# Please stop using joke pronouns



## Butterfree (Jun 14, 2011)

Okay, look, guys.

The pronoun field in your profile *is not for you to make jokes in*. The gender field was changed into a pronoun field with a manual input option not because we wanted to let you fool around and get smart with it, but because we have a substantial population on the forums whose ability to specify a pronoun that doesn't make them cringe is actually important to them.

Using the pronoun field to put in some witty made-up word in reference to yourself is not only irritating to everyone who _actually_ wants to refer to you in the third person, but is also trivializing an issue that _actually matters_ to some people. When droves of members who are actually perfectly happy with standard pronouns type quirky witticisms into the pronoun field on a whim, individuals with a genuine wish to go by a nonstandard pronoun will just feel mocked and marginalized.

Keep the pronoun field serious. If you want to make a silly joke to be displayed in your postbit, just put it in your signature. Or pollute the Location field if you absolutely must.


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## Zero Moment (Jun 14, 2011)

God, FINALLY this is officially adressed. It annoys me so much when I can't adress someone as he/she/whatever because the person put something random in the Gender field.


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## Mewtwo (Jun 14, 2011)

Would "She-cat" be acceptable? It clearly states that I am a her, and it refers to the Warriors cat series.


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## Adriane (Jun 15, 2011)

Mewtwo said:


> Would "She-cat" be acceptable? It clearly states that I am a her, and it refers to the Warriors cat series.


Preferably not. Unless you actually want people going she-cat, her-cat, and hers-cat at you. Otherwise, it's misusing the pronoun field.


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## Butterfree (Jun 15, 2011)

Is there a good reason you want to be making references in the pronoun field to begin with? (hint: the answer is only yes if you feel that you are in fact not a "her" but a "her-cat".)


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## Superbird (Jun 15, 2011)

Relatedly, is it okay to make jokes in the pronoun field as long as it's clear what your gender is?


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## Butterfree (Jun 15, 2011)

For God's sake, why do you have some uncontrollable compulsion to put a joke in it at all? _Just put the actual pronoun you actually want people to use for you._ This is not supposed to be hard.

People who actually need to specify a real nonstandard pronoun shouldn't have to suffer through people not taking them seriously because everybody else is putting random crap in the pronoun field just because they think it's funny.


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## Karkat Vantas (Jun 15, 2011)

What if I'm making it perfectly clear what gender I am without being funny or anything but also specifying that I don't particularly care how I'm referred to?

This does seem like a valid use for the system


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## Adriane (Jun 15, 2011)

Karkat Vantas said:


> What if I'm making it perfectly clear what gender I am without being funny or anything but also specifying that I don't particularly care how I'm referred to?
> 
> This does seem like a valid use for the system


There is an "any" option. It is a pronoun field, not a gender field. Incidentally, male/female are _sexes_, not genders.


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## Espeon (Jun 15, 2011)

I don't really quite understand why people feel the need to attempt to push the boundaries when it comes to correct usage of the pronoun field? Certainly people have the common courtesy and consideration to realise that the box should contain their desired gender pronouns and nothing else. Or is there some phenomenon where people absolutely must insist upon abusing the newer features?

It's already been stated that people take this seriously and can take offense at misuse of the pronoun field and Butterfree has already said to put your desired pronoun in the field ONLY. If you're uncertain then ask yourself firstly, "is this actually a pronoun?" and secondly "is this appropritate to me/do I want to be referred to by this pronoun?". If you genuinely still find yourself in a predicament, then feel free to ask but otherwise you're really making a fool of yourself.

Apologies to those of you who are using the field correctly.


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## surskitty (Jun 16, 2011)

I very much appreciate this announcement!


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## Ether's Bane (Jun 17, 2011)

Espeon said:


> I don't really quite understand why people feel the need to attempt to push the boundaries when it comes to correct usage of the pronoun field? Certainly people have the common courtesy and consideration to realise that the box should contain their desired gender pronouns and nothing else. Or is there some phenomenon where people absolutely must insist upon abusing the newer features?
> 
> It's already been stated that people take this seriously and can take offense at misuse of the pronoun field and Butterfree has already said to put your desired pronoun in the field ONLY. If you're uncertain then ask yourself firstly, "is this actually a pronoun?" and secondly "is this appropritate to me/do I want to be referred to by this pronoun?". If you genuinely still find yourself in a predicament, then feel free to ask but otherwise you're really making a fool of yourself.
> 
> Apologies to those of you who are using the field correctly.


