# [TOWN WINS] ASB Halloween Mafia



## Negrek (Nov 17, 2017)

ASB Central is quiet tonight. Usually there would be trainers out battling until all hours in the morning, since after all most reasonable people being asleep means some of the prime arenas in the park are actually free. Right now, though, not even the most hardcore battleheads are taking advantage. There's just something about serial killers, or organized crime, or _whatever_ it is that's got people turning up shot, that makes it tough to work up the enthusiasm for a good old pokémon match.

*Night zero begins now. Please put down USUM for a few minutes and send me your night action in the next seventy-two hours!*


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## Negrek (Nov 18, 2017)

*Re: [N0] ASB Halloween Mafia*

As the sun rises over ASB Central, the trainers emerge from their homes and troop out to catch up on the latest news, check up on friends and family. Fortunately most people have made it through just fine, but it would be hard to miss the one that didn't, given that he was shot right in the middle of the square.

*Superbird is dead. He was Town.

Seventy-two hours for discussion.*


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## M&F (Nov 19, 2017)

*Re: [D1] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Ooo, someone's birdhunting in the morning again. At this rate, mafiosi will have to start killing Butterfree or Kratos Aurion again, on account of how often Superbird's getting to be the perfectly safe choice of N0 kill.

Seems like at least one head in the mafia team isn't the sort that immediately lashes out at the biggest possible name, and if there's any of them that prefer to start with an inactive player, they're not making themselves heard. None of this is any sort of damning evidence, of course, but a close eye on scum behavior can later guide Town when the possibilities become thinner.


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## Kratos Aurion (Nov 19, 2017)

*Re: [D1] ASB Halloween Mafia*

hey man it sucks that Superbird keeps dying early but don't go puttin' ideas in people's heads, I like actually getting to play :(

Not much else to discuss this early on, obviously, but maybe with a full 72 hours to talk we've got enough time for something to come up, so that's nice.


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## M&F (Nov 19, 2017)

*Re: [D1] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Kratos Aurion said:


> hey man it sucks that Superbird keeps dying early but don't go puttin' ideas in people's heads, I like actually getting to play :(
> 
> Not much else to discuss this early on, obviously, but maybe with a full 72 hours to talk we've got enough time for something to come up, so that's nice.


Oh, no, don't worry, I'm not recommending it -- I'm saying that, when you analyze the game theory of the situation, it will happen whether I recommend it or not. (or I mean, it _may_ happen, but that'd sound less alarming)

And I dunno, from my experience, people don't always get to talking within 72 hours. Like in most of my g- harrumph!

(Speaking of, if the 14-strong playerbase thing can be counted on in the future, I might be favorable to trying my hand at making MFia happen again once we're done here...)


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## Eifie (Nov 19, 2017)

*Re: [D1] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Playing mafia online again is weird. At least I can get rid of that two-week banner that's been here for like, a year.

So, waddup. In a game of this size I guess we can expect like, three mafia plus a terrorist-type? Four would probably be a bit much.


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## RedneckPhoenix (Nov 19, 2017)

*Re: [D1] ASB Halloween Mafia*

I don't have much info. Just popping in to say.


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## Zero Moment (Nov 19, 2017)

*Re: [D1] ASB Halloween Mafia*

No information here, just checking in.


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## Cynder (Nov 19, 2017)

*Re: [D1] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Zero Moment said:


> No information here, just checking in.


Same


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## Flora (Nov 19, 2017)

*Re: [D1] ASB Halloween Mafia*

superbird is the guy Dave killed in telecodnd

I also have nothing to report, other than my shitty joke. But of course, it’s d1. Who ever has info on d1?


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## Stryke (Nov 19, 2017)

*Re: [D1] ASB Halloween Mafia*

No real information on my part, persay.


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## Gzhoom (Nov 19, 2017)

*Re: [D1] ASB Halloween Mafia*

I’ve nothing of importance to add, either.


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## I liek Squirtles (Nov 19, 2017)

*Re: [D1] ASB Halloween Mafia*

No info, either. I guess *Abstain*.


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## Keldeo (Nov 19, 2017)

*Re: [D1] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Oh shoot, sorry, I thought the day was starting irl-tonight and not yesterday. Serves me right for not checking the forums as much as I should, I guess. 

I don't have any leads either, unfortunately. Since we don't have even flavor clues about Superbird's role or death, actual information is going to be the name of the game here. I probably shouldn't have to say this, but if you have a role that could mess with inforoles or doctors - jailor, roleblocker, commuter, whatever - don't use it tonight. We need to make sure everyone with an investigative role can actually get information, otherwise we're just letting the mafia kill us.

Does anyone who hasn't spoken up yet have any info? Butterfree, SS?


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## RedneckPhoenix (Nov 19, 2017)

*Re: [D1] ASB Halloween Mafia*

I'm just gonna ask; did anyone get roleblocked last night, to their knowledge? That might be useful info.


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## Butterfree (Nov 20, 2017)

*Re: [D1] ASB Halloween Mafia*

I don't have anything of substance, no.


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## Sandstone-Shadow (Nov 20, 2017)

*Re: [D1] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Nope, nothing to add here yet. Do we have to vote for someone, or can we choose not to vote for anyone tonight?


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## M&F (Nov 20, 2017)

*Re: [D1] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Keldeo said:


> I don't have any leads either, unfortunately. Since we don't have even flavor clues about Superbird's role or death, actual information is going to be the name of the game here.


I mean, where there's not information, there's always behavior. Like being in a hurry to no-lynch just because no one's come forward with something yet, hmmm?

As common as D1 abstains are around these parts, every abstain is a missed opportunity to lynch mafia, let's not forget.


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## Cynder (Nov 20, 2017)

*Re: [D1] ASB Halloween Mafia*

But in a random lynch there is a better chance of accidentally killing an innocent than actually killing mafai.


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## Cynder (Nov 20, 2017)

*Re: [D1] ASB Halloween Mafia*

*mafia

Assuming four anti-town players, as stated earlier, there is roughly a 40% chance of killing one of them. Not favourable for the Town.

I *Abstain]/b].*


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## Cynder (Nov 20, 2017)

*Re: [D1] ASB Halloween Mafia*

*Abstain*


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## Eifie (Nov 20, 2017)

*Re: [D1] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Metallica Fanboy said:


> I mean, where there's not information, there's always behavior. Like being in a hurry to no-lynch just because no one's come forward with something yet, hmmm?
> 
> As common as D1 abstains are around these parts, every abstain is a missed opportunity to lynch mafia, let's not forget.





Cynder said:


> But in a random lynch there is a better chance of accidentally killing an innocent than actually killing mafai.


I mean, we basically have this debate every game. Does anything useful actually come of it? I can play my part too!

"But in a random lynch, we actually have a chance of killing mafia, while if we just let them nightkill, an innocent will die!"


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## Gzhoom (Nov 20, 2017)

*Re: [D1] ASB Halloween Mafia*

*Abstain*


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## Kratos Aurion (Nov 20, 2017)

*Re: [D1] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Sandstone-Shadow said:


> Nope, nothing to add here yet. Do we have to vote for someone, or can we choose not to vote for anyone tonight?


To answer your question, unless the GM specifically states in the rules that lynch votes are required, you can either vote to abstain (as several people have done at this point) or just do nothing and let the day move on to night with no votes.

Not to run around in circles with the same argument again, but my personal stance is still that doing something is better than doing nothing and giving the mafia a free turn. Admittedly with such a vanilla start and therefore nothing to go off of, that does basically bring us down to lynching randomly at this point, and yes, that is unfortunate... but eh. I'm in no hurry to just give up entirely on trying to get work done just because there's no information right this second. We've still got a full day left.

Besides, posting to say you're abstaining is nice for activity (and I'll also spare you all my going off on _that_ tired rant), but if everyone's going to abstain anyway, it doesn't actually... do... anything? It's not like the day ends early when everyone's tossed in a vote of some kind. So I'm pretty comfortable waiting at least one more day to be sure that nothing interesting happens before voting one way or another. Conversations that start out about "oh well, there's nothing to do today, we should all just abstain" do occasionally turn into actionable information, after all.

(I mean, I dunno, I guess it helps balance out any votes that do actually occur in the event that those votes roll in toward the end of the day and you don't have a chance to post your opinion then, but eh. Aside from it looking a little like an attempt to stifle discussion, I've just never really seen the point in being so gung-ho to abstain, especially not during a relatively lengthy day phase.)


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## Keldeo (Nov 21, 2017)

*Re: [D1] ASB Halloween Mafia*

I agree we should do _something_ today, but I'm honestly pretty loath to lynch based on behavior this early in the game, since we have only a sentence or two to go on for most people. At least right now, I feel like any justification for a lynch based on someone's behavior would be really prone to confirmation bias and pretty much comparable to a randlynch, and that already has pretty low odds of hitting a mafia as mentioned.

For what it's worth, everyone who's posted relatively frequently is coming across as genuine to me - right now, I'm reading ILS/Cynder more as cautious/resigned townies than scum trying to prevent a lynch, especially given ILS's was the first vote of the day, and similarly MF/Eifie/Kratos seem more like town who want discussion rather than mafia who want a mislynch. (By the way, Cynder, I'm not sure where you're getting the 40% from, as 4/12 is closer to 30%? In any case, though, the mafia's already won if the numerical odds of lynching mafia ever get above 1/2, so that argument is always going to lead to abstaining.) I'm more skeptical of Gzhoom's commentary-less vote, although I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt because he's only been in one game here before.

As for everyone else, it's not like you can judge anything about someone's alignment from a one-line post about not having any information, so while I'd support a lynch based on actual behavior, I don't know whether one would be feasible given the amount we have so far? This discussion is giving us more to work with, though.


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## M&F (Nov 21, 2017)

*Re: [D1] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Kratos Aurion said:


> (I mean, I dunno, I guess it helps balance out any votes that do actually occur in the event that those votes roll in toward the end of the day and you don't have a chance to post your opinion then, but eh. Aside from it looking a little like an attempt to stifle discussion, I've just never really seen the point in being so gung-ho to abstain, especially not during a relatively lengthy day phase.)


Yeah, that's more or less what I meant. I'm not opposed to no-lynching per se, but I don't really see the logic of "no activity, no info -> abstain", specially when it's around the middle of the phase length. It honestly strikes me as being in a hurry to abstain (although I don't mean that that's necessarily scum behavior as opposed to a player vice), and I don't think it accomplishes a lot more than making things complicated for people if they do decide towards lynching farther down the line.



Keldeo said:


> In any case, though, the mafia's already won if the numerical odds of lynching mafia ever get above 1/2, so that argument is always going to lead to abstaining.)


I'm just nitpicking, but I think the way most GMs do it isn't per se "50% living players are mafia -> mafia win"; it requires a situation where literally nothing can stop the mafia from controlling the day vote and landing night kills in impunity. So, like, 50% mafia players wouldn't be a win if the vigilante is alive, since he can still kill mafia. (basically, the whole thing is an artifice to "the actual mafia win condition is killing all Town players, but we're not going to bother playing it out if we have a situation where any other outcome is now impossible")

MFia in particular doesn't operate that way -- it's usually a mafia win on 50% mafia players regardless of whether Town can still stop them killing everyone -- but Negrek's not me, so game design policies may differ.


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## Gzhoom (Nov 21, 2017)

*Re: [D1] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Keldeo said:


> For what it's worth, everyone who's posted relatively frequently is coming across as genuine to me - right now, I'm reading ILS/Cynder more as cautious/resigned townies than scum trying to prevent a lynch, especially given ILS's was the first vote of the day, and similarly MF/Eifie/Kratos seem more like town who want discussion rather than mafia who want a mislynch. (By the way, Cynder, I'm not sure where you're getting the 40% from, as 4/12 is closer to 30%? In any case, though, the mafia's already won if the numerical odds of lynching mafia ever get above 1/2, so that argument is always going to lead to abstaining.) I'm more skeptical of Gzhoom's commentary-less vote, although I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt because he's only been in one game here before.


Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt! I’m not used to text-based mafia games quite yet, I suppose. I should have clarified that I wanted to abstain because the chances were so low of lynching a mafia member. If we were to get one, that’d be amazing; however, since night 0 didn’t give us any information, I’d be worried that we’d accidentally lynch someone that could provide us with such information tonight (or kill any townspeople, for that matter. Then the mafia would be up by 3 kills tomorrow).

Also, I’m not sure how it reads behaviorally that I’m replying in such a reaffirmation-based tone. Hopefully this comes across as the expansion of that that I intended it to be.


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## Negrek (Nov 21, 2017)

*Re: [D1] ASB Halloween Mafia*

For the record, in this game the Mafia win when they outnumber the Town players, not when they tie or some other permutation.


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## M&F (Nov 21, 2017)

*Re: [D1] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Negrek said:


> For the record, in this game the Mafia win when they outnumber the Town players, not when they tie or some other permutation.


And there we go, Negrek is definitely not me. Transparent GMing??? What the f


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## Negrek (Nov 22, 2017)

*Re: [D1] ASB Halloween Mafia*

After a bit of nervous discussion, which involves a lot of shrugging, no real evidence or even a concrete suspect emerges. Ultimately the townsfolk decide that lynching someone without any clear reasoning in hopes of uncovering a Mafia member would simply be too risky and disperse again to lock themselves in their homes for the night, hoping they'll make it through to the next sunrise.

*Seventy-two hours for night actions.*


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## Negrek (Nov 25, 2017)

*Re: [N1] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Another day, another murder. ASB Central's inhabitants are certainly hoping that some of their covert actions might save an innocent from the Mafia's cruel game, but it seems last night they failed again. This time it's Stryke who paid the price, left sprawled ignominiously on some nondescript side street, downed with a single bullet.

*Stryke is dead. He was Town.

Seventy-two hours for discussion.*


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## RedneckPhoenix (Nov 25, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.
I've got nothing. Anyone else?


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## M&F (Nov 25, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*

guess he was..........

struck down.


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## RedneckPhoenix (Nov 25, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*

How do you report a post


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## Keldeo (Nov 25, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*

I don't have anything today either, unfortunately. I am wondering why the mafia went after Stryke in particular, though, since he only had one post with one line saying he didn't have any information (and so did ZM, Flora, ILS, Butterfree, and Sandstone-Shadow) and there were definitely more active people yesterday. So either they know something we don't that made them want to kill him, or they were targeting him for no reason or just because he only posted once... neither of which really helps us figure out who they are, although it could give us a lead on which of us they're going to target tonight. It does look like they're not jumping to target Butterfree or Kratos after MF's comment yesterday, though, which is something to note. What do you all think?


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## Keldeo (Nov 25, 2017)

*Re: [N1] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Negrek said:


> *Seventy-hours for discussion.*


Also, Negrek, is this a typo for seventy-two or do we only have 70 hours?


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## Gzhoom (Nov 25, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*

I think the mafia might just be targeting low-activity townspeople on purpose so that we can't get a read on them. The less a person says, the smaller chance we have of determining a motive for the Mafia to kill them, and therein who the Mafia are.

Are there any information-gatherers that found anything out last night?


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## Negrek (Nov 25, 2017)

*Re: [N1] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Keldeo said:


> Also, Negrek, is this a typo for seventy-two or do we only have 70 hours?


lol, typo. It's seventy-two hours.


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## I liek Squirtles (Nov 25, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*

I guess I should step forward now. Last night I inspected Keldeo and they flipped Mafia. Night before that, I inspected Kratos and they flipped Town.


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## Keldeo (Nov 25, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Okay, I think there's something going on here. I don't doubt your claim but I'm innocent, and there's nothing in my role PM that says I get inspected as anything other than that??


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## Kratos Aurion (Nov 25, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Just wanna mention that another reason Stryke might've been targeted is because, as a quiet and relatively new person he's less likely to attract a protective role's attention than myself or Butterfree or Metallica Fanboy or someone, and therefore the kill is more likely to go through. So it's honestly not that surprising that someone quiet went down next, especially since it's not like anyone claimed anything yesterday that would've made them a higher-priority protection target than a well-known player. Although I suppose such a target has appeared now, eh?

So yeah, that was quick. Since there's nothing else to corroborate ILS's story (although I know he's telling the truth about me, obviously that's meaningless to the rest of you), I suppose standard procedure at this point would be the classic "lynch Keldeo, if they flip innocent then lynch ILS the next day", yes? The day's only just started so I'm willing to wait for a bit more discussion if any of our many other players have info to bring to the table, but that's what I'm leaning toward at the moment.


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## Sandstone-Shadow (Nov 25, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*



I liek Squirtles said:


> I guess I should step forward now. Last night I inspected Keldeo and they flipped Mafia. Night before that, I inspected Kratos and they flipped Town.





Keldeo said:


> Okay, I think there's something going on here. I don't doubt your claim but I'm innocent, and there's nothing in my role PM that says I get inspected as anything other than that??


Woah now we got something to work off of, don't we?! Keldeo, how can you not doubt ILS but also claim to be innocent? Also, what do you mean with that part about the inspection? I'm suspicious.


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## Sandstone-Shadow (Nov 25, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*

(Whoops Kratos kinda said the same thing as me but you post-ninja-d me, Kratos (also said it more elegantly))


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## Sandstone-Shadow (Nov 25, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Also, on this whole "not targeting big name/old member" thing - I could see that being a coincidence. As far as I can tell, some of our newer members have been more active than some older members lately (not an accusation or anything, please no one be offended), so if the mafia is/are newer members, maybe that wouldn't even be a factor. Just an afterthought musing.

(By the way, if one of the Town is killed and has a specific role, we will find out that specific role when they die, right? We won't forever have to guess if Superbird or Stryke or whoever comes next had an additional role?)


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## Negrek (Nov 25, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Sandstone-Shadow said:


> (By the way, if one of the Town is killed and has a specific role, we will find out that specific role when they die, right? We won't forever have to guess if Superbird or Stryke or whoever comes next had an additional role?)


No. Player roles are revealed at the end of the game, so you won't be forever guessing, but only a player's alignment is revealed upon their death.


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## Keldeo (Nov 25, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Sandstone-Shadow said:


> Woah now we got something to work off of, don't we?! Keldeo, how can you not doubt ILS but also claim to be innocent? Also, what do you mean with that part about the inspection? I'm suspicious.


I don't doubt ILS's claim because a mafia has absolutely no reason to fake being a cop this early in the game - they would open themself up to a counterclaim from the real cop, or at the very least be lynched right after the person they're claiming to be guilty is found to be innocent. At this point in the game, the mafia are probably laying low and trying not to draw attention to themselves.

I'm saying that since I'm innocent but not, to my knowledge, a miller (a role that's innocent but that a cop gets a guilty result from, which would be pretty bastard to hide) I think his results were somehow compromised. Whether that's because of some sort of result faker or framer on the mafia who made me appear to be mafia, or a town role that changed ILS's action to target someone else for some reason, I don't know, and so I'm pretty much waiting for anyone who could shed light on what was going on. A lot of people haven't even been online since ILS's post.


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## Butterfree (Nov 25, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Well, going for *Keldeo* and then ILS if Keldeo flips town seems the obvious course of action for now, unless someone has pertinent information (performing some kind of swapping or redirection on Keldeo and/or ILS, for instance).


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## Butterfree (Nov 25, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*

(There might also be a mafia redirector who struck lucky, and then presumably is not coming forward, or Stryke could have performed the redirection. So it's possible they're both innocent even if nobody admits to redirecting. But it's the best we have, I believe.)


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## Eifie (Nov 25, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Cool, I get to be useful! Friendly neighbourhood redirector here; I couldn't post right away after ILS did because I had to ask Negrek first if she allows inforoles to be redirected (I know some people don't), and the answer was yes, she does. I redirected ILS's action to *Flora* last night.

(The first night I redirected ZM to Flora. I've been redirecting everyone to Flora because she's not really a prime mafia target, so if she turned up dead one morning I could be pretty certain that whoever I targeted was probably a bad guy.)


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## RedneckPhoenix (Nov 25, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Hmm. How... interesting. I jailed Flora N0.


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## Kratos Aurion (Nov 25, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Hm, that's interesting. So if both Eifie and ILS are telling the truth, that would make Flora the mafioso. Jailing Flora N0 doesn't necessarily dispute that, either; the mafia kill could be factional, or could belong to/have been performed by someone other than Flora.


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## RedneckPhoenix (Nov 25, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*

But this jailer role deflects all actions, not just killing. Someone's bein' sneaky.


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## RedneckPhoenix (Nov 25, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*

(Also ILS targetted Keldeo N1 and Kratos N0, if I read that right.)


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## Eifie (Nov 25, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*



RedneckPhoenix said:


> But this jailer role deflects all actions, not just killing. Someone's bein' sneaky.


Not sure what you're saying? It looks like my redirecting to Flora that night just had (basically)* no effect, if you're telling the truth.

*I imagine ZM's action, if he had one, just disappeared into the ether.


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## RedneckPhoenix (Nov 25, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*

I jailed Flora N0. ILS inspected Keldeo N1. I don't know where I got mixed up but this is what I understand.

I'm not comfortable making choices without hearing what Flora has to say.


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## Butterfree (Nov 25, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Ohhhkay. Switching to *Flora*, then, with Eifie as our new suspicious-if-Flora's-innocent.


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## Flora (Nov 25, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Hmm. Well. this is a biiiiit of a pickle.

