything that Buffy is: fighting against evil, yes, but also about empowerment and friendship and _family_ and and and I loved it. Yeah.

Kennedy. Well. She was different from both Tara and Oz, but maybe that's the attraction for Willow. I don't know, though. I thought it happened kind of fast but I don't think it was fundamentally _wrong_.


----------



## Minish

I didn't see much wrong with Kennedy; I didn't think she was a bad match for Willow. There aren't many people who can only go out with one type of person -- Angel, Spike and Riley were all very different people, and yet Buffy had relationships with all of _them_. I don't exactly ship them, but I thought the wild difference in personality between Tara and Kennedy made sense.

When Oz left, Willow went out with Tara -- granted, they had relatively similar personalities, but... well, Tara was a girl and Willow had clearly never realised she was not straight before that. Maybe Willow just goes for a totally different type of person to try and move on. And I know (S6) Tara died, but I think after everything that had happened, Willow _needed_ to have a new relationship and really start to carry on with her life.

Eh. My take on it. I never really realised how many Willow/Tara shippers there were before finding out that Willow/Kennedy was universally hated. X3 One thing that I think is a bit weird is how _Kennedy_ wanted the relationship. I can see why Willow would be interested in Kennedy; not the other way around though. But maybe she's had loads of relationships.

As long as Willow and Kennedy aren't supposed to be omg true loves (which is a hideous thought to me, so maybe I don't like Kennedy that much after all) I thought it was a perfectly natural relationship. I didn't like it when Kennedy was all 'magic is all weird to me' or something to that effect, like she wasn't even interested, I was like >| at that point. XP

I've actually been liking Willow/Tara more recently. And I know I've said that I find Tara boring, but in real life I'd probably love her to pieces, she's like one of the nicest people ever, if a little too under-confident for my liking (which makes her a little bit of a pushover). Also, one of my friends told me that my slight stammer/falling over words is very similar to Tara's, which I had to begrudgingly agree with. X3 Tara was always just so genuinely _nice_... ;_; Looking at her as a person rather than her place as a character... well, yeah. That makes me respect and adore her.


----------



## Dannichu

Spoiler: everything in the world, ever



I didn't like The First. I thought it was really well done in Conversations with Dead People, with Joyce/not!Tara and all, but then Caleb came along and stuff, and while I agree in part it was cool for the final big bad to not be some random monster, having them fight the very essence of evil itself was a little heavy-handed, especially after S6 (actually, every season building up gradually) had gone to such great lengths to blur the lines between what it means to be good and evil, and then to have it put back into complete black and white was disappointing. 

I like your idea about Spike accepting what he did as a vampire is just what vampires do and he shouldn't feel guilty about it. I can see Spike doing that very easily. And I like Butterfree's thing about vampires being purely selfishly motivated. I like all this Spike insight; it's making me like him a bit more.

I think the last meeting between Buffy and Angel (at least, in Buffy, I dunno about AtS) was in Forever, the episode after The Body. I really liked Buffy staying after the funeral and Angel coming along to comfort her; it's a bit foreshadowy of S6 if you think about it; she can't deal with her loss on her own, and she can't tell her friends, so she "uses" someone she knows loves her to cope with her pain.
Speaking of Forever, what the hell was Willow thinking, giving Dawn that book? I don't understand it; I don't think Willow's silly enough to encourage Dawn to try and raise the dead (she seemed to agree with Tara about it being a magic user's responsibility, and she proved earlier in the episode that she absolutely cannot lie convincingly), but I also don't get how she thought reading about magic would help Dawn cope with her loss in any way.
In some ways, I think Forever is just as sad as The Body, especially because a lot of the numbness that The Body had has worn off and it's more raw and real. The scene where Dawn accuses Buffy of not caring and Buffy breaks down saying that as soon as she stops doing mundane things it all becomes real just about breaks my heart ): 
Though I love the episode purely for Willow's eggs "wiggling at me like little boobs"; it makes me laugh so, so hard. "Sassy eggs" indeed XD

I loved Andrew in S7 so much; he was so refreshing against all the angst that was going on with everyone else. Such a shame I was still full of residual hate from S6 D:

Bleh, I didn't like the Potentials. They took up too much screentime and it just ended up that there were so many we didn't know much about any of them. We know Kennedy because of Willow. We know Rona because she complains about things. We know Penny (okay, her name wasn't Penny but we called her that because she was in Dr Horrible) because of her hat. We know Molly because of her horrible, horrible accent. 

I'd have liked Kennedy a lot more if they hadn't tried to pair her with Willow. It was far, far too soon and they didn't work as a couple (I thought) at all. As a character in her own right, she's marginally annoying but coped pretty well with all the stuff thrown at her, which was cool. 
I guess it just felt too much to me that the writers were a) trying to make some more character connections and make us become attached to at least one potential, and b) trying and make up for killing/turning evil their lesbian characters in the previous season by having a new lesbian relationship and not killing them. I think they purposefully made Kennedy the anti-Tara to show they weren't simply replacing her, but it pretty much backfired because the most ardent Kennedy-haters are Tara fans. And the vast majority of gay Buffy fans are Tara fans.

Haha, I'd never seen how odd Kennedy/Willow is from Kennedy's POV, actually. Willow doesn't seem her type, either. The only thing I can think of is that she saw Willow as a kind of conquest - she was in mourning and didn't want a relationship, so it was more of a challenge to try and push her into one... and that just makes me hate Kennedy more.

Chosen and The Gift are both epic and brilliant because, like Harle said, they encapsulate everything that makes Buffy brilliant, drawing together all the themes of the series, with some wonderful character moments, Joss-humour, lots of painful loss and all that other stuff that makes it my favourite show :D

And yaaaaay on you (kinda-sorta) liking W/T. I've mentioned to a few people "So I have this friend online and I've made her watch Buffy and she loves it but she doesn't like Tara" and pretty much everyone's reaction was "And you still talk to her?". I didn't realize everyone thinks I'm such a rabid fan D:

Well, Tara's introduced as very under-confident, but she grows so much, especially in S6, to the point where you really can't say she's anything resembling a pushover; I refer you here to Older and Far Away, where she keeps poking fun at Spike, is a pillar of support for Buffy and threatens Anya for tempting Willow. Plus, there's a kind of irony (what is it with me, Tara and irony?) in that even though Tara appears to be the underconfident one, Willow's actually way more nervous and self-loathing than Tara ever was. Look at Restless; Tara is totally calm, open (she appears naked (ie. not hiding anything), while Willow "wearing a costume" is a theme in her dream) and self-assured (granted, this is Willow's perception of her rather than her own, but I think Tara's more open; when we see her lack confidence, she lacks confidence, but when she accepts who she is and grows more confident, that's who she becomes; there's no pretense or bravado), while Willow is constantly hiding behind a mask, convinced she's still the geek she was in high school. And thus begins everything in S6.



ETA: It's somewhat related; Cirrus, I adore your avvie and title-thingy. I have that picture in non-avatar form saved (under the filename "The Nancy Tribe" X3), and the "Someone wasn't worthy!" scene is one of my absolute favourites <3


----------



## Keltena

...Spike's backstory. He was a bloody horrible poet. Oh my god that is awesome. And a hopeless romantic; man, that explains so much!

Loved the episode Fool For Love; I always thought the Buffy/Spike 'shippers were crazy but now I see where they're coming from. Also, Willow/Tara are adorable as always <333

And Anya. She is still amazing. Also the part in Family where Dawn stepped up to stand in front of Tara with Buffy... so amazing!


----------



## Dannichu

Hehe, I'm so glad you're enjoying it :D And YAY someone else who loves that scene in Family! <33 "She's a hair-puller" - so cute! And I would actually pay good money to watch Dawn pull Mr. Maclay's hair.
Spike's backstory's pretty funny, yeah; remember what the woman Spikes loved (Cecily?) looks like; you might recognize her in later episodes X3

Edit:
Also, I feel compelled to plug my newest TV love: Torchwood. Imagine if Buffy were made by the BBC, had older characters and was set in Wales. It's not as funny (although it does have its share of Joss-humour-y moments) and the characters aren't as lovable (except Ianto <3 And Tosh), but it's just as nonsensical and generally fabulous. 
And it has Spike in X3 Only for a couple of episodes, but still. If you've got a spare couple of minutes, watch this. You haven't lived until you've heard James Marsters proclaim "But I was a _good_ wife!"


----------



## PK

*FINISHED THE WHOLE SERIES. DANNI, GET ONLINE SO WE CAN DISCUSS EVERY LAST LITTLE THING.*


----------



## Harlequin

Dannichu said:


> Hehe, I'm so glad you're enjoying it :D And YAY someone else who loves that scene in Family! <33 "She's a hair-puller" - so cute! And I would actually pay good money to watch Dawn pull Mr. Maclay's hair.
> Spike's backstory's pretty funny, yeah; remember what the woman Spikes loved (Cecily?) looks like; you might recognize her in later episodes X3
> 
> Edit:
> Also, I feel compelled to plug my newest TV love: Torchwood. Imagine if Buffy were made by the BBC, had older characters and was set in Wales. It's not as funny (although it does have its share of Joss-humour-y moments) and the characters aren't as lovable (except Ianto <3 And Tosh), but it's just as nonsensical and generally fabulous.
> And it has Spike in X3 Only for a couple of episodes, but still. If you've got a spare couple of minutes, watch this. You haven't lived until you've heard James Marsters proclaim "But I was a _good_ wife!"


Don't tell me you're _just now_ getting to Torchwood?! It's like, great. And gay! Very gay! And brilliant! Ianto's a good character, too. :D


----------



## Dannichu

Hey, it's _me_ we're talking about. I get into everything _years_ late! D:
So far I've watched all of S1 and 2 and I love it to bits. I utterly adore Ianto, he's adorable <3

Also: YAY PK! :DDD


----------



## Harlequin

Dannichu said:


> Hey, it's _me_ we're talking about. I get into everything _years_ late! D:
> So far I've watched all of S1 and 2 and I love it to bits. I utterly adore Ianto, he's adorable <3
> 
> Also: YAY PK! :DDD


Oh, God, I got to Buffy nearly a decade late. Like, seriously.

Watch Children of Earth _now_. Do it. If you don't want it I'll hunt you down and and and remove your lesbian centre in your brain. Then you'll have to be heterosexual, and who wants _that_?


----------



## Dannichu

Yeah, I only got into Buffy last year thanks to an already-obsessed friend at uni. I think I'm glad I watched it as an adult rather than a teenager/kid, though; I understand it more and think I can appreciate the characters and stuff better than if I'd watched it when I was 13 or whatever. 
Actually, I think part of the reason I love series 4 so much was that one of its main themes was going away to university for the first time and adjusting to such a big life change, both in terms of meeting new people and growing away from old friends, and given that I watched it during _my_ first year of university, it just felt a bit more real and personal than if I'd've watched it at any other time in my life. So, who knows? Maybe if I'd watched S2 or 3 while in my last few years of secondary school, I'd relate to them more and like them best :)

Okay, the commenting and such here has died down a little, so I'm going to ask some open questions:

1. Which Buffy episode (or moment within an episode) made you realise that BtVS was actually a really good show?

2. Which was the moment (I assume you have one) where you fell in love with your favourite character?

3. What was, for you, the most emotional scene in the entire series?

Just to, y'know, get some discussion going or something?

