# Browser Wars, Part I (aka Browser Discussion)



## Falthor

Post and discuss what browser you use and why.  I guess that's all I really needed to post.  Feel free to debate which is the king of all browsers.

EDITED because it makes me sound like a brown-nosing idiot.  ><


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## Flora

I use IE cause that's all I have on here.

Plus the parents don't like us downloading stuff.


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## Falthor

The poll has been added.

I use Safari.  I used to use Firefox, Opera, and IE.


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## Furretsu

I use Firefox, but I don't care what other people use as long as it's not that abomination they call Internet Explorer.

People should stop interpreting "Stop using IE!" as "Use Firefox!" All the other alternatives are great, too; I just use Firefox because I like it most.


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## Kratos Aurion

AuroraKing said:


> I use Firefox, but I don't care what other people use as long as it's not that abomination they call Internet Explorer.
> 
> People should stop interpreting "Stop using IE!" as "Use Firefox!" All the other alternatives are great, too; I just use Firefox because I like it most.


qft

I'll dash into IE to test a few things for barebones basic browser compatibility--and I have to say IE8 actually isn't the worst piece of crap in the world anymore--but other than that I generally avoid it.

But yeah, using Fx3 and loving it; I just wish more of the old skins/extensions worked with it. I miss my Foxkeh skin ;_;


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## Furretsu

I'm still using Fx2 until it becomes more extension-compatible; I rely on them far too heavily. >_<;;


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## surskitty

Falthor said:


> *WARNING:* Even though I am not a moderator, I do not tolerate flaming.  Discuss browsers in a normal, human fashion, discussing it _maturely_ and without _any_ *immature* argument.  I repeat, *NO FLAMING*.
> 
> Moderators, at your discretion, or at least before flaming, which I told them in the beginning not to do, begins to occur, feel free to close this.  Close it if you feel it is necessary, in a nutshell.  _Grazie_.


[headdesk]


I use Firefox and don't give a damn about IE support.  I just wish people'd stop using it.


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## Falthor

surskitty said:


> [headdesk]
> 
> 
> I use Firefox and don't give a damn about IE support.  I just wish people'd stop using it.


If what I said did not please you, by all means, get rid of it.  If I was too moronic to mention something like that, please let me know.

I've got to hand it to Mozilla.  They've got some of the greatest elements of a browser.  I'm not complaining about Safari at all; it, too, is pretty good, but _anything_, in my opinion, is better than Inept Explod––er, I mean, Microsoft Internet Explorer.


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## Zora of Termina

I only use Internet Exploder if I absolutely HAVE to. AKA at school or on the upstairs computer until I convince Mom to let me download Firefox up there like I have in the basement. But most of the time I use Firefox cause it's awesome.

Although the at-school aspect may change soon. I wrote a 5-page essay on why they should stop using IE and download a different browser, and I managed to get my teachers to switch. Now I just gotta convince MIS to stop using it, and that should be easy. :P


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## Icalasari

Firefox, and occasionally IE due to a few things:

1) Allows me to be logged onto two accounts at the same time. Don't worry, it isn't here!

2) Most of the family seems to be worried about Firefox. I have tried getting them to switch, but apparently IE is easier to use than any other browser!

...You know, maybe I should check to make sure the Carbon Monoxide Detector is working...


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## The Quicker Picker-Upper

I myself like unrounded bare-bones programs, so IE 6.0 has always been my personal favorite. I've used other browsers, and I just don't like them. I've used Firefox, I've used Netscape, I've used Mozilla, I've even tried out IE 8.0...I still like the old IE. 

I'm not going to change my mind any time soon, so don't try arguing. In fact, to avoid a heart attack, I'm probably not going to respond if you try.


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## Noctowl

I use opera because firefox froze all the time. =<


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## ultraviolet

I use Firefox because I like it more than IE, and when I downloaded Safari it didn't work. I haven't tried Opera, but I've heard it's good. 

Also, 'Firefox' sounds sexier than 'Internet Explorer'. Hands down.


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## Tailsy

Firefox. I'm not allowed with the cool kids if I don't.


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## Murkrow

I use Firefox.

I'd uninstall IE but why did Microsoft have to make it built into Vista?
For some reason I like IE 6 better than IE 7 probably because it didn't crash as much.


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## EvilCrazyMonkey

I either use Fx or Safari at home, but anywhere else the computer doesn't have it installed. Well, except my grandparents have Fx for some reason; they don't use it, but I take advantage of it. I just am waiting for Fx3 to keep the skin I'm using right now. At school, all they have is Internet Explorer. Not that I mind, but it's version *5*. So, I've loaded a copy of Opera onto my flash drive to use at school.


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## opaltiger

The Quicker Picker-Upper said:


> I myself like unrounded bare-bones programs, so IE 6.0 has always been my personal favorite. I've used other browsers, and I just don't like them. I've used Firefox, I've used Netscape, I've used Mozilla, I've even tried out IE 8.0...I still like the old IE.
> 
> I'm not going to change my mind any time soon, so don't try arguing. In fact, to avoid a heart attack, I'm probably not going to respond if you try.


obligatory post to point out that Fx can be made to use the exact same skin as IE.

also most extensions are working with Fx3 now guys and if they don't you can just force compatibility.


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## Sireafi

I uh, use FireFox the most, just because it makes my life easier. I also use Opera to get through the no-right click script and I don't want to disable Javascript on FireFox, and then I use Safari on my iMac.


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## Altmer

I use IE because it browses...?


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## Kaito

Firefox; I don't really care _what_ people use, I use Firefox because it's got a nice layout, and I despise IE.


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## Zhorken

I only actually _use_ Firefox, though I _have_ used IE, Firefox, Safari, Opera, Konqueror, Lynx (which is fucking _weird_), iCab, and possibly some other obscure ones I'm forgetting. EDIT: Oh right, Netscape, but it's gone.

I wish people would stop working around IE so that people couldn't say things such as 





> it browses...?


Also I hate this thread's title even if it _is_ descriptive of the thread.


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## Altmer

That's pretty much the function of a browser for me, and IE lets me browse what I want, so I don't really care much. I've used Firefox and it has some neat extensions, but I don't really use them anyway.


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## surskitty

IE lets you browse things as long as the webmaster decided to spend extra time getting it to work properly for you but it's kind of silly to willingly use it because, y'know, _wasting time getting it to work properly for you_.


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## nyuu

Sireafi said:


> I uh, use FireFox the most, just because it makes my life easier. I also use Opera to get through the no-right click script and I don't want to disable Javascript on FireFox, and then I use Safari on my iMac.


firefox noscript extension? allows you to disable specific scripts (actually it disables them all by default and you enable what you need) 

I use Firefox 3.


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## Eevee

Firefox because it comes with my OS?  8)  Also because I'm a hippie faggot who likes open-source everything.

Also IE makes my life harder in a very direct way.  I have wasted countless hours, both at work and not, trying to track down some obscure undocumented bug in IE.  Firefox and Safari meanwhile both have public bug trackers and vibrant communities; tracking down bugs is usually trivial.  And I'm the _expert_ on IE problems at work.



Icalasari said:


> 1) Allows me to be logged onto two accounts at the same time. Don't worry, it isn't here!


Give this a shot: http://www.nektra.com/oss/firefox/extensions/cookiepie/



Icalasari said:


> 2) Most of the family seems to be worried about Firefox. I have tried getting them to switch, but apparently IE is easier to use than any other browser!


http://johnhaller.com/jh/mozilla/firefox_internet_explorer/

May require tweaking for Firefox 3.



The Quicker Picker-Upper said:


> I myself like unrounded bare-bones programs, so IE 6.0 has always been my personal favorite.


What is not bare-bones about Firefox?  Just don't go looking for extras and you won't find them.  That goes for Opera too, and doubly so for Safari.

Granted I don't know why you _wouldn't_ want extras; a few minutes of figuring things out can make your life a lot easier.



