# Morality of Training Pokemon



## Involuntary Twitch (Aug 28, 2010)

So, guys. What's the moral justification people have for removing creatures from their habitats and forcing them to fight each other for fun and profit? There was a cool discussion about it on /vp/ and I want to hear your thoughts on the matter.

I... actually, I remember reading something in a fic about how Pokemon condescend to be trained because even though some Pokemon possess computational skills far beyond those of humans (such as Alakazam having an IQ of 5000 or Metagross being as smart as a supercomputer), they lack the inspiration or creativity to fully utilize their abilities and require a trainer's guidance to achieve their full potential.

Freshly-caught Pokemon also obey their trainers immediately after capture. Why?


----------



## Aisling (Aug 28, 2010)

Involuntary Twitch said:


> Freshly-caught Pokemon also obey their trainers immediately after capture. Why?


Probably just a form of submission or something. Sure they have awesome, amazing powers, but humans have technology that can at least contain it. Plus the trainer has their own Pokemon that can possibly beat them, since that's how they probably got weakened enough to be caught in the first place.

That's how it begins, and then a good trainer will show the Pokemon his or her intentions and they reach their full potential together.


----------



## Thorne (Aug 28, 2010)

I never saw the whole problem with "forcing Pogeymans to fight omg!" And that's because I think of it like wrestling, rather than cockfighting. It IS fighting, but the fighters themselves enjoy it. I'm pretty sure it's stated at some point that the Pokémon enjoy fighting.

As for the Pokéball thing, my personal explanation is that a Pokéball is like a leash in the sense that it binds the Pokémon to the trainer. They might not like the trainer (a lot of Team X grunts stole their 'mons from other trainers) but there is something that stops them from just walking away.


----------



## Green (Aug 28, 2010)

These are the questions that keep me up at night.

I think that a pokemon and a human have to 'choose' each other, then prove their worth to each other in combat. Kind of like soulmates except less intimate.


----------



## Superbird (Aug 28, 2010)

...If a pokemon doesn't want to take the chance of being captured, it can either run away or just stay out of the Humans' way period. The only ones we encounter are willing to be captured.


----------



## Condabra (Aug 28, 2010)

The Pokeball has a slightly weak mind control force.


----------



## NegativeVibe (Aug 28, 2010)

^^I wouldn't be surprised. :D 


KronoGreen said:


> These are the questions that keep me up at
> night.
> 
> I think that a pokemon and a human have to 'choose' each other, then prove their worth to each other in combat. Kind of like soulmates except less intimate.


This makes sense. 


superbird said:


> ...If a pokemon doesn't want to take the chance of being captured, it can either run away or just stay out of the humans' way period. The only ones we encounter are willing to be captured.


I agree with this too. A trainer shouldn't capture a Pokemon that wants to stay wild, while a wild Pokemon that wanted to remain that way would stay out of the trainer's path. Of course, they're going to cross paths sooner or later, so the theory doesn't work perfectly. 

Although maybe a Pokemon would want to get captured, at least for the sake of being a better battler.


----------



## Jason-Kun (Aug 29, 2010)

> Long ago, when Sinnoh had just been
> made, Pokémon and humans led
> separate lives.
> That is not to say they did not help
> ...


This quote found in Canalave City in DPPt pretty much says that Pokemon purposely show themselves in order to be caught so they can help people. So, I think they do like to battle, ya know?


----------



## RespectTheBlade (Aug 29, 2010)

I think that if a pokemon is captured, it is bound to it's trainer, wether the like it or not. (this is why the attacks Return and Frustraion do any decent damage.) The pokemon could plead to be released, but the trainer would ultimately have the final word in it. I don't think it's morally wrong, unless you collect a bunch of pokemon slaves who all hate you.


----------



## Chief Zackrai (Aug 29, 2010)

Personally, I don't see how certain pokemon feel the need to obey the person who has their pokeball. Especially if the person is young. Think about it. In almost every game that they've come out with, a ten-year-old catches an almighty (at least to some extent) creature that instantly obeys him/her. One of the best examples is Mewtwo in Red/Blue or Firered/Leafgreen. You catch it, a level seventy uber, and it obeys you just like that. If I was Mewtwo, I would have used my super uber powers and disintegrated the offending trainer. And besides, isn't Mewtwo Blaine's pokemon? why can you even catch it?

Also, psuedo-legendaries like Tyranitar and Garchomp/maybe Salamence. They've got some pretty impressive power, and on the show recently (actually, I don't know how recent it was, but it was part of the Sinnoh saga), a kid who was far younger than Ash even, had a freakin' Tyranitar. How'd he even train it that much? (this is assuming that it has always been his pokemon, of course) And I don't mention Dragonnite, because the way I think of Dragonite, they are like gentle giants, because you see them living with like old people and farmers often. They are actually one of the few pokemon I could believe wanting to obey its trainer.