My friend who has the first two seasons of Torchwood is getting the Children of Earth for Christmas, so I'll be watching it in January when we go back to uni - is that soon enough? Please, I beg you, don't take my powers of lesbianism away! They're all I have! D:

Happyhappy sidenote: Last page, I mentioned, in passing, "There’s a wonderful (eternally unfinished; last updated in ‘03) fic called Working Out The Kinks" ...it updated! :DDD This is another thing about Buffy fics; so many of them have been left unfinished for years, but then, very occasionally, the author comes back and finishes/updates them! The same thing happened with another fic I'm utterly in love with, called Creation Myth, which hadn't been updated in years. God, I love fic.
...now, if only someone would update Neverland. That fic _kills_ me.><


----------



## Keltena

Hm, okay...

1. The third episode; the one where Amy's trapped inside her mom's body and all. With the cheerleading. That was very cleverly pulled off. The first episode was meh and the second was decent and they just got better~

2. Oh gee... Willow, Willow, Willow... ohIknow. In season one, that part where Cordelia's all "how do I finish this?" and Willow says "press 'deliver'" and Cordelia hits "DEL". <3.14 Epic.

3. Pretty tough tie between the end of Lie to Me and New Moon Rising, but I'll say the latter. I mean, I'm a really big W/T shipper, but the part where she said goodbye to Oz... I was crying my eyes out. ;_;

Hm... my favorite Buffyfic is still that cracky one I linked you to, but then I haven't read many. Must do so after finishing series. n_n


----------



## PK

1. Uh... let's see... When I realized I was actually _concerned_ when bad things happened to Willow.

2. Dopplegangland. Vamp willow <3

3. The Body. Or maybe when xander and willow are together after xander gets de-eyed.


----------



## Dannichu

Haha, I loved the cracky Buffyfic, too. God, there are so many fics I love <3
I'm actually rereading one of my (fairly short) favourites that you might enjoy, called Willow's Head, which is crazy and brilliant. 
Favourite line: "The inner workings of Willow's mind resembled something Jules Verne might have built, had he had the annual budget of the Pentagon."
(It's here, if you're interested. And it's uber, so it's spoiler-free!)

1. It took me a little while to reconcile the wackiness of BtVS with the brilliance of the characters/humour, so I think I realized it was a good show around either Prophecy Girl or the two What's My Line?s, but I didn't realize _how_ good it was until, I think, the S2 finale, when, like PK said, I realized how much I really cared about the characters.

2. I always especially like Willow and Giles, but I can't really pin down a precice moment where I knew I loved them... I remember feeling so, so badly for Willow during Bewitched, Bothered and Bewlidered, though, and I think Band Candy just cemented my absolute love of Giles. And New Moon Rising just sold me on Tara, when she wanted Willow's happiness above her own. At that point, I loved her because she so obviously cared about Willow, and then, probably around Family I loved her as her own character, and by Older and Far Away she was easily my favourite person in the show.

3. The end of The Gift/the end of Tabula Rasa/the end of Seeing Red. Those three because each episode switches between such strong emotions so much and sometimes with just so little warning that it's doubly shocking. I make a very strange series of noises while watching The Gift.


----------



## Butterfree

Ooh, discussion!

Well, I saw a bunch of brilliant episodes with Dannichu before I'd seen anything other than the pilot, so. To make this easier I think I'll first go through and try to figure out exactly which ones they were and approximately in what order (if you remember the order better, by all means say so):

Once More, With Feeling
The Wish
Doppelgangland
Hush
Earshot
Band Candy
A New Man
The Body
Something Blue
Restless
Who Are You?

So.

1. Well, Once More, With Feeling is pretty awesome; admittedly, however, there was a whole _lot_ of stuff I didn't really get at that point, what with having no clue about the context of any of it, and while it was a very fun musical episode I wasn't sure how much I'd like the rest of the show. After that, though, there were all these brilliant and funny episodes that made it pretty clear, especially The Body with the "really good" part. Though I guess the one that really cemented the "oh, God, I will HAVE to watch the entirety of this show" was probably Something Blue, during which I nearly died laughing.

Once I started watching the whole series in order, Prophecy Girl was the first one that gave me the feeling that if I'd seen this on TV, not having seen any of the later episodes, I'd have decided it was good. Specifically, the "I'm only 16" speech; there were other things about it I wasn't too keen on, but that particular bit stuck with me. Later, I got that feeling about Passion, because that episode really gave me the chills and was just perfect in its heartwrenchingness.

2. I think I pretty much loved Giles immediately. And then there came Band Candy.

For Spike, who is probably my other favorite character now, it was Lover's Walk, which made me suddenly adore him because he was all pathetic and adorable.

Willow I pretty much loved from the beginning, too, but I think an important part of it was the "Press 'deliver'" bit from the first episode.

3. All of The Body; it has this atmosphere throughout that just makes it utterly crushing.


----------



## Minish

XD Ahh, that 'someone wasn't worthy' scene is one of my favourites, too. I completely forgot about all these awesome scenes in S2 because I haven't watched it for so long, and I've just been rewatching random episodes in it and realising just how good it actually was.

Ahhh I don't have enough time to quote your post and everything but I pretty much agree with everything you said. X3; And yeah, what _was_ Willow thinking when she gave Dawn that book? I actually liked how Willow was made a little irresponsible in S6, because I always liked that she had realistic flaws and such. I was angry with her in Tabula Rasa, but I still though it was wonderfully IC. But she was really weirdly characterised later on. I think we've fully exercised the 'wtf magic is like drugs' topic though, if I get back into it I'll never get out again. XD

Ooh, questions!

1. Hmm... I actually enjoyed S1 a lot, but I think, looking at the episodes, I realised how good it was around The Dark Age. Although maybe that's only because the characters got really interesting around there... perhaps Innocence or Passion in general, then? Although actually, now I'm thinking School Hard, because Spike and Drusilla were just perfect. The exact moment when Spike turned around and fell out of his vampire face, I think. I suddenly realised 'wow, they have some _really_ good ideas'.

2. Out of My Mind, without a doubt. That's when I became absolutely hooked on S5 and completely fell in love with Spike's character. It was even good enough before the end scene, but that one moment where he just puts down the gun and sits down... ahhh. That's when I realised how complex a character he was, and really respected the show even more. The Initiative comes a close second, and, of course, Fool for Love (and Beneath You). But Out of My Mind remains one of my favourite episodes just because of how brilliant Spike was in it.

3. I think... when Buffy was telling Dawn about Joyce, in The Body. In the hall in her school, when she just broke down. I couldn't believe how they'd managed to do something so terribly real. That The Body was filled with moments like this just prevents me from ever contemplating rewatching it. And whenever Dawn accused Buffy of not caring, like an episode later or something, and Buffy just started crying. I believe Buffy had short hair or something then, or maybe she'd tied it up? But I just saw S1/S2 Buffy in her place, crying, and argh it was so sad. :/


----------



## Dannichu

Wow, Butterfree, I *did* make you watch some damn good episodes XD My normal forumla for trying to get someone hooked on Buffy is to make them watch Hush, Doppelgangland (which admittedly makes more sense if preceeded by The Wish) and then OMWF. I think it's funny that when you watched Something Blue, you nearly died laughing, but when I showed that episode to a friend who'd never seen any Buffy before, he found it mildly entertaining, but thought Willow was annoying. I think it's one of those episodes (like Tabula Rasa or The Gift) that only works if you know the characters.

I loved the "I'm only 16" speech, too. I couldn't pin down excatly why I liked it so much, but then my beloved 100 Moments list happened, and explained it better than I ever could:
"All season, pretty much everything has been treated as a joke. There were threats, but they never felt all that serious. Such is the nature of a program where its tongue resides permanently in its cheek. But suddenly, without warning, we see that there's so much more going on under the surface. It's easy to forget that Buffy is a young girl forced into a role she never wanted. She's whined about not being able to go out on dates because she has to patrol, sure, but even then it was more like an amusing social statement on growing up than something to be concerned with. After all, Buffy makes jokes about it, so there's obviously nothing much to worry about. Until now, when she shows us that it's not all fun and games and she's terrified."



Spoiler: The Body



The Body was, obviously, very emotional, but because (most of the time) it was just one emotion, I could cope better with it. Though there were a few scenes at the beginning that messed around with my emotions, specifically the cut from the Christmas scene - which I love and wish we'd gotten to see in a happier episode - and Buffy's imagined scene about Joyce being alright hurt _so much_, but other than that it was mostly just pure grief, and I can cope with that. I just don't like feeling something one moment and then something completely different the next.





Spoiler: Selfless



I think I actually _screamed_ the first time I watched Selfless and there was that one cut right from Anya being so happy, singing her missing song, and then it cuts with absolutely no warning to Anya with a sword through her. It was brutal D:



And now all this talk of The Body has made me sad, so I'll add some levity by showing you what happens when you cross Buffy geeks with a whiteboard. This! (I managed to cut Oz off the bottom. He was tiny, held a guitar, and said "I am short")

We also had fun playing a game of "draw a scene from Buffy in X seconds!", and we had mixed results (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18) Good times.


----------



## Harlequin

BEST BUFFY MOMENT IMO:

"I'd like to test that theory."

you know it to be true.

(also Dannichu you can keep your lesbianism IF YOU PROMISE to watch Children of Earth as soon as you're able.)


----------



## Dannichu

Well... yeah. I find it hard to argue with that. 

Um! I think I might have found a picture of Tony Head that's even more Wtf?-worthy than the Rocky Horror pictures I posted a little while back! Huzzah!







Awesome, no?

Also, Today in Dannichu has the Geekiest Friends Ever.

(And yes, of course I will. I don't want to be cured and want the boys D:)


----------



## Butterfree

...that looks like Tony and James decided to reenact some crazy Spike/Giles bondage fanfic. Which probably exists and all, but whut.


----------



## Harlequin

(GOOD GIRL) and thanks for agreeing. 

that picture has to have some kind of story. srs.


----------



## Dannichu

My favourite thing about that pic is it would be totally erotic if not for the "what the frilly heck?" expression on Tony's face XD
(second favourite bit is the fact that Spike's somehow managing to draw blood from Giles' shoulder despite having obviously short nails XD)

It's also from the same photoshoot as the pic in Cirrus' avatar. Does tea come before or after bondage?

Because I am a perv had nothing better to do, I had a look around some slashy Buffy fanfiction sites for the crazy Giles/Spike bondage fic Butterfree mentioned, but could only find some where Spike's the one being bound (in Giles' bathtub/shower, of course). Maybe I'll have to have a harder look at a later point :p
Plus, if nothing else, _that pic_ must have inspired a whole ton of fanfiction. Look at it! It makes _me_ want to write it! D:


----------



## Harlequin

... you know.

Maybe that photo.

Could like. Be my entrance into Buffy fandom. 

with a fic. inspired by it.

It wouldn't be the weirdest thing I've written. (See: Snow Porn [T] for a recent example)

_Hm._


----------



## PK

This is rapidly heading down a terrifying path.

And I'm interested to see how it turns out.


----------



## Minish

Those scenes you drew with your friends are awesome, Danni. XD And your Facebook thing, omg. Geekery ftw.

I was searching for random Buffy pictures on Google the other day and saw that exact Giles and Spike picture, and just went WTF. XDD I can't look at it and think of _anything_ but bondage sexy tiemz, please tell me that was the intention or whoever decided to make them pose like that was very dim. Actually, I hope that wasn't the intention, 'cause Spike/Giles scares the hell outta me. But Tony's expression is awesome.

