# Inheritance Cycle



## Lorem Ipsum

Well, the third one, Brisingr, came out yesterday, and I bought it today. I even tidied out my cluttered bookcase so it could have a nice position. I've only read 64 pages, but it is good so far.

So, I guess discuss the first two books here, and include anything about the third book in spoiler tags, please D:

*waits for an everyone dies post*


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## Renteura

OMGWTFBBQ BRISINGR CAME OUT???


brb must buy


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## Furretsu

EDIT: Looks like I was infracted for this post. I'm sorry, I love Inheritance. They're such well-written, original books. I wish I could read them every day. Paolini is a genius and I think he'll go down in history as one of the greatest writers of all time.


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## opaltiger

From the "previously on":



> It is into this tense political situation that Eragon finds himself thrust.


You call this _good writing?_

Also wow the subtitle what the fucking hell.

I will read it, but only out of principle - I can hardly detail everything that's wrong with it without reading it, can I?

eta: also holy exposition batman. Despite there being a previously on, Paolini still insists on telling us - in detail - certain events from the past two books. wtf.
eta2: okay now there is idealistic vegetarian preaching.
eta3: why is he spending five sentences talking about the breeze.
eta4: wow this goes on and on and on and on you do not need so many words holy christ. seriously guys please go read some good literature. ;; there is so much good SFF out there and everyone tends to read the terrible stuff. :(
eta5: so imagine the first in a really quivering voice and the second in a very manly one: "you came!" "I came."
eta6: gogo solitary tears!


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## #1 bro

the third book of the Inheritance Cycle came out May 25, 1983.


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## Abwayax

Furretsu said:


> They're such well-written, original books. I wish I could read them every day. Paolini is a genius and I think he'll go down in history as one of the greatest writers of all time.


Seconded. I think he should sue George Lucas and J.R.R Tolkien for copying him

Oh wait, Tolkien's kinda dead. Can you sue ghosts? Paolini probably can because Paolini is so awesome he can do anything

All sarcasm aside I might read the thing if it appears in my school library, but no way in fucking hell am I paying for it.


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## Diz

*SOBS*

I was expecting it in our mail box the day it came out. BUT the estimated arrival date is the 24. Poopie. I could've_* walked*_ to walmart, bought it, and walked back and be halfway through it by now. Oh well crap.


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## Furretsu

_Ditto_ said:


> Poopie.


typical inheritance fan


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## Diz

What do you mean by that?


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## OrangeAipom

I heard there's going to be a fourth one. Why?

I haven't watched Star Wars or read Inheritance. Oh well.


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## Diz

I heard that it was because Brisingr was too long. Like the editor gets so much money per word and Brisingr originally had too many words, cause it would be so expensive to pay the editor the so much per word. So they made it into two books. Sorry if that is a little to hard to understand.

The reason I like the books so much is because I live in the smallest town in Indiana. Our school's graduating class is about 70 students... _on a good year_. Our library is tiny. I have this is my seccond year at the school, and I've pretty much read all of the fantasy books worth reading. I love good, thick books. Yeah.


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## Exdeath

The Inheritance Garbage are not good books. Obscenely thick, yes, but not good at all.


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## Diz

Why not? could you please elaborate?


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## Furretsu

_Ditto_ said:


> Why not? could you please elaborate?


Here's a whole site dedicated to it.


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## OrangeAipom

I thought that less words were better when it came to getting books published. O_o


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## Negrek

I haven't read any of the Inheritance Cycle past _Eragon_, and I would say that the book would qualify as mediocre-quality fanfic or Fictionpress fare. In terms of actual literature, that's pretty danged crappy.

From what I understand, the series has not improved, although some people are saying that _Brisingr_ is a step up from _Eldest_.

Giving how infuriated I was by the tedium of HP7, I doubt I could sit through _Brisingr_ or _Eldest_.

Edit:


> I thought that less words were better when it came to getting books published. O_o


That depends on what you're looking to get published.

In general, though, you should be looking to write in as few words as possible to begin with.


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## Eevee

see guys

see

this is what you get

when you celebrate a fucking 17-year-old for being able to get his publisher parents to publish his star wars fanfic

goddamn

now he is making zillions of dollars off of being coddled by his parents

and people keep buying his garbage because they don't know what good writing looks like

thanks a lot america

land of the tasteless


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## Minish

Hmm, if the book comes into the school library, I'll probably read it. But I'd never buy it. XD

The books are okay to a certain point (I prefer them slightly over Twilight, because Paolini in the future could be a decent writer if he gets his act in gear and finds some originality) but I really don't like the author's actual arrogance. I think that gets me more even more than the blatant plagiarism.

I might also read it just for the lulz~ xD Although to be fair, I do enjoy them to a certain extent...


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## Diz

_Ditto_ said:


> Why not? could you please elaborate?


What I meant by that is "Why don't you personally like the books?"

As far as I can see, there is no mention of outerspace, The Force, light sabers, or aliens anywhere in the entire Inheritance Cycle


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## Furretsu

_Ditto_ said:


> What I meant by that is "Why don't you personally like the books?"
> 
> As far as I can see, there is no mention of outerspace, The Force, light sabers, or aliens anywhere in the entire Inheritance Cycle


goddamn

http://www.anti-shurtugal.com/wordpress/?p=30

http://www.anti-shurtugal.com/wordpress/?p=32


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## #1 bro

_Ditto_, listen to my completely original story.



			
				Me said:
			
		

> Once upon a time, there was a young lions that had two older brothers that always bossed him around. The young lion was forced to work as a slave for the two older lions. They laughed at him and called him names. One day, the three lions learned that the famous stripper Kitty Business was coming to town. She was the hottest stripper in all the land. The two older brothers went to go see the stripper, but they left the youngest brother behind. This made the young brother sad.
> 
> BUT THEN, the younger brother magically found twenty dollars on his bed, and went to buy a ticket to the strip show. The catch was, the young lion was on house arrest, so if he left his house for more than six hours, the cops would pop him. He had to go see the stripper right away! When he was at the strip show, the stripper instantly fell in love with him. After the show, they talked, and he went out to dinner at a fancy restaurant with her. They had a lovely time. However, he then realized that his six hours were about to run out! So he ran back home, leaving his arm behind at the restaurant. The stripper was heartbroken.
> 
> But then she went around, looking for lions who were missing an arm, until she found the young lion. They went out again, and then they married and lived happily ever after.


Wait, you're saying it's plagiarized from Cinderella? WHAT? But... when did Cinderella have friggin' _lions_ in it? Or strippers? And there was nothing about a fairy godmother, a prince, or a glass slipper in this story!

So clearly, this was a completely original story.


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## Butterfree

Well, no; the point of the comparisons to Star Wars are that it reads like the _plot_ of Star Wars in a medieval fantasy setting. You know, boy lives with his uncle in a world ruled by an evil emperor, he obtains something that leads him to an old mentor who turns out to have belonged to an ancient order of people with magical powers, his uncle is killed by the evil emperor's henchmen who are looking for the thing he obtained, he is trained in the arts of the ancient order, he joins the rebel forces, secondary bad guy is revealed to be his father, et cetera.

Not that I ever believed there was any reason to call it plagiarism. Paolini is not reading through the Star Wars script and rewriting it while cackling manically about his evil plot to make money from George Lucas's work; he's just a sheltered kid having fun writing a book who was subconsciously inspired by some movies he likes and took various fantasy tropes as a kind of a given or at least game for including in his series as well (ancient language, true names, place names with umlauts, tall fair elves, dwarves who are miners, telepathic dragons, and so on). It is right to call him not very original, but a plagiarist? Hardly.


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## Amaguq

I have watched the Star Wars movies, but I don't remember a thing, hardly. I don't think that the books are written the best they _could_ be. Does anyone remember at the end of the first book when Eragon "...thrust [Durza] in the heart."? That sentence was so cheap and almost ruined the whole book for me..._almost_. 

And the movie!! Oh my was I pissed. I couldn't believe that Saphira grew into a large dragon in five seconds and that Arya was _awake_ when they went to the Varden. Can't the damn people understand that they needed to get there quickly because Arya was _dying_??!!

I am now going to apologize for using multiple words in italics. I just thought the moment called for it.


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## opaltiger

_Ditto_ said:


> As far as I can see, there is no mention of outerspace, The Force, light sabers, or aliens anywhere in the entire Inheritance Cycle


In case you can't be bothered to read the pages Furret kindly linked to:

_Plot is not setting. The same story can take place in space, in medieval Europe, or in modern London and it would still be the same story._

For example: Romeo and Juliet. The basic story of two lovers separated by their families can be adapted to literally _any_ setting and still remain the same story. See?