I don't have a night action, so Keith jailing me shouldn't have affected anything really. Unless that keeps things from happening to me? I don't play with jailers often *shrug*

I think I got the short end of the stick re: roles here, I'm p sure I'm just a vanilla townie who got a particularly bastardy "hey you're secretly a miller!" thing, ugh


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## I liek Squirtles (Nov 25, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*

My vote's for *Flora*.


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## RedneckPhoenix (Nov 25, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*

I don't think Kratos or Flora are Mafia Don; I jailed them and people died on both nights. That's not to say they're not goons, but I think we can put this info on the back burner for a bit.


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## RedneckPhoenix (Nov 25, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*

*Abstain.*


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## M&F (Nov 25, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Well, I guess wishes do ever come true for the crowd that wants night action-powered information, eh? Although it's regrettable that this took two earlygame roleclaims to happen and we also have an additional one out there. It's way too much good information for the mafia to have at this point.

It's a good thing I don't put much stock into *Flora*'s roleclaim at all and a loss of numbers serves them worse than a gain of information, usually.

Of course, if Flora is actually telling the truth -- and that's what we should be finding out soon -- then some of the roleclaims we have on our hands are most likely preposterous, and thus, not useful information for the mafia... Town takes the lead either way, is what this sounds like.


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## Sandstone-Shadow (Nov 25, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*

What does the jailor role do - prevent any actions from occurring to that person? Does that include killing, inspecting, doctoring, etc?

I'm going to vote *Flora* unless other info arises.


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## Eifie (Nov 25, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Sandstone-Shadow said:


> What does the jailor role do - prevent any actions from occurring to that person? Does that include killing, inspecting, doctoring, etc?
> 
> I'm going to vote *Flora* unless other info arises.


Jailer is like combined doctor and roleblocker. So it shouldn't prevent someone from being inspected, but it will stop them from being killed and healed (not that the latter matters, except that I guess it would prevent healer clash as well).


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## RedneckPhoenix (Nov 25, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Not going to quote but it's specified that mine blocks any actions.


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## M&F (Nov 26, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Yes, the usual jailer normally prevents all night actions _to_ or _from_ a player. I think some venues actually use other terminology when they mean a healer+roleblocker and not a jailer (iirc I've seen "nurse" floating around as that designator, although it's...... kind of a strange idea to call it that?). It's also somewhat common for jailers to gain temporary night communications with whoever they're jailing, but that seems like more of a hassle to set up than anything strategically interesting.


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## Eifie (Nov 26, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Yeah, sorry, I realized after that calling it a doctor + roleblocker was wrong. Does jailing usually have any effect on inspections, though?


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## Kratos Aurion (Nov 26, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Right, but you jailing Flora on N0 shouldn't mean anything for the current situation. It just means that if ZM (who was the person she targeted, not Flora) used an action on N0, his action didn't take effect. How does that affect Eifie redirecting ILS to Flora on N1, or affect ILS's result if he was redirected to her? Can you jailkeep someone for multiple nights in a row/does the effect last multiple nights in a row?

My earlier point was that your jailing Flora wouldn't necessarily have prevented the kill; that's what I thought you were talking about when you made that claim (that Flora possibly wasn't mafia because a kill still happened that night), so if that wasn't what you meant then sorry for misunderstanding!

Hm... I guess I'll go ahead and vote for *Flora* for now, and then yeah, we can look at Eifie a little more closely the next day if not (or Keldeo, or ILS; oh, my, so many potential options!).


----------



## Kratos Aurion (Nov 26, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Okay, ninja'd a little; I was replying to RedneckPhoenix there.


----------



## Keldeo (Nov 26, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*



RedneckPhoenix said:


> I don't think Kratos or Flora are Mafia Don; I jailed them and people died on both nights. That's not to say they're not goons, but I think we can put this info on the back burner for a bit.


It seems pretty clear-cut to me. The only way this all makes sense is if *Flora*’s a mafia goon - there’s pretty damning evidence against her, and delaying action on that information would just be letting mafia walk free.

Based on what everyone’s said, I think this is what has happened:
n0, the mafia kill Superbird, ILS inspects Kratos and gets town. Eifie redirects ZM’s action to Flora, who you jailed; depending on how the redirector/jailor interaction shakes out, either ZM is redirected to a protected target and his action doesn’t work, or Eifie’s redirection doesn’t work and ZM’s action goes through as normal. 
n1, the mafia kill Stryke, you jail Kratos, and ILS inspects me, but his action is redirected to Flora. He gets a guilty result, meaning it’s pretty clear that Flora is mafia or an uninformed miller (which I highly doubt.) You jailing Flora n0 doesn’t have any bearing on this night’s results, and I’ve never seen a mafia kill where if you roleblock one mafia, it doesn’t go through, so it doesn’t make sense to say that just because the mafia killed someone n0, when you jailed Flora, she absolutely can’t be mafia.


----------



## M&F (Nov 26, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Keldeo said:


> I’ve never seen a mafia kill where if you roleblock one mafia, it doesn’t go through, so it doesn’t make sense to say that just because the mafia killed someone n0, when you jailed Flora, she absolutely can’t be mafia.


I mean, it normally _is_ possible to stop a mafia kill by roleblocking, but you'd have to target the don (or the mafiosx who got sent) specifically, so it's possible for a mafia-aligned player to be roleblocked while a kill still happens.

RedneckPhoenix's mentioned something to the effect of wanting to focus on catching the don right now, but a) there's no reason not to lynch mafia when it's, by all appearances, right there in front of us, and b) Flora's alignment flip is useful information that will most likely help us catch the don on the long run.


----------



## Keldeo (Nov 26, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Metallica Fanboy said:


> I mean, it normally _is_ possible to stop a mafia kill by roleblocking, but you'd have to target the don (or the mafiosx who got sent) specifically, so it's possible for a mafia-aligned player to be roleblocked while a kill still happens.


Yeah, that’s what I mean - sorry, posting on mobile is a pain. A situation where the mafia’s kill doesn’t go thru when the mafia roleblocked isn’t the mafia sending in the kill isn’t something I’ve personally encountered or something I’d ever put in a game as GM.


----------



## RedneckPhoenix (Nov 26, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Keldeo said:


> n1, the mafia kill Stryke, you jail Kratos, .


I jailed MF but everything else is correct.
(Actually i jailed Negrek but then i picked someone else)


----------



## RedneckPhoenix (Nov 26, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Also, I said Flora is definitely not the don but might or might not be the goon.


----------



## Keldeo (Nov 26, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*



RedneckPhoenix said:


> I jailed MF but everything else is correct.
> (Actually i jailed Negrek but then i picked someone else)


Uh, what? You said in the post I just quoted that you jailed Kratos and Flora, and there’ve only been two nights so far?


----------



## Kratos Aurion (Nov 26, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*



RedneckPhoenix said:


> I don't think Kratos or Flora are Mafia Don; I jailed them and people died on both nights. That's not to say they're not goons, but I think we can put this info on the back burner for a bit.


You did mention me here, though. I'm assuming that means you made a mistake when you said this?


----------



## Keldeo (Nov 26, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Also, even if Flora isn’t the don, the options here given the night’s results are (1) she’s a goon, (2) she’s an uninformed miller, which I think is /way/ too bastardy for the supposedly simple setup of this game, or (3) someone in the chain of claims here is lying, which, as people’ve said, we can and should investigate tomorrow if Flora does flip innocent. The priority here is getting someone who is very likely mafia.


----------



## RedneckPhoenix (Nov 26, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Kratos Aurion said:


> You did mention me here, though. I'm assuming that means you made a mistake when you said this?


...yes.
...
...
...
...i was cleaning alright.


----------



## Keldeo (Nov 26, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Alright, that makes sense.

Now that I'm actually on a laptop, here's an updated list of everything people have said so far, for completeness's sake:


Zero Moment: Redirected to Flora by Eifie n0 (or not, depending on how the jailed/redirected interaction works).
Gzhoom
RedneckPhoenix: Claims jailor (blocks all actions to/from his target), targeted Flora n0 and MF n1.
Flora: Claims vanilla townie who is secretly a miller. Jailed by RedneckPhoenix n0. ZM's action might or might not have been redirected to her n0. ILS's action was redirected to her n1, with result Mafia.
Cynder
Metallica Fanboy: Jailed by RedneckPhoenix n1.
Superbird: Town. Killed (presumably by mafia) n0.
Butterfree
Eifie: Claims redirector, redirected ZM to Flora n0 and ILS to Flora n1.
Stryke: Town. Killed (presumably by mafia) n1.
I liek Squirtles: Claims cop, targeted Kratos n0 (result: town) and Keldeo n1 (result: mafia). Redirected to Flora by Eifie n1.
Keldeo: Inspected by ILS n1 with result Mafia, but his action was redirected to Flora by Eifie that night.
Kratos Aurion: Inspected by ILS n0 with result Town.
Sandstone-Shadow


----------



## Sandstone-Shadow (Nov 26, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Ah that's super useful Keldeo, thanks for typing that up!


----------



## RedneckPhoenix (Nov 26, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*

yeah thanks


----------



## Zero Moment (Nov 26, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*

...Damn, all this happened during my shift?
So far, the evidence points to *Flora*. Hopefully we catch a big one today.


----------



## Gzhoom (Nov 26, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*

I’m gonna be honest and say that this is a lot to follow as a new player, but as far as I can tell, *Flora* seems like the best target for today.


----------



## Negrek (Nov 28, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*

The discussion today is much more heated, thanks to the appearance on the scene of a cop with some hot info--or at least, he says he's a cop. In the atmosphere of paranoia that's gripped the town recently, really no trusting him. After a dramatic series of twists and turns, the people finally have a suspect: Flora, normally a quiet individual, but as everyone knows, quiet can be dangerous.

Flora holds her head high as she's led up to the gallows, smirking around at her executioners. "Idiots. You think you have us now? You have no idea how far you are from the truth..."

*Flora is dead. She was Mafia.

Seventy-two hours for night actions.**

(( * I'm going to be at an eco reserve for the next three nights, and although there's supposed to be wi-fi, I'm dubious of the degree to which it will actually work. I'll get the next day up on time if possible, but if I have connectivity issues it'll come a day or two late, probably Friday/Saturday in your time zone. Sorry for the delay, but we should be back on a normal schedule after that. Wish me luck looking for wild kiwis! ))


----------



## Negrek (Dec 1, 2017)

*Re: [N2] ASB Halloween Mafia*

After another turbulent night--of waiting breathless by the door with a baseball bat, for those townsfolk who didn't venture out--a rather tired and frazzled group gathers in ASB Central. It's no surprise that, despite their hopes, one person is notably missing. When you make yourself known to the Mafia... you can't expect to last for long.

*RedneckPhoenix is dead. He was Town.

Seventy-two hours for discussion.*


----------



## Sandstone-Shadow (Dec 1, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Well, that's not quite what I had suspected. I suppose jailor could still be a dangerous role to the mafia, if it can prevent their kills from going through, but it didn't seem like the most directly threatening role - if anything, because of its "blocks all actions" vagueness, it makes a good chunk of mud to throw in the water to hide the killers swimming underneath.


----------



## Sandstone-Shadow (Dec 1, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Eifie, ILS, I'm curious who the two of you redirected/inspected last night.


----------



## Keldeo (Dec 1, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Like the flavor text says, I guess RedneckPhoenix was killed just because he had claimed, since ILS would be the more likely target for any doctors? It's good he had the chance to say who he targeted before he died, at least, so we're not in the dark about his role, but Flora didn't say much of anything that could connect her to anyone...

Here's an updated version of the list based on the night. ILS/Eifie, who did you target last night? And does anyone else have information we can act on today (especially if anyone got roleblocked, which could tell us who RedneckPhoenix targeted last night)?


Zero Moment: Redirected to Flora by Eifie n0 (or not, depending on how the jailed/redirected interaction works).
Gzhoom
RedneckPhoenix: Town. Killed (presumably by mafia) n2. Claims jailor (blocks all actions to/from his target), targeted Flora n0 and MF n1.
Flora: Mafia (probably goon based on n0), lynched d2. Claims vanilla townie who is secretly a miller. Jailed by RedneckPhoenix n0. ZM's action might or might not have been redirected to her n0. ILS's action was redirected to her n1, with result Mafia.
Cynder
Metallica Fanboy: Jailed by RedneckPhoenix n1.
Superbird: Town. Killed (presumably by mafia) n0.
Butterfree
Eifie: Claims redirector, redirected ZM to Flora n0 and ILS to Flora n1.
Stryke: Town. Killed (presumably by mafia) n1.
I liek Squirtles: Claims cop, targeted Kratos n0 (result: town) and Keldeo n1 (result: mafia). Redirected to Flora by Eifie n1.
Keldeo: Inspected by ILS n1 with result Mafia, but his action was redirected to Flora by Eifie that night.
Kratos Aurion: Inspected by ILS n0 with result Town.
Sandstone-Shadow


----------



## Keldeo (Dec 1, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Also, reading back through the thread, it looks like everyone voted for Flora yesterday except Flora (obviously), RedneckPhoenix, and Cynder, who didn't post at all. Was there a particular reason for that, Cynder?


----------



## Sandstone-Shadow (Dec 1, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*

I'm still a little confused about what happened on N0. Not sure if it really matters or not, but maybe could poke holes in someone's argument? N0, RedneckPhoenix claimed to jail Flora, which wouldn't affect the mafia's kill if Flora was a goon, but it would have prevented the kill if Flora was the don? Is there any other story that could have led to the same situation? What if Flora was the don and a vigilante killed someone N0? The presence of a vigilante seems unlikely given that we only have one kill N1 and N2 - unless ZM was a vigilante and targeted Superbird, but ZM was redirected by Eifie to Flora N0, so. I think you're right, Keldeo, and Flora was a goon.


----------



## Cynder (Dec 1, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*

I did not have anything useful to contribute to the conversation at that point. My actions so far have been useless.


----------



## I liek Squirtles (Dec 1, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*

I investigated RedneckPhoenix last night :(


----------



## Eifie (Dec 1, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*

I redirected SS to Cynder.



Sandstone-Shadow said:


> I'm still a little confused about what happened on N0. Not sure if it really matters or not, but maybe could poke holes in someone's argument? N0, RedneckPhoenix claimed to jail Flora, which wouldn't affect the mafia's kill if Flora was a goon, but it would have prevented the kill if Flora was the don? Is there any other story that could have led to the same situation? What if Flora was the don and a vigilante killed someone N0? The presence of a vigilante seems unlikely given that we only have one kill N1 and N2 - unless ZM was a vigilante and targeted Superbird, but ZM was redirected by Eifie to Flora N0, so. I think you're right, Keldeo, and Flora was a goon.


There are pretty much always multiple stories that could lead to a certain death situation, with most of them being pretty unlikely. imo it's not really worth considering that maybe we could have had a vigilante that for some reason decided to actually target Superbird on n0, especially because I don't see why it really matters whether Flora was don or goon. (Also, I think maybe you meant to talk about Stryke instead of ZM? ZM is still alive.)


----------



## Gzhoom (Dec 1, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Eifie said:


> I redirected SS to Cynder.


Time for my role, then. Once a night, I can switch the consequences of two players. Last night, I did this to SS and ILS. If I understand my role correctly, that means that the end result was you redirecting ILS’s action, if any, to Cynder.


----------



## Zero Moment (Dec 1, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Huh. Looks like we have both a Redirector and a Deflector this game. Looks like things are gonna be a bit fucky during the nights.


----------



## Sandstone-Shadow (Dec 1, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*



			
				Eifie said:
			
		

> There are pretty much always multiple stories that could lead to a certain death situation, with most of them being pretty unlikely. imo it's not really worth considering that maybe we could have had a vigilante that for some reason decided to actually target Superbird on n0, especially because I don't see why it really matters whether Flora was don or goon. (Also, I think maybe you meant to talk about Stryke instead of ZM? ZM is still alive.)


Oh, yeah I think you're right and I meant to talk about Superbird or Stryke. The comment "ZM's N0 action disappeared into the ether" keeps making me think ZM died on N0, but that's not right. And yeah, I guess it doesn't matter if Flora was a don or goon. 



I liek Squirtles said:


> I investigated RedneckPhoenix last night :(





Eifie said:


> I redirected SS to Cynder.





Gzhoom said:


> Time for my role, then. Once a night, I can switch the consequences of two players. Last night, I did this to SS and ILS. If I understand my role correctly, that means that the end result was you redirecting ILS’s action, if any, to Cynder.


First off, ILS, what did you get from your investigation? I'm assuming your action resulted in town, which would be consistent with Negrek's post, otherwise you would have threw up a flag. Can you confirm? 

Secondly, is there a particular order of operations for Eifie's and Gzhoom's actions? I'm not saying for now whether or not I have a night action, but if Gzhoom's action happens first, then ILS's target would be my original hypothetical target, but if Eifie's happens first, then ILS's target would be Cynder. Right? 

Gzhoom goes first: 
ILS -> RedneckPhoenix -(Gzhoom switches me and ILS)> my potential target -(Eifie redirects me to Cynder)> my potential target
Me -> my potential target -(Gzhoom switches me and ILS)> RedneckPhoenix -(Eifie redirects me to Cynder)> Cynder

Eifie goes first: 
ILS -> RedneckPhoenix -(Eifie redirects me to Cynder)> RedneckPhoenix -(Gzhoom switches me and ILS)> Cynder
Me -> my potential target -(Eifie redirects me to Cynder)> Cynder -(Gzhoom switches me and ILS)> RedneckPhoenix

Is that right? Or am I overthinking this?


----------



## Eifie (Dec 1, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Gzhoom said:


> Time for my role, then. Once a night, I can switch the consequences of two players. Last night, I did this to SS and ILS. If I understand my role correctly, that means that the end result was you redirecting ILS’s action, if any, to Cynder.


Does your role have "bus driver" in it? Just want to make sure, because "consequences" could mean different things.



Sandstone-Shadow said:


> Secondly, is there a particular order of operations for Eifie's and Gzhoom's actions? I'm not saying for now whether or not I have a night action, but if Gzhoom's action happens first, then ILS's target would be my original hypothetical target, but if Eifie's happens first, then ILS's target would be Cynder. Right?
> 
> Gzhoom goes first:
> ILS -> RedneckPhoenix -(Gzhoom switches me and ILS)> my potential target -(Eifie redirects me to Cynder)> my potential target
> ...


I think both of those are the right results in each scenario. If Gzhoom's role PM does talk about "consequences", I think the second scenario is more likely. We could possibly just ask Negrek about precedence.

Gzhoom, what were your actions the first two nights? I'm assuming they were nothing that possibly could have interfered with an investigation? If your role is actually bus driver, you could probably swap investigation targets.


----------



## Sandstone-Shadow (Dec 1, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Eifie said:


> I think both of those are the right results in each scenario. If Gzhoom's role PM does talk about "consequences", I think the second scenario is more likely. We could possibly just ask Negrek about precedence.


Negreeeeeek please advise? :D


----------



## Eifie (Dec 1, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*

By the way, I should mention that I'm finding the presence of two redirecting roles a little bit fishy. I think Gzhoom's new so I wouldn't really expect him to be lying, but I just wanted to throw that out there instead of forgetting the thought completely.

Of course, Negrek could just want to make the game more interesting and less like, straightforward "everyone does their night action and reports back and it's all easy", etc.


----------



## Cynder (Dec 1, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*

I guess my action did have an effect last night, which throws a wrench into your nice list. I am a roleblocker, and I blocked Gzhoom on N2.


----------



## M&F (Dec 1, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*

I'm not sure I understand this wording of "switching the consequences", but I'd assume that it's about switching out who gets targeted by night actions -- id est, bus driving, which is a pretty standard role.

If Ghzoom is, in fact, a bus driver, then the targets of ILS and Sandstone-Shadow's actions (if any) are not directly affected, but Eifie targets ILS instead of Sandstone-Shadow, redirecting his action to Cynder. This is the likeliest resolution, assuming that Negrek is running a problem-solution oriented night action resolution. If Negrek is running a fixed-priority resolution, then it depends on whether bus drivers have the priority over redirectors (which gives us the same scenario) or the opposite (which results in ILS investigating RedneckPhoenix as stated and Sandstone-Shadow's action, if any, targeting Cynder in lieu of the original target, if any).

To sum it up, the two possible conclusions:
-Cynder is innocent and Sandstone-Shadow's hypothetical action has not been redirected (likeliest)
-Sandstone-Shadow's hypothetical action has been redirected to Cynder, if it exists, and ILS's investigative result is still irrelevant

This is, of course, assuming all players involved have been honest about their night actions so far. ILS and Eifie aren't exceedingly likely to be running any anti-town gamuts, as their combined info just led to an earlygame mafia lynch in the previous day, and Sandstone-Shadow hasn't really provided information so far, so her end of it can't be considered honest or dishonest unless she's omitting something important. Still, there's no reason for or against taking Ghzoom's claim at face value -- and for that matter, no reason to assume he's town, since mafia-aligned bus drivers are at least as standard as town-aligned ones if not moreso. (his info does potentially clear a player, which is useful, but somewhat low-consequence for a mafiosx attempting to build rapport via a technically honest roleclaim).

More to the point -- 10 players live, of which, most likely, 2~3 are mafia. If we assume that ILS, Eifie, and Cynder are all clear, then we only have another 4~5 (out of 7) players to eliminate before we can we make a reliable lynch by elimination.


----------



## M&F (Dec 1, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*

bagh, the ninjas. time to recalibrate for additional info/discussion


----------



## Cynder (Dec 1, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*

I also blocked MF on N0, and no one on N1.


