# Pokemon Too Competetive?



## Kabigon (Sep 29, 2009)

I mean Pokemon was always meant to be competitive, but not to the point to where it was either get an EV trained team or prepare to always lose.

What happened to the times where you would fight your friend and they used their favorites, you used yours and you came up with your own strategies?

I miss the old days.


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## Coloursfall (Sep 29, 2009)

If you don't want to EV train, you can still battle other people o.o Just... go find a casual league or fight your friends? I do that all the time. You can choose the level of competitiveness and probably find a good place to do it.

(and Competitive battling isn't that hard, if you use Shoddy or whatever, anyway)


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## Kabigon (Sep 29, 2009)

Well I have a competetive team but with HG/Ss coming out, that's going to be my laid back game. 

And all my friends like to use their ubers D:


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## Coloursfall (Sep 29, 2009)

Then kick their asses with non-ubers. :3 it's fun to see a Bibarel take down a legendary (my friends have done this to me. It's hilarious.) or similar. With the right combos, it's not hard to pull off.


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## M&F (Sep 29, 2009)

I do competitive play on Shoddy Battle and casual play in the games. Unfortunately, the few people I know who play Pokémon are usually not willing to battle me out of... Well, I don't mean to brag, but, intimidation. After all, there's only one person I know in real life who goes to Shoddy Battle every now and then, and that person doesn't get competitive there and tends to get ass kicked anyway.

I still remember the day I took down my friend's Lv. 70something Infernape with my Lv. 60something (now Lv. 95) Golduck.


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## Worst Username Ever (Sep 29, 2009)

I've never seen the big deal about EV training anyway. Guess I'm just too lazy~


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## Kabigon (Sep 30, 2009)

The only reason I'm making a big deal about it is because I like playing the game. But I don't want battling to feel like a chore.

I mean now a days, the only people willing to do quick battles are people who make their teams perfect. I always wanted to have a Johto battle with my original Johto team.


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## nothing to see here (Sep 30, 2009)

I can't stand the whole "competitive battling" thing.

First of all, it involves waaaaaaay too much level-grinding (that's what EV training is, pretty much... endless battles against specific Pokémon to boost your stats in a certain way.)  It's especially bad considering that Pokémon games don't really require _any_ level-grinding, in most cases.

Second, competitive battling people tend to be assholes.  Not all of them, of course (during the week or so when I tried out ShoddyBattle just to see what it was like, I bumped into a lot more decent people than I would've expected), but it's got to be at least 75%.  The ones who don't even like _anything else_ about Pokémon, but play the online battle simulators all the time anyway, seem to be the worst from what I've seen.  I don't know if the competitive battling community somehow encourages people to become assholes, or if assholes are just drawn to it for the same reasons they're drawn to sports games, college fraternities, and 4chan... but there are _a lot_ of really horrible people in the "competitive" community, compared to the Pokémon fandom as a whole.

So yeah, the competitive battling thing has gotten way out of control.  It wasn't too bad back when it was limited to a handful of small groups on the Internet who basically stayed away from the rest of the Pokémon fandom, but now that it's all over the place it's gotten pretty annoying.

At least it isn't quite as bad as the competitive Smash Bros. players.


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## Adriane (Sep 30, 2009)

EV training isn't really that bad anymore with the Power+ items and easy-to-obtain vitamins. It truly makes a difference. And I still use my favourites, or whatever. A strategically raised Pokemon will beat your average uber. 

EVs and Natures make teams a little more personal and varied. In the RBY/GSC competitive scene, everybodys' Pokemon had the exact same stats and more than likely the exact same moves.

Also, Shoddy sucks >:( Where's Competitor?


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## spaekle (Sep 30, 2009)

Kabigon said:


> And all my friends like to use their ubers D:


This is a long video and in two parts, but is still pretty cool. just goes to show that strategically-raised Pokemon can be awesome and that Cradily kicks ass.

I used to dislike EV-training because I felt like it was all about raising a million clones based off of Smogon's guides, but then I realized I wasn't being creative enough. There really are a lot of different things you can do. I like training UU Pokemon the best.