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## Eevee

Butterfree said:


> It is right to call him not very original, but a plagiarist? Hardly.


I'm not calling him a plagiarist

just a terrible writer


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## Tailsy

Don't care about the books but the kid who played Eragon in the film was cute. :B

I read the first one and went meeeh.


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## Butterfree

Eevee said:


> I'm not calling him a plagiarist
> 
> just a terrible writer


Hence why my post was not directed at you; it was just expressing my irritation over how many people seem to honestly believe that Paolini painstakingly looks for medieval fantasy parallels to everything in the Star Wars films and then specifically edits some parts so that he can get away with it.


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## o_O

I don't care for it. I've never really enjoyed reading the Inheritance Cycle.
:P But I don't hate it.


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## Lorem Ipsum

Paolini might actually make something of himself in years to come, I think, and even if the story does have essentially the same things as Star Wars in it, I still enjoy reading the series, because who knows? Something different may happen.


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## opaltiger

Lorem Ipsum said:


> Paolini might actually make something of himself in years to come, I think, and even if the story does have essentially the same things as Star Wars in it, I still enjoy reading the series, because who knows? Something different may happen.


well obviously that isn't the only thing wrong with it. the writing is incredibly flat and emotionless, as are the characters; everything is over described; the vocabulary used is ridiculous (in Eldest we had quatrains, now we have a soliloquy). 

And so on.

edit: if someone can give me a good reason why an arrow augered past Eragon's face rather than flying past it I will shut up. (<midnight> "In aviation, the term augering in refers to the usual result of an unrecoverable spin (flight), in which the airplane hits the ground rotating like an auger.")


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## Crazy Linoone

opaltiger said:


> edit: if someone can give me a good reason why an arrow augered past Eragon's face rather than flying past it I will shut up. (<midnight> "In aviation, the term augering in refers to the usual result of an unrecoverable spin (flight), in which the airplane hits the ground rotating like an auger.")


It's to prove that Paolini can't write _at all_. And he should really stop using the thesaurus. 

Well, thanks to you guys, I can see that the new book isn't worth reading at all. Now I don't have to waste my time checking to see if Paolini improved at writing or not. 

I still can't see why people like this series...


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## surskitty

I can't see why anyone can manage to read his drivel.

You know, in Eldest, he specified that Eragon saw a flock of geese in a tree.

Think about that for a second.


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## Crazy Linoone

.....

A flock of geese... In a tree....


... I'm not sure what to say anymore....


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## surskitty

It's easy for many people to ignore the crappy writing style and that it's cliched and derivative as all hell; it's a lot harder to ignore that a flock of geese in a tree _makes no sense_.

You'd think he'd've realized the issue there.


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## Icalasari

Well, I have yet to read the third one, but when I read the second one, I noticed it was superior to the first one. Still cheesy and/or poor at parts, but hey, I still liked both books

I think that Paolini is getting better, personally. When he is done the Inheritance... Guess it would be a Quartet now, well, I think that he will likely start improving at a far faster rate (he can't really do a complete upheavel of his writing style in the middle of a series of books, as I am pretty sure that would disrupt the flow of it too much. Like if the Pokemon anime was like it currently is one episode, and then the next one it becomes drawn out, darker, Pokemon die, etc. Yeah, in that case, I would want a gradual change so I don't go, "What? Why the hell did they let a Magmortar light Pikachu on fire, beat it up horrendously, and make it barely alive, with what appears to be ten episodes before this arc is finished?")

Also, I don't remember any damn tree geese in Eldest


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## surskitty

Second one was more boring than the first one and had prose even more purple.  :|  Yaaay, thesaurus abuse (psst paolini i don't think that word means what you think it means)

What excerpts I've read do show that he has improved a bit, but not significantly.  He fairly obviously still has no idea what the hell he's doing, seeing as he apparently decided that retconning Eragon's one moment of self-doubt would be a good idea so he isn't ~tainted~ by being related to Morzan.


Tree geese were sometime around Elfland, I believe.  Would have to reread the bricks to find out exactly where but they were there.


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## Icalasari

surskitty said:


> Second one was more boring than the first one and had prose even more purple.  :|  Yaaay, thesaurus abuse (psst paolini i don't think that word means what you think it means)
> 
> What excerpts I've read do show that he has improved a bit, but not significantly.  He fairly obviously still has no idea what the hell he's doing, seeing as he apparently decided that retconning Eragon's one moment of self-doubt would be a good idea so he isn't ~tainted~ by being related to Morzan.
> 
> 
> Tree geese were sometime around Elfland, I believe.  Would have to reread the bricks to find out exactly where but they were there.


I will have to check that part... Tree Geese sound funny :3

Also, yeah, like I said, he will start improving at a far greater pace after he is done with the Inheritance Quartet, as it gives him a chance to overhaul his whole writing style then


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## surskitty

No, because he's been sheltered from criticism and told that his stuff is good.

I don't get the impression that he realizes that he _needs_ improvement.


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## Icalasari

Well, he will eventually get the idea


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## surskitty

Considering how freaking sheltered he is?  Don't count on it.

Also he's still a pompous ass.


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## Autumn

I read the first book a few years ago, and by the time I got Eldest I honestly couldn't be bothered to reread Eragon just to see wtf was going on in Eldest. D: It's been years since I read them, but if I recall there wasn't all that much background information in Eldest, hence why I felt the need to reread Eragon.

Not that I care. What I do hate is seeing people insist the Eragon/Twilight series are _epic win!_ and I must read them under their command. Come _on._ I did not like Twilight, now stop getting all over me (for that matter, _please_ stop obsessing over Twilight to begin with). ;~;

The thing that I find scary about the publishing of the Eragon and Twilight series is that I'm planning on being a writer myself. Now, I know obviously not everybody's going to like my books, but if I'm somehow ignorant about how much they suck, send them off to a publisher and _actually get them published_ (read: Eragon and Twilight got published despite being constantly criticized and being horrible to begin with)... I don't think that'd be very fun. Dx Which is why I'm going to send the books to just about everyone I know (my parents, Wands and Worlds, you guys, my friends, etc) to see if they suck or not before I publish them and realize what a mistake that was.

As far as I know, the plot (at least later in the series) is fairly original - the first few books have a bunch of dragons (because I _want_ to; don't automatically assume it's just like Eragon) going to find some hidden idol thing, one for each of the elemental dragon tribe things. Yeah, I know that's a bit overused, but it gets more interesting when they return to place the keys in the temple and the main character gets killed and the others jailed for eternity (no escape plan here, folks) when the dictator person (who has an ulterior motive for doing such, as is explained in the books) attacks them. It's my planned NaNo, so you can review it then, I guess. *shrug* But you can always look at the plot now and give suggestions for making it less overused if you have any...


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## surskitty

Eragon was self-published, you know.  It's just that somebody noticed that they could market it well.


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## Retsu

Out of curiosity, has Paolini ever stated his opinions of his own writing?


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## Abwayax

I'm fairly sure Paolini thinks his writing's good enough to warrant a trilogy.


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## surskitty

I don't recall.  He has, however, stated his opinions of his characterization.


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## Retsu

surskitty said:


> I don't recall.  He has, however, stated his opinions of his characterization.


What are they?


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## surskitty

Among other things, he has said multiple times that he is proud of how much of a strong character Arya is.  And how Eragon and Saphira are ~equals~.  And some other things that show a lack of alignment with reality.

... yeah.
... despite the whole "can't rescue herself out of a paper bag" thing.
... or that she's a jerk.


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## #1 bro

You know, it is quite difficult to have a realistic opinion of your own writing.


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## surskitty

This is true, but it's not difficult to refrain from praising yourself.


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## Crazy Linoone

surskitty said:


> Among other things, he has said multiple times that he is proud of how much of a strong character Arya is.  And how Eragon and Saphira are ~equals~.  And some other things that show a lack of alignment with reality.


Wait a second. Arya... Strong? Is that a typo, or is Paolini more fail than I previously thought he was? And I already had a really really bad opinion of him...



Leafpool said:


> Not that I care. What I do hate is seeing people insist the Eragon/Twilight series are _epic win!_ and I must read them under their command. Come _on._ I did not like Twilight, now stop getting all over me (for that matter, _please_ stop obsessing over Twilight to begin with). ;~;


I agree... There were so many people at my high school going around with the newest Inheritance book (Brigsinger or whatever it's called) and saying how awesome it is. And when I said that I don't like the series, they start going on and on about how awesome it is and how I should go read it. They also try to convince me that Eragon is not fail. More proof that America sucks.


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## Autumn

Crazy Linoone said:


> More proof that America sucks.


