# Israeli troops admit they might have gone a little overboard



## Vladimir Putin's LJ (Mar 19, 2009)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7952603.stm



> An Israeli military college has printed damning soldiers' accounts of the killing of civilians and vandalism during recent operations in Gaza.
> 
> One account tells of a sniper killing a mother and children at close range whom troops had told to leave their home.
> 
> ...


If this is the most moral army in the world I'd hate to see the least moral one.
I tried to bold the most, well, 'important' parts, but the whole article should be bolded really.

America, _why do you continue arming this fucking country._
Rest of the world, _why do you not help Palestine._ This isn't a case of anti-semitism or whatever, it's a case of 'Israel is a terrible country'. Why are you doing the exact same fucking thing as the Germans did sixty years ago?

With the Pope's condom fuck-up and now all these depressing testimonies, it's been an utterly brilliant week.


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## Departure Song (Mar 19, 2009)

Israel shouldn't be a country in the first place.


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## Vladimir Putin's LJ (Mar 19, 2009)

Departure Song said:


> Israel shouldn't be a country in the first place.


True, but it's too late now. Someone should just force Israel back to its original 40s boundaries, since it has mysteriously expanded over the last couple of decades.


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## OLD ACCOUNT (Mar 19, 2009)

I have no trouble imagining that the Israeli military would act that way; in a war, people see their enemy as _less_ than them. It just happens. Especially when you're the one actually fighting - if you saw your enemy as an equal, how could you be asked to kill them? You can't kill someone that's equal to you. Meh. 

Not that I'm defending the army... Of course it's not 'the most moral army in the world'. No army is moral. The point of an army is to fight in wars; that's _never_ moral. So 'moral army' is a contradiction of itself. I can't imagine any army that's in any war being moral unless they somehow avoided killing the people they were in war against. ... Which is impossible.

Also, Israel expanded because we got our land the same way all other nations get their land; just because it was done through war doesn't make it magically different than any other land that was taken by war. Seriously, what other way is there to _get_ land? I don't see anyone saying 'Oh, here, we don't like this place anymore - you can have it'. It just doesn't work that way.

EDIT: Also, the only reason I can see that would be logical to help Palestine is to defend them and divide the land equally... so I'm just hoping you didn't mean to conquer all of Israel and give it to them? (Though I'm pretty damn positive that even if the land were divided, no one would be satisfied. Peh.)


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## H-land (Mar 20, 2009)

Vladimir Putin's LJ said:


> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7952603.stm
> America, _why do you continue arming this fucking country._


We give them guns, and they give us money.
We like money.
We like money a _lot_.


Though really, I don't know why we seem to be arming the Israelis exclusively. Historically, the United States hasn't been so picky as to whom to arm. Consider the War of 1812. We got in to that partially because we were arming Napoleon, because it was lucrative, and Britain didn't like that, because Napoleon wanted to invade Britain. (Not that he succeeded.)
Unless I'm getting my history horribly skewed, then one of the factors that contributed to US participation in WWI was the way in which we sold guns to everyone. It's a good way to make money, arming both sides. I don't know why we're shunning the Palestinians. The best guess that I can foster is that we're somehow under the impression that Israel's government is the most stable in the region, and least likely to turn on and attack the United States.

Though, I guess what I'm really looking for is a statement on this topic from US administration. I already knew that civilians were dying in Gaza, and that Israel's government didn't want to admit that it was doing any such thing. I may just be looking for someone in power here at home to confirm that.

On the topic of Israel's expansion: Why do they bother? The people in the lands they take don't like them. The land's not fertile, either, in most spots, or very rich in minerals. Why do you want to possess a fruitless land filled with your enemies? I don't know.
Heck, I'm not even sure exactly what I'm saying, any more. I guess that's part of why I usually don't bother talking about the news.


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## OLD ACCOUNT (Mar 20, 2009)

@H-land, Israel expands because the Jews consider all of Israel to be 'ours' from the Biblical ages. So whatever land we take, is considered 'ours'; whether it has natural resources or whatever isn't important if it was given to us by God.

Also because humans are greedy and like to have more territory? *shrugs*


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## Felidire (Mar 20, 2009)

> whether it has natural resources or whatever isn't important if it was given to us by God.