...of course, most of my "competetive battling" is done at the Frontier, so yeah.


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## Karkat Vantas (Sep 30, 2009)

...I don't get the appeal of competitive battling. I look at tiers and know some stuff about it, but I'm not intensely into this.

I remember there was an article on Penny Arcade that fairly accurately what I'm trying to get at here. I might have to venture into the Labyrinth Teevus Tropus to get to it, though. *shudder*


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## glitchedgamer (Sep 30, 2009)

I EV train my favorites and then just play on PBR random WiFi. Is Venomoth a good choice, EV'd or not? Probably not, but I don't care. I use one 'cause I like him. When I see a team composed of Garchomp, Gyarados, Infernape, etc., it just pisses me off because I know that person is just using that team for nothing but sheer power, not for fun. I hate that part of competitive battling. The part I DO like is the challenge that battling a living, thinking opponent is.

In short, competitive battling is awesome as long as the point of Pokemon (training a team of your personal choice) is not forgotten in favor of some stupid "OU" team. It's for FUN, not to win. And Smogon just bugs the crap outta me.


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## Adriane (Sep 30, 2009)

Kam said:


> ...I don't get the appeal of competitive battling. I look at tiers and know some stuff about it, but I'm not intensely into this.


It's more intense/strategic and easily more fun, especially when playing in other tiers. I dunno about you, but I like a challenging match.


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## Karkat Vantas (Sep 30, 2009)

I'm lucky because most of the Pokemon I like (Swampert, Bronzong, etc.) are OU. Not sure why they are.

Aforementioned article: http://www.penny-arcade.com/2007/07/23/pokemon/


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## M&F (Sep 30, 2009)

Mudkip said:


> EVs and Natures make teams a little more personal and varied. In the RBY/GSC competitive scene, everybodys' Pokemon had the exact same stats and more than likely the exact same moves.


Quick correction: IVs have been around since RBY.

Well, they don't change a lot, but Pokémon wouldn't have the exact same stats that way.


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## Adriane (Sep 30, 2009)

Metallica Fanboy said:


> Quick correction: IVs have been around since RBY.
> 
> Well, they don't change a lot, but Pokémon wouldn't have the exact same stats that way.


I think you meant to say EVs, which is true; but they were static and their basic function was to separate "wild" from "trained" and weren't customisable at all. This is why rare candied Pokemon suck in comparison.


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## Medical Meccanica (Sep 30, 2009)

Although I agree with the OP, I have to say that this isn't the playerbases fault at all, it's Nintendo/Gamefreaks for creating imbalance in a game that lends itself so easily to competition. I mean, really, wouldn't it be great if each Pokemon has similar Base stat totals and we could all play with whatever we wanted? Hopefully someday something like that will take place, but for now I'm stuck playing UU or NU with maybe 1/4th of Smogon/Shoddybattle players because my favorites aren't up to the task.


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## M&F (Sep 30, 2009)

Mudkip said:


> I think you meant to say EVs, which is true; but they were static and their basic function was to separate "wild" from "trained" and weren't customisable at all. This is why rare candied Pokemon suck in comparison.


No, I'm sure IVs were there since day one.

I mean, I remember reading something along the lines of "Pokémon in GSC have the same IVs for Special Attack and Special Defense becuase that allows them to be compatible with RBY".

EDIT:





Medical Meccanica said:


> Although I agree with the OP, I have to say that this isn't the playerbases fault at all, it's Nintendo/Gamefreaks for creating imbalance in a game that lends itself so easily to competition. I mean, really, wouldn't it be great if each Pokemon has similar Base stat totals and we could all play with whatever we wanted? Hopefully someday something like that will take place, but for now I'm stuck playing UU or NU with maybe 1/4th of Smogon/Shoddybattle players because my favorites aren't up to the task.


Basically, you want them to make it so nearly 500 Pokémon are pretty much equal in skill? That'd be nigh impossible as far as I'm concerned.


