# On Recent Actions Involving the Spriting Board(s)



## Mudkipz

...What's the point of having a sprite board if people are going to close everything?

I mean, they closed armies, contests, and you pretty much have to post your gallery in the stickied gallery thread. Right now, there's only adoptables and sprite shops, and one of them is going to eventually overflow and they'll be closed too.

.~.


----------



## Mewtwo

*Re: Not to be rude, but...*

True, they closed my Mewtwo/Mew army D=


----------



## Mudkipz

*Re: Not to be rude, but...*

I tried to make an army of general sprites (chao army) and it got closed.


----------



## Mewtwo

*Re: Not to be rude, but...*

[lamepun]I donated a Pikachao to that army![/lamepun]


----------



## Zora of Termina

*Re: Not to be rude, but...*

Well simply because the armies were fucking annoying and there were waaaaay too many contests. And it would drive me, as a pencil/paper kind of artist, insane when I would go to update my art thread and instead of the title of my thread in the box that tells you the latest post in the forum, there'd be something like "O LoL CoMe S33 MAH 4RMY" or "SPRITE CONTEST HERE".

EVERY FUCKING TIME.

I'd assume it's the same for others like me too.

With them locked, it's much easier for people to notice threads that aren't armies or contests that're probably going to be less annoying to see. Because when you've got a whole spriting forum filled with armies and contests, there's a problem. I believe the armies were considered spam and were plain annoying, and there were enough contests and some were just clones of others.

If surskitty went and locked regular ol' sprite threads too though, it went too far. >>


----------



## Mudkipz

*Re: Not to be rude, but...*

That is true.
I'm going to think of new things to do with the sprite board. Contest, armies and shops can't be the only things.

How would a trading post sound? Where people trade their sprites and when they do, they "own" eachother's sprite, can use them in things and edit them they way they want?


----------



## Butterfree

*Re: Not to be rude, but...*

Uh. What? Galleries have to be posted in the stickied gallery thread? Uh, no. o_O

Why do you want new things to do with the sprite forum? It's for _showing your pixel art_. That means galleries, which may or may not take requests. The General Spriters' Showcase is for posting just one or two sprites, not enough to warrant a thread.


----------



## Lucas₇₅₅

*Re: Not to be rude, but...*

I was trying to think of a new idea too.

My brain died.


----------



## Mudkipz

*Re: Not to be rude, but...*

Oh, got it.
I thought that it was for posting your galleries. Didn't read it right. :[

Also, I just thought it'd be interesting to see how new things would go.


----------



## Lucas₇₅₅

*Re: Not to be rude, but...*

Hey, I've got it! What about a sprite-off thread? You could get put on the list, and when it's your turn, you can challenge someone else to a sprite off?


----------



## Mudkipz

*Re: Not to be rude, but...*

That's a good idea. xD


----------



## Lucas₇₅₅

*Re: Not to be rude, but...*

Think it'd get locked though?


----------



## PichuK

*Re: Not to be rude, but...*

what was the point of showing other people's sprites anyway? seriously.


----------



## Lucas₇₅₅

*Re: Not to be rude, but...*

Well, it was basically a compilation of galleries of a specific Pokemon.


----------



## OrangeAipom

*Re: Not to be rude, but...*

The problem is that those sprites don't get criticism. At all.


----------



## PichuK

*Re: Not to be rude, but...*

actually the problem is that there is absolutely no point


----------



## Kratos Aurion

*Re: Not to be rude, but...*

Posting a sprite army would be like someone posting a thread in the art forum that, say, linked to someone else's deviantART page. "Oh, hey, guys! I didn't draw any of these pictures, this person did, but I think they're really cool and you should see them!" Uh, what? The art forum is for displaying and receiving criticism on your own work. If I want to see someone else's work then I'll go to their gallery myself. I don't care whether or not you've collected it and do not appreciate the fact that you are spamming up the board with an "army" of stuff that isn't yours so that actual _galleries_, full of art by people who would actually like comments on _their work_ (the very purpose of the art boards!), get shoved off the page.


----------



## Kai Lucifer

*Re: Not to be rude, but...*

I'm agreeing with everything that Butterfree, Zora and Kratos have said. The Sprites+Pixel art forum should be for galleries and shops. It shouldn't be for posting other people's sprites. There used to be a spriting challenge sub-forum, but that was inactive for most of the time. If you went to Pokecommunity, the spriting forum is only for galleries. No shops, challenges or anything. You're lucky to have shops here.


----------



## Terry. T.

*Re: Not to be rude, but...*

Maybe we could start a new craze (maybe Pocket Candy, like Castform) Sorry, just random idea.


----------



## Zeph

*Re: Not to be rude, but...*



Mudkipz said:


> How would a trading post sound? Where people trade their sprites and when they do, they "own" eachother's sprite, can use them in things and edit them they way they want?


This is a terrible idea. If you made a sprite, why should you give it to someone else?



Terry. T. said:


> Maybe we could start a new craze (maybe Pocket Candy, like Castform) Sorry, just random idea.


Wait, what? No. "Hey let's copy something that someone else does!"

It's my unique spriting thing.


----------



## Terry. T.

*Re: Not to be rude, but...*

I already know how to make them. And people can't copy if they don't know how. BUT, remember Shellder, the first one?


----------



## alonsyalonso

*Re: Not to be rude, but...*

My First ever contest was deleted... that actually made me really upset. I was excited when it started. They might close this too...
Heres the link to my only surviving Comp, b4 they close that 2
http://www.dragonflycave.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2732&highlight=beginnings


----------



## Mewtwo

*Re: Not to be rude, but...*

...Don't Chatspeak.

And, ZC, if they never see the light of the Internet, may I make Pocket Candies? Because I've learned how to take the JPG efect away from things, and now have all your flavors and more!

(Typically meaning I don't upload them for other people, just for fun when I'm bored in my Paint program)


----------



## cheesecake

*Re: Not to be rude, but...*



> And, ZC, if they never see the light of the Internet, may I make Pocket Candies? Because I've learned how to take the JPG efect away from things, and now have all your flavors and more!


HAY GUYS IT WAS HIS IDEA.

Unless ZC gives you permission, which isin't likely after reading his post here.

Really people, copying other people ideas= very rude

And so I stay on-topic, yeah, after about 100 contests and armies, I couldn't stand it anymore. Something new in the spriting world might get me spriting again.

*goes to eat ramen*


----------



## Zeph

*Re: Not to be rude, but...*



Mewtwo said:


> ...Don't Chatspeak.
> 
> And, ZC, if they never see the light of the Internet, may I make Pocket Candies? Because I've learned how to take the JPG efect away from things, and now have all your flavors and more!
> 
> (Typically meaning I don't upload them for other people, just for fun when I'm bored in my Paint program)



No. Sorry, just no. What do you mean you have 'all the flavours'?


----------



## Nope

*Re: Not to be rude, but...*



Zephyrous Castform said:


> No. Sorry, just no. What do you mean you have 'all the flavours'?


All the colours, maybe?


----------



## ultraviolet

*Re: Not to be rude, but...*

Why the hell do you need armies anyway? If you have a collection of sprites, then go uh, save them into your own file on your computer or something? The sprite contests are  being deleted because most of them are all the same. Sprites & Pixel art is to show off your galleries. 
If you want armies that much, go and store all your chaos/splices/whatevers on the gallery in your profiles. Nobody cares about them or wants to see them.




			
				Mewtwo said:
			
		

> And, ZC, if they never see the light of the Internet, may I make Pocket Candies?


Oh my god, do you ever make anything _original_? All you do is rip off other people's ideas. 

The adoptables are stupid too. Most of them are just crap copies of Dragon Cave's ideas, which were goddamn awesome. You know why the dragons did so well? Because they were original. Stop making adoptables. They're stupid.

Don't think up knew things to spam up the board, either. The million shops that are run by like four people each are enough already. It's supposed to be about showing off your art, not freaking internet popularity over sprites.


----------



## alonsyalonso

*Re: Not to be rude, but...*

But thats the thing the unique contests with a rule twist (to make thigns more interesting are getting deleted as well!


----------



## Mewtwo

*Re: Not to be rude, but...*

I took the JPEGness away from them- ah, just forget it.

And I think ZC abandoned his adoptables. Pikachu hasn't gained anymore cracks, and my Oddidh egg still wont crack!


----------



## surskitty

*Re: Not to be rude, but...*

I have been closing redundant sprite contests whenever I feel like checking to see if they still exist, yes.  Why?  Because _your competition consisting entirely of SPLICE THIS WITH THIS or RECOLOR THIS POKEMON BLUE or MAKE A SCRATCH SPRITE OF MY FAKE POKEMON is pointless_.  It's clutter.  It's also making any sprite contests showing effort at all look bad.  _A_ Halloween-themed contest during October makes sense and actually fits in; a "splice two legendaries" contest is dumb and not going to get smarter.

Sprite armies are closed whenever I get around to checking because a thread in which five million people post their sprites fitting a particular overly-specific theme is unnecessary.  Put your sprites in your own galleries/shops or in that one stickied thread.  Don't make a thread in which people post every single goddamn sprite that happens to be of one particular thing, and especially don't post a dozen slightly-different threads exactly for that purpose.


If I accidentally closed any threads that were used purely for either one person's sprites or one person and a few other people running a thread - but not a sprite army! - then by all means, tell me that I did so and I'll unlock it.  Generic sprite contests are going to be locked whenever I care, and so will most army threads.

Also, if anyone wants to try running the contest thread, tell me because I can't be bothered.


----------



## wolftamer9

I kind of liked armies and contests. I didn't like the constant creation of new contests, especially because after that the best older contests got locked. it was also pretty good when there was only one  or two armies, that was fun. I didn't like the spamming, or copying, but the rest was great. but even so, people go too far too often.


----------



## surskitty

Which is part of why I didn't do anything until there were about ten threads for each.  Bandwagons for the sake of bandwagons are dumb, but I tried to leave the ones that showed some actual thought.  :/


----------



## wolftamer9

*Re: Not to be rude, but...*



ultraviolet said:


> The adoptables are stupid too. Most of them are just crap copies of Dragon Cave's ideas, which were goddamn awesome. You know why the dragons did so well? Because they were original. Stop making adoptables. They're stupid.


not really. dragon cave wasn't the first to make adoptables, so they weren't original, just of good quality. there have been adoptables for a long time.



ultraviolet said:


> Stop making adoptables. They're stupid.


... you have the right to your opinion. that's not the same as stupid insults.


----------



## Furretsu

you know this forum's gone down the shitter when people start defending spam threads full of people posting gallade sprites they didn't even make


----------



## wolftamer9

Furretsu said:


> you know this forum's gone down the shitter when people start defending spam threads full of people posting gallade sprites they didn't even make


if the threads were as bad as you word it, then why were they popular?


----------



## Furretsu

because the average member on these forums is completely retarded

there was actually a time when the member base here valued quality, believe it or not


----------



## Negrek

> if the threads were as bad as you word it, then why were they popular?


I imagine because they were easy to create, they encouraged participation, and people love to feel like they're a part of something--even if it's something so small as a sprite army.

However, this is not the purpose of the sprite forum. The sprite forum is a place for one to showcase one's own spriting skills, or possibly to request a sprite from someone you think does them well. Sprite armies are made up of sprites that are probably already posted somewhere else anyway and serve no real purpose save to post in and feel good about yourself--nobody's going to searching through sprite armies to see all the Mewtwo sprites people on this forum have created. So I guess I'd call them fun to participate in, pretty pointless otherwise. To me, that sounds like something that'd be best suited for the insanity forum or forum games or something.

It's clear that many people enjoyed sprite armies, but the sprite forum is not the place for them, and they were interfering with the forum's actual function.



> there was actually a time when the member base here valued quality, believe it or not


I don't remember such a time, nor do I believe that a lack of appreciation for quality is what this board's most major problem is at this point. But, that's a rant for somewhere else entirely.

Don't really know why I responded to this thread. Blech.


----------



## Furretsu

Negrek said:


> I don't remember such a time, nor do I believe that a lack of appreciation for quality is what this board's most major problem is at this point. But, that's a rant for somewhere else entirely.


Oh? I'd be very interested in hearing more about this.

Not trying to be an ass here - I am honestly very curious. =P


----------



## Negrek

Well, long story short, I feel like on this forum it's become "cool" to be a jackass to everyone who isn't in your clique. Established members can do everything short of directly insult a member who doesn't meet their arbitrary standard of quality, and they can even do that frequently enough because the moderators usually turn their heads the other way.

For a forum that apparently prides itself so much on liberality and free-thinking, there's a lot of close-mindedness on this forum. People who don't type properly get screamed at, but it's avant-garde to post without capitalization or punctuation. Heaven forbid you do that if you haven't enough forum cred to get away with it, though.

Used to be that I'd recommend this forum to people because I felt it had higher standards than others, but nowadays I'd tell them to stay away, honestly. It doesn't take a lot to get someone on your case looking to grind your face in the dirt because you broke some unwritten rule of forum etiquette, or dared question some prevailing opinion.

Okay, so you're "right" and they're "wrong." Maybe you're so right and they're so wrong that I don't even need those quotation marks. That doesn't mean you have any excuse to treat them like dirt. It's perfectly possible to run a tight ship without making a mockery of everyone who doesn't meet your almighty standards. It's perfectly possible to express disagreement without making the opposition feel stupid or in general insulting them.

And it's not even good argument practice. If someone says, "I like IE because it's easy to use and I've never had a problem with it," there are some flaws in their argument. But making some snide remark about it, whether or not that remark is totally accurate, doesn't actually further your case. People don't respond well to what they perceive as attacks on their intelligence, and if your response is along the lines of "oh my _god_ I can't believe how people are too lazy to try something new why are they all such sheep why are they not as informed about this issue as I am here lesser being here are some resources to correct your egregious error in judgment" they are probably going to be less receptive to, say, switching to Firefox than they would be if you had been just *slightly* less offensive.

That, and the in-group does a lot of disgusting, "Yeah, you're so awesome. I'm so awesome. We're all so awesome--except _you_, you just don't measure up." There's a very powerful hierarchy here, and if you don't fit in near the top, you have to tread extremely carefully not to get ripped into.

Now, some members are strong enough to get through the derision phase. They clean up their posts, suck up to the right people, and eventually earn a favorable rating on the elite members' scale. But far more don't. Some would argue that that's a good thing, that we're driving out the dreck. But I think that it's not right for a small group of people to decide what sort of people are "acceptable" and discard all the others. Given time and--not even _encouragement_--a little time to learn how things work, most people do get better. 

So, I feel like people around here are drunk on power and prestige and quite happily taking it out on people who happen to not share their views or who haven't quite figured out how forum posting works. In the end, there are going to be lots of people on any forum whom you don't like, threads you don't like, whatever. But here people actually actively eliminate these things rather than realizing that not _everyone_'s forum experience is made favorable in the same way.