:D qft


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## Icalasari

Crazy Linoone said:


> More proof that America sucks.


You needed proof?

^^ Sorry, it's a thing of mine to bash the states


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## #1 bro

Crazy Linoone said:


> More proof that America sucks.


Forgive me, but I don't see how not realizing that Eragon is not a well-written and original book is a sign of idiocy. Maybe a sign of being uninformed, but surely anyone can make the mistake that it is a decent book. 

Also, America doesn't suck. America is a fine country.


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## Shiny Grimer

I love how you judge an entire country by a few people's taste in books.
Mhm.
Anti-americanism really bothers me. As I said before, there isn't a larger percentage of idiots in the States than anywhere else; they just happen to be an extremely vocal group. The % of idiots is no higher here than in Russia than in Benin.

My friend likes the Inheritance Cycle but can't understand why Eragon would be a Gary-Stu. She gets like, offended when I start to talk about some of the less favorable aspects of the book (hairless elves). Also, the whole 'We're really poor but waste some money on useless trinkets anyway' thing in the first book that really turned me off.

I don't have a very high opinion of this book or Twilight. Twilight seems like the ramblings of a high schooler and it doesn't interest me. However, the Twilight hate that goes on is so immature, I'd be ashamed to be part of that group. There are icons, shirts, and a whole lot of other shit _because someone dislikes a group and the majority happens to like it_.


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## OrangeAipom

Is Twilight that vampire stuff? I've heard about it. Don't know what to think about it, since I haven't read it.


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## Twilight Dragon

Hey, look, it's another thread entirely about bashing something I happen to like -_-


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## Retsu

Twilight Dragon said:


> Hey, look, it's another thread entirely about bashing something I happen to like -_-


There is a clear line between bashing and criticizing.


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## Negrek

> Hey, look, it's another thread entirely about bashing something I happen to like -_-


The directive in the first post was _discuss_ the Cycle, not talk about how we all just love it. If you're only interested in reading positive opinions about it, go start a fanclub or something. It can't be a discussion if everyone agrees with you.

Also see Retsu's post above.


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## Saith

Ugh! This is why I hate this site!

I mean, I love this site, but somehow, whenever I'm in the middle of a book I like, this site completely changes my oppinion of everything...

Like when I first read the Saga of Darren Shan... I was in the middle of the last book, then read something on here about what not to do in a fic, and my mind just clicked, and I had to force my way through to the end...

Now, I admit that because I downloaded Brisingr off of Scribd, I figured it might have been a fic or a fake, and it did read like a fan-fic, untill I verified it with my mates...

But still, I happen to like this book, so you don't insult the readers because the book is poorly written, just like you don't insult the book because the author's an ass.

But yeah, maybe I just shouldn't read any book discussions, because what you've been saying has put me off the book...


Grrr...:blank:


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## Retsu

Forgive us for prioritizing quality? =P


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## Ayame

This book (well, cycle)  and Twilight both make me deathly fear ever getting something published, for fear that it was awful.  What if people liked it and I became rich?
Let me never have an inspiring dream, ever.
Except I did, and was intending to write about a giant cannibalistic macaroni noodle who wore red glasses.  (I kid you not- my mind made it up.)
He was a great personality.
But what if he somehow morphs into Edward Cullen?


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## opaltiger

okay so I just finished Brisingr.

let's start with the positive points

there is marginally less purple prose! what there is is still terrible though. and uh the plot is deviating away from Star Wars slightly, although it is still ridiculously predictable. and um some of the characters are maybe 2.5 dimensional.

however this book could probably be done in 200 pages. the sheer amount of filler is astounding - entire chapters could be cut with no harm. Dialogue is still flat in most cases, there is a lot of exposition (including the obligatory "HERE LET ME REVEAL YOUR PARENTAGE IN EXCRUCIATING DETAIL" chapter). The politics are laughably naive. The chapter titles belong in a parody (yes I know this is nitpicking but "I Need A Sword!"? _what?_). did I mention how the plot was incredibly predictable? 



Spoiler: guess



HEY GUYS BROM IS ACTUALLY ERAGON'S DAD. ALSO YODA OROMIS DIES. speaking of, the dragon heart thing is such a cop-out: the wise old sage is dead but hey we can still speak to his equally wise old dragon whenever, never mind; there goes all conflict. the only thing that vaguely piqued my interest was the hermit dude; shame we got him for about half a page. and oh god the sword making chapter was almost as tedious as the saddlemaking one.



and hey guys let me make a few predictions

the last egg will hatch to Arya. The dragon will be male. see where this is going?


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## Diz

Well duh the egg will be male!



			
				Eldest page 649 said:
			
		

> ...it's because of _her_." He jabbed a finger at Saphira. "The dragon inside Galbatorix's last egg, the last dragon egg in the world, is male....


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## LitatheLighmosa

opaltiger said:


> the last egg will hatch to Arya. The dragon will be male. see where this is going?


Arya is too old. She's like, 100 and eggs hatch for only people around the age of 10-20. Actually READ something before you bash it, fool.

Also,



			
				Twilight Dragon said:
			
		

> Hey, look, it's another thread entirely about bashing something I happen to like -_-


My thoughts exactly; people, can't you just LAY THE FUCK OFF of stuff that some people actually *gasp* LIKE?!?!


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## Diz

THANK YOU!!!!!!


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## LitatheLighmosa

_Ditto_ said:


> THANK YOU!!!!!!


Ah, you don't really need to thank me. I've got a lot of practice from The Valley of Nightmare forums(God that place gets flamed a lot). It's easy.


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## CNiall

LitatheLighmosa said:


> My thoughts exactly; people, can't you just LAY THE FUCK OFF of stuff that some people actually *gasp* LIKE?!?!


You like it; we don't. We are providing perfectly valid reasons as to why we don't like it. We are not flaming it. If that offends you, it's really not our problem.

(also calling opaltiger a fool could be a pretty bad idea but nvm)


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## Harlequin

No, it's a discussion thread. People are discussing the good points (whatever they are) with the bad points.

You have to take the good with the bad and uh, of course it will hatch to Arya. Who else would it hatch to? Eragon + Arya, Sapphira + MALE DRAGON.

It's how it works.

plus uh opal has read the books.


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## Eevee

LitatheLighmosa said:


> My thoughts exactly; people, can't you just LAY THE FUCK OFF of stuff that some people actually *gasp* LIKE?!?!


stop liking things that are awful and this won't be a problem


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## LitatheLighmosa

Harlequin said:


> Who else would it hatch to?


A lot of other characters. If you will allow me a moment, I will dig up the list.

Ah, couldn't find the list, but I can compose one in my head.

1. Elva(Kinda unlikely; she's so young)
2. Nasuada(IMO, most likely.)
3. Alanna or Dusan(The two elf children)
4. New character

It's so unlikely that it will hatch for Arya. SO unlikely.


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## Diz

It also _might _hatch for Roran.


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## CNiall

LitatheLighmosa said:


> A lot of other characters. If you will allow me a moment, I will dig up the list.
> 
> Ah, couldn't find the list, but I can compose one in my head.
> 
> 1. Elva(Kinda unlikely; she's so young)
> 2. Nasuada(IMO, most likely.)
> 3. Alanna or Dusan(The two elf children)
> 4. New character
> 
> It's so unlikely that it will hatch for Arya. SO unlikely.


spectacular lack of reasons there; a++


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## Harlequin

see um

Paolini isn't exactly going for internal consistency is he? ARYA + ERAGON 4EVA is basically what he's doing. What better than having BOTH of them be the riders of the LAST TWO DRAGONS or JUST HAPPEN to be MALE AND FEMALE ZOMG DRAGONSEX.

or something. I don't really care because I haven't read the books.


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## opaltiger

LitatheLighmosa said:


> Arya is too old. She's like, 100 and eggs hatch for only people around the age of 10-20. Actually READ something before you bash it, fool.


yeah because Murtagh is totally less than twenty. of all the other candidates you listed, the two elf children were mentioned in passing in one of the final chapters in the penultimate book; having one of them be it would be rather anticlimactic. Elva is morally ambiguous, heaven forbid she get a dragon; Nasuada is out because of her age (I assume she's more than twenty; if not, wtf Paolini), according to you. For a new character, see my first point.

Arya is the only logical choice, and of _course_ Paolini is going to go for the option where everything fits and ends up happily; he is that sort of writer.

And yes, please don't call me a fool, particularly when I quite clearly have read the book.



> My thoughts exactly; people, can't you just LAY THE FUCK OFF of stuff that some people actually *gasp* LIKE?!?!