The Quicker Picker-Upper said:


> I'm not going to change my mind any time soon, so don't try arguing. In fact, to avoid a heart attack, I'm probably not going to respond if you try.


Wow, great.  "Here is what I think but don't try to talk about it because I won't answer  >:((("

IE _makes my life difficult_.  I will not stop arguing about it, ever.

You may want to reconsider for more practical reasons, too: http://robert.accettura.com/blog/2008/07/03/killing-ie-6/



Altmer said:


> I use IE because it browses...?


Not very well.  Also see above link.


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## Dannichu

IE. I hate computers and can do everything I want to with it, so I can't be bothered to change it. I go on about ten different sites and they all seem to work okay, so I'm not fussed.


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## opaltiger

Firefox. I've also got Opera installed so it, too, I guess.


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## Storm Earth and Fire

Firefox wins because the logo can be used to make cuteness like this.

In all seriousness, I use Firefox because it has yet to give me trouble. And it starts up much quicker than IE. If I had found out about Opera first, chances are, I'd be using that instead.


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## EvilCrazyMonkey

I love random anti-IE crap. Oh that cracks me up so much.

At least Firefox is installed at my grandparents' house; I would die if it wasn't.
I think I'm gonna try Fx3 now.


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## Eevee

Dannichu said:


> IE. I hate computers and can do everything I want to with it, so I can't be bothered to change it. I go on about ten different sites and they all seem to work okay, so I'm not fussed.


How do you even know what "everything you want to do" is, if you've only ever used IE?  :V  Christ, use Firefox 3's address bar for a week and you will be amazed.


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## Dannichu

Because all I use the computer for is fanfiction, forums, DA, emails and occasionally youtube. That's _really_ all I need.


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## surskitty

Fx3 saves an amazing amount of time when trying to switch between websites.  _Tagging bookmarks_.  I type in any three consecutive letters of whatever I want and it usually has it as the first suggestion!  if it's not the first one, then it'll be the first one next time


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## Hawkfish

I use both Opera and Firefox. I have not used IE in I don't know how long.


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## Murkrow

Although I hate IE (and MS in general), I see no point in trying to get people to convert from IE to something else.

IE works, it browses, saves history and bookmarks.

If that's all people want from a browser then who are other people to say they _have_ do those things better and faster.


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## ZimD

I use IE because I always have and see no reason to change. I don't care if it's the worst, so don't tell me not to use it or why it is, because it won't change my mind at all. I might download Firefox at some other point if I feel the need, but I don't, so I'll just stick with IE. If I ever switch, it'll be because I want to.


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## Ruby

Murkrow said:


> Although I hate IE (and MS in general), I see no point in trying to get people to convert from IE to something else.


Because



Iibui said:


> IE makes my life harder in a very direct way.


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## Murkrow

How does it make it harder though?
It's slower and crashes more...

But for people who don't actually go on the internet that often, or don't care about speed etc. what's the big difference?

Also you can only tell that it's making everything harder if you switch to firefox for a while. The people who haven't can't tell the difference, and how is using IE affecting you in any way?


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## surskitty

BECAUSE HE HAS TO SPEND EXTRA TIME GETTING HIS SITE TO WORK PROPERLY BECAUSE YOU'RE TOO STUBBORN TO SWITCH, THAT'S WHY


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## Furretsu

surskitty said:


> BECAUSE HE HAS TO SPEND EXTRA TIME GETTING HIS SITE TO WORK PROPERLY BECAUSE YOU'RE TOO STUBBORN TO SWITCH, THAT'S WHY


This.

And before you go saying that it's his fault it didn't work well in IE, _his code was perfectly valid_. It's just that your pathetic excuse for a browser decides it doesn't feel like following any sort of standards, so webmasters are stuck dedicating hours that could be spent doing something more constructive if people weren't so fucking stubborn.

Thousands (millions? I don't know; estimation) of GB on the internet alone is likely spent on complex hacks and workarounds just so your little piece-of-shit "browser" doesn't commit ocular rape the second it tries to parse something coherent. Congratulations, IE users. You are _slowing the internet down_.

... I'm sorry about that. I'm awfully bitter about the subject. >_<;


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## Ruby

Or, to put it more tentatively, Internet Explorer is bad for people who don't use it.


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## Murkrow

and?
that's their problem,
who says they even go on sites that aren't compatible with IE
It isn't affecting the people who want them to switch, hey, if he has to do extra work, then he just shouldn't make it compatible for IE, that'll make _some_ people switch and it's less work.

I hate IE as much as the next guy. All I'm saying it that I find it pointless to go around telling people to switch when they have free choice.

EDIT:
I'm going to pretend I understand how it's bad for people who don't use it. I mean more coding? Just don't code it.


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## Furretsu

Ruby said:


> Or, to put it more tentatively, Internet Explorer is bad for people who don't use it.


Regardless of if you use it or not, if you're a webmaster that wants code to a) follow the standards and b) working in IE, you're in for a rough time.


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## opaltiger

> 'm going to pretend I understand how it's bad for people who don't use it.


How much simpler can it get: webmasters have to spend hours making their sites work in IE - the same sites that you use.


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## Murkrow

Okay, but I still think it's stupid to force people to stop using it.

Also I only didn't understand because I forgot what GB stood for for a second. I'm dumb like that.


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## Wymsy

I use Firefox 3. I like a good chunk of the Add-ons and such. Firefox has given me less problems than IE has.


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## Ruby

Murkrow said:


> Okay, but I still think it's stupid to force people to stop using it.


Internet Explorer is the most widely used browser; if a webmaster does not cater to Internet Explorer his website is likely to be less successful.  Users of Internet Explorer force aspirational webmasters to spend time writing bloated websites.  Why is it pointless and stupid to persuade people to do something that is in everyone's interest?


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## Murkrow

I'm not saying it's a bad idea to tell them _why_ they shouldn't use it. I just find it so annoying when people flame you/look like they're flaming you for using a browser or refusing to use their preferred browser, because sometimes to me it looks like people are saying 'use Firefox or be hated/an idiot/etc.

I understand what you're saying about too much coding and I agree, but once it's done it's done. Unless you change something big it's not going to be that much of a problem.
People who don't use the internet that often don't care, and those who do probably go on the same sites all of the time. If they go back to the same site then it obviously has IE support already so where's the problem?

I'm going to stop posting now. It's pretty late where I am. 

All I'm saying is that people have a choice, although I agree that IE _is_ terrible, people can use it if they want.


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## Storm Earth and Fire

Anyone else here use Adblock Plus? I am convinced this extension alone makes Firefox worth it for people who want/need more out of their web browing...


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## Alaphlosiam

I use IE and Firefox. IE runs Java and other applications, because I didn't (can't) install Firefox properly to run those, and Firefox for everything else, such as browsing here, because it loads nearly twice as fast.


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## Arylett Charnoa

Dannichu said:


> IE. I hate computers and can do everything I want to with it, so I can't be bothered to change it. I go on about ten different sites and they all seem to work okay, so I'm not fussed.


What she said. Most of the time, I use something called AOL Explorer, which is basically almost exactly like IE, with some minor differences.


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## Eevee

Arylett Dawnsborough said:


> What she said. Most of the time, I use something called AOL Explorer, which is basically almost exactly like IE, with some minor differences.


wow that is even worse good lord

have you people even _tried_ anything else or is this just microsoft syndrome

and why do you not at all care that the proliferation of IE-based browsers makes life harder on _everyone who builds things for the Web_?  so much time and effort and money lost.


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## Deretto

I use firefox 3. The new address bar was weird at first, but I love it now.


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## Ruby

Murkrow said:


> I just find it so annoying when people flame you/look like they're flaming you for using a browser or refusing to use their preferred browser, because sometimes to me it looks like people are saying 'use Firefox or be hated/an idiot/etc.


I agree that people shouldn't be flamed because of their browser.