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## Adriane (Sep 30, 2009)

Metallica Fanboy said:


> No, I'm sure IVs were there since day one.
> 
> I mean, I remember reading something along the lines of "Pokémon in GSC have the same IVs for Special Attack and Special Defense becuase that allows them to be compatible with RBY".
> 
> EDIT:Basically, you want them to make it so nearly 500 Pokémon are pretty much equal in skill? That'd be nigh impossible as far as I'm concerned.


IVs were around since day one. But I said nothing about IVs.


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## surskitty (Sep 30, 2009)

I like Smogon.  :(  People actually figure out what works well and share it and argue about it.


I like thinking of viable teams and never actually doing anything.  Competitive battling's kind of dumb but fun anyway.


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## Medical Meccanica (Sep 30, 2009)

Metallica Fanboy said:


> EDIT:Basically, you want them to make it so nearly 500 Pokémon are pretty much equal in skill? That'd be nigh impossible as far as I'm concerned.


They can keep tiers, but really, why are there Pokemon that are literally the Neverused of Neverused? There's inbalance even IN the tiers, and Gamefreak/Nintendo should've seen that coming. Although they can't really protect Pokemon from bad typings and such they could at least give Farfetch'd and his ilk a freaking stat boost or evolution.


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## spaekle (Sep 30, 2009)

I'm waiting for that amazing Luvdisc evolution that makes it into OU.

I use Smogon as a rough guideline more than anything else; I have the search plugin on my Firefox and I'll look up a Pokemon I'm planning on training to see what they think first. :v


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## Bluberry Bat (Sep 30, 2009)

It's not competitive enough really. xP What with the inability to turn off random game-ruining critical hits. Here's a perfect example where the game would have been incredibly close but bamf crit. (This is from my friend's side, mine got Audiowned thank you Youtube for ruining my 50th posted battle.)
Nah, I think it's fine - though Smogon blows really. I'm a regular at Regileague which is an excellent community overall, and the people tend to be.. unique. Any competitive gaming scene has the potential to be smug and idiotic, but with Pokemon people feel they have something else to justify I guess. xP And as for EV's and such.. well, me and everyone I know just hacks our Pokes to not have to worry about the grind. Much more efficient when you want to play this way. And there is a lot of diversity if you look past the OU tier.


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## Adriane (Sep 30, 2009)

UU and NU are incredibly fun to play.


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## Lars The Turtwig (Sep 30, 2009)

I used to have a really weak team, all of them being pure phyisical or special sweepers, so I started EV training my (at those times) strongest pokemon, froslass, in speed and special attack. However added some EVs in the defences for fun. Also, who cares about 'be perfect or lose'? It's for fun, after all. I train EV's at random and don't count every single one I've got. Also, the reason I've EV trained my pokemon was because they had low stats before the poke League.


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## King Clam (Sep 30, 2009)

Pokemon has as much competitive value as Super Smash Brothers

sure you -can- but everyone hates you for it and you come off as King Neckbeard, lord of all those who are unshaven and smelly


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## EddyOkapi (Oct 2, 2009)

I think it's mostly a matter of finding a place/group of players that share your style of play. Although I do admit the whole competitive play takes a lot of place on the net but that's true for any game, really. You'll always get the ones who will end up calculating every single digit of their characters/possiblity in order to win. Although it's just another style of play, not really "playing it wrong". Funnily enough, both side accuses each other of playing it wrong or something. :v

That and not all competitive players ends up as arrogant people who can't play the game without lowering standards/their difficulty levels with others. D: I myself got jaded at how so many tend to lose any sort of originality as most ends up being stock moves told by the big heads of competitive play and most counters are made by themselves so in the long run, you often run into the same pokemons and often, the same teams. It becomes predictable in a way where you just hope the foe makes a mistake and you take advantage of it. They use the strongest ones since that's their favorite, since most ends up just seeing the numbers. Of course, not all are like that, it's just, from experience, a majority... sadly. :c

But yeah, in the end, it's really a matter of finding who is more fitting to play with you. Just be sure to ask competitive players twice or just any players giving themselves in training pokemon with EVs/Ivs/whatever, plenty are willing to pick up their solo-campaign team just for the fun of battling someone else not into doing the whole trianing side since they know it's not everybody's dish.

