# pokémon, characteristics of life, biology



## 1. Luftballon (Sep 14, 2010)

*pokémon, characteristics of life, biology*



RespectTheBlade said:


> actually, that's too high of a chance.
> 
> Also, on the subject of pokemon being alive:
> 
> ...





sreservoir said:


> actually response to environment, use of energy, and evolution and adaption are fairly questionable, too.





RespectTheBlade said:


> so, what does Evolution count as? as in pokemon Evolution? is changing to a new form not considered "adapting to your environment", no matter how rapid it occurs? and pokemon do respond to their environment. If there were a fire in a largefield, wouldn't all the pokemon run away? if there was a new food supply, such as a berry orchard, wouldn't pokemon go over and eat the berries?. As far of use of energy, aside from using attacks, I think you have a point.





sreservoir said:


> when have you seen any pokemon actually run from a fire?
> 
> and evolution is just growth, not adaption.





RespectTheBlade said:


> I believe it was in an episode of the anime. Or a movie. But if you want a better example, all of the inhabitants of that one forest in the movie _Jirachi: Wishmaker_ ran from the giant fake groudon thing. I count that as external stimuli.





sreservoir said:


> :| anime has plenty of stuff that makes it an unreliable source for pokebiology.





RespectTheBlade said:


> Well, I would think that a species as advanced as pokemon would run from a fire, especially if they were grass type. I mean, pokemon do not just sit around stationary and wait for someone to catch them.





Sandstone-Shadow said:


> "Responding to the environment" could also be running from a trainer trying to catch it, or responding to another Pokémon attacking it. A wild Pokémon will fight without orders from a trainer, so it still must be able to respond to the environment on its own.
> 
> As far as evolution goes... do Pokémon actually grow? We've always been told that they grow by evolving, but is this actually growing by biology's standards? Do they have cells that function as a living thing's and divide as the Pokémon grows?
> 
> And I remembered something - Mewtwo was supposedly created from Mew's DNA. Logical assumption that, then, Pokémon have DNA?





sreservoir said:


> eh, I guess.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Superbird said:


> Ditto has cells.


relevant posts, a bit generously defined.


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## Wargle (Sep 14, 2010)

*Re: pokémon, characteristics of life, biology*

Pokémon Evoloution could also be seen as metamorphasis.

but:

Growlithe

Outside Stimuli: Fire Stone

Result: an evolution

could go either way imo.


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## Pwnemon (Sep 14, 2010)

*Re: pokémon, characteristics of life, biology*

All the things of life:

They eat and give waste (Only in anime but effing games you don't even eat and we know humans are alive).

They maintain homeostasis (There've been many Pokedex entries on such sort of thing)

They reproduce

They react to stimuli


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## RespectTheBlade (Sep 14, 2010)

*Re: pokémon, characteristics of life, biology*

Good idea to make this another thread. 

Well, to start I count evolution (pokemon) as an evolution(theory), especially in transformations such as Magikarp to Gyarados, Febass to Milotic, Kabuto to Kabutops, etc. And certain evolutions, such as Scyther to Scizor and Onix to Steelix, could count more as an adaptation then an evolution.


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## 1. Luftballon (Sep 14, 2010)

*Re: pokémon, characteristics of life, biology*

...evolution _doesn't work that way_.


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## [O] (Sep 14, 2010)

*Re: pokémon, characteristics of life, biology*



sreservoir said:


> ...evolution _doesn't work that way_.


I think that in terms of Pokemon, what we refer to as evolution is more of metamorphosis, i.e. caterpillars metamorphosing (sp?) into butterflies.



Pwnemon said:


> All the things of life:
> 
> They eat and give waste (Only in anime but effing games you don't even eat and we know humans are alive).
> 
> ...


IMHO Pokemon are obviously alive not only because of these four criteria, but just intuitively they are obviously living creatures.



RespectTheBlade said:


> And certain evolutions, such as Scyther to Scizor and Onix to Steelix, could count more as an adaptation then an evolution.