I know that if I hadn't joined here ages ago and had responsibilities to attend to, I would just be, "Well, fuck this. These people are just a load of dicks." and get the hell out of here. As it is, I rarely venture outside ASB and a couple other forums anymore because of all this nonsense. And I realize I'm far from blameless here--I've been harder than I should be on some people whom I just don't like, even though I try to be fair. I don't infract people, even when I think they should be infracted, for being assholes, because I'm too afraid for my own precious reputation and power to actually invite a contest of power against them.  I get snappy, I want to bash in the heads of people who are, in my opinion, just acting dumb. But I do try my best to be civil and explain _why_ I take issue with what they're saying rather than just letting them know that I think they're being stupid.

Which is not to say that I think everything should be roses and happiness and sunshine and omg friends!!! There are a lot of members who annoy me, too. There are some people who Just Don't Get it Why Are You Still Posting. But if they make a topic that's well-intentioned but dumb or ask a stupid question, then a bunch of people swoop in with stuff like "best thread ever" and in general have a good laugh at that member's expense, it not only makes those members look like complete jerks (which, in fact, they're being), but does nothing to actually improve that member's behavior.


So I guess I feel this forum has become more a place where you can express your opinion _if it pleases certain members in high places_ and where you can get away with just about anything if enough influential people find you "amusing." Where people would rather sneer at members who don't please Their Lordships or who are having fun in a way that is just omg so stupid you guys than actually attempt to change things. Well, whatever. I just don't find this forum's prevailing sense of humor pleasant at all.

...now look what you made me do. I was supposed to be working. ;-; Sorry if it doesn't make much sense, I wrote it all out of order.


----------



## Furretsu

I read through that whole post twice... and I must say, it's certainly enlightening. Not quite sure how I feel about it at the moment, but I'll perhaps get back to you when I do. Thank you for taking the time to post that.


----------



## Eevee

fishin for some trollans


You know.

I can srspost all day.  I can go into exquisite detail about why X tool is better, or why Y ethical stance is better, or why Z way of acting is better.  I think about all my decisions and I can write half-decently enough to express why I make them and when others should make the same.

The problem that arises is that most people do not care.  Many people don't even recognize the voice of experience, let alone consider listening to it.  So post after well-thought-out post falls on deaf ears, and a lot of time is wasted.  Why bother, then?  I gain more respect and attention by just yelling at people.  Maybe they don't listen to me, but negative attention is still better than being dismissed as irrelevant.  It's not just here, either; I've come to regret taking the time to write very good replies all over the blogotubes.

I'm not trying to defend being an arrogant dick.  I enjoy verbal combat, I enjoy others celebrating that I am okay at being an ass, I enjoy being _right_.  But there's no inclination to do otherwise.  Nobody would listen to me besides the half-dozen or so who already trust that I don't say things I'm not sure about.  I'm good enough at skirting being banned, and if I were, oh well; fewer things to get annoyed about.

Above all, though, there is zero social reason to try to help new members because the population as a whole does not think new members need helping.  The owner isn't around so much any more, either, to give any sort of cultural guidance.  There are more clueless pre-teens than not and they all encourage each other in some terrible prepubescent circlejerk.  They don't want to make quality threads; they just want to be entertained and don't understand why old memes are a bad thing.  They don't want to learn to use real tools; they want to pat each other on the back for their mediocre cookie-cutter results and don't understand why they should strive to do far better.  They don't want a deep and interesting debate; they want any answer for the unexplained, just to soothe the mental itch, and don't understand why that shouldn't be good enough.  Hell, a lot of the forums themselves don't lend themselves to many threads besides surveys.

And there's not really any group inclination to push them.

So, yes, I give up and just snark at people.  It's much faster and entertains a few other dicks.  In that sense, it often accomplishes much more than a srspost would.

You want to fix the forums?  Fix the culture.  I would cheerfully srspost all the time if I didn't think it would get pissed all over by preteens who are more obnoxious than I but far less deserving of being so.  I intended to do so if I ever got veekun's forums working worth a damn, with the assumption being that I could simply compensate for culture with moderation when necessary.

Also, putting up with it doesn't help.  I'm a dick when I think I have a decent excuse, but I'm not a dick just to be a dick.  I don't snark at anyone unless I genuinely think they have it coming.  I'm not going to sic the veelluminati on you for calling me out when I cross the line.


----------



## Retsu

Eevee said:


> Above all, though, there is zero social reason to try to help new members because the population as a whole does not think new members need helping.  The owner isn't around so much any more, either, to give any sort of cultural guidance.  There are more clueless pre-teens than not and they all encourage each other in some terrible prepubescent circlejerk.  They don't want to make quality threads; they just want to be entertained and don't understand why old memes are a bad thing.


Would your outlook change if all of this was remedied?


----------



## Eevee

Eevee said:


> I would cheerfully srspost all the time if...


----------



## Retsu

I suppose that makes sense. Sorry I don't have more to say; I'm quite torn between Negrek's point about the lack of civility and yours about its uselessness.


----------



## Eevee

Practical problems.

There is of course the obvious argument that I should just be civil anyway, but then why read threads at all when half of them are frustrating and giving real answers will just lead to more frustration?


----------



## Retsu

You mentioned in your post that fixing the culture itself would solve a lot of problems. Is there any practical way to go about doing this?


----------



## Eevee

I don't know.  You'd need enough people who care enough to try to gain influence and spread a focus on _quality_.  That's hard to do, and there are a whoooole lot of people we've perhaps never even seen who post plenty but keep it to some specific forum.


----------



## Zeph

*Re: Not to be rude, but...*



Mewtwo said:


> I took the JPEGness away from them- ah, just forget it.
> 
> And I think ZC abandoned his adoptables. Pikachu hasn't gained anymore cracks, and my Oddidh egg still wont crack!


No I didn't. I just haven't sprited for a while. When I feel like it, I'll update the adoptables.

And I agree 100% with Negrek.

Oh, and congratulations Furret/Retsu.


----------



## Arylett Charnoa

Negrek said it all. So marvelously, so greatly, so perfectly summed up. In a way that I never could.

I'm going to be truthful. This is a forum with many snarky mean people who encourage others to do the same.  I do not like this. I'm even afraid to post this, for fear that I get mocked or worse - snarked at so bad that I'll sigh and wonder why the hell I posted this, wonder why the hell I even bothered and feel basically rendered to a useless pile of jelly who can't do anything coherantly. But I feel I need to say this. Even if my opinion is _stupid_ or _unimportant_ because I'm just some stupid little teeny member who doesn't mean anything. Even if I don't fit in anywhere with the _cool people_.

Don't you think that quality would increase if you were just /nicer/ to people? Nobody likes to be insulted. And as Negrek said, they are least receptive to insults. When I'm insulted, do I want to listen to anything the person says? No. They just seem like a stupid jerk and I block out all of their jerky words. Because they attacked my person, my intelligence, meaning that their entire opinion is rendered a load of crap in my eyes, because me being _stupid_ is a load of crap. Nobody wants to believe that they're stupid and they don't believe much of what you say either when you are condescending towards them, most likely. And that's really what's happening. When people feel attacked, they go into the "This person is bad and I'm the victim here." mode. And when they feel like that, they don't want to listen to the bad villanous person, because they are evil because they insulted them and evil people can only say lies. 

You can attract more flies with honey than vinegar. Being nicer would probably make people more receptive to what you have to say. They'll be like: "Ooooh, this person is nice. Perhaps they have something worth saying." And of course, there will always be the person who never learns. But a lot of people do learn, if explained to carefully and properly. And most of all, nicely. I listen to nice people. And I block out mean ones. Most people probably do the same. 

This forum is so uptight. Sometimes I feel as if I can't even breathe, I can't post somewhere and rest without the fear of one of the _cool people_ ripping apart my post bit by bit and explaining just exactly how _stupid_ I am for even bothering to try to contribute something to the discussion. I thought we were here to have fun. Here for amusement. Isn't that what forums are for? For people to enjoy themselves? And yet my enjoyment declines.

Nobody's going to listen to me. To my post probably. I'll probably just be ignored. Either that or I'll just get snarked at and told that I'm _stupid_ for even bothering to put out my opinion, with my post being torn to absolute shreds, it being explained carefully how stupid I really am, carefully so I can understand, because my _stupid_ mind needs to be insulted in order for me to understand how utterly wrong I am. I'm not _cool_ enough to have this opinion. Because that's what always happens when Insignificant Member 117 posts. And that's okay, because I've really become sick of all this. And I'm tired of keeping my mouth shut. I needed to say this.


----------



## Seritinajii

I love Negrek's and Arylett's posts, which make a lot of sense. I agree a lot.

But this isn't about the spriting board anymore, so why don't we just close it?


----------



## ultraviolet

No, I don't think we should close this thread. More people need to read Arylett's and Negrek's posts, which raise too many good points about the forum. 



> not really. dragon cave wasn't the first to make adoptables, so they weren't original, just of good quality. there have been adoptables for a long time.


_I know_. The point is that the Cave's sprites did well because they were original and they looked cool. The ones on these boards aren't, and most of the time they don't get updated/hatched anyway. No one is putting effort into these things; they're doing it so people flock to their threads and they gain popularity.



> ... you have the right to your opinion. that's not the same as stupid insults.


Uh, what? I said _adoptables _are stupid. I guess you could go as far to say that I insulted the adoptables, but I hardly think the static pixels are really going to mind.


----------



## Retsu

Seritinajii said:


> But this isn't about the spriting board anymore, so why don't we just close it?


As long as people are doing it constructively, I see no reason to block further discussion.


----------



## Music Dragon

Well, guys. The stuff that Negrek and Arylett have pointed out - isn't that totally old news? 

I mean, come on. Who here has _not_ noticed what utter jerks people have become? I won't bother to provide you with an example, because seriously, you've seen it yourself.

Okay, so I do it myself a lot. I guess it rubs off. Sometimes I think about it and hate myself for it, because I detest hypocrisy - which is hypocritical of me, since I am a hypocrite myself (and the reason that I am a hypocrite is that I detest hypocrisy, which is hypocritical because I am a hypocrite, which I am because I detest hypocrisy, which...).

It's a pity, when you think about it... I mean, all of these "snarky, mean people" are actually wonderful, kind-at-heart individuals. And of course I can understand why they act the way they do, why they get fed up with all the idiots we have around here. It is a right shame though...! All of the forum bigshots possess intelligence in abundance, but unfortunately some of them lack the wisdom to use it properly.

Still. What can I say? It's... Well, I don't know. I'm not as eloquent as Negrek, Eevee and Arylett, and I don't even have a point to get across...

I don't usually find myself being the butt of any spiteful comments, but that day will come soon enough...! I may be a forum regular, but as it happens, I am not part of any cliques; there are no real relations between me and the big, important members. I am not _insured_, so to speak.

I guess I wish people would change their ways, but it's not really something I think about very much. I'm not requesting that anyone change their behaviour to suit my ideals. But it would be great if you - yes, _you_ - took the time to think about what you're saying before you post - not only on an intellectual level, but an emotional...


----------



## spaekle

Both Negrek and Arylett bring up some awesome points. I agree wholeheartedly with both of them. :] 

I feel like I have something to say on this subject, but I'm not sure how well I can get it out. So, I apologize if this post turns out to be one huge ramble with no real point. I'm sorry if all of this is old news, or if I'm just stating the obvious. I am kind of in a hurry. :[ 

This place is semi-known, I guess, for being a place full of dicks and teenage angst drama. Yeah, I've heard people talking about it on other forums. Most of the time this 'drama' comes from either people whining about how many stupid members there are, or people whining about how mean everyone else is. First of all, if you're wanting 'quality members' and not 'stupid preteens', the Pokemon fandom is not the place to be looking. I'm sorry, but it's true. This place really is the best sizeable Pokemon forum I've ever seen member-wise. Go spend a week or two at Pokecommunity or Serebii and _then_ try and tell me that this place is full of idiots. 

The seeming inability of some people to express an opinion that conflicts with someone else's without being an ass about it annoys me, too. You don't have to type an essay about why you disagree, but you don't have to make a post with little purpose other than berating the member, either. I understand that some people are stubborn, and a lot of those people are going to be stubborn whether you're nice or mean to them - but is it better to make a huge scene just to prove that YOU ARE RIGHT and THEY ARE WRONG?

Do I think this place is really going to improve just because of this thread? No, not really. I guess it can be argued that I'm just wasting my time, but I really do agree with Negrek and Arylett. And, I mean, I've said/done some things that were probably rude just because I felt like I could get away with saying/doing them, since, after all, "everyone else is doing it." Maybe I was in a bad mood or it seemed funny at the time. Maybe that's what it is a lot of the time, with a lot of people. But I'm not really proud of it. 

I really do like this forum - I respect people here for being intelligent, and there are a hell of a lot of nice people. I'm sure that the people who act this way are nice people too, like MD said. But I do wish things like this would stop happening. I mean, come on. :\


----------



## Altmer

I agree with Eevee on this one.


----------



## opaltiger

> You can attract more flies with honey than vinegar.


while I agree with your post, and Negrek's, and vee's this was way way way too good to pass up

I think a large part of the problem is that some members are afraid to post beyond certain basic things because they think they will be torn into. Not quite the image you want to get across, obviously, but the only way to fix that is to _not_ tear into those people who do post 'out of line'.

Furret, to answer your question: in my opinion the first step is to give everyone a chance. If someone says or does something stupid, correct them politely; if they continue doing the same thing, well, then you are perfectly justified in your annoyance. Snapping right off the bat, though, just makes it seem like you're being mean for the sake of it.

There definitely is a hierarchy, sure. Some people have been here longer, are more 'seen', logically there opinions would be valued more highly, and yes, logically they would get away with certain things. This is because, even if they do toe the line upon occasion, over all they have proven themselves to be intelligent. Leading back into my first point, the problem is that newer members aren't been given a chance.

So, in short, what I'm trying to say here is, be nice! For a while. If being nice doesn't seem to be getting you anywhere, you are very much justified to get pissed off.


----------



## Ruby

About Negrek's ideas' becoming actions, in the first place why not create a rule against minimodding, and then lengthen and enforce Rule #14.


----------



## Capitain Jay

I'm gonna be a fencesitter in this post. This forum. Certain members are being dicks to newbies. That happens elsewhere, of course. But that doesn't mean that we have to join in. We can be supportive. We have shown that ability. We don't use it that much. Hell, I don't use it that much. That's how much of an unforgiving place the internet has become. Being nice has become rare. However, if everyone on this forum was nice to each other for one day, good would come from it. It'd show those who are usually the whipping boys of our assholiness that we can make them feel welcome.