 That sounds so messed up rofl, wouldn't god want them to share, and treat their neighbours like, um.. oh yeah, people? xD


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## OLD ACCOUNT (Mar 20, 2009)

In theory, sure, but it's not as if hypocrisy is something new (especially among religious folk). Besides, I'm pretty damned sure the Palestinians aren't interested in sharing.


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## Felidire (Mar 20, 2009)

Well apparently neither side is, which makes them equally as whack.

I think the US (and every other country allied with the US) should threaten to blow the living shit out of both sides. Split the land in half, actually _monitor_ them, and tell them that if they continue killing eachother for land, that we'll all nuke their entire bloody country.

They'll probably keep going at it though, rofl.
and yeah, I don't see anything wrong with stooping down to their level to try and reach a compromise.


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## Dannichu (Mar 20, 2009)

Felidire said:


> I think the US (and every other country allied with the US) should threaten to blow the living shit out of both sides. Split the land in half, actually _monitor_ them, and tell them that if they continue killing eachother for land, that we'll all nuke their entire bloody country.
> 
> They'll probably keep going at it though, rofl.
> and yeah, I don't see anything wrong with stooping down to their level to try and reach a compromise.


That would be like opening the world's most _massive_ can of worms. If _any _superpower threatened to wipe two countries off the face of the earth - countries that were no threat whatsoever to the superpower in question - then all hell would break loose.

Not to mention the US is on Israel's side for this, and as a result, isn't going to do anything anti-Israel. 
And because no country on earth wants to get into the US's bad books, they're not going to aid Palestine. Which is pretty much the crux of the issue; when VPLJ said "Rest of the world, _why do you not help Palestine_. This isn't a case of anti-semitism or whatever, it's a case of 'Israel is a terrible country'. Why are you doing the exact same fucking thing as the Germans did sixty years ago?" the answer is basically, nobody wants to stand up to the States.

Also, the US's "monitoring" skills aren't the best. I mean, geez, they're supposed to be helping now, not killing civillians.


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## Icalasari (Mar 20, 2009)

Felidire said:


> That sounds so messed up rofl, wouldn't god want them to share, and treat their neighbours like, um.. oh yeah, people? xD


One of the laws in the old testament (it is in my sig via the random tag) states that one should give a city the option to surrender. They don't, kill them. They do, enslave them

Yeah, the Old Testament (As in, the Torah) probably has something in it that says it is ok >.>

Also, IIRC, they were attacked all the times before they expanded, so it was more of a way to get the enemy to stop than anything


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## Felidire (Mar 20, 2009)

Dannichu said:


> Not to mention the US is on Israel's side for this, and as a result, isn't going to do anything anti-Israel.
> And because no country on earth wants to get into the US's bad books, they're not going to aid Palestine. Which is pretty much the crux of the issue; when VPLJ said "Rest of the world, _why do you not help Palestine_. This isn't a case of anti-semitism or whatever, it's a case of 'Israel is a terrible country'. Why are you doing the exact same fucking thing as the Germans did sixty years ago?" the answer is basically, nobody wants to stand up to the States.


I know.. how the hell can anyone pick a side.. I _would_ side with palestine, but hasn't palestine basically been poking a sleeping dragon for the past few decades? They kinda brought this upon themselves, but that doesn't justify what Israel is doing now.

You know what the sad thing is: fear = control.
US, China, Russia, they're all scary and all of us little countries have to comply with their decisions. If it's a country with a massive army and loads of nuclear weapons capable of blasting entire other countries into pieces, then everyone else automatically bows down to them.

If enough of the smaller countries wanted to do something to stop this, do you think the US would help, or would they threaten/cut ties with these countries? Our simply sit back and watch.


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## Vladimir Putin's LJ (Mar 20, 2009)

Felidire said:


> I know.. how the hell can anyone pick a side.. I _would_ side with palestine, but hasn't palestine basically been poking a sleeping dragon for the past few decades? They kinda brought this upon themselves, but that doesn't justify what Israel is doing now.


It's moslty Hamas that's been actively doing anything against Israel. The peaceful liberation groups (like Fatah) are universally ignored. I'm not saying Hamas using force to get their point across is a good thing (because it isn't), but literally *no one *gives a shit about Palestine. This is the only way they get heard of.
And whoever said Israel was justified for conquering Palestinian land because Palestine attacks Israel - don't be stupid. Palestine itself doesn't attack anyone, it's only groups like Hamas that do any damage (and even then they don't do shit because they have the worst weapons in the world) so Israel has no excuse for what they're doing.
And no, you can't say 'well it's only militant israeli groups who attack palestine not israel itself!!' because the people doing the slaughtering are from the IDF, the Israeli Defence Force, Israel's army, most moral army on God's green Earth.