...why did they randomly decide to do a Spike and Giles photo shoot? Get the two British characters together for no apparent reason? Not that I disapprove, of course. >D

I'm apparently supposed to like Spike/Giles since they're my favourite characters, but I can't for that exact reason. Is anyone else like this? I just can't pair two characters together that I absolutely adore on their own. :( ...Buffy/Giles should really not appeal to me more than Spike/Giles, should it.


----------



## Harlequin

Buffy/Giles seems too incestuous in the bad way. I can't really... get into it. It'd be kind of hot but at the same time I don't think I'd like it.

Bad Cirrus. :(


----------



## Dannichu

Harlequin said:


> ... you know.
> 
> Maybe that photo.
> 
> Could like. Be my entrance into Buffy fandom.
> 
> with a fic. inspired by it.
> 
> It wouldn't be the weirdest thing I've written. (See: Snow Porn [T] for a recent example)
> 
> _Hm._


THERE ARE NO WORDS for how much I approve of this. Do iiiiiiit.

I want to write Buffy fic. My super top-secret (haha) WIP is just over 8000 words at the moment, and not a lot's happened. It's not very good (kinda expected, given I haven't written fic in like five years), but I'm determined to finish it.
And the other night (while I was panicking about finishing a massive essay) I couldn't get the idea of a Pokemon-themed Buffy uberfic out of my head and now I really want to write it. Help meeeee D:

I just can't pair Giles with any of the other Scoobies. It's just, like Harle said, the bad kind of incest (and I just typed "insect" and it wouldn't be a good kind of that, either). The bit in WTWTA where Willow says she used to have a crush on Giles scares me as much as it does Xander.
Actually, I don't like any of the Scoobies paired together much. I can kind get my head around Willow/Xander, but it, like everything else, just messes up the brilliant relationships they canonally have with each other and the idea of that makes me sad ): 

While it definitely hasn't replaced my Buffy OTP, I've been reading a whole bunch of Tara/Buffy stuff and really enjoying it.


----------



## Harlequin

Dannichu said:


> THERE ARE NO WORDS for how much I approve of this. Do iiiiiiit.


I JUST MIGHT DO IT. There's a _huge_ Buffy presence over at AO3, too. :D



> I want to write Buffy fic. My super top-secret (haha) WIP is just over 8000 words at the moment, and not a lot's happened. It's not very good (kinda expected, given I haven't written fic in like five years), but I'm determined to finish it.
> And the other night (while I was panicking about finishing a massive essay) I couldn't get the idea of a Pokemon-themed Buffy uberfic out of my head and now I really want to write it. Help meeeee D:


The only way to solve this is to write it I'm afraid, Danni. DO IT.



> I just can't pair Giles with any of the other Scoobies. It's just, like Harle said, the bad kind of incest (and I just typed "insect" and it wouldn't be a good kind of that, either). The bit in WTWTA where Willow says she used to have a crush on Giles scares me as much as it does Xander.
> Actually, I don't like any of the Scoobies paired together much. I can kind get my head around Willow/Xander, but it, like everything else, just messes up the brilliant relationships they canonally have with each other and the idea of that makes me sad ):


I knowwww it's like "D:" It's the worst kind of incest in the woooorld. I'm totally down with like idk other kinds, but Buffy/Giles is a bit icky. Buffy/Willow wouldn't sit that well with me either, but tbf maybe that's because I'm gay.

ALSO TODAY I got the Angel boxset. It's going to take me AGES to get through everything - SGA 5, the entire Angel series, Battlestar Galactica and all sorts of wonderful things including Russell Howard's Dodiedingles tour. 

BUT I WILL GET AROUND TO ANGEL. Because it is necessary for like idk life.


----------



## Dannichu

You SHOULD! You've got a bunch of free days off now and it's bloody freezing outside, so you should just sit in bed and write slashy Buffyfic. You know you want to :D
My fic's around 9000 words now (wrote some more the other night when the bloody internet died) and I have a fairly massive plan written out for it - I never usually plan fics, so the fact I have some idea where the story's going helps. 
The Buffy/Pokemon fic's still up in the air, though. Hurr.

I really should watch more Angel; I've only seen a few episodes. I think my housemate said she was getting (or at least asking for) the Angel boxset for Christmas, but I haven't spoken with her yet. Haha, I'm such a brilliant friend; "Ruth, did you get Angel? Alex, did you get S3 of Torchwood? Well WHY NOT??"

I got a set of Buffy Top Trumps (which I adore perhaps more than a 20-year-old should) and the Buffy PS2 game for Christmas X3 I haven't played the PS2 game yet - I've heard it's awful, but I don't care - and the first thing I did when I got it was check Tara was in it. She is XD
Also, on an amusing (to me, at least) note, while they got lots of the actual character's actors to do the voicework in the game, they didn't get SMG or Alyson Hannigan, but in place of AH, Kari Whalgren (who, among other roles, voiced Raine, my favourite character in Tales of Symphonia - the white-haired girl who used to be my blinking avvie) voices Willow. This thrilled me beyond all measure :D

Also! Happy holidays, guys :3


----------



## Keltena

fjkal;sjdfkl;jasfie;sanm lk;sajlkdf

...fjsai;cioesneifjeslka;fjsk!!

;__;

"The Body". Oh my god. I pretty much held it together until Anya broke down in front of Willow... I think that's my new favorite scene in the whole series so far. Yes, beating out the one with Willow and Spike in "The Initiative".

brb crying into a pillow and then maybe going off to watch "Intervention" and "Tough Love", which are the next two.


----------



## Dannichu

Whaaaa, that scene is absolutely _amazing_. So, so sad ):
Enjoy the rest of S5 - I promise it's absolutely amazing and the ending could not be more epic.
(though the ending of Tough Love is heartbreaking, just to warn you)

I got the big boxset of The West Wing for Christmas and am absolutely loving it so far, and revelling in spotting any Buffy actors. The guy who played Jesse (Xander and Willow's friend who died in the first episode) starts hitting on the president's daughter at some point, which I found really funny, and in another scene with a bunch of politicians, there was one guy I knew I recognised, but couldn't think where from. So I paused to screen, stared intently at it for a few minutes, before deafening poor Grabby yelling "Oh my God, that's Tara's dad!" XD I think there were one or two others, too. 
And one of the main characters voiced Nala in TLK, which is also really funny.


----------



## Minish

Dannichu said:


> I got a set of Buffy Top Trumps (which I adore perhaps more than a 20-year-old should) and the Buffy PS2 game for Christmas X3 I haven't played the PS2 game yet - I've heard it's awful, but I don't care - and the first thing I did when I got it was check Tara was in it. She is XD
> Also, on an amusing (to me, at least) note, while they got lots of the actual character's actors to do the voicework in the game, they didn't get SMG or Alyson Hannigan, but in place of AH, Kari Whalgren (who, among other roles, voiced Raine, my favourite character in Tales of Symphonia - the white-haired girl who used to be my blinking avvie) voices Willow. This thrilled me beyond all measure :D
> 
> Also! Happy holidays, guys :3


Apparently my sister was given the Buffy Top Trumps by my cousin ages ago, and I never knew about it. O_O And now she can't find them. I would have felt silly saying I desperately want to find them, but I feel better about it now that you have them too. XD And not only did Kari Wahlgren voice Raine and Willow in the PS2 game, she also played Ashe, my favourite FFXII character. :D

OHGOD the Gentlemen scare me even while wearing Christmas hats, apparently. XDD Wow, that is so awesome. But now I'll never be able to hear someone say 'Santa' without me thinking of the Gentlemen floating down the chimney. ;_;

Has anyone read the Wild Mass Guessing page on TV Tropes for Buffy? (here) It's really interesting, my favourite theories from it are that the Whoverse and the Buffyverse are connected (you have to admit, that would be awesome. And that Jack Harkness is the Immortal mentioned in Angel), that Tara is evil (sorry, Danni XD), that Dawn really DID die in The Gift and everything after is Buffy's psychological creation, Willow had a big crush on Jenny (which would make sense that she was so interested in magic, considering the parallels between Buffy magic and sex), and Cassie's name being written in a Death Note. Okay, that last one's cracky, but the rest I really like. And the Season 5 episodes all matching up very well with the Major Arena from the Tarot is _really_ interesting. I'd quote it here, but it'd be really long, so go check out the page!

I'm also now convinced that Willow _is_ bi, after reading that particular theory. >_> It just annoys me so much that Willow shows _no_ interest in boys and then suddenly becomes exclusively lesbian.


----------



## Dannichu

Kari Whalgren voices absolutely loads of characters in all kinds of games and anime. She was Shelke in Dirge of Cerberus, too, and so many times I've watched a random anime series and recognised her voice playing some woman. The PW fandom is in almost universal agreement that if there's a PW anime, she should voice Mia. And Cam Clarke should be Edgey :)

Tara being evil was a huge fan theory for quite a while; it doesn't surprise me, especially since it took ages to get an explanation for her deliberately messing up the demon locator spell in Goodbye Iowa, and the logical explanation was either a) she was a demon, or b) she was working for the bad guys and didn't want the demon found (though that makes less sense, since they were looking for a polgara demon at the time and it wasn't a polgara but actually Adam, who probably wouldn't have shown up). But yeah.

I've seen Willow/Jenny fics before. One-sided ones, but still. I think it's fairly adorable (less weird than Willow having a crush on Giles, which still disturbs me), and it would've been awesome if it'd been mentioned in canon. 
I admit your "It just annoys me so much that Willow shows no interest in boys and then suddenly becomes exclusively lesbian." made me giggle, but I know what you meant. It was fairly annoying that her sexuality did a complete, unexplained (Amber being gorgeous notwithstanding) 180, but it wasn't entirely sudden; as early as A New Man (the first time W&T met up after Hush and did the rose levitation spell), Willow lied about where she was to Buffy, so one assumes she realized there were feeling fairly early, but they aren't really addressed at all until Who Are You?, and not explained until New Moon Rising. Plus, as I think Butterfree mentioned before, in late S4/early S5 there are a couple of instances where Willow does mention attraction to guys (Giles in WTWTA, Dracula in Buffy Vs. Dracula), but by mid-S5 these pretty much stop happening and she identifies as a lesbian. It was a 'figuring out' thing, as explained by canon (and quite adorably by Willow in Hell's Bells; "It's a good thing I figured out I was gay, else... you, me... formal clothes..."), but not explained very well at all at the time.


----------



## Keltena

...still two episodes to go of S5, but I saw Once More, With Feeling at my brother's friend's house (it's the only episode he's seen; I need to get that guy into BtVS), and... OHGODTHEEPIC<3333

I can't choose a favorite song... Under Your Spell is beautiful, I'll Never Tell is hilarious and perfect, Standing is gorgeous and sad, Rest in Peace is awesomely catchy, and Walk Through the Fire is just EPIC. I got slightly spoiled for late S5/early S6, but oh well, it was _so_ worth it. =D


----------



## Dannichu

I knoooooow it's so, so good <3333 

Funny story; back when I was at school and at the height of my musical obsession, a friend of mine kept telling me to watch the Buffy musical ep because it was epic and I kept saying "Yeah, but I don't know the characters, blah blah" and oh, what a fool I was.

Except it is much better when you know the characters, but still. I might've gotten into Buffy sooner! :D

My favourite OMWF song changed pretty much daily, but I *think* my favourite is the reprise of Under Your Spell, mostly because Amber and Tony sound _amazing_ together.