On the other side of the coin, as it were, I'm surprised the aforementioned whipping boys are still here. We're dicks, guys. If you don't like it, get out. That's the message we're delivering. And why not keep on transmitting it? The world would be better without idiots. Let's discourage them; stop them from getting anywhere in life. And for the rest of the members; let's impose our tastes upon them. Palin is retarded. Obama rocks. The metal genre is the best. Linkin Park and Sum 41 suck balls. Our opinion is right, yours is wrong.

I have to admit, I am guilty of doing the first half of that paragraph. I thought that being a dick would help someone. It didn't. Being nice influences people just as much as being dicks, if not more. In fact, I have an idea. A full day. Being nice non-stop. From midnight UTC+14 one day to midnight UTC-12 the next.

Ok, I lied. This wasn't a fencesitter post. It was leaning over to niceness. But it got my opinion across. That's all that matters. That you get your opinion across, and it isn't smashed down by everyone else with already-bloodied chainsaws and pitchforks.

Whatever.

From midnight UTC+14 30th September to midnight UTC-12 1st October, be nice.


----------



## Tailsy

I knew there was a reason I regularly put Forum Discussion on hide!

You're all typing too much. tl;dr makes me sleep, so.

IN A NUTSHELL:
we don't like that people are mean but instead of just ignoring stupid wankers who have nothing better to do than _insult people over the internet_ we're going to complain about it and reiterate what someone else has already said!

People are going to be dicks. There's no way around the fact that people can be awful. But if you're just going to sit and be afraid to challenge them for being cockheads then what's the point? Stand up for yourself, bitches! 

I CALL RIOT

I'M AT THE FRONT

HEY I'M THE ONE WITH THE FOGHORN PISS OFF

NOW YOU, PUT YOUR LAME DOWN AND YOUR HANDS UP

I'M GOING TO MOLEST YOU NOW

AND EAT YOUR ROLL ON PIE
NOM NOM NOM


----------



## Altmer

I think this forum just contains too many cases of pebkac.


----------



## surskitty

I HAD A FREAKING LONG POST BUT THEN THE BOARD ATE IT.  rrrrrr also there is a difference between a failure to capitalize + punctuate sentences and a noticeable failure to spell or type coherently.  One's lazy; one's lazy and illegible.  BY THE WAY if my tendency for the former is ever actually incomprehensible rather than merely annoying I AM NOT GOING TO YELL AT YOU you know that right?  I get the impression that part of the problem is that people think that if they say an opinion different from the loudest members, they'll be snarked at and possibly hounded.  This is tends to depend on the subject matter, but does not seem to be anywhere near as common as believed.  (but then I am Captain Oblivious)  It typically has a great deal more to do with presentation or if you've happened to already make some type of negative impression and not mildly, at that.  

Yes, people have a tendency to be dicks to newbies, but it usually has a great deal more to do with how someone acts rather than whether they've been here for very long. 


@RUBY: doesn't minimodding count as spam already?

@ CAPITAIN JAY: many opinions are insisted upon because they make sense.  Some are just people being asses, sure, and they're not exactly making their case in a reasonable way (so they're still being asses), but they aren't necessarily _wrong_.  



also I mainly agree with Eevee


----------



## Ruby

surskitty said:


> @RUBY: doesn't minimodding count as spam already?


In practice it probably does.  But there is no mention of minimodding in the rules.


----------



## surskitty

Um, yes there is.


----------



## Ruby

Oh, I only just noticed that part.


----------



## Arylett Charnoa

I don't really think some of you people will ever change. Because whenever someone brings up something like this, you'll all HAHAHAHAHA, lulz these forums are stupid everyone is stupid blah blah there is no hope we will always be dramalamas 

No.

Do you really think you're going to change anything like that? With that attitude? I don't. But you'll all always be like this, if this has happened many times in the past. 

No, I don't think you guys are evil and I don't hate you. But you sure as hell do make me mad when you'll all mean like that. Patience. Most of you seem to have a short fuse. I understand, some people just are just /asking/ for it. Give people a chance first. Or at least try. Because really, I don't believe in snarking at anyone, no matter how stupid. Most people don't deserve to be insulted, they deserve to be guided. If someone is being stupid, guide them in the right direction. If they won't listen, then let them be. There is no need to /snark/ off at them, seeing as how you're only giving them extra attention, and thus perpetuating their _stupidity_ in the first place. Plus you're just wasting your time, because as I've said before, insulting someone is no way to get them to listen to you. And it's still unhelpful, I think. It doesn't help anyone at all and creates a very oppressive environment. Don't you understand? It's like being in a minefield. We're all treading very carefully, so as to avoid stepping on any mines.

But that's okay, like I've said, that's absolutely fine. Continue to act in this manner, if you'd like. If you don't want to change, I can't force you. I know that I won't be listened to, I have no _impact_, no _coolness_, I am _nobody_ to you. Who the _hell_ am I anyway, just some random forum member who decided to pop up? Just somebody who doesn't _matter_. You're not going to change and I know it. But I'm not going to let you ruin my experience here. Because you know something? I really like this place, for some insane reason. I have a lot of fun and there _are_ a lot of nice people here, nice people I've met who I am grateful to have gotten the chance to speak to. And I'm not leaving just because some _cool people_ are lurking, waiting hungrily to jump and tear apart the next _uninsured_ (if I may borrow your term, MD) _insignificant_ _wrong _person who makes a mistake or doesn't agree with them. Because I could be missing out on the chance to meet even more lovely people.

I'm tired of keeping quiet, I'm tired of letting people step all over me. I needed to say this too. 

And you know what?

It felt good.


----------



## Retsu

Arylett, your accusations are perfectly valid; however, you really do need to look at it from the other side's point of view as well. I only say this because scanning through your posts (which all feel like regurgitation of Negrek's, honestly) it feels as though you haven't even looked at it from the other side of the spectrum. Defending yourself is all well and good, but sometimes it is a balance that is ideal. I believe this is a situation where that applies.


----------



## Arylett Charnoa

Regurgitation of Negrek's. Huh.

I /know/ they get angry and I /know/ people can be stupid. And they have a right to get annoyed. They can do that, sometimes it's hard to keep your patience. I know I had some trouble with my patience in that post. I had just about had it. Still I believe that I am right. My point still stands, if someone is being stupid and won't listen, just let them be. You can't always do this, but you can try. 

Honestly, I know I'm not going to be listened to. I wasn't really arguing, I was just saying my honest opinion. I felt like saying it. And now I did. And I feel that it was pointless, but I still feel better after letting it be known.


----------



## Retsu

Have you read through Eevee's post? He addresses this quite clearly.


			
				Eevee said:
			
		

> Above all, though, there is zero social reason to try to help new members because the population as a whole does not think new members need helping. The owner isn't around so much any more, either, to give any sort of cultural guidance. There are more clueless pre-teens than not and they all encourage each other in some terrible prepubescent circlejerk. They don't want to make quality threads; they just want to be entertained and don't understand why old memes are a bad thing. They don't want to learn to use real tools; they want to pat each other on the back for their mediocre cookie-cutter results and don't understand why they should strive to do far better. They don't want a deep and interesting debate; they want any answer for the unexplained, just to soothe the mental itch, and don't understand why that shouldn't be good enough. Hell, a lot of the forums themselves don't lend themselves to many threads besides surveys.


Not saying I agree with him completely, as I am still quite undecided. However, it does provide some insight.


----------



## King Clam

I am not going to read this thread.

Spriting should always take the backseat to real art.

It's only pixel art if the pixels belong to you.

edit: oh god furret told me there was serious conversation going on

still don't really care


----------



## Arylett Charnoa

Retsu said:


> Have you read through Eevee's post? He addresses this quite clearly.
> 
> Not saying I agree with him completely, as I am still quite undecided. However, it does provide some insight.


Did you think I didn't read it? It still fails to convince me. Really, I see it as a "survival of the fittest" sort of thing. Weed out the _unworthy_. They're not worthy to be taught, so just insult them. The reason they do these things is because they don't know any better. Shouldn't we be the ones to teach them? If they don't understand, explain to them. And if they don't /want/ to understand, ignore them. There is no need to snark. And really, all these are are _Pokémon_ forums. How can we expect people to be like _that_? The way he describes, it makes it sound like he expects all the people on these forums make Long Essay Posts and be the most Intelligent Debators. What standards. For a forum, in which entertainment is to be had. 

Unless there's something I failed to understand. In which case you might need to point it out very clearly, because I sometimes lack the swiftness of mentality.


----------



## spaekle

People are listening to you, Arylett. Some people aren't agreeing, but they're listening. 

I don't really understand where the whole "good god this place is full of dumbfucks" position is coming from. There are a few rather dim members, true, but is this place really that bad compared to other forums with the same focus, or the rest of the internet in general, even? If you could show me an example of a forum populated entirely by mature  individuals who are there for deep, intelligent discussion, I'd like to see it. I'm not trying to be a smartass or anything; I'd just like to see an example of what you would consider a 'good forum community'. Although if you show me one I bet it's not going to be a _Pokemon_ forum.

I understand that it's good to exchange ideas and have some serious discussions, and I realize that with a lot of people that's just not possible. When no one wants to actually discuss anything and threads end up being nothing but "What's your favorite drink?" "I like pepsi! ^____^" "Pepsi's cool!" "No, mountain dew!" then that is pretty annoying; I agree. It's annoying when people just won't see the other side of the argument; It's annoying when people won't listen to your criticism on their artwork and realize that you're trying to help them; it's annoying when people won't take your advice. But, is there really any way to fix this? Not really. And, so, we're at the point where people just give up and start being dicks. Hey, if numerous attempts at calmly explaining your side of the argument just aren't working and it's clear that this person is just not listening, if they seem to just be asking for it, then I don't really mind if it takes a blunt slap-in-the-face post to wake them up.

However, that's not really what bothers me the most. The thing that bothers me is when people start bitching about how useless forums like Forum Games are and how most of the members are stupid and how if someone makes a thread that you don't think is funny then it's perfectly okay to give them hell. 

Rule 14, basically. And there's really not much more I can say. I'm probably already just echoing people. :\


----------



## Alexi

Just gonna pop in and say: If people are acting stupid, give them a break and try to give advice in a neutral way, for lack of a better word. I wouldn't say be all lovey dovey and motherly, but don't be snarky, either. Just be honest, don't insult, but don't look for compliments to hurl at random, either.

Also: DON'T INSULT PEOPLE IN THE CC THREADS. People have problems too, and unless they're being total dicks to you, there's no way to insult them just because they pissed you off elsewhere. Gawd, I hate that _so much_. Not really sure how relevent this is, but hey, it's out now.


----------



## Altmer

> Did you think I didn't read it? It still fails to convince me. Really, I see it as a "survival of the fittest" sort of thing. Weed out the unworthy. They're not worthy to be taught, so just insult them. The reason they do these things is because they don't know any better. Shouldn't we be the ones to teach them? If they don't understand, explain to them. And if they don't /want/ to understand, ignore them. There is no need to snark. And really, all these are are Pokémon forums. How can we expect people to be like that? The way he describes, it makes it sound like he expects all the people on these forums make Long Essay Posts and be the most Intelligent Debators. What standards. For a forum, in which entertainment is to be had.


No, I expect people to post quality posts. Problem is people don't care about quality, as they (quote from Vee) "engage in their terrible prepubescent circle jerks." People don't care about learning. If someone was trying to be a good poster, I'd help them, but most people just don't get it and never will and for the sake of quality control they should get the fuck out. Internet memes belong on 4chan and not on this forum period. I am bored to fucking tears with people throwing good advice away. I cannot be fucking arsed to put on a smiley face towards every noob that comes in, I'm fucking sorry. If you post retarded shit, I will call you out. Wherever you post.Z

That includes the fucking CC because also in that forum if you post like a retard it's still not allowed. I don't care if it fucken hurts your feelings then. People have got to learn the lesson: POSTING QUALITY HAS TO BE RAISED. I cannot be fucking arsed with people whining their asses off about how they have no fucking life and no gf at fucking THIRTEEN YEARS OLD. Seriously, what the fuck happened to people? When I was thirteen it wasn't even an issue. Get some sense of fucken reality, people. It doesn't work like that. People don't fucken respond to nice guy attitudes. It just doesn't work. I'm fucking sick of having to take every retarded poster who can't string a sentence worth a damn together seriously and I'm not gonna. If you wanna be a good poster, prove that you fucking want to learn to be one.


----------



## Tailsy

Shouting about people being dicks in CC threads doesn't work. I try, lol.


----------



## Altmer

i yell at people in the cc because THEY ARE FULL OF FUCKING SHIT

duh

a whine forum isn't an excuse to be your retarded self


----------



## Arylett Charnoa

Altmer said:


> No, I expect people to post quality posts. Problem is people don't care about quality, as they (quote from Vee) "engage in their terrible prepubescent circle jerks." People don't care about learning. If someone was trying to be a good poster, I'd help them, but most people just don't get it and never will and for the sake of quality control they should get the fuck out. Internet memes belong on 4chan and not on this forum period. I am bored to fucking tears with people throwing good advice away. I cannot be fucking arsed to put on a smiley face towards every noob that comes in, I'm fucking sorry. If you post retarded shit, I will call you out. Wherever you post.Z
> 
> That includes the fucking CC because also in that forum if you post like a retard it's still not allowed. I don't care if it fucken hurts your feelings then. People have got to learn the lesson: POSTING QUALITY HAS TO BE RAISED. I cannot be fucking arsed with people whining their asses off about how they have no fucking life and no gf at fucking THIRTEEN YEARS OLD. Seriously, what the fuck happened to people? When I was thirteen it wasn't even an issue. Get some sense of fucken reality, people. It doesn't work like that. People don't fucken respond to nice guy attitudes. It just doesn't work. I'm fucking sick of having to take every retarded poster who can't string a sentence worth a damn together seriously and I'm not gonna. If you wanna be a good poster, prove that you fucking want to learn to be one.


Spaekle's post said a lot of what I wanted to say, and much more coherantly. It addresses these things probably better than I could, but I'll still try anyway.

Is bitching at them is /really/ going to make things better? I cannot say this enough, when people get bitched at, most of the time, they don't /listen/. But if you want to chase people away (_weed out the weak_) instead of actually teaching them something, go right ahead. 

I'm going to repeat myself. This is a forum. In which entertainment is to be had. There is never any excuse to be rude to anyone. And I don't care if they need a "grip" on reality or if they're "fucking retarded". I understand the desire for Quality Posts, but I think this is no way to get it. I agree with what Alexi said. Be neutral. If they don't respond countless times, then ignore them. And if they won't leave you alone, only then do I believe that you should give them a talking to, get mad. But there will always be people like this. Always. And I don't think there will ever be a way to get rid of the _Uneducated._ People like this have existed ever since societies sprang up. Some people don't want to hear it, some people don't want to learn. Scorning them causes them to flock together, flock together in little groups and discuss how /stupid/ and /mean/ we are. And it'll cause them to keep acting the way they do. I think it might even encourage them, because they don't want to be like the mean evil people who insulted them.