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## Adriane

I don't honestly care what you use (though chances are I'll have a slightly higher opinion if you use an open-source/standards-compliant browsers!). But as a webmaster, it particularly irks me when I have to cater to IE users when perfectly standard code _screws up on their screen_. 

No webmaster would _really _go through the trouble, if, you know, 80% of the internet population _didn't use IE.

_EDIT: Uh, yeah, stuff I use. I love Fx3. Problem being it's a memory hog and since I'm stuck with Vista on here (retarded Vista-exc. drivers :\), it can create occasional problems when I'm swapping windows with some other big thing like FFXI. I also love Opera, Seamonkey (which is also Mozilla), and K-Meleon (which also uses the Gecko rendering engine)


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## Minish

I use Firefox, but I'm a _little_ bit regretting downloading Firefox 3. For some reason it seems to make my computer slower. >> But I reckon it can't have anything to do with it, so I'll just stick it out. xD

EDIT: I remember using AOL. The first browser we had.
...
trying to block out the memories.


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## OrangeAipom

Arylett Dawnsborough said:


> What she said. Most of the time, I use something called AOL Explorer, which is basically almost exactly like IE, with some minor differences.


You voted Other. :3

Boy, you are a liar.


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## Not Meowth

Firefox.

No idea why, I see very little difference from Internet Explorer, but maybe it's my fox-lovingness.


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## Arylett Charnoa

ArtificialFlavour said:


> You voted Other. :3
> 
> Boy, you are a liar.


Because technically, AOL Explorer is another browser. If you were looking, you would also see that I voted IE. I thought it made sense, since it is another browser based on IE, so I voted both.


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## XS-Nitrogen

Primarily I use Opera. I find it to be a lot faster than pretty much everything else I've tried. I've got Firefox for a backup browser for when something doesn't work properly in Opera, or on the rare occasion I want to use a Firefox-exclusive plugin/script or something. My laptop runs whatever version of *nix I feel like playing with at the time (Linux, BSD, Solaris 10). For internet browsing I usually use Firefox, but Konquerer gets its share of use for browsing my hard drive (Think My Computer/Windows Explorer), and occasionally for the internet when I already have it open.


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## Timmy

I use Firefox because it loads quicker than the other three browsers that I have installed on my computer.

IE takes five minutes to start up for me, it lags and right-click takes ages to work.. it's just impractical for me. I don't know if it's just my computer or what. I only use it to read my e-mail because MSN opens Hotmail in that browser and idk how to change that.

Opera is there incase Firefox dies on me, and I have Safari because I wanted to see what it was like. :B


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## #1 bro

I almost exclusively use Firefox. Well, no, actually, I occasionally use Safari because it has a "private browsing" feature that I don't believe Firefox has. In private browsing, anything you do when you're using it is not recorded in the history. So that can be helpful. I also have Opera on my machine, but I never use it.


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## Eevee

XS-Nitrogen said:


> Primarily I use Opera. I find it to be a lot faster than pretty much everything else I've tried. I've got Firefox for a backup browser for when something doesn't work properly in Opera, or on the rare occasion I want to use a Firefox-exclusive plugin/script or something. My laptop runs whatever version of *nix I feel like playing with at the time (Linux, BSD, Solaris 10).


You run Opera on *nix?  :gonk:  Doesn't its complete snubbing of anything approaching native theming drive you crazy?


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## Koori Renchuu

I'm a recent convert to Firefox, and I LOVE it.  Saved sessions is awesome!


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## Crazy Linoone

Zeta Reticuli said:


> I almost exclusively use Firefox. Well, no, actually, I occasionally use Safari because it has a "private browsing" feature that I don't believe Firefox has. In private browsing, anything you do when you're using it is not recorded in the history. So that can be helpful. I also have Opera on my machine, but I never use it.


Add-ons, anyone?

Firefox ftw. Mainly because IE takes forever to start up, and Mouse Gestures is addicting. And Adblock makes reading fanfictions easy.


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## Shiny Grimer

Opera, because of Widgets, prettier interface, and because I can't stand Firefox and its address bar.
I used to use this thing called Avant Browser because it had tabs. I have no idea where that went.
Before that, Internet Explorer 6. Lack of tabs meant I had like 50 windows open at the same time. The best thing about this was the little search thing which I _loved_.
<3

Does anyone know where I can download Internet Explorer 6? I need it to test my site's compatability stuff. It works in Opera, Fx3, and IE7, so now I need to know for IE6. Which is amazingly still used.


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## opaltiger

Just use IETab; iirc it still displays for IE6 (right?).



> and because I can't stand Firefox and its address bar.


its address bar? o.o



> The best thing about this was the little search thing which I loved.


if you're talking about a search toolbar, practically every browser has one now. not that you need one with search keywords 8)


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## nyuu

... said:


> I can't stand Firefox and its address bar.


The Fx address bar has been customizable for a very long time. You can move or drop the bits that bother you if you must, and yeah opal, last I checked IETabs are IE6 tabs.


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## Eevee

I imagine IEtab uses whatever IE rendering engine you have installed.

You want this: http://tredosoft.com/Multiple_IE


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## Empoleon

I have IE6, IE7, Opera, Firefox 2, Firefox 3. I want to download Sea Monkey (based on Gecko shell like Fx) but my parents won't let me.


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## Shiny Grimer

opaltiger said:


> its address bar? o.o
> 
> *I don't know how to describe - for example, if I type in 'Serebii', it lists Serebii and then there's forum posts in which I happened to mention serebii. It's similar to the most recent version of Opera's address bar (which I also hate). I hate it because I don't want keywords to show up in the address bar (I also think that zebra striping makes it look ugly.)*
> 
> if you're talking about a search toolbar, practically every browser has one now. not that you need one with search keywords 8)
> 
> *IE6 had this cute little thing that opened up at the side which displayed Google and then once you looked something up, it showed you the links and when you clicked them, they opened in the main page. Sort of like frames. I dunno, it's nostalgic.*


D:
Apparently there's some stupid complication with running IE6 with Vista. I started to get hopeful with the Virtual PC thing because my dad once mentioned a Virtual PC but apparently that doesn't work with Vista either. I'm going to have to wait for a solution apparently. :[


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## Eevee

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DO NOT RESPOND TO QUOTES INSIDE OF QUOTES



... said:


> I don't know how to describe - for example, if I type in 'Serebii', it lists Serebii and then there's forum posts in which I happened to mention serebii. It's similar to the most recent version of Opera's address bar (which I also hate). I hate it because I don't want keywords to show up in the address bar (I also think that zebra striping makes it look ugly.)


then you are Doing It Wrong.  using the address bar just for URLs is a mere artifact of old technology.  Firefox 3's (and presumably Opera 9.5's) learns what you pick, so if what you want isn't at the top, pick it and it will bubble up next time you type the same thing.  it is *immensely* useful if you stop complaining that it doesn't work the same way as something old and broken and give it a chance to collect some stats from you.



... said:


> IE6 had this cute little thing that opened up at the side which displayed Google and then once you looked something up, it showed you the links and when you clicked them, they opened in the main page.


you can set bookmarks to open in the sidebar, or find something else that does what you want



... said:


> Apparently there's some stupid complication with running IE6 with Vista.


that complication would be "IE6 is a bucket of assholes and even Microsoft doesn't want to deal with it any more"

actually I guess that goes for Vista too; enjoy your new OS!

use vmware or similar, or don't bother


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## Abwayax

I use Opera and Firefox because they're both awesome. I really don't make a conscious decision to use a certain browser, I just pick whichever one my cursor is nearest to I suppose.

But I'd say Opera is my favorite because, well, I just like it better. My action of liking Opera more, in my view, sticks it up the buttocks of Mozilla's amazingly effective marketing machine, which seems to be the actual reason Fx is so popular (plug-ins aren't a revolutionary technology, nor are tabs)


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## Shiny Grimer

Eevee said:


> FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DO NOT RESPOND TO QUOTES INSIDE OF QUOTES


fwoosh



> then you are Doing It Wrong.  using the address bar just for URLs is a mere artifact of old technology.  Firefox 3's (and presumably Opera 9.5's) learns what you pick, so if what you want isn't at the top, pick it and it will bubble up next time you type the same thing.  it is *immensely* useful if you stop complaining that it doesn't work the same way as something old and broken and give it a chance to collect some stats from you.