Is putting "irrelevant" misusing the pronoun field, and if so, why?


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## Adriane (Jun 17, 2011)

Effercon said:


> Is putting "irrelevant" misusing the pronoun field, and if so, why?


Not particularly. Again, there _is_ a default "any" option, though.


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## Lord of the Fireflies (Jun 20, 2011)

That's why we should have kept the old method; three choices: He / She / It, period.


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## Not Meowth (Jun 20, 2011)

Lord of the Fireflies said:


> That's why we should have kept the old method; three choices: He / She / It, period.


Except not everyone is happy being classified as an "it" if they don't feel they fit under either "he" or "she".


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## Adriane (Jun 20, 2011)

Lord of the Fireflies said:


> That's why we should have kept the old method; three choices: He / She / It, period.


"Old method" was a gender field, not a pronoun field. Also, I really dislike being called "it" so.


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## surskitty (Jun 20, 2011)

I would venture to guess that most people don't want to be 'it'.  o_o

I am not amused.


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## ultraviolet (Jun 20, 2011)

Lord of the Fireflies said:


> That's why we should have kept the old method; three choices: He / She / It, period.


way to miss the entire point of changing it in the first place!


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## Hiikaru (Jun 20, 2011)

Thank you!



Lord of the Fireflies said:


> That's why we should have kept the old method; three choices: He / She / It, period.


No.

I'm not a girl *or* a boy, so I'm not about to put that (I don't even sign up for sites that require me to choose one of the two). But I am not an it! I'm not that and I don't want to say I am, but having only three options kind of forces my hand!

Also, there are lots of non-he/she/it pronouns! Some people are most comfortable being referred to by they/their/them, or ey/eir/eim, or ve/ver/vem, or are comfortable with any pronoun! 

Girl and boy are *not* the only genders, and there are enough people in the world (plenty on this forum!) that feel really, really, really awful when you try to force them to be one of those. Non-standard pronouns aren't a way to say "oh no thank you I'll keep my gender to myself for now I'm afraid of someone trying to find me," they're actual important things to people that make them way more comfortable.

It's not the fault of anyone but the joking people that people are trying to make something serious into a joke. It's not the fault of the people who legitimately want to use pronouns that aren't "it"! So why do you want to punish them for it? They didn't do anything.

It's understandable if different pronouns are a little difficult for you (although they're really, really not as difficult to get used to as they look like they'd be!), but taking from non-binary-gendered people the option to put something besides "it" when it's clear they're extremely uncomfortable is _mean_.

Butterfree is great and has put something in place for this, and you want her to get rid of it now? People like it and enough people use it appropriately! The people who don't shouldn't dictate whether or not it exists.


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## Zhu Que (Jun 20, 2011)

Here's a thought: take the option away entirely and let's stop getting so caught up in what is nowadays a lesser detail.


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## Adriane (Jun 20, 2011)

Zhu Que said:


> Here's a thought: take the option away entirely and let's stop getting so caught up in what is nowadays a lesser detail.


How would this solve anything? There are people who identify as a specific gender and people who don't. Put the pronouns you accept. _This is not hard._


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## ultraviolet (Jun 20, 2011)

Zhu Que said:


> Here's a thought: take the option away entirely and let's stop getting so caught up in what is nowadays a lesser detail.


it might be a lesser detail to you, but I think a lot of people still see gender as kind of a big deal, at least so you can easily refer to someone with a pronoun they're comfortable with! what exactly is difficult about putting an actual pronoun in a box that asks for a pronoun? people should be able to express what pronoun they prefer in their postbit for ease and clarity, and this shouldn't be taken away because some people feel the need to joke about it. if people can't use them properly, what exactly is bad about telling them off (and rightfully so) as opposed to removing the option entirely?

seriously guys, you have an avatar, a usertitle and a signature that already appears every time you post - be a hilarious special snowflake in those, and not in the one thing that people want to take seriously. on your profile, you can even put hilarious zany things in the bio! or in your photo albums! this shouldn't even be an issue. I really don't want to be a No Fun Police Mod, but ffs guys._ it isn't hard. _by putting jokes in the gender field you're making fun of something that's... actually a big deal to some people.