In more "amusing people from Buffy on The West Wing" news, the woman in Where The Wild Things Are who was all "the children had unnatural sexual desires! D<" is the secretary to the president X3


----------



## Harlequin

Dannichu said:


> Kari Whalgren voices absolutely loads of characters in all kinds of games and anime. She was Shelke in Dirge of Cerberus, too, and so many times I've watched a random anime series and recognised her voice playing some woman. The PW fandom is in almost universal agreement that if there's a PW anime, she should voice Mia. And Cam Clarke should be Edgey :)
> 
> Tara being evil was a huge fan theory for quite a while; it doesn't surprise me, especially since it took ages to get an explanation for her deliberately messing up the demon locator spell in Goodbye Iowa, and the logical explanation was either a) she was a demon, or b) she was working for the bad guys and didn't want the demon found (though that makes less sense, since they were looking for a polgara demon at the time and it wasn't a polgara but actually Adam, who probably wouldn't have shown up). But yeah.
> 
> I've seen Willow/Jenny fics before. One-sided ones, but still. I think it's fairly adorable (less weird than Willow having a crush on Giles, which still disturbs me), and it would've been awesome if it'd been mentioned in canon.
> I admit your "It just annoys me so much that Willow shows no interest in boys and then suddenly becomes exclusively lesbian." made me giggle, but I know what you meant. It was fairly annoying that her sexuality did a complete, unexplained (Amber being gorgeous notwithstanding) 180, but it wasn't entirely sudden; as early as A New Man (the first time W&T met up after Hush and did the rose levitation spell), Willow lied about where she was to Buffy, so one assumes she realized there were feeling fairly early, but they aren't really addressed at all until Who Are You?, and not explained until New Moon Rising. Plus, as I think Butterfree mentioned before, in late S4/early S5 there are a couple of instances where Willow does mention attraction to guys (Giles in WTWTA, Dracula in Buffy Vs. Dracula), but by mid-S5 these pretty much stop happening and she identifies as a lesbian. It was a 'figuring out' thing, as explained by canon (and quite adorably by Willow in Hell's Bells; "It's a good thing I figured out I was gay, else... you, me... formal clothes..."), but not explained very well at all at the time.


It's not like it was never hinted at, either. Vampire Willow from The Wish, anyone? It could be handwaved by "pfft, vampire!" but Vampire Xander didn't show any homosexual inclinations... Honestly, I think most of us here understand how difficult to work out sexuality is. Give the girl a break! :P


----------



## Minish

I do understand that Willow suddenly being lesbian wasn't totally out-of-the-blue or anything, but it just seems like another case of 'bisexuals don't exist'. When Willow told Buffy she was interested in girls, Buffy never asked whether she was bisexual. Nobody ever mentions bisexuality. Tara and Kennedy are both lesbians, the only other bisexuality hinted at is by vampires, and that doesn't exactly help. :/

I just think it would have made perfect, lovely canonical sense if Willow had been bisexual. It was just a shame to hear that the show had been so revolutionary in having a non-straight character, and it turns out that it follows the 'no bisexuals' cliché.

Willow didn't break up with Oz because she didn't find him sexually attractive anymore, it was because she had fallen in love with someone else. I always thought it was implied that Willow would have stayed with Oz for a long time had he not left.

Eh, I dunno. :/

I understand that this _does_ happen to people -- hell, I was pretty sure I was a lesbian less than a year ago and I'd never even had a crush on a girl, ever. And I know sexuality is fluid and confusing, Harlequin. Which is why I don't like how it was suddenly Straight -> Lesbian, very suddenly, and (to me) with absolutely no warning or even a transition phase whatsoever. We didn't see Willow wonder whether she was gay, or, really, whether she was bisexual, which is what most people do for quite a long time. If alternative sexualities were going to be brought into the show (which is a great thing, of course), then I wish it had been dwelt on just a little bit more for Willow's development...


----------



## PK

Season 8 is WEIRD and makes little to no sense.


----------



## Harlequin

Cirrus said:


> I do understand that Willow suddenly being lesbian wasn't totally out-of-the-blue or anything, but it just seems like another case of 'bisexuals don't exist'. When Willow told Buffy she was interested in girls, Buffy never asked whether she was bisexual. Nobody ever mentions bisexuality. Tara and Kennedy are both lesbians, the only other bisexuality hinted at is by vampires, and that doesn't exactly help. :/


No, yeah, I do get that completely. I think it was a compromise at the time. Lesbianism was already controversial enough, but someone who likes men _and_ women?! I mean yeah, okay, so so far we've only seen lesbians. What about the gays? There are no gays, either. (Well, Andrew likes to _think_ he's not a gay...)



> I just think it would have made perfect, lovely canonical sense if Willow had been bisexual. It was just a shame to hear that the show had been so revolutionary in having a non-straight character, and it turns out that it follows the 'no bisexuals' cliché.


Yeah, I get what you're saying. It's like I said up there, though, with the "wait she likes girls AS WELL AS boys?!" thing. Not that that's a reason not to do it, I just think it probably factored in a bit. 



> Willow didn't break up with Oz because she didn't find him sexually attractive anymore, it was because she had fallen in love with someone else. I always thought it was implied that Willow would have stayed with Oz for a long time had he not left.


Would she have, though? I know a man who had a wife for like twenty years and then one day he was like "oh shit I'm gay". I mean he probably carried on the charade for a bit but I don't think he'd do it for _over twenty years_. AFAIK it was a creeping realisation thing, and probably that would have happened to Willow. Bear in mind that Tara was her soulmate, too, so, er, yeah. IDK.

I quite like the "lesbianism as an attempt to show confidence and blah blah blah" theory, though. IDK.




> I understand that this _does_ happen to people -- hell, I was pretty sure I was a lesbian less than a year ago and I'd never even had a crush on a girl, ever. And I know sexuality is fluid and confusing, Harlequin. Which is why I don't like how it was suddenly Straight -> Lesbian, very suddenly, and (to me) with absolutely no warning or even a transition phase whatsoever. We didn't see Willow wonder whether she was gay, or, really, whether she was bisexual, which is what most people do for quite a long time. If alternative sexualities were going to be brought into the show (which is a great thing, of course), then I wish it had been dwelt on just a little bit more for Willow's development...


I wasn't being condescending, or anything. Sorry if it came across that way! Perhaps Willow _did_ wonder these things -- just not aloud, or where we could hear her. Which admittedly is pure speculation and utterly meaningless to our current conversation, but I'm _guessing_ she did question herself quite a lot. Willow did get a _hell_ of a lot of development without the "AM I BI" "AM I GAY" "AM I A FISH" issues anyway. (Although I actually kind of dislike Dark Willow, because 



Spoiler: season 8 comics



if she didn't even kill Warren, what the FUCK was the point in that? The only redeeming feature of Dark Willow is that she got rid of Tara's killer, and removing that pretty much removes the entire point of the whole thing. But then Dark Willow allowed Willow to realise just how powerful she was and aided in her transition to MOTHER GODDESS WILLOW WHO CAN FLYYYYYYY so idk.


----------



## Butterfree

Willow could for that matter be bi, or have transitioned through a period of being bi even though she ended up going exclusively for girls, but they just felt explicitly bringing bisexuality into it would complicate things (especially with the "will have sex with anything that moves" stereotype associated with it, which could make viewers feel like her relationship with Tara was just a sex thing) so they use the word "lesbian" essentially to describe "is currently in a committed relationship with a girl".


----------



## Dannichu

Butterfree has a point; while there's obviously nothing wrong with bisexuality, much of society, and especially TV, doesn't seem to _get_ it. 

Not only back in th' day of Buffy was bisexuality perhaps too much of a touchy subject - the extent to which lesbianism was shown was pioneering (Joss had to fight tooth and nail to keep Willow and Tara's kiss in The Body in the ep, and the Willow/Kennedy sex scene (which I actually couldn't bring myself to watch) was the first lesbian sex scene ever shown on daytime TV), and to show a bisexual character at that time might have been just that one step too contraversial (this show aired on Fox, remember), there are also a whole number of issues associated (very wrongly) with bisexuality that the writers might not have wanted to address. I'm not making excuses for them, though, and I think it'd have been great if they could have shown a bisexual character in a loving, monogamous relationship (actually, showing a lesbian in such a relationship was pretty much unheard of at that time, since lesbians, when shown on '90s TV, were almost exclusively overly sexual, promiscuous and always ended up dead. ...one could argue that two out of three isn't bad ><), especially since those stereotypes are perpetuated in TV _today._ 
I love House, but having the bisexual woman have a series of drugged-up, self-destructive one night stands with anonymous women before settling into a healthy, "normal" relationship with a man just isn't cool. 

On a totally different note, who here has seen any of Angel? My housemate got the boxset for Christmas and has been showing me some of her favourite episodes, and I'm really enjoying it. I don't think it's quite as good as Buffy - the characters aren't quites as lovable, it has way more traditional gender roles (the reversal of which was one of my absolute favourite things about Buffy), it has long plot arcs that aren't very interesting (hello, Darla!), takes itself a little too seriously at times and, uh, has no Tara. But it has lots of Joss humour and lots of wackiness and Lorne, who I adore <3


----------



## Harlequin

I _have_ the Angel boxset but I haven't had time to watch it yet. Too busy! Although I have found a guilty pleasure in BBC3's _Material Girl._


----------



## Butterfree

> On a totally different note, who here has seen any of Angel? My housemate got the boxset for Christmas and has been showing me some of her favourite episodes, and I'm really enjoying it. I don't think it's quite as good as Buffy - the characters aren't quites as lovable, it has way more traditional gender roles (the reversal of which was one of my absolute favourite things about Buffy), it has long plot arcs that aren't very interesting (hello, Darla!), takes itself a little too seriously at times and, uh, has no Tara. But it has lots of Joss humour and lots of wackiness and Lorne, who I adore <3


Shadey and I have been watching Angel, or rather we watched the first few episodes and then Shadey went and watched ahead so now he's somewhere in season five and I'm still in season two. I agree on the characters not being as lovable; on Buffy I adored practically _everyone_ in their own different ways, but I don't really care about Angel, Wesley or Cordelia (though she has gotten a lot more fun since Buffy and can be very amusing), which makes me a lot less interested in it. But on the plus side, it can indeed be very amusing in various ways and though Angel still doesn't really interest me, I do like him somewhat more than in Buffy too.

I'm still looking forward to seeing those episodes you mentioned sometime (the one with everyone losing their recent memories and the one with Angel being turned into a puppet). Shadey's seen them both now and I haven't. D:



> I love House, but having the bisexual woman have a series of drugged-up, self-destructive one night stands with anonymous women before settling into a healthy, "normal" relationship with a man just isn't cool.


God, that really bothered me too. ><


----------



## Dannichu

I think it might be that my love for the Scooby Gang was at its highest when there were a lot of them (the Core four, Anya, Tara and even Dawn and Spike), so going from that to Angel where there are only three main characters is a bit of a shock, but I didn't like the first series of Angel too much; maybe, like Buffy in its infancy, it felt a bit like it was getting its feet and trying to figure out what to do with its characters and the plot, especially in terms of characters we already knew, but needed to see differently because they're on a different show now. 