And the Coughing Cupboard is supposed a place where people can /express/ their feelings without fear of being mocked. Or so they think. When people post there, they may be angry, they may be upset, they may not be thinking _clearly_. Like I've said, I think you guys really lack patience. 

But really, that isn't the point. I understand if you snark at someone who won't listen to you countless times. The point is that you guys go off within /seconds/ of spotting someone making a mistake. You don't really give people a chance. You'll just assume they'll always be stupid newbies and attack them. All you do is write people off. And really, you go and you snark regardless of whether it's a newbie. It could be anyone (anyone not _important_ or _cool_, regardless of whether they're a newbie), if they disagree with you, you'll gang up on them like a pack of wolves. If they so much as make /one/ mistake, you're there, kicking dirt in their eyes. You encourage this behavior, the behavior of laughing at somebody's expense. And many appear appear to share my feelings on this subject, many people feel the same. They feel their enjoyment being infringed upon, because nobody wants to be insulted. And nobody wants to be bitched at. People are afraid of you. They feel as if they cannot say /anything/ without fear of the Big Bad Cool People coming in and snarkety snarking. And not everyone has the guts to stand up and say something.


----------



## Altmer

I indeed lack patience when it comes to stupidity. Most problems exist between the keyboard and the monitor.


----------



## Ruby

g8tr, you are a terrible bore nowadays.


----------



## Tailsy

Altmer said:


> i yell at people in the cc because THEY ARE FULL OF FUCKING SHIT
> 
> duh
> 
> a whine forum isn't an excuse to be your retarded self


I'M SORRY, BUT YOU WANTING TO BE A DICK TO PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY DON'T SHARE YOUR OPINION IS STUPID AND I WILL CALL YOU OUT ON BEING A DICK

I HAVE ALREADY DONE THAT

A WHINE FORUM
IS FOR WHINING

YOU ARE PERFECTLY ALLOWED TO WHINE ABOUT WHATEVER THE FUCK YOU WANT

shut _up_ altmer


----------



## Altmer

i happen to disagree. you can whine and not be a retarded dumbfuck about it.



> BUT YOU WANTING TO BE A DICK TO PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY DON'T SHARE YOUR OPINION IS STUPID


i dont care if they dont share my opinion their opinions are just shit. you can have any opinion as long as you can back it up.


----------



## ultraviolet

> i happen to disagree you can whine and not be a retarded dumbfuck about it


Snark isn't going to change a retard; they're just going to post crap back and you'll still hate them anyway. If you can't post helpfully then uh, don't post? Whatever happened to ignoring people who irritate you?


----------



## Altmer

it entertains a few other dicks

read eevee's post I agree with him


----------



## Arylett Charnoa

And it leaves the rest of us angry and offended and oppressed.

These forums _aren't_ just about a few "dicks". It's about the enjoyment of the whole. It's about _all_ of us, not just the Elite Few being entertained and everyone else being insulted. We're all here to have fun. But _not_ at other people's expenses.


----------



## Altmer

i don't consider a teenage prepubescent circle jerk of low quality posts entertainment, i consider that crap


----------



## Minish

Altmer said:


> it entertains a few other dicks


Basically, I think all the snarkiness here is based around entertainment. I hear what Arylett says, that things like this just shouldn't happen on a forum, which is an outlet for entertainment. But then you could also say the things that happen here _are_ for entertainment. After snarking at someone, do you really go away thinking you gave them a good lesson? That you made a difference? You just want to entertain yourself by laughing at others. And entertain a few other people, thus improving your reputation. Because mostly, you get respect from other snarkies by saying things that are allegedly witty, amusing, etc. It makes me really feel sick.

There's nothing left to say, Negrek's made too good an example for me to follow and Arylett's basically put most of my views forward. xD But I will say this - what more could you expect? We're a forum made of up hormonal teenagers scrabbling around in the dirt.

What gives you the right to declare what 'good quality posts' are? I trust that all your posts will be sufficient quality, right? Since you're the judge? To them, their posts are quality. To you, your posts are quality. And to people better than you, _yes they do exist_, their posts are quality.

Quality is not to be decided by - sorry - someone who doesn't seem particularly more intelligent than everybody else. But of course, you must be intelligent. Because snarkiness and laughing at other people's expenses is really mature and intelligent and worthwhile. Obviously. There are better ways of expressing your intelligence, and although I agreed with Eevee up until this point, I was disgusted when he basically said you can't be bothered to make big posts because nobody appreciates them, or whatever. So you just don't bother.

Just like a bully - they have a good heart, and deep down they know it. But what's the pont of being good? They'll get more attention if they're bad; and anyway, it takes less effort. Oh yeah, and it's amusing.

Instant trend~! Congratulations, you just fucked up the forums.


----------



## Arylett Charnoa

Your opinion. Some people may be amused, some people might not think it's "teenage prepubescent circle jerk". I'm going to say this, and I don't mean to be rude or mean, but I'm going to say it. Nobody cares if you think it's crap. If other people enjoy it, but you dislike it, then don't say anything at all. Saying that it's crap, snarking at people, insulting them for having fun and infringing on their enjoyment, you're just ruining everyone's fun. Cirrus said a lot of what I wanted to say. It helps /nobody/ except a few jerks.


----------



## Tailsy

Altmer said:


> i don't consider a teenage prepubescent circle jerk of low quality posts entertainment, i consider that crap


I don't _give a shit_ about what YOU think

no matter how crap you think that particular thread it does not give you the right to come in and piss on everyone's fun/advice-giving/whatever

it's childish


----------



## Cryssie

Negrek's post is full of so much truth.

Predictably, I am on the "hey guys, let's be nice" side of things. I loathe stupidity as much as the next person, but nine times out of ten, snarking somebody to hell and back does nothing but provoke defensive hostility. _Nobody_ likes to be insulted.

If you're such intelligent, superior people with such a comprehensive understanding of the human race, then deal with it in an _intelligent way_. I'm not asking you spend hours typing an essay explaining in precise and formally polite detail exactly what a person is doing that you consider wrong, but unconstructive, insulting snark is just going to cause trouble.

Age is probably a significant factor in this. I know I was a veritable idiot when I first arrived five or so years ago. So were many of us. If I was the same person I was five years ago joining now, I would probably be ripped apart and be regularly featured on #tcod's Idiots of the Moment list.

_No amount of snark and biting sarcasm would have instantly and miraculously made me stop being a idiot and be like I have come to be now_. Only time and experience could do that, but a little gentle advice here and there never hurt either. 

But some of us seem to expect the new younger members here to magically all have the maturity and intelligence of someone several years older now that we do, because heaven forbid that someone of ten or twelve years of age should join a Pokémon forum.

As for "being a dick entertains other dicks," could you try to find a slightly less juvenile and offensive way of amusing one another, please?



> i don't consider a teenage prepubescent circle jerk of low quality posts entertainment, i consider that crap


Then:

a) What are you doing on a Pokémon forum?
b) Either ignore it, enlighten them in constructive a way that will not cause arguments (if they're actually doing anything _wrong_), or get out.
c) I could well consider all the snarky, insulting posts on here to be "low quality."
d) I fail to see how the younger members of the forum entertaining one another in ways that you happen to find stupid is any worse than the exalted members of the jerk squad descending from their privileged roost on high to _pick on and laugh at them_ to entertain one another.


----------



## Altmer

> You know.
> 
> I can srspost all day. I can go into exquisite detail about why X tool is better, or why Y ethical stance is better, or why Z way of acting is better. I think about all my decisions and I can write half-decently enough to express why I make them and when others should make the same.
> 
> The problem that arises is that most people do not care. Many people don't even recognize the voice of experience, let alone consider listening to it. So post after well-thought-out post falls on deaf ears, and a lot of time is wasted. Why bother, then? I gain more respect and attention by just yelling at people. Maybe they don't listen to me, but negative attention is still better than being dismissed as irrelevant. It's not just here, either; I've come to regret taking the time to write very good replies all over the blogotubes.
> 
> I'm not trying to defend being an arrogant dick. I enjoy verbal combat, I enjoy others celebrating that I am okay at being an ass, I enjoy being right. But there's no inclination to do otherwise. Nobody would listen to me besides the half-dozen or so who already trust that I don't say things I'm not sure about. I'm good enough at skirting being banned, and if I were, oh well; fewer things to get annoyed about.
> 
> Above all, though, there is zero social reason to try to help new members because the population as a whole does not think new members need helping. The owner isn't around so much any more, either, to give any sort of cultural guidance. There are more clueless pre-teens than not and they all encourage each other in some terrible prepubescent circlejerk. They don't want to make quality threads; they just want to be entertained and don't understand why old memes are a bad thing. They don't want to learn to use real tools; they want to pat each other on the back for their mediocre cookie-cutter results and don't understand why they should strive to do far better. They don't want a deep and interesting debate; they want any answer for the unexplained, just to soothe the mental itch, and don't understand why that shouldn't be good enough. Hell, a lot of the forums themselves don't lend themselves to many threads besides surveys.
> 
> And there's not really any group inclination to push them.
> 
> So, yes, I give up and just snark at people. It's much faster and entertains a few other dicks. In that sense, it often accomplishes much more than a srspost would.
> 
> You want to fix the forums? Fix the culture. I would cheerfully srspost all the time if I didn't think it would get pissed all over by preteens who are more obnoxious than I but far less deserving of being so. I intended to do so if I ever got veekun's forums working worth a damn, with the assumption being that I could simply compensate for culture with moderation when necessary.
> 
> Also, putting up with it doesn't help. I'm a dick when I think I have a decent excuse, but I'm not a dick just to be a dick. I don't snark at anyone unless I genuinely think they have it coming. I'm not going to sic the veelluminati on you for calling me out when I cross the line.


why don't you guys fucken read this thing

people don't listen to normal advice either, that is the whole fucken point. i'd be a nice guy like you guys know I can be but 90% of the time people don't give a fucking shit.

I cannot be bothered to fucking post if people don't make an effort to improve posting quality and stop hammering on about old unfunny fads. If they want their internet meme fun, they can go to fucking 4chan.

and cryssy fyi pokemon can have very interesting discussions it's just that "what is your favourite fire type" doesn't lead to much of a discussion


----------



## Minish

Altmer said:


> why don't you guys fucken read this thing
> 
> people don't listen to normal advice either, that is the whole fucken point. i'd be a nice guy like you guys know I can be but 90% of the time people don't give a fucking shit


Reading Eevee's post any more than we already have isn't going to make us follow his point of view. Just because we're still questioning you doesn't mean we haven't read what you've said.



> Just like a bully - they have a good heart, and deep down they know it. But what's the pont of being good? They'll get more attention if they're bad; and anyway, it takes less effort. Oh yeah, and it's amusing.


So why are 'nice guys like us' still nice people? I'd rather be known to be just another nice person than one of the few well-respected-but-generally-disliked members, really. Just because 'nobody' gives a fucking shit about being nice, means you should stop? That's how _the entire forum is slowly sinking into an oppressive, snarky hellhole~_

And then there are the twelve/thirteen year olds here who look up to you guys as _role models_ and will certainly become like you when they're older. It should be the other way around. People should be be _nice_ to impress others.


----------



## Altmer

lol the forum is a hellhole

it's
a
fucking
internet
forum
who
fucking
cares
its
not
like
some
posts
on
the
internet
are
the
end
of
the
fucking
world

jesus fucking christ



> And then there are the twelve/thirteen year olds here who look up to you guys as role models and will certainly become like you when they're older. It should be the other way around. People should be be nice to impress others.


respect has to be earned. i am cautious towards anyone and will reward good posting with nice manners. i reward idiocy with anger and sarcasm. that's how it is. I don't need to spend my time arguing with idiots when they don't listen. You saw that desolater66 thread: post good advice, he throws it in your face anyway. It doesn't matter. You can be nice, some people just don't take that. You have to realise this is a fucking internet forum and I am here for my entertainment too and being all fucking prepubescent jerks fapping to 4chan meme and unfunny things ruins MY fun. Why should your circlejerk take precedence over mine?

You could, uh, you know, post good funny things instead?


----------



## Arylett Charnoa

This is a forum, made to entertain people. And if people feel it's a hellhole, then there is a serious problem. And if we're going by your logic, then who "fucking" cares if some people think some things are crap? They still shouldn't ruin everyone's fun. You're the ones who appear to be making a big deal of this, it's /just/ a Pokémon forum. Why make a big deal because some people made a few mistakes? Or if they say "stupid" things?

And I'll repeat myself. If something bothers you, ignore it. If someone is being "stupid", ignore them. You're just giving them more attention and it'll probably cause them to act out more.


----------



## Minish

Altmer said:


> lol the forum is a hellhole
> 
> it's
> a
> fucking
> internet
> forum
> who
> fucking
> cares
> its
> not
> like
> some
> posts
> on
> the
> internet
> are
> the
> end
> of
> the
> fucking
> world
> 
> jesus fucking christ


@_@
Because when people use forums, they aren't real people anymore.

And I was totally being 100% when I said hellhole - obviously I believe it's the end of the world. _Obviously_.



> respect has to be earned. i am cautious towards anyone and will reward good posting with nice manners. i reward idiocy with anger and sarcasm. that's how it is. I don't need to spend my time arguing with idiots when they don't listen. You saw that desolater66 thread: post good advice, he throws it in your face anyway. It doesn't matter. You can be nice, some people just don't take that. You have to realise this is a fucking internet forum and I am here for my entertainment too and being all fucking prepubescent jerks fapping to 4chan meme and unfunny things ruins MY fun. Why should your circlejerk take precedence over mine?
> 
> You could, uh, you know, post good funny things instead?


Why should your definition of good and funny take precedence over mine?
At least mine doesn't hurt anybody~


----------



## Altmer

Arylett Dawnsborough said:


> This is a forum, made to entertain people. And if people feel it's a hellhole, then there is a serious problem. And if we're going by your logic, then who "fucking" cares if some people think some things are crap? They still shouldn't ruin everyone's fun. You're the ones who appear to be making a big deal of this, it's /just/ a Pokémon forum. Why make a big deal because some people made a few mistakes? Or if they say "stupid" things?


well uh because they do it constantly, consistently and aren't bent on improving themselves but would rather wallow in their ignorance



> And I'll repeat myself. If something bothers you, ignore it. If someone is being "stupid", ignore them. You're just giving them more attention and it'll probably cause them to act out more.


I actually rarely post in Insanity for that reason. It's clogged with non-funny threads. 

And no, not in a fucken debating thread. The whole point of those threads is that you know what you're talking about/want to learn. It is the worst thing ever to try and read a DH post with no use of proper grammar/spelling, no use of their fucking brain (aka spouting random bullshit).