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## MentheLapin (Jun 20, 2011)

It sounds a bit extreme but why not make having a specific pronoun like having an HTML signature, in that one would have to apply for one?


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## Autumn (Jun 20, 2011)

Blooregard Q. Kazoo said:


> It sounds a bit extreme but why not make having a specific pronoun like having an HTML signature, in that one would have to apply for one?


or everyone could just, y'know, _put down the pronouns they want to be referred to with_


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## Zhu Que (Jun 20, 2011)

ultraviolet said:


> it might be a lesser detail to you, but I think a lot of people still see gender as kind of a big deal, at least so you can easily refer to someone with a pronoun they're comfortable with! *what exactly is difficult about putting an actual pronoun in a box that asks for a pronoun? *people should be able to express what pronoun they prefer in their postbit for ease and clarity, and this shouldn't be taken away because some people feel the need to joke about it. if people can't use them properly, what exactly is bad about telling them off (and rightfully so) as opposed to removing the option entirely?
> 
> by putting jokes in the gender field you're making fun of something that's... actually a big deal to some people.


Because people will always be idiots, that's why. 

Well apparently gender shouldn't be that big of a deal but one is being made out of it.


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## 1. Luftballon (Jun 20, 2011)

maybe it never should have been an issue in the first place. that doesn't change that it is.


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## Medical Meccanica (Jun 21, 2011)

Although I don't like the self-righteous feel of the transgender community on this forum, I have to agree with their arguments here:

It's really not that hard to decide whether you want to be called he, she, it, something else entirely (not all up-and-up on other pronouns), or whether you really don't give a shit. If you feel you need to make jokes in that field, then you either have A. a really awful sense of humor or B. you're some kind of asshole or C. you're retarded or D. All of the above. 

If you answered D, you're correct! Maybe you aren't so retarded after all.

I feel the pronoun field was a good solution to get people to stop bitching, and putting joke pronouns in the field will just cause more bitching. So, unless you want to be a drama-mongering whore, don't put a joke in the pronoun field.

tl;dr just put the _serious_ thing you want to be called in the pronoun field and leave it at that. If you make jokes there you're an asswipe.


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## Jolty (Jun 21, 2011)

Medical Meccanica said:


> Although I don't like the self-righteous feel of the transgender community on this forum


I like you, you're cool

and I pretty much agree with everything else you said


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## Loffyglu (Jun 21, 2011)

Oh God, thank you so much for addressing this ;w; I feel like I remember seeing some instances of that sort of joking around with the feature, myself, (though I couldn't point out any specific ones)... And I agree, it _is_ pretty disrespectful to those who really make a big deal out of gender pronouns :/ Ah well, hopefully they'll wise up soon.


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## Lord of the Fireflies (Jun 22, 2011)

I'm sorry if I hurt anybody's feelings. 

If you think "It" is pejorative (and thinking about it, it is) well we could find an universal and respectful pronoun for everybody on the forum, because honestly I don't like playing around made-up pronouns much.


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## surskitty (Jun 22, 2011)

The thing with respectful gender-neutral pronouns is that there are a lot of them to choose from.  Hence a pronoun field.  Is it honestly that difficult to follow whatever's in that field?


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## Lord of the Fireflies (Jun 22, 2011)

Is it honestly that difficult just to have the same for everybody (who doesn't want he/she)?

We could make a poll / vote / something idk


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## Adriane (Jun 22, 2011)

Lord of the Fireflies said:


> Is it honestly that difficult just to have the same for everybody (who doesn't want he/she)?
> 
> We could make a poll / vote / something idk


Is it honestly that difficult to use what people feel comfortable with?