The only real solution I see (except travelling back in time to stop Israel from getting created or at least put it on British or American ground. You guys were the ones intent on creating the bloody place) would be to force Israel back to its original boundaries, make all the illegal settlers get the fuck out of Palestine and *stop arming them *for christ's sake.



> US, China, Russia, they're all scary and all of us little countries have to comply with their decisions. If it's a country with a massive army and loads of nuclear weapons capable of blasting entire other countries into pieces, then everyone else automatically bows down to them.


Israel has 100-200 nuclear weapons. That's about as much as China.
I'm kind of surprised they haven't used them yet but seeing as there's so many illegal Israeli settlers they probably don't want to risk killing any of the master race.


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## Harlequin (Mar 20, 2009)

Israel is a terrible country, we should destroy it. It shouldn't exist :( also I hate that a justification used for taking Palestinian land is "God gave it to us." That should _not_ be a valid reason for anything.

:( someone do something to help Palestine.


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## Icalasari (Mar 20, 2009)

The biggest problem is the fact that Israeli's DO have a right to a country, but they insist on that spot. In fact, isn't the area Israel occupies important to Christainity and Muslims as well?

>.> This would be one of those ironic times where religion makes things worse despite claiming to make things better


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## Vladimir Putin's LJ (Mar 20, 2009)

Harlequin said:


> Israel is a terrible country, we should destroy it. It shouldn't exist :( also I hate that a justification used for taking Palestinian land is "God gave it to us." That should _not_ be a valid reason for anything.
> 
> :( someone do something to help Palestine.


Definitely a terrible country, but destroying it implies killing everyone in it and that's totally unjustified. I think the only real solution at this point is really to make it 1947 Israel, boundary-wise. It's still pretty unfair but it's a lot better than what it is now.
And yeah God Gave It To Us is a terrible excuse, unfortunately many people believe it's valid.

I've attended a protest but regular people can't do much except protest and donate money to Palestine (which I'm going to do). Obama&co recently gave them a nice amount of cash, if I remember correctly.



Icalasari said:


> The biggest problem is the fact that Israeli's DO have a right to a country, but they insist on that spot. In fact, isn't the area Israel occupies important to Christainity and Muslims as well?


Is there some kind of test one can take to see if one 'has a right' to a country? Specifically a country occupied by other people? We're not in the middle ages, you can't just up and steal land and claim it as your own.
And no it's not 'the area' it's just Jerusalem, which is a total shithole right now because all three religions keep competing to see who can out-douchebag the other. The Muslims have erected a wall in front of the Special Jew Graveyard (supposedly God's going to make you come back to life in the rapture if you're buried there to take you to heaven or something) so that they can't march to Heaven.

Which is bloody retarded seeing as if God could *make people come back to life *he could probably, probably step over a crappy stone wall.



> >.> This would be one of those ironic times where religion makes things worse despite claiming to make things better


Religion does that all the time, it's not exactly news.


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## Harlequin (Mar 20, 2009)

Vladimir Putin's LJ said:


> Definitely a terrible country, but destroying it implies killing everyone in it and that's totally unjustified. I think the only real solution at this point is really to make it 1947 Israel, boundary-wise. It's still pretty unfair but it's a lot better than what it is now.
> And yeah God Gave It To Us is a terrible excuse, unfortunately many people believe it's valid.
> 
> I've attended a protest but regular people can't do much except protest and donate money to Palestine (which I'm going to do). Obama&co recently gave them a nice amount of cash, if I remember correctly.
> ...


Well no what I meant was we should say "Israel is no longer a country, sorry" and refuse to have anything to do with it. America needs to take the pineapple out of its arse first, mind, but *it can be done!*


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## OLD ACCOUNT (Mar 20, 2009)

Vladimir Putin's LJ said:


> And whoever said Israel was justified for conquering Palestinian land because Palestine attacks Israel - don't be stupid. Palestine itself doesn't attack anyone, it's only groups like Hamas that do any damage (and even then they don't do shit because they have the worst weapons in the world) so Israel has no excuse for what they're doing.


That's _now_. But when we conquered the land, we were being attacked on all sides - by Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Jordan, Palestine, etc. So to say we weren't being attacked is just insulting. 