----------



## Eifie (Dec 1, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Metallica Fanboy said:


> Still, there's no reason for or against taking Ghzoom's claim at face value -- and for that matter, no reason to assume he's town, since mafia-aligned bus drivers are at least as standard as town-aligned ones if not moreso.


Somewhat what I was thinking when I made the previous post. His claim would clear Cynder, so that would be a motive. Now that we also have a roleblocker claim, I no longer know what to think about all these blocking/redirecting night roles (redirector, jailer, bus driver, roleblocker) running around.

It might be of note that Gzhoom's and Cynder's claims don't really have much synergy as a like, combined mafia fakeclaim thing, so the whole claiming to clear Cynder thing is now seeming less likely.


----------



## Sandstone-Shadow (Dec 1, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Metallica Fanboy said:


> I'm not sure I understand this wording of "switching the consequences", but I'd assume that it's about switching out who gets targeted by night actions -- id est, bus driving, which is a pretty standard role.
> 
> If Ghzoom is, in fact, a bus driver, then the targets of ILS and Sandstone-Shadow's actions (if any) are not directly affected, but Eifie targets ILS instead of Sandstone-Shadow, redirecting his action to Cynder. This is the likeliest resolution, assuming that Negrek is running a problem-solution oriented night action resolution. If Negrek is running a fixed-priority resolution, then it depends on whether bus drivers have the priority over redirectors (which gives us the same scenario) or the opposite (which results in ILS investigating RedneckPhoenix as stated and Sandstone-Shadow's action, if any, targeting Cynder in lieu of the original target, if any).
> 
> ...


Okay, I'd like to clarify this a bit first, to make sure I'm understanding it: 

If Gzhoom is being truthful, my hypothetical action stays the same and all actions targeted at ILS are now targeted to me, and vice versa? So Eifie targeting me gets redirected to ILS, so we'd have Gzhoom switching Eifie's action from me to ILS, and Eifie's action switching ILS to Cynder from RedneckPhoenix? Is that right? 

I would like to note that Cynder has said a few times something along the lines of "my actions haven't been successful so far," which seems like a realistic thing for a roleblocker to say, if they've been targeting people without noticeable actions.


----------



## Sandstone-Shadow (Dec 1, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*

I'll say I'm a little suspicious of both Gzhoom's and Cynder's claims right now, although I guess both their claims COULD be true? If Cynder's not lying, then what Gzhoom said doesn't change anything regardless of whether or not he was also lying (but it would reveal Gzhoom's role, perhaps).


----------



## M&F (Dec 2, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Cynder said:


> I also blocked MF on N0, and no one on N1.


Either *Cynder* is lying or one of you action-disruption monkeys targeted him N0. My night action demonstrably went through that night.

(as plausible as "one of you action-disruption monkeys targeted him N0" may seem with the appearance this setup is taking on, Eifie and RedneckPhoenix have already claimed otherwise and Cynder probably hasn't roleblocked himself)


----------



## Sandstone-Shadow (Dec 2, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*

What was your N0 action, MF? I don't recall.


----------



## Eifie (Dec 2, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Metallica Fanboy said:


> Either *Cynder* is lying or one of you action-disruption monkeys targeted him N0. My night action demonstrably went through that night.
> 
> (as plausible as "one of you action-disruption monkeys targeted him N0" may seem with the appearance this setup is taking on, Eifie and RedneckPhoenix have already claimed otherwise and Cynder probably hasn't roleblocked himself)


What about Gzhoom? We're still waiting on his previous actions.


----------



## Gzhoom (Dec 2, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Eifie said:


> What about Gzhoom? We're still waiting on his previous actions.


N0 I switched my consequences with SS in the blind hopes that SS would be mafia, they’d start off the game by killing one of their own, and we’d start off with the lead.

N1 I didn’t do anything because we didn’t get any info N0 and I didn’t want to make anything less clear or make anyone look like they were lying.

Last night, I was worried that ILS would get targeted because of how active they were, so I switched ILS and SS because SS made that error with names a while back and that was the best lead I had on someone who might be mafia.


----------



## Eifie (Dec 2, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*

MF, does that change anything?


----------



## Gzhoom (Dec 2, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Oh, two things to clarify:

1. Negrek informed me after N0 that he made an error in my info and that I shouldn’t be able to target myself.

2. I had SS confused with RedneckPhoenix, who was the actual person who got names mixed up. I targeted SS last night, but for a reason that wasn’t actually real in retrospect.


----------



## Sandstone-Shadow (Dec 2, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Ooookay. So, besides getting some clarification from MF on why he's suddenly accusing Cynder, I would still like to get some concrete clarification on how Gzhoom's role works. We've got multiple scenarios, and while they all KINDA lead to the same conclusion, I think the devil is in the details and it could be very important later.


----------



## Kratos Aurion (Dec 2, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Okay. A lot going on here, and I haven't read through all the action resolution stuff yet because I'm a bit distracted (will go back and read more carefully in a bit; not sure I'll have anything insightful to add about that though since it can really only be cleared up by Negrek sharing her action resolution order, which she may well not do until the game's over if she doesn't want to soft-confirm which roles are in the game), but I will say I'm tentatively siding with MF on the Cynder thing.

I'm the town gossip, or, uh... what else would it be called, a tracker? I think that's what I've seen called a tracker. I can tell who my target targeted on that night, anyway, so essentially what I do is confirm whether or not someone has a night action. Last night I targeted ZM, who did not use an action if he had one (doesn't mean he doesn't have one at all). N1 I targeted Gzhoom, who also did not use an action, which corroborates what he said about his nighttime activity above. Doesn't prove him innocent, but at least he's not lying about that, so he's low on my radar for now.

N0, however, I targeted MF (gotta know what you been up to after all this time, man!), and on that night I was told that he targeted Keldeo. No idea _what_ he did, of course, and I don't wanna speculate for fear of painting unnecessary targets, but since he himself has confirmed that he Did A Thing I think it's okay to say that now. Clearly he didn't make an active mafia kill, as Keldeo didn't die that night, someone else did, and the current known chain of redirections doesn't imply that he attempted to kill them but it bounced to Superbird. But he did _something_, which corroborates what he's saying and contradicts what Cynder's saying, and so to me that makes it look like Cynder's lying here.

I will add the wrinkle that I don't get confirmation of what my target's action did to their target, only that they targeted whoever they targeted. It's possible that Cynder could successfully roleblock MF but I would still see MF's _intent_ to target Keldeo even though it didn't actually resolve that way. Given that I know MF's not lying about being able to target someone, though, and that nothing bad seems to have happened to Keldeo as a result of said targeting, I'm inclined to believe him when he says he knows his action succeeded. Which means either something happened to Cynder's roleblock, or Cynder's lying about being a roleblocker or who he actually targeted.

I'm willing to hear other arguments and change my vote, especially if the action resolution resolution brings anything interesting to light or if Cynder has any useful clarifications, but for now my vote's on *Cynder*, on account of lyin' for any reason ain't helping town out very much right now.

(ILS clarifying the result he got might also be helpful here, although presumably it's "innocent" because I assume he would've spoken up if he'd gotten a "guilty" on RedneckPhoenix only to have the flip mark him as town. If ILS got "innocent" and his investigation was ultimately redirected to Cynder, though, I'm not sure what that means. I guess it's possible that I did only see intent to act rather than actual action, or maybe MF is actually scum/has a killing role and Keldeo was somehow able to bounce the attack targeted at them to Superbird on their own... but really, three redirecting roles? Seems a bit far-fetched.)


----------



## Cynder (Dec 2, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Well, I know who I targeted on N0 and I know what my action does, but none of you have any reason to trust me, so my lynching is inevitable. Either that, or the Mafia kills me. I'll vote for *MF*, because I have no idea how he managed to evade my block. Perhaps there is some sort of anti-roleblocker?


----------



## Eifie (Dec 2, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Well, with two people backing this up, I'm okay with going for *Cynder*.



Eifie said:


> Does your role have "bus driver" in it? Just want to make sure, because "consequences" could mean different things.
> 
> [...]
> 
> If Gzhoom's role PM does talk about "consequences", I think the second scenario is more likely.


Gzhoom, could you clarify these two things?


----------



## Sandstone-Shadow (Dec 2, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Sandstone-Shadow said:


> Secondly, is there a particular order of operations for Eifie's and Gzhoom's actions? I'm not saying for now whether or not I have a night action, but if Gzhoom's action happens first, then ILS's target would be my original hypothetical target, but if Eifie's happens first, then ILS's target would be Cynder. Right?
> 
> Gzhoom goes first:
> ILS -> RedneckPhoenix -(Gzhoom switches me and ILS)> my potential target -(Eifie redirects me to Cynder)> my potential target
> ...





Metallica Fanboy said:


> If Ghzoom is, in fact, a bus driver, then the targets of ILS and Sandstone-Shadow's actions (if any) are not directly affected, but Eifie targets ILS instead of Sandstone-Shadow, redirecting his action to Cynder. This is the likeliest resolution, assuming that Negrek is running a problem-solution oriented night action resolution. If Negrek is running a fixed-priority resolution, then it depends on whether bus drivers have the priority over redirectors (which gives us the same scenario) or the opposite (which results in ILS investigating RedneckPhoenix as stated and Sandstone-Shadow's action, if any, targeting Cynder in lieu of the original target, if any).
> 
> To sum it up, the two possible conclusions:
> -Cynder is innocent and Sandstone-Shadow's hypothetical action has not been redirected (likeliest)
> ...


I'm not yet convinced that Cynder is mafia. There are multiple situations above that lead to Cynder being innocent - in fact, I think both Eifie and MF have said that the most likely result of these situations is that Cynder is innocent. 

I'm also rather suspicious of the fact that MF says he successfully performed an N0 action but won't tell us what it is. Kratos tells us that MF targeted Keldeo, but with so much switching going on, I'm skeptical. Kratos makes a good argument, but it could also be a lie. 



RedneckPhoenix said:


> (Also ILS targetted Keldeo N1 and Kratos N0, if I read that right.)


If I'm reading this right, RedneckPhoenix actually never revealed who he targeted on N0 and N1 - this only mentions who ILS targeted, but as far as I can tell, everyone else took this as RedneckPhoenix's targets.


----------



## Eifie (Dec 2, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Sandstone-Shadow said:


> Kratos tells us that MF targeted Keldeo, but with so much switching going on, I'm skeptical.


We know who was switched, though. On N0 I redirected ZM to Flora, and Gzhoom swapped you and himself. So I don't think the presence of swapping roles should be a factor affecting whether or not we think this is plausible.




Sandstone-Shadow said:


> If I'm reading this right, RedneckPhoenix actually never revealed who he targeted on N0 and N1 - this only mentions who ILS targeted, but as far as I can tell, everyone else took this as RedneckPhoenix's targets.


He told us he targeted Flora N0, and Kratos N1.


----------



## Kratos Aurion (Dec 2, 2017)

*Re: [D2] ASB Halloween Mafia*



RedneckPhoenix said:


> I jailed MF but everything else is correct.
> (Actually i jailed Negrek but then i picked someone else)


Actually, RedneckPhoenix clarified that he jailed MF N1 and had made a mistake when he said he'd targeted me. As far as I'm aware all of my actions have gone through, although I don't know how different Negrek's response to me would be if I were blocked vs. my target just not acting. Maybe they'd look the same and I wouldn't know that the negative result meant someone had stopped my action. Still, though, pretty sure MF was RP's actual second target.

I agree that it's possible ILS got an innocent result that may have ultimately been from Cynder, which is why I'm more than happy to change my vote if someone else can clarify, but right now he's a more likely candidate than MF or someone else and I'd like to make sure we get something done rather than nothing! Holding up Cynder as investigated-as-innocent can only really be done if we know the action resolution order, and again, Negrek may well not confirm that until the game's over, so we can't count on it. It's also possible that he's a scum role with a misleading investigation result, for example. Some games I've seen even have the mafia don investigate innocent (they've got the connections to make themselves look clean, I suppose), although I don't think that's too common on TCoD so I'm not really banking on that specifically being the case. 

Keldeo may or may not want to clarify whether they know if MF could've done something harmful to them N0, but they may not have any idea, and they may also not want to reveal if they do know and whatever MF did was positive. I can certainly think of several reasons MF would want to be quiet about what his action was for his own safety while still being town. I'd give him a chance to respond first before being too suspicious about him not volunteering that info, and if he continues to be evasive about it, then yeah, maybe not coming out in full might look kinda shady. Not that worried about it right now, though.


----------



## Eifie (Dec 2, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Oh. I thought he said his mistake was saying he'd jailed MF. Also, this reminds me: ILS investigated Kratos as innocent N0.


----------



## Negrek (Dec 2, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Sandstone-Shadow said:


> Negreeeeeek please advise? :D


Night actions take place in a fixed order that proceeds the same every night. The order itself will be revealed at the end of the game along with role PM's, etc.


----------



## Sandstone-Shadow (Dec 2, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Okay, lots of things here. Thanks for the answer, Negrek. 

So assuming MF is right instead of me about how the bus driver works, Gzhoom basically cleared Cynder's name. Why would Cynder then say that he blocked Gzhoom? Cynder chose to speak up now instead of earlier - that seems weird. Why speak up against something that's confirming you innocent? 

I do think now that Cynder is the untruthful one here, but I'm wondering if he could be a miller or something that wins if we lynch him.


----------



## Keldeo (Dec 2, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*

To my knowledge, MF's action on me n0 was not harmful. I'll leave it to him if he thinks it's safe to say more.

I also find the action order stuff a little confusing, but I guess from Negrek's post we just won't have a definitive answer about the action order resolution until the game ends, so I don't think approaching the situation from that angle is productive. But it's not like that's the only factor in play here - we also have Kratos's results from n0 clearly contradicting Cynder's supposed action that night. 

I feel like Kratos's story is a lot easier to believe, because they're confirmed town by ILS. It seems like unless there's _another_ roleblocker who happened to stop Cynder's action n0, the only way the situation works out is either Cynder isn't telling the truth about something, which probably means they are mafia, or Kratos's role works such that targeting someone who was roleblocked still returns their original target/the person they were intending to target. Just in case that's the simple explanation for the contradiction here, could you check whether that happens/how your ability interacts with your target being roleblocked, Kratos? It's always possible Negrek can't reveal that information to you, but we can hope - I'm going to hold off on voting anyone until that's confirmed.


----------



## Kratos Aurion (Dec 2, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*

So I've tried to work through the action resolution stuff now that we have a bit more information, and I'll go into that in a minute, but let me just say first that sure, Keldeo, I can try to confirm with Negrek.

First of all, here are the statements we have about N2:

1. ILS says he investigated RedneckPhoenix (who flipped town). He didn't share his result, but we can assume it was "innocent" (i.e., not surprising given the flip).
2. Eifie says she redirected Sandstone-Shadow to Cynder.
3. Gzhoom (if we're understanding his role correctly) says he caused actions targeting ILS to target Sandstone-Shadow and vice-versa.
4. Cynder says he roleblocked Gzhoom.
5. Negrek says night action resolution is fixed-order and we're not getting any more info until the game ends. Based on SS's earlier attempts to puzzle this out, that means there are two possible scenarios.



> Gzhoom goes first:
> ILS -> RedneckPhoenix -(Gzhoom switches me and ILS)> my potential target -(Eifie redirects me to Cynder)> my potential target
> Me -> my potential target -(Gzhoom switches me and ILS)> RedneckPhoenix -(Eifie redirects me to Cynder)> Cynder
> 
> ...


However, these assumptions (and MF stating he agreed with them) were made before Cynder claimed to have roleblocked Gzhoom. So if Cynder is telling the truth, Gzhoom's action is irrelevant, and this is what would've happened in both scenarios:

Gzhoom goes first:
ILS -> RedneckPhoenix (nothing else happens because Gzhoom was blocked)
SS -> her potential target -(Gzhoom was blocked; Eifie redirects her to Cynder)> Cynder

Eifie goes first:
ILS -(nothing happens because Gzhoom was blocked)> RedneckPhoenix
SS -> her potential target -(Eifie redirects her to Cynder)> Cynder (nothing else happens because Gzhoom was blocked)

Either way, if Cynder is in fact a roleblocker and is not lying about targeting Gzhoom last night, ILS getting an "innocent" result no longer says anything about Cynder's alignment at all.

If Cynder is telling the truth, however, that also raises the question of how MF can claim his action was successful. The possibilities that allow for both of them being honest include:

1. Someone redirected Cynder's action to someone other than MF, or stopped his action outright. So far no alleged redirection roles have claimed to have monkeyed with Cynder on N0, though. We probably also don't have two straight roleblockers, so it's likely only RedneckPhoenix could've "blocked" him, and RP said he blocked Flora N0.
2. Someone protected MF from the block. The only evidence we have of such a role existing is RedneckPhoenix, who did claim to have targeted MF, but that targeting happened the night *after* N0 and also RedneckPhoenix probably would've stopped MF's action from happening anyway. There could be something else, though.
3. MF's action is unblockable for some reason.

Given the redirection monkeying and the general rarity of unblockable night roles, all of those seem kinda unlikely. None of them are impossible, though. There's also the "MF is lying about his action going through" option, but I know he did at least attempt a targeting action, so I'm still inclined to believe him.

If Cynder is lying about his role and/or targeting, then Gzhoom's action did go through and we're back to SS's original scenarios, which we can't meaningfully choose between because we don't know the action resolution order, and we _still_ don't know Cynder's alignment for certain.

Either way, ultimately I don't think it's safe to count on him being innocent—and really, vanilla roleblockers are mafia more often than not, as there are usually more town power roles than mafia power roles (or mafiosi at all) and a town roleblocker firing blindly has a higher chance of hindering town/uselessly hitting a vanilla townie than hindering mafia—so my vote stands.


----------



## Sandstone-Shadow (Dec 2, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*

To be clear, my initial attempts to puzzle things out assumed that Gzhoom's actions affected ILS's and my potential targets, not ILS and me - the way it's sounding now is that the bus driver wouldn't have affected our potential actions, but would have rather affected potential actions directed at me and him. So I think my initial scenarios might be wrong - if Gzhoom was telling the truth and was not roleblocked, Eifie would have meant to target me but actually targeted ILS, and ILS would have inspected Cynder and flipped innocent. I'm assuming there were no other actions directed at me and ILS last night (we haven't heard anything so far). The only way, it seems, that that wouldn't be the case is if Cynder is telling the truth. 

If Cynder is lying in any way that means Gzhoom didn't get roleblocked by him, then Cynder is innocent and probably some kind of alien/miller/role that _wants_ to be lynched by the town.

It may very well be that we have no other good alternative. But that's in the back of my mind.


----------



## M&F (Dec 2, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Well, well! Putting on the pressure works, eh? This discussion sure is looking a lot more interesting than when I'd last left it. I'll be sure to provide one of those lengthy analysis posts when it's less 3 AM and I have less research models homework in my brain.

I do have one quick question that may become relevant to this analysis, though: Kratos Aurion, is your N0 information "Metallica Fanboy targeted Keldeo", or is it simply "your target targeted Keldeo"? (I did target Keldeo N0, but a little disambiguation goes a long way when we apparently have as much action-disruption as we pretensely do.)


----------



## Kratos Aurion (Dec 2, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*

My information specifies the name of my target, so yes, it reads like "Metallica Fanboy targeted Keldeo". Doesn't mean I haven't been blocked or monkeyed, just like at the moment I don't know if there's a difference between "Name didn't target anyone" and "Name was unable to target anyone/carry out their action" (I did send the clarification request, though, so we'll see if that gets answered), but yeah, I do get a name.


----------



## Gzhoom (Dec 2, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Eifie said:


> Well, with two people backing this up, I'm okay with going for *Cynder*.
> 
> 
> 
> Gzhoom, could you clarify these two things?


My role doesn’t have “bus driver” anywhere. I’m a “prankster”, and the wording used by Negrek is that once a night I can swap the consequences of two players. Meaning that, for instance, if I were to target Butterfree and Cynder, and someone investigated Butterfree, they would see Cynder’s alignment instead (assuming that my action happens before the investigator’s, that is.)


----------



## I liek Squirtles (Dec 2, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Sandstone-Shadow said:


> First off, ILS, what did you get from your investigation? I'm assuming your action resulted in town, which would be consistent with Negrek's post, otherwise you would have threw up a flag. Can you confirm?


I got town.


----------



## Kratos Aurion (Dec 2, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Heard back from Negrek and was told two things:

-I see the final result of my target's action, not their intent, so if, for example, MF had originally targeted Keldeo but had bounced to Butterfree, I would see that he'd visited Butterfree.
-However, I don't see the difference between blocking and no action; they both read as no action.

Since I got a result on N0 rather than no action, that means that MF's action did in fact go through. So Cynder is not a roleblocker, _or_ he didn't target MF, _or_ he is a roleblocker who targeted MF but MF was able to avoid the block for whatever reason. Those are the options now.


----------



## Sandstone-Shadow (Dec 2, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Hmmm. Well, unless we discover more tonight, I guess I'm going with *Cynder*.


----------



## Butterfree (Dec 2, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Okay, yeah, *Cynder* seems like our best bet.


----------



## Keldeo (Dec 2, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Okay, given Kratos's results, *Cynder*'s looking really suspicious.



Kratos Aurion said:


> Since I got a result on N0 rather than no action, that means that MF's action did in fact go through. So Cynder is not a roleblocker, _or_ he didn't target MF, _or_ he is a roleblocker who targeted MF but MF was able to avoid the block for whatever reason. Those are the options now.