I haven't seen all of it, only episodes all over the place, but my feeling is it hits its stride around the end of S2. The S2 finale is an excellent arc spanning three episodes (Joss himself guest-stars as a dancing demon and knowing it's him makes it a million times funnier) and I was talking to my friend who says she's seen it a whole bunch of times, and _always_ forgets what happens at the very end (Hint: S2 of Angel happens in the same timeline as S5 of Buffy, so you can guess what bad news they're told at the very end).

The losing the recent memories ep isn't quite as fun as Tabula Rasa in the fun part (but perhaps preferable because it doesn't have the ANGST), but the way it's told - it's presented to the viewer in the form of Lorne doing standup, which I personally found hilarious - is excellent.

My absolute favourite scene in Angel (one of my favourite scenes in anything, ever, I think) is an episode in which Angel (minor )becomes human for an ep. The scene where he rediscovers how tasty food is is brilliant, but the crowning moment, for me, is when he and Buffy get together to discuss it, leaving Cordy and Doyle to speculate what's going to happen and what the two of them are doing. Cordy's line, "Oh, please! They've got the forbidden love of all time. They've been apart for months. Now he's suddenly human? I'm sure they're down there just having tea and crackers."
And the scene abruptly cuts to Angel pouring Buffy some tea, asking "Would you like some more?"

Makes me nearly cry laughing every time. XD


----------



## Butterfree

> (Joss himself guest-stars as a dancing demon and knowing it's him makes it a million times funnier)


A dancing demon! No, wait, something isn't right there...

(Sorry, couldn't resist. x3)

Hee, I loved that scene you spoilered, too. And Angel going all "...FOOOD! OH GOD FOOD I LOVE IT!" It was so delightfully out-of-character-yet-not. What bugs me, though, is that in that episode they concluded Angel could never be human, and yet in the S1 finale they discover his 'reward' is supposed to be becoming human...? @_@ Or was it something specific with the demon-guys they were fighting in that one episode?


----------



## Dannichu

Butterfree said:


> A dancing demon! No, wait, something isn't right there...
> (Sorry, couldn't resist. x3)


I have a fun story semi-related to this (in that it's geeky as hell). So the other day, my housemates and I were lounging around after a big meal, all feeling very full, and Alex says something like "I get headaches when I eat too much. Then I lie down until they go away."
So Ruth and I immediately looked up, caught each other's eyes and couldn't stop laughing at our geekiness for about ten minutes, leaving Alex and Zoe totally confused as to what the hell was so funny.

I haven't seen the end of S1 - really, just episodes from all over the place; as I type we're watching an episode (Life of the Party) from S5 - but there's a whole ton of stuff about Angel - his soul, him humanizing, all sorts - that I just don't get and have learned not to question.


----------



## Harlequin

Dannichu said:


> I think it might be that my love for the Scooby Gang was at its highest when there were a lot of them (the Core four, Anya, Tara and even Dawn and Spike), so going from that to Angel where there are only three main characters is a bit of a shock, but I didn't like the first series of Angel too much; maybe, like Buffy in its infancy, it felt a bit like it was getting its feet and trying to figure out what to do with its characters and the plot, especially in terms of characters we already knew, but needed to see differently because they're on a different show now.
> 
> I haven't seen all of it, only episodes all over the place, but my feeling is it hits its stride around the end of S2. The S2 finale is an excellent arc spanning three episodes (Joss himself guest-stars as a dancing demon and knowing it's him makes it a million times funnier) and I was talking to my friend who says she's seen it a whole bunch of times, and _always_ forgets what happens at the very end (Hint: S2 of Angel happens in the same timeline as S5 of Buffy, so you can guess what bad news they're told at the very end).
> 
> The losing the recent memories ep isn't quite as fun as Tabula Rasa in the fun part (but perhaps preferable because it doesn't have the ANGST), but the way it's told - it's presented to the viewer in the form of Lorne doing standup, which I personally found hilarious - is excellent.
> 
> My absolute favourite scene in Angel (one of my favourite scenes in anything, ever, I think) is an episode in which Angel (minor )becomes human for an ep. The scene where he rediscovers how tasty food is is brilliant, but the crowning moment, for me, is when he and Buffy get together to discuss it, leaving Cordy and Doyle to speculate what's going to happen and what the two of them are doing. Cordy's line, "Oh, please! They've got the forbidden love of all time. They've been apart for months. Now he's suddenly human? I'm sure they're down there just having tea and crackers."
> And the scene abruptly cuts to Angel pouring Buffy some tea, asking "Would you like some more?"
> 
> Makes me nearly cry laughing every time. XD


I'm really enjoying Angel so far. In fact I'm currently watching the episode you spoiler tagged and it was indeed a hilarious moment. I like Angel because it's Buffy but fare more adult in tone, and it pulls it off well.

IDK, maybe I just wanted more Buffy. I like it, though! 

... also this episode is so tragic. ; ; 

"God I love food." :(:(:(:( poor, poor Angel.

DAMN IT David Boreanaz is so hot with his clothes off and in bed with SMG and and and and.



Butterfree said:


> A dancing demon! No, wait, something isn't right there...
> 
> (Sorry, couldn't resist. x3)
> 
> Hee, I loved that scene you spoilered, too. And Angel going all "...FOOOD! OH GOD FOOD I LOVE IT!" It was so delightfully out-of-character-yet-not. What bugs me, though, is that in that episode they concluded Angel could never be human, and yet in the S1 finale they discover his 'reward' is supposed to be becoming human...? @_@ Or was it something specific with the demon-guys they were fighting in that one episode?





Spoiler: Angel, season eight comics



Well, I think the point was that Angel couldn't be human *at that point* because he still had a job to do. Maybe when his job is done he finally gets to become human and live happily ever after with Buffy? who is no longer a Slayer because idk Melaka Fray?


----------



## Dannichu

Spoiler: uh, something. I dunno. Possibly the S8 comics?



Re: Melaka Fray - I haven't read the S8 comics, but Mel's the main character in Joss' other comic, Fray, and she's a slayer from the future- I don't get how (I assume she travels back in time, if she's in the Buffy comics?) she gets to wherever Buffy is, but I don't get why it'd make her not a slayer? I'm very confused o.O


----------



## Harlequin

Spoiler: S8 comics in reply to Danni



Well, _Buffy_ travels through time to Melaka Fray's time period and meets her there. There, the BIG BAD of the S8 comics _won_ and caused all magic and demons to be banished from Earth, thus ending the Slayer line and undoing all of Buffy & co's work in SHARING THE POWER and stuff. 

SO: In the future there are no Slayers or demons or anything. Then BAM comes along Melaka Fray who's like the first Slayer in two hundred years or something. And then she meets Buffy in the future. And Buffy does some stuff and then Willow is all "COME BACK BUFFYYYYYY" and drags her back into the past. But yeah. At some point between season eight and _Fray_, all the Slayers are de-Slayerised.





Spoiler: Angel: After the Fall comics



ACTUALLY I DISCOVERED THAT ANGEL DOES BECOME HUMAN! In the A:AtF comic books he's human after some p. wacky stuff goes on. So. yeah.


----------



## Dannichu

Aaaaaaaaaah, okay. That, uh, makes some kind of sense, I guess. I'm marginally closer to understanding it now, thanks :D

So I have a fun story (well, it amuses me at least); I was reading the Buffy Watcher's Guide Vol 2 (a book about BtVS that covers S3 and 4) and there's an interview with Amber Benson in there, but the interview's done before Hush even happens, so some f it is speculation about Tara's character. The interviewer asks if she thinks Tara's likely to be a good or bad character, and Amber says something like "I kind of hope she's good. My grandparents are born-again Christians and if I'm a good character, they can watch it."


----------



## Keltena

Saw 'Seeing Red'. Just... oh my god.

Such a happy, funny episode ("No, don't stop! I'll go downstairs... and watch TV loudly... in the basement! Keep doing what you're doing!", "I guess he never really loved... uh, hanging out with us.", etc.~), and then right at the end...

God. My brain is dead. My heart might be as well.

(On a different note: what is this i don't even)


----------



## Harlequin

Oh. My. God. 

I fucking _love_ Drusilla. She is the best character _ever_. So deliciously insane! I watched most of the Angel episodes with her last night and I have to say: I have never laughed so hard in my life. Drusilla is hilarious but oh-so-creepy at the same time. 

Her lines are _amazing. _<3 Drusilla.


----------



## Dannichu

Salamander said:


> Saw 'Seeing Red'. Just... oh my god.


Muuuuuuh, oh, I KNOW DDD: Did you know it was coming?

I just couldn't enjoy or really be at all emtionally invested in the end of S6t after that. I know a lot of people think the next few episodes are some of the best in the whole series, but I just can't bring myself to care. ;~;

Seconding the Dru love. Still not as good as Anya and Tara, but a hilarious character nonetheless.


----------



## Harlequin

You know what else is awesome? _David Boreanaz's smile_. It should be a capital offence to have a smille that adorable. _IT IS SO GOOD.

_... I realise that this is lost on most of you, given your rampant lesbianism, but perhaps Butterfree can appreciate the _wonder that is David Boreanaz and his smile._


----------



## Dannichu

Haha, the other day on Fandomsecrets there was a freaking hilarious secret by someone who hated David Bananas with the firey rage of a million suns. I think the exact wording was "I scream when he's on television, I think I'd kill him if I saw him in the street". 

I love how well-adjusted most internet users are.


----------



## Minish

Salamander said:


> (On a different note: what is this i don't even)


Oh God that is hilarious. XD ...apart from the fact that everyone playing Spike uses 'bloody' _way_ too much. He didn't even abuse the word that much in the show...



Dannichu said:


> Haha, the other day on Fandomsecrets there was a freaking hilarious secret by someone who hated David Bananas with the firey rage of a million suns. I think the exact wording was "I scream when he's on television, I think I'd kill him if I saw him in the street".
> 
> I love how well-adjusted most internet users are.


XD That's all I'll ever think when someone says 'Fandomsecrets' now. The one person who wants to murder David Bananas (*copies you, his surname is annoying*).

...I have no idea why I haven't posted in here for absolutely ages. But I'm watching Angel and just thought 'oh man, I wish I had somewhere to ramble about Buffyverse stuff' and then was like '...OMG THE BUFFY CLUB :D'

A few episodes through the first season now, it's pretty good! I actually didn't expect it to be this funny, since most reviews I see tend to be all ANGEL IS DARKER AND HAS NO HUMOUR EEEE. It's very much to Buffy how Torchwood is to Doctor Who (in many ways... creepy. Well, apart from the gayness. Ain't nothing that can beat TW gayness.) but I do like it.

Also, I love how in the Critically Touched review of the Spike episode (In the Dark?) the reviewer is all 'oh wow Spike just seems like such a level above all other baddies, you can really tell he's dangerous' and... to me, he just seems like a slightly irrational wild animal at times. XD Seriously, he just comes and attacks Angel because he got bored of planning, and then pretty much gets beaten up a bit? Okay, he can fight well, but all I could see was the Spike from S5 Buffy: sliiightly pathetic, whereas in S2 Buffy he and Drusilla were very much 'oh my god they are so on a different level'. Meh.

And I bought S5 of Angel for no reason in particular other than... it was there in a shop. To anyone who's watched all of Angel, will it be okay to watch it and not get attacked my too many spoilers I know all about Connor and Darla (wtf btw), Cordelia/Connor, the gist of Illyria, that Spike's come back (obviously), and that Doyle died over three seasons ago. Really I just don't want the other seasons to be ruined if I go ahead and watch S5, like if the show completely changed during that period. I will watch the rest of Angel eventually, I... just want to see Spike. And I'm shameless about it. XD; Anyone help me out here? I mean, it won't be like skipping out four seasons of Buffy or anything, right? I'm impaaatient...