What we're doing now? No excuse. But expanding our territory? _Definitely_ an excuse.



> And no, you can't say 'well it's only militant israeli groups who attack palestine not israel itself!!' because the people doing the slaughtering are from the IDF, the Israeli Defence Force, Israel's army, most moral army on God's green Earth.


... no one ever said that?



> Israel has 100-200 nuclear weapons. That's about as much as China.
> I'm kind of surprised they haven't used them yet but seeing as there's so many illegal Israeli settlers they probably don't want to risk killing any of the master race.


Uh, yeah, or we don't want to start a nuclear war. One or the other.



> Is there some kind of test one can take to see if one 'has a right' to a country? Specifically a country occupied by other people? We're not in the middle ages, you can't just up and steal land and claim it as your own.
> And no it's not 'the area' it's just Jerusalem, which is a total shithole right now because all three religions keep competing to see who can out-douchebag the other. The Muslims have erected a wall in front of the Special Jew Graveyard (supposedly God's going to make you come back to life in the rapture if you're buried there to take you to heaven or something) so that they can't march to Heaven.


Have you ever _been_ to Jerusalem? I go there almost every day and it's most certainly _not_ a shithole. o_O I have no idea where you're getting that from - comparing it to New York (where I've also been, and was raised), it's doing just fine, thanks. Rather well, to be honest.

Also a test for getting your own country would be having a holocaust because you don't have a military to defend yourself with.

(And this isn't really important but the Massiah for the Jews comes to _all_ Jews and, I believe, all humans; not just those that're buried in Jerusalem. It's just that it _comes_ in Jerusalem. And the Temple was in Jerusalem.)

Sorry for going quote-crazy it's just easier to respond that way. <<;


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## GameFreakerZero (Mar 20, 2009)

Whivit said:


> Also a test for getting your own country would be having a holocaust because you don't have a military to defend yourself with.


How does the Holocaust justify a completely unrelated country having land taken from it? Especially when that nearly all that land has essentially been absorbed into Israel over the past sixty years?

And saying that other countries gained land through war is irrelevant in this day and age, it'd be preferable if we got over the mentality of "I beat you up now that's mine". Forceful takeovers are generally* viewed as a bad thing, you know?

*Or at least supposed to be


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## Vladimir Putin's LJ (Mar 20, 2009)

Whivit said:


> That's _now_. But when we conquered the land, we were being attacked on all sides - by Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Jordan, Palestine, etc. So to say we weren't being attacked is just insulting.


Attack those countries then. Oops, they're not as defenseless as Palestine, I'd forgotten.



> What we're doing now? No excuse. But expanding our territory? _Definitely_ an excuse.


Wait, so what you're doing now (ie slaughtering Palestine) is inexcusable (true) but expanding your country (by slaughtering Palestine) is awesome? That makes perfect sense!



> ... no one ever said that?


Yes thank you, I am obviously blind and retarded. This couldn't have been a pre-emptive answer because I was certain someone was either thinking it or going to say it.



> Uh, yeah, or we don't want to start a nuclear war. One or the other.


hurf



> Have you ever _been_ to Jerusalem? I go there almost every day and it's most certainly _not_ a shithole. o_O I have no idea where you're getting that from - comparing it to New York (where I've also been, and was raised), it's doing just fine, thanks. Rather well, to be honest.


Ah yes, I have to experience everything and visit every country to form an opinion on it, thank you for reminding me of The Rule. And I didn't mean physically because yeah Jerusalem looks quite nice but religiously and politically? Christ.



> Also a test for getting your own country would be having a holocaust because you don't have a military to defend yourself with.


So every minority who ever got persecuted and slaughtered should get a country? Christ, that's a job and a half, buddy.



> (And this isn't really important but the Massiah for the Jews comes to _all_ Jews and, I believe, all humans; not just those that're buried in Jerusalem. It's just that it _comes_ in Jerusalem. And the Temple was in Jerusalem.)


I always found that weird too, but apparently either the Muslims got it wrong or that particular hill is special or something.
Genuine question: why can't anyone rebuild the temple? Is there some kind of fixed condition for it to be built again or something?


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## Harlequin (Mar 20, 2009)

um wait

why does the holocaust entitle you to a country exactly? does this mean gays get a country? I'd like a country. We can call it Penisland or something, idk. The gypsies would like a country, too.