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## surskitty (Jun 22, 2011)

Yeah that's a terrible idea sorry.

Just pay attention to the field!  Not that hard.


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## Butterfree (Jun 22, 2011)

I really can't wrap my brain around why people have difficulty with this concept.


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## bulbasaur (Jun 22, 2011)

Butterfree said:


> I really can't wrap my brain around why people have difficulty with this concept.





			
				Isacc Newton said:
			
		

> I can calculate the motions of the heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people.





			
				Albert Einstein said:
			
		

> Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe.





			
				Voltaire said:
			
		

> Common sense is not so common





			
				Scarecrow (Wizard of Oz) said:
			
		

> If I only had a brain...





			
				Friedrich von Schiller said:
			
		

> Against stupidity the gods themselves struggle in vain.


You're not alone.


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## 1. Luftballon (Jun 23, 2011)

I'm sure people would be less uncomfortable if we just called _everyone_ 'it'!

oh, wait, I think that's just


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## Solstice (Jun 23, 2011)

_If you have no use for the Pronoun field, ignore it. Just put in your gender with the Gender box instead._


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## 1. Luftballon (Jun 23, 2011)

would you care to show me where the gender box is?


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## Butterfree (Jun 23, 2011)

He's probably confusing the pronoun drop-down box with "he", "she", "it" and "any" with a gender box. In which case I fully support the idea: most people identify as simply male or female, and if you're willing to identify as male or female there is absolutely no reason you can't just select "he" or "she" accordingly and be done with it.


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## octobr (Jun 27, 2011)

Lord of the Fireflies said:


> Is it honestly that difficult just to have the same for everybody (who doesn't want he/she)?
> 
> We could make a poll / vote / something idk


Well, yes! It is! Because not everyone is the same. It's like, in a way, saying that everything that isn't red or blue is yellow. I mean, sure, you _could_ say that, and a lot of it may be yellow, but there's also a lot of things that definitely are NOT yellow. Pronouns and gender are hard to understand but they're rather important. Not everyone is an 'it' or an 'e.'


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## Adriane (Jun 27, 2011)

Butterfree said:


> He's probably confusing the pronoun drop-down box with "he", "she", "it" and "any" with a gender box. In which case I fully support the idea: most people identify as simply male or female, and if you're willing to identify as male or female there is absolutely no reason you can't just select "he" or "she" accordingly and be done with it.


Male and female are biological sexes, not identity quantifiers. "I am male (adjective)" is not the same as "I am a man (noun)". While we are raised to equate male-ness to masculinity (and female-ness to femininity), this is something we simply need to transcend.


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## Butterfree (Jun 27, 2011)

...okay, I really missed the memo where "male" and "female" can only refer to biological sex and not gender. Regardless, my point had nothing to do with that; it was about how if your identified gender has an accepted pronoun which is in the drop-down box, then you should just select the pronoun from the drop-down box and leave the text field alone.


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## Eloi (Jun 27, 2011)

Alvyren said:


> Male and female are biological sexes, not identity quantifiers. "I am male (adjective)" is not the same as "I am a man (noun)". While we are raised to equate male-ness to masculinity (and female-ness to femininity), this is something we simply need to transcend.


Well, yes, in the specialized-terminology of gender studies, but in ordinary language, male and female are often used as identity makers, and even in some gender studies (see also: Male-to-Female/Female-to-Male Transsexual person).

And we weren't "raised" to recognize this, its just a pattern for the majority of human beings here. It allegedly being universal is the socially created hyperbole of the actual pattern.


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## Adriane (Jun 27, 2011)

Eloi said:


> Well, yes, in the specialized-terminology of gender studies, but in ordinary language, male and female are often used as identity makers, and even in some gender studies (see also: Male-to-Female/Female-to-Male Trans*sexual* person).


I think you just answered yourself here.



> And we weren't "raised" to recognize this, its just a pattern for the majority of human beings here. It allegedly being universal is the socially created hyperbole of the actual pattern.


You can't possibly believe this? Gender roles and language are societal constructs.