> Why should your definition of good and funny take precedence over mine?
> At least mine doesn't hurt anybody~


Neither does mine. But mine is better quality and hasn't been done to death, you know. I snark at people that have it coming, you know. I snarked at Desolater66 because Desolater66 can't fucking post for shit. I would snark in the DH at people that cant post there but I have no access to it so meh. I snark in the CC at people that make whine threads that have zero content and just serve to inflate their overly sensitive egos.

You get it now? I really don't give one fucken inch of crap about all your "LETS HAVE A FUCKING CIRCLEJERK WITH OLD FADS"  shit. Keep it in Insanity I don't even post there 99% of the time. But the forums I do post in (Misc, Entertainment, CC, DH if I have access, forum discussion, fiction) all demand a certain standard of I know what I'm talking about and can string three coherent sentences together. Legibly. With proper grammar. And I don't think that when people don't even get that far or forget they have fucking brains or whatever, that it's unfair to call them out on that. It's that fucking simple. If you're gonna make a thread, make it worth discussing and don't fucken waste people's time with shit arguments. Really, you guys are so boring that way. BLA BLA BLA EVERYTHING MUST BE NICE AND FUCKEN RAINBOWS. I got out of the la la period of my life. Grow some thick skins, people. Not everything is to be taken so fucking seriously. You guys all act like snark and wittiness and humour is something bad. No, it's not. And this thread is actually fun because I can see people are getting all riled up when someone, GOD FORBID, makes fun of something that is inherently stupid. God forbid stand-up comedy. What are you gonna do the next time you see a movie of Dennis Leary? Switch it off because it's possibly offensive. Come on.

Seriously. Make things worth discussing. Make things worth reading. There's too much time spent on these forums bothering through unnecessary crap and people not getting it and thinking they're right and have a monopoly on their opinions being right. Well having an opinion isn't immunity to being told you're wrong.


----------



## Bombsii

this is just turning into a enormous argument now.


----------



## Arylett Charnoa

Altmer said:


> well uh because they do it constantly, consistently and aren't bent on improving themselves but would rather wallow in their ignorance
> 
> 
> 
> I actually rarely post in Insanity for that reason. It's clogged with non-funny threads.
> 
> And no, not in a fucken debating thread. The whole point of those threads is that you know what you're talking about/want to learn. It is the worst thing ever to try and read a DH post with no use of proper grammar/spelling, no use of their fucking brain (aka spouting random bullshit).
> 
> 
> 
> Neither does mine. But mine is better quality and hasn't been done to death, you know. I snark at people that have it coming, you know. I snarked at Desolater66 because Desolater66 can't fucking post for shit. I would snark in the DH at people that cant post there but I have no access to it so meh. I snark in the CC at people that make whine threads that have zero content and just serve to inflate their overly sensitive egos.
> 
> You get it now? I really don't give one fucken inch of crap about all your "LETS HAVE A FUCKING CIRCLEJERK WITH OLD FADS"  shit. Keep it in Insanity I don't even post there 99% of the time. But the forums I do post in (Misc, Entertainment, CC, DH if I have access, forum discussion, fiction) all demand a certain standard of I know what I'm talking about and can string three coherent sentences together. Legibly. With proper grammar. And I don't think that when people don't even get that far or forget they have fucking brains or whatever, that it's unfair to call them out on that. It's that fucking simple. If you're gonna make a thread, make it worth discussing and don't fucken waste people's time with shit arguments. Really, you guys are so boring that way. BLA BLA BLA EVERYTHING MUST BE NICE AND FUCKEN RAINBOWS. I got out of the la la period of my life. Grow some thick skins, people. Not everything is to be taken so fucking seriously. You guys all act like snark and wittiness and humour is something bad. No, it's not. And this thread is actually fun because I can see people are getting all riled up when someone, GOD FORBID, makes fun of something that is inherently stupid. God forbid stand-up comedy. What are you gonna do the next time you see a movie of Dennis Leary? Switch it off because it's possibly offensive. Come on.
> 
> Seriously. Make things worth discussing. Make things worth reading. There's too much time spent on these forums bothering through unnecessary crap and people not getting it and thinking they're right and have a monopoly on their opinions being right. Well having an opinion isn't immunity to being told you're wrong.


Point A: Ignore them. Simple. If people don't want to learn, don't keep /snarking/ at them. It fixes nothing, as I have said time and time again. The reason people do it consistantly is because either A, nobody bothers to educate them or B, they're snarked at and thereby detered from not being "ignorant". Just ignore them.

Point B: Regardless of whether it's a debate, you /still/ don't snark. In debates, both sides are /supposed/ to be civil to one another. If the other side is not civil to you, you ignore them. Simple. And if they don't stop, then I understand if you get mad. But what I'm saying, so many times now, is that people need a chance. A chance to right themselves. And not everyone can write so-called Quality Long Essay Posts. Some people just want to /try/ to debate, for fun, _casually_. They try their best to debate, because they might like it. Because the whole point of this place is entertainment. This isn't the Professional Debators Forum, it's a Pokémon Forum. Or at least address your point back civily. Because snarking at them is not going to convince them you're right. 

Point C: The entire point of the Coughing Cupboard is to let off steam. When people let off steam, they may not be thinking correctly again like I've said. It is there so that they can do this, freely. And so that people can offer advice and attempt to help them. The Coughing Cupboard isn't for just /you/, it's for everyone. It's not a place for people to post so-called "Intelligent Posts". It's a place for expressing _emotions_. And _emotions_ are not very logical, emotions can be unreasonable. Snarking at people does no one any good, it only makes them stroke their so-called "oversensitive ego" even more, it only creates self-pity. "These people were mean to me, I'm the victim, they are wrong and  I am right."

Point D: And what have I been saying this whole time? Correct them. Neutrally. Or nicely. Tell them, quite simply, that you cannot read their posts and that they're illegible. If they don't listen, ignore them. But I'm going to be honest, I find the _cool lowercase way_ of writing posts to be quite illegible. I find it just as bad as someone who doesn't do it intentionally. This is hypocrasy. Why make people type with proper grammar/spelling/etc if you don't even do it yourself? And some people can't just grow some "thick skins." Some people don't have "thick skins." Some people have _feelings_. You can't expect everyone to "grow a thick skin." It doesn't work like that. The reason people are getting riled up in the first place is because they're tired of being afraid of being insulted. And like I said, not everyone can take these things well. People are here to have fun, when people are insulted, they usually don't find it funny. Not many people can laugh that off. Only the people doing the insulting find it funny. Who decides what's "inherantly stupid"? And this is very different from stand-up comedy. This is a place for everyone to enjoy themselves, without the expense of others. You can call your friends "stupid", if it's just in a silly joking manner. But you can't call some stranger, who you don't even _know_ stupid.

Point E: Opinions are neither inherantly right or wrong, because they're not fact. If you disagree with someone, you can go ahead and tell them. But /snarking/ at them is not the way. Do it some civility, at least.


----------



## Ruby

If everybody made their serious posts throughout the forum, rather than just in this thread and the Author Lounge, the problem would be solved.


----------



## nastypass

I PROPOSE another guideline be added to the rules:  Use some common sense before you post.  Think about what you're saying and about what other people will think about it.  If it's bad quality, improve it, if it comes off as insulting, reword it to be less so or just don't post it.


----------



## Altmer

Arylett Dawnsborough said:


> Point A: Ignore them. Simple. If people don't want to learn, don't keep /snarking/ at them. It fixes nothing, as I have said time and time again. The reason people do it consistantly is because either A, nobody bothers to educate them or B, they're snarked at and thereby detered from not being "ignorant". Just ignore them.


it fixes stupid people posting. 

and uh I ignore most crap unless it's so blatantly *headdesk* worthy



> Point B: Regardless of whether it's a debate, you /still/ don't snark. In debates, both sides are /supposed/ to be civil to one another. If the other side is not civil to you, you ignore them. Simple. And if they don't stop, then I understand if you get mad. But what I'm saying, so many times now, is that people need a chance. A chance to right themselves. And not everyone can write so-called Quality Long Essay Posts. Some people just want to /try/ to debate, for fun, _casually_. They try their best to debate, because they might like it. Because the whole point of this place is entertainment. This isn't the Professional Debators Forum, it's a Pokémon Forum. Or at least address your point back civily. Because snarking at them is not going to convince them you're right.


where did I say post essays? post properly. making coherent posts that make sense isn`t beyond anyone. I`m civil if you obey basic posting rules. it`s not too much to ask to make people use their brain.  I don't snark to convince people I'm right. I'm snarking because THEY POST UTTER FUCKING BULLSHIT. Get it? If someone posts in a thread and blatantly ignores what's clearly well-thought out argumentation, fuck me sideways with a stick if nice reasonable civil behaviour is going to help. There's this one saying, y'know.

"Don't argue with idiots, they drag you down to their level then beat you with experience."



> Point C: The entire point of the Coughing Cupboard is to let off steam. When people let off steam, they may not be thinking correctly again like I've said. It is there so that they can do this, freely. And so that people can offer advice and attempt to help them. The Coughing Cupboard isn't for just /you/, it's for everyone. It's not a place for people to post so-called "Intelligent Posts". It's a place for expressing _emotions_. And _emotions_ are not very logical, emotions can be unreasonable. Snarking at people does no one any good, it only makes them stroke their so-called "oversensitive ego" even more, it only creates self-pity. "These people were mean to me, I'm the victim, they are wrong and  I am right."


So murder is allowed there to vent emotions? 

I have emotions and I can make coherent cc threads. Having emotions does not equal a right to post crap. Forum rules apply everywhere. People should post properly and use their brains everywhere. That goes for the fucking CC as much as for insanity. Being a hurt special snowflake doesn't grant you immunity to basic posting requirements.

And it also doesn't give you the right to be a fucktard. I'm sorry, your "we're all pathetic we need some TLC" doesn't fucking fly.



> Point D: And what have I been saying this whole time? Correct them. Neutrally. Or nicely. Tell them, quite simply, that you cannot read their posts and that they're illegible. If they don't listen, ignore them. But I'm going to be honest, I find the _cool lowercase way_ of writing posts to be quite illegible. I find it just as bad as someone who doesn't do it intentionally. This is hypocrasy. Why make people type with proper grammar/spelling/etc if you don't even do it yourself? And some people can't just grow some "thick skins." Some people don't have "thick skins." Some people have _feelings_. You can't expect everyone to "grow a thick skin." It doesn't work like that. The reason people are getting riled up in the first place is because they're tired of being afraid of being insulted. And like I said, not everyone can take these things well. People are here to have fun, when people are insulted, they usually don't find it funny. Not many people can laugh that off. Only the people doing the insulting find it funny. Who decides what's "inherantly stupid"? And this is very different from stand-up comedy. This is a place for everyone to enjoy themselves, without the expense of others. You can call your friends "stupid", if it's just in a silly joking manner. But you can't call some stranger, who you don't even _know_ stupid.


you`re stupid. WOW LOOK I JUST CALLED YOU STUPID. Yes I can.   See? Look? I did it. Oh my god. A revelation for you this must be. 

Also it`s spelled "hypocrisy". Don't call me out on bad spelling when your post is fucking full of them; especially not when you know mine contains zero spelling mistakes and a few "I can't be bothered to capitalise things because it's really a redundant practice" capitalisation errors. Seriously.

And I have feelings too. so? I can grow a thick skin. We don`t have to act like special snowflakes. It's not like the world is fucking rainbows and leprechauns and fairies. Get fucking over yourself.



> Point E: Opinions are neither inherantly right or wrong, because they're not fact. If you disagree with someone, you can go ahead and tell them. But /snarking/ at them is not the way. Do it some civility, at least.


"inherently."

and yes they can, opinions can suck. bad backup logic means a bad opinion. Your opinion can be that two and two equals five in a decimal system, but you'd still be wrong. Same if you form an argument based on flawed logic. It's still fucking wrong logic. Don't you get it? Not everything is fucking subjective. You can't just spout "THIS IS MY OPINION IT IS AN OPINION THEREFORE I AM ALLOWED TO SAY THIS". It doesn't work like that.

typed this on a wii before you nag at capitalisation.

edited since I'm back on a pc now.


----------



## Arylett Charnoa

Altmer said:


> it fixes stupid people posting.
> 
> and uh I ignore most crap unless it's so blatantly *headdesk* worthy
> 
> 
> 
> where did I say post essays? post properly. making coherent posts that make sense isn`t beyond anyone. I`m civil if you obey basic posting rules. it`s not too much to ask to make people use their brain.  I don't snark to convince people I'm right. I'm snarking because THEY POST UTTER FUCKING BULLSHIT. Get it? If someone posts in a thread and blatantly ignores what's clearly well-thought out argumentation, fuck me sideways with a stick if nice reasonable civil behaviour is going to help. There's this one saying, y'know.
> 
> "Don't argue with idiots, they drag you down to their level then beat you with experience."
> 
> 
> 
> So murder is allowed there to vent emotions?
> 
> I have emotions and I can make coherent cc threads. Having emotions does not equal a right to post crap. Forum rules apply everywhere. People should post properly and use their brains everywhere. That goes for the fucking CC as much as for insanity. Being a hurt special snowflake doesn't grant you immunity to basic posting requirements.
> 
> And it also doesn't give you the right to be a fucktard. I'm sorry, your "we're all pathetic we need some TLC" doesn't fucking fly.
> 
> 
> 
> you`re stupid. WOW LOOK I JUST CALLED YOU STUPID. Yes I can.   See? Look? I did it. Oh my god. A revelation for you this must be.
> 
> Also it`s spelled "hypocrisy". Don't call me out on bad spelling when your post is fucking full of them; especially not when you know mine contains zero spelling mistakes and a few "I can't be bothered to capitalise things because it's really a redundant practice" capitalisation errors. Seriously.
> 
> And I have feelings too. so? I can grow a thick skin. We don`t have to act like special snowflakes. It's not like the world is fucking rainbows and leprechauns and fairies. Get fucking over yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> "inherently."
> 
> and yes they can, opinions can suck. bad backup logic means a bad opinion. Your opinion can be that two and two equals five in a decimal system, but you'd still be wrong. Same if you form an argument based on flawed logic. It's still fucking wrong logic. Don't you get it? Not everything is fucking subjective. You can't just spout "THIS IS MY OPINION IT IS AN OPINION THEREFORE I AM ALLOWED TO SAY THIS". It doesn't work like that.
> 
> typed this on a wii before you nag at capitalisation.
> 
> edited since I'm back on a pc now.


Stupid people is a matter of opinion. Just because /you/ think someone is stupid, doesn't mean other people agree. Most of all, it hurts people's feelings. And amounts to absolutely nothing. Again and again, I must tell you, this is a place for entertainment. Nobody's here to be told they're stupid. They're here to have fun. And if they're not spelling correctly, let them know. Don't be mean about it. If they don't listen, _ignore_ them. I have to say this again. And don't tell me, oh the stupid people don't deserve to be here, chase them off with snark. That's nonsense. Anyone who likes Pokémon and wants to have fun deserves to be here. Because it's a place of _entertainment_.