If he's lying about being a roleblocker, he's probably not a town role, because town has no reason to lie - even if he's an alien and wants us to lynch him, he would've been inspected by ILS last night and wouldn't inspect as innocent if he were activated. If he's a roleblocker lying about targeting MF n0, he's probably a mafia roleblocker, because again, a town roleblocker wouldn't have any reason to lie. And it's extremely unlikely that yet another redirecting/blocking role protected MF or blocked Cynder n0, given the high number of existing town roles that do that.


----------



## Eifie (Dec 2, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Keldeo said:


> If he's lying about being a roleblocker, he's probably not a town role, because town has no reason to lie - even if he's an alien and wants us to lynch him, he would've been inspected by ILS last night and wouldn't inspect as innocent if he were activated. If he's a roleblocker lying about targeting MF n0, he's probably a mafia roleblocker, because again, a town roleblocker wouldn't have any reason to lie. And it's extremely unlikely that yet another redirecting/blocking role protected MF or blocked Cynder n0, given the high number of existing town roles that do that.


I don't know why everyone is _so sure_ that Cynder actually was investigated last night — we don't actually know that. The whole "consequences" thing is making me think that it makes more sense for redirecting to happen before any swapping. Roleblocking and redirecting is more of like, an intermediate thing than a consequence, in my mind.

I suppose this'll be moot after we see the lynch result, anyway.


----------



## Eifie (Dec 3, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Eifie said:


> I don't know why everyone is _so sure_ that Cynder actually was investigated last night — we don't actually know that. The whole "consequences" thing is making me think that it makes more sense for redirecting to happen before any swapping. Roleblocking and redirecting is more of like, an intermediate thing than a consequence, in my mind.
> 
> I suppose this'll be moot after we see the lynch result, anyway.


Okay, I just noticed today that I missed like an entire page of posts and maybe this wasn't actually relevant, heheh.

Anyway: Gzhoom, do you think we should coordinate our actions for tonight so that we don't end up possibly interfering with each other again? ILS's target happened to be the person who died last night, so we're lucky that today the uncertainty about who actually got inspected didn't hugely screw things up, but it would be nice to make sure that doesn't happen again.

(I'm talking to Gzhoom, but of course I want everyone else's opinions on whether or not this is a good idea, too!)


----------



## Gzhoom (Dec 3, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*

I think that makes the most sense, yeah. Because I still don’t have much reason to switch anyone’s consequences tonight unless I can get an idea of who might be targeted by the Mafia.


----------



## Eifie (Dec 3, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Gzhoom said:


> I think that makes the most sense, yeah. Because I still don’t have much reason to switch anyone’s consequences tonight unless I can get an idea of who might be targeted by the Mafia.


Okay, here's my attempt to give the mafia as little information as possible and not make either of our actions basically useless tonight. Why don't you swap ILS with someone relatively low-profile (i.e.,  not posting all that much). That way if the mafia attempts to get a kill on ILS by trying to guess who you'll swap him with, they run the risk of guessing wrong and spending a kill on someone who's not all that active anyway. Meanwhile, ILS and I can target more active people without fear of weird stuff happening with our actions (hopefully).


----------



## Gzhoom (Dec 3, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*

That sounds like a great plan to me!


----------



## Negrek (Dec 5, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Discussion is heated today, mostly having to do with what people have been getting up to in the past few nights. It's all very confusing--just what is with all these people messing in their neighbors' business? There aren't a great many leads to go on, but at last a shaky near-consensus emerges: Cynder's story doesn't add up. He'll be the one to go.

Cynder doesn't resist--he just looks resigned. But in the end the townsfolk are horrified to discover that they've done away with their first innocent.

*Cynder is dead.He was Town.

Seventy-two hours for night actions.*

(( btw I have been running longer-than-normal phases because I wasn't sure whether people were going to have trouble getting together for discussion, etc., but in effect most night actions and day phase voting has gotten done within 48 hours anyway. Let me know if you would prefer a switch to more standard 48-hour phases. ))


----------



## Negrek (Dec 8, 2017)

*Re: [N3] ASB Halloween Mafia*

The town is especially grim tonight, with the murder of an innocent townsperson lingering over their heads. Many can't sleep, and some even take to the streets, dangerous though they are, in search of answers, maybe, or hoping they can do something, anything to prevent the Mafia from taking another life. Alas, all the town's best efforts fail, and when the morning comes they find another of their number cut down.  

*Kratos Aurion is dead. They were Town.

Seventy-two hours for discussion.*


----------



## Butterfree (Dec 8, 2017)

*Re: [D4] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Welp. At least ILS is alive and well! Any results?


----------



## I liek Squirtles (Dec 8, 2017)

*Re: [D4] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Gzhoom's town. That's all I have.


----------



## Eifie (Dec 9, 2017)

*Re: [D4] ASB Halloween Mafia*

I redirected Keldeo to SS.

Anyway... does no one care about Cynder flipping innocent? I mean, Kratos has now been again confirmed town with their death, so their information was probably good and we can conclude that Cynder was probably lying. One explanation could be that he was mafia roleblocker or something and just lying about targets for unknown reasons. But I have a more exciting guess that I've been waiting the past almost 72 hours to share!

What if Cynder was inactive alien? He chose to speak up about his role (and claimed to have blocked Gzhoom) in response to Gzhoom's action having the possibility of Cynder being inspected as innocent. Being inspected before being activated and having that result revealed is basically game over for the alien, because they are probably not going to be able to get lynched after that. Some of us were confused before because his roleclaim meant that he was not inspected as town after all, and why would he do that if he were lying the whole time, but I think it would all make sense if he was alien, right? I personally hope it is true because it is more exciting than mafia roleblocker or whatever.


----------



## Zero Moment (Dec 9, 2017)

*Re: [D4] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Man I have no clue what's been going on for the last two Days.
I had a feeling Cynder wasn't as fishy as they were made out to be, which is why I didn't vote the Day before.
Anyways, we have eight people left, we've lynched one of the Mafia already, so we probably have two members of the Mafia unaccounted for. If we have a mislynch and mafia kill tonight it'll be a 4v2, no lynch and kill is a 5v2, and a correct lynch plus kill would be a 5v1.


----------



## Sandstone-Shadow (Dec 9, 2017)

*Re: [D4] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Eifie said:


> I redirected Keldeo to SS.
> 
> Anyway... does no one care about Cynder flipping innocent? I mean, Kratos has now been again confirmed town with their death, so their information was probably good and we can conclude that Cynder was probably lying. One explanation could be that he was mafia roleblocker or something and just lying about targets for unknown reasons. But I have a more exciting guess that I've been waiting the past almost 72 hours to share!
> 
> What if Cynder was inactive alien? He chose to speak up about his role (and claimed to have blocked Gzhoom) in response to Gzhoom's action having the possibility of Cynder being inspected as innocent. Being inspected before being activated and having that result revealed is basically game over for the alien, because they are probably not going to be able to get lynched after that. Some of us were confused before because his roleclaim meant that he was not inspected as town after all, and why would he do that if he were lying the whole time, but I think it would all make sense if he was alien, right? I personally hope it is true because it is more exciting than mafia roleblocker or whatever.


If an activated alien is lynched, it's game over for town, right? Or do we not find out we lost until the end? If the game would have ended, then either Cynder wasn't alien or did it wrong? Is that consistent with what you're saying? 

Gzhoom, who did you switch last night? 

So far, we've got myself, Butterfree, ZM, MF, and Keldeo that haven't claimed a specific role (other than vanilla towny, which COULD be an easy lie, not saying it was) - at least as far as I can remember from previous discussion which I did not bother to double check before I composed that list.


----------



## Sandstone-Shadow (Dec 9, 2017)

*Re: [D4] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Also, mafia roleblocker would still flip town, right?


----------



## Eifie (Dec 9, 2017)

*Re: [D4] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Sandstone-Shadow said:


> If an activated alien is lynched, it's game over for town, right? Or do we not find out we lost until the end? If the game would have ended, then either Cynder wasn't alien or did it wrong? Is that consistent with what you're saying?


Yes, the game would end immediately if active alien was lynched. If inactive alien is lynched, it just dies and the game goes on.


----------



## Eifie (Dec 9, 2017)

*Re: [D4] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Sandstone-Shadow said:


> Also, mafia roleblocker would still flip town, right?


The kind I'm talking about would. There are different variants. The one I'm talking about flips and inspects innocent and doesn't know who the mafia are, but is still aligned with them. There's also just kind of a regular mafia with a roleblocking action, who talks with the other mafia and inspects and flips mafia.


----------



## Sandstone-Shadow (Dec 9, 2017)

*Re: [D4] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Alright so, Cynder definitely wasn't an activated alien. Any mafia motives to claiming that he roleblocked Gzhoom? Unless Cynder thought he really did get inspected (if Gzhoom told the truth) but actually WASN'T inspected (Gzhoom's role doesn't work how we thought it did). and wanted to be lynched because he thought he was activated???


----------



## Gzhoom (Dec 9, 2017)

*Re: [D4] ASB Halloween Mafia*

I ended up not switching anyone last night. I didn’t need to follow the plan, so much as I needed the mafia to think I would follow the plan. If they targeted a less active player in an attempt to get ILS, then by not doing anything I guaranteed they’d waste their kill on a less active townsperson, rather than giving them a chance to predict my switch and off ILS. I hope that’s okay, and that I didn’t ruin some secret caveat to the plan. This way just seemed safer but I couldn’t really tell you guys about it ahead of time or else it would be moot.


----------



## Eifie (Dec 9, 2017)

*Re: [D4] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Gzhoom said:


> I ended up not switching anyone last night. I didn’t need to follow the plan, so much as I needed the mafia to think I would follow the plan. If they targeted a less active player in an attempt to get ILS, then by not doing anything I guaranteed they’d waste their kill on a less active townsperson, rather than giving them a chance to predict my switch and off ILS. I hope that’s okay, and that I didn’t ruin some secret caveat to the plan. This way just seemed safer but I couldn’t really tell you guys about it ahead of time or else it would be moot.


Nope, that was a really good move on your part imo.


----------



## Sandstone-Shadow (Dec 9, 2017)

*Re: [D4] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Hey, nice work, Gzhoom. Now, the question is, was Kratos an attempt to guess the switch, or did the mafia ignore the plan to switch and choose Kratos anyway? They did claim a role and have been farly active, so maybe mafia wanted them anyway. 

Okay, Eifie, I'm more awake and reread the ideas about Cynder. You're saying that he was an inactivated alien, and basically was dealing with a "time's up" situation. Inspecting an inactive alien doesn't activate them (the assumption I made last night), but it would seal their fate. 

Sooo honestly, with the lack of any other useful information, I'd like to throw the spotlight on Butterfree and ZM, who both have been very quiet this whole game.


----------



## Butterfree (Dec 9, 2017)

*Re: [D4] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Gzhoom said:


> I ended up not switching anyone last night. I didn’t need to follow the plan, so much as I needed the mafia to think I would follow the plan. If they targeted a less active player in an attempt to get ILS, then by not doing anything I guaranteed they’d waste their kill on a less active townsperson, rather than giving them a chance to predict my switch and off ILS. I hope that’s okay, and that I didn’t ruin some secret caveat to the plan. This way just seemed safer but I couldn’t really tell you guys about it ahead of time or else it would be moot.


Yeah, that makes sense.

The main reason I've been quiet is that I keep coming in when most of the relevant discussion has already been had and there isn't much left to say. Like, I would have explained what Eifie was actually talking about there with the alien, except you seem to have just caught up with her train of thought, so nothing left to say there.

I can actually usefully roleclaim now, though, so here goes. I'm a doctor. I healed Sandstone-Shadow, then Kratos twice, then switched to Zero Moment last night (ouch) in the hope of striking lucky with the whole "swap ILS and someone quiet" plan. (I didn't want to target ILS in case there was a second doctor doing that and we'd overdose him.)

Tonight, I can heal ILS (and any second doctor that might be around goes for someone _else_), and Gzhoom can swap _me_ with someone else; if all goes well, mafia gets neither me nor ILS, or if they do get me, ILS at least lives to get another investigation in.

That's assuming you trust me, though, which I guess might be a hard sell; if I were mafia, that'd be one very convenient plan to clear the way for killing ILS, wouldn't it. Might mull over possible less risky alternatives later; I'd rather get this post in now before a bandwagon gets going.


----------



## Eifie (Dec 10, 2017)

*Re: [D4] ASB Halloween Mafia*

So, uh, anything from ZM?


----------



## Zero Moment (Dec 10, 2017)

*Re: [D4] ASB Halloween Mafia*

I can't shine any light onto the happenings of the nights: my role is passive, I don't have a night action of my own. Though, I think it wouldn't be wise to reveal my power just yet, as it's an inconvenience to the Mafia if they don't know it.


----------



## M&F (Dec 10, 2017)

*Re: [D4] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Butterfree said:


> I can actually usefully roleclaim now, though, so here goes. I'm a doctor. I healed Sandstone-Shadow, then Kratos twice, then switched to Zero Moment last night (ouch) in the hope of striking lucky with the whole "swap ILS and someone quiet" plan. (I didn't want to target ILS in case there was a second doctor doing that and we'd overdose him.)


Didn't you already roleclaim that one time on telegram when you were "hypothetically" asking about a rational way to curb the risks of healer clash?

... Er-hem! Anyways, my apologies for going quiet when we were in the middle of something important. Fun times, those were! Four assignments due the same day! Anyways, getting town lynched was unfortunate, but absolutely no town explanation for that lie/confusion has emerged, so I guess it's reasonable to assume that wasn't "town" any farther than the death flip.

We do need to lynch some actual mafia this Day, though... And, in a spectacularly rare moment, everyone appears to be active, so a whole lot of scrutinizing is in order.


----------



## Eifie (Dec 10, 2017)

*Re: [D4] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Zero Moment said:


> I can't shine any light onto the happenings of the nights: my role is passive, I don't have a night action of my own. Though, I think it wouldn't be wise to reveal my power just yet, as it's an inconvenience to the Mafia if they don't know it.


Ehhhhhh... this isn't really doing anything for me. I feel like it's mafia more often than not who do the thing like "hey, I have a role that's a lot worse for the mafia if I don't reveal it so I don't want to say anything yet but just trust me okay". We already know that you're not, like, granny, because Kratos, Butterfree and I have targeted you and lived, and I'm struggling to think of other roles that you'd really really want to hide from the mafia when suspicion is being cast on you (and we don't seem to have any nonstandard roles here).

We've got like 14 hours left in the day, and I've been waiting in vain for other reactions to your post, so given this and your general silence during the game besides some very generic comments, I'm going to vote *Zero Moment*.


----------



## Sandstone-Shadow (Dec 10, 2017)

*Re: [D4] ASB Halloween Mafia*

For similar reasons, I think I'll also vote *Zero Moment*.


----------



## Zero Moment (Dec 10, 2017)

*Re: [D4] ASB Halloween Mafia*

If you insist, I guess I'll have to make a full claim.

The flavortext in my role PM suggests most players are trainers, yes? I am a Zoroark, and my role is a variation of the Bomb.

When I am attacked in the night I attempt to retaliate against the attacker(s) (my role PM specifically mentions it works against multiple attackers; maybe there's a vigilante?). This retaliation isn't infallible though, it only has a 50% success rate the first time it triggers, which brings me to my secondary ability.

My Disguise essentially gives me a one-time Bulletproof, disrupting all kills made against me that night (again, it specifies that it works against multiple kills actions), but the shock of being attacked keeps me from going all out. Any attackers on later nights will find me undisguised and prepared to take them down with me.


I'd rather have had the Mafia stumble upon me accidentally, but with a pair of redirectors I think we can still make this work.


----------



## Zero Moment (Dec 10, 2017)

*Re: [D4] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Eifie said:


> (and we don't seem to have any nonstandard roles here)


Having not one but _two_ different types of active redirectors is very nonstandard, imo. Also, only a doc, a cop, a roleblocker, a jailer, and those two redirectors have claimed afair, which is six out of fourteen and not really a large enough sample to come to a conclusion like that.


----------



## M&F (Dec 11, 2017)

*Re: [D4] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Zero Moment said:


> Having not one but _two_ different types of active redirectors is very nonstandard, imo. Also, only a doc, a cop, a roleblocker, a jailer, and those two redirectors have claimed afair, which is six out of fourteen and not really a large enough sample to come to a conclusion like that.


If I recall correctly, Negrek has openly stated that this is a normal roles game, which may be what Eifie was referring to. Multiple redirectors is a slightly odd setup, but there are plenty of lopsided setups you can make by using nothing but normal roles.

But that's a whole lot of nitpicking; the tastier issue is the veracity of your roleclaim. On the one hand, you've offered it quasi-umprompted and knowing of a bomb usually helps mafia a lot more than it does town (which is what you said earlier when you softclaimed, but honestly, that softclaim was arguably _more_ anti-town, so it's not even as if the lynch pressure made this worse). On the other hand, the presence of all the redirection hax does make this claim a lot more useful for town, and makes lynching you a lot more costly if you're telling the truth (whereas normally a revealed bomb is a safe lynch as it's not useful to town anyway).

The flavor may or may not be a clue there. For my own part, my role PM doesn't give the role a flavor name (it's just the name of the role) but the subsequent flavor does imply "ASB participant". That said, a Zoroark mixed into the regular ASB people sounds a lot more to me like a mafia role than a Bomb, and a Bomb sounds to me like it could have bullion more intuitive flavors (and I can't say my flavor text was all that counterintuitive, for that matter). I realize this isn't really an issue that lends itself to a lot more discussion (backpedaling on a flavor claim is a dead giveaway so ZM's likeliest response to me bringing this up isn't alignment indicative), but it's worth mentioning since, from my GM experience, scum in this forum tend to try to pass themselves off as a town version of their actual role, specially wrt flavor.


----------



## Eifie (Dec 11, 2017)

*Re: [D4] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Zero Moment said:


> If you insist, I guess I'll have to make a full claim.
> 
> The flavortext in my role PM suggests most players are trainers, yes? I am a Zoroark, and my role is a variation of the Bomb.
> 
> ...


Disguise is Mimikyu's ability, not Zoroark's. Zoroark's ability is Illusion.

And also, does anyone else think this role sounds _way too OP_ to be town? It kind of sounds like a third-party role to me. If I'm getting this right: survives all kills the night of the first kill attempt (so more powerful than bulletproof), _and_ has a 50% chance for each attacker to kill back that night, _and_ becomes a regular bomb after that?

The sign-up thread says "This will be a simple game using standard roles," so this roleclaim is just kind of bizarre to me.


----------



## Zero Moment (Dec 11, 2017)

*Re: [D4] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Eifie said:


> Disguise is Mimikyu's ability, not Zoroark's. Zoroark's ability is Illusion.


I was using uppercase to put the word in emphasis, not naming the ability (which isn't directly named in my RPM, anyways).



> For my own part, my role PM doesn't give the role a flavor name (it's just the name of the role) but the subsequent flavor does imply "ASB participant".


Interestingly enough, I wasn't given a proper role name, I was labelled as a Zoroark and then given a description of what I do. I had to go look up the closest approximation to try to name it myself (and found the role of Bomb, then went and double checked that it was only attackers that came under fire and not just anyone who happened to be touching me that night)

As for the power of the Bulletproof, I'm guessing that either 1) that's just how Negrek tends to run the Bulletproof affix and the 'multiple attackers' bit is just included in all of their games, or 2) it's there specifically because we have multiple killers and they didn't want to try to figure out the pita that could be how multiple kills in one night interact with my role.


----------



## M&F (Dec 11, 2017)

*Re: [D4] ASB Halloween Mafia*

... I thought I'd read that ZM would be _un_prepared to perform additional counterattacks after the first go. An infinite use bomb that's guaranteed at least two explosions... in a setup that already has at least two protective roles running around... yeah, I'm very skeptical, even beyond the issue of this definitely not being a standard role. At best, ZM's misunderstanding his role PM; at worst, he's making this up in a bid to make himself seem too valuable to lynch.

As much as redirecting to a bomb would be a nice toy to play around with, I think we have enough toys that we can actually reasonably trust in this townsfolk playpen. *Zero Moment*


----------



## Negrek (Dec 11, 2017)

*Re: [D4] ASB Halloween Mafia*



> Didn't you already roleclaim that one time on telegram when you were "hypothetically" asking about a rational way to curb the risks of healer clash?


Please don't discuss the game outside the game thread unless your role specifically gives you that ability. The lack of communication between players who aren't granted the ability is kind of the point of the game, and it's also hella unfair to anyone who might not be aware of or able to participate in whatever non-thread space you're discussing it in to not be privy to any information that comes up in those sorts of discussion. If I hear about someone doing this, I will modkill them. If you witness someone doing this, please let me know so I can kill them. Thanks.

In any case, I'm pretty high on time zones right now and don't actually have any idea when the discussion phase was supposed to end. Since it looks like there's still the potential for discussion and fewer than half the players have voted, I'm going to gives *24 more hours* for discussion, at which point night will finally fall again!


----------



## M&F (Dec 11, 2017)

*Re: [D4] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Negrek said:


> Please don't discuss the game outside the game thread unless your role specifically gives you that ability. The lack of communication between players who aren't granted the ability is kind of the point of the game, and it's also hella unfair to anyone who might not be aware of or able to participate in whatever non-thread space you're discussing it in to not be privy to any information that comes up in those sorts of discussion. If I hear about someone doing this, I will modkill them. If you witness someone doing this, please let me know so I can kill them. Thanks.