I can see how it's useful, but I prefer to type in the address and then see the page I want through the title thing on the right. I'm somewhat used to it now, though.



> you can set bookmarks to open in the sidebar, or find something else that does what you want


I liked it but don't care much about it anymore. It's just a nostalgic thing for me since I always used it to search for videogame cheats back when all I had was a Nintendo 64. =S



> that complication would be "IE6 is a bucket of assholes and even Microsoft doesn't want to deal with it any more"
> 
> actually I guess that goes for Vista too; enjoy your new OS!
> 
> use vmware or similar, or don't bother


I just want it for testing since apparently a large amount of people don't want to change to IE7 and I don't want my site will look like mashed potatoes in it. I know how suckish it is.

Ironically, Opera gave up on me so I'm using IE to view while I close the 58+ tabs I have.


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## Dark Tyranitar

I use Firefox. I mainly use it because that's what a couple of websites I like work best on, and it isn't IE.

BTW, and this may make me sound like an idiot, but how do you upgrade to Firefox 3.0 from 2.0? And what are the differences?


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## opaltiger

Dark Tyranitar said:


> I use Firefox. I mainly use it because that's what a couple of websites I like work best on, and it isn't IE.
> 
> BTW, and this may make me sound like an idiot, but how do you upgrade to Firefox 3.0 from 2.0? And what are the differences?


Uh, you download Fx3 and install it?


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## Abwayax

Dark Tyranitar said:


> And what are the differences?


The *AWESOME BAR™*, for one.

Oh, and other minor things like improved support for W3C standards, but that's not important


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## Eevee

Number 100 said:


> My action of liking Opera more, in my view, sticks it up the buttocks of Mozilla's amazingly effective marketing machine, which seems to be the actual reason Fx is so popular (plug-ins aren't a revolutionary technology, nor are tabs)


there is also that
- Firefox was not shareware when the Browser Wars II started
- Firefox does not have quite so much extraneous crap that hides actual useful features
- Firefox does not pester you about enabling features you may never have heard of
- despite extensions not being revolutionary, Firefox actually has an extension mechanism

opera is fine but a lot of the UI is kinda terrible and it is by far not the sort of thing a casual user should be touching.



Dark Tyranitar said:


> BTW, and this may make me sound like an idiot, but how do you upgrade to Firefox 3.0 from 2.0? And what are the differences?


http://www.squarefree.com/burningedge/releases/trunk-for-firefox-3.html


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## Evolutionary

I use IE. Just wondering, what is so bad about IE because I don't have any problems with it at all. I'm not allowed to download other browsers so IE was the one already there so I just went with it. But really if IE is that bad I will consider getting another browser but probaly not, to me extra features don't matter so if that's the case then _no thanks_. 

Thanks

From EeveeSkitty


----------



## Venged_Kitty

FIREFOXFIREFOXFIREFOXFIREFOXFIREFOXFIREFOXFIREFOXFIREFOXFIREFOX

I stopped using Internet Explorer in 3rd grade, I think, when I found out about Netscape. I liked that it had tabs, and as I used it, I noticed it was faster. Then, when Firefox came out, I used that. I did try Opera, and I liked the widgets, but it was just suck overall. Safari was fast, but featureless. I also used a text based browser called Lynx. It was cool, but... meh... Those are all the browsers I"ve used, unless you count Swift Switch, a Runescape browser that sucks.


----------



## Furretsu

EeveeSkitty said:


> I use IE. Just wondering, what is so bad about IE because I don't have any problems with it at all. I'm not allowed to download other browsers so IE was the one already there so I just went with it. But really if IE is that bad I will consider getting another browser but probaly not, to me extra features don't matter so if that's the case then _no thanks_.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> From EeveeSkitty


Why not just read the thread?


----------



## King Clam

EeveeSkitty said:


> I use IE. Just wondering, what is so bad about IE because I don't have any problems with it at all. I'm not allowed to download other browsers so IE was the one already there so I just went with it. But really if IE is that bad I will consider getting another browser but probaly not, to me extra features don't matter so if that's the case then _no thanks_.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> From EeveeSkitty


Read the fuckin' thread.


----------



## Venged_Kitty

EeveeSkitty said:


> I use IE. Just wondering, what is so bad about IE because I don't have any problems with it at all. I'm not allowed to download other browsers so IE was the one already there so I just went with it. But really if IE is that bad I will consider getting another browser but probaly not, to me extra features don't matter so if that's the case then _no thanks_.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> From EeveeSkitty


1. Opening up new tabs takes forever.
2. Firefox and Opera have the ability to save your session.
3. Firefox is completely customizable.
4. Opera also has a fair amount of choices.
5. Nintendo makes the game systems which run Pokemon, Microsoft doesn't. Thus, Microsoft loses.
6. Firefox, Opera, and Safari are all faster than Internet Explorer, as well as more secure.
7. Being the most popular browser, as well as being used mostly by "business people", Internet Explorer is a giant target in security.
8. Opera has a widget where a little Mew bouncing a Pokeball appears. Nothing beats that. Nothing.
9. Speaking of widgets, they will keep you more busy than anything else you'd be doing on the internet.
10. Firefox has an automatic spell check with multiple languages available for download.
11. Opera has a semi automatic spell check, along with a grammar check.
12. When you zoom pages on Opera, it zooms in on the images as well. Firefox has an add on that can do that, also.
13. With add ons such as NoScript, Firefox can become even more secure.
14. By adjusting Firefox's port settings, it can go much faster than it usually does.

That's enough for now. I'll be happy to share more if you want it, though.


If you want to open up the ports, here's how, to anyone wondering:



			
				A Friend said:
			
		

> 1.Type “about:config” into the address bar and hit return. Scroll down and look for the following entries:
> 
> network.http.pipelining network.http.proxy.pipelining network.http.pipelining.maxrequests
> 
> Normally the browser will make one request to a web page at a time. When you enable pipelining it will make several at once, which really speeds up page loading.
> 
> 2. Alter the entries as follows:
> 
> Set “network.http.pipelining” to “true” (simply double click)
> 
> Set “network.http.proxy.pipelining” to “true” (again, just double click)
> 
> Set “network.http.pipelining.maxrequests” to some number like 30. This means it will make 30 requests at once.
> 
> 3. Lastly right-click anywhere and select New-> Integer. Name it “nglayout.initialpaint.delay” and set its value to “0″. This value is the amount of time the browser waits before it acts on information it receives.
> 
> If you’re using a broadband connection you’ll load pages MUCH faster now!


----------



## Abwayax

Venged_Kitty said:


> 5. Nintendo makes the game systems which run Pokemon, Microsoft doesn't. Thus, Microsoft loses.


How exactly is Pokemon relevant to a browser war?



Venged_Kitty said:


> 12. When you zoom pages on Opera, it zooms in on the images as well. Firefox has an add on that can do that, also.


Firefox 3 has this built in btw



Venged_Kitty said:


> 13. With add ons such as NoScript, Firefox can become even more secure.


All noscript does is disable javascript and flash, and I'm fairly certain Opera can do this as well.



Venged_Kitty said:


> 14. By adjusting Firefox's port settings, it can go much faster than it usually does.


Opera does pipelining by default, from what I know, and (of course) IE doesn't support it at all.

*PROTIP:* If anyone *HAS TO* use IE, _at least_ slap this onto it.


----------



## Venged_Kitty

Meh, I guess me putting Pokemon in to it was just a habit. I made over 200 posts in another browser war topic. It's cooling down, but a few months ago, there was a huge Opera vs. Firefox war. Eventually, the Opera users had fits and left the forums. A few of the Firefox users did, too. In the end, it was down to one Opera user and I, and it eventually just ended. By that time, though, we were relating browsers to cereal and comparing the names, Opera = Opera Music, etc. It's crazy.