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## Eloi (Jun 27, 2011)

> I think you just answered yourself here.


It doesn't, because transsexual people don't actually transition between sexes. There is no sex change going on, as that is currently impossible with modern science. Yes, physical characteristics of sex are changed, but not the sex itself. Does this matter for identification purposes? No, because gender exists and should be used for such things. 




> You can't possibly believe this? Gender roles and language are societal constructs.


If gender is just a societal construct, it is an omnipresent one that defines all interactions with anyone you could ever meet, and thus it doesn't matter practically whether it is or not in daily life.

Now, if it is somehow not real, than that would be blaming transsexual people's parent(s) or guardian(s) for how they raised them instead of it being a physical condition of the brain, which suggests transsexuality is someone's fault and can be avoided somehow, and possibly even changed. This is a horribly destructive belief that harms people, and thus actually does matter. Because we don't actually know, I prefer to assume the belief that harms less people- that is, gender is created by brain structure and not societal interactions.


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## Adriane (Jun 27, 2011)

Eloi said:


> It doesn't, because transsexual people don't actually transition between sexes. There is no sex change going on, as that is currently impossible with modern science. Yes, physical characteristics of sex are changed, but not the sex itself. Does this matter for identification purposes? No, because gender exists and should be used for such things.


It is an unfortunate limitation of what we can actually do, yes. It doesn't change that male and female are used to refer to sex. That is why they are _trans_ sexual and not just "female" (instead of "male-to-female").



> If gender is just a societal construct, it is an omnipresent one that defines all interactions with anyone you could ever meet, and thus it doesn't matter practically whether it is or not in daily life.


... yes. Yes it is. _This is why it's such a huge problem._



> Now, if it is somehow not real, *than that would be blaming transsexual people's parent(s) or guardian(s) for how they raised them instead of it being a physical condition of the brain*, which suggests transsexuality is someone's fault and can be avoided somehow, and possibly even changed.


Surprise, how a person is raised is a huge factor in diagnosing psychological issues and disorders. I'd rather not go into details, but I will point out that my childhood was _*completely miserable*_. 

Very young children do not come into this world knowing the difference between a boy and a girl. This is _excessively overlearnt_ during the most significant developmental years. Boys have short hair and play with boy toys. Girls have long hair and wear skirts and like pink. Kids see this on TV. Kids see this in stores. Kids see this every day until it's ingrained.  

If a child exhibits non-cisgendered behaviour, and it is _never discouraged_ (i.e. by parents, close friends, learning environment), the child will not likely grow up to have a problem with their personality and behaviour because nothing ever _told_ them it's "wrong".


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## Eloi (Jun 27, 2011)

Alvyren said:


> It is an unfortunate limitation of what we can actually do, yes. It doesn't change that male and female are used to refer to sex. That is why they are _trans_ sexual and not just "female" (instead of "male-to-female").


I think the reason why the terminology is like this is because it was not created to be inclusive to trans* people, or with recognition of the differences between sex and gender, or what those mean. Its just outdated words we still use for ease of use, they don't rationalization to be justified. 




> ... yes. Yes it is. _This is why it's such a huge problem._


But interacting as a gender I feel I am is really awesome though. Its awesome for a lot people. I don't see what the problem is.



> Surprise, how a person is raised is a huge factor in diagnosing psychological issues and disorders. I'd rather not go into details, but I will point out that my childhood was _*completely miserable*_.


Yes, when it comes to emotional interaction, they are. Gender is not based in emotional interaction, but it does affect it, however, because its not based in emotional interaction, it is not a behavioral disorder caused by surroundings.



> Very young children do not come into this world knowing the difference between a boy and a girl. This is _excessively overlearnt_ during the most significant developmental years. Boys have short hair and play with boy toys. Girls have long hair and wear skirts and like pink. Kids see this on TV. Kids see this in stores. Kids see this every day until it's ingrained.


Okay, well, where did all of these concepts come from then? Did people create them ex nilho? Why did we create them? What's their function?