----------



## Harlequin

It will definitely be like skipping four seasons of Buffy. Watch them in order. Srs. I've nearly finished with season three and if _I_ skipped to season five I'd be completely screwed.

I think I actually _prefer_ Angel to Buffy because of the darker tone. It seems a lot more dangerous, as if the existence of all of these horrible things is actually a bad thing. 

BUT YEAH, watch it as it was meant to be watched or you'll be utterly confused.


----------



## Butterfree

Harlequin said:


> You know what else is awesome? _David Boreanaz's smile_. It should be a capital offence to have a smille that adorable. _IT IS SO GOOD.
> 
> _... I realise that this is lost on most of you, given your rampant lesbianism, but perhaps Butterfree can appreciate the _wonder that is David Boreanaz and his smile._


David Boreanaz does nothing for me, sorry. :( Okay, slightly more when he smiles, but Angel does awfully little smiling, and even when he does it's more "oh, look at that, he smiled".

To be honest, I think one of the reasons I'm not as interested in Angel as in Buffy is that I still find him kind of boring, both character and actor. That and his damned voice is so deep and mumbly that I can never make out half of his lines without subtitles. <_<

I wish I could like Angel more because then I could actually get a move on with the series and get to season five which has Spike and stuff. D:


----------



## Minish

Butterfree said:


> David Boreanaz does nothing for me, sorry. :( Okay, slightly more when he smiles, but Angel does awfully little smiling, and even when he does it's more "oh, look at that, he smiled".


Same. And I should be allowed to say so since I'm only half a rampant lesbian. XP He's just... kind of blah, for lack of a better word. Not exactly boring like how I find Tara, but... blah.

There have been moments where I _really_ like Angel -- I have no idea what makes him different in these moments, but it tends to be where he can be all deadpan and derisive. Thinking of Halloween (I think) where he was all 'whut why is buffy an idiot today?' and clueless.

I have to say that I like him a bit more in Angel. The emoness is a liiiittle too cliché and cheesy for my liking, but like Danni said... er, at some point, he's a lot more likeable in his own show. Also, I love Doyle. <3 And yet I know he dies soon. Sob. ;_;

Also... cheers, Harlequin. Definitely going to watch all of it before 5 now. But argh, the lack of Spike depresses me.

Speaking of Spike, I feel a little creeped out that in In the Dark, Spike was pretty much S2 psychopath Spike, and then... chronologically, he's staying in Giles' house as soon as he returns to Sunnydale. I know you don't know he just tried to murder (and got someone to torture) your boyfriend/ex, but still... creeps me out a little. I'm starting to see why so many people find the whole subject of Spike and his relations with the Scoobies a little disturbing at times.

And I've _never_ gotten over how downright dangerous he was when they were all 'We don't like Spike, but he's fairly useful so we don't mind when he talks to us' in S5 and parts of S4. I know he was all chip'd up, but that doesn't exactly take all his danger away. Just scares me a little. :/


----------



## Dannichu

I'm totally with you on the creepiness of everyone suddenly accepting Spike into the big Scooby family. I never understood why Buffy didn't stake him in S4 - yes, he was useful, but he was obviously a loose cannon and it seemed irresponsible of Buffy not to stake him on sight. :/

I haven't seen any of Angel S5, but I've heard that a) there's a hilarious episode with Spike involving a trip to Rome (??), and b) while most Buffy fans enjoy seeing him again, his sudden presence kinda rocks the boat and disrupts the group dynamic Angel and co. had before. Dunno if that's true.


----------



## Minish

But then, you also have to worry about Anya. I've never been able to truly love her as much as other fans do because of, well, she _was_ a vengeance demon. Who tortured men. And it's pretty much cheerfully referred to a few times, but nobody ever feels particularly off about it -- S7 only proves how easily she could just go back to her job.

Maybe I missed something in the show or something, it just seemed to me that Anyanka and Anya were pretty much treated the same by the Scoobies when she was in S7, and she was accepted 100%, way faster than Tara was.

I already knew Anya was going to be part of the Scoobies before I watched, so when I watched the Wish I was pretty much thinking 'um... HOW can this be the same Anya everyone always talks about?'


----------



## Harlequin

fffff I hate you guys and your unappreciation of David Boreanaz. His  acting skills aren't the best but he's so hot that I just don't _care_.  And when he does that adorable dorky smile it's just _swoooon_.

 @Danni: yyyyyeah for some reason Spike and Angel end up in Rome and  there's this thing with this guy and yeah. It's mentioned in the comics,  too!

@Cirrus: well I think the difference with Anya is that torturing men was  Anya's _job_, and she put away the evil when she became a human.  Plus her heart wasn't really _in_ it when she took up the job after  HER HEARTBREAK, woe. Spike was a soulless, evil bastard who was really  more like an animal than a person at times.

Plus Anya was *human* -- if you've noticed there's a big, big  difference between "humans" and "non-humans" in Buffy. Non-humans tend  to have little to no value unless it's for the plot, whereas humans are  rarely killed unless their irredeemably evil.

idk Anya had the funniest lines so you couldn't hate her, really. she was awesome.


----------



## Butterfree

I _like_ messed-up characters who do messed-up things. Yay for Spike and Anya! :D

...okay so it doesn't quite make sense they'd keep them around but THEY'RE HILARIOUS AND AWESOME TO WATCH AND THAT MAKES IT OKAY. Totally. <_<


----------



## Minish

Harlequin said:


> fffff I hate you guys and your unappreciation of David Boreanaz. His  acting skills aren't the best but he's so hot that I just don't _care_.  And when he does that adorable dorky smile it's just _swoooon_.
> 
> @Danni: yyyyyeah for some reason Spike and Angel end up in Rome and  there's this thing with this guy and yeah. It's mentioned in the comics,  too!
> 
> @Cirrus: well I think the difference with Anya is that torturing men was  Anya's _job_, and she put away the evil when she became a human.  Plus her heart wasn't really _in_ it when she took up the job after  HER HEARTBREAK, woe. Spike was a soulless, evil bastard who was really  more like an animal than a person at times.
> 
> Plus Anya was *human* -- if you've noticed there's a big, big  difference between "humans" and "non-humans" in Buffy. Non-humans tend  to have little to no value unless it's for the plot, whereas humans are  rarely killed unless their irredeemably evil.
> 
> idk Anya had the funniest lines so you couldn't hate her, really. she was awesome.


But... those are such silly reasons. :/  There _was_ a big difference between humans and non-humans, but I thought the point was that by the end of the entire show, everyone had learnt that things simply weren't that black and white.

Just because it was her 'job' doesn't mean it's right. That means Anya actually had a choice, whereas Spike didn't. And yet Spike _still_ was so different from an ordinary vampire when he got the chip. I think it's even worse that Anya should be excused just because it was her 'job'. And sure, she put the evil away when she became human -- but it was established that it _wasn't_ because she saw such a big difference between good and evil. She never showed any remorse whatsoever. I know that was played for comedy value, but it still seems totally off when Spike was focused on so much.

Spike _was_ a soulless, evil bastard, but he knew that, I think. Whereas Anya never acted like she saw much difference in being how she used to be and what she became beyond "oh no this means I'm mortal!".

And heyyy, I totally don't hate Anya! I love her. XD It's just that to me, this seems a bit weird.


----------



## Lupine Volt

Well, finally found this place! I'm also a Buffy-holic(And an Angel-Holic as soon as Hulu begins the first season again). I've only seen the first three seasons, but I love the show. It's...captivating. It draws you in. 

And, on the note of David Boreanaz, I'd have to agree. He has a nice smile. (Him and Jeff Davis...)

Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got to hunt down the fourth season. *Off to Google*


----------



## Dannichu

Cirrus said:


> I thought the point was that by the end of the entire show, everyone had learnt that things simply weren't that black and white.


This is a big part of the reason why I didn't enjoy S7. The whole show, pretty much from Giles's excellent quote in Lie to Me; "It's terribly simple. The good-guys are stalwart and true. The bad-guys are easily distinguished by their pointy horns or black hats and we always defeat them and save the day. Nobody ever dies... and everybody lives happily ever after.", sets about dismantling everything he says, with the enemies and friends in every season getting less black-and-white good-and-evil until the the ultimate blurring of the lines in the S6 finale... and then in S7 we just go back to everything being handily set out in terms of moral absolutes. What was black-and-white about Caleb? And could they have possibly been less subtle than making the S7 Big Bad the essence of all evil itself? 



Spoiler: S7



They could have done excellent things with Willow having to seek redemption for all the bad she did in S6, but there's an episode of readjustment and that's about it. "She's Willow! Of course she's a good guy!" S7 had so, so much potential, but it tripped over itself again and again.





Animorph said:


> Well, finally found this place! I'm also a Buffy-holic(And an Angel-Holic as soon as Hulu begins the first season again). I've only seen the first three seasons, but I love the show. It's...captivating. It draws you in.
> 
> And, on the note of David Boreanaz, I'd have to agree. He has a nice smile. (Him and Jeff Davis...)
> 
> Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got to hunt down the fourth season. *Off to Google*


Eeeeee! :DDD I absolutely adore S4. The plot's a bit eh, but the episodes are mostly absolutely fantastic in every way <3

Who's your favourite chracter?


----------



## Minish

I agree with you on S7, Dannichu. Caleb was pretty much the worst villain of the entire show, I have no idea why he was even brought in. _Why_ was the S7 Big Bad's main trait 'oh look I'm a misogynist!' ...there are a lot of other ideas the show has explored other than feminism. And you're right, there was nothing grey about him at all, it was like the creators had just completely blanked out while creating a final villain.

I loved what the First could have been. I only realised near the end of S7 that the First wasn't in fact, the First Slayer, which was what I had thought -- it's why whenever I hear "Now through the smoke, she calls to me..." in OMWF, I think of my first assumption, that it's the First Slayer. I have no idea why I did, by the way, I just think they could have done more with the Slayer. Why couldn't the S7 Big Bad be something cool like the angry, pained First Slayer? Her... spirit or whatever could be what Buffy could have become, angry at what she had had to become.

...maybe that's just me. o_O Still think it would have been more interesting. Plus, I would have liked to learn more about earlier Slayers and how they first came about, rather than "a bunch of men did it".

I liked S4 a lot when I first watched it, but then S5 came about and I kind of forgot about it. Somehow I got it into my head that I even disliked S4, but now I'm realising just how many good episodes were in it. <3 Plus I loved the whole collegy aspect, and it was the first time when I realised how amazing _real_ these characters were, because Willow and Buffy in particular had grown so much since S1 in a very believable, interesting way. Plus it's before Willow started going downhill as a character. :(

Also, I found this and think it's hilarious. XD For anyone who's seen Merlin...

Also also, still watching Angel. "I've Got You Under My Skin" was good, "She" was not as bad as people say, and... yeah. Oh and I'm actually liking Wesley, totally didn't expect that. He's adorable!