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## OLD ACCOUNT (Mar 20, 2009)

GameFreakerZero said:


> How does the Holocaust justify a completely unrelated country having land taken from it? Especially when that nearly all that land has essentially been absorbed into Israel over the past sixty years?


I never said it was okay to take land from the Palestinians; I said the Jews deserve our own country. One does not, technically, equal the other. Obviously, realistically, it does... but that doesn't mean the Jews _don't_ deserve our own land. The ultimate solution would always be finding a piece of land that isn't occupied by anyone, but since that's _impossible_, I don't see a solution.



> And saying that other countries gained land through war is irrelevant in this day and age, it'd be preferable if we got over the mentality of "I beat you up now that's mine". Forceful takeovers are generally* viewed as a bad thing, you know?


Uh, what? I have no such mentality. My point was _why are you picking on Israel_ when EVERY country has done exactly the same thing. Of course it isn't right, but if EVERY COUNTRY did it it's quite hypocritical to choose only one country from all of them and harass only _them_. Does anyone yell at the US for taking land from the Native Americans? Not seriously.



Vladimir Putin's LJ said:


> Attack those countries then. Oops, they're not as defenseless as Palestine, I'd forgotten.


We were just as defenseless as Palestine when the war happened - even more so, since they had way more territory than us and allies surrounding us everywhere. The reason we attacked Palestine was because they were closest, and we made allies with Egypt (and attempted to make allies with Palestine, but we're all asses so that went to hell). There's no need to attack Iran or Iraq since neither one of us wants eachothers' land.



> Wait, so what you're doing now (ie slaughtering Palestine) is inexcusable (true) but expanding your country (by slaughtering Palestine) is awesome? That makes perfect sense!


Jesus effing christ, I never said what we did before was 'awesome'. There are shades of gray, you know? Things aren't always black and white.

And, again, we didn't expand our territory simply because we wanted territory. It was because we were at war, and the only way to defeat our enemy was to take their territory; take theirs, or they take ours. It's a rather easy choice.



> Ah yes, I have to experience everything and visit every country to form an opinion on it, thank you for reminding me of The Rule. And I didn't mean physically because yeah Jerusalem looks quite nice but religiously and politically? Christ.


Actually yes I would prefer you experience something yourself before forming an opinion on it. Since other sources are generally... crap.



> So every minority who ever got persecuted and slaughtered should get a country? Christ, that's a job and a half, buddy.


Most other minorities DO have a country. o_O Or at least someplace to call their own.



> I always found that weird too, but apparently either the Muslims got it wrong or that particular hill is special or something.
> Genuine question: why can't anyone rebuild the temple? Is there some kind of fixed condition for it to be built again or something?


I'm not sure, uh... I think it's meant to be rebuilt by the Messiah when he comes, or just magically rebuilt. And rebuilding it before than is... blasphemous? *shrugs*



Harlequin said:


> um wait
> 
> why does the holocaust entitle you to a country exactly? does this mean gays get a country? I'd like a country. We can call it Penisland or something, idk. The gypsies would like a country, too.


Because if we have our own country, if another holocaust happens then we can flee _here_ instead of trying to flee to other places and being kicked out/rejected. 

And if it were up to me, sure. o_O (there are gay women too though so penisland isn't really a great name.)


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## GameFreakerZero (Mar 20, 2009)

Whivit said:


> The ultimate solution would always be finding a piece of land that isn't occupied by anyone, but since that's _impossible_, I don't see a solution.


Get land as compensation from the dudes who actually _caused the Holocaust_ or from the countries who were so keen on getting the Jews a country in the first place? I don't see why a random country in the Middle East needs to be dragged into it.

Oh right. Jerusalem. US wanting a buddy in the Middle East. Britain wanting Palestine off its hands.



> Of course it isn't right, but if EVERY COUNTRY did it it's quite hypocritical to choose only one country from all of them and harass only _them_. Does anyone yell at the US for taking land from the Native Americans? Not seriously.


Yes because not mentioning countries completely irrelevant to the discussion just to verify we think colonialism and invasion of other countries are bull shit means we approve of them.

You want me to go on a big rant about how the British Empire, and the general colonial attitude of Europe as a whole, was complete bull shit that majorly fucked up just about every place in the world it went to, leading to oppression, segregation and the destruction of culture and entire races, as shown _especially_ well in the colonisation of the Northern parts of the Americas regarding the mass extinctions of races like the Aztecs and the diminution of other parts of the Native American population, and the effects of which _are still felt to this day_?