> If a child exhibits non-cisgendered behaviour, and it is _never discouraged_ (i.e. by parents, close friends, learning environment), the child will not likely grow up to have a problem with their personality and behaviour because nothing ever _told_ them it's "wrong".


That's not true. I grew up not discouraged (as I had a different understanding of what gender was, as I thought it was wide-spread differences in behavior and appearance by choice of up-keep that roughly divide into 'male' and 'female', while names and pronouns are decided at birth, so I decided to be a girl in behavior and appearance which never got discouraged because I never challenged names or pronouns),and  I was just horrified by adolescence, as it stole away the freedom of deciding the upkeep of my gender, which caused a rather sudden deepening of my depression. So, I don't need people to tell me its wrong. I just felt wrong because of how bodies work, and how my mind works.


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## Adriane (Jun 27, 2011)

Eloi said:


> I think the reason why the terminology is like this is because it was not created to be inclusive to trans* people, or with recognition of the differences between sex and gender, or what those mean. Its just outdated words we still use for ease of use, they don't rationalization to be justified.


Connotations and denotations of words change over time. With trans* awareness rising, it is important to exemplify the difference, particularly as not everybody knows the difference between someone who is trans gender or trans sexual. 



> But interacting as a gender I feel I am is really awesome though. Its awesome for a lot people. I don't see what the problem is.


It's completely unnecessary and it _does_ cause a lot of pain to a lot of people. You should be equally or _more_ satisfied interacting as your_self_ than as a girl. Gender is an unnecessary construct that creates an unnecessary division.



> Yes, when it comes to emotional interaction, they are. Gender is not based in emotional interaction, but it does affect it, however, because its not based in emotional interaction, it is not a behavioral disorder caused by surroundings.


And you know this how?



> Okay, well, where did all of these concepts come from then? Did people create them ex nilho? Why did we create them? What's their function?


Years and years of reinforcement. During the hunter-gatherer era, sex characteristics laid out a foundation that would later develop into gender roles after civilisations were created during the agricultural revolution. The majority of early civilisations were patriarchal, and future societies continued to be patriarchal. However, we have since evolved past this; gender roles are simply unnecessary. Men are perfectly capable of raising children and women are perfectly capable of pursuing a career or leading a nation. It's an extraneous division that serves no real function. Why should possessing a vagina give you an all-exclusive pass to wear a dress? Does having a beard make you look like you match your truck?



> That's not true. I grew up not discouraged (as I had a different understanding of what gender was, as I thought it was wide-spread differences in behavior and appearance by choice of up-keep that roughly divide into 'male' and 'female', *while names and pronouns are decided at birth*


_*This is wrong on so many levels. It is the #1 reason why gender roles are so intact.*_



> so I decided to be a girl in behavior and appearance which never got discouraged because I never challenged names or pronouns),and  I was just horrified by adolescence, as it stole away the freedom of deciding the upkeep of my gender, which caused a rather sudden deepening of my depression. So, I don't need people to tell me its wrong. I just felt wrong because of how bodies work, and how my mind works.


And now you've completely lost me.


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## Eloi (Jun 27, 2011)

Alvyren said:


> Connotations and denotations of words change over time. With trans* awareness rising, it is important to exemplify the difference, particularly as not everybody knows the difference between someone who is trans gender or trans sexual.


Right, by you were discussing specific and precise meanings. 




> It's completely unnecessary and it _does_ cause a lot of pain to a lot of people. You should be equally or _more_ satisfied interacting as your_self_ than as a girl. Gender is an unnecessary construct that creates an unnecessary division.


But myself is a girl. Not primarily, but its a characteristic.



> And you know this how


?
Experience.



> Years and years of reinforcement. During the hunter-gatherer era, sex characteristics laid out a foundation that would later develop into gender roles after civilisations were created during the agricultural revolution. The majority of early civilisations were patriarchal,


The Old Europe supposed in Kurgan hypothesis is matriarchal, and preceded patriarchal culture that invaded upon the older culture. So, I don't believe patriarchy is a natural extension of sex characteristics.  