----------



## Arylett Charnoa

Well, I switched to Opera now. I wish I could change my answer on the poll, but eh. Opera's pretty cool, I like it a lot now. Saving sessions is probably the feature I use the most.


----------



## Venged_Kitty

Which Firefox 3 has as well :^þ


----------



## Shiny Grimer

However Firefox 3 is so slow (at least on my computer. It's the slowest of my browsers) that it really doesn't matter.
The spellcheck is kind of cool, but it's bothersome that Pikmin and stuff are always underlined.
I've gotten used to the 'awesome bar' so it doesn't bother me as much as before.


----------



## surskitty

... said:


> The spellcheck is kind of cool, but it's bothersome that Pikmin and stuff are always underlined.


... then add it to the dictionary?


----------



## opaltiger

> PROTIP: If anyone HAS TO use IE, at least slap this onto it.


I'm not sure how stable the IE8 Beta is but it can't be much worse than IE7 so you may want to consider that instead


----------



## Zhorken

surskitty said:
			
		

> ... then add it to the dictionary?


Or, better, turn off the spellcheck if you're confident.


----------



## Abwayax

opaltiger said:


> I'm not sure how stable the IE8 Beta is but it can't be much worse than IE7 so you may want to consider that instead


ie8 isn't all that great, actually; it does render acid2 so it's better on standards but it fucks up on pages coded for IE (I turned on Emulate IE7 mode not long after upgrading it). I still prefer firefox and opera, I just installed ie7pro (soon to be called iepro to emphasize it works on ie8 as well) on it just so it could almost compare to the other browsers


----------



## opaltiger

> but it fucks up on pages coded for IE (I turned on Emulate IE7 mode not long after upgrading it).


well you can hardly blame IE8 for finally doing it RIGHT.


----------



## Abwayax

opaltiger said:


> well you can hardly blame IE8 for finally doing it RIGHT.


True; but there's something to be said when IE fails it even when it wins it.

Not that it's IE8's fault, of course, if people didn't have to hack their code to make it work correctly in IE5 and 6... :-\


----------



## Mirry

I'm using Fx2 at the moment, although I may upgrade to Fx3 sometime in the near future. :P I'm just sort of attached to this version for now and it will take me a bit to be able to let go. (Also, Adblock Plus for the win.)

I also have IE7 on my computer, mostly because some websites are stupid and are like, "HEY OUR WEBSITE ONLY WORKS IN INTERNET EXPLORER SORRY". I avoid using IE whenever possible though because I hate it. X_X


----------



## Murkrow

I have IE7 on my computer because it's built into Vista. :(

Does anyone else here prefer IE6 to IE7?


----------



## Abwayax

Mirry said:


> some websites are stupid and are like, "HEY OUR WEBSITE ONLY WORKS IN INTERNET EXPLORER SORRY".


you'd be looking for User Agent Switcher then

alternatively, if it actually doesn't work in firefox, use IETab. Technically you're still using IE (well, its rendering component at least), except it saves you the trouble of clicking the IE icon.


----------



## Venged_Kitty

... said:


> However Firefox 3 is so slow (at least on my computer. It's the slowest of my browsers) that it really doesn't matter.
> The spellcheck is kind of cool, but it's bothersome that Pikmin and stuff are always underlined.
> I've gotten used to the 'awesome bar' so it doesn't bother me as much as before.



Right Click -> Add To Dictionary


----------



## Renteura

Venged_Kitty said:
			
		

> 8. Opera has a widget where a little Mew bouncing a Pokeball appears. Nothing beats that. Nothing.


I have that. :D

It's true.
Nothing beats it.



I use Firefox for general browsing, sometimes Opera, but mostly Firefox. 
I use Opera for sprite-getting though, because Firefox leaves that annoying black box around images.


----------



## surskitty

Renteura said:


> because Firefox leaves that annoying black box around images.


What, you mean that thing that's caused by a problem with the Windows clipboard rather than anything having to do with Firefox?


----------



## Kratos Aurion

Mirry said:


> I'm using Fx2 at the moment, although I may upgrade to Fx3 sometime in the near future. :P I'm just sort of attached to this version for now and it will take me a bit to be able to let go. (Also, Adblock Plus for the win.)


Adblock Plus is fully compatible with Fx3 and has been pretty much since its release, iirc.


----------



## surskitty

Most of the major add-ons have been compatible since sometime during beta-testing.


----------



## Renteura

surskitty said:


> What, you mean that thing that's caused by a problem with the Windows clipboard rather than anything having to do with Firefox?


Oh. Well, it works with Opera, so I assumed it was Firefox. :L


----------



## Get Innocuous!

I like Opera better than IE and FF, and I really quite like the Speed Dial function. Newest version's removed and changed some keyboard shortcuts, though, and I can be arsed neither to find the option to change them nor switch back to the previous version.


----------



## Abwayax

Renteura said:


> Oh. Well, it works with Opera, so I assumed it was Firefox. :L


i think opera is a pretty cool browser. eh is immune to windows clipboard bugs and doesn't afraid of anything

also for the record, I'm for both Opera and Firefox, I use both because they both kick ass

Maybe Safari does too, I should go try it out. IE8 + IE7pro isn't _too_ bad after discounting the Trident engine's longstanding inferiority.


----------



## Zhorken

I'm pretty sure opera just gives it a white border instead of a black one.  I haven't touched Windows in half a year, though, so :V

EDIT: Also a minute of research reveals that opera is proprietary and rejects native theming (more importantly, being uniform with everything else -- wooo special snowflake browsers) so I now hate it on principle


----------



## Mirry

Kratos Aurion said:


> Adblock Plus is fully compatible with Fx3 and has been pretty much since its release, iirc.


Oh I didn't think that Adblock Plus wasn't compatible with Fx3; I didn't mean my two statements to be related really. :P

(Oh and thanks for the links to the User Agent Switcher and IETab. ^_^)


----------



## 1. Luftballon

Generally Firefox (because I love the HTML validator extension); Often elinks; sometimes Opera, and IE exactly once for each installation of Microsoft's OS.


----------



## Abwayax

okay since it's clear who the winner is here, I have a question

... When/what exactly is Part 2 of this epic battle (it says part 1 in the title so um)?


----------



## OrangeAipom

Maybe when a new Fx comes out.


----------



## Abwayax

um, do you think everyone's opinions will suddenly change when Fx 4 is released?


----------



## Mirry

Has anybody tried the beta version of Google's new "Chrome" browser? I haven't, but it does intrigue me.


----------



## Tailsy

Not yet, but one of my friends has and he says it's pretty good. -shrugs- Don't take his word for it, though, he just squirts water at me in Computing.


----------



## Evolutionary

I changed to Firefox. It really is as great as everyone says it is but still isn't good enough to flame IE users for.


----------



## Eevee

no, the giant pain in the ass it is for Web developers is enough to flame IE users for

I don't care if you use Firefox or Opera or Safari or Chrome or Flock or Konqueror or SeaMonkey or K-Meleon or whatever


----------



## Jason-Kun

I use AOL Desktop and Firefox. I only use IE to browse sites I shouldn't be on.


----------



## Worst Username Ever

I use Firefox on the computers I have it on, but most of the timee I just use Internet Explorer.


----------



## ___urnamz2longfixit___

I was using Internet Explorer 7 up until a few months ago when I downloaded Mozilla Firefox 3 because of all the hype over it. I've been turned off from downloading Chrome by various friends online who've told me that it's not worth it. I find Mozilla Firefox 3 to be the best browser I've used, but I don't use browsers for much more than searching the web and taking screenshots so my say doesn't really count too much.


----------



## IIMarckus

Eevee said:


> no, the giant pain in the ass it is for Web developers is enough to flame IE users for


No, but it's enough to flame the IE developers for. Most end users of IE don't know better.