And I made some spelling mistakes, irrelevant. Most of my post was understandable, yes? You still got what I was saying, it was coherant. You understood my meaning. Isn't that the point? That you understand what people are trying to say? Nitpickery. If someone isn't being coherant, ask them to. If they won't change, well that's it. If you can't read their post, then don't bother, just _ignore_ them. 

Forum rules do apply everywhere. Did I ever say that you're allowed to break the rules in the Coughing Cupboard? No. Just because people act in a manner that annoys you, doesn't matter. Most posts there aren't hurting anyone and if they do, I have to say this so many times now, ignore them or infract them, but don't snark. Some people when they post there are too upset, too emotional to make much sense. They go there seeking advice. All I am saying is not to snark, not that forum rules don't apply. 

Just because /you/ act a certain way doesn't mean that everyone else does. Or can. Nobody's the same. People are going to take things differently. Some people just don't have thick skin. 

Calling me stupid isn't going to make your point. Insulting me isn't going to make your point. In fact, you're having the opposite effect. More and more I begin to believe firmly in my opinion. See? What I say works in practice. And if you want to chase me off with your insults, just like all the other _idiots_, it's not going to work. 

Opinions sucking is your opinion. And yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Despite if it's not backed up with enough evidence. And then you can disagree with them and prove them wrong. But you don't have to snark. That is what I'm trying to say.


----------



## Altmer

Arylett Dawnsborough said:


> Stupid people is a matter of opinion. Just because /you/ think someone is stupid, doesn't mean other people agree. Most of all, it hurts people's feelings. And amounts to absolutely nothing. Again and again, I must tell you, this is a place for entertainment. Nobody's here to be told they're stupid. They're here to have fun. And if they're not spelling correctly, let them know. Don't be mean about it. If they don't listen, _ignore_ them. I have to say this again. And don't tell me, oh the stupid people don't deserve to be here, chase them off with snark. That's nonsense. Anyone who likes Pokémon and wants to have fun deserves to be here. Because it's a place of _entertainment_.


why have bad entertainment when you can have good entertainment. Why live in Elven La-La-Land with the Teletubbies when we can have, uh, proper entertainment and discussion.



> And I made some spelling mistakes, irrelevant. Most of my post was understandable, yes? You still got what I was saying, it was coherant. You understood my meaning. Isn't that the point? That you understand what people are trying to say? Nitpickery. If someone isn't being coherant, ask them to. If they won't change, well that's it. If you can't read their post, then don't bother, just _ignore_ them.


If you don't like my snark, ignore me! *facepalm*



> Forum rules do apply everywhere. Did I ever say that you're allowed to break the rules in the Coughing Cupboard? No. Just because people act in a manner that annoys you, doesn't matter. Most posts there aren't hurting anyone and if they do, I have to say this so many times now, ignore them or infract them, but don't snark. Some people when they post there are too upset, too emotional to make much sense. They go there seeking advice. All I am saying is not to snark, not that forum rules don't apply.


being emotional doesn't excuse you from making coherent posts. and making coherent posts is a forum rule. and if someone is an idiot in the cc, I will snark. being emotional isn't an excuse to be an idiot.



> Just because /you/ act a certain way doesn't mean that everyone else does. Or can. Nobody's the same. People are going to take things differently. Some people just don't have thick skin.


yeah well some people have tendencies to murder but uh. some people just can't control their alcoholism.



> Calling me stupid isn't going to make your point. Insulting me isn't going to make your point. In fact, you're having the opposite effect. More and more I begin to believe firmly in my opinion. See? What I say works in practice. And if you want to chase me off with your insults, just like all the other _idiots_, it's not going to work.


oh look ostriches are coming back oh man this is priceless oh man. really you didn't get a single thing of what I said. it's hilarious. you are such a nugget of stupidity I think I could award you a trophy.

people are gonna take things differently. yeah. uh. I'm aware I'm not you. I'm also aware I tend to use my brain... it's a cool thing to do. Maybe if you and the rest of the zits on the forum whining about people not being nice stood up and took notice... use your brain. yeah. that would be a good idea. I think I'll repeat it because you don't seem to get it. Use your brain. "Taking things differently" (what a completely vague and obtuse thing to say), man. Oh man. Do you want me to fix on those elf ears for you and join you in this oh-so-magical dance of love in The Enchanted Forest Of Amorous Elves?

Just let me wait a bit I have to get my staff.



> Opinions sucking is your opinion. And yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Despite if it's not backed up with enough evidence. And then you can disagree with them and prove them wrong. But you don't have to snark. That is what I'm trying to say.


and since when do you decide when I get to snark or not? look I just snarked. See? I snark. Oh my god. Snark. I like the word "snark." I'll use it again now. Snark. Oh man. Snark. I really am laughing my ass of here. Snark.

And no you should stop posting if you can't back up an opinion. It is better to hold your tongue and be stupid, than to prove it by speaking.


----------



## Arylett Charnoa

Altmer said:


> why have bad entertainment when you can have good entertainment. Why live in Elven La-La-Land with the Teletubbies when we can have, uh, proper entertainment and discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> If you don't like my snark, ignore me! *facepalm*
> 
> 
> 
> being emotional doesn't excuse you from making coherent posts. and making coherent posts is a forum rule. and if someone is an idiot in the cc, I will snark. being emotional isn't an excuse to be an idiot.
> 
> 
> 
> yeah well some people have tendencies to murder but uh. some people just can't control their alcoholism.
> 
> 
> 
> oh look ostriches are coming back oh man this is priceless oh man. really you didn't get a single thing of what I said. it's hilarious. you are such a nugget of stupidity I think I could award you a trophy.
> 
> people are gonna take things differently. yeah. uh. I'm aware I'm not you. I'm also aware I tend to use my brain... it's a cool thing to do. Maybe if you and the rest of the zits on the forum whining about people not being nice stood up and took notice... use your brain. yeah. that would be a good idea. I think I'll repeat it because you don't seem to get it. Use your brain. "Taking things differently" (what a completely vague and obtuse thing to say), man. Oh man. Do you want me to fix on those elf ears for you and join you in this oh-so-magical dance of love in The Enchanted Forest Of Amorous Elves?
> 
> Just let me wait a bit I have to get my staff.
> 
> 
> 
> and since when do you decide when I get to snark or not? look I just snarked. See? I snark. Oh my god. Snark. I like the word "snark." I'll use it again now. Snark. Oh man. Snark. I really am laughing my ass of here. Snark.
> 
> And no you should stop posting if you can't back up an opinion. It is better to hold your tongue and be stupid, than to prove it by speaking.


No. If I don't like your snark and other people are offended by your snark, usually you are infracted. Because that's flaming. And the people who are being "stupid" are flaming as well and they are infracted. End of story. They don't need to be insulted.

I never said it did, did I? I'm talking about _insulting_ people, not excusing them from the rules in the Coughing Cupboard. Like I said, just let them be punished. No need to add insult to injury. Insulting is unnecessary and against the forum rules itself.

Not everyone wants to or can handle being insulted, that's what I'm saying. All I am saying is to not insult people. But clearly, your entire post was dedicated to insulting me and belittling my intelligence, because my _stupid_ brain can't get your point. It's like I said before, you lack patience. I don't think you're ever going to change. But I'm not going to standby and let myself be insulted.


----------



## Altmer

Arylett Dawnsborough said:


> No. If I don't like your snark and other people are offended by your snark, usually you are infracted. Because that's flaming. And the people who are being "stupid" are flaming as well and they are infracted. End of story. They don't need to be insulted.


nah calling people out on their idiocy and insulting them are two different things



> I never said it did, did I? I'm talking about _insulting_ people, not excusing them from the rules in the Coughing Cupboard. Like I said, just let them be punished. No need to add insult to injury. Insulting is unnecessary and against the forum rules itself.


i really uh, don't give a shit about hurting people's feelings when they don't want to learn. i don't care about insulting desolater. it really means nothing to me. i care about insulting people I respect but seriously if you're a random and you post shat I'll tell you 'you post shat'. That's blunt, but it's not flaming.

hmmm I am having a deja vu



> Not everyone wants to or can handle being insulted, that's what I'm saying. All I am saying is to not insult people. But clearly, your entire post was dedicated to insulting me and belittling my intelligence, because my _stupid_ brain can't get your point. It's like I said before, you lack patience. I don't think you're ever going to change. But I'm not going to standby and let myself be insulted.


calling you an elf is so very insulting

telling you to use your brain is so very insulting

saying snark over and over is very insulting

do they have skin type minus one where you live.

oh my god i have just been humorously attacked I feel insulted and have been flamed oh jeez I'm sorry do I have to pay penance with a hundred apologies

*headdesk*

you obviously really take this forum waaaaaaay too seriously


----------



## Arylett Charnoa

Altmer said:


> nah calling people out on their idiocy and insulting them are two different things
> 
> 
> 
> i really uh, don't give a shit about hurting people's feelings when they don't want to learn. i don't care about insulting desolater. it really means nothing to me. i care about insulting people I respect but seriously if you're a random and you post shat I'll tell you 'you post shat'. That's blunt, but it's not flaming.
> 
> hmmm I am having a deja vu
> 
> 
> 
> calling you an elf is so very insulting
> 
> telling you to use your brain is so very insulting
> 
> saying snark over and over is very insulting
> 
> do they have skin type minus one where you live.
> 
> oh my god i have just been humorously attacked I feel insulted and have been flamed oh jeez I'm sorry do I have to pay penance with a hundred apologies
> 
> *headdesk*
> 
> you obviously really take this forum waaaaaaay too seriously


And you don't take this place too seriously? Obviously you take it seriously if people being "idiots" here is so important to you. Otherwise, you just wouldn't care.

People are here for fun, regardless of whether you don't care about hurting their feelings. If you don't care about insulting, then why do it in the first place? People do things because they care about them. And yes, it is flaming, telling people they post "shat". Let them be infracted, if it is so bad. Again, there is no need, saying that is probably spam anyway, if not flaming. And it still breaks the rules. 

It wasn't the words themselves, it was the /way/ you said them. It was clearly in a conscending manner. If I had said those things, I don't think I would've gotten away with it. It's all about _tone_, not words. But you can say those things and get away with them, because you're a _cool person_. And that's the whole reason I spoke up, because you guys get away with most things.


----------



## Altmer

all I have to say is "LOL I'M YOUR MOM STOP BEING A BAD BOY" and I'm like "I'M OUTTA THE HOUSE ANYWAY"

that's how I feel

just lol at your attempt to patronise really you've given me my best night all week please give me some more this is really becoming more brilliant by the minute

and just to clarify: i think people should not post shit and calling them out on posting shit isn't spam. i like to think a bit of wit just makes it that much more entertaining. you really have no sense of humour and think that everyone should be nice people wearing pink skirts all being the same kind of nice people. 

your life is boring and you need to get a better one. yeah. I'm outspoken. I'm convinced. If people are shit, I tell them they're shit. I have no qualms doing that. You can infract my ass for being honest. I really don't care one fucken inch. Not one. I don't honestly give a shit. I get banned, well I've been banned before, wooptiedoo. You people need to lighten the fuck up and stop acting like you've been stung by a bee everytime someone says something potentially offensive.


----------



## Scizor

In other news, TCoD is still as full of whiny emos, bad trolls and elitists dicks as when I left.

gg forums, gg indeed


----------



## Arylett Charnoa

I wasn't trying to patronize you. I was trying to make my point. In fact, you're the one who's patronizing me. 

If you want more, then I'll gladly give it to you.

Just to clarify: No, I do not have no sense of humor. Just because you don't laugh at others' people's expenses, doesn't mean you lack a sense of humor. It _is_ flaming and it _is_ spam. What's "shit" is your opinion, not everyone thinks it's "shit". Again, I must say my point. This is a forum, for entertainment purposes. And when you infringe upon that, you're just ruining everyone's fun.

The reason people act like that is because they don't like to be insulted. They are here for fun. People don't come here expecting for you to tell them that their posts are a waste of time and they are just stupid.


----------



## Scizor

But they really are though, sorry :((((

I praise Altmer's outspoken honesty.


----------



## Altmer

Arylett Dawnsborough said:


> I wasn't trying to patronize you. I was trying to make my point. In fact, you're the one who's patronizing me.
> 
> If you want more, then I'll gladly give it to you.


aww how sweet feeling victimised already



> Just to clarify: No, I do not have no sense of humor. Just because you don't laugh at others' people's expenses, doesn't mean you lack a sense of humor. It _is_ flaming and it _is_ spam. What's "shit" is your opinion, not everyone thinks it's "shit". Again, I must say my point. This is a forum, for entertainment purposes. And when you infringe upon that, you're just ruining everyone's fun.


go and have your collective circle jerks in insanity I don't care just don't think you can get away with posting shat in proper threads

i really do love the ostrich impersonation though. i wonder did you stamp your feet in real life too. i'd love to see a video. YES IT IS FLAMING I AM INSULTED PLEASE GET LOST AND BANNED AND DAMNED AND GO TO HELL

it's really threatening me oh I'm so scared




> The reason people act like that is because they don't like to be insulted. They are here for fun. People don't come here expecting for you to tell them that their posts are a waste of time and they are just stupid.


no shit sherlock people dislike being insulted

who would have thunk it

if people don't want me to tell them their posts are a waste of time then they should make sure their posts aren't a waste of time in the first place? isn't that even remotely obvious?

telling people they can't post for shit isn't flaming no matter how much you fucking rant and whine about IT RUINS EVERYONE'S FUN

posting shit ruins my and everyone else's fun even more you know that right


----------



## Butterfree

What's this? A worthwhile thread? No waaay!

Okay, uh. I am incidentally also _really freaking sick_ of people being dicks. My main dilemma is that the people who are dicks tend to be nice, intelligent people with a sense of humour whom I actually _like_ when they're not being dicks and whom I don't really want to reprimand, particularly when I know the Dick Clique generally considers itself cooler than me and will not hesitate to gang up on me with the typical comments about how dumb I am and I will essentially achieve nothing but get them up against me and oh woe is me because I hate getting people I like and respect up against me.

I can see Eevee's point and what the people who agree with him are getting at; it just does not convince me there is any need for snark. Or in other words, if you think writing a thought-out, helpful post in a thread won't be worth your time (and honestly, I don't think that's a lot of the time), I cannot get myself to sympathize with the sentiment that it would be a good idea to make a post to mock the person instead. It may entertain a select few people, but overall, it is bad for the general atmosphere of the forum, promotes more of that class distinction between the cool dick clique and the nice masses (which is a large part of the whole culture problem, because the latter are less likely to respect the former when they do make thought-out posts), and can hurt people's feelings. If you want to snark about some person's post because it will entertain the Dick Clique, you can do that in private with the people it will entertain - the #tcod IRC channel is mostly a Dick Clique get-together, after all, you get your laughs with the others, somebody can make a thought-out post against the original if they feel the need to, and everybody goes home happy. To post the mocking publically achieves nothing I could consider in any way positive for anyone.