> However, we have since evolved past this; gender roles are simply unnecessary. Men are perfectly capable of raising children and women are perfectly capable of pursuing a career or leading a nation. It's an extraneous division that serves no real function. Why should possessing a vagina give you an all-exclusive pass to wear a dress? Does having a beard make you look like you match your truck?


Yes, but gender stereotypes are not gender. 



> _*This is wrong on so many levels. It is the #1 reason why gender roles are so intact.*_


...Yes, I know, I was saying these were the incorrect things I believed as a child that reinforced my non-cisgender behavior without actually recognizing as it as such.



> And now you've completely lost me.


Um. How?


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## Medical Meccanica (Jun 27, 2011)

Why isn't this locked yet? It's turning into a gigantic clusterfuck of idiots and people who take gender identity way too seriously.

The answer to this has been obvious all along - _put what you SERIOUSLY want to be called in the pronoun field._ I think keeping this thread open is just catering to the idiots who don't understand that some people don't identify with "he" or "she" and the trans community that I mentioned in my other post who feel the need to flip three different kinds of shits whenever someone doesn't understand their worldview.


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## Eloi (Jun 27, 2011)

Medical Meccanica said:


> Why isn't this locked yet?


I support a split into debate hall. 



> It's turning into a gigantic clusterfuck of idiots and people who take gender identity way too seriously.


Um. Thanks for passively aggressively calling me an idiot and trivializing my problems. 'preciate it. 


> The answer to this has been obvious all along - _put what you SERIOUSLY want to be called in the pronoun field._


Yes, a split into a different topic would be good seeing as this has been resolved.



> I think keeping this thread open is just catering to the idiots who don't understand that some people don't identify with "he" or "she" and the trans community that I mentioned in my other post who feel the need to flip three different kinds of shits whenever someone doesn't understand their worldview.


Sorry for caring about problems that affect me not you. I should only care about problems that affect you. Makes sense.


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## Adriane (Jun 27, 2011)

Eloi said:


> But myself is a girl. Not primarily, but its a characteristic.


Right. If this element were eliminated, absolutely nothing about you would change. 



> ?
> Experience.


My experience shows otherwise. 



> The Old Europe supposed in Kurgan hypothesis is matriarchal, and preceded patriarchal culture that invaded upon the older culture. So, I don't believe patriarchy is a natural extension of sex characteristics.


You missed the point. We live in a patriarchal society _today_; gender roles still exist _today_. They are slowly disappearing, but they are still _there_.



> Yes, but gender stereotypes are not gender.


It is to a lot of people. Boys who act "girly" get called "sissies"; both terms evoke gender. 



> ...Yes, I know, I was saying these were the incorrect things I believed as a child that reinforced my non-cisgender behavior without actually recognizing as it as such.


Wait, are you a trans girl? For some reason, I had registered you as cis gender. My apologies.


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## Jolty (Jun 27, 2011)

ok I came in here like 10 mins ago and Meccanica wasn't banned then so I assume she was banned for that post
seriously??????

she has a point though
half (if not more) of the trans community on this forum DO take things way too goddamn seriously and will freak out over the most retarded of things. for example, the t-shirt fiasco in the "NY legalised gay marriage" thread

jesus christ stop beating everyone to death with political correctness
I get that you're trying to educate people and shit but a lot of you (Alvyren especially) do it IN EVERY SINGLE THREAD and it's beyond irritating


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## Eloi (Jun 27, 2011)

(Making replies assuming an eventual split into a debate thread about the validity of the concept of gender.)



Alvyren said:


> Right. If this element were eliminated, absolutely nothing about you would change.


Well, yes, but there is no way to feasibly eliminate this element in my lifespan, nor am I aware of anyone actively trying to do so that are in powerful positions to initiate such a movement with enough momentum to do so.



> My experience shows otherwise.


Hence anecdotal evidence being invalid in debates. =/



> You missed the point. We live in a patriarchal society _today_; gender roles still exist _today_. They are slowly disappearing, but they are still _there_.


That is true, but I am saying gender does not originate from a patriarchal society based on sex characteristics, which is fundamental to your model of gender being a concept invented by human minds and not a concept caused by the human mind.