No. Everyone has said this, but it bears repeating: this is a _discussion_ thread. In which we _discuss_ the series. Not heap praise on it. I happen to think it's not a particularly good series, and I've said why; all you've done is rant and rave about how I should shut up.


----------



## Diz

opaltiger said:


> Not heap praise on it.


Likewise we shouldn't dump criticism on it by the ton.


----------



## CNiall

_Ditto_ said:


> Likewise we shouldn't dump criticism on it by the ton.


Perhaps it has more flaws than positive points in his eyes (and those of many other people)? _you never know_


----------



## Diz

Then that is his opinion and if he would kindly not squash anyone else's....


----------



## opaltiger

> Likewise we shouldn't dump criticism on it by the ton.


I have pointed out what I thought was good (or at least an improvement). If there is not very much of that, well, not my problem.



> Then that is his opinion and if he would kindly not squash anyone else's....


I am not trying to squash anyone's opinion. In fact, I would love to hear your opinion, as long as it goes beyond "it's awesome!". I like discussion. If you could tell me why you like the series, perhaps we could engage in some.


----------



## Diz

_Ditto_ said:


> The reason I like the books so much is because I live in the smallest town in Indiana. Our school's graduating class is about 70 students... _on a good year_. Our library is tiny. I have this is my seccond year at the school, and I've pretty much read all of the fantasy books worth reading. I love good, thick books.


----------



## opaltiger

That's still not telling me what about the book is good (except that it's long, which is a pretty terrible reason to like a book). So you have a limited selection; okay, but still, surely there was something about the book that made you go "oh, hey, I like this"? I mean, just because it's one of the few books you can read doesn't mean you will automatically like it.


----------



## OrangeAipom

Well, since has a limited selection, he doesn't know of better books.



Saith said:


> Like when I first read the Saga of Darren Shan... I was in the middle of the last book, then read something on here about what not to do in a fic, and my mind just clicked, and I had to force my way through to the end...


Wait, what did it say?


----------



## Diz

1)Dragons
2)Magic
3)The setting
4)Elves
5)Dwarves
6)The fact that it was written by a younger person, and not by some old dead guy.

Never heard of the Saga of Darren Shan.


----------



## opaltiger

> 1)Dragons
> 2)Magic
> 3)The setting
> 4)Elves
> 5)Dwarves


All of these have been done to death in other, better books. I refuse to believe your library has Inheritance and not some of these (off the top of my head: Robin Hobb, Anne McCaffrey, George R. R. Martin, _Tolkien_).

But this is all setting; is there nothing about the characters, the story, the writing that you like?



> 6)The fact that it was written by a younger person, and not by some old dead guy.


How does this influence your opinion at all? If you hadn't know Paolini was sixteen when he wrote Eragon, would you have liked it less? Also, this is a terrible attitude; why should books by "old dead guys" be necessarily bad?


----------



## Diz

They aren't, just that it is easier to make sense of what Paolini is writing. Tolkien has so many forever long conversations between characters he has never introduced before the conversation. Yes, our library has Anne and Tolkien, but none of the others. I did in fact like the characters in the Cycle. As for Arya not being a very strong character, I'm pretty sure that Christopher meant that her emotions ect. were very real. Not her physical strenght. I do admit that the characters in Brisingr were a little flat, people are talking and only when he describes how they say whatever do you realize that they were angry.


----------



## LitatheLighmosa

LitatheLighmosa said:


> Arya is too old. She's like, 100 and eggs hatch for only people *around* the age of 10-20.


Note the word AROUND


----------



## opaltiger

LitatheLighmosa said:


> Note the word AROUND


Fine, then, we can get away with a little over twenty. Maybe thirty. A hundred at the outside.

Also elves don't age quite the same way and it is in no way a reach to assume that Arya is perfectly qualified to become a dragon rider. Besides, it is blindingly obvious that AryaxEragon is going to happen and for that, the age thing has to work out, and if it does then logically it works out for the dragon, too. Or maybe Arya can be the first rider over the age of whatever. We've had no shortage of improbable things happening, after all.



> They aren't, just that it is easier to make sense of what Paolini is writing.


Tell me truthfully: did you know, when you read the books, the meaning of the word quatrain? Soliloquy? and look I have a whole list, complete with page numbers.



> Tolkien has so many forever long conversations between characters he has never introduced before the conversation.


My point was that Tolkien invented elves the way they are most commonly portrayed today. He is something of a tedious writer though, yes.



> Yes, our library has Anne and Tolkien, but none of the others.


What seriously no Robin Hobb? :( I thought she was more popular than that, dammit.



> I did in fact like the characters in the Cycle. As for Arya not being a very strong character, I'm pretty sure that Christopher meant that her emotions ect. were very real. Not her physical strenght. I do admit that the characters in Brisingr were a little flat, people are talking and only when he describes how they say whatever do you realize that they were angry.


Okay, let me give an example here. Eragon has killed hundreds of people, yes? And yet, somehow, he isn't bothered by it until book three in which he has one disturbing dream then promptly forgets about it again. Is this a dynamic character? Can you honestly say Eragon is a realistic character?


----------



## LitatheLighmosa

In case you never noticed, it also bothered him in Eldest. It didn't bother him in Eragon because he hadn't killed humans, only Urgals, and he didn't know at that time that Urgals are equal to humans.


----------



## Exdeath

I'm pretty sure that somebody who enjoys thinking about killing other species _after_  the person learns about their culture and all doesn't consider them equal to his or her own race. He has to search the minds of the kull who join their army to assure himself that they don't want to kill him.


----------



## Eevee

_Ditto_ said:


> Then that is his opinion and if he would kindly not squash anyone else's....


it infuriates me that you would try to pass this off as *squashing your opinion*

all he's doing is expressing quite clearly what _he_ thinks of this series.  if your opinion feels emasculated at the sight of his, _get a better goddamn opinion_

he is not trampling your right to free fucking speech; he has just actually put some thought into what he likes and doesn't like and is sharing it, rather than going "whee I like dragons lol!" and leaving it at that.


----------



## opaltiger

> In case you never noticed, it also bothered him in Eldest. It didn't bother him in Eragon because he hadn't killed humans, only Urgals, and he didn't know at that time that Urgals are equal to humans.


My point is that he never _dwells_ on it. Sure, Paolini realises maybe he should add in a passage about it, but it doesn't change anything - afterwards, everything is back to normal. There is no development.


----------



## Diz

Robin Hobb is a girl??? When you first mentioned her, I was like "Robin Hobb? never heard of him" now I'm like..."Woah" I'm not sure our school's library dosen't have her, but she's definantly not on the most checked out list.



Eevee said:


> _get a better goddamn opinion_


There you go. Squashing me!

Did anyone notice that Eevee is pretty much the only active person on this thread cursing?

Why would someone go further than "I like the subject of this story, it has an different style of writing that I'm not used to and I like, and the characters are interesting."?  I understand if it's a school thing, but I don't think a teacher would have his/her students read Inheritance, it's too long to be pratical.


----------



## Negrek

> I like the subject of this story, it has an different style of writing that I'm not used to and I like, and the characters are interesting


It's hardly very specific. That's like being asked why you bought a car and you replying, "It had a lot of nice features." Fair enough if you're just replying to an idle question, but if you're trying to defend to someone why your car is any good, that's never going to fly. 

What is it about the writing style that you like? _How_ are the characters interesting? And so on.


----------



## Teh Ebil Snorlax

Furretsu said:


> Here's a whole site dedicated to it.


Anti-Shurtugal? They couldn't argue their way out of an English class with a stormtrooper death squad at their command. They have blatant oversight in at least two articles (which I've pointed out to no response or acknowledgement) and many of their other articles include fact-twisting and paraphrasing.



surskitty said:


> Considering how freaking sheltered he is?  Don't count on it.
> 
> Also he's still a pompous ass.


Oh, do you know him personally?3



Crazy Linoone said:


> Wait a second. Arya... Strong? Is that a typo, or is Paolini more fail than I previously thought he was? And I already had a really really bad opinion of him...
> 
> 
> 
> I agree... There were so many people at my high school going around with the newest Inheritance book (Brigsinger or whatever it's called) and saying how awesome it is. And when I said that I don't like the series, they start going on and on about how awesome it is and how I should go read it. They also try to convince me that Eragon is not fail. More proof that America sucks.





CNiall said:


> You like it; we don't. We are providing perfectly valid reasons as to why we don't like it. We are not flaming it. If that offends you, it's really not our problem.