Firefox is great for the extensions, but very slow. Chrome is nice but doesn't install on Windows 2000 (my lone Windows system); it's also irritating that they regressed on standards support when Webkit has been passing Acid3 since March. I've heard good things about Konqueror, but I really don't want to have to install KDE...


----------



## T-man

I use IE. Why? It's on here and it works. What else do I need?


----------



## OrangeAipom

Jason-Kun said:


> I use *IE* and Firefox.


Fixed.


----------



## Retsu

T-man said:


> I use IE. Why? It's on here and it works. What else do I need?


This was brought up at least twice now in the thread. Please read it before saying stupid things like that.


----------



## IIMarckus

Retsu said:


> This was brought up at least twice now in the thread. Please read it before saying stupid things like that.


It's not stupid at all, and you're deluding yourself if you think Firefox (or whatever) is best for everybody. All he wants is something to view web pages with, and IE, despite its flaws, does it well enough.

End-user convenience is more important than you seem to think.


----------



## o_O

Firefox, Safari, Chrome, Opera, IE. In that order.
When Chrome gets add-ons or moves out of beta (like 500 years from now) we'll talk.


----------



## surskitty

IIMarckus said:


> It's not stupid at all, and you're deluding yourself if you think Firefox (or whatever) is best for everybody. All he wants is something to view web pages with, and IE, despite its flaws, does it well enough.
> 
> End-user convenience is more important than you seem to think.


But when it's costing web developers much more time to cater to IE users....


----------



## Retsu

IIMarckus said:


> It's not stupid at all, and you're deluding yourself if you think Firefox (or whatever) is best for everybody. All he wants is something to view web pages with, and IE, despite its flaws, does it well enough.
> 
> End-user convenience is more important than you seem to think.


Christ, what is up with the Firefox assumptions? Did I say anywhere that I wanted to him to start using Firefox?


----------



## Eevee

IIMarckus said:


> All he wants is something to view web pages with, and IE, despite its flaws, does it well enough.


"Good enough" is the greatest enemy of software development.


----------



## IIMarckus

Retsu said:


> Christ, what is up with the Firefox assumptions? Did I say anywhere that I wanted to him to start using Firefox?





IIMarckus said:


> *Firefox (or whatever)*


---


surskitty said:


> But when it's costing web developers much more time to cater to IE users....


Then blame the IE devs, not the users.





Eevee said:


> "Good enough" is the greatest enemy of software development.


On the development side of things, it is, yes. Not on the user side.

I could learn regexes to change some strings in a text file I have, or I could use Find & Replace. Assuming the replacements I'm wanting to make aren't that complex, I'd rather use the latter. Even though regular expressions (Firefox) can do things that Find & Replace (IE) can't do, for replacing simple strings (day-to-day web browsing) it's not a problem to use the inferior product rather than spend time learning a new technique.


----------



## surskitty

I blame both the IE devs _and_ the IE users because it's not hard to change to Firefox and if nobody used IE, then it wouldn't matter that it's godawful.


----------



## Eevee

False analogy.

1. IE and Firefox pull from external data sources, for which I am partially responsible.  You can use whatever clunky tools you want for your own stuff, but I am sure as hell going to _encourage_ people to upgrade when it has a significant impact on me personally.  You're omitting the one little factor that makes this a notable concern for me at all.

2. The problem is not generally with people who are satisfied with Find & Replace; it is with people who want to do something too complex for Find & Replace so decide to do it _manually_ instead because that's _good enough_.  I recently saw a Wikipedia editor complain about spending 20 minutes deleting every few lines from some table markup; this could be done in a decent text editor in a fraction of that time.  _Good enough_ wastes unfathomable amounts of user time, too.


----------



## IIMarckus

surskitty said:


> I blame both the IE devs _and_ the IE users because it's not hard to change to Firefox and if nobody used IE, then it wouldn't matter that it's godawful.


Most computer users don't know how to install software. Most computer users also haven't heard of other web browsers.





Eevee said:


> 1. IE and Firefox pull from external data sources, for which I am partially responsible.  You can use whatever clunky tools you want for your own stuff, but I am sure as hell going to _encourage_ people to upgrade when it has a significant impact on me personally.  You're omitting the one little factor that makes this a notable concern for me at all.


By all means encourage people to upgrade, but don't spew vitriol when they value their own convenience better than yours.





Eevee said:


> 2. The problem is not generally with people who are satisfied with Find & Replace; it is with people who want to do something too complex for Find & Replace so decide to do it _manually_ instead because that's _good enough_.  I recently saw a Wikipedia editor complain about spending 20 minutes deleting every few lines from some table markup; this could be done in a decent text editor in a fraction of that time.


And in that case a regex would be appropriate. Hence why I restricted the domain to changes that "aren't that complex."

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending IE's backwardness. I love application/xhtml+xml. But there are times when I'm not on my own computer, and Internet Explorer is the only browser that's installed. (No, I don't have Firefox on a flash drive, and I would rather use any browser from IE to Lynx if it's already installed on the computer rather than fill it up with useless programs.) My dad still uses Netscape because that's what he's had since 1999. Some people think that little blue e _is_ the Internet. Blaming people like this for using browsers that make you curse and swear as you fix CSS bugs is silly and won't get anyone anywhere.


----------



## Eevee

IIMarckus said:


> And in that case a regex would be appropriate. Hence why I restricted the domain to changes that "aren't that complex."


Hence why your analogy was bad.



IIMarckus said:


> By all means encourage people to upgrade, but don't spew vitriol when they value their own convenience better than yours.
> 
> ...
> 
> My dad still uses Netscape because that's what he's had since 1999. Some people think that little blue e _is_ the Internet. Blaming people like this for using browsers that make you curse and swear as you fix CSS bugs is silly and won't get anyone anywhere.


You are sure making a large cognitive leap here.  Yes, I am annoyed when people who understand the problem still adamantly refuse to even try out any browser besides IE just because they don't feel like it.  I don't see how this implies that I am out to get your tech-unsavvy grandma and would beat her in the face given the chance.


----------



## T-man

Eevee said:


> False analogy.
> 
> 2. The problem is not generally with people who are satisfied with Find & Replace; it is with people who want to do something too complex for Find & Replace so decide to do it _manually_ instead because that's _good enough_. I recently saw a Wikipedia editor complain about spending 20 minutes deleting every few lines from some table markup; this could be done in a decent text editor in a fraction of that time. _Good enough_ wastes unfathomable amounts of user time, too.


Ah, but you forget something in your little Find and Replace rant: 

*I AM FINE WITH WHAT FIND AND REPLACE DOES *

If, for some reason I need to do something that Find and Replace CAN'T do what I need it to do, then I will find a alliterative. If I don't NEED to do that, than why should I? I have what I need, it does what it needs to do, and I am familer with it's workings. Just because you seem to think everyone needs "Finding and Fixing words" or what-have-you, for the sheer reason as that it exist, and that you think "Finding and Fixing words' is better, get a reality check, okay?

Now, I'm not saying Find and Replace is better than the other product, I'm just saying that I just use what I have if it's all I need for what it does.


----------



## Eevee

T-man said:


> Ah, but you forget something in your little Find and Replace rant:
> 
> *I AM FINE WITH WHAT FIND AND REPLACE DOES *
> 
> If, for some reason I need to do something that Find and Replace CAN'T do what I need it to do, then I will find a alliterative. If I don't NEED to do that, than why should I? I have what I need, it does what it needs to do, and I am familer with it's workings.


Swing and a miss.

You don't even know what alternatives do.  You don't even know what alternatives are _available_, so when you _do_ need something else, the first instinct most people have is to waste time doing it manually or do a half-assed job.  Sometimes, alternatives can do things most non-super-nerds hadn't even _heard_ of.