> It is to a lot of people. Boys who act "girly" get called "sissies"; both terms evoke gender.


Yes, but majority belief is not truth.



> Wait, are you a trans girl? For some reason, I had registered you as cis gender. My apologies.


Um, s'okay, no problems here. ^^; I tried to come out as such in the last Grr thread because I implied otherwise on the forums beforehand but it suddenly vanished and yeah.


_______


> ok I came in here like 10 mins ago and Meccanica wasn't banned then so I assume she was banned for that post
> seriously??????


I think it was because of the mean-spiritedness of the post as opposed to the points raised.



> half (if not more) of the trans community on this forum DO take things way too goddamn seriously and will freak out over the most retarded of things.


I don't necessarily disagree, but I think years of having your problems trivialized and systematic oppression will do that to a person. 



> jesus christ stop beating everyone to death with political correctness


One cannot have too much of treating people in general nicely, methinks.




> for example, the t-shirt fiasco in the "NY legalised gay marriage" thread [...] I get that you're trying to educate people and shit but a lot of you (Alvyren especially) do it IN EVERY SINGLE THREAD and it's beyond irritating


I will concede that a lot of off-topic debate prompted by on-topic stuff does occur especially related to that, which I thing would be solved nicely by a specific topic to discuss it.


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## Adriane (Jun 27, 2011)

Jolty said:


> ok I came in here like 10 mins ago and Meccanica wasn't banned then so I assume she was banned for that post
> seriously??????


50 points is a ban. 



> she has a point though
> half (if not more) of the trans community on this forum DO take things way too goddamn seriously


Excuse me for taking a pivotal element of my well-being seriously. 



> and will freak out over the most retarded of things. for example, the t-shirt fiasco in the "NY legalised gay marriage" thread


Hi, I'm mildly retarded.



> jesus christ stop beating everyone to death with political correctness
> I get that you're trying to educate people and shit but a lot of you (Alvyren especially) do it IN EVERY SINGLE THREAD and it's beyond irritating


You're irritating. Also please don't misuse "political correctness".

Aaaand forking thread.

EDIT: ... the option seems to have vanished. Is it missing for anyone else, too?


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## Jolty (Jun 27, 2011)

Alvyren said:


> Excuse me for taking a pivotal element of my well-being seriously.


no there's taking something important seriously, then there's being goddamn annoying about it
having a go at someone for EVERY SINGLE LITTLE THING is being annoying about it, and a lot of the time it isn't even relevant!




> Hi, I'm mildly retarded.


gosh I'm sorry for offending you so badly
are there any other words I should stop using just in case I offend people
...are you actually not-offended by anything at all????? just wondering like




> You're irritating. Also please don't misuse "political correctness".


PLEASE EDUCATE ME ON HOW I AM MISUSING MORE WORDS.
AND PLEASE TELL ME HOW TO STOP BEING IRRITATING. I MUST LEARN FROM THE MASTER OF BEING PERFECTLY NON-IRRITATING.


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## Eloi (Jun 27, 2011)

@Jolty's-most-recent-post-as-of-time-of-writing: I think that ethically, being offended by something is a reaction to a behavior, that is, being offensive. Being offensive is thus an active behavior that can be judged as right or wrong, wherein being offended is not generally applicable to such value judgement because its a (negative) reaction to behavior, not a behavior in-of-itself. Hence, you can't be in the wrong for being offended generally, but you can be in the wrong for being offensive. However, picking when to express being offended is a choice subject to such value judgement.


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## Karkat Vantas (Jun 27, 2011)

Alvyren said:


> Hi, I'm mildly retarded.


Not gonna lie-- I am completely confused as to why you would be insulted by people saying retarded.

I can equate it to the misuse of the word gay; as a member of the LGBT community, do I dislike the usage of the word gay? Definitely. Am I insulted by it? Not at all; it is simply too widespread of a word to have spasms of RIGHTEOUS OUTRAGE whenever I hear it.

On a related note, Ms. Meccanica has Asperger's.


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## Tailsy (Jun 27, 2011)

Locking this thread because it has been derailed into a completely pointless argument that helps nobody.


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