Similar to how Darwin's finches adapted to their environment so that they could survive.



For a Pokemon such as Burmy or Cherrim, I guess it would be adapting to the environment much like how a hermit crab quickly finds new, er, house (for lack of a better term), to suit its body once it outgrows the first one.


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## 1. Luftballon (Sep 14, 2010)

*Re: pokémon, characteristics of life, biology*



[O] said:


> I think that in terms of Pokemon, what we refer to as evolution is more of metamorphosis, i.e. caterpillars metamorphosing (sp?) into butterflies.


well, yes, that's kind of the point.



> IMHO Pokemon are obviously alive not only because of these four criteria, but just intuitively they are obviously living creatures.


not only are there more criteria, eat and give waste isn't exactly a criteria (plants don't really eat per se), and _the point is not whether they *seem* alive, because we already know that!_



> Similar to how Darwin's finches adapted to their environment so that they could survive.


mm, I'd think that these are more reactions to stimuli, because they're not inherited.

(incidentally, _that's not how it works~_)



> For a Pokemon such as Burmy or Cherrim, I guess it would be adapting to the environment much like how a hermit crab quickly finds new, er, house (for lack of a better term), to suit its body once it outgrows the first one.


that is... not the relevant definition of adaptation in definitions of life.


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## Pwnemon (Sep 14, 2010)

*Re: pokémon, characteristics of life, biology*

Actually, the technical thing is to take in energy and give waste, but whatever. TRUST ME IM TAKING BIOLOGY AS WE SPEAK WE COVERED THIS LAST WEEK.


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## 1. Luftballon (Sep 14, 2010)

*Re: pokémon, characteristics of life, biology*

yeah, uh, if it's standard eighth grade bio, they gloss over _lots and lots of stuff_ and I had a teacher who pointed that out and he _still_ had to gloss over lots of stuff.


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## Sandstone-Shadow (Sep 14, 2010)

*Re: pokémon, characteristics of life, biology*



Brock said:


> Pokémon Evoloution could also be seen as metamorphasis.
> 
> but:
> 
> ...


This is kind of a good point, too. Growlithe (and others that only evolve by an evolutionary stone, etc.) don't "grow" on their own, which I don't believe meets the definition. 



			
				sreservoir said:
			
		

> vulpix is confirmed to grow, as are a few of the snakes and probably plenty of other stuff.


True.


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## Adriane (Sep 14, 2010)

*Re: pokémon, characteristics of life, biology*



Pwnemon said:


> They eat and give waste (Only in anime but effing games you don't even eat and we know humans are alive).


They do that in the games, too :?


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## opaltiger (Sep 14, 2010)

*Re: pokémon, characteristics of life, biology*

Are you seriously questioning response to stimuli? If Pokemon didn't respond to stimuli, they would _do absolutely nothing._ In fact, this might sound like a tautology, but if Pokemon weren't alive they'd _be dead._ I have no idea why you're even having this discussion. In fact here:

1. Organisation: made of cells, check.
2. Homeostasis: without it they'd be dead, check.
3. Metabolism: do Pokemon eat? yes. do they use energy? yes. do they excrete waste? yes. Check!
4. Growth: before evolution: smaller. After evolution: bigger. (usually).  check!
5. Response to stimuli: do wild Pokemon stand around doing nothing? no. check!
6. Adaptation: inevitable due to heredity, which is self-apparent from breeding. check!
7. Reproduction: _what do you think eggs are._ check!

wow that was hard


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## Skylark (Sep 14, 2010)

*Re: pokémon, characteristics of life, biology*

I have no disagreement with pokemon being alive but it doesn't make sense to me how a skitty and a wailord can breed. Entirely different species can breed - therefore they are not seperate species anymore since the offspring can still reproduce. How does that make any sense? O.O


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## Adriane (Sep 14, 2010)

*Re: pokémon, characteristics of life, biology*



Skylark said:


> I have no disagreement with pokemon being alive but it doesn't make sense to me how a skitty and a wailord can breed. Entirely different species can breed - therefore they are not seperate species anymore since the offspring can still reproduce. How does that make any sense? O.O


Okay, so they bent the rules on what can fuck what, but I mean it would be relatively pointless if only the same species could breed with each other. Additionally, there are *some* real-life animal species that can breed with each other and produce offspring (in some cases, even the offspring are fertile)

What I don't understand is how you can say two distinct species aren't different species anymore because they can have a baby...?