In Ubuntu out of the box, I can resize a window by holding Alt and dragging it _anywhere in the window_ with the right mouse button.  I don't have to find the edges or care where they are; I just hold a key and drag, and it resizes from the nearest corner.  Did you know that was possible?  Can you imagine how incredibly useful that is without having done it; how much nicer it is to have another source of time-suck and frustration merely vanish?  Would you even _imagine_ that's possible and look for a product that can do it?

Keyboard shortcuts are another grand example; even the most basic text-editing ones.  I have over and over watched people press right-arrow multiple times instead of End, or press up a lot (or use a scrollbar) instead of Ctrl-Home, or click between tabs instead of Ctrl-Tab, etc.  Loads of people don't seek them out because it doesn't occur to them, and even if it does, they don't learn them because what they have is _good enough_.  Good enough makes people slow and clumsy and prevents them from finding better ways to do their work that could save them thousands of hours later.

People are incredibly unreceptive to new tools that could make things way easier for them with a minimal input of effort and it drives me bonkers.  You're doing it right now; you're getting angry and snide because I'm merely taking the position that, hey, maybe there are better tools out there.



T-man said:


> Just because you seem to think everyone needs "Finding and Fixing words" or what-have-you, for the sheer reason as that it exist, and that you think "Finding and Fixing words' is better, get a reality check, okay?


This has nothing to do with using some cool shiny toy because it exists.  I am an OCD nerd.  I do not recommend software or methodology lightly, and if I am _wrong_ about an option then I am deeply interested to hear why.  I've spent weeks looking for a _music player app_ that did everything I wanted it to.

I brought up find and replace because powerful editors have regular expression support.  The upshot of this is that you can say things like "remove all the spaces at the end of every line" or "find everything that looks like a phone number" in a matter of seconds.  Did you know this was possible?  Would you have thought to look for something better if you had to do one of these tasks?  Would you even have known what to look for?

Those tasks are not _impossible_ to do manually; they will just take you a while and be more prone to error.  So why would you look for a better way to do something you can already do?


----------



## Evolutionary

It's true some people think that Internet Explorer is the internet not just a browser out of many. I used to think that little 'e' symbol WAS the whole internet. Most schools seem to have it, or at least where I live. I'm not saying it isn't bad, I'm just pointing out lots of kids think IE is the internet and you can hardly blame people for using it if they've used it there whole life and have been taught where everything is when they're a little kid. I use Firefox so people wouldn't annoy me to death just to get it.


----------



## Doctor Jimmy

Internet Explorer

1. Speed: Using this registry hack, IE becomes almost as fast as Firefox or Opera. In fact, some pages load faster.

2. Compatability: Most websites (OK, maybe not _most_...but some) are comatable with the shitty IE standards.

3. Integration: IE uses native theming (aero in Vista, a solid, native color for the address and tab bar in XP) to integrate with the operating system. Whenever I upload a file to someplace (Tinypic, email attachments, etc), a native explorer window is used, complete with the favorties sidebar and the search box. Other browsers I've used, like Opera, don't have this feature.

4. RSS: IE has a really simple RSS page, that loads headers, content, and images. While Opera has this feature, the email-like layout of it is kind of not productive. Firefox only has headers, and while this is OK, I prefer seeing the content on the RSS page rather than loading the full page.

5. Security: Whenever I download something from the internets, there's a yellow bar at the top that warns me of a download. I have to approve the download first before doing it. Firefox doesn't have this feature, although it does ask you where to download to beforehand, which IE can also do. Nevermind the security, I just opened a virus from some hellhole on the interbutts. Its IE's fault too, probably ;_;

6. Interface: IE has two toolbars, compared to the four enabled by default on Firefox (menu, address, bookmarks, tab). There's also no menu bar needed for IE. This matches with other applications, like Office '07 and WMP. The interface is simple, and contains mostly icons with little text.

7. Alphabetized favorites: When organizing the links in the favorites folder in Windows by name, the favorites in IE7 are the same, and are in alphabetical order. I find this easier to find bookmarks with.

8. User account files: each browser uses a different kind of cookie managment system. For IE, the cookies are induvidual files stored in a folder somewhere in C:\Windows. Opera uses a single file with the cookies embedded inside. Firefox's cookies are stored in the user's folder (C:\users\<username>\AppData). I currently have Firefox and IE installed on my PC. That means I have two different sets of cookies stored on my machine, thus having twice the amount of cookies. If I have tracking cookies on my computer, like from casalemedia or Google, then that means I have twice the intrusive robot invaders scanning through my browsing history. The solution: only have one browser. In my eyes, Firefox and IE are equal in speed and in basic features, so why do I need both of them installed? I figure, if I use IE more than I use Firefox, then I'll probably uninstall Firefox and have IE as my main browser.

9. Old school:



			
				EveeSkitty said:
			
		

> It's true some people think that Internet Explorer is the internet not just a browser out of many. I used to think that little 'e' symbol WAS the whole internet. Most schools seem to have it, or at least where I live. I'm not saying it isn't bad, I'm just pointing out lots of kids think IE is the internet and you can hardly blame people for using it if they've used it there whole life and have been taught where everything is when they're a little kid.


Clicking the blue "e" has never been more fun. That yellow swoosh on the icon is just fantastic. Not.

tl;dr: I use IE7 and break the internet while doing so


----------



## Evolutionary

Are you against IE or what?


----------



## Doctor Jimmy

EeveeSkitty said:


> Are you against IE or what?


I like both IE and Firefox. However, IE has some features, explained above, that are hard to ignore. Which is why I use it more. It has some flaws as well, which is why I'm not so sure I want this as my main browser.


----------



## Eevee

Doctor Jimmy said:


> 1. Speed: Using this registry hack, IE becomes almost as fast as Firefox or Opera. In fact, some pages load faster.


"Almost" is an advantage?



Doctor Jimmy said:


> 3. Integration: IE uses native theming (aero in Vista, a solid, native color for the address and tab bar in XP) to integrate with the operating system. Whenever I upload a file to someplace (Tinypic, email attachments, etc), a native explorer window is used, complete with the favorties sidebar and the search box. Other browsers I've used, like Opera, don't have this feature.


Gecko browsers go to great pains to match native theming.  Opera, Safari, and Chrome go to great pains to be assholes.



Doctor Jimmy said:


> 4. RSS: IE has a really simple RSS page, that loads headers, content, and images. While Opera has this feature, the email-like layout of it is kind of not productive. Firefox only has headers, and while this is OK, I prefer seeing the content on the RSS page rather than loading the full page.


Firefox doesn't only have headers.  It just only shows the summary, like Safari.

I don't really understand why you would want to read a single RSS feed in the first place; presumably it's just a different view of a fully-fledged HTML page, right?  Why not read that?  And if you want to read several, use Google Reader or get a newsreader like Sage.



Doctor Jimmy said:


> 5. Security: Whenever I download something from the internets, there's a yellow bar at the top that warns me of a download. I have to approve the download first before doing it. Firefox doesn't have this feature, although it does ask you where to download to beforehand


What's the difference?  Asking what to do with a file sure sounds like confirmation.  Off the top of my head, only Safari will cheerfully download files out of the box with no confirmation or any other indication that it's doing anything.



Doctor Jimmy said:


> 6. Interface: IE has two toolbars, compared to the four enabled by default on Firefox (menu, address, bookmarks, tab). There's also no menu bar needed for IE. This matches with other applications, like Office '07 and WMP. The interface is simple, and contains mostly icons with little text.


IE has two toolbars because it crams an unrelated mass of menus onto the tabbar, greatly reducing the tabbar's usable space.  There are a multitude of ways of reclaiming the space taken by Firefox's menu bar if you really want to, and of course the bookmarks toolbar is unnecessary and easily removed.  Opera starts with menu/address/tab, but again I've seen some impressive minimalization done -- far better than IE will allow you to do.  Safari has the same set as Firefox, but of course the menu bar isn't part of the window on its native platform.

If you really want a minimal UI, you should either play with a more customizable browser or use Chrome, which has just a tabbar and address bar out of the box and *no* cruft on the tabbar.