Oh right, we're talking about Israel in this thread, _silly me_.



> And, again, we didn't expand our territory simply because we wanted territory. It was because we were at war, and the only way to defeat our enemy was to take their territory; take theirs, or they take ours. It's a rather easy choice.


Yeah but most land Israel took from countries that weren't Palestine were given back, like that gigantic region of Egypt, Sinai, Israel gained in one of the wars. Meanwhile Palestine has slowly been diminishing over the years, as evidenced by VPLJ's maps.


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## OLD ACCOUNT (Mar 20, 2009)

GameFreakerZero said:


> Get land as compensation from the dudes who actually _caused the Holocaust_ or from the countries who were so keen on getting the Jews a country in the first place? I don't see why a random country in the Middle East needs to be dragged into it.


I don't really see how it's Israel's fault that Germany didn't give us any land?



> Yes because not mentioning countries completely irrelevant to the discussion just to verify we think colonialism and invasion of other countries are bull shit means we approve of them.
> 
> You want me to go on a big rant about how the British Empire, and the general colonial attitude of Europe as a whole, was complete bull shit that majorly fucked up just about every place in the world it went to, leading to oppression, segregation and the destruction of culture and entire races, as shown _especially_ well in the colonisation of the Northern parts of the Americas regarding the mass extinctions of races like the Aztecs and the diminution of other parts of the Native American population, and the effects of which _are still felt to this day_?
> 
> Oh right, we're talking about Israel in this thread, _silly me_.


Uh, no. Does it have to be one or the other? Geez. How 'bout instead of either ranting about everything or ranting about nothing, you just - I don't know - decide not to act as if Israel is the _only nation_ that _ever_ took land during war.



> Yeah but most land Israel took from countries that weren't Palestine were given back, like that gigantic region of Egypt, Sinai, Israel gained in one of the wars. Meanwhile Palestine has slowly been diminishing over the years, as evidenced by VPLJ's maps.


That's because those countries were willing to allow us to keep the land we didn't return. Palestine, however, isn't content with getting just _some_ land; they want all or nothing. So there isn't really any point, is there?

Like when we offered them several million dollars, and they said they'd only be satisfied when all the Jews are dead? Or when we gave the Gaza and the replied by continuing to bomb us (and seriously you have NO IDEA how much giving away Gaza infuriated the everyone I knew, it was like a civil war or something; imagine giving away, uh, Manchester to France. People would _not_ be happy).


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## GameFreakerZero (Mar 21, 2009)

Whivit said:


> I don't really see how it's Israel's fault that Germany didn't give us any land?


I don't really see how it's Palestine's fault that the Holocaust happened.



> Uh, no. Does it have to be one or the other? Geez. How 'bout instead of either ranting about everything or ranting about nothing, you just - I don't know - decide not to act as if Israel is the _only nation_ that _ever_ took land during war.


And you completely miss my point. Thanks.

My point was that it should not be necessary to have to explain my feelings about other invasions and colonisations in the past and present because the subject matter is about _Israel_. It should be fairly evident from the fact we're against Israel's actions that we'd feel equally the same about similar actions other countries have perpetrated.

Just because others have done it _doesn't mean it's an all right thing to do_.



> That's because those countries were willing to allow us to keep the land we didn't return. Palestine, however, isn't content with getting just _some_ land; they want all or nothing. So there isn't really any point, is there?


Iirc Fatah was willing to subside with Gaza, and I'm sure most Palestinians would be fine with being given back the land they originally had allocated to them by the UN. Just because a group speaks the loudest doesn't mean they're the most populous.



> (and seriously you have NO IDEA how much giving away Gaza infuriated the everyone I knew, it was like a civil war or something; imagine giving away, uh, Manchester to France. People would _not_ be happy).


Surely a better analogy would be, let's say France was given half of England by Japan and China. After a number of wars with Scotland, Wales and Ireland over ideological differences and refusal to recognise France's half of England as a state, France had managed to absorb all of England. After over a half a century of fighting for their land, the English are given Manchester.

Please stop assuming people are saying Israel is the only invasive force they disagree with when you talk about Israel as if it's always been there and the Palestinians are the ones invading.


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## OLD ACCOUNT (Mar 21, 2009)

GameFreakerZero said:


> I don't really see how it's Palestine's fault that the Holocaust happened.