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## Music Dragon (Sep 14, 2010)

*Re: pokémon, characteristics of life, biology*



Vixie said:


> What I don't understand is how you can say two distinct species aren't different species anymore because they can have a baby...?


Because he's assuming that offspring is fertile when, and only when, the parents belong to the same species.


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## Pwnemon (Sep 14, 2010)

*Re: pokémon, characteristics of life, biology*

Furthermore, they display heredity. A pokemon will always inherit from one to three of it's parents' IVs.


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## 1. Luftballon (Sep 14, 2010)

*Re: pokémon, characteristics of life, biology*

wait, they do? cite, please?


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## Pwnemon (Sep 14, 2010)

*Re: pokémon, characteristics of life, biology*

Somebody said so. I trusted them but Bulbapedia says nothing of the sort D:.


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## Adriane (Sep 14, 2010)

*Re: pokémon, characteristics of life, biology*

Well, IVs _are_ passed down in some fashion--hence the phrase "breeding for IVs", I just don't exactly know how. 

On topic, I don't see how it's a debate. They are born from eggs after a male and female mate, they eventually die. They eat/shit and sleep. They can get sick. They have minds of their own and generally exhibit very animalistic behaviours and have animal features. Of course there are some "up in the air" Pokémon, like Voltorb, but generally speaking...


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## Butterfree (Sep 14, 2010)

*Re: pokémon, characteristics of life, biology*

Yes, Pokémon do inherit IVs from their parents. What the hell. Haven't you ever heard of IV breeding? The precise mechanics have been tweaked between generations; I think in HG/SS it boils down to basically "generate IVs randomly; then pick three stats at random, overwriting each with a random parent's IV in that stat."



> :| anime has plenty of stuff that makes it an unreliable source for pokebiology.


....what? Where the heck else are you going to get your information? Video games are unreliable sources about biology _by their very nature_; taking your information about the real world from video games would result in a skewed idea of it, to say the least. If you see Pokémon running from fires in the anime and not in the video games, it's pretty damn obvious which one is actually portraying the creators' idea of what Pokémon would do in that situation if they were real.

Otherwise, echo opal's post. This discussion is completely ridiculous.


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## 1. Luftballon (Sep 14, 2010)

*Re: pokémon, characteristics of life, biology*

this thread: I should not do things just before going to bed.

iv breeding: had a braindead moment there.

biology: I think I had an objection to homeostasis and adaptation, but I can't remember the details and now it sounds silly.

(please silently ignore this.)


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## Butterfree (Sep 14, 2010)

*Re: pokémon, characteristics of life, biology*

Well, adaptation is the most questionable one since we don't directly know anything about Pokémon genetics and theoretically they could all be created creatures whose genomes don't mutate or who only inherit a few very specific genes that are not a major factor in determining their appearance, but a few Pokémon have still been shown or stated to have _adapted_, in a Darwinian sense, to specific environments (Shellos, some anime examples I can't name). Furthermore, this would not contest whether they are "alive", but merely whether the characteristics of life as we know them need modification when applied to the Pokémon world.


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## Superbird (Sep 15, 2010)

*Re: pokémon, characteristics of life, biology*

I've got a good one for Adaption. Gastrodon? Its body changes based on where it lives, although they're both the same pokémon at heart? And Shikijika (the little deer), whose color changes based on the season. If that's not adapting to the environment, then what is?