I've used Crazy Linoone's post as an example. He calls Arya a bad character without giving any reasons why and cites his reasons for hating the book...and America, oddly enough, because people at his school liked it and recommended it.



opaltiger said:


> yeah because Murtagh is totally less than twenty. of all the other candidates you listed, the two elf children were mentioned in passing in one of the final chapters in the penultimate book; having one of them be it would be rather anticlimactic. Elva is morally ambiguous, heaven forbid she get a dragon; Nasuada is out because of her age (I assume she's more than twenty; if not, wtf Paolini), according to you. For a new character, see my first point.
> 
> Arya is the only logical choice, and of _course_ Paolini is going to go for the option where everything fits and ends up happily; he is that sort of writer.


Actually opal, I'm pretty sure that Arya is out, as she has handled the egg previously and it hasn't hatched. Also, Nasuada is in fact Eragon's age.


----------



## Autumn

Teh Ebil Snorlax said:


> ...and America, oddly enough, because people at his school liked it and recommended it.


I can't speak for CL, but I live in America and thus have basis behind my agreeing with her hating of America. :V


----------



## surskitty

Teh Ebil Snorlax said:


> Oh, do you know him personally?3


No, but one can get quite a decent idea of what someone is like from interviews and so on.  If he doesn't make the effort to seem like anything other than a pompous ass in his public appearances, then what exactly are people expected to conclude?


----------



## Teh Ebil Snorlax

Possible reasons for acting like a pompous ass:
1) He's nervous and unsure of himself and is getting his words out wrong.
2) His coddling parents have made him overconfident in his writing ability.
3) He is in fact a pompous ass.

Personally, I'm inclined to go with 2). Maybe he's overcondifent in his writing ability, but that doesn't make someone a pompous ass. If you, surskitty, were overconfident about your (theoretical) guitar-playing skills, that wouldn't make you a pompous ass, would it?


----------



## opaltiger

> Anti-Shurtugal? They couldn't argue their way out of an English class with a stormtrooper death squad at their command.


this indicates to me that you have not read a single article on the site 



> They have blatant oversight in at least two articles (which I've pointed out to no response or acknowledgement) and many of their other articles include fact-twisting and paraphrasing.


specifics?



> Actually opal, I'm pretty sure that Arya is out, as she has handled the egg previously and it hasn't hatched.


what when



> Also, Nasuada is in fact Eragon's age.


... wtf Paolini


----------



## Exdeath

Also, we're talking about the third egg, i.e. the one Galby has.


----------



## surskitty

Teh Ebil Snorlax said:


> Personally, I'm inclined to go with 2). Maybe he's overcondifent in his writing ability, but that doesn't make someone a pompous ass. If you, surskitty, were overconfident about your (theoretical) guitar-playing skills, that wouldn't make you a pompous ass, would it?


If I was not only overconfident but vocal about it, yes, it _would_ make me a pompous ass.  If I stopped being overconfident about it, then I would no longer be a pompous ass.


----------



## Harlequin

you know

it occurs to me that

*who the fuck cares* about Paolini because god damn it he's a twat. Like the books all you want, just realise _why_ they're literary shit.


----------



## Teh Ebil Snorlax

opaltiger said:


> specifics? http://www.anti-shurtugal.com/wordpress/?p=38 47th Comment


----------



## Butterfree

Huh. I don't really get your arguments there. The article is arguing that the books don't appear to give any good, objective reason why Galbatorix ought to be overthrown or why the dragon rider regime was any better; all you do is attempt to counter a couple of minor points, and kind of fail at that. At least one of your arguments (can't say much about the others since I haven't actually read the books) is just plain "huh":



> First of all, just because someone you lot think was great didn’t mind slavery and was a racist, doesn’t make it right.


How in the world were they arguing that slavery and racism were _right_? They were saying that even the best of people in uninformed times were racist and supported slavery, which is very true - the Empire supporting slave trade does not say anything about its relative morality unless the times truly are informed enough for the view to be widely condemned while they still choose to cling to it.

The others are basically "I came to this conclusion from the book", without any quotes or examples of why you would come to this conclusion. How do you expect to convince anyone with that?


----------



## opaltiger

Well I was looking more for specifics about their supposed inability to argue their way out of English class, but let's look at this comment.



> First of all, just because someone you lot think was great didn’t mind slavery and was a racist, doesn’t make it right.


The point was that Eragon is definitely not set in a society equivalent to ours. Thus, things like slavery would logically be more acceptable than they are now, as they were in Jefferson's time. 



> Second of all, no, the Empire is not in fact evil, I believe that point was addressed breifly by Murtagh in Eragon. It is safe to assume that the Empire itself is a democracy, but Galbatorix is controlling it, which is why Galbatorix’s Empire is an autocracy.


The Empire is a democracy but it's an autocracy. What? What are you even trying to say? The core concept of democracy is that the people elect their leaders. Clearly this is not the case with the Empire.



> Third of all, the elves don’t find other races inferior, they revere dragons and they have a sketchy but equal relationship with the dwarves and humans.


"Sketchy but equal"? Have you been reading the same books? At every turn, the elves are arrogant and snobbish; admittedly a staple of elves in fantasy in general, but the point stands. Sure, they treat with other races because they have to, but I get the strong feeling they'd really rather not.



> In fact, the only racist elf is Vanir.


No, he's the only openly and blatantly racist elf.



> Fourth of all, you frequently say that everyone has the right to an opinion. So the elves have the right to their opinion, which I share, that following a religion is foolish.


The point was that the elves are convinced their view is right and take a condescending attitude to everyone else's views (see also: arrogant). In this case I certainly agree with them, but it still makes them condescending.



> Also, it is stated that Galbatorix increased the size of the Empire when he took over.


see also 





> but it’s generally agreed that an Empire has to have more than one ethnic group under its control, which the Alagaesian Empire does not.


----------



## Teh Ebil Snorlax

Fine, bad example, I was in a rush to get out of my IT class. These are some examples of how Anti-Shur'tugal, when faced with refuting evidence, completely ignore it:
http://www.anti-shurtugal.com/wordpress/?p=43
Comments 30.

http://www.anti-shurtugal.com/wordpress/?p=18
Comments 44, 46/7 (they're the same point, but bad links) and I would say 60 and 61 but they haven't really had a chance to ignore them yet. Also:



opaltiger said:


> The point was that Eragon is definitely not set in a society equivalent to ours. Thus, things like slavery would logically be more acceptable than they are now, as they were in Jefferson's time.


Or that's how you interpreted it. They said that 'Jefferson[,] one of the ten greatest President of the United States [...] owned African slaves and believed that black people were “inherently inferior” to white people, and didn’t deserve civil rights or liberties." 



opaltiger said:


> The Empire is a democracy but it's an autocracy. What? What are you even trying to say? The core concept of democracy is that the people elect their leaders. Clearly this is not the case with the Empire.


I was trying to distinguish between the Empire in itself and Galbatorix's Empire.



opaltiger said:


> "Sketchy but equal"? Have you been reading the same books? At every turn, the elves are arrogant and snobbish; admittedly a staple of elves in fantasy in general, but the point stands. Sure, they treat with other races because they have to, but I get the strong feeling they'd really rather not.





opaltiger said:


> No, he's the only openly and blatantly racist elf.


So what you're saying is that because one elf is openly and blatanly racist and because you have a generalised view of elves, you can say that the elves in Inheritance are all racist and snobbish. Did not the elves dance and drink merrily with Orik, compliment him for his craftsmanship and is Orik not good friends with the elf-smith Rhunon? All of the elves but Vanir are warm and opening to Eragon, even before his transformation.



opaltiger said:


> The point was that the elves are convinced their view is right and take a condescending attitude to everyone else's views (see also: arrogant). In this case I certainly agree with them, but it still makes them condescending.


Again, you're generalising. Arya is likely the only applicable example when she was dealing with the Dwarven priest but she was angry that the Church was controlling the money and that they were spending so much on statues of their gods instead of more important things like helping the poor or disabled. If you try to use Oromis as an example, he states his beliefs simply and calmly, its Eragon that acts indignant at the thought of atheism, not Oromis at the thought of theism. And if we try to use Vanir, well Vanir is a condascending arrogant racist bastard.



opaltiger said:


> see also


Yes? Are you saying that there's only one ethnicity in the Empire? Let's see, well there are the Kuastans, Brom's people, there's Nasuada's people (they're not Surdans), there's the general Alagaesian people, there's the Hadarac people (like Torkenbrand), which leaves us with 4 ethnic groups minimum.


----------



## opaltiger

Teh Ebil Snorlax said:


> Fine, bad example, I was in a rush to get out of my IT class. These are some examples of how Anti-Shur'tugal, when faced with refuting evidence, completely ignore it:
> http://www.anti-shurtugal.com/wordpress/?p=43
> Comments 30.