----------



## Dannichu

It's not so much that they made Caleb a mysogynist that annoyed me so much - the show _has_ explored other issues than feminism, but it's still very much a core value of the show; the entire premise of Buffy was to subvert the trope of the blonde teenage girl who gets killed by the monsters in dark alleyways, and I've read more than one interview with Joss (there's an especially great one at the beginning of the Fray graphic novel) where he said most of his creations came from him being really annoyed at a lack of decent female characters in comics when he was growing up - but how badly done and heavy-handled it was. Again, comparing to the S6 finale (which, for the record, I still don't like very much), it was 



Spoiler: S6



very well-done, I thought, to have traditionally feminine, non-offensive virtues like friendship save the day, rather than Buffy's masculine all-out violence, with extra props because the friendship and love came from a male character, rather than a female one.



I love that feminism and gender relations were explored so much within the series, but I think it was a huge disservice to the show to have Caleb be "MYSOGYNIST MAN!!", when domination of women is almost always done in a much more subtle, unassuming way.



Spoiler: S4



S4 was the time when Buffy went from being something "Really cool" to "OMG best show ever" for me. I've said it before, I think, but I think it's extra-special for me because I watched it shortly after just having started university and coming up against all the same things that Buffy did in the first few episodes - being alone in a crowd, everyone else knowing what they're doing, life at home continuing without you - and Willow's relationship with Tara was, I thought, fantastically done. The fact that so many of the episodes are brilliant beyond words - A New Man, Hush, Something Blue, New Moon Rising, Fear Itself, Who Are You?, Restless, etc. only adds to why I love it so much.



Gaaah, I need to watch Merlin ):


----------



## Lupine Volt

Dannichu said:


> Eeeeee! :DDD I absolutely adore S4. The plot's a bit eh, but the episodes are mostly absolutely fantastic in every way <3
> 
> Who's your favourite chracter?


Xander at the moment. Mostly because I love the sheer comic relief of him. 

"For some reason, beating up that pirate gave me a wierd sense of closure..."

I actually found Buffy after looking up Nicolas Brendan from when he first appeared on Criminal Minds. *Amazing, because I find most of the shows that I like through this forum or TV Tropes.*


----------



## Minish

Dannichu said:


> I love that feminism and gender relations were explored so much within the series, but I think it was a huge disservice to the show to have Caleb be "MYSOGYNIST MAN!!", when domination of women is almost always done in a much more subtle, unassuming way.


Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It just seemed like such a strange character to bring in after six seasons of having feminist issues explored creatively and cleverly. I was expecting the Big Bad to be something a little bigger and better than Caleb; I actually try and convince myself the First was the _real_ Big Bad of the season (which could be said, actually), even though the First only works with my own interpretation...



> Spoiler: S4
> 
> 
> 
> S4 was the time when Buffy went from being something "Really cool" to "OMG best show ever" for me. I've said it before, I think, but I think it's extra-special for me because I watched it shortly after just having started university and coming up against all the same things that Buffy did in the first few episodes - being alone in a crowd, everyone else knowing what they're doing, life at home continuing without you - and Willow's relationship with Tara was, I thought, fantastically done. The fact that so many of the episodes are brilliant beyond words - A New Man, Hush, Something Blue, New Moon Rising, Fear Itself, Who Are You?, Restless, etc. only adds to why I love it so much.
> 
> 
> 
> Gaaah, I need to watch Merlin ):


Heh, I think that happened to me somewhere between S4 and S5, but I remember feeling quite close to S2, even though it was a very American sort of highschool. The outcast trio rarely inspires me much anymore, but for some reason, I felt like I really saw connections with the Scoobies and with my own circle of friends. Plus I adored the geekiness of Willow. <3 S2 isn't one of my favourite seasons anymore, but I think it was when the show was amazing without ever trying too hard. I think S4 and S5 were better, but they were more consciously better -- S2 always seemed so realistic and character-driven. Plus I loved the whole slightly despairing highschooly feeling to the whole season, maybe due to the way it was shot or something. I liked how everything felt brighter around S4 and S5 though too, like everything was just more grown-up when they reached college.

Okay, now I'm babbling. XD

And oops, I thought you'd watched Merlin before, haha. I know Harlequin has though... well, I think... it's pretty cool.

Also, still watching Angel. Five by Five was absolutely heartbreaking. ;_; Although I have to say, I absolutely adore Wesley. He's in the same position as Spike -- I disliked them both when they first appeared, but now I love them... for some reason that happens a lot to me. XD Is it just me or is there quite a bit of Angel/Wesley slashiness in early S2? Maybe it's just because I paused it yesterday to get something, and when I came back it looked like they were in, er... very compromising positions. And then I unpaused it and Wesley said "...now about the whole naked thing." I'm sure it would have all made sense if I had remembered the previous scene, but... yeah, rather amusing when watched out of context. XDD


----------



## Minish

I know this is double posting, but man, I don't care. Nobody's posted for aaages. ;-; Plus this thread is totally worth being bumped up~

Okay, I'm in the middle of watching Season 5 of Angel now. And it has been an amazing ride. I know Buffy is clearly the superior show, but Angel has been so much more consistent in quality, when considering S6-7 of Buffy.

I also like Angel's characters, overall, maybe a little bit more. Don't get me wrong, I adore Giles, Spike, Willow and Buffy, but most of the other characters (I'm thinking Xander and Tara in particular, as well as Anya, Dawn etc.) but Angel's have gripped me a lot more. Gunn and post-S3 Cordelia are a bit meh but I can't remember loving characters more than Wesley and Fred for a long time.

I even grew to like Angel! I'm going to spoiler the next load...



Spoiler: S3-4



I'd pretty much heard this about late Angel: "Darla comes back and gets pregnant, and it makes no sense. Angel gets a son who's never explained, who ends up getting into a relationship with Connor. Again, makes no sense. YMMV." so I was not expecting anything good. However, I was pleasantly surprised... should have placed more faith in Joss, really.

Connor didn't annoy me as much as he did to most people, but then I was never all that annoyed with Dawn, so yeah, figures. I thought his ultimate fate was a really nice touch. Cordelia/Connor was... um, yeah, wtf, but at least that was actually explained and it *wasn't* really Cordelia.

Speaking of Cordelia, Angel/Cordelia was as dull as I expected. David and Charisma have no chemistry whatsoever onscreen, it was just overall a mistake, although sweet, I suppose. I actually like Buffy/Angel a whole lot more. But hey, that's just one thing I don't like.

Jasmine was creepy, and pretty awesome, I think. I wanted more focus on the creepiness because I thought that was more interesting than "actually... I just want everyone to be happy, I suppose you're in my way so KIIIILL", but eh.

Oh, and uh... WESLEY. Oh my god. I can't believe I actually thought "whyyyy" when I heard he was going to be a major character, the development he got was just... absolutely amazing. It really makes me happy that he gets universal love like Giles does, because his development really needs to be recognised for the awesomeness that it is. He probably turned out my favourite Buffyverse character, pushing Spike out of the way with ease. :D He completely _made_ S3. Oh, and can I say hot? Stubbly!Wesley makes me literally weak at the knees. <3 Please tell me you agree with me, Harlequin? D:

Fred, too, is amazing. I was a bit 'eh' about her from maybe when she appeared to S4, but I think I still adored her all along, and now I just flat-out love her. I think she's getting the love everyone thinks I should have given to Tara, since they have _sort of_ similar roles, being feminine and the nurturers of the group, but she always had a kind of intelligent badassery that Tara never had. I even used to hate the Texan accent... oh Fred, how you changed me. <3





Spoiler: S5/all



I've just started S5 now, but... I knew Fred's death was coming (oh and I know about Wesley too, ffs) but that didn't make it any easier. Goddamnit Joss, why do you kill off characters when they're finally with the person they love?


----------



## Dannichu

Oh, the 



Spoiler: Angel S5/Buffy S6



death of Fred hurts. So, so much ): The fact it's drawn out is physically painful, but still, I think, less so than Tara's sudden death because at least they had a chance to say goodbye. But Joss really knows how to hurt his audience so, so badly ):
That episode where Fred's parents come along and Illyria pretends to be Fred and Wesley is all ;~; was extremely well-done. Damn you, Joss. 

Am I the only person who thinks that Spike coming along in S5 kind of messed up the group dynamic that the Angel group had?



I still don't like it as much as Buffy, both plot- and character-wise, but I haven't seen all of it, so I can't say stuff with any authority. I do want to watch it all sometime, though.

You know who I don't get? Harmony. I never really liked her, but Joss keeps bringing her into Buffyverse stuff; I've only glanced at the comics, but she's all over that, and I just don't get it. @.@ She's such an exaggerated character, I find it really hard to care about someone so one-dimensional. She's basically an extremely exaggerated Cordelia.


----------



## Minish

Dannichu said:


> Oh, the
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Angel S5/Buffy S6
> 
> 
> 
> death of Fred hurts. So, so much ): The fact it's drawn out is physically painful, but still, I think, less so than Tara's sudden death because at least they had a chance to say goodbye. But Joss really knows how to hurt his audience so, so badly ):
> That episode where Fred's parents come along and Illyria pretends to be Fred and Wesley is all ;~; was extremely well-done. Damn you, Joss.
> 
> Am I the only person who thinks that Spike coming along in S5 kind of messed up the group dynamic that the Angel group had?
> 
> 
> 
> I still don't like it as much as Buffy, both plot- and character-wise, but I haven't seen all of it, so I can't say stuff with any authority. I do want to watch it all sometime, though.
> 
> You know who I don't get? Harmony. I never really liked her, but Joss keeps bringing her into Buffyverse stuff; I've only glanced at the comics, but she's all over that, and I just don't get it. @.@ She's such an exaggerated character, I find it really hard to care about someone so one-dimensional. She's basically an extremely exaggerated Cordelia.





Spoiler: S5 Angel/S6 Buffy



I think it was a lot worse than Tara's, but hey, I never really felt much of a connection with Tara whereas I absolutely fell in love with Fred. I even knew it was going to happen; the exact episode too. What makes it even worse is that in the episode before she and Wesley finally got together at the end and it was the sweetest thing I'd ever seen and just cried buckets.

It didn't help that all the other characters were completely broken too; Angel said something like "I have one thing to say... Winifred Burkle. Go." as they were about to split up and find out what the hell was wrong with her. She wasn't a warrior, she wasn't a fighter, and yet she still had to die.

I love Wesley a tiny bit more than Fred (not saying much; they're pretty much my favourite Buffyverse characters now with Giles following) and yet his death wasn't as bad because of the way it was treated by the other characters. Just that there was a whole _episode_ focusing on Fred's death and it was done so _well_ oh God I'm starting to cry again now. XD;

I actually think Joss just _likes_ killing off characters that aren't ready for it. You said it before; the characters that are brought back are ones that were ready for it. Wesley was brought back as a not-quite-ghost because of his contract with Wolfram & Heart in the Angel comics, but he was ready to die in battle.

Also about Tara; hey, at least she died suddenly and felt little pain. And her soul wasn't completely annihilated like Fred's was, either. ;_; But it's horrible how Wesley/Fred and Willow/Tara were similar in that as soon as they got together or back together in the case of Willow and Tara and everything was adorable and wonderful- BAM. Damn you, Joss...

That episode where Illyria pretends to be Fred for Fred's parents is horribly sad. I knew she was going to do it and yet as soon as she walked through the door my heart seriously stopped because it looked like... like she was back. And Illyria could act like her so well, and then she turned around and was Illyria again to Wesley and it was just horrible. ;-;

And then later when Wesley is dying, and Illyria pretends to be Fred. It was so easy to forget for just a moment that Fred is completely gone.