----------



## Superbird (Aug 29, 2010)

^ Well, there's one possible theory for this in TQFTL. The 10 agreements of Pokémon training. If they didn't obey, Arceus would, like, come out and destroy them.


----------



## Lady Grimdour (Aug 29, 2010)

It's an honor thing.

A Pokemon gets caught unawares by a Trainer/vice versa. He gets his Pokeball out and releases another Pokemon. They fight. If the Pokemon is fainted, the Trainer moves on and the Pokemon wakes up, goes to hide to lick its wounds, ready to beat another Trainer/Pokemon.

If it's caught, then it considers the Trainer to be "worthy", since he won AND made the Pokemon submit too.


----------



## Green (Aug 29, 2010)

Zackrinian said:


> And besides, isn't Mewtwo Blaine's pokemon? why can you even catch it?


what? when was it stated to be blaine's pokemon?


----------



## RespectTheBlade (Aug 29, 2010)

KronoGreen said:


> what? when was it stated to be blaine's pokemon?


Well, I'm not sure, but there was mention of it in the Yellow Manga.


----------



## Green (Aug 29, 2010)

RespectTheBlade said:


> Well, I'm not sure, but there was mention of it in the Yellow Manga.


No, it said it had some of Blaine's DNA in it. Not that it was his pokémon.


----------



## Butterfree (Aug 29, 2010)

Not to mention that the manga isn't canon (or rather, it's its own canon).

All the evidence from both game and anime canon suggests they like it just fine. Some Pokémon, when happy and brought to the footprint guy in D/P, will explicitly say stuff like, "My trainer brings me to new exciting places and helps me get strong." Disobedient Pokémon act lazy and dismissive of your commands rather than refusing to fight out of anything that could sensibly be interpreted as moral objection. There is no sign of coercion being involved, etc. etc. I already wrote and rewrote an article about this several times.



> I... actually, I remember reading something in a fic about how Pokemon condescend to be trained because even though some Pokemon possess computational skills far beyond those of humans (such as Alakazam having an IQ of 5000 or Metagross being as smart as a supercomputer), they lack the inspiration or creativity to fully utilize their abilities and require a trainer's guidance to achieve their full potential.


That was probably my fic.


----------



## Blastoise Fortooate (Aug 29, 2010)

Humans (trainers, especially) are probably pretty intimidating to a lot of smaller/younger pokés; they've got other pokémon doing what they say, and their pokémon seem to be pretty strong. They can shoot pokémon from big red-and-white berries, heal pokémon in a few minutes, etcetera etcetera. 

Also, you know, Pokémon that go with a trainer have like ~0% chance of dying in battle. That's a huge advantage as far as I would be concerned.


----------



## Anomaly 54 (Aug 31, 2010)

^This^
Specificly that route to the north of the Fight Area in DPPl, why would the (very rare) Rattata and Spearow stay and risk their lives when they could be caught? 

I personally believe that's why Pokémon like Rattata have higher catch rates then, say, Snorlax. Snorlax can just crush the offender, anyway.


----------



## Chief Zackrai (Sep 1, 2010)

St. Christopher said:


> what? when was it stated to be blaine's pokemon?


well, its not in the game. But for quite a while in the manga, Blaine totes Mewtwo around in a Master Ball, ready for battles, but at a cost.


----------



## glitchedgamer (Sep 2, 2010)

Well, I think as long as they are treated as equals by their trainer, Pokemon enjoy fighting and testing their skill.


----------



## Lord Mewtwo (Sep 7, 2010)

Do you remember in the Celebi film, the dark Ball demonstration by the hunter. The moment Tyranitar and then later Celebi were captured in it, they were evil. I think any standard pokeball works in the same way, the pokemon is just then instantly tamed.

Pokemon are like any real wild animal, it's all about survival and nothing else. Take Koko the gorilla, anyone heard of her. She's famous for being able to speak sign language, she knows well over one hundred signs I believe. Apes have always been regarded as the smartest animals there are next to people, but Koko couldn't know all these signs without having been taught. I have also seen Chimps and Orangutans who can actually read and solve math problems but again these are all capabilities not instincts, an ape may be capable of learning to read or sign but could never without being taught.

This applies to even humans, does anyone here play an instrument? Well could you have without being taught(self taught included)? I doubt it.

Pokemon I suspect work the same way, they are of course capable of skillful and strategical battle but need to be taught and trained. It makes perfect sense.


----------



## Enkoe (Sep 11, 2010)

Well I've always puzzled over the subject.

I haven't since Pokemon 4 Ever but I have been told there are Dark Balls there, so Amber I think you're right, that if a Pokemon is caught in a Poke Ball they are instantly tamed and are "made" or "forced" to obey the trainer's commands. Usually a legendary is "forced" to obey them when captured in a Poke Ball, as a legendary has a more smarter and developed mind than your average Bidoof (**** BIDOOF!) so yeah. But if you trade a Pokemon, they don't really obey you unless you have a badge, so I think a badge is a sort of "outsider" Pokemon tame-device, apart from being keys to use HMs.