> There is in fact a reason given for their fading, but you clearly decided to give that paragraph a skip eh? The spell that connects the dragons, elves and humans. When Galbatorix obliterated the dragons, he damaged the elves and humans, causing them to decline. It’s been mentioned a multitude of times in the books.


I am guessing they are ignoring you either because a) they don't read the comments or b) you aren't actually quoting the book.



> http://www.anti-shurtugal.com/wordpress/?p=18
> Comments 44, 46/7 (they're the same point, but bad links) and I would say 60 and 61 but they haven't really had a chance to ignore them yet.


First off:



			
				wiki said:
			
		

> The term flamberge, meaning "flame blade", is an undulating blade found on both long blades and rapiers.





> Anyway, you’ve made an error in your arguments. It isn’t that magic cannot be used in Du Weldenvarden, it says that items cannot be magically passed in or out. As for them being inside Du Weldenvarden, I think you should consider that Urgals stack dead bodies, as they did in Yazuac. The ambush happened around the time that Arya passed out of Du Weldenvarden, otherwise the fire that Durza started from a cliff in the Spine. The likelyhood is that the ambush occured just outside Du Weldenvarden and the bodies were stacked a few metres away inside Du Weldenvarden. Not that I can prove that to be true myself.


The argument still stands; why couldn't they have just walked a few feet out of the forest, sent the egg on its merry way, then gone back? Just because the spellcaster would have to travel a small distance does not invalidate the base argument, which is that carrying the egg physically makes no sense.



> Or that's how you interpreted it. They said that 'Jefferson[,] one of the ten greatest President of the United States [...] owned African slaves and believed that black people were “inherently inferior” to white people, and didn’t deserve civil rights or liberties."


You're quoting out of context. The next line clearly indicates that the point is about time periods, not individuals: "And this wasn’t even in the Middle Ages, where Eragon is nominally set."



> I was trying to distinguish between the Empire in itself and Galbatorix's Empire.


... what



> So what you're saying is that because one elf is openly and blatanly racist and because you have a generalised view of elves, you can say that the elves in Inheritance are all racist and snobbish. Did not the elves dance and drink merrily with Orik, compliment him for his craftsmanship and is Orik not good friends with the elf-smith Rhunon? All of the elves but Vanir are warm and opening to Eragon, even before his transformation.


I am saying that based off my observations and the vibe I got from the text, the elves are arrogant and snobbish (at no point do I say racist). Your mileage may vary.



> Again, you're generalising. Arya is likely the only applicable example when she was dealing with the Dwarven priest but she was angry that the Church was controlling the money and that they were spending so much on statues of their gods instead of more important things like helping the poor or disabled. If you try to use Oromis as an example, he states his beliefs simply and calmly, its Eragon that acts indignant at the thought of atheism, not Oromis at the thought of theism. And if we try to use Vanir, well Vanir is a condascending arrogant racist bastard.


And all the preaching about vegetarianism?



> Yes? Are you saying that there's only one ethnicity in the Empire? Let's see, well there are the Kuastans, Brom's people, there's Nasuada's people (they're not Surdans), there's the general Alagaesian people, there's the Hadarac people (like Torkenbrand), which leaves us with 4 ethnic groups minimum.


Fair point, but the fact remains that you're arguing a ridiculous technicality which ignores the point of the article you were criticising.


----------



## Teh Ebil Snorlax

opaltiger said:


> I am guessing they are ignoring you either because a) they don't read the comments or b) you aren't actually quoting the book.


Well it's not a) because I've seen them to respond to people who haven't argued against them. So probably b). If by b) you mean that I didn't include a quote, not meaning by b) the information I presented was incorrect.



opaltiger said:


> First off:


Yes, I know that. A flamberge is a type of blade, not a rapier. That was my point.



opaltiger said:


> The argument still stands; why couldn't they have just walked a few feet out of the forest, sent the egg on its merry way, then gone back? Just because the spellcaster would have to travel a small distance does not invalidate the base argument, which is that carrying the egg physically makes no sense.


Actually, there is nothing to stop something _leaving_ Ellesméra, that was a mistake on my part, but the problem is created when trying to send it back. Not only are only the elves strong enough for such a long-distance transportation, but it's possible for a second ward to be erected in the vicinity of the transportation. Durza, for example, would simply need to be in the general area of the egg's transportation and he could stop it leaving that area. Therefore, it would be more logical to send a group of highly skilled elves to transport it both ways, as only elves or those with elves as their guides can hope to find their way through the forest.



opaltiger said:


> You're quoting out of context. The next line clearly indicates that the point is about time periods, not individuals: "And this wasn’t even in the Middle Ages, where Eragon is nominally set."


Fair enough, I'll digress on that one.



opaltiger said:


> ... what


Let me elaborate. Prior to Galbatorix siezing power, the Empire still existed, then known as the Broddrig Kingdom. Given the technological timeframe (if Anti Shur'tugal can make fictional-to-factual timeframe guesses to work out what medieval timeframe Inheritance is based in, so can I), the Broddrig Kingdom was most likely a constitutional monarchy, in other words, a democracy with a monarch figurehead. That is the Empire in itself.

When Galbatorix siezed power, he did just that, he's an absolute monarch, and without a lesser court of nobility or a powerful religion, he is in full control, making Galbatorix's Empire an autocracy.



opaltiger said:


> I am saying that based off my observations and the vibe I got from the text, the elves are arrogant and snobbish (at no point do I say racist). Your mileage may vary.


Fair enough.



opaltiger said:


> And all the preaching about vegetarianism?


They don't necessarily preach, but they enforce it while in Ellesméra and they expect a Dragon Rider to follow suit. Admittedly the second instance appears pressured at first, but Eragon makes the choice deliberately.



opaltiger said:


> Fair point, but the fact remains that you're arguing a ridiculous technicality which ignores the point of the article you were criticising.


The point of the article: To question two things: One: Paolini's usage of the term Empire and the misusage of words co-relating to his usage, and Two: Paolini's stance on the Empire being evil.

I think I was arguing against the first point with the point on multiple ethnicities, lands added and the fact that 'the Empire' is actually the Broddrig Kingdom, which agrees with their statement that the title might not be changed so as to keep with tradition, as with George III.

As for the second point, mustn't an autocracy ruled by an inherently evil man be inherently evil? Galbatorix ordered the slaughter of a village because the Varden organised an ambush on his military's supplies. He destroyed the Dragon Riders, who were able to keep peace in Alagaesia for who knows how many years, it's irrelevant that they were a military junta, they were benevolent, Galbatorix is malevolent, he ended a peace that had lasted centuries. Galbatorix is the Empire, Galbatorix is evil, therefore the Empire is evil.


----------



## opaltiger

Teh Ebil Snorlax said:


> Well it's not a) because I've seen them to respond to people who haven't argued against them. So probably b). If by b) you mean that I didn't include a quote, not meaning by b) the information I presented was incorrect.


I did mean the former, yes.



> Yes, I know that. A flamberge is a type of blade, not a rapier. That was my point.


The picture you linked to was misleading, though, since a flamberge _can_ refer to a rapier.



> Actually, there is nothing to stop something _leaving_ Ellesméra, that was a mistake on my part, but the problem is created when trying to send it back. Not only are only the elves strong enough for such a long-distance transportation, but it's possible for a second ward to be erected in the vicinity of the transportation. Durza, for example, would simply need to be in the general area of the egg's transportation and he could stop it leaving that area. Therefore, it would be more logical to send a group of highly skilled elves to transport it both ways, as only elves or those with elves as their guides can hope to find their way through the forest.


If they were to transport it from one of their strongholds to a remote place on the fringe of the forest, it still seems to be a lot safer than traversing the entire continent.



> Let me elaborate. Prior to Galbatorix siezing power, the Empire still existed, then known as the Broddrig Kingdom. Given the technological timeframe (if Anti Shur'tugal can make fictional-to-factual timeframe guesses to work out what medieval timeframe Inheritance is based in, so can I), the Broddrig Kingdom was most likely a constitutional monarchy, in other words, a democracy with a monarch figurehead. That is the Empire in itself.


Not really; given the medieval timeframe we seem to be agreeing on, an absolute monarchy would be more likely. Plus this is all assumption on your part.



> When Galbatorix siezed power, he did just that, he's an absolute monarch, and without a lesser court of nobility or a powerful religion, he is in full control, making Galbatorix's Empire an autocracy.


The article raises a good point: there is no way he can possibly control the entire empire himself, particularly given how reclusive he seems to be. Plus, there quite clearly _are_ lesser nobility; see the closing chapters of Brisingr.