And Altmer, just _go away_. I liked you way back when, but the general sentiment that it is cool to have no basic respect for other human beings who don't meet your arbitrary standards honestly sickens me. If you do not wish to follow _the rules of this forum_, you forfeit your right to be here.


----------



## Altmer

> And Altmer, just go away. I liked you way back when, but the general sentiment that it is cool to have no basic respect for other human beings who don't meet your arbitrary standards honestly sickens me. If you do not wish to follow the rules of this forum, you forfeit your right to be here.


silly me who always thought that posting properly was a rule

i might be the only one though!


----------



## Vladimir Putin's LJ

Can someone post a list with all the members of Th'Dick Clique tia


----------



## Zora of Termina

...I always kinda figured it was Altmer, g8tr, sometimes Furret or Verne, and Eevee.

I think I'm forgetting a few though.


----------



## Tailsy

Altmer is banned so he doesn't qualify.


----------



## nastypass

verne is by no means in the dick clique

/no means/

also i have one thing to say that is on-topic and i didn't even say it:  <Zhorken> fuck you, "it's okay to be dumb" mentality


----------



## Vladimir Putin's LJ

Tailsy said:


> Altmer is banned so he doesn't qualify.


Noooo I like Altmer ):


----------



## nastypass

well altmer doesn't like some other people and won't shut up about it :'[


----------



## King Clam

but altmer was way better than most of the forum :(

goodnight sweet prince


----------



## Vladimir Putin's LJ

*~and may a flock of angels watch over thee~*


----------



## Negrek

Wow, really sorry for kind of starting this and then vanishing while it got all crazy. I wasn't really equipped to wade into a big internet argument yesterday.

Anyway, because I see that quite a few people referenced Eevee's post, but not many actually addressed it, I guess I'll get to that.



> The problem that arises is that most people do not care. Many people don't even recognize the voice of experience, let alone consider listening to it. So post after well-thought-out post falls on deaf ears, and a lot of time is wasted. Why bother, then? I gain more respect and attention by just yelling at people. Maybe they don't listen to me, but negative attention is still better than being dismissed as irrelevant. It's not just here, either; I've come to regret taking the time to write very good replies all over the blogotubes.


Remember that people who are just beginning to post on this board do not know you. They don't recognize you as the voice of experience because it's not like you go around wearing a nametag that says, "Hi there, I know what I'm doing." Even if you did, how many would automatically believe it?

People are intimidated by people who know what they're doing, especially if they're already in an unfamiliar environment. If they're unfamiliar with the internet and the forum, they're more comfortable with people who post like they do and appear to be a member of their peer group and therefore more inclined to listen to such posters. However, that doesn't mean that you're wasting your time by trying to set them straight. It may simply be that you can't go this alone. If several people post in a reasonable manner and show the OP and the other bad posters that they are incorrect, then the OP either starts to catch on or proves him or herself stupid. In the latter case, I would say that you're welcome to give up on them. At the same time, I don't think that means you have every right to lambast them, because if they're immune to reason, they're probably immune to satire.

Ultimately, if you approach someone who doesn't know you and start heaping things like, 'Your web site sucks, my eyes bleed, learn HTML, etc." on them, why shouldn't they just regard you as another random flamer? How are they supposed to know you know what you're talking about, especially if you don't bother to expand upon what you're saying. It may be self-evident to you that lime green on an electric blue background does not an effective color scheme make, but for someone who's just learning to code things like "aesthetic appeal" are probably lost against a background of, "Ooh, look at all the cool colors I can make!" People who don't have a clue may think they're all that, yeah, but how do they know that you _are_?



> But there's no inclination to do otherwise. Nobody would listen to me besides the half-dozen or so who already trust that I don't say things I'm not sure about. I'm good enough at skirting being banned, and if I were, oh well; fewer things to get annoyed about.


From my experience, I'm inclined to think otherwise. It's true that some people do respond well to negative criticism--though usually they do so simply by emulating the person who criticized them and not actually realizing _what_ they were being criticized for. On the other hand, there are people who couldn't take criticism if you coated it eight layers deep in sugar. They are not yet ready to function as a productive member of internet society. However, I feel that infracting and banning them if necessary because they just don't get it is just as effective as chewing them out in public--and if you're going to be infracting them anyway, what does a little more humiliation do besides make you look like a jerk?

I've been writing fanfiction for about five years, and every couple of months somewhere there flares up a load of dramadrama about the difference between a flame and concrit. Someone reviews people to get revenge, goes on about how incompetent they are, and how they should break their keyboard and never write again, and how their characters are all Mary-Sues, and so on. And usually the reviewer is dead right in the technical aspects of the review. However, all I've ever seen this generate is a lot of whining, hurt authors who annoy the other authors and reviewers, plus a bunch of parrot reviewers who think, "Hey, it looks like that review really got attention! I'm going to go and do that to other people now!" And then the trend expands and you have a _lot_ of whining authors and general annoyance. But you can concrit something to within an inch of its life, point out all the errors you want in as blunt a fashion as you want. But as long as you keep your analysis objective, your tone no more harsh than simply cold, people learn. Sometimes they don't, and sometimes they go whining off and annoy people. But some people do learn, and if some parrot reviewer decides that the best way to get a reaction is to construct well-reasoned and neutral arguments, then doesn't the whole community benefit?



> Above all, though, there is zero social reason to try to help new members because the population as a whole does not think new members need helping. The owner isn't around so much any more, either, to give any sort of cultural guidance. There are more clueless pre-teens than not and they all encourage each other in some terrible prepubescent circlejerk. They don't want to make quality threads; they just want to be entertained and don't understand why old memes are a bad thing. They don't want to learn to use real tools; they want to pat each other on the back for their mediocre cookie-cutter results and don't understand why they should strive to do far better. They don't want a deep and interesting debate; they want any answer for the unexplained, just to soothe the mental itch, and don't understand why that shouldn't be good enough. Hell, a lot of the forums themselves don't lend themselves to many threads besides surveys.
> 
> And there's not really any group inclination to push them.


It's true that a lot of people don't fully understand what forums are meant to be about. They're new to the internet and posting on forums; I would bet that a fair portion of the members here, and certainly the demographic that get ragged on most about this, have been posting for less than a year. If not, they probably have never been on a board where a significant portion of the established members are well above their age group. So of course they're all, "Post pictures of your pets omg! What did you have for breakfast today?" Their idea of forums is to speak up and be heard, not to hear other people. I do agree with you here, but I don't agree that what you're doing is the best way to stop it?

And if there's no group inclination to push them to go deeper than that, then why not start doing so?

In any case, I don't think that the circlejerking is going on solely among the newer members. Many of the senior members seem far more interested in mocking the stupid than in actually trying to fix it, which doesn't do anything to improve forum conditions. They'd rather revel in their own wit and reputation, often making stupid-looking posts themselves, instead of doing anything about it. But seriously, how smart do you have to be to make fun of someone who so clearly has no clue what they're doing? That's not wit. It's just being a bully. If you want to raise the level of discourse on the boards, why do you act so juvenile about the problem? The way some members act, I think they would honestly _prefer_ that the stupid stay stupid so that they have some easy mock material. Which, besides being sickening, only makes them look worse when they go on to complain about the stupidity they themselves enjoy mocking. I wouldn't consider you to be one such person, but how much different is it to say, "Sure, I could lead by example, but it's so much easier just to sink to their level, or to the level of insults?" 

To clear up a couple of other major things that I see as having arisen: first, Altmer said something about not caring whether Insanity is clogged with tripe and forum games was a load of crap and so forth so long as the discussion boards are actually about discussion. I agree with this wholeheartedly. To the people who are saying "Don't stomp on our fun!": keep your fun where it belongs, please. I don't care if you want to 4chan away in Insanity, but that doesn't mean that typing incoherently in the debating hall and then getting called on it is a violation of your funtiems. If you do not want to make serious posts and engage issues about which you need to do your homework lest you look moronic, do not post in the Debate forum. Likewise, I will not post serious things and muck up your Insanity board. Now, if someone _does_ act stupid in Debate, I still don't think that they deserve to be publicly shredded for it. However, if people disagree with you, and vehemently, and if you get infracted for totally disregarding the rules of good debate, you have no right to complain.

This leads me to the fact that some people think that boards like Insanity are extraneous at best and a major blemish at the worst. Here I'm going to have to say the same thing as I did about the debating hall: can't stand the way people post there? Leave it alone. If it's not against the rules, you've got no right to go in there and try to reform them. The fact is that even highly intelligent people can enjoy stupid humor, or lolcat memes, or whatever other nonsense goes on in there. We don't have to be totally serious all the time. Just so long as we're serious when it counts.

Additionally, some people seem to think I'm advocating a policy along the lines of, "Be benevolent unto the newbie, for he/she is our precious little poster of the future." This is not true. Sometimes, you just need to smack some sense into somebody. I believe opal posted something along the lines of we should give people a chance, but if they don't actually improve their posting habits should then proceed to infract and ban them as necessary. There _are_ idiot newbies out there, but that doesn't mean that all newbies are. And even if they are idiots, they don't deserve getting treated as subhuman for it; you can punish them without being cruel.

However, people are equating stupidity with ignorance. They are completely different, and I am not in any way "advocating stupidity." I think that it is one of humanity's most major problems. Many newbies are extremely ignorant--ignorant of the way that the internet and the world works, how to express themselves clearly, and how they should behave. If they have never seriously posted on an internet forum before, they may not realize that chatspeak is a bad idea. If they have never encountered many people outside their peer group in their hometown, they probably find the idea that other people have differing opinions, may know more than them, or otherwise are very different from them strange and even frightening. They may respond poorly. That doesn't mean they're _stupid_. They're young and ignorant. Stupidity is having something clearly pointed out to you and then actively refusing to believe it. For example, firmly believing that the sky is green even when it is shown conclusively to be blue. Stupidity should be punished, though you don't need to be nasty about it. Ignorant is something that everyone here once was.

I don't think we should insult people who mess up on the forums for the same reason that I wouldn't stand up and yell, "ARE YOU FUCKING RETARDED?!" at someone who said something stupid in one of my classes. We all mess up sometimes, and usually we can be made to see what we were doing wrong. The people for whom that doesn't work aren't worth the effort of actually standing up.

And as for who I would consider to be a part of the "Dick Clique" or whatever, I don't really see any need to name names. You know who you are, honestly, although if you _really_ need it spelled out, if you've called a member or group of members retarded, a douchebag(s), stupid, or something similarly derogatory, directly or indirectly as in opening a post with a line such as, "Are you fucking retarded?", I would consider you a problem. The more frequently you do this, the bigger a problem I would consider you to be. I have enough respect for the people doing this that I don't see any reason why I should call them out specifically; if you don't agree with what I'm saying, or for some reason refuse to identify yourself as falling into that group even if you do, then ultimately you're not going to change. I don't think that people would be more inclined to change their behavior if I listed names, so why would I?

To an extent I'm less unhappy about newbies getting speared than I am that so many of the more intelligent people of this board are going the Greater Internet Fuckwad way.

I'm not inclined to go back and reread everything again to make this even longer, but feel free to yell at me if you think I missed something important. I feel like I forgot something important as it is.


----------



## Alexi

...Holy shit, that blew up epically.


----------



## #1 bro

What a _ridiculous_ thing to get banned over. :|


----------



## Retsu

From the tone of his posts, I doubt Altmer minds very much.


----------



## Alexi

*after reading last page*

...I agree with Zeta. WTF? Banning Altmer is just as bad a snarking him. >> Really...really. Just...Damn.


----------



## Negrek

Butterfree gave him a chance to calm down, but he plowed ahead anyway. That's why he got banned.

It seems sort of silly to me that he'd throw out his membership on a thread like this, but I don't see why it's wrong to ban him when he was told, "If you don't follow the rules, you're going to get banned." So not following the rules leading to his banning seems reasonable enough to me.


----------



## Alexi

Wait, is he perma-banned?


----------



## surskitty

Alexi said:


> Banning Altmer is just as bad a snarking him. >> Really...really. Just...Damn.


I have no idea how your logic works.  How exactly is going 'wait what?' and cracking likely-unfunny jokes the same as banning?  Especially given that Altmer was being an asshole?





Alexi said:


> Wait, is he perma-banned?


For a given value of 'perma'.


----------



## Negrek

No, he just maxed his infraction counter. The ban expires in October.

Edit: Beaten.


----------



## surskitty

Negrek, I'm pretty sure once someone's banned then it doesn't actually go away.  Infractions expire; bampersand lasts but nobody does IP bans since they're really inefficient and there's very little against waiting a month and making a new account.


----------



## Negrek

Ooh, wow. Sorry, didn't know that.


----------



## Alexi

> I have no idea how your logic works. How exactly is going 'wait what?' and cracking likely-unfunny jokes the same as banning? Especially given that Altmer was being an asshole?


I misunderstood the ban, I thought he was banned _just because _he was an asshole. Which is really as bad as being an asshole back, because it doesn't do much besides anger people. 



> No, he just maxed his infraction counter. The ban expires in October.


Oh, okay. Ouch.


----------



## surskitty

Still, I'm sure Altmer is _well aware_ of how amazingly difficult it is to rejoin and not get noticed after being banned.


DAMMIT ALEXI POSTNINJA RRR
No, it's a perma-ban.  Being an asshole is against the rules and he was hit for flaming.


----------



## Dewgong

Eevee said:


> Above all, though, there is zero social reason to try to help new members because the population as a whole does not think new members need helping.  The owner isn't around so much any more, either, to give any sort of cultural guidance.  There are more clueless pre-teens than not and they all encourage each other in some terrible prepubescent circlejerk.  They don't want to make quality threads; they just want to be entertained and don't understand why old memes are a bad thing.  They don't want to learn to use real tools; they want to pat each other on the back for their mediocre cookie-cutter results and don't understand why they should strive to do far better.  They don't want a deep and interesting debate; they want any answer for the unexplained, just to soothe the mental itch, and don't understand why that shouldn't be good enough.  Hell, a lot of the forums themselves don't lend themselves to many threads besides surveys.


Agreed.

I don't have much else to say, but this is what I have been thinking, though you always... explain it perfectly when I can't.


----------



## Ether's Bane

On a sidenote, does anyone here think G8tr should've been banned ages ago? I'm completely serious about this. Also, can we place bets on when Desolater gets banned?


----------



## Dewgong

No I like g8tr


----------



## Scizor

If people are banned for being assholes then this forum should have been devoid of good members ages ago, really.


----------



## Shadowstar

Psh I'm going to ignore the argument...