And then in the Angel comics, apparently Fred's personality is trying to fight against Illyria's and it's _too late_ because Wesley is gone and argh. Sigh.



Hmm... I guess you're somewhat right about Spike messing up the dynamic, but I didn't think it was so bad. Plus, he was familiar with most of the characters already, and all the Angel and Spike interaction was brilliant -- especially in the Rome episode, that was just hilarious. XD I know you said (uh, it might have been Facebook) that it was just a few episodes before the series end, but I actually liked that because it really closed up a lot of Buffyverse questions. Not to mention, Joss seems to like putting cheery episodes right before serious episodes -- Smile Time was the very episode before Hole in the World. :/

I kinda agree about Harmony. I honestly have no idea why she was added into the opening credits near the end of Angel S5 because it felt like she was featured _less_ in those episodes than at the beginning of the series. >_> And yet Lorne had to fight for the entire show to get into the credits! 



Spoiler: S5



Another thing; it was horrible when Lorne left in Not Fade Away, so broken. ;_; I was never a huge fan of him but that just broke me. Uh, again.



Sorry, I can really ramble about Angel at the moment. X3 I don't think I'll ever get over Fred and Wesley. The only thing worse thing Joss could have been done would be if Giles had been brutally murdered or something by evil!Willow in Buffy S6. :/


----------



## Keltena

O-oh god.

So guys, I am waaaaay behind you on Angel (though I finished Buffy over spring break! :D and was that ending ever awesome!), but... I just watched the ninth episode of the first season. I _still_ feel like bawling. Yeah, kill off the most likable, awesome, character with so much potential nine episodes in. DAMMIT, I LIKED HIM. And... it just came out of nowhere, too. I'm assuming something happened with the actor? Because, as nicely as they did manage to handle it (*sob*), it was way abrupt.


----------



## Minish

Salamander said:


> O-oh god.
> 
> So guys, I am waaaaay behind you on Angel (though I finished Buffy over spring break! :D and was that ending ever awesome!), but... I just watched the ninth episode of the first season. I _still_ feel like bawling. Yeah, kill off the most likable, awesome, character with so much potential nine episodes in. DAMMIT, I LIKED HIM. And... it just came out of nowhere, too. I'm assuming something happened with the actor? Because, as nicely as they did manage to handle it (*sob*), it was way abrupt.





Spoiler: S1



Ahh, his death really saddened me too. ;-; You better get used to it; Angel has an even higher main character death rate than Buffy, unfortunately. :| Nothing happened to the actor for his death, it was basically planned from the start just for Cordelia to get the visions. Goddamn you, Joss.

...Glen Quinn (his actor) actually died later after he left the show. ;__;


----------



## Dannichu

Actually, re: spoiler's death-

I heard that he was an alcoholic and clashed quite a bit with the writing cast, so they decided to write him out. Don't quote me on it, but I think Quinn's alcoholism may have contributed to his death, too ):

And Lorne's actor has since died after the end of Angel, too, which is equally sad ;~;

And YES the ending of Buffy is really, really great. I have some prolems with it, and major ones for series 7 in general, but it was a very fitting end to such an epic series <3

Vaguely relevant: my friend (as a late Christmas present) got me two Tara figurines today. I now have four Taras. This makes me stupidly happy XD


----------



## Harlequin

FRED IS SO BAD ASS IN SEASON FOUR IT'S FUCKING AWEEEEEESOME

also david boreanaz is still hot.

[i just started finishing angel because idk stressssssed.]


----------



## Keltena

Christian Kane is hotter. <33333 for Lindsey =D


----------



## Keltena

*brings thread back to life through secret magic of doubleposting*

...*coughs up a snake*

Okay so. So. I was thinking of making Buffy mafia, even though the mafia forum isn't open yet, because I think I could run it and I think it would be fun and stuff and _anyway_. What I was thinking was, you know, I'd put it in the game forum and so anyway are people interested in playing because I cannot form a coherent sentence right now and yeah.

If there's interest, I'll make a sign-up thread. ^^

On the subject of _Angel_: Dear god, S5 is hitting hard. First 



Spoiler: You're Welcome



Cordy


, which we at least knew was coming, but then 



Spoiler: A Hole in the World



Fred


!? Ow, ow, ow, my heart.

Going back a little, since there's so much to talk about... There have been some awesome moments. _Awesome. Angel_ isn't really a "Favorite Episode" show for me so much as a "Favorite Moment/Scene" show.

In fact? Listing a few just for the heck of it.

*Angel:* You and me. This isn't working out.
*Spike:* Are you saying we should start annoying other people?

"Stop it, evil hand, stop it..."



Spoiler: Home



Wesley trying to burn Lilah's perpetuity clause. Am I the only one who teared up?



While on the subject of Wesley and Lilah...

*Lilah:* Don't be thinking about me when I'm gone.
*Wesley:* I wasn't think about you when you were here.

*Lilah: *Mind if I join you?*
Wesley:* Too many ways to count, with great intensity.*

_Every. Single. Moment._ of "Smile Time".

Also, I just feel like announcing that I adore Connor. He's not my favorite character, but he's up there, and I am sad that everyone hates him. (I see why -- he gets a _ton_ of angst and is gullible as hell, but still... In the end, my 'hug Connor' instinct wins out over my 'punch Connor' instinct easily.)

By the way, has anyone else seen this? It's Amy Acker's audition; the same person also has Vincent Kartheiser's uploaded, but that's not nearly as funny.

...yeah, ramblings. Whoo. Get back to me on the mafia thing? c:

*I am so using this line someday.


----------



## Minish

*r-r-r-revival*

Apparently there's another BtVS club now because this one is too dead? WTF no our club is not dead... ;~; I shall make it not so!

I actually kind of like Connor too, Salamander, but... that might be because I went into the show being told he was practically the anti-Christ in terms of crappy annoying characters, and found he wasn't _that_ bad. I feel really sorry for him too. :( And he was so so adorable as a baby. Okay, maybe it was Angel who was mostly adorable while Connor was a baby...

I had a sudden burning desire to rewatch some of the older episodes, so I've been taking a gander at S1 and S2 again lately. Ahh, nostalgia~ I can't believe it's been almost a year since I started watching it... god I loved Sunnydale High. When everyone (like Xander. Especially Xander.) was totally adorable. :'D

Also, I have no idea how to play mafia. However, I might consider learning how if there's going to be a Buffy one. :3


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## Butterfree

Ooh, Buffy mafia! Wait, let me make up a system! (Not trying to overtake yours or anything; I'm just having fun.)

Vampires are the mafia faction; humans are the innocents. The roles are as such:

The Master (mafia don): The head vampire. He has the ultimate authority in deciding who the vampires will kill each night.

Vampire goons (mafia underlings): Random vampires under the Master who do the dirty work.

Angel (alien): He starts out as a human, but if he is attacked by a vampire, he is turned and becomes the vampire Angelus. However, Angelus likes to toy with his victims, so rather than joining the vampires, he waits until they try to kill him before unleashing all his terrifying power and winning the game.

Buffy (vigilante): For the humans' side, she stakes one player every night in the hope that it's a vampire.

Willow and Tara (doctors): They will use vampire-warding spells on one player each every night. However, if they both target the same player, the spells clash and the target dies.

Giles (inspector): He will look up one player in his vampire books every night to find if they're known to be a vampire. He will spot Angelus as a vampire, but not human Angel. Or Spike, because the timeline here is messed-up and Spike somehow already has a soul even when Angel hasn't been turned.

Spike (lover): On the first night, Spike falls desperately in love with some other player of his choosing. He will subsequently become so dependent on them that if they die he commits suicide, and if he dies he will drag them down with him. They can communicate and win if everybody is dead except them.

Xander (innocent): He doesn't do anything, but he has heart.

Naturally, everybody involved in this mafia will be required to roleplay their character. Especially Spike.


...alternately, in a slightly less cracky version, season four Spike could be the terrorist. He's on the vampires' side, but he has a chip in his head, so if he tries to kill someone he suffers excruciating pain and dies with them.


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## Dannichu

This is absolutely _excellent _<3 I especially adore Xander having heart XD

And that series 2-3, 4, and 6-7 Spike could be three completely different roles XDD

I want to rewatch the earlier episodes, too - there's always a "But where's _Tara?_ D:" sensation when I see the Sunnydale High episodes, but they're still fantastic and, while some of the episodes are only just this side of sane (I want to find out who thought Bad Eggs was a good idea so I can laugh at them), there's something about them you just don't get once they go to university.


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## opaltiger

> Get back to me on the mafia thing? c:


I opened the mafia forum _just for you!_ :D


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## Harlequin

RE: Cirrus's Xander comment: yeah he got fat later on so I was like "; ; I miss younger-Xander"


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## Phantom

*laughs* Sorry about creating the other thread... I think I need my eyes checked. 

I've never been big on Angel (series) A few select episodes I watch (most containing Spike and..... wee little puppet men... ) but otherwise it's expensive to buy seasons, and the only time it's on TV is at five in the morning.


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## Harlequin

ZOMG ANGEL IS AWESOME

Seriously, it is. A lot of people felt iffy about it, but it is genuinely amazing and I urge you to watch it! :D


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## PK

Dannichu said:


> This is absolutely _excellent _<3 I especially adore Xander having heart XD
> 
> And that series 2-3, 4, and 6-7 Spike could be three completely different roles XDD
> 
> I want to rewatch the earlier episodes, too - there's always a "But where's _Tara?_ D:" sensation when I see the Sunnydale High episodes, but they're still fantastic and, while some of the episodes are only just this side of sane (I want to find out who thought Bad Eggs was a good idea so I can laugh at them), there's something about them you just don't get once they go to university.


*WHY IS TED A ROBOT*


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## Dannichu

*bump!*

So! They're making a Buffy feature film. And Joss is having no part in it. Joss' reaction. How can anyone not utterly adore this guy?


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## Phantom

Another movie? Insane, I can't read the link now, but I for sure will. (On work compy and it's blocked)


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## shy ♡

Fuuu I love that man. :[ I'm super worried about this movie. I hate getting antsy about movies/things before they actually even get started, let alone are available for watching, so I'm gonna keep myself as calm as possible but hrrg. There is the possibility it won't even be completed. 

Oh well. Here's hoping it's good. :v


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## Phantom

I heard that it will "take Buffy out of high school and into the adult world". Didn't they already do that?


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## Coroxn

I love Amy Acker's screen test. I LOVED Buffy, I wished BtVS and Angel crossed over more. Dawn and Connor....I want to see them together! And it really was nice of Joss to name Connor after me, even if he did spell my name wrong. Strange thing was, when I e-mailed him about it he said he'd never heard of me. That's weird. Why would Joss lie to me? Stranger still, how did he know what I was going to be called years before I was born?


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## Inept At Normal

Oh my god, _Once More With Feeling_. I downloaded the soundtrack, and I just can't stop singing it everywhere - you should have seen the look on my classmates faces when I sang Under Your Spell in History. A bit freaked out were they.

But seriously! Squee!


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## Dannichu

Ahaha, on my computer pre-crash, the OMWF soundtrack was the CD on Media Player with the most plays - by a margin of about _fifty_ XD Best musical episode of anything, ever.


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## Inept At Normal

_Bunnies arent just cute like everybody supposes,
They got them hoppy legs and twitchy little noses,
And whats with all the carrots?
What do they need such good eyesight for anyway?
Bunnies, Bunnies, it must be bunnies!
... Or maybe midgets?_


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