> The point of the article: To question two things: One: Paolini's usage of the term Empire and the misusage of words co-relating to his usage, and Two: Paolini's stance on the Empire being evil.
> 
> I think I was arguing against the first point with the point on multiple ethnicities, lands added and the fact that 'the Empire' is actually the Broddrig Kingdom, which agrees with their statement that the title might not be changed so as to keep with tradition, as with George III.


I would say the point of the article was solely to question the Empire's villainy, with the word use thrown in as a side note.



> As for the second point, mustn't an autocracy ruled by an inherently evil man be inherently evil?


The point is that we have no evidence that Galbatorix is inherently evil. Plus there's the matter of his ability to govern the whole Empire, as I mentioned above.



> Galbatorix ordered the slaughter of a village because the Varden organised an ambush on his military's supplies. He destroyed the Dragon Riders, who were able to keep peace in Alagaesia for who knows how many years, it's irrelevant that they were a military junta, they were benevolent, Galbatorix is malevolent, he ended a peace that had lasted centuries. Galbatorix is the Empire, Galbatorix is evil, therefore the Empire is evil.


Sure, he's done some questionable things, no doubt there. Yeah, calling them "evil" isn't too much of an overstep. The point is, as a _ruler_ is he bad? Because if we judge a ruler by the actions e took to gain control, many would be quite terrible indeed. Without anything from Galbatorix's point of view, we do not know his motives or his thought process, and thus there is no way for us to judge whether or not he deserves to be called evil.


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## Teh Ebil Snorlax

opaltiger said:


> The picture you linked to was misleading, though, since a flamberge _can_ refer to a rapier.


Granted



opaltiger said:


> If they were to transport it from one of their strongholds to a remote place on the fringe of the forest, it still seems to be a lot safer than traversing the entire continent.


But Farthen Dur was the only Varden stronghold at the time, meaning they had to traverse the continent. If Durza could pinpoint where Arya and he guard would pass, it wouldn't be beyond him to find a transport location.



opaltiger said:


> Not really; given the medieval timeframe we seem to be agreeing on, an absolute monarchy would be more likely. Plus this is all assumption on your part.


Yes, it is all assumption, Paolini is giving us little details on the Empire's workings, we have to make assumptions.



opaltiger said:


> The article raises a good point: there is no way he can possibly control the entire empire himself, particularly given how reclusive he seems to be. Plus, there quite clearly _are_ lesser nobility; see the closing chapters of Brisingr.


Admittedly, I haven't read Brisingr, I've got the entire plot but I haven't procured the funds necessary to buy all the books I'm looking at yet.



opaltiger said:


> I would say the point of the article was solely to question the Empire's villainy, with the word use thrown in as a side note.


I would say the premise of the article was to question the Empire's villainy, but with the amount of time given to word usage and requirements for being an Empire, as well as irrelevant, unnecessary passing comments about the elves, they more or less devoted only half the article to their main point.



opaltiger said:


> The point is that we have no evidence that Galbatorix is inherently evil. Plus there's the matter of his ability to govern the whole Empire, as I mentioned above.





opaltiger said:


> Sure, he's done some questionable things, no doubt there. Yeah, calling them "evil" isn't too much of an overstep. The point is, as a _ruler_ is he bad? Because if we judge a ruler by the actions e took to gain control, many would be quite terrible indeed. Without anything from Galbatorix's point of view, we do not know his motives or his thought process, and thus there is no way for us to judge whether or not he deserves to be called evil.


Few evil figures have an exposed thought process, no one knows what Sauron's thought process was and yet, it's safe to say that he is inherently evil. Also, we are given brief insight into Galbatorix's mindset when he orders Murtagh to destroy the aforementioned village. He curses and scorns the Varden in fury before ordering the destruction of a village where some Varden members stayed, a situation which applies to any number of towns, village and even cities. These were Galbatorix's actions _ as a ruler_. He ordered the slaughter of his own citizens, who could well have been totally oblivious to the Varden in their midst. That is an inherently evil act. He was not protecting his Empire in this act, he was simply acting out on his own blind fury.


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## Harlequin

No Sauron was corrupted by an evil Vala named Melkor. He desired dominion over the people of Middle Earth and he really was evil. He was a corrupted Maia spirit much like Gandalf was an uncorrupted Maia spirit. We know Sauron's motivation and thought processes pretty well actually.


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## Teh Ebil Snorlax

Well that's got me beat.


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## Music Dragon

If you're interested in Sauron, _The Silmarillion_ provides a little more insight than LotR.


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## Teh Ebil Snorlax

Thanks MD, I've been meaning to read that.


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## opaltiger

Teh Ebil Snorlax said:


> But Farthen Dur was the only Varden stronghold at the time, meaning they had to traverse the continent. If Durza could pinpoint where Arya and he guard would pass, it wouldn't be beyond him to find a transport location.


I still don't see why they couldn't teleport the egg between it and, say, the eastern fringe of the forest. I mean, how is riding across the entire country meant to be in any way safer?



> Yes, it is all assumption, Paolini is giving us little details on the Empire's workings, we have to make assumptions.


What details?



> He curses and scorns the Varden in fury before ordering the destruction of a village where some Varden members stayed, a situation which applies to any number of towns, village and even cities. These were Galbatorix's actions  as a ruler. He ordered the slaughter of his own citizens, who could well have been totally oblivious to the Varden in their midst. That is an inherently evil act. He was not protecting his Empire in this act, he was simply acting out on his own blind fury.


Well, no, it is protecting the Empire. Rebels want to overthrow the empire. Destroying possible safe havens is in the best interests of protecting your empire. Yes, I get your point, killing civilians etc etc. It is still not _inherently evil_. There is nothing that suggests, beyond the killing of civilians - which, by the way, was carried out by henchman; there is no proof that the orders came from the King himself - that Galbatorix is not an excellent ruler.


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## foreign contaminant

i remember reading eragon in eighth grade; i thought it was alright. i picked up eldest immediately after that and i thought it was _terrible_. i'm not going anywhere near the new book.


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## Icalasari

I wanted to comment on the age issue:

I thought they were just brought to the eggs as children so training could start as early as possible. I did not pick up ANYTHING on an age limit, just that the dragon inside the egg chose their rider


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## Teh Ebil Snorlax

opaltiger said:


> I still don't see why they couldn't teleport the egg between it and, say, the eastern fringe of the forest. I mean, how is riding across the entire country meant to be in any way safer?


Because Durza, or even Galbatorix for that matter, is magically powerful enough to stop the egg mid-transport. Let's say we have the Varden at Point A, the Elves at Point B (outside Du Weldenvarden) and Durza and Galbatorix at Point C.

What you're thinking is this:

A---> --->B
____C
What I'm thinking is this:
A--->|___B
____C



opaltiger said:


> What details?


That Galbatorix is King. That's really the only detail.



opaltiger said:


> Well, no, it is protecting the Empire. Rebels want to overthrow the empire. Destroying possible safe havens is in the best interests of protecting your empire. Yes, I get your point, killing civilians etc etc. It is still not _inherently evil_. There is nothing that suggests, beyond the killing of civilians - which, by the way, was carried out by henchman; there is no proof that the orders came from the King himself - that Galbatorix is not an excellent ruler.


But the Varden are not threatening the citizens of the Empire, they are only threatening Galbatorix's control. Admittedly, they want to replace the Empire with a Republic, but the point still stands, they are not threatening the citizens. And if Galbatorix was to destroy safe havens, he's have to destroy Teirm, his most important port. Also, the scene in question is in fact of Galbatorix himself, ordering Murtagh, in person, to have the village and all its inhabitants wiped from the face of Alagaesia.


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## Harlequin

He's protecting the Empire. Eragon and the guys are _domestic terrorists_. Galbatorix is doing what he needs to do to stop them from performing their coup.


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## Teh Ebil Snorlax

So wait, there's this village where, as far as he knows, and it's never made fact, a couple of Varden members, might, have stayed, in the past, at a time unrelated to the sabotage that has just happened. And he's protecting the Empire by slaughtering all its inhabitants, who probably had no idea that any member of the Varden had ever stayed there? 

Then he goes on to destroy Carvahall because Eragon...lived down the road from it? He didn't even live in Carvahall, he lives off down the valley. And no threat was coming from Carvahall, it was not a Varden safe haven, yet still he has it completely obliterated. 

And does it not seem an inherently evil act to almost bring a race (Dragons) to extinction, just because he lost his original? He had _every living dragon_ except Shruikan, Glaedr and the steeds of the Forsworn killed. He started one of the most brutal wars in the history of Alagaesia, ruining thousands of years of peace. Because he wasn't allowed to have a new dragon.