Doctor Jimmy said:


> 7. Alphabetized favorites: When organizing the links in the favorites folder in Windows by name, the favorites in IE7 are the same, and are in alphabetical order. I find this easier to find bookmarks with.


This raises the question of why you are organizing links in the Windows Favorites folder in the first place.

Every major browser trivially allows you to sort bookmarks by name.


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## Doctor Jimmy

Eevee said:


> "Almost" is an advantage?


Een though it might only be "almost" as fast, it certainly feels a lot faster than Firefox. In IE, whenever a page is done loading, the spinning cursor goes away and the page is done loading. Firefox can load the content quickly, but then it hangs for a while to load the rest (I'm using Adblock Plus BTW)



> I don't really understand why you would want to read a single RSS feed in the first place; presumably it's just a different view of a fully-fledged HTML page, right?  Why not read that?  And if you want to read several, use Google Reader or get a newsreader like Sage.


I have multiple RSS feeds. Firefox makes it easier to find induvidual articles, but IE has the content and images as well. Since IE doesn't have Adblock Plus (IE7Pro doesn't work as well), viewing a simpler page without ads is better. 



> use Chrome


I tried Chrome before several times. While it is a good browser, its not as stable as Firefox or IE. There isn't a bookmarks manager in the beta build (there is in the testing build), and the interface is too simple and has too little features.



> Every major browser trivially allows you to sort bookmarks by name.


I know Safari can do this...but Firefox? I'll have to check that out.

Like I said some posts ago, I use both Firefox and IE. I like all of the current browsers, including Opera and Chrome. But until most websites stop working in IE, or until I get tired of it, I'll use it. It works with everything, and while other browsers have some features that IE doesn't have, the main thing that I'm focused on is going to web sites and web applications using a modern browser. No, I'm not a stubborn asshole either, I've used plenty of browsers. IE, Firefox, Opera, Chrome, etc. all have CSS1-2, Javascript, and Ajax enabled, and most websites have those. So, unless if there's some feature or something I haven't heard about that will make me switch, I'll continue to use a web browser that has these features enabled. And for now, that is IE.

EDIT: I just tried out the testing builds of Firefox 3.1, and they're so much faster than IE. I might use this for now on...FF3.1 Beta 1 is slower than IE, however, and those are more stable than Minefield. So it depends on how reliable the testing builds are, and if they're worth it. Like I said, web pages work almost the same way in IE as they do in other browsers.


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## Eevee

Doctor Jimmy said:


> Firefox can load the content quickly, but then it hangs for a while to load the rest


What do you mean by 'the rest'?  Images?



Doctor Jimmy said:


> I have multiple RSS feeds. Firefox makes it easier to find induvidual articles, but IE has the content and images as well. Since IE doesn't have Adblock Plus (IE7Pro doesn't work as well), viewing a simpler page without ads is better.


Er, but Firefox DOES have adblock, so why do you need to view the feed..?

Whatever you use, seriously, try Google Reader.



Doctor Jimmy said:


> I know Safari can do this...but Firefox? I'll have to check that out.


Right-click anything in the bookmarks menu or manager: 'sort by name'.



Doctor Jimmy said:


> IE, Firefox, Opera, Chrome, etc. all have CSS1-2, Javascript, and Ajax enabled, and most websites have those.


That's just it.  IE's CSS2 and Javascript support are abysmal (in ways that are often undocumented or worse) and cause endless headaches for developers.  It's also made zero inroads into supporting much _else_, like SVG or MathML or aPNG or CSS3 or HTML5 or XHTML or any number of other cool tools everyone has to avoid using.  It's even forcing a lot of apps that could be open and inspectable into being Flash apps, because IE itself is clueless.   If it were a decent browser with a good track record of keeping up with Web trends, I wouldn't give half a crap what people use.



Doctor Jimmy said:


> So, unless if there's some feature or something I haven't heard about that will make me switch, I'll continue to use a web browser that has these features enabled.


Other browsers have adblock, bookmark keywords, fully-featured feed readers, ctrl-tab previews, BitTorrent support, mouse gestures, session management, desktop shortcuts to chromeless Web apps, instant-search history...


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## Ivana

I use IE.  I have tried Firefox, and there's really no difference I can see, and if there is one, I already know all the controls of IE, so I'm keeping on using it.


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## Seritinajii

I use Google Chrome - I used to use Firefox, but for some reason my it got extremely slow on my compy. So I heard of Chrome and used it.

I miss Firefox though, but Chrome is okay. And the new tab with all the most-visited pages is pretty convenient. =D


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## surskitty

@IVANA: Dude, do the internet a favour and use Firefox.  No, really.  The differences aren't that major for an end-user, but it's a pain for web developers if people use IE.

@SERITINAJII: ... Firefox has an automatic bookmark for your most visited pages.


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## Evolutionary

I haven't tried Chrome yet but can anyone tell me the main differences to Firefox and reasons i would want to use it?


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## Abwayax

EeveeSkitty said:


> I haven't tried Chrome yet but can anyone tell me the main differences to Firefox and reasons i would want to use it?


http://www.pcworld.com/article/150828/browser_battle_firefox_31_vs_chrome_vs_ie_8.html?

in all honesty I've tried Chrome but it just doesn't appeal to me. It's not a bad browser... it just doesn't appeal to me


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## opaltiger

I'm not entirely sure I trust an article that says



> Security. With Microsoft at its helm, IE hangs on to a reputation of safe and reliable browsing.


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## Retsu

I'm entirely sure I don't, opal.


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## Doctor Jimmy

surskitty said:


> @IVANA: Dude, do the internet a favour and use Firefox.  No, really.  The differences aren't that major for an end-user, but it's a pain for web developers if people use IE.


Look at this.



Out of all the people who access the web, only a fraction are web developers; ordinary web users greatly outnumber programmers. Most of your visitors use IE. Web developers, on the other hand, use more advanced browsers such as Firefox, Chrome, and Opera. With this fact at hand, think: who are you programming for? The web surfers, or the web developers?


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## opaltiger

I would like to contrast this chart with one from, say, 2003.


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## Doctor Jimmy

opaltiger said:


> I would like to contrast this chart with one from, say, 2003.


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## surskitty

Doctor Jimmy said:


> With this fact at hand, think: who are you programming for? The web surfers, or the web developers?


With this fact at hand, who do you think you want to keep happy?  The developers who will quite frequently put up their hands and say "screw this" after trying to make things work for IE, or the 70% of people browsing who are either too stubborn or ignorant to switch browsers?

Switch for the developers' benefit if nothing else; it's not going to cause you any problems unless you spend 90% of your time checking Microsoft's sites.


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## Doctor Jimmy

surskitty said:


> 70% of people browsing


'Nuff said.



surskitty said:


> too stubborn or ignorant


Wow, you just insulted 70% of the internet.


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## surskitty

Ignorant is not an insult by itself.  There's nothing wrong with not knowing things.  There _is_ something wrong with not knowing things and refusing to learn more.


Also, most people are stupid.  This should not be a surprise.


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## Doctor Jimmy

surskitty said:


> Also, most people are stupid.


I think this "ignorance" that you're pinning onto the mass population is quite ironic, given that the above poster fails to realize the mainstream public greatly outnumbers this small group of "intelligent" people. Most people, who are supposedly stupid, can care less if you are smarter than they are, since they know that a large population is more signifigant than a smaller one, such as yours.

Unless if you're calling yourself stupid...which would be both funny and pathetic.


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## surskitty

The mainstream public finds answers to problems by either typing "[topic].com" into the address bar or doing Google searches in the form of questions such as "who is foo" or "how do i know if i am baring right".  This does not mean that using Google sensibly is a bad idea.

Just because the majority does something, through stubbornness or ignorance or willful stupidity, does not mean that other people should follow along with it.


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## Bombsii

Safari because everything looks funky and it actually lets me on youtube.


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