/two cents and a half


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## Doctor Jimmy (Oct 5, 2009)

I see the point of EV training. But, aren't there other factors that come into play, like type and crits, that can also affect the outcome of a battle? Do trainers ever make use of these? Also, do these little numbers affect the outcome that much?

I hope a more action-oriented battle format like in Chrono Trigger is used in the next Pokemon games. It would give an edge to those who can use the timed system properly, as opposed to having a stat-based advantage.


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## M&F (Oct 6, 2009)

Doctor Jimmy said:


> I see the point of EV training. But, aren't there other factors that come into play, like type and crits, that can also affect the outcome of a battle? Do trainers ever make use of these? Also, do these little numbers affect the outcome that much?
> 
> I hope a more action-oriented battle format like in Chrono Trigger is used in the next Pokemon games. It would give an edge to those who can use the timed system properly, as opposed to having a stat-based advantage.


Speaking of crits, they are a good thing to be discussed in the matter of fun vs. competition. "Gambling" is usually fun, but most competitive players hate "hax" to hell because it alters what would otherwise be a "clean" victory or loss.

I'm part of the "don't care if anybody haxed" line of thought. After all, in my opinion, luck is part of the game.


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## nastypass (Oct 6, 2009)

Mudkip said:


> UU and NU are incredibly fun to play.


Just posting that this is very true, even though I haven't actually battled in months.


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## Mustardear (Oct 20, 2009)

Yes, I think so. Shoddy Battle seems to be mostly about winning at all costs. Even if you only use Salamence, Gyarados, Scizor etc. Even if you just use the same recycled, regurgitated strategy. I don't think that is what Pokemon should be about. There is barely any player skill involved when using those kind of teams, just fighting people and spouting out 'gg' at the end.


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## M&F (Oct 20, 2009)

Mustardear said:


> Yes, I think so. Shoddy Battle seems to be mostly about winning at all costs. Even if you only use Salamence, Gyarados, Scizor etc. Even if you just use the same recycled, regurgitated strategy. I don't think that is what Pokemon should be about. There is barely any player skill involved when using those kind of teams, just fighting people and spouting out 'gg' at the end.


Actually, if you merely throw the popular Pokémon into a mix without any thought, you match the people who do that, and lose when you face the people who actually have player skill. The ones who put a team together while thinking about how well they work as a team, not just as a bunch of disjointed OU Pokémon.


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## Coloursfall (Oct 20, 2009)

Also, to people who think you can't win without using the usual Gyarados, Salamence, what have you: my Girafarig took down a Dusknoir, who are excellent walls. In two hits. It was at full health.  I like Girafarig, that's why I used her. 

In fact, my normal competitive team (Yanmega, Bronzong, Empoleon, Electivire, Celebi, PorygonZ.  Which are all Pokemon I like, btw) got _trashed_ by a Scizor. My fun team, however (Persian, Flareon, Lapras, Salamence (which I didn't even get to use xD), Espeon, and Roserade) annihilated it. My Persian to be exact. 

Moral: Use what you like, and use it well. That way it's more fun!


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## Mustardear (Oct 20, 2009)

Metallica Fanboy said:


> Actually, if you merely throw the popular Pokémon into a mix without any thought, you match the people who do that, and lose when you face the people who actually have player skill. The ones who put a team together while thinking about how well they work as a team, not just as a bunch of disjointed OU Pokémon.


You're right, of course. It does take quite a lot of skill to make a good team. However, I think that some people just get (steal) a good team from the Internet and then use that rather than making their own. And if they do make their own, they usually don't even think of using UUs (except maybe Crobat). I just wish I saw some variety (don't we all?)

Scarf Arcanine surprises a lot of Salamences, though.


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## Erif (Oct 21, 2009)

Shit, my Umbreon would whoop all y'all- 

Anyways, way to competitive for me. I'm not that great of a battler, plus I have lots of trouble with making my own movesets for most of my pokemon, so I resort to already-made ones. What I'm the best at, and what I love the most, is training the Pokes. I think I do them so well, and in can also keep a lot of my pokemon balanced, at the same level.


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