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## Exdeath

He didn't originally want Carvahall destroyed; the Ra'zac were coming for Roran. The whole 'destroy the villagers' act came when the villagers attacked attacked them (killing a soldier), meaning the villagers are aiding a possible traitor. Even afterward, the Ra'zac don't outright kill them all for treason and actually _make an offer_ to the villagers; granted, it's not a pleasant one, but considering treason was punishable by death in medieval times, it's a lot more than what typical commanders would've done.


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## Teh Ebil Snorlax

According to my copy, he sent not only the Ra'zac, but a unit of Imperial soldiers to attack Carvahall and sieze Roran. Notice the word attack. Naturally, the villagers are less than happy about being attacked and attacked back. Then they were indeed given that offer. Which would you have taken? Lifelong slavery or keep fighting, when you have a chance to escape?


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## Exdeath

The unit was not sent to attack Carvahall, only to seize Roran. I believe he discussed this with one of that blacksmith's sons in the Spine. The soldiers did seem to have poor discipline and the Ra'zac didn't care all that much, yes, but they only launched an open assault on Carvahall after the villagers' attack.

Which reminds me. When everyone is about to leave Carvahall, some people stay behind, apparently to give the imperial soldiers a fight they'll never forget. They choose certain death over possible escape. Which is not very intelligent.


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## Teh Ebil Snorlax

Well then, they were just protecting Roran. Roran was no threat to the Empire, but Galbatorix sent two dangerous and unpredictable human-eating predators and a platoon of soldiers to sieze him. The villagers were betrayed by their own King and they did their best to prevent Roran from being captured. If you're government sent two assassins and a SWAT team to capture you because you're brother was against him, would you give in?


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## surskitty

Probably not, but hostages do a hell of a lot of good in the department of "getting people to stop being terrorists" department.


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## Teh Ebil Snorlax

Rebels = A group rebelling against some form of opression or another group on a higher level in the social hierarchy.

Terrorists = A group attacking another group because of prejudice or revenge who create fear but rarely openly attack their target.


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## Crazy Linoone

Teh Ebil Snorlax said:


> I've used Crazy Linoone's post as an example. He calls Arya a bad character without giving any reasons why and cites his reasons for hating the book...and America, oddly enough, because people at his school liked it and recommended it.


I feel the need to defend myself. Firstly, I'm female. See that little place on the top right of my post or under my avatar (depends on what style you use) that states the gender of the poster? 

Next, I admit that I didn't use any examples. I personally don't think I need any reasons for disliking something. I am entitled to my opinions, thank you very much. I didn't say that the book was bad; I said that I _thought_ the book was bad. And if you want reasons, here they are: I didn't like the style, the godawful misuse of thesaurus, and the plot. See Anti-Shur'tugal for more details. 

And if you're going to attack me about disliking America, I just want you to know that I live in America, and I have my reasons for disliking it. 

Now for something more on topic. 



Teh Ebil Snorlax said:


> If you're government sent two assassins and a SWAT team to capture you because *you're* brother was against him, would you give in?


I think you meant "your", no? It took me quite a while before I figured that out... 

Since I didn't read the third book (and am not planning to), I can't comment on the events. However. Any sane person would give in because it's you against two assassins _and_ a SWAT team. Who do you think will win? I'm rooting for the SWAT team unless you're Mary Sue. Which then I'll root for the SWAT team anyway even if they're going to get killed. And since they're here to capture you, not to kill you... I say I have a better chance of living to go with them. 



Teh Ebil Snorlax said:


> Rebels = A group rebelling against some form of opression or another group on a higher level in the social hierarchy.
> 
> Terrorists = A group attacking another group because of prejudice or revenge who create fear but rarely openly attack their target.


Rebels can also be terrorists. They can terrorize others to fight against the government, and vice versa. 

This thread should go in the Debating Hall.


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## EmeraldLeafBlade

I read about half of the first one, and I liked it at first, but... I soon became bored with it and never touched the series again.


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## Teh Ebil Snorlax

Crazy Linoone said:


> I feel the need to defend myself. Firstly, I'm female. See that little place on the top right of my post or under my avatar (depends on what style you use) that states the gender of the poster?


That was a mistake on my part. 



Crazy Linoone said:


> Since I didn't read the third book (and am not planning to), I can't comment on the events. However. Any sane person would give in because it's you against two assassins _and_ a SWAT team. Who do you think will win? I'm rooting for the SWAT team unless you're Mary Sue. Which then I'll root for the SWAT team anyway even if they're going to get killed. And since they're here to capture you, not to kill you... I say I have a better chance of living to go with them.


Interestingly enough, it was the second book. I personally haven't read the third yet. And in the instance it was Roran and the town of Carvahall against two supernaturally powerful assassins and the medieval equivalent of a SWAT team. Also, my main point was the government part, not what specifically came after you. If you're government betrayed you like that, would you not fight back?



Crazy Linoone said:


> Rebels can also be terrorists. They can terrorize others to fight against the government, and vice versa.


True enough, but the Varden don't.


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## surskitty

How do you know they didn't?  We know very little of what they were doing.

And somehow I don't think _invading someone's mind just because their dad was on the side of Evil_ is kosher.  At all.


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## Teh Ebil Snorlax

I think _invading someone's mind just because their dad was one of the most powerful people on the side of Evil and he lived in the castle of the King for most of his life and was in the King's employ_ is fairly kosher. Also, note that they didn't invade Murtagh's mind, he held out, which earned him Ajihad's respect.


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## Harlequin

I think the point is that they _tried?_


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## Teh Ebil Snorlax

I still think its perfectly okay for them to do that to someone who was potentially on of their biggest threats, and later rose to be one of their biggest threats.


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## surskitty

If a dude risks death or worse to try to get the fuck away from the Evil Empire, then I'd imagine that he's probably fairly trustworthy.  Changing a possible-enemy into a definite-enemy because you don't trust him and want to destroy the last semblance of privacy he has does not seem like a good idea.

Also isn't Murtagh helping the Empire unwillingly?


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## Harlequin

Plus hindsight is twenty-twenty.


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## Teh Ebil Snorlax

surskitty said:


> If a dude risks death or worse to try to get the fuck away from the Evil Empire, then I'd imagine that he's probably fairly trustworthy.  Changing a possible-enemy into a definite-enemy because you don't trust him and want to destroy the last semblance of privacy he has does not seem like a good idea.
> 
> Also isn't Murtagh helping the Empire unwillingly?


The Varden didn't know that he'd risked death or worse though, did he? All they knew was that the son of one of their most fearsome enemies showed up with Eragon. Why would you risk letting a spy into your midst just to look fair? And stop making it look like they treated Murtagh unfairly, that's how they treated all newcomers to Farthen Dur.

That's a bit of a grey area. He is definitely under Galbatorix's control and expresses his hopelessness at the situation, but also tells Eragon that his life is sweet, the only way we would know is if he was released from Galbatorix's control.


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## surskitty

Um, I'd say that if a guy is hanging around helping a known criminal then they're probably at risk for harsh punishments.  Common sense, y'know.  

If they treat everyone trying to enter Dwarfland by invading their minds, then I'd say they're assholes!


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## Teh Ebil Snorlax

They're not entering Dwarfland, they're entering the secret base of a rebel group. If someone showed up at the secret entrance to your base, you'd interrogate them to find out why and how they got there. Well in Inheritance, they just happen to have a better type of interrogation. Unfortunately, their interrogators are two asshole bad guys.


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## surskitty

Said secret base is at... Dwarfland.

It's not just the guys who are interrogating them that're assholes: whoever hired them even after knowing they're assholes is at fault, too.


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## Teh Ebil Snorlax

And? It in itself is not Dwarfland, Dwarfland is the entire mountain range and Farthen Dur is simply one mountain in it. It is the only part of Dwarfland that requires psychic interrogation for entrance.

Personally, I'd rather have a skilled asshole than talentless nice guy doing my interrogation.


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## shadow_lugia

I haven't been on today because I got obssessed with Eldest, finally managed to finish that 600+ page sucker. Yes I like the series >.>

These three boys are having a contest to see who can read Eragon fastest. They're already starting the middle, but I'll start today and still whoop them. Mwehehe >:3

*sits back as enthusiastic audience to opaltiger and TES* Whoo, literary debate GOGOGOGOGO

EDIT: :D Finished Brisingr while we were down. Fuck I love it.

*grabs Paolini* PUBLISH THE LAST ONE NOW

EDIT2: Shit did I kill this or something D:


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## Pikachu

Finished Brisingr on Tuesday
Very suprising ending. Then again, Oromis and Glaedr had it coming.
And did anyone notice that it was quite easy for Eragon and Roran to defeat the Ra'zac and rescue Katrina?


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