Sprite armies were being useless, everybody who was defending them. They were just showing off *other people's sprites* in a thread. Besides, after that came the redundent sprite contests which made it hard to even find a sprite shop, unfortunately. Now that the armies are locked and the contests are either locked or in the Artist's lounge(or both) it's much easier to navagate.

In short:Redundent contests are boring and Sprite armies are annoying;Make them in an album or something.


----------



## ultraviolet

Hm, well that was interesting. I like how it had nothing to do with sprites... :)


----------



## Retsu

Alabaster said:


> On a sidenote, does anyone here think G8tr should've been banned ages ago? I'm completely serious about this.


This isn't yours or mine to decide.


----------



## Seritinajii

Wow, it's over.

What is this going to spiral into now?


----------



## Dewgong

I don't know...

But I miss Altmer. I am slightly tearing up now that he's banned...


----------



## Retsu

Altmer probably doesn't care about this place, Dewgong.


----------



## Eevee

I suppose what I was ultimately trying to get at was that, while I like the forums, there isn't really much for me here, and I doubt I am alone in this.

This seems to have been lost in the rush to explain in great detail why being an asshole is a bad thing and why everyone _else_'s enjoyment is very very important.

Thanks.  :V  Not being a dick is an easy problem to solve; I am concerned with one that is more difficult.

Oh well.


----------



## King Clam

Ruby said:


> g8tr, you are a terrible bore nowadays.


Probably because I rarely post here anyways and when I do it's just because a bunch of people keep telling me that thread X simply cannot live without my well-educated and thought-out opinion. Did you know half of the time I've got that obnoxious little header that tells me I haven't posted in awhile and I just post to get rid of it?


Alabaster said:


> On a sidenote, does anyone here think G8tr should've been banned ages ago? I'm completely serious about this.


Yes please ban him. He shot my dog, banged my wife, and burned down my house all in one day. Start a thread with a poll asking if I should be banned, that used to work well back in the old days.

I read most of the thread and briefly scanned the tl;dr posts I felt were worth scanning. (See: What Eevee and Negrek have to say.) I don't have much to say even after reading the whole thing but oh well here goes. _It's time for your reckoning._

So first let me address one thing about that "it's avant-garde to type with no caps or puncuation" thing, it's merely a side effect of talking with a lot of people that don't use them. Monkey see, monkey do, monkey look just like you! It is not an attempt to be hip or "with it", as the homeslices say down in the crib, it's just faster. By default, I type properly because it's how I learned to type. typing like this however is slightly faster and speed is always nice when I don't really care about what is going on

You'll notice that I have a very hard time forfeiting my apostrophes and capital I. I just can't do it. :x

So, moving on to the big issue, being a snarky dick. I wasn't always, you know. There used to be a time when I would defend people against myself. What happened? I lost my faith. I wanted to give everyone a chance, I wanted to help them grow. They didn't. I wanted to be a great peacemaker, one that would be looked up to and praised widely. Anyone who remembers my behavior during the anonymous board areas will surely vindicate my claims. And what did my tireless work give me? Nothing. A brief sense of accomplishment, more fleeting than beating a game that I've already finished repeatedly. Back then, when I got an infraction, it was from raging at someone else for being such a jerkface. Even then, my rage was a beautiful collapse from normal logical thinking to absolutely insane. Facing unending combat, an eternal battle against the influx of the internet, I chose the coward's way out. The bliss of not caring, the ease of dropping rocks on people from an unassailable position. How delightful. In time, I grew bored of the board. Seeking seclusion, I quietly withdrew myself from the board. It's a lot easier than you lot make it out to be. Of course I still hung out in the IRC channel, I have friends and some of them are worth keeping. Occasionally I would voice my opinion on a linked thread, but the only forum I bothered keeping tabs on was the video games forum. I view it as mine, and it is the one place I still feel loyalty for.

In my boredom one day, I decided to peruse the the various other boards, a decision I have quickly come to regret. Upon stumbling onto insanity, and finding the bane of intelligent thought still existing, I took it upon myself to facilitate its destruction, or at the very least, pacification. But how best to achieve this? There were a few methods. A quick look at my infraction log revealed to me that I could afford to start a nice riot. I even informed surskitty so that she could have her policies concerning the spriting board put into action. So after my nice little thirty point infraction, I decided that I shouldn't go too much farther and just directly appealed to Butterfree with my plan for the insanity board, to which she agreed. I then asked her if she would continue acting her part in the thread so that we may have a good time pretending to hammer out the argreement there. She said she would, but she didn't. Hell, so far as I can tell, no effort has been made to make good on the plan I discussed.

As I see it, that thread begat this thread. As surskitty was much more skilled in having her policies put into action, hers very quickly gave birth to the inevitable thread of people complaining that the forum is not Freedom Land. Furret felt the need to be reminded of a system that he was once a part of, and this age-old topic of "people are mean" came up again. An unfortunate consequence was Altmer being banned, something I take at least partial blame for, in that my riot lead to this thread, which gave altmer sufficient fuel to show us his rage. Hell, I myself got 10 points off of this for making a post that was only related to the original focus of the thread, as opposed to what it had become. Despite making a completely valid point, of course. But I digress, it is only ten points, those heal relatively quickly. _You rise, you fall, you're down and you rise again, what don't kill ya makes ya more strong._

So please, excuse me when I no longer behave like the naive fool who once believed in the inherent good of all internet users. And please believe me when I tell you I tried to make things better. Where I shall go from here, I'm not entirely sure. In some ways, I continue to fight the good fight, if only behind the scenes. While I frequently call for the banning of people that are merely stupid, the only ones I have any follow through on are those that possess a malice towards the well being of the board. Ask anyone on the IRC channel, my internet detective skills are as sharp as ever. If it pleases you, know that I do not intend to become active in any sense of the word. In my current state, I am locked from the last bastion of intelligent discussion on this forum, and even that is poisoned by incredible lack of care for the quality of one's own post. I can still see the CC, of course. I rarely post there but I enjoy feeding from the suffering of others. My only active interest now is a collaboration with several other users to introduce a high-quality RP into the RP board to see how it fares in the quagmire of festering terrible RPs. _Unwelcome ones, your time has come!_

tl;dr: brief recount of recent events, explanation of my attitude, and an outlook of things to come.


----------



## Ruby

You're a boor as well.


----------



## King Clam

Yeah well I had to look that up with my MW search bar so THERE.


----------



## alonsyalonso

Great so we're gonna hunt down everyone now and get them banned too? Crap.


----------



## Ruby

Some snark convert who condescends in fake almost purple prose that he was such a dreadful idiot when he cared about others is somebody not worthwhile.


----------



## Gamma Ray

> What's this? A worthwhile thread? No waaay!


that is the issue of this forum encapsulated in one paragraph. good job on recognising it, now try to view everything dear Altmer said in that context. maybe you'll see his point



> Okay, uh. I am incidentally also really freaking sick of people being dicks. My main dilemma is that the people who are dicks tend to be nice, intelligent people with a sense of humour whom I actually like when they're not being dicks and whom I don't really want to reprimand, particularly when I know the Dick Clique generally considers itself cooler than me and will not hesitate to gang up on me with the typical comments about how dumb I am and I will essentially achieve nothing but get them up against me and oh woe is me because I hate getting people I like and respect up against me.


well maybe people wouldn't be dicks if you, you know, gave them a reason not to be. that is the whole issue. people are dicks if they get bored with stuff being below their level of thought. they are trying to raise standards. the same old stuff.... it just gets boring after a while.



> I can see Eevee's point and what the people who agree with him are getting at; it just does not convince me there is any need for snark. Or in other words, if you think writing a thought-out, helpful post in a thread won't be worth your time (and honestly, I don't think that's a lot of the time), I cannot get myself to sympathize with the sentiment that it would be a good idea to make a post to mock the person instead. It may entertain a select few people, but overall, it is bad for the general atmosphere of the forum, promotes more of that class distinction between the cool dick clique and the nice masses (which is a large part of the whole culture problem, because the latter are less likely to respect the former when they do make thought-out posts), and can hurt people's feelings. If you want to snark about some person's post because it will entertain the Dick Clique, you can do that in private with the people it will entertain - the #tcod IRC channel is mostly a Dick Clique get-together, after all, you get your laughs with the others, somebody can make a thought-out post against the original if they feel the need to, and everybody goes home happy. To post the mocking publically achieves nothing I could consider in any way positive for anyone.


PUBLIC CASTRATION IS A GOOD IDEA.

like eevee said, good posts fall on deaf ears. why would anyone waste their time posting constructive shit when people don't listen because it's tl;dr. people have the wrong attitude anyway. it is not WORTH IT for people to put time and effort in something when it's blatantly ignored. now that is more disrespectful than any curseword or vulgarity ever.



> And Altmer, just go away. I liked you way back when, but the general sentiment that it is cool to have no basic respect for other human beings who don't meet your arbitrary standards honestly sickens me. If you do not wish to follow the rules of this forum, you forfeit your right to be here.


to be honest with you I think he a) doesn't think about no respect for human beings in the way that you insinuated and b) he thinks that "his arbitrary standards" are an irrelevant concept. from what I gather from his posts except the last couple excessive bits taunting Arylett I think you're entirely missing the boat. his point is that people should uh, post things in proper places with proper thought instead of striving for mediocrity. he is completely bored of people's instant-gratification semi-funny attitudes and his tendency is to take that boredom and frustration out. it turns out that he prefers cynicism and wit over violent fist fights. he's being an ass because the forum would have it no other way. it isn't about shitting on people's fun. it is to introduce some form of quality control and posting threshold that actually makes sure the forums that require it are worth reading and don't suffer from clogging with surveys or shitty threads that promote little to no discussion at all. 

unfortunately, he is Altmer, and tends to say this with no regard for people's feelings because his words will always be the ones that cut through skin like knives. direct honesty and anger is preferable to soft sweet lies. we aren't living in bubbles, no matter how much people think that. there is no sugarcoating, not on the internet, not nowhere. the fact that you have to be a complete twat to get that point across just illustrates the fanbase of this forum. are you even surprised he doesn't take you seriously? if I were that guy, I'd have given up and stopped posting ages before he did. i think his patience finally ran out.



> I don't know...
> 
> But I miss Altmer. I am slightly tearing up now that he's banned...


find other methods of communication



> I suppose what I was ultimately trying to get at was that, while I like the forums, there isn't really much for me here, and I doubt I am alone in this.


this holds a lot of truth. this is probably one of the cleverest people on the forum. he's completely disinterestred in actually posting even though he likes the members of the community because most of it, quite frankly, isn't worth wasting words on. i think Altmer felt the same, only he has that tendency to completely fly off the handle.



> Still, I'm sure Altmer is well aware of how amazingly difficult it is to rejoin and not get noticed after being banned.


if he even cares. i think that clinching with the admin wouldn't be a particularly big incentive to come back, especially considering he is probably in touch with the members he cares about anyway or something. don't think that the few random youngins that looked up to the snark were actually... worth that much.

that's pretty much my $0.02

peace out
Gamma Ray


----------



## Retsu

Why are you hiding behind an anonymous account?


----------



## Gamma Ray

Retsu said:


> Why are you hiding behind an anonymous account?


i would imagine posting from a banned account is a feat that even Altmer could not achieve


----------



## King Clam

Ruby said:


> Some snark convert who condescends in fake almost purple prose that he was such a dreadful idiot when he cared about others is somebody not worthwhile.


That is pretty good. I do still care about others, just not all others. It's not really fake, though. :B It is overly-dramatic, but that's how I like it.


----------



## Retsu

Gamma Ray said:


> i would imagine posting from a banned account is a feat that even Altmer could not achieve


Oh, gotcha.


----------



## Gamma Ray

Retsu said:


> Oh, gotcha.


you of all people should know the technical hitches involved


----------



## Ruby

We all know you're creepy_kecleon.


----------



## Gamma Ray

Ruby said:


> We all know you're creepy_kecleon.


damn right


----------



## King Clam

C_K actually showed up on the irc channel and I was all "I don't think so Tim".

feels good man


----------



## Dewgong

Retsu said:


> Altmer probably doesn't care about this place, Dewgong.


Oh, I know...


----------



## Eevee

Feralig8tr said:


> So first let me address one thing about that "it's avant-garde to type with no caps or puncuation" thing, it's merely a side effect of talking with a lot of people that don't use them. Monkey see, monkey do, monkey look just like you! It is not an attempt to be hip or "with it", as the homeslices say down in the crib, it's just faster.


Actually it is the classic sign of fakeposting.  I suppose the implication is that whatever I'm replying to is so worthless that I can't even be bothered to press Shift.



Feralig8tr said:


> feels good man


I can only hear this in Lati's voice.  He said it some two dozen times while I was away for Mel's wedding.  :(


----------



## #1 bro

Eevee said:


> Actually it is the classic sign of fakeposting.  I suppose the implication is that whatever I'm replying to is so worthless that I can't even be bothered to press Shift.


Agreed. When I type using no capital letters, I use it to show that either
a) I am not being completely serious
b) What I am saying isn't all that important. 

This can be useful.


----------



## King Clam

Eevee said:


> Actually it is the classic sign of fakeposting.  I suppose the implication is that whatever I'm replying to is so worthless that I can't even be bothered to press Shift.


I was talking about just applying to me.

But yeah I guess I tend to lose the caps more often when I don't care.


----------



## Tailsy

I always thought it gave the implication that you were in a hurry to go ">:|".


----------



## Ether's Bane

I can't fucking believe it, but in just three months, we've had our first bit of drama. Un-fucken-believable.

Could a mod just lock this before it gets out of hand?


----------



## Scizor

You go G8tr! :D


----------



## Mudkipz

The fact is that there will never be a perfect place, on the internet or not, nor will there be any perfect person.
We're all dicks and assholes and whatnot at some point in our lives, but we most likely won't admit to being any of those things in the near future. Everyone thinks that someone's a bitch or jerk, and they'll hold on to that belief. This is far from perfect, even if it's somewhat right.

Same with places. No matter where you go, there will be at least one person unhappy with their surroundings or the way they're ran. Even if they try to prove that it's wrong and it should change, what difference should it make? There's thousands of hundreds of other places out there, all imperfect in their own way. If they're all "fixed", then guess what?

They'll still be imperfect.

Adjetives always depend on who's talking. Perfect is very much an adjetive, so no where will be perfect to everyone. There's almost no point in trying to make a place a utopia because it's a utopia to _you_. Not necessarily to everyone else.


----------



## Retsu

Alabaster said:


> I can't fucking believe it, but in just three months, we've had our first bit of drama. Un-fucken-believable.


Our first exaggeration on the new forums! Lovely.


----------



## Butterfree

I don't think we need this open anymore. It's been a nice and enlightening discussion and all, but it's just getting spammy now.


----------



## Ruby

Help help we're being repressed by Butterfree.


----------



## Eevee

Well, I'm sure glad anything actually came of this.


----------