----------



## Butterfree (Sep 11, 2010)

> Do you remember in the Celebi film, the dark Ball demonstration by the hunter. The moment Tyranitar and then later Celebi were captured in it, they were evil. I think any standard pokeball works in the same way, the pokemon is just then instantly tamed.


But that doesn't make any sense. Why would anyone make a big deal about Dark Balls if normal Pokéballs were exactly the same thing? The whole point of Dark Balls is that balls that force Pokémon to blindly obey are _bad_.

Further, we see a very, very clear difference between the behavior of Pokémon under actual Pokéball-induced mind-control as seen in the movie and the behavior of ordinary Pokémon who have been caught in ordinary Pokéballs. Dark Ball Celebi was stiff, soulless and blindly obedient; normal Pokémon are far from it. We see Pokémon disobeying ordinary trainers frequently, but it's always portrayed as a casual, lazy, disrespectful disobedience as opposed to the pure despair of Celebi shaking off the influence of the Dark Ball. _Normal Pokéballs are not mind-control devices_; this has been made quite plain.


----------



## Superbird (Sep 12, 2010)

Butterfree said:


> Why would anyone make a big deal about Dark Balls if normal Pokéballs were exactly the same thing?


Dark balls, in addition to mind-controlling the subject, also substantially increase the subject's power. In my opinion, Pokéballs don't force a pokémon to obey, but they _do_ capture the pokémon. A pokémon in a Pokéball has control of its actions, but the pokéball makes it more docile and willing to obey its trainer. 

As for traded pokémon, they were already connected to their previous owner, and feel like their new trainer isn't worthy enough to control them. The amount of badges a trainer has shows the traded pokémon that the trainer is strong, and is indeed worthy enough to harness the pokémon's abilities. This is why the more badges one has, the more pokémon obey.


----------



## Lord Mewtwo (Sep 12, 2010)

Butterfree said:


> But that doesn't make any sense. Why would anyone make a big deal about Dark Balls if normal Pokéballs were exactly the same thing? The whole point of Dark Balls is that balls that force Pokémon to blindly obey are _bad_.
> 
> Further, we see a very, very clear difference between the behavior of Pokémon under actual Pokéball-induced mind-control as seen in the movie and the behavior of ordinary Pokémon who have been caught in ordinary Pokéballs. Dark Ball Celebi was stiff, soulless and blindly obedient; normal Pokémon are far from it. We see Pokémon disobeying ordinary trainers frequently, but it's always portrayed as a casual, lazy, disrespectful disobedience as opposed to the pure despair of Celebi shaking off the influence of the Dark Ball. _Normal Pokéballs are not mind-control devices_; this has been made quite plain.


I suppose you make a good point, but I did not mean to imply that it would be exactly like the dark ball, I used it simply because it is the clearest example there has ever been of a pokeballs effect on a pokemon.


----------



## Butterfree (Sep 14, 2010)

But the whole point of the Dark Ball is that it is _not_ an example; it's highly atypical _exactly because_ it has that effect on the Pokémon. It's like claiming all humans have mustaches because Nietzsche had one, and then saying you mentioned him because he's the clearest example. Well, of course he is the clearest example, but that's exactly why he is not an example of _normal_ people's mustachiness at all. The Dark Ball proves nothing about the effect that other Pokéballs have on Pokémon.



> Dark balls, in addition to mind-controlling the subject, also substantially increase the subject's power.


Sure, but that's not relevant; increasing their power was not the reason the Dark Ball was bad.



> In my opinion, Pokéballs don't force a pokémon to obey, but they do  capture the pokémon. A pokémon in a Pokéball has control of its actions, but the pokéball makes it more docile and willing to obey its trainer.


See, what I don't get is why you _prefer_ to insert some element of dubious consent into this where it's not directly indicated by canon and not necessary to make sense of it.


----------



## Lord Mewtwo (Sep 18, 2010)

My apologies then for an incorrect comparison.


----------



## LadyJirachu (Sep 4, 2018)

Pokemon training IS NOT mean. Pokemon like battling, and they don't get seriously hurt by it. They have bodies built to take attacks from each other and grow in power from the experiences of winning.

Pokemon bond with their trainers more and more as they win too.

It can be hard for some people to grasp i'm sure plus fights in general in real life well yeah you can get hurt in them although theres fighting sports that like pokemon people don't seem to get injered in them.

Yeah....maybe one needs to understand sports in general just a little to understand that pokemon battles are harmless.

Though I wasn't THAT exposed to sports stuff, I think i've picked up what pokemon's about well on my own with pokemon.

Maybe theres flaws in this post, i duno, but pokemon seem happy just getting stronger from facing and interacting with one another xD


----------