That wasn't an actual game discussion folks were having, mind, just general mafia talk, which I am now retrospectively snarking at. Still, tone on the internet and all, the confusion is understandable.


----------



## Negrek (Dec 12, 2017)

*Re: [D4] ASB Halloween Mafia*

The number of leads appears to be shrinking, and there's a sort of nervous energy in the air as the townsfolk mutter to each other, trying to figure out what's going on. Finally, Zero Moment is accused, and despite his vigorous defense, he can't convince anyone of his innocence. A zoroark, in their town? Passing as a human? Preposterous.

Of course, when the scrum is finally over and Zero Moment lies dead upon the ground, his illusion evaporates to reveal the truth...

*Zero Moment is dead. He was a Pokémon.

Seventy-two hours for night actions.*


----------



## Butterfree (Dec 12, 2017)

*Re: [D4] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Negrek said:


> Please don't discuss the game outside the game thread unless your role specifically gives you that ability. The lack of communication between players who aren't granted the ability is kind of the point of the game, and it's also hella unfair to anyone who might not be aware of or able to participate in whatever non-thread space you're discussing it in to not be privy to any information that comes up in those sorts of discussion. If I hear about someone doing this, I will modkill them. If you witness someone doing this, please let me know so I can kill them. Thanks.


To clarify, I absolutely did not roleclaim or softclaim or attempt any sort of veiled "hint, hint, here's my role"; I went out of my way to state this had no relation to the current game and was just a game-theoretic problem I happened to be thinking about. No discussion pertaining to this game in any way took place, only a bit of theoretical musing on general mafia strategy.


----------



## Negrek (Dec 15, 2017)

*Re: [N4] ASB Halloween Mafia*

It's hard to say whether the results of yesterday's lynch are encouraging, alarming, or merely puzzling, but one way or another many of the townsfolk go to bed unsettled. It's an unsettling time, of course, and when they reconvene in the square the next day the same old dread hangs over them. Roll call proves surprising, though, a quick double-check is made, and--yes. Finally, some good news.

*No one has died.

Seventy-two hours for discussion.*


----------



## Sandstone-Shadow (Dec 15, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*

So, two possibilities: Butterfree was telling the truth and protected ILS, or the mafia didn't target ILS, or the mafia didn't target anyone.

Thoughts?


----------



## I liek Squirtles (Dec 15, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*

I got MF as town.


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## Keldeo (Dec 15, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*

So ZM was lying about being town - I guess this is one of the better outcomes for us, with eliminating a likely malicious third party yesterday and either no kill or a blocked kill last night. I’m guessing we’re probably at 5 town and 2 mafia remaining then?

Butterfree, Gzhoom, and Eifie, who did you all target last night? That should hopefully narrow down the possibilities SS mentioned, which’ll be useful for us to use as a basis to figure out the best suspects for today, or at the very least help us narrow down the list of who could be mafia by process of elimination.


----------



## Sandstone-Shadow (Dec 15, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Are Pokemon not considered town, then? I'm not sure how Pokemon roles work in mafia. Or can Pokemon roles be either?


----------



## Gzhoom (Dec 15, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*

I didn’t target anyone last night. I didn’t want to risk switching a successful block or anything.


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## Eifie (Dec 15, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Gzhoom said:


> I didn’t target anyone last night. I didn’t want to risk switching a successful block or anything.


Meanwhile, I didn't redirect anyone because I didn't want to interfere with you again...

Butterfree asked you to swap her and someone else so that we could protect both her and ILS, though. And if by "successful block" you mean a heal, swapping wouldn't actually have any effect on that. It would just mean that a different person would be both killed and healed and we would still have no one die. I'm finding it kind of fishy that you wouldn't act to keep a claimed doctor safe.

I'm really just considering this because at this point I think either the mafia is Keldeo and SS, or someone who has roleclaimed is lying. I also think that SS has been playing very town this entire game, so I'm more inclined to consider the second option. Gzhoom has been inspected innocent, right? He has also not acted for the past two nights. In a game of this size it's pretty likely to have something like a mafia roleblocker or mafia doctor, etc. (by which I mean a mafia version of an innocent role (or also terrorist) that inspects/flips innocent and doesn't know who the mafia are, and isn't known by the mafia, and in the future when I say "half-mafia" this is what I mean), and his behaviour seems consistent with a mafia-aligned bus driver. When the number of players gets a lot smaller, mafia bus driver would be afraid to act because they could end up just getting a mafia killed. It's kind of been nagging at me for ages that we have so many roleblocking/redirection roles and that a while ago MF said something about mafia bus drivers being at least as standard as innocent ones (I will assume he knows what he's talking about). I have made the dangerous mistake of assuming anyone who inspects innocent is town several times before, so I just wanted to bring this up!

And re: the first option: I do think Keldeo has been quieter than usual lately, although the post count disagrees with me somewhat. She also did not talk at all yesterday. Keldeo, do you have anything to say about this?


----------



## Sandstone-Shadow (Dec 15, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Gzhoom said:


> I didn’t target anyone last night. I didn’t want to risk switching a successful block or anything.





Eifie said:


> Butterfree asked you to swap her and someone else so that we could protect both her and ILS, though. And if by "successful block" you mean a heal, swapping wouldn't actually have any effect on that. It would just mean that a different person would be both killed and healed and we would still have no one die. I'm finding it kind of fishy that you wouldn't act to keep a claimed doctor safe.


To be fair, maybe Gzhoom didn't act as suggested to avoid mafia knowing what he would do. But if he _had_ swapped Butterfree with someone, Butterfree's heal would have still affected her original target - it just would have saved her from being targeted by anything. (The second sentence there is clarifying/confirming what you said, Eifie.)

Anyway, I'm not 100% trusting of Butterfree yet and am waiting to hear what she did last night. 



			
				Eifie said:
			
		

> And re: the first option: I do think Keldeo has been quieter than usual lately, although the post count disagrees with me somewhat. She also did not talk at all yesterday. Keldeo, do you have anything to say about this?


I noticed this too, actually.


----------



## Sandstone-Shadow (Dec 15, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Eifie said:


> I have made the dangerous mistake of assuming anyone who inspects innocent is town several times before, so I just wanted to bring this up!


Wait, ILS, when you get your results, what's the exact wording? Innocent or town?


----------



## Eifie (Dec 15, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Sandstone-Shadow said:


> Wait, ILS, when you get your results, what's the exact wording? Innocent or town?


Let me clarify what I meant: the dangerous mistake is assuming that anyone who inspects as innocent actually wants the innocents to win. Inactive aliens, half-mafia, godfathers, and some third-party roles inspect as innocent.


----------



## Sandstone-Shadow (Dec 15, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Eifie said:


> Let me clarify what I meant: the dangerous mistake is assuming that anyone who inspects as innocent actually wants the innocents to win. Inactive aliens, half-mafia, godfathers, and some third-party roles inspect as innocent.


Gotcha. That makes sense, and is something to watch for.


----------



## Eifie (Dec 15, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Sandstone-Shadow said:


> Are Pokemon not considered town, then? I'm not sure how Pokemon roles work in mafia. Or can Pokemon roles be either?


I just saw this post, so: I'm assuming "Pokémon" is just the flavour name for "third-party" in this game.


----------



## Keldeo (Dec 15, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Eifie said:


> And re: the first option: I do think Keldeo has been quieter than usual lately, although the post count disagrees with me somewhat. She also did not talk at all yesterday. Keldeo, do you have anything to say about this?


So I actually have an explanation for my low activity recently - it's pretty much due to a combination of me not having much relevant to say, and not really suspecting ZM one way or the other (besides what in hindsight was a pretty anti-town tone in some of his posts) but it's mostly because of schoolwork. This week (as in, 12/11 to 12/15) was exam week for me, and last week was dead week, so I had to finish up a lot of really important final projects for the classes that didn't have exams. The last day phase was right in the middle of the last weekend before finals, so I was basically reviewing all day and didn't have time to take more than a cursory look at the thread. I just had my last exam for the calendar year today, though, so I should be able to post more from now on.

Okay, more relatedly to figuring out the game, I've been saying that process of elimination is the key to figuring out who the two mafia still alive are, so I should probably deliver on that - here's where I'm at now for my thought process as to who's mafia. 

People still alive, in order of the player list: Gzhoom, MF, Butterfree, Eifie, ILS, me, SS. If it's 5 town:2 mafia right now, after a mislynch and kill it would be 3:2; no lynch + kill or mislynch + no kill, 4:2; correct lynch and kill, 4:1; correct lynch and no kill, 5:1. So I think it's pretty imperative that we lynch, and lynch the most suspicious person, today. (People who've died and flipped town: RedneckPhoenix, Cynder, Superbird, Stryke, Kratos. People who've died and flipped mafia/Pokemon: Flora, ZM.)

First off, I know I'm town. (I know that ZM said this and ended up being a third party, but I actually do think that my role would be better kept from the mafia at this point in the game, and it wouldn't help town as much as it would hurt to have out in the open, I think. I can claim if it's necessary; like I said, I don't have any more exams from here on out, so I'll be more attentive to what's going on in the thread.) And as I've stated before, it's very, very unlikely that ILS is lying about his role, and he's provided us with good information so far. So we can move me and him to the front of the list: me, ILS, Gzhoom, MF, Butterfree, Eifie, SS

MF and Gzhoom were confirmed innocent by ILS, on n4 and n3, respectively. As Eifie's said, this could mean that they're "half-mafia" or godfather or a similar role that investigates as innocent but isn't actually town; while it's somewhat unlikely, I'm pretty sure Godfather is a pretty standard role, looking at the mafia rules, and it's not a stretch to think that a godfather-type would be in this game. Between MF and Gzhoom, I personally think Gzhoom is more likely to be this type of role, if there is one, because I've pretty consistently read MF as aggressive town with his posts and pushes since day 1, which feels pretty "in character" for him. I don't have as much of a behavioral or tonal read for Gzhoom, who hasn't been posting as much (if you look back through the thread, his posts are pretty consistently just saying what his targets have been, not really analyzing the game.) While he's had valid reasons for it, he's also been idle for the past two nights... Hmm, I also do feel like I tend to give new players too much of the benefit of a doubt, so maybe I'm overcompensating for that? In any case, we can move MF and Gzhoom to the front of the list, with the caveat that they _could_ potentially be godfather/terrorist/"half-mafia" or the like. Me, ILS, MF, Gzhoom, Butterfree, Eifie, SS.

So, the people we haven't covered are Butterfree, Eifie, and SS. Taking these one at a time: 

I honestly trust Eifie the most. Her claim came early, it's rock solid and was instrumental in lynching Flora, and she's been one of the most active posters/solvers (which is pretty typical for her, iirc?) and has led two lynches of anti-town people so far. Her tone is pretty consistently towny as well, especially in how she's been hunting for scum and how she pushed ZM yesterday. There's not really much else to say; there are a coupe tone-based things that _could_ come from a mafia mindset, but I think it's highly unlikely.

With regard to SS, I want to read her as town, she's been posting a lot and comes across as pretty genuine, but there's also a little off-seeming thing to her behavior? Like, the fact that she's been consistently asking questions about fairly basic mafia stuff like whether we can abstain, whether roles are revealed upon death, and what a Pokemon alignment is _would_ make me read her as town and just new to mafia... but it's almost a "lady doth protest too much" situation. While some of those questions did reveal information, e.g. this, I feel like the questions and the working out her reasoning in posts miiight just as easily be a coached thing, where hypothetical mafia-SS's mafia partners told her to post gamestate-related questions or basic deductions that make her seem active and newbie but don't actually give us any information. And in the past few days, she's been echoing Eifie (and, to an extent, me) a lot. While this hasn't been all of her content, which would be a lot more suspicious, it's justifiable but also _could_ just be another way to get on town's good side. (What I'm talking about: following me, Eifie, Eifie.) I feel like I might also be falling into the trap here of being too skeptical/paranoid of new players, so in the end I just pretty much don't have a read on her. Her behavior could stem from a town mindset, or it could stem from a mafia mindset - I don't know.

Finally, Butterfree... I really don't know. Up until her claim, she seemed kind of suspicious to me. She's been quite inactive, and all of the posts that she did make would've been really easy for a mafia in her position to make imo, because it was pretty much entirely bandwagoning - she's been on literally every single wagon except ZM's, iirc, and including mine when I was being suspected of being mafia. I think she's usually at least a bit more active in terms of at least commenting on things if not offering any new information? So the fact that she just hadn't really been doing anything stuck out to me. And then there's her roleclaim post, which made my estimation of her as town increase a lot - it's definitely plausible, and her claim makes for a good reason to lay low. Except claiming a conveniently ineffectual doctor, while leaving the door open for any potential second doctor not to counterclaim, might also be fairly easy for mafia to say, and it practically ensures that Butterfree wouldn't be lynched if we believed her claim because we need a doctor to protect ILS. All they had to do last night was just not kill anyone, and then Butterfree could claim that it was because of her action, establishing her as a trusted figure. I feel like I'm probably overthinking this in some way, but... with a lack of anyone more suspicious seeming (because honestly, everyone still alive in this game seems at least a little towny to me for one reason or another) she's at the bottom of the list.

Okay, hopefully that was coherent. The final list, from towniest- to scummiest-seeming imo: Me, ILS, MF, Gzhoom, Eifie, SS, Butterfree. (A more accurate label would probably be "most towniest to least towniest" since I don't really see anyone who's glaringly suspicious... but at the same time I don't think I'm very good at sussing out lies very well and I haven't played play-by-post mafia in a long while, so there's probably a scum among the people I think are town.) But that's my reasoning, and that's why I think we should lynch SS or Butterfree today, unless more information turns up.


----------



## Eifie (Dec 15, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Keldeo said:


> First off, I know I'm town. (I know that ZM said this and ended up being a third party, but I actually do think that my role would be better kept from the mafia at this point in the game, and it wouldn't help town as much as it would hurt to have out in the open, I think. I can claim if it's necessary; like I said, I don't have any more exams from here on out, so I'll be more attentive to what's going on in the thread.)


I think you should claim. We're on day 5 and have lynched only one actual mafia-flipping mafia, and we have two claimed protective roles and a cop. At this point, since more than one of us thinks you might be a worthwhile lynch, I think the benefit of having all the information out there to properly inform a lynch today outweighs whatever drawbacks there might be to giving the mafia that information. Everyone else: what do you think?

(Comments on the rest later. Can you write my 15-page report for me?)


----------



## Sandstone-Shadow (Dec 16, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Keldeo said:


> With regard to SS, I want to read her as town, she's been posting a lot and comes across as pretty genuine, but there's also a little off-seeming thing to her behavior? Like, the fact that she's been consistently asking questions about fairly basic mafia stuff like whether we can abstain, whether roles are revealed upon death, and what a Pokemon alignment is _would_ make me read her as town and just new to mafia... but it's almost a "lady doth protest too much" situation. While some of those questions did reveal information, e.g. this, I feel like the questions and the working out her reasoning in posts miiight just as easily be a coached thing, where hypothetical mafia-SS's mafia partners told her to post gamestate-related questions or basic deductions that make her seem active and newbie but don't actually give us any information. And in the past few days, she's been echoing Eifie (and, to an extent, me) a lot. While this hasn't been all of her content, which would be a lot more suspicious, it's justifiable but also _could_ just be another way to get on town's good side. (What I'm talking about: following me, Eifie, Eifie.) I feel like I might also be falling into the trap here of being too skeptical/paranoid of new players, so in the end I just pretty much don't have a read on her. Her behavior could stem from a town mindset, or it could stem from a mafia mindset - I don't know.


A bit of explanation on this: I've been posting a lot of questions/clarifications in this game because while I'm not new to mafia, this is my first time playing on these forums, and there's a lot of detail mechanics that I'm not used to. I've never played with a lot of these roles (especially Pokemon) and I'm used to finding out people's specific roles, not just alignment, when they die (this has rendered obsolete a lot of my usual mafia logic strategies), so a lot of my posts have been me trying to puzzle out what's going on. It's true that some of my posts have been echoes of Eifie/you/others, but that's because I'm rephrasing to make sure I understand (and hoping someone will correct me if I understood wrong). It's been a lot of Eifie's posts because, like you said, she's got a pretty solid claim (so I trust her) and she's pretty active, so there's usually something for me to respond to from her. 



Eifie said:


> I think you should claim. We're on day 5 and have lynched only one actual mafia-flipping mafia, and we have two claimed protective roles and a cop. At this point, since more than one of us thinks you might be a worthwhile lynch, I think the benefit of having all the information out there to properly inform a lynch today outweighs whatever drawbacks there might be to giving the mafia that information. Everyone else: what do you think?


I've been trying to hide my role, but by this logic, I should claim too. 

I am also a doctor. This is why some of my questions were so specific and probably odd-sounding; if things panned out a certain way, I would have had the ability to call someone out. I was particularly interested in this: 



Sandstone-Shadow said:


> Gzhoom goes first:
> ILS -> RedneckPhoenix -(Gzhoom switches me and ILS)> my potential target -(Eifie redirects me to Cynder)> my potential target
> Me -> my potential target -(Gzhoom switches me and ILS)> RedneckPhoenix -(Eifie redirects me to Cynder)> Cynder
> 
> ...


This was from N2, and RedneckPhoenix died that night. So if my second scenario was correct, then I actually healed RedneckPhoenix N2, he shouldn't have died, and Gzhoom was lying. However, it seems like my analysis of how those roles interacted was wrong anyway, meaning this didn't prove anything, and I kept quiet about my role. 

My targets so far: 
N0: Eifie
N1: Keldeo
N2: Eifie (back to her after the redirector claim - I thought that might be a prime target, especially with the systematic way she was using it, and how vocal she's been at trying to figure out the situation)
N3: ILS (conversation changed my mind and made it sound like he'd be the more important mafia kill)
N4: Gzhoom (would've gone for ILS again, but decided to trust Butterfree and didn't want to overdose ILS)

The most interesting thing to me is why Butterfree didn't try to heal ILS on N3. I probably should have healed him on N2, to be honest, and luckily that's turned out okay. It looks like she claims she didn't because of all the switching going on, which could honestly be a logical explanation. I think some of my heals got redirected (N2 and N3, I think), so maybe _I_ should have targeted quieter players in the hopes of getting switched with one of the important roleclaims. I just cut right to the chase, I guess, and hoped I wouldn't get switched. 



			
				Keldeo said:
			
		

> Finally, Butterfree... I really don't know. Up until her claim, she seemed kind of suspicious to me. She's been quite inactive, and all of the posts that she did make would've been really easy for a mafia in her position to make imo, because it was pretty much entirely bandwagoning - she's been on literally every single wagon except ZM's, iirc, and including mine when I was being suspected of being mafia.


This could be a mafia sign - even if she knows someone who's being voted upon is mafia, her one vote is probably not going to change the tide, and it might be better for her to appear innocent by voting with the town, rather than sticking up for someone. 



			
				Keldeo said:
			
		

> I think she's usually at least a bit more active in terms of at least commenting on things if not offering any new information? So the fact that she just hadn't really been doing anything stuck out to me. And then there's her roleclaim post, which made my estimation of her as town increase a lot - it's definitely plausible, and her claim makes for a good reason to lay low. Except claiming a conveniently ineffectual doctor, while leaving the door open for any potential second doctor not to counterclaim, might also be fairly easy for mafia to say, and it practically ensures that Butterfree wouldn't be lynched if we believed her claim because we need a doctor to protect ILS. All they had to do last night was just not kill anyone, and then Butterfree could claim that it was because of her action, establishing her as a trusted figure.


I agree with this, and I'm hesitant too. If she was telling the truth, then mafia would likely not have targeted ILS last night (why waste a kill), which means they've got 4 targets left, assuming 2 mafia are left. Wouldn't mafia go for Butterfree, if they knew ILS was protected? Gzhoom and Eifie didn't do any switching, so there was nothing to stop mafia from targeting Butterfree. 

The other possibility is mafia targeted Gzhoom last night, and my heal saved him. But honestly, if Butterfree is actually a doctor, I'm not sure why mafia wouldn't have killed her last night.

I'm most suspicious of Butterfree right now, so I'm curious to see what she'll say. I'm also now curious what Keldeo's claim/response will be.


----------



## Gzhoom (Dec 16, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Okay, 2 things. 

1. I completely forgot Butterfree’s suggestion for my action last night. I can understand how this, paired with my lack of action the night before, seems fishy. However, I’m Town, and despite my poor memory, I’m happy to help out however I can during night actions.

2. A lot of this stuff is way over my head. A few of you have clearly played a lot of these types of games before, and all of these in-depth analyses usually leave me with not a lot to add. 

Sorry for screwing up that momentum we had going, guys. Anything I can do I’ll be happy to!


----------



## Keldeo (Dec 16, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Okay, wow, this is a mess. I am also also a doctor, I thought I'd be able to just keep healing from the shadows and not get myself killed given Butterfree's claim, but unless Negrek is trying to run some sort of "everyone redirects and overdoses each other" game, at least one of us is lying.

My targets so far have been: 
n0: Kratos - basically just going for a player who usually contributes.
n1: MF - at this point I think I'd thought the mafia were going after established players, so I was pretty surprised when Stryke died.
n2: ZM - and then I guessed they were going after inactives, but no dice.
n3: Butterfree - ironically, I was trying to do the same thing she said she did, going for an inactive to make sure ILS didn't die.
n4: Eifie - I was really out of it when I sent this action, but Eifie led the ZM lynch and was pretty much my only solid townread at that point besides ILS (Butterfree already said she was going to target ILS, and I didn't want to overdose him if Butterfree _was_ telling the truth.)

Ugh. I'm really not sure what to think any more. Obviously, we each know that we're telling the truth (or lying), but in the absence of any direct evidence, any of us could be the fake doctor(s)... Does anyone besides me, SS, and Butterfree have anything to add that won't just confuse this situation more? Butterfree, who did you target last night?


----------



## Sandstone-Shadow (Dec 16, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*

...when you said it was better if the mafia didn't know, I kinda wondered if you would be claiming doctor. Oh boy.


----------



## Butterfree (Dec 16, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*

I healed ILS, like I said I would.



			
				Sandstone-Shadow said:
			
		

> The most interesting thing to me is why Butterfree didn't try to heal ILS on N3. I probably should have healed him on N2, to be honest, and luckily that's turned out okay. It looks like she claims she didn't because of all the switching going on, which could honestly be a logical explanation.


No; I didn't heal him because I was concerned there might be another hidden doctor who'd be healing him, so if I did too he might overdose. I stated this in my roleclaim post, and if you're telling the truth, it was exactly the right choice! I did heal ILS last night because I'd posted in the thread that I would, and I hoped any hidden doctors would therefore avoid him.

Three doctors does sound fairly unlikely, especially with a bunch of redirecting going on as well, and personally, I'm most suspicious of Sandstone-Shadow's claim here - mainly because claiming to be a third doctor after two have claimed is a weird and suspicious claim, and it seems easier for mafia to claim something more innocuous-sounding. Also, I've been vaguely reading her as mafia for a while now (caveat: the other player I was definitely reading as mafia was MF, so, uh, I am not exactly infallible there).

Sandstone-Shadow's logic here is also weirdly eager to throw stones at me, to the point of not being entirely consistent; consider the way she claims to have not targeted ILS because of the possibility of overdosing, but then two sentences later forgets about this as a possible reason I wouldn't have targeted him N3.



			
				Sandstone-Shadow said:
			
		

> I agree with this, and I'm hesitant too. If she was telling the truth, then mafia would likely not have targeted ILS last night (why waste a kill), which means they've got 4 targets left, assuming 2 mafia are left. Wouldn't mafia go for Butterfree, if they knew ILS was protected? Gzhoom and Eifie didn't do any switching, so there was nothing to stop mafia from targeting Butterfree.
> 
> The other possibility is mafia targeted Gzhoom last night, and my heal saved him. But honestly, if Butterfree is actually a doctor, I'm not sure why mafia wouldn't have killed her last night.


This doesn't follow. The mafia didn't know Gzhoom and Eifie wouldn't do any switching; I explicitly asked Gzhoom to switch me with somebody, so logically they should have expected that targeting me would at most get them someone else (and if a second doctor was around who tried to heal me, that person wouldn't even die).


----------



## Sandstone-Shadow (Dec 16, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Butterfree said:


> No; I didn't heal him because I was concerned there might be another hidden doctor who'd be healing him, so if I did too he might overdose. I stated this in my roleclaim post, and if you're telling the truth, it was exactly the right choice! I did heal ILS last night because I'd posted in the thread that I would, and I hoped any hidden doctors would therefore avoid him.


You're right, it was a good choice - I hadn't considered the possibility of more than one doctor, and with so few people left and so many apparent mafia, it's going to mean more coordination. (and more possibly unwarranted trust?)



> Three doctors does sound fairly unlikely, especially with a bunch of redirecting going on as well, and personally, I'm most suspicious of Sandstone-Shadow's claim here - mainly because claiming to be a third doctor after two have claimed is a weird and suspicious claim, and it seems easier for mafia to claim something more innocuous-sounding. Also, I've been vaguely reading her as mafia for a while now (caveat: the other player I was definitely reading as mafia was MF, so, uh, I am not exactly infallible there).


I claimed before Keldeo, so not sure why you're accusing me of a convenient claim. My claim has some griunds, too, at least in terms of why I asked so many specific questions in N2, in particular - even D4, to be honest. I guess whether you believe me is up to you. I didn't know how likely there was to be multiple doctors, so naturally I was suspicious of you. 



> Sandstone-Shadow's logic here is also weirdly eager to throw stones at me, to the point of not being entirely consistent; consider the way she claims to have not targeted ILS because of the possibility of overdosing, but then two sentences later forgets about this as a possible reason I wouldn't have targeted him N3.


 You're right about this - I was just thinking out lot there, and I rambled my way into concluding that maybe you did have a good reason for not trying to heal ILS sooner. 

[/quote]This doesn't follow. The mafia didn't know Gzhoom and Eifie wouldn't do any switching; I explicitly asked Gzhoom to switch me with somebody, so logically they should have expected that targeting me would at most get them someone else (and if a second doctor was around who tried to heal me, that person wouldn't even die).[/QUOTE]Right, but Gzhoom couldn't have switched you with himself, so if they wanted to get you, they shouldn't have targeted him.


----------



## M&F (Dec 16, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Keldeo said:


> because I've pretty consistently read MF as aggressive town with his posts and pushes since day 1, which feels pretty "in character" for him.


Man, if I ever figure out who's playing this character, I'm gonna kick their ass.

Ahem! The game, huh? First of all, I guess ZM's ostensibly overpowered claim makes a lot more sense now -- in fact, his insistence on mentioning how he knows about there being players with kills other than mafia makes me think he might have been a serial killer. Not that he was otherwise wrong about that, though.

Now then, I've got something pretty useful in the spirit of narrowing us down, so, it's time for me to claim. I'm a jack-of-all-trades -- you know the drill, one kill, one cop, one doc, one block. That second one would be what Kratos saw me doing to Keldeo on N0, and what do you know, it demonstrably went through as I found out that she's Town back then. (In fact, I'm pretty glad Eifie got to this thread on D2 before I ever did, so she could clear up the whole redirection mess before I had to show up here counterclaiming the damn cop.) I've also figured it was worth a shot using my heal on the doc N2, specially since my PM says nothing of healer clash so I assumed that wouldn't be a risk (in fact, I assumed that we were unlikely to have more protection than both this and the jailer, but what do you know, we've got more people claiming doc than we have mafiosi alive, probably. and at least one of them appears to be town as far as my copping goes, too). I've still got my vig and my block, since, unlike the other two, there were no circumstances making it favorable to use them early.

What this boils down to is: Keldeo is innocent, I'm innocent (and it's not even just me saying that, as it turns out), Eifie and ILS technically haven't been cleared but have both been making very strongly town games. Ghzoom does have a clear from ILS, but I don't know that I can trust it 100% -- mostly considering that a scum bus driver who swaps himself off (as scum bus drivers often do when playing passively) on a night when the cop targets him has no incentive whatsoever to be honest about who he swapped, au contraire (and we do know that redirection monkeyry doesn't show up on ILS's results, as seen on D1). And then we have Butterfree and Sandstone-Shadow, both unclear and stuck on a counterclaim.

I'd be inclined to assume that the mafia is Ghzoom and one of Butterfree or Sandstone-Shadow (and most likely the latter really), but then, these last few posts have been sounding to me like they could be a spot of the ol' bussing spectacle in the works. I'm gonna have to do some hard thinking on whether said spectacle would be necessary for the mafiosi to push forward at this point in the game. But go on, entertain me, why don't ya?


----------



## Sandstone-Shadow (Dec 16, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Metallica Fanboy said:


> I've also figured it was worth a shot using my heal on the doc N2, specially since my PM says nothing of healer clash so I assumed that wouldn't be a risk


You healed who on N2? 

My PM does state the risk of healer clash - this is something I should have heeded more, but I didn't think it was likely and there wasn't much I would be able to do about it without claiming, anyway.


----------



## Sandstone-Shadow (Dec 16, 2017)

*Re: [D3] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Gzhoom said:


> Oh, two things to clarify:
> 
> 1. Negrek informed me after N0 that he made an error in my info and that I shouldn’t be able to target myself.


I'm reading this as unable to switch themselves away to someone else, for possible cop inspection, unless this is a lie.


----------



## Butterfree (Dec 16, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*



			
				Sandstone-Shadow said:
			
		

> I claimed before Keldeo, so not sure why you're accusing me of a convenient claim.


I'm saying Keldeo's claim (a third doctor) is surprising and odd, while yours (a second doctor) was not really, so yours was safer than Keldeo's. It's reasonable the mafia figured it was unlikely there were still two living doctors and thus believed a second doctor claim would go uncontested; it'd be weird for the mafia to break out "Oh, yeah, I'm a doctor too!" after two real ones have already been revealed. And assuming we trust MF, Keldeo is indeed a real doctor. (I'm saying all this, of course, knowing that I'm a real doctor. From your point of view, it could be my claim that's fake.)



			
				Sandstone-Shadow said:
			
		

> Right, but Gzhoom couldn't have switched you with himself, so if they wanted to get you, they shouldn't have targeted him.


Seeing as in my plan Gzhoom was the end of a doctor chain (in my plan he'd be "protecting" me, and I'd be protecting ILS), it seems pretty reasonable they'd try to target him, actually (so that next time I'd be vulnerable, and after that ILS). They could also have figured that since my plan was never explicitly confirmed in the thread - or because we've already had a scenario where someone would plan to "protect" ILS in the thread only for them to not actually do so under the assumption that the mafia then wouldn't target him - I might not actually target ILS, and thus they took a shot at him. Or they thought someone else could be out there who'd protect Gzhoom and decided to go for Eifie, who Keldeo healed.

MF's reasoning seems sound to me. Shall we go with Gzhoom, then? Or do we want to resolve the mystery of the fake doctor?

If we lynch Gzhoom, I suggest tonight Keldeo heals ILS, since Keldeo has been confirmed by someone confirmed town (unless some innocent-inspected scum shenanigans are going on). ILS inspects either me or Sandstone-Shadow. Sandstone-Shadow and I are very unlikely to both be real doctors, so I'm tempted to say we should both heal Keldeo. (Mafia doctor seems unlikely, since then they could have overdosed ILS yesterday but didn't.) As far as I can tell, the possibilities of the result of this scenario are:

1. Keldeo dies. This means Sandstone-Shadow and I are either both real doctors or both mafia; ILS's inspection should be able to tell us which. This is probably very unlikely.
2. One of me/Sandstone-Shadow dies, flipping town. This strongly suggests the other is mafia, and there's at least a 50% chance ILS's inspection can confirm this (more if he goes with inspecting the one who actually is mafia).
3. Eifie or MF dies, in which case we will have ILS's inspection result to point fingers either at me or Sandstone-Shadow.

Anything I've overlooked here?


----------



## Eifie (Dec 16, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Butterfree said:


> MF's reasoning seems sound to me. Shall we go with Gzhoom, then? Or do we want to resolve the mystery of the fake doctor?
> 
> If we lynch Gzhoom, I suggest tonight Keldeo heals ILS, since Keldeo has been confirmed by someone confirmed town (unless some innocent-inspected scum shenanigans are going on). ILS inspects either me or Sandstone-Shadow. Sandstone-Shadow and I are very unlikely to both be real doctors, so I'm tempted to say we should both heal Keldeo. (Mafia doctor seems unlikely, since then they could have overdosed ILS yesterday but didn't.) As far as I can tell, the possibilities of the result of this scenario are:
> 
> ...


I think we should lynch one of the doctors today, because someone here is (pretty much) _definitely_ lying, as opposed to Gzhoom who _might_ be lying and, since he's inspected innocent, wouldn't count as mafia for win conditions anyway. How about this?


 We lynch either SS or Butterfree.
 The one we don't lynch, along with Keldeo, heals Gzhoom tonight. If the one we didn't lynch is also a doctor, Gzhoom will die. Otherwise, the mafia won't be able to kill Gzhoom because he'll still have one heal on him. Gzhoom can't swap himself, and I won't redirect anyone, so he won't be able to mess anything up with bus driving.
 ILS inspects the one we didn't lynch, I guess, just to be sure?


----------



## Sandstone-Shadow (Dec 16, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*

I'll respond to the rest of this later, but it seems to me like we're assuming it's either me or Butterfree lying - it could also be Keldeo. Are we ignoring that because "third doctor claim would be a risky move" thing?

Can a jack of all trades be a mafia-aligned role? I believe MF is the first person to claim Keldeo flipped town, right? Or did I forget about something that happened earlier?


----------



## Butterfree (Dec 16, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*

ILS inspected MF as town, and MF inspected Keldeo as town. It's _possible_ there's some third-partying going on here, but it's very reasonable to regard Keldeo's claim as the most solid of the three of us.



			
				Eifie said:
			
		

> The one we don't lynch, along with Keldeo, heals Gzhoom tonight. If the one we didn't lynch is also a doctor, Gzhoom will die. Otherwise, the mafia won't be able to kill Gzhoom because he'll still have one heal on him. Gzhoom can't swap himself, and I won't redirect anyone, so he won't be able to mess anything up with bus driving.


Intentional overdosing just to confirm whether someone is a doctor seems pretty reckless, particularly since if we do this, ILS will be vulnerable. The idea with my plan is that ILS will definitely live, unless MF turns out to be lying about Keldeo.


----------



## Butterfree (Dec 16, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*

(Well, when I say third-partying I mean anything non-town that inspects as town, including mafia-aligned roles.)


----------



## Sandstone-Shadow (Dec 16, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Butterfree said:


> Intentional overdosing just to confirm whether someone is a doctor seems pretty reckless, particularly since if we do this, ILS will be vulnerable. The idea with my plan is that ILS will definitely live, unless MF turns out to be lying about Keldeo.


Honestly, if we do try to intentionally overdose someone, it should be Keldeo. You mentioned this already, Butterfree, as a possible plan, and I'm tempted to say we should go for it. If we ARE both doctors, then we eliminate Keldeo, who would have had to be lying. This does then put ILS at risk, unless Gzhoom can swap ILS with someone.


----------



## Sandstone-Shadow (Dec 16, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*

I'm not sure what options we have that don't put ILS at risk and don't confirm which of us doctors are lying, at least not in a gambling kind of way. Lynching me or Butterfree could result in losing a real doctor, but then again, we have three claims going around and seem to be okay with the idea with two of them being real. If we mislynch one, it might not be the end of the world since there's likely another real doctor? However, lynching one of us would break up the other plans we've got in place. 

Obviously, if we lynch one and they're mafia, that's a win for the town. If we lynch one and they're town, then we have one doctor we know wasn't lying and still two that we might be unsure of. Keldeo would have to be in agreement with what Butterfree and I might try to plan, because otherwise there is no plan if we lynch me or Butterfree and turn out to be wrong.


----------



## Eifie (Dec 16, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Butterfree said:


> Intentional overdosing just to confirm whether someone is a doctor seems pretty reckless, particularly since if we do this, ILS will be vulnerable. The idea with my plan is that ILS will definitely live, unless MF turns out to be lying about Keldeo.


The idea was that it's down to you/SS and Gzhoom, so the game would end at that point anyway. I guess if we want to be more cautious we could have Keldeo heal ILS and the other person do I don't know what, and just rely on ILS's inspection on the other person.

Mostly I just think doing a lynch that probably has a 50/50 chance of getting us a mafia-flipping mafia is of higher priority than lynching Gzhoom when we can be pretty certain that he'll flip innocent anyway due to the inspection. Not so sure what to do after that yet.


----------



## Sandstone-Shadow (Dec 16, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*

I'm just not 100% convinced that MF is telling the truth - his posts so far have been very eloquent/boastful in a way that could be a cover up, and if he is a scum town, he could very easily have flipped mafia for Keldeo and could be lying to us about it. I'm not saying me or Butterfree isn't a safer bet, but I'm not ready to assume Keldeo is in the clear.


----------



## Eifie (Dec 16, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Sandstone-Shadow said:


> I'm just not 100% convinced that MF is telling the truth - his posts so far have been very eloquent/boastful in a way that could be a cover up, and if he is a scum town, he could very easily have flipped mafia for Keldeo and could be lying to us about it. I'm not saying me or Butterfree isn't a safer bet, but I'm not ready to assume Keldeo is in the clear.


Hence the "probably". I think he usually talks like that, though.


----------



## Sandstone-Shadow (Dec 16, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*

In any case, we'd better have a plan in place for what happens after we lynch. If we lynch a doctor and they're mafia, then the other two doctors could split two targets (ILS should be one). If we're between lynching me and Butterfree, and we lynch correctly, then I think ILS should inspect Keldeo, and we'd have our final answer. 

If we lynch between me or Butterfree and we're wrong, then ILS could inspect the other, and the remaining "doctors" could both target ILS, since one of those remaining would be lying.


----------



## M&F (Dec 16, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Sandstone-Shadow said:


> You healed who on N2?


ILS. I thought I'd mentioned it somewhere in the middle of all my babble but I guess I didn't, whoops.



Sandstone-Shadow said:


> I'm reading this as unable to switch themselves away to someone else, for possible cop inspection, unless this is a lie.


Hmmmm. On the one hand I don't see the point of Ghzoom going to the bother of briging that up if he's scum, least of all if it's false. On the other hand, bringing this up doesn't benefit the bussing at all, but it would be useful if Sandstone-Shadow is either innocent or Ghzoom's scumbuddy, and Ghzoom would have to be scum on either possibility. Hmm!

That's a whole lot of conjecture, though, and I do agree that it's more important to lynch scum that's right in front of us -- and it must be somewhere between the three entire people claiming doctor.

As for what we do in the aftermath, I do think it's most reasonable to put Keldeo up to healing ILS. Consider that, if ILS does turn up dead anyway, we'd know exactly who to lynch -- that's exactly as good as one copping, if you're asking me.



Sandstone-Shadow said:


> I'm just not 100% convinced that MF is telling the truth - his posts so far have been very eloquent/boastful in a way that could be a cover up


Eloquent? I'm not sure you're reading the same posts as the ones I'm writing. (I'll take "boastful" though, making Tucker your avatar does Things to your psyche)


----------



## M&F (Dec 16, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Sandstone-Shadow said:


> Can a jack of all trades be a mafia-aligned role? I believe MF is the first person to claim Keldeo flipped town, right? Or did I forget about something that happened earlier?


Ah, and I also forgot to pick up on this one, but no, mafia-aligned jack-of-all-trades is not a role I've ever seen in my life. ... Guess it's a thought for when I'm doing MFia again, eh? But in any case it'd have to be a modified version, since half of a standard jack-of-all-trades's setup is completely useless to mafia. (they already _have_ night kills, and they already know the alignments of everyone but maybe a third-party player or another, and those don't always inspect as third-party anyway)


----------



## Sandstone-Shadow (Dec 16, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Metallica Fanboy said:


> Ah, and I also forgot to pick up on this one, but no, mafia-aligned jack-of-all-trades is not a role I've ever seen in my life. ... Guess it's a thought for when I'm doing MFia again, eh? But in any case it'd have to be a modified version, since half of a standard jack-of-all-trades's setup is completely useless to mafia. (they already _have_ night kills, and they already know the alignments of everyone but maybe a third-party player or another, and those don't always inspect as third-party anyway)


Not that I don't believe you, but it would work in your favor to claim that your role is never aligned with mafia! That does seem reasonable. Though, your actions don't necessarily have to serve the mafia directly - third-parties don't actually know who's mafia, so inspector could still serve a purpose for the third-partier, and the vigilante kill, well, that'd just be an extra kill for the mafia.


----------



## Eifie (Dec 17, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*

So, we are a bit more than halfway through the day phase. Can we agree on someone to lynch, so we can start planning what to do at night? If we do want to choose between SS and Butterfree and have no reason to pick one over the other, maybe we could have ILS flip a coin, since I think we can all agree that he's the most trustworthy.


----------



## Keldeo (Dec 17, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*

(Sorry for not being as active today as I'd hoped, I've been out of the house almost the whole day.) I agree that trying to intentionally cause an overdose, especially on someone who investigated innocent, is a little too risky at this point in the game since our numbers are so low, so I think the best course of action for tonight is something along the lines of what SS mentioned at the top of the page. 

Let's call our three claimed doctors 1, 2, and 3, where 1 is the most trustworthy (given ILS and MF's results, I think that's me?) and 3 is the least trustworthy. We know that either one or two people out of the three are telling the truth. Today, we lynch 3, since they're the most suspicious and that's most likely a 50/50 chance of rooting out another mafia. If 3 is mafia, that implies 2 is innocent, but not necessarily, because it's not out of the realm of possibility that there's only one doctor in this game, I think. Meanwhile, if 3 is innocent, that implies 2 is mafia. Because tomorrow we can't afford to let a mafia skate by because they're likely innocent or, conversely, to mislynch an innocent because they're likely mafia, ILS investigates 2 to make absolutely sure of their alignment, at no risk to him because 1 will heal him and 2 will heal 1. ILS and 1 are the biggest mafia targets no matter what alignment 3 is, I think, so this is the best use of the doctor(s) tonight. And if ILS turns up dead, that implicates 1, and if 1 turns up dead, that implicates 2, meaning that we have a solidly mafia lynch target for tomorrow even if ILS dies and can't reveal 2's alignment. Then, once we know who died and/or ILS's results tomorrow, we can use process of elimination again with and go from there. So tl;dr, we lynch 3, and tonight, 1 targets ILS, 2 targets 1, and ILS targets 1 if 3 is mafia and 2 if 3 isn't mafia. 

What does everyone think of this plan? As mentioned, I think I would be 1 so I'll heal ILS tonight if we go with this plan, but... I'm not actually sure whether 3 in this situation would be Butterfree or SS. Before SS's claim, I would think it would be Butterfree like I talked about earlier... but Butterfree's right that SS claiming a second doctor is a pretty low-risk action to take without knowing my role, and I'm also seeing both some town-seeming and some mafia-seeming elements, or little things that could be construed as either (which probably means I'm probably going to overthink it) in both of their posts so far today? So I'm not really sure what to think. I honestly wouldn't be opposed to having ILS decide randomly like Eifie said, since I'm really unsure who to suspect at this point, but we do need to do _something_.


----------



## Eifie (Dec 17, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Okay, in the absence of any other posts today: ILS, can you flip a coin and vote for one of SS and Butterfree?


----------



## Butterfree (Dec 17, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*

ILS flipping a coin sounds good to me.


----------



## Negrek (Dec 18, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*

*Twenty-four hour extension* for the day phase. If there's no vote after twenty-four hours, there will be no lynch.


----------



## I liek Squirtles (Dec 18, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Sorry for not posting much. I've never beem super good at analyzing mafia games. In fact, the most I can come up with right now is 'what if the mafia was all doctors' :P

Anyways, after rereading the thread, my vote is for Sandstone-Shadow. Sorry :(


----------



## Eifie (Dec 18, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*

*Sandstone-Shadow*. Sorry, apprentice :C

Okay, I don't have time to reread the thread, but I think the plan for the night was something like:

 Butterfree: heal ILS
 Keldeo: heal ILS
 ILS: inspect Butterfree
 me: nothing?
 Gzhoom: nothing?
 MF: nothing?


----------



## Keldeo (Dec 18, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Okay, *Sandstone-Shadow*.

The plan I'm going to go with is, if she's mafia:
- I heal ILS
- Butterfree heals me
- ILS inspects me

and if she's innocent:
- I heal ILS
- Butterfree heals me
- ILS inspects Butterfree


----------



## Keldeo (Dec 18, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*

(With everyone else doing nothing, yeah.)


----------



## Sandstone-Shadow (Dec 18, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*

:[ Good luck, friends.


----------



## M&F (Dec 19, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Farewell, *Sandstone-Shadow*! May you be a better mafiosa or a luckier townie next time.

If she does turn up mafia, I'll go ahead and use my block on Ghzoom, as this would prevent a kill if he's mafia, or aid the process of elimination further if he isn't. If Sandstone-Shadow turns up innocent, though, no point in using my block yet, as that'll only be a 50-50 chance of successfully blocking mafia even if I have an appropriate target.


----------



## Butterfree (Dec 19, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*

*Sandstone-Shadow*, then. Confirming that I'll heal Keldeo tonight.


----------



## Negrek (Dec 19, 2017)

*Re: [D5] ASB Halloween Mafia*

It comes down to a coin flip. There are too many suspects, too little evidence--or maybe too much clever manipulation. In the end, the town can't choose, but they know they have to act.

One person is chosen to make their decision. They watch the coin in the air, eager but apprehensive to see which way it lands. Then they have their suspect, and now, at last, they can find out the truth.

They chose wrong.

*Sandstone-Shadow is dead. She was Town.

Seventy-two hours for night actions.*


----------



## Negrek (Dec 22, 2017)

*Re: [N5] ASB Halloween Mafia*

It's a very small, demoralized group of townspeople who gathers the next morning in ASB Central. No one has to go looking for a corpse; they can see immediately who's missing.

There's hardly anyone left. Who here is grieving, and who's doing their best to hide a triumphant grin?

How many mafia, and how many townsfolk? One thing is clear: there can't be much time left to prevent the crime syndicate from taking over all of ASB.

*Gzhoom is dead. He was Town.

Seventy-two hours for discussion.*


----------



## Eifie (Dec 22, 2017)

*Re: [D6] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Bye bye, *Butterfree*!


----------



## I liek Squirtles (Dec 22, 2017)

*Re: [D6] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Hold up. 

what the fuck, Butterfree inspected Town.


----------



## Keldeo (Dec 22, 2017)

*Re: [D6] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Wait, but Sandstone-Shadow's flip pretty clearly implicates *Butterfree*, right?

Like, there can't be three town doctors in a game, but from a game-design standpoint, what better way would there be to balance out the potential power of two doctors with a third doctor, who's aligned with the mafia but doesn't know who they are (raising the potential of them actually conflicting with the mafia, like a normal terrorist role) and gets inspected as innocent? And what better way would there be to balance out a mafia-godfather-doctor than to have them not know who the other mafia are, and to include two town doctors for the possibility of overdose?

And there's always the possibility of mafia being able to fake results or something. There can only be 2 mafia left alive right now, since they haven't won, so that means 3 mafia in total at the start of the game, which seems pretty low unless some of them have power roles or a way to mess with inforoles, like being able to frame people or something.


----------



## Keldeo (Dec 22, 2017)

*Re: [D6] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Anyway, I healed ILS like I said I would. Maybe Butterfree only went along with the plan because she knew she'd get inspected as innocent either way?


----------



## M&F (Dec 22, 2017)

*Re: [D6] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Hmmm, this is perplexing. If neither Ghzoom nor Sandstone-Shadow are mafia, then who _is_ it? I mean, besides *Butterfree*, seeing as that's just the process of elimination speaking by now (I'm assuming there was either godfather or, most likely, an ill-advised bus involved in how ILS got that inspection result).

I wonder if any of the dead inno flips we have in hands were actually a terrorist? Or if ZM was supposed to be some really twisted sort of third mafioso? At any rate, if we lynch Butterfree and the game's not over by then, I suppose Keldeo would be next on the chopping block -- by actual lynch or by my nightkill as necessary -- seeing as even though I did get a town check on that, who knows the amount of ways that could've gone wrong, at this point?


----------



## Butterfree (Dec 23, 2017)

*Re: [D6] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Well, seeing as I am in fact not mafia, this is pretty perplexing.

The only person not inspected innocent is Eifie, who's acted very, very pro-town. Iiii'm thinking we may have some godfathering going on, and it's like... MF and Keldeo? Or something? Jeez, what. (If it _was_ Eifie all along, hats off.)

Seeing as the mafia might win if we mislynch here, I _would_ like to point out that seeing as I have been inspected as town, it's not by any means obvious that the best lynch target is me; if there's a mafia doctor, it could just as well be Keldeo, who was only _indirectly_ inspected as town (although I kind of doubt this, because again, a mafia doctor could easily have overdosed ILS when I announced I'd heal him - note, too, that if I were mafia doctor I could have overdosed him last night to kill an additional guaranteed useful innocent, but clearly I didn't).

That being said, I doubt this train is going to turn at this point, which is unfortunate. Negrek/possibly Eifie all along, you are a devious bastard.


----------



## Eifie (Dec 23, 2017)

*Re: [D6] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Butterfree said:


> Well, seeing as I am in fact not mafia, this is pretty perplexing.
> 
> The only person not inspected innocent is Eifie, who's acted very, very pro-town. Iiii'm thinking we may have some godfathering going on, and it's like... MF and Keldeo? Or something? Jeez, what. (If it _was_ Eifie all along, hats off.)
> 
> ...


Okay, I waited 72 whole hours just to say "bye bye Butterfree", but with ILS's inspection result, you being the first to claim doctor, and the fact that ILS did not die of overdose last night, I'm not really thinking of you as a good lynch target anymore. Everyone else has been inspected innocent by someone... I think I'd like to go for *Keldeo*, because a like, transitively-innocent inspection seems like the weakest link here. What do you think?


----------



## M&F (Dec 23, 2017)

*Re: [D6] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Ah, and here I thought this would be an unventful Day! Mafiosi who actually put up a fight are quite entertaining.

We definitely have more town clears than would be reasonable for us to have at this point, all put together. Maybe someone in the middle of the equation is a godfather! That's what godfathers are there for, after all; it's so we can't all just throw a cop at every problem. That said, unless we have any real reason to believe one (out of Butterfree, myself, or Keldeo) is likelier to be godfather than another, we'll just be running off our role PMs, which we can only ever convince exactly one person to look at. (Unless Negrek wants to cut me some entirely unfair slack, that is! I'm not gonna start sounding like I'm complaining in that case, eh? ... eh, that'd be boring.)

The rationale I've presented for my own part still stands: Butterfree is likeliest to be the false clear -- if only because, besides the godfather hypothesis, we have an additional hypothesis, which strikes me as likelier, that Ghzoom swapped off Butterfree last night and ended up producing a false positive that way; this sort of shenanigan is, as far as we can presently tell, less likely to have happened to me N0. Besides, I still have my kill and my block, so, if this does result to be a mislynch, I can fix it promptly.

(Of course, all of this runs of the assumption that I'm innocent and telling the truth about my role, but let's be real, if I'm not, then chances would be that Town is screwed anyway unless you lynch me here and now. But if I am telling the truth, lynching me here and now is a mislynch that I can't fix at night, so Town loses. So, you know! Food for thought.)

Now, I know Butterfree hasn't produced any mafia doc clashes, and she was the first to claim. None of this is all that important. Exploiting our agreements to stage a healer clash would out Butterfree promptly if she did it, but more to the point, shock and awe, mafiosi lie about their role sometimes. That happens! Malevolent, isn't it? In fact, the smart ones do it sooner rather than later -- like when they're worried they might eat an inactive lynch if they don't start producing something. Of course, this is conjecture, which is why it's not what I'm basing my decision on; it's just, y'know, to show that arguments against this decision haven't been particularly meaningful so far, hm?


----------



## Butterfree (Dec 23, 2017)

*Re: [D6] ASB Halloween Mafia*



			
				Metallica Fanboy said:
			
		

> more to the point, shock and awe, mafiosi lie about their role sometimes.


I was responding specifically to Keldeo's theory that I was a mafia doctor and inspected innocent because of that. Again, _I_ doubt there is a mafia doctor in this game, because the whole point of mafia doctors is to try to overdose important players, and there's been ample opportunity to do that and yet it still hasn't happened.

I know there's no active reason not to lynch me; I just know I'm actually a doctor.


----------



## I liek Squirtles (Dec 23, 2017)

*Re: [D6] ASB Halloween Mafia*

I've found it strange I've survived so late in the game as a cop. I'm inclined to believe that a screwy mafia is still kicking and has been screwing with my results.

I'm on mobile so I can't check well, but I'm going to revise the instances where the target of my investigation was decided the previous day phase. That might offer a lead.


----------



## Eifie (Dec 23, 2017)

*Re: [D6] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Metallica Fanboy said:


> We definitely have more town clears than would be reasonable for us to have at this point, all put together. Maybe someone in the middle of the equation is a godfather! That's what godfathers are there for, after all; it's so we can't all just throw a cop at every problem.


I don't know why everyone is so stuck on the idea of there being a godfather in this game. People never use godfather on tcodf without some kind of indication that it might be there, and I really don't believe that there would be one in this game. Although, now that I look back, it's Keldeo who brought this up in the first place, and you two who seem to keep talking about it, which is making me all the more suspicious. Now that I think about it, there is a much likelier possibility that SS brought up a while ago. I think you're a half-mafia role, and you're lying about whatever information you have on Keldeo to make her look innocent. And I think all this talk about a godfather is a whole lot of misdirection you're trying to pull. This theory makes a lot more sense and lines up with ILS's inspection results, so I would really like to consider it before going straight to godfather which I think is kind of a bastard role on tcodf.

Butterfree, I stopped your lynch train earlier (for now), but you never answered when I asked who you actually would like to lynch. You did say MF and Keldeo in your earlier post, and well, that seems like kind of the obvious conclusion from your viewpoint since you trust me and ILS. What do you think of the half-mafia theory?


----------



## Butterfree (Dec 23, 2017)

*Re: [D6] ASB Halloween Mafia*



			
				Eifie said:
			
		

> Butterfree, I stopped your lynch train earlier (for now), but you never answered when I asked who you actually would like to lynch. You did say MF and Keldeo in your earlier post, and well, that seems like kind of the obvious conclusion from your viewpoint since you trust me and ILS. What do you think of the half-mafia theory?


Yeah, that's mooore or less what I'm thinking at this point. Like, MF is actually a jack of all trades, but a mafia-aligned one, managed to find Keldeo with an inspection, and then 'cleared' her?

If that is the case, then Keldeo would be the actual mafia, so lynching *Keldeo* is probably the best bet.

(The alternative, of course, is it's you and you've been playing us all for foooools.)


----------



## Negrek (Dec 25, 2017)

*Re: [D6] ASB Halloween Mafia*

We're coming up on seventy-two hours and the vote is tied. ILS, please vote ASAP so we can move this along.


----------



## I liek Squirtles (Dec 25, 2017)

*Re: [D6] ASB Halloween Mafia*

I'm voting for *Keldeo*.


----------



## Keldeo (Dec 25, 2017)

*Re: [D6] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Well, convincing someone on my wagon to vote otherwise at this point is probably a fool’s errand, haha. But it looks like I’ll probably be lynched today either way, so consider: if MF and I are the remaining mafia, why would I ask ILS to inspect Butterfree last night if I knew that SS and Butterfree would both be innocent?

Either way, good luck, everyone!


----------



## Negrek (Dec 26, 2017)

*Re: [D6] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Discussion is tense, as is to be expected when the stakes are so high and the group so small. There's no hiding in the midst of a crowd now; everyone has to defend themselves, make an argument for why they shouldn't be the next to go. The evidence has only gotten more confusing, and everyone's nerves are growing frayed.

No one seems particularly enthusiastic about executing Keldeo, but most are surprised by the vehemence with which Metallica Fanboy rejects the notion she could be anything but innocent. He actually has to be restrained while Keldeo's hustled away--which is a serious logistical problem, since it already takes a couple of people to keep her from escaping, and Metallica Fanboy seems absolutely dead-set on putting himself between her and her would-be executioners.

In the end I liek Squirtles manages to wrestle him to the ground long enough for the others to take care of the execution, and he offers no further resistance after that.

*Keldeo is dead. She was Mafia.*

When the notebook full of kill orders and is discovered in Keldeo's pocket, the townsfolk forget their earlier reservations, laughing and whooping and breathing easier at last. They forget Metallica Fanboy, too, filtering off without him to celebrate for the last half hour or so before the sun goes down. He's left alone with Keldeo's corpse, looking down morosely. From his own pocket he takes the item the other townsfolk were looking for, and which he himself was holding for safekeeping: Keldeo's gun. "No point now, is there?" he says quietly, then puts the gun to his temple. The other townsfolk wheel around at the sound of the shot, but it's too late.

*Metallica Fanboy is dead. He was Town.

Seventy-two hours for night actions.*


----------



## Negrek (Dec 27, 2017)

*Re: [N6] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Metallica Fanboy's unexpected death casts a pall over the following night. It's hard even to celebrate the demise of another mafia member when there are so few survivors--even if the town can be saved, what will be left of it? It's even quiet at night, where before footsteps would sound on the cobblestone streets even into the wee hours of the morning as townsfolk went about clandestine business. Perhaps there are still a few slipping out to take care of late-night errands, but they're lost between the ranks of empty buildings, furtive and alone.

The morning dawns bright and clear, however, and brings with it reason for optimism: only three townsfolk went to bed, but all three have returned today.

*No one has died.

Seventy-two hours for discussion.*


----------



## Eifie (Dec 27, 2017)

*Re: [D7] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Well, I redirected Butterfree to myself expecting to die and be able to tiebreak accordingly, but I guess we really have been being played this entire time... So that's how *I liek Squirtles* has survived so long!

Better post when I am not on my phone.


----------



## I liek Squirtles (Dec 27, 2017)

*Re: [D7] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Bravo, *Eifie*. You've played excellently, but I fear it's time for it all to end now. I inspected you last night, and you flipped mafia.


----------



## Eifie (Dec 27, 2017)

*Re: [D7] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Well, Butterfree has no actual evidence of her own to sway her towards either one of us — but I think it's clear that I've been playing the much stronger town game this whole time. ILS has pretty much only been posting to share his supposed investigation results and to vote. He's never actually voted for a lynch on his own (except for the SS lynch, where we asked him to flip a coin), and that's something mafia are always afraid to do because they don't want to call extra attention to themselves. Meanwhile I've been the one to initiate multiple lynches, have been one of the most active contributors to discussion, and generally have drawn a lot of attention to myself this whole game. Whose behaviour seems more mafia-like here?

More importantly, if I was mafia, why on earth would I have stopped the Butterfree train yesterday and voted for Keldeo instead?

I would love to be a devious bastard and all, but ILS is the one we've all been blindly believing. :(


----------



## I liek Squirtles (Dec 27, 2017)

*Re: [D7] ASB Halloween Mafia*

It's true that I've only been posting my inspection results. However, they haven't been wrong once. I'd also like to point out I claimed inspector D2 (an incredibly risky proposition) and I have never been counterclaimed once.

Eifie, you were also all too enthusiastic to lynch Butterfree yesterday.


----------



## Eifie (Dec 27, 2017)

*Re: [D7] ASB Halloween Mafia*



I liek Squirtles said:


> It's true that I've only been posting my inspection results. However, they haven't been wrong once. I'd also like to point out I claimed inspector D2 (an incredibly risky proposition) and I have never been counterclaimed once.
> 
> Eifie, you were also all too enthusiastic to lynch Butterfree yesterday.


Of course they weren't wrong, otherwise we would have lynched you. Claiming cop isn't really all that risky. If you get away with it, you get to divert doctor attention and pretty much control the entire game with your claimed results. If you get counterclaimed, now you know who the real cop is and you can kill/interfere with them easily, and the person who you're claiming is mafia suddenly looks pretty likely to be innocent. And if you happen to convince the town to lynch the counterclaimer before you, then that's a _really_ good outcome for the mafia and probably worth giving up one mafioso, especially with what I just said about the supposedly-inspected person now looking innocent.

As for the second paragraph, I dont really know how you can say that when I was the one who _stopped_ the Butterfree lynch after you said you'd inspected her as innocent and two others (one of whom I started a lynch on, and who did turn out to be mafia) hopped on the bandwagon anyway with what I thought was pretty contrived reasoning. You were also all too reluctant to lynch Keldeo, considering you never voted for her until prompted. In fact, you didn't even vote for her the first time you said you inspected her as mafia, either.


----------



## I liek Squirtles (Dec 27, 2017)

*Re: [D7] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Well, I don't have much to say to that. I haven't been very active (life isn't a good excuse since we all have one). 

I still find claiming cop so early and blatantly to be a very clumsy mafia move, though. 

It is also quite interesting that you were the one who first proposed the idea of mafia roles that flip town, immediately casting doubt on all of the results I'd delivered and all the ones I'd deliver after. This devalues my results and thus makes my results sow confusion instead of providing information. This also lines up with why the inspector, of all people, would survive into the final three players.


----------



## Butterfree (Dec 27, 2017)

*Re: [D7] ASB Halloween Mafia*

I'm sorry, *Eifie*, but I'm going to say you're the remaining mafia after all.

I liek Squirtles came forward as inspector on day 2 by accusing Keldeo. This would have been a really risky move for the mafia - either opening himself up to a counterclaim from a real inspector, or if there were no counterclaim, getting a mafia member killed. It's _plausible_ for the mafia to pull this sort of gambit, since _if_ there's no counterclaim the sacrifice definitely buys trust for the supposed inspector. _However_, Keldeo in particular would definitely not have agreed to this plan if it were proposed, since we now know Keldeo and MF were lovers. Keldeo wouldn't even have had to reveal they were lovers to argue against the plan - just raise some of the very sensible risk arguments against doing this at this stage, propose ILS claim to have inspected someone innocent first, try to argue for throwing Flora under the bus instead, etc.

Conveniently, of course, Keldeo wasn't lynched... because you then hopped in and claimed to have redirected ILS to Flora. And this bought you instant credibility too, since Flora flipping mafia appeared to confirm your roleclaim! In reality, we now know ILS's original inspection result was correct if no redirection happened at all. Curious, that.

If ILS were actually mafia trying to sacrifice Keldeo for credibility and Keldeo simply went rogue against what ILS thought was an agreed-upon plan (which seems a spectacularly poor idea - makes it obvious to the mafia that something is up and Keldeo can't be trusted, at which point Keldeo could just as well have privately revealed it to talk them out of the plan), then the fact Keldeo maintained innocence by bringing up the possibility of redirection or something else that might confuse inspection results, _and then a real redirector just so happened to turn out to have redirected ILS to somebody else who just so happened to also be a mafia member_, is just a big massive coincidence, a coincidence that was incredibly convenient for Keldeo while perfectly maintaining ILS's cover. Amazing, that!

Conversely, if you were mafia, you, Flora and Keldeo would simply have discussed and coordinated this - you knew that trying to counterclaim, or claim you redirected the inspection to somebody who's actually innocent, would pretty much inevitably sacrifice one of you anyway, so why not let the inevitable sacrifice buy some real apparent roleclaim credibility for the mafia? Maybe it was even Keldeo's idea (or MF's relayed through Keldeo) - lovers coming up with a plan to avoid being the sacrifice, without revealing that they're lovers.

In other circumstantial evidence, you immediately shot down my plan of having me and SS heal Keldeo and Keldeo heal ILS - which would have meant overdosing Keldeo, since unknown to me, we really were both doctors.



> More importantly, if I was mafia, why on earth would I have stopped the Butterfree train yesterday and voted for Keldeo instead?


That one's easy: you realized Keldeo and MF were lovers, or might be lovers.

I thought it was a little weird how suddenly you turned completely on a dime there when there genuinely wasn't any unequivocal evidence for Keldeo being mafia over me; I honestly became pretty wary, because I couldn't help but read it as you deciding to support me _because I said I thought you'd been playing very town_, which wouldn't matter to a real town player.

So suppose Keldeo was the mafia don, and you had become conscious of the possibility of Keldeo and MF being lovers, but couldn't do anything about it, being a goon. If I was lynched, Keldeo and MF would have free rein to off you and ILS in any order. On the other hand, if Keldeo was lynched and they were lovers, the fact I'd just indicated I trusted you opened up the possibility that I'd side with you against ILS later, allowing for a mafia win after all. (Meanwhile, if they _hadn't_ turned out to be lovers, MF was clearly still mafia-aligned what with the supposed town inspection of Keldeo, so after getting Keldeo lynched, you could have offed me and then told MF "I'm mafia; let's lynch ILS.")

Meanwhile, you'll recall ILS cast the tiebreaker vote between me and Keldeo. What's your theory on why _he'd_ vote for Keldeo there, if he was mafia? If _he'd_ known/suspected they were lovers and wanted to root them out, it would have been much easier for him to use his inspector credibility to get that done (either by claiming he'd inspected Keldeo again on a hunch, or by drawing attention to the fact Keldeo wasn't actually inspected by him, instead of throwing doubt on _other_ inspections), instead of faking confusion and, apparently, gambling on you/me just happening to decide to vote for Keldeo. It's possible if it only just occurred to him they were lovers after all the discussion (even though the discussion didn't actually bring up that possibility), I suppose, but that's a very narrow window, compared to how your actions make sense even if you'd known or suspected for some time, since you didn't have the same credibility.

Meanwhile, if he was mafia and didn't suspect Keldeo and MF of being lovers, there was literally no reason for him to vote for Keldeo over me there.

While you've been very active, I think the evidence strongly points to you over ILS as the remaining mafia, and I don't think ILS's playing has honestly been at all suspicious - he's acted exactly like a genuine inspector who just doesn't have that much to say or get that much into in-depth strategizing.


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## I liek Squirtles (Dec 27, 2017)

*Re: [D7] ASB Halloween Mafia*

I'd also like to add that we decided on inspecting Butterfree one night in particular. If Eifie's claim were true, they could have very easily redirected my inspection of Butterfree to Keldeo and I would get a mafia result. That way, not only do they off a very active player, but I would have lost all credibility and have been a very convenient scapegoat.


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## Butterfree (Dec 27, 2017)

*Re: [D7] ASB Halloween Mafia*



I liek Squirtles said:


> I'd also like to add that we decided on inspecting Butterfree one night in particular. If Eifie's claim were true, they could have very easily redirected my inspection of Butterfree to Keldeo and I would get a mafia result. That way, not only do they off a very active player, but I would have lost all credibility and have been a very convenient scapegoat.


Well, if Eifie's claim were true, you wouldn't have been a real inspector at all and would have just been making up innocuous results, and she would be innocent and wouldn't _want_ to off an active player or make a scapegoat of you...? This doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.


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## I liek Squirtles (Dec 27, 2017)

*Re: [D7] ASB Halloween Mafia*

I was assuming Eifie was a mafia-aligned redirector instead of a town-aligned one.


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## Eifie (Dec 27, 2017)

*Re: [D7] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Midway through writing my big impressive reply I learned that Keldeo and MF couldn't win with me if I managed to pull off a win now anyway, and omg I _really_ want to show everyone what's been going on in the mafia chat so let's just speed this along with another vote for *myself*.



Butterfree said:


> I thought it was a little weird how suddenly you turned completely on a dime there when there genuinely wasn't any unequivocal evidence for Keldeo being mafia over me; I honestly became pretty wary, because I couldn't help but read it as you deciding to support me _because I said I thought you'd been playing very town_, which wouldn't matter to a real town player.


Actually, I was 100% supportive of Keldeo and MF's forbidden love and was going to commit suicide the next night so that they could win for the lulz, but then they decided to be all boring and not out themselves and collude behind my back (WHAT WERE YOU GUYS DOING, TELL ME) so I thought it'd be more fun to kill them. Since I thought they could still win with the mafia there is some very exciting blackmail in the scumchat that I am excited to reveal, but now that it's turned out that was all for naught it's just kind of a flop, alas.

Also, I have _no idea_ how you people read "Bye bye, Butterfree!" as anything but a scum outing themself knowing they had a majority.


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## Butterfree (Dec 27, 2017)

*Re: [D7] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Eifie said:


> Also, I have _no idea_ how you people read "Bye bye, Butterfree!" as anything but a scum outing themself knowing they had a majority.


It seemed pretty sensible, honestly! After all the discussion about how it was almost definitely either me or SS, and SS turning out innocent, it didn't surprise me people would just go "Welp, it's Butterfree!" - particularly you, since you were the only person not supposedly inspected innocent, so while others might have retained doubts about you, from your point of view it would've been extremely likely to be me. And it just makes for a great post. I believed you when you said you'd been waiting 72 hours to say it. (If ILS had already posted his inspection results, of course, and you'd still posted that, that'd have been another matter.)


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## Eifie (Dec 27, 2017)

*Re: [D7] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Butterfree said:


> I believed you when you said you'd been waiting 72 hours to say it.


Oh, that part was also true.


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## Negrek (Dec 30, 2017)

*Re: [D7] ASB Halloween Mafia*

At least Eifie seems confident about who the remaining Mafia member is. "ILS! I'm gonna KILLL you! Ahahahaha!" she crows.

I liek Squirtles and Butterfree exchange a look. "Actually..." Butterfree says.

It seems the tables have turned. Eifie backs away while the other two close in, still smiling almost _too_ widely. "Ha! So that's how it is! Well, you'd better make it bloody for me!"

They don't. But in the end they can confirm that yes, the last mafia member has been eliminated.

*Eifie is dead. She was Mafia.

Town wins!*

ASB Central is quiet. The specter of the mafia has passed. There will be no more mysterious nighttime disappearances, no more tense morning discussions, no more lychings or gunshots or double-crosses.

"Well, I suppose we're going to have to start over," ILS says, watching the climbing sun glint off the dome of the central arena. "It's a big job for two people, but we can get ASB running again, right?"

"Actually..." Butterfree says. For while she might not have been concealing a mafia affiliation, she hadn't been entirely honest. Her enthusiasm was for busting crime rings, not fighting with magical monsters, and in fact she didn't even go to ASB.

And then there was one.


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## Negrek (Dec 30, 2017)

*Re: [D7] ASB Halloween Mafia*

Below are the role PM's and night action log for the game. Overall what I was going for was a game with a fairly high amount of information (multiple cops and other inforoles), but where that information was unreliable (multiple blockers/redirectors). I hoped that this would lead to more meaty daytime discussions, and overall I'm pleased with how it worked out. I had a lot of fun GMing this game, and I hope you enjoyed playing it! (I 100% approve of the ridiculous amount of backstabbing and throwing people under buses that went on with the Mafia.)

As promised, everyone who's in ASB will receive a rare candy for playing, and ILS receives *two* for being the only ASB member to survive until the endgame.



Spoiler: Roles



*ILS, Superbird*

[hide=Cop]
You are a *Cop*! And a pretty hardened one, too; after all Asber's freak meteor showers, rampaging gods, and general chaos, you'd have to be. It'll take some doing, but you're prepared to go to any lengths to clean up this town, and that means hitting the streets and doing some investigating.

*You are aligned with the Town and win when all non-Town players have been eliminated. Once per night you may choose another player to inspect. At the end of the night you will receive a PM disclosing that player's alignment.*



*Dragonfree, Sandstone-Shadow*



Spoiler: Doctor



You are a *Doctor*! A doctor specializing in trauma medicine, to be specific, which is always handy in a town where most of the residents spend their days hanging around with destruction-slinging magical fightbeasts. It also happens to come in handy in situations where people keep turning up shot every morning. Your knowledge is the only thing that can save the Mafia's innocent victims--best of luck keeping the town safe.

*You are aligned with the Town and win when all non-Town players have been eliminated. Once per night you may choose another player to heal. If that player would die from a Mafia attack, their death will be prevented. However, if two or more doctors target the same player in one night, that player will die, regardless of whether or not they were targeted by any kill powers.*



*Cynder*



Spoiler: Spoilsport



You are a *Spoilsport*! Basically you hate fun--other people's fun, anyway. You have a lot of fun telling other people to knock it off, honestly. Get off my lawn with your magnifying glass!  Oh, sure, you _say_ you're a doctor, but I'm not buying it until I see your degree! And put that gun _down_ already!

*You are aligned with the Town and win when all non-Town players have been eliminated. Once per night you may target another player and prevent them from using any action that night.*



*Gzhoom*



Spoiler: Prankster



You are a *Prankster*! These are dark times, and what better way to remedy that than with a bit of humor? Oops, weren't expecting that whoopie cushion, were you? Hello, is your refrigerator running? Haha, you thought you were shooting that guy, but it was actually that other guy instead! Wait--what?

*You are aligned with the Town and win when all non-Town players have been eliminated. Once per night you may choose two players, one of which may be yourself. If you do, any other night actions that would have targeted the first player target the second player instead, and vice versa.*



*Metallica Fanboy*



Spoiler: Casanova



You are a *Casanova*! Or maybe _the_ Casanova, because after all, a town this size couldn't possibly be large enough for _two_ such incredibly suave, incredibly _interesting_ individuals, could it? As unquestionably the most eligible bachelor in all Asber, you have your pick of pretty much whoever you want to be your beau; your powers of seduction are simply legendary. So is your reputation as a player, but that one's undeserved; what you're _really_ looking for is that one special person to spend the rest of your (possibly brief) life with, 'til death do you part, baby.

*You are aligned with the Town and count as a member of that faction for the purposes of winning the game, but have unique win conditions. On the first night of the game, you must choose another player to seduce. This occurs before any night actions resolve and cannot be blocked or redirected by any disruptive powers. The chosen player will be informed of your identity, and from that point the two of you may communicate freely outside the game thread. If one of the two of you dies for any reason, the other of you will die as well. You win the game if you and your paramour are the only players remaining. If both you and your paramour share a faction, you will also win with the rest of that faction if you both survive to the end of the game.*



*Zero Moment*



Spoiler: Zoroark



You are a *Zoroark*! You've been living a quiet life in Asber, using your advanced illusion powers to pass for a human, but the recent spate of murders are a bit worrying even for a master deceiver. After all, one well-placed bullet will shatter your illusion... although any unarmed trainers who decide to bother a zoroark, even one whose true form has been revealed, are in for a nasty surprise.

*You are aligned neither with the mafia nor the town. You begin the game as a "cloaked" zoroark. You cannot win while in this form, but any inspector will be told you are Innocent. If you would be killed by any player (or multiple players) during the night, you will receive a PM informing you that your illusion has been dispelled. At this point, you win the game if you are lynched during the day. However, if you are killed during the night, you will lose instead, and any inspector will be told that you are Mafia.*



*Keldeo*



Spoiler: Mafia Don



You are the *Mafia Don*! As the person with the best taste in fashion, fast cars, and murder, it's only natural that you should have risen to the top of this fine criminal enterprise. Your underlings *Eifie* and *Flora* are a solid pair, too. This town doesn't stand a chance against the three of you!

*You are aligned with the Mafia and win when Mafia-aligned players outnumber Town-aligned players. You may communicate freely with other Mafia-aligned players outside the game thread. Once per night, you may choose one other player to kill. Although any Mafia member may send a kill order, as Don, your word overrides any contradictory kill requests.*



*Eifie, Flora*



Spoiler: Mafia Goon



You are a *Mafia Goon*! It may not be the most glamorous job around, but it definitely beats being on the other end of the gun. Plus it's a great excuse to wear a fancy suit. Together with your boss, *Keldeo*, and partner, *Flora*, you'll be ruling this town by the end of the year!

*You are aligned with the Mafia and win when Mafia-aligned players outnumber Town-aligned players. You may communicate freely with other Mafia-aligned players outside the game thread. Once per night, you may choose one other player to kill. If the don (Keldeo) sends a contradictory order, then theirs will override yours. In the event of Keldeo's death, Eifie will become the new don, followed by Flora.*



*RedneckPhoenix*



Spoiler: Dogcatcher



You are a *Dogcatcher*! Or, well, make that pokémon-catcher... Okay, actually, with some crazy serial killers running around out there or something, you're going to nab anyone you damn well _please_ and lock them up, for the good of the community. Best of luck keeping the town safe!

*You are aligned with the Town and win when all non-Town players are eliminated. Once per night you may choose one other player to throw in jail. If you choose to do so, any night action that player attempts will fail, and any night actions taken targeting that player will also fail.*



*Kratos Aurion*



Spoiler: Town Gossip



You are a doctor! With your advanced knowledge of trauma medicine and excellent bedside manner, you're sure to--

Haha, okay, it would probably be more accurate to say that you _used_ to be a doctor. These days it would probably be more accurate to call you a *Town Gossip*. It's been a while since you've dusted off the ol' M.D.--these days, as director of a large and highly successful nursing home, your concerns run more to how to find more staff when your belligerent residents manage to drive another orderly to resignation or when that next shipment of bedpans is finally going to arrive than on how to stop that haemmorhage. In a building populated by lonely people without much better to do than spy on and judge their younger town counterparts, it would be virtually impossible to completely avoid the gossip. And why would you want to? It behooves you to know who's been visiting whom, just to be sure there's no foolin' going on...

*You are aligned with the Town and win when all non-Town players are eliminated. Once per night, you may choose a player (including yourself) to hear all the gossip about. At the end of the night you will receive a PM detailing which players, if any, that player targeted with some action during that night phase.*



*Stryke*



Spoiler: Town Gossip



You are a *Town Gossip*! Or that's what everyone calls you, anyway--pretty rude, honestly. Just because you're _interested_ in other people, just because you _care_ about what happens to them, they call you a gossip. Typical! Hanging out under someone's window until two in the morning just to see who's coming and going at their place is a _totally_ reasonable thing to do when people keep turning up dead! You're there for their protection!

*You are aligned with the Town and win when all non-Town players are eliminated. Once per night, you may choose another player to watch. At the end of the night you will receive a PM detailing which players, if any, targeted your chosen individual during that night phase.*
[/hide]

* note that although this role has the same name as Kratos', it actually has the _inverse_ ability. I was just too lazy to come up with another name.





Spoiler: Night Actions



Actions N0

- MF seduces Keldeo
- Gzhoom switches himself with Sandstone-Shadow
- RedneckPhoenix jails Flora
- Cynder blocks MF (fails)
- ILS inspects Kratos Aurion (result: town)
- Superbird inspects Butterfree (result: town)
- Butterfree heals Sandstone-Shadow (redirects to Gzhoom)
- Sandstone-Shadow heals Eifie
- Stryke watches RedneckPhoenix (result: nada)
- Kratos Aurion hears gossip about MF (result: targets Keldeo)
- Keldeo shoots Superbird

--

Actions N1

- Gzhoom does nothing
- RedneckPhoenix jails MF
- Cynder does nothing
- ILS inspects Keldeo (result: Mafia)
- Butterfree heals Kratos Aurion
- Sandstone-Shadow heals Keldeo
- Stryke watches Kratos Aurion (result: targeted by Butterfree)
- Kratos Aurion hears gossip about Gzhoom (result: no target)
- Flora kills Stryke

--

Actions N2

- Gzhoom swaps ILS and Sandstone-Shadow
- RedneckPhoenix jails Butterfree
- Cynder blocks Gzhoom
- ILS inspects RedneckPhoenix (result: Town)
- Butterfree heals Kratos Aurion
- Sandstone-Shadow heals Eifie
- Kratos Aurion hears gossip about Zero Moment (result: no target)
- Keldeo kills RedneckPhoenix

--

Actions N3

- Gzhoom does nothing
- ILS inspects Gzhoom (result: Town)
- Butterfree heals Zero Moment
- Sandstone-Shadow heals ILS
- Kratos Aurion hears gossip about Sandstone-Shadow (result: targets ILS)
- Keldeo kills Kratos Aurion

--

Actions N4

- Gzhoom does nothing
- ILS inspects MF (result: Town)
- Butterfree heals ILS
- Sandstone-Shadow heals Gzhoom
- Keldeo kills Gzhoom (fails)

--

Actions N5

- Ghzoom does nothing
- ILS inspects Butterfree (result: Town)
- Butterfree heals Keldeo
- Eifie kills Gzhoom

--

Actions N6

- ILS inspects Eifie (result: Mafia)
- Butterfree heals ILS
- Eifie kills ILS (fails)


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## Eifie (Dec 30, 2017)

A somewhat abridged history of scumchat. I did my best to shorten it, but well, this was a long game. There are a couple of easter eggs in there, so you might want to read the whole thing, hehe!


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## Keldeo (Dec 30, 2017)

Honestly I'm just amazed that there were _four inforoles_ but we still managed to kill two of them in the first two nights without even knowing what their roles were.

Good game, everyone :D That was a wild ride pretty much every phase (and we would have gotten away with it too, Eifie, if it weren't for you meddling goon and your tiebreaking lynch vote!)


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## Eifie (Dec 30, 2017)

Keldeo said:


> (and we would have gotten away with it too, Eifie, if it weren't for you meddling goon and your tiebreaking lynch vote!)


You mean, if you two hadn't gotten BORING >:(


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## Negrek (Dec 30, 2017)

Keldeo said:


> Honestly I'm just amazed that there were _four inforoles_ but we still managed to kill two of them in the first two nights without even knowing what their roles were.


Jesus Christ you made a _spreadsheet_?

respect


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## Sandstone-Shadow (Dec 30, 2017)

Dang! That was super fun, good game all. And thanks for hosting, Negrek!

Butterfree, I must apologize for doubting your doctoring abilities. We should've gone after Keldeo together!


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## Sandstone-Shadow (Dec 30, 2017)

*Re: [D7] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Negrek said:


> "Well, I suppose we're going to have to start over," ILS says, watching the climbing sun glint off the dome of the central arena. "It's a big job for two people, but we can get ASB running again, right?"
> 
> "Actually..." Butterfree says. For while she might not have been concealing a mafia affiliation, she hadn't been entirely honest. Her enthusiasm was for busting crime rings, not fighting with magical monsters, and in fact she didn't even go to ASB.
> 
> And then there was one.


Wait, Negrek, you've left us hanging. Who ultimately survives?! ILS or Butterfree?! The story continues...


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## Eifie (Dec 30, 2017)

*Re: [D7] ASB Halloween Mafia*



Sandstone-Shadow said:


> Wait, Negrek, you've left us hanging. Who ultimately survives?! ILS or Butterfree?! The story continues...


It was me. I came back as a Risen to take what was rightfully mine, nyahahaha! Have some DEATH!


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## Negrek (Dec 30, 2017)

Sorry, didn't mean to imply that anybody died, just that Butterfree wandered off because she has no interest in ASB lol.


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## Sandstone-Shadow (Dec 30, 2017)

So many plot twists!


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## sanderidge (Dec 30, 2017)

i'm cackling. this was such a ride to watch.


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## Flora (Dec 30, 2017)

i'm honestly kinda disappointed that that scumchat doesn't contain "(Context: D&D character played by Butterfree turned out to have been blood-free)" because surely SOMEONE would appreciate that

overall though, a beautiful game to watch, holy shit


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## RedneckPhoenix (Dec 30, 2017)

that game left me dog-tired


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## M&F (Dec 30, 2017)

Well! Eifie decided to lose to Town instead of us, so there it is. I would've sent her down a lot more smoothly for you all, but the jollytimes had me losing track of the end of that particular phase.

Oh well, Keldeo and I sure did well for a lover-mafia team that got copped on day one. I suppose we owe a fair deal of that to our very own stinking traitor, too.

Speaking of people in unwinnable situations, though, I liked seeing the level of attendance and activity in this game, so I've been dusting off one of my unused MFia setups! I'll sleep on it for another bit so as to not crash that frontally with Keldeo's game, but perhaps, after a fair amount of deaths on that, plentiful trippy adventures shall await.


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## I liek Squirtles (Dec 30, 2017)

What a ride, yo

Both the game and scumchat were wild
Anyways, thanks Negrek for hosting and thanks everyone for some funtimes!! :0


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## Cynder (Dec 30, 2017)

Quite fun to watch, although I just had to pick the only unblockable person on N0.


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## M&F (Dec 30, 2017)

Cynder said:


> Quite fun to watch, although I just had to pick the only unblockable person on N0.


Mind, I was perfectly aware that my action was unblockable, but c'est la anti-town gameplay! (It was bizarre, albeit ultimately favorable, that my action was still _trackable_ for some reason)


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## Kratos Aurion (Dec 30, 2017)

gdi I _knew_ MF was the lover once I'd worked out what Cynder not being able to block him probably meant, but I didn't say anything because I thought Keldeo was more likely innocent than mafia and I didn't want to paint a target on two people! Gah. Not that revealing anything would've helped even if I could given that Keldeo was mafia, but still.

one of these days i'll make it to the end of a game again... one of these days... :(

Regardless, very well-played game all around, fun to play and fun to watch, and well done ILS and Butterfree for winning it for town.


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## Zero Moment (Dec 30, 2017)

Man, I went too ambitious on my Bomb claim. Shoulda just went vanilla Bomb full-stop, but I was doing some planning on calling out a fake hit on my bulletproof and stuff like that.


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