It isn't, and of it's unfair or whatever but it isn't the Jews' fault either. We asked for land and were given this.



> And you completely miss my point. Thanks.
> 
> My point was that it should not be necessary to have to explain my feelings about other invasions and colonisations in the past and present because the subject matter is about _Israel_. It should be fairly evident from the fact we're against Israel's actions that we'd feel equally the same about similar actions other countries have perpetrated.
> 
> Just because others have done it _doesn't mean it's an all right thing to do_.


I never said it was an alright thing to do. I'm not using the 'everyone else did it' excuse, so please stop acting like I am.

Things are never 'fairly obvious', especially not in these types of discussions. I don't know about other people but I don't just assume things, though it seems _you_ assumed that I would. Sorry to disappoint?



> Iirc Fatah was willing to subside with Gaza, and I'm sure most Palestinians would be fine with being given back the land they originally had allocated to them by the UN. Just because a group speaks the loudest doesn't mean they're the most populous.


But if Fatah wasn't doing anything to stop Hamas, how's that helping us? Hamas _was_ bombing us, so... 



> Please stop assuming people are saying Israel is the only invasive force they disagree with when you talk about Israel as if it's always been there and the Palestinians are the ones invading.


To Israelis, Israel _has_ always has been here. You must realize that to the Jews, Israel has always belonged to us, since Biblical times; when the Palestinians had it, it was just 'temporary' or until God gave it back or wtfever. Whether it's correct or not that they use religion as a reason or whatever, that's how it is. Religion is crazy but it isn't going anywhere.


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## Felidire (Mar 21, 2009)

Sorry if I overlooked something, but why is it that they all can't just simply share the whole thing as one country? Pride?  Ego?  ..the misguided belief that their lord would _want_ them to blast the living shit out of other humans, (which he supposedly _created)_ in order for one group of people to have this land & be closer to him than the other ones?

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now we need to fight to uproot the gentiles who interfere with re-conquering the Holy Land."
		
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Whivit said:


> We asked for land and were given this.


That was awesome, made me lol. ,,xD



> To Israelis, Israel _has_ always has been here. You must realize that to the Jews, Israel has always belonged to us, since Biblical times; when the Palestinians had it, it was just 'temporary' or until God gave it back or wtfever. Whether it's correct or not that they use religion as a reason or whatever, that's how it is. Religion is crazy but it isn't going anywhere.


They've always been there? ..How long ago was it that Judaism began? 

"Indigenous" Australian peoples have _apparently_ lived over here for near 70,000 years, and despite the fact that we killed them and treated them shittily(lol) when we moved in, I don't see them firing missiles(or lolspears) at us.

All they do is run around, graffiti, and break things. <3


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## Vladimir Putin's LJ (Mar 21, 2009)

Palestine is not and has not been attacking you over the past years, ever.
Hamas are doing all the attacking. Hamas are not related to the Palestinian government in any way, shape or form.

I'll reply in more detail later but right I've got a train to catch :v

EDIT: and no the Palestinian government can't really do anything about it right now on account of the fact that they have half a million things to worry about in the remnants of their own country before they take care of groups attacking other countries (this is pre-emptive, I'm not blind and retarded yet).


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## GameFreakerZero (Mar 21, 2009)

Whivit said:


> It isn't, and of it's unfair or whatever but it isn't the Jews' fault either. We asked for land and were given this.


The Jews were given half of it and then proceeded to devour nearly all of the rest of Palestine into itself.

At this point, I doubt anyone's seriously going to suggest Israel cease to exist, for fairly obvious reasons, but I think the majority of people who're against Israel's actions just want Palestine restored to the amount of land the UN gave it sixty or so years ago.



> I never said it was an alright thing to do. I'm not using the 'everyone else did it' excuse, so please stop acting like I am.


While I'll admit I did slightly misunderstand your point, and that what I said was a bit presumptuous, I'd ask you to stop trying to diminish the issue by saying everyone else did it. Not only are unrelated countries actions irrelevant to the discussion, most people here would say _the exact same thing about similar situations if they happened in other countries_.

Complaining that we're picking on Israel in a discussion about Israel's relations with Palestine is redundant. Reasons for yelling at Israel are evident in the first post.



> But if Fatah wasn't doing anything to stop Hamas, how's that helping us? Hamas _was_ bombing us, so...


How is it Fatah's fault that extremists were going and killing Israelis when they were trying to negotiate peace?


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