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## Skylark (Sep 18, 2010)

*Re: pokémon, characteristics of life, biology*



Vixie said:


> Okay, so they bent the rules on what can fuck what, but I mean it would be relatively pointless if only the same species could breed with each other. Additionally, there are *some* real-life animal species that can breed with each other and produce offspring (in some cases, even the offspring are fertile)
> 
> What I don't understand is how you can say two distinct species aren't different species anymore because they can have a baby...?


By definition of species. Tell me if I'm wrong, but I remember a species defined as being able to produce fertile offspring with members of its own species only. For example, lions and tigers can produce ligers, but ligers can't breed, so lions and tigers aren't of the same species


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## hopeandjoy (Sep 18, 2010)

*Re: pokémon, characteristics of life, biology*

Maybe all Pokémon are the same species, and each different kind is a different breed adapted to a different niche.


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## Skylark (Sep 18, 2010)

*Re: pokémon, characteristics of life, biology*



Ketsu said:


> Maybe all Pokémon are the same species, and each different kind is a different breed adapted to a different niche.


That would explain skitty being able to breed with wailord, but wouldn't explain legendaries, genderless pokemon, why ditto can breed with almost all pokemn and pokemon who are in different egg groups (ex. buizel can't breed with turtwig)


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## hopeandjoy (Sep 18, 2010)

*Re: pokémon, characteristics of life, biology*

Some Pokémon are too above it, some are, you know, genderless, Ditto is just a mass of stem cells, and some Pokémon are more removed than others.


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## Adriane (Sep 18, 2010)

*Re: pokémon, characteristics of life, biology*



Skylark said:


> By definition of species. Tell me if I'm wrong, but I remember a species defined as being able to produce fertile offspring with members of its own species only. For example, lions and tigers can produce ligers, but ligers can't breed, so lions and tigers aren't of the same species


... of course they're not the same species. Nobody's claiming they are. Also, some ligers/tigons _are_ fertile, actually.


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## Butterfree (Sep 18, 2010)

*Re: pokémon, characteristics of life, biology*

Egg groups would simply be groups of similarity within which the Pokémon can have offspring.

But either way you can't really discuss Pokémon interbreeding as analogous to lion/tiger interbreeding, because they clearly work by very different principles: the resulting offspring is not a hybrid of the two, but a full member of the female's species. Their genetics clearly work very differently from ours and definitions humans have made to explain life on Earth, such as "a species is a group of individuals that can have fertile offspring with one another", are not necessarily going to be useful or informative in the Pokémon world.

If you're going to say "But the offspring being of the female's species is just a game mechanic", well, so is the entire interbreeding feature; if you _really_ want to view Pokémon genetics as analogous to ours, you might as well just consider them to truly be different species and assume that Skitty can only breed with Wailord in video games.


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## Enkoe (Sep 18, 2010)

*Re: pokémon, characteristics of life, biology*

Skitty can breed with Wailord?

How in the world is this _even possible_?! Kittens breeding with whales?!


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## Green (Sep 18, 2010)

*Re: pokémon, characteristics of life, biology*

It's kind of a meme? There are even squiby adoptables of it, one of which I made :B


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## Missile (Sep 18, 2010)

*Re: pokémon, characteristics of life, biology*

It's true, y'know.


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## Green (Sep 18, 2010)

*Re: pokémon, characteristics of life, biology*

Tail goes into blowhole.


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## Enkoe (Sep 18, 2010)

*Re: pokémon, characteristics of life, biology*



St. Christopher said:


> Tail goes into blowhole.


**** YOU

I will never look at Wailord in the same way AGAIN. Or Skitty. Thank you for ruining it.


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## Green (Sep 18, 2010)

*Re: pokémon, characteristics of life, biology*

Anytime!


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## Enkoe (Sep 19, 2010)

*Re: pokémon, characteristics of life, biology*



St. Christopher said:


> Anytime!


Ever heard of sarcasm? :P


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## Autumn (Sep 19, 2010)

*Re: pokémon, characteristics of life, biology*



Enkoe said:


> Ever heard of sarcasm? :P


ever heard of playing along with